From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 1 02:40:44 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed Jun 1 02:44:45 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: exegesis vs hermeneutics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429D748C.70706@xs4all.nl> Richard Hayes schreef: > > > It may astonish you and Herr Hoogscarpel that I can still say such > seemingly naive things even after reading Sophisticated Germans like > Gadamer and Nietzsche. If so, enjoy your astonishment to your heart's > content. For myself, my joy comes in doing exegesis as well as my > limitations make possible and then turning to a bit of hermeneutics > for sport. If anyone else benefits from what I do, fine. If not, tant > pis. > Not at all, Richard, I agree. I?m not in favour of a constructivist world, nor of solipsism. There has been an interesting discussion between Rorty and Eco about interpretation and the book is called ?Over interpretation? if my memory serves me right. Erik From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 1 05:27:44 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 1 05:34:48 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Message-ID: Denizens of buddha-l, The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of our times. Cordinally (and moderately) yours, Richard Hayes \begin{letter} Mr../Prof Goodman, My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he thinks the latter is fine but not the former. Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the university, the state government and any persons important in private funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different places. Sincerely yours, Mr. Lane \end{letter} From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 1 05:36:59 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 1 05:44:48 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Message-ID: Erik writes: "Not at all, Richard, I agree. I?m not in favour of a constructivist world, nor of solipsism. There has been an interesting discussion between Rorty and Eco about interpretation and the book is called ?Over interpretation? if my memory serves me right." Thanks for the lead. I find both Rorty and Eco very interesting, and since I am currently up to my ears in a project of trying to translate into English a very difficult Sanskrit text in which almost every sentence stubbornly refuses to yield its meaning without a fight, I am ripe for intelligent discussion about what is involved in interpretation. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 07:04:07 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 07:04:48 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> Denizens of buddha-l, The following letter has been sent to the chair of the hopefully ex-professor Hayes' department at his invitation. Where do you think I got the name. Since I have every e-mail in which ex-prof Hayes says these things it would be interesting to see if any of you would like to refute any points in the letter. This letter came because Hayes feels free to attack my country my religion and most other things I hold dear and in classic Marxist style refuse to post my answers. So please if you think you can refute things please go ahead. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:28 AM To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Denizens of buddha-l, The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of our times. Cordinally (and moderately) yours, Richard Hayes \begin{letter} Mr../Prof Goodman, My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he thinks the latter is fine but not the former. Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the university, the state government and any persons important in private funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different places. Sincerely yours, Mr. Lane \end{letter} _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Wed Jun 1 10:19:18 2005 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Wed Jun 1 07:14:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: exegesis vs hermeneutics References: Message-ID: <002a01c566c5$a943a3e0$7dee6480@chass> Richard, you should take comfort from the fact that even the pomo bogeyman J.Derrida would take a position very much like yours on translation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:09 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: exegesis vs hermeneutics > Christian Coseru says: "Besides, it is rather indulgent to > claim that we can read fourth or fifth century Buddhist > texts as they were read by those for whom these texts were > written: fourth and fifth century Buddhists." > > It could be said to be indulgent to try to run 100 meters > in zero seconds, but if you think about it, that's what > everyone who runs a race is trying to do. Everyone fails, > of course, but whoever comes closest to the impossible > goal is the winner of the race. > > Similarly, it goes without saying that it is impossible to > read a text exactly as it was understood by its author. > This is, nevertheless, the idea of a translator. Of course > a translator fails, but that does not mean that no one > should try his or her best to come as close humanly > possible to understand a text as its author meant it to be > understood. It takes, as you well know, a lot of very > difficult work, and the rewards of doing a good job are > mostly intangible. The main reward is probably the > enjoyment of doing something challenging. > > Having said that, I think we can say that some > translations are objectively better than others, > demonstrably more accurate and palpably less imperfect. No > one ever meets the ideal of a translation, which is to > recreate exactly the meaning of the original author, but > some scholars fails more dramatically than others. The > goal of any exegete is to fail somewhat less dramatically > than others have done. > > It may astonish you and Herr Hoogscarpel that I can still > say such seemingly naive things even after reading > Sophisticated Germans like Gadamer and Nietzsche. If so, > enjoy your astonishment to your heart's content. For > myself, my joy comes in doing exegesis as well as my > limitations make possible and then turning to a bit of > hermeneutics for sport. If anyone else benefits from what > I do, fine. If not, tant pis. > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Wed Jun 1 10:31:55 2005 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Wed Jun 1 07:34:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration References: Message-ID: <004301c566c7$6ca7f9c0$7dee6480@chass> surely this is a joke?! maybe its time to come back to canada, richard. victoria b.c. has nice weather year round. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:27 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my > department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our > friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy > the letter as an interesting sign of our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list > called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous > behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly > anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan > Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal > opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for > Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable > anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all > the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He > seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we > never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in > the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he > does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many > people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any > religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand > but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs > he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a > Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to > understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is > no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist > doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and > anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. > Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and > non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him > teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that > true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in > quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about > the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade > about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later > to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course > is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is > incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked > him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he > thinks the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have > grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of > his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist > Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists > should be teaching young people in this country any more > than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching > teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that > has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth > century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol > Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing > about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course > what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for > the names of all of your superiors in the university, the > state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his > outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people > agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not > be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny > all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L > e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 07:39:29 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 07:44:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <004301c566c7$6ca7f9c0$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <200506011339.j51DdTJB035126@taka.swcp.com> I agree I think you should go back to Canada or China or Saudia Arabia or any place you would feel more comfortable -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Gad Horowitz Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:32 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration surely this is a joke?! maybe its time to come back to canada, richard. victoria b.c. has nice weather year round. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:27 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my > department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our > friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy > the letter as an interesting sign of our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list > called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous > behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly > anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan > Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal > opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for > Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable > anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all > the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He > seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we > never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in > the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he > does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many > people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any > religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand > but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs > he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a > Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to > understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is > no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist > doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and > anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. > Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and > non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him > teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that > true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in > quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about > the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade > about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later > to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course > is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is > incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked > him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he > thinks the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have > grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of > his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist > Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists > should be teaching young people in this country any more > than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching > teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that > has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth > century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol > Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing > about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course > what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for > the names of all of your superiors in the university, the > state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his > outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people > agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not > be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny > all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L > e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 1 07:59:30 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:04:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429DBF42.9060307@cola.iges.org> Obviously the guy is a pinhead (that is, Mr. Lane - not Dr. Hayes). Nevertheless, these kinds of things shouldn't be dismissed lightly. In fact, it represents a potential threat to every person on this list. A smear attack of this sort does not rely on truth - it simply relies on throwing a sufficient amount of verbal filth around in the hopes that some of it will stick. Whether it sticks or not is also completely independent of the veracity or sanity of the accusations made. And if it does stick - then we would all be potentially guilty by association. "Are you now, or have you ever been, a subscriber to Buddha-l - a known haven of former Communists and anti-monists?" - Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. > Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my > qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of > our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. I > am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He > constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if > you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but > outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the > attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. > that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the > oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet > we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the > P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree > with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. He has ridiculed the > Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of > Buddhist thought. Mr. Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander > any religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when > somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it > or responds with a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. > From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine > which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its > non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody > slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. Hayes has no clue of > the difference between monism and non-dualism but I understand that > you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform > Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in > quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about the same. > (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about relating quantum > mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows nothing about QM > at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule > anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally > attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he thinks > the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts > about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he > described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or > former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any > more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. > After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 > million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model > is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if he > believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. To > that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the > university, the state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous > e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion > that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. > Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have > all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 08:01:09 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:04:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011339.j51DdTJB035126@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <200506011401.j51E1Ae8061592@taka.swcp.com> BTW while you're in China or Saudi Arabia you will keep to the promise you made about criticizing their murderous abuses with the same freedom from fear as you do in the U.S. I of course can dig up that e-mail in which you swear you fight evil anywhere and would do so if you were living in those countries. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Steven Lane Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:39 AM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration I agree I think you should go back to Canada or China or Saudia Arabia or any place you would feel more comfortable -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Gad Horowitz Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:32 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration surely this is a joke?! maybe its time to come back to canada, richard. victoria b.c. has nice weather year round. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:27 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. > Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my > qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of > our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. > I am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He > constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if > you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but > outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the > attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. > that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the > oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet > we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the > P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree > with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are > the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any religious > doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when somebody posts > something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it or responds with > a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. > From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine > which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its > non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody > slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. > Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and non-dualism but > I understand that you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng > and the Platform Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him > teach a course in quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is > about the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about > relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows > nothing about QM at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and > ridicule anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have > personally attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently > he thinks the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts > about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he > described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or > former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any > more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. > After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 > million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model > is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if > he believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. > To that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the > university, the state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous > e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion > that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. > Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have > all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 08:14:00 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:14:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429DBF42.9060307@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200506011414.j51EE1p0082707@taka.swcp.com> Hello Curt pinhead, Which allegation would you like me to prove with Hayes's previous e-mails. Once they are proven will you keep your mouth closed. Nobody is guilty by association people are only guilty by guilt. I am getting private e-mails totally supporting my position. Do you doubt that Hayes was a former member of the Communist party. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of curt Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:00 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Obviously the guy is a pinhead (that is, Mr. Lane - not Dr. Hayes). Nevertheless, these kinds of things shouldn't be dismissed lightly. In fact, it represents a potential threat to every person on this list. A smear attack of this sort does not rely on truth - it simply relies on throwing a sufficient amount of verbal filth around in the hopes that some of it will stick. Whether it sticks or not is also completely independent of the veracity or sanity of the accusations made. And if it does stick - then we would all be potentially guilty by association. "Are you now, or have you ever been, a subscriber to Buddha-l - a known haven of former Communists and anti-monists?" - Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. > Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my > qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of > our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. I > am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He > constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if > you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but > outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the > attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. > that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the > oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet > we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the > P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree > with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. He has ridiculed the > Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of > Buddhist thought. Mr. Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander > any religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when > somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it > or responds with a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. > From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine > which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its > non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody > slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. Hayes has no clue of > the difference between monism and non-dualism but I understand that > you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform > Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in > quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about the same. > (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about relating quantum > mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows nothing about QM > at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule > anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally > attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he thinks > the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts > about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he > described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or > former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any > more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. > After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 > million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model > is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if he > believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. To > that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the > university, the state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous > e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion > that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. > Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have > all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 08:20:31 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:24:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <002b01c566b5$11e4fae0$2930cece@charlie> > Erik writes: "Not at all, Richard, I agree. I?m not in > favour of a constructivist > world, nor of solipsism. There has been an interesting > discussion > between Rorty and Eco about interpretation and the book is > called ?Over > interpretation? if my memory serves me right." ===================== Looks like I'd better get this book, too. Joanna ======================================================== Interpretation and Overinterpretation (Tanner Lectures in Human Values) by Umberto Eco, Jonathan Culler (Contributor), Richard Rorty (Contributor), Christine Brooke-Rose (Contributor), Stefan Collini (Editor) Cambridge University Press (1992) ISBN: 0521425549 Editorial Reviews >From Library Journal Semioticist Eco and three scholars debate whether there are limits to the interpretations of a text and whether the author's intentions are relevant. Eco seeks to limit the degree to which texts can be interpreted, explains how overinterpretations can be recognized based on the intention of the work, and argues that the author of the text can rule out some interpretations. Rorty, a pragmatist, feels that texts should be able to be used for the readers' own purposes. Jonathan Culler, a literary theorist, defends "overinterpretation," and critic Christine Brook-Rose digresses slightly by discussing what she calls "palimpsest history." In the final lecture, Eco responds to Rorty's assertions. This is high-level literary theory, expressed brilliantly, appropriate primarily for academic and large public libraries. - Ann Irvine, Kensington Park Lib., Md. Copyright 1992 From brburl at mailbag.com Wed Jun 1 08:17:11 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:24:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> References: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601085022.01e55b98@mailbag.com> > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts about >the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he described >himself as a Marxist Quaker). Great googaly moogaly!!!! Richard, are you really a pinko? A commie at heart? Is Dan Lusthaus really a pinhead? -->Mine eyes have seen the horror of the coming of the Reds, They are hiding in the closets, they are hiding 'neath the beds...<-- - Mad Magazine. Geez, Steve, you state: ---"Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. " Well, then he'll get bad breath and go to hell, correct? ---"He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought." But then many Mahayanists feel it is okay to ridicule the Theravada, which many people hold is the true teaching of the Buddha, calling it hinayana, the garbage vehicle. You would not happen to be one of those, would you? But the bottom line, here, Steve, for all of Richard's many failings, you are the one looking schmuckly here. A bit like a disgruntled religious fanatic, who needs to have a bit of a thicker skin, or who simply needs to go elsewhere where he will hear what he wants. Try e-sangha. The anti-intellectual, anti-academic ethos there may be just the thing for you As Trungpa would say, Good luck to you, sir. Bruce (not a commie, but a Vietnam era Conscientious Objector who finds the present course our country objectionable, and who finds the Lotus Sutra as being an expression of the true meaning of hinayana. Are you going to write my employers? I take care of sick people. How could you possibly want me to do that when I think the Lotus Sutra sucks toenails?) From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 08:28:50 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:34:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration References: Message-ID: <003601c566b6$3b37f090$2930cece@charlie> These are indeed interesting times. This attempt to get you fired is astounding. I wonder if he's on anyone's payroll. Perhaps your university will convene a faculty Un-American Activities Committee? Joanna ============================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:27 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my > department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our > friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy > the letter as an interesting sign of our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list > called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous > behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly > anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan > Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal > opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for > Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable > anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all > the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He > seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we > never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in > the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he > does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many > people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any > religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand > but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs > he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a > Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to > understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is > no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist > doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and > anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. > Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and > non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him > teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that > true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in > quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about > the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade > about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later > to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course > is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is > incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked > him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he > thinks the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have > grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of > his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist > Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists > should be teaching young people in this country any more > than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching > teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that > has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth > century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol > Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing > about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course > what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for > the names of all of your superiors in the university, the > state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his > outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people > agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not > be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny > all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L > e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 1 08:44:19 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:44:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? In-Reply-To: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> I have organized many retreats over the years. These have been small retreats with no more than 25 people (usually more like 12 - 15), and they have either been in private homes or in rented facilities. And they have all been led by teachers who are neither especially famous nor infamous enough to attract large followings. My feeling is that people get what they are looking for. If you find a retreat advertised in Tricycle that is 1,000 miles from where you live in a retreat facility with a full-time paid staff and the retreat is led by a teacher is who is a best-selling author - you will get one kind of experience. If you find a retreat advertised on a flyer taped to a bulletin board at your local health food store that is taking place in someone's living room down the street from you led by a teacher no one has ever heard of - that will be another experience. People can easily avoid the "retreat industry" if they wish to. But our culture worships fame and success and star power. I don't think that all "famous" teachers are without value. I think the Dalai Lama uses his fame without letting it use him too much - for instance. - Curt jkirk wrote: >It's getting round to the most popular retreat time of the year, from now on >until heavy frost. This author asks a few acute questions about the value of >retreats. >I have a few observations of my own that accord with his, especially his >noting that there is now a retreat industry. Comment anyone? >Joanna > >http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=2,1242,0,0,1,0 > > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From jamesward at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 08:42:41 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:44:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011414.j51EE1p0082707@taka.swcp.com> References: <200506011414.j51EE1p0082707@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <680206AE-D2AB-11D9-817E-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Steven, Try to relax and take deep breaths... The more rational and calm you can be in this sort of situation, the better, although the momentum that has been gained to this point will tend to work against that, I expect. Try, though -- you don't have to precipitate an emotional crisis in yourself. As far as I am aware, participation in Buddha-L is not part of anyone's official university duties. Even if Richard were a former card-carrying member of the Communist Party, he would still have the right to speak -- we must continue to act as if this were the United States we formerly knew until the change is declared officially. And, as a moderator, Richard is responsible for making decisions about whether messages to the list are appropriate or not. Try to become aware now, without following all the impulses to zoom off this way and that in response. This is one of things that Buddhism can help with, as you hopefully know. Be well, James Ward On Jun 1, 2005, at 7:14 AM, Steven Lane wrote: > > Hello Curt pinhead, > > Which allegation would you like me to prove with Hayes's previous > e-mails. Once they are proven will you keep your mouth closed. Nobody > is > guilty by association people are only guilty by guilt. I am getting > private > e-mails totally supporting my position. Do you doubt that Hayes was a > former > member of the Communist party. From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 1 08:48:48 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 1 08:54:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <003601c566b6$3b37f090$2930cece@charlie> References: <003601c566b6$3b37f090$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <429DCAD0.5090803@cola.iges.org> Joanna has put her finger on it nicely. Steven Lane or anyone else can have as low an opinion of Richard Hayes or me or Mother Theresa as they like - but to mount a campaign, even a ludicrous one, to get someone fired because you don't like what they say is loathsome in the extreme. And it definitely fits in a much wider pattern. Whether he is "on someone's payroll" or not, he is definitely marching to a particular drummer. - Curt jkirk wrote: >These are indeed interesting times. >This attempt to get you fired is astounding. I wonder if he's on anyone's >payroll. >Perhaps your university will convene a faculty Un-American Activities >Committee? >Joanna >============================================ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Hayes" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:27 AM >Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > > > > >>Denizens of buddha-l, >> >>The following letter has been sent to the chair of my >>department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our >>friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy >>the letter as an interesting sign of our times. >> >>Cordinally (and moderately) yours, >>Richard Hayes >> >>\begin{letter} >>Mr../Prof Goodman, >> >> My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list >>called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous >>behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly >>anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan >>Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war >>mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal >>opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for >>Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable >>anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all >>the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He >>seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we >>never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in >>the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. >> >> Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he >>does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. >>He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many >>people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. >>Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any >>religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand >>but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs >>he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. >> >> Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a >>Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to >>understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is >>no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist >>doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not >>see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and >>anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. >>Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and >>non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him >>teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that >>true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in >>quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about >>the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade >>about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later >>to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course >>is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is >>incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked >>him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he >>thinks the latter is fine but not the former. >> >> Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have >>grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of >>his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist >>Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists >>should be teaching young people in this country any more >>than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching >>teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that >>has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth >>century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol >>Pot. >> >> Despite all of this I still would not be writing >>about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course >>what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for >>the names of all of your superiors in the university, the >>state government and any persons important in private >>funding of the university so that I may forward them his >>outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people >>agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not >>be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny >>all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L >>e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different >>places. >> >> Sincerely yours, >> Mr. Lane >>\end{letter} >>_______________________________________________ >>buddha-l mailing list >>buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >>http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Jun 1 08:57:57 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:04:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A letter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth... I have the pleasure of meeting Professor Hayes in person and I am absolutely convinced that he is no bigot. I suggest everyone calm down and not take everything on the web, including one's web persona, too seriously. W.F. Wong PS: Is this the end of BUDDHA-L? From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 09:01:14 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:04:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> > I have organized many retreats over the years. These have been > small retreats with no more than 25 people (usually more like > 12 - 15), and they have either been in private homes or in rented > facilities. And they have all been led by teachers who are neither > especially famous nor infamous enough to attract large followings. > My feeling is that people get what they are looking for. If you find > a retreat advertised in Tricycle that is 1,000 miles from where you > live in a retreat facility with a full-time paid staff and the retreat is > led by a teacher is who is a best-selling author - you will get one > kind of experience. If you find a retreat advertised on a flyer taped > to a bulletin board at your local health food store that is taking > place in someone's living room down the street from you led by > a teacher no one has ever heard of - that will be another experience. > People can easily avoid the "retreat industry" if they wish to. But > our culture worships fame and success and star power. I don't > think that all "famous" teachers are without value. I think the > Dalai Lama uses his fame without letting it use him too much - > for instance. > - Curt ==================================== Well said.......I never see any flyers at my local Coop except those posted by cultists, so the 2 retreats I was on were indeed led by published authors at places that rent space for retreats, part of the industry. These two were so beneficial to me such that I've decided no more retreats, for a while anyway. But the industry indeed flourisheth. Commodification ueber alles. Best Joanna From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 09:02:56 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:05:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <003601c566b6$3b37f090$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <200506011502.j51F2u3a055580@taka.swcp.com> Of course Joanna I work for the C.I.A. I thought you all knew that. Who else but a C.I.A. agent would object to a self admitted Communist blaming the U.S. for every world problem and having sympathy for the poor misunderstood and oppressed Al-Qaeda. In addition Hayes recently referred to the stigma of being an American. Once again only a C.I.A. operative could possibly object to that. That you could even doubt that I am an American agent is unbelievable. The people on this list are denser than I thought. I'll report this interesting development back to Langley. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of jkirk Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:29 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration These are indeed interesting times. This attempt to get you fired is astounding. I wonder if he's on anyone's payroll. Perhaps your university will convene a faculty Un-American Activities Committee? Joanna ============================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:27 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. > Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my > qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of > our times. > > Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > Richard Hayes > > \begin{letter} > Mr../Prof Goodman, > > My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. > I am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He > constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if > you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but > outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the > attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. > that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the > oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet > we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the > P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > > Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree > with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are > the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any religious > doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when somebody posts > something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it or responds with > a personal attack. > > Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. > From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine > which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its > non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody > slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. > Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and non-dualism but > I understand that you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng > and the Platform Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him > teach a course in quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is > about the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about > relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows > nothing about QM at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and > ridicule anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have > personally attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently > he thinks the latter is fine but not the former. > > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts > about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he > described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or > former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any > more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. > After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 > million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model > is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. > > Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if > he believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. > To that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the > university, the state government and any persons important in private > funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous > e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion > that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. > Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have > all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > places. > > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane > \end{letter} > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 09:12:54 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:14:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <680206AE-D2AB-11D9-817E-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200506011512.j51FCtTl070612@taka.swcp.com> James, Well this seems to be a reasonable post. However let me remind you that my original letter to Hayes' boss was not because he has these outrageous views but because he was simply not posting my replies. If he were man enough to do so I never would have written that letter. Hayes routinely denies access to responses that he doesn't agree with and I am receiving more and more private e-mails verifying this. Hayes is the one who doesn't believe in free speech not me. (What would you expect from a Marxist). -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of James Ward Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:43 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: A ltter concerning toleration Steven, Try to relax and take deep breaths... The more rational and calm you can be in this sort of situation, the better, although the momentum that has been gained to this point will tend to work against that, I expect. Try, though -- you don't have to precipitate an emotional crisis in yourself. As far as I am aware, participation in Buddha-L is not part of anyone's official university duties. Even if Richard were a former card-carrying member of the Communist Party, he would still have the right to speak -- we must continue to act as if this were the United States we formerly knew until the change is declared officially. And, as a moderator, Richard is responsible for making decisions about whether messages to the list are appropriate or not. Try to become aware now, without following all the impulses to zoom off this way and that in response. This is one of things that Buddhism can help with, as you hopefully know. Be well, James Ward On Jun 1, 2005, at 7:14 AM, Steven Lane wrote: > > Hello Curt pinhead, > > Which allegation would you like me to prove with Hayes's previous > e-mails. Once they are proven will you keep your mouth closed. Nobody > is guilty by association people are only guilty by guilt. I am getting > private e-mails totally supporting my position. Do you doubt that > Hayes was a former member of the Communist party. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 09:05:11 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:14:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601085022.01e55b98@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <200506011505.j51F5B8s059194@taka.swcp.com> Hello Mr. Bruce, I would respond but frankly I don't remember anything worthwhile that you have ever written on the list so have no worries you are simply not important enough to respond to or report to your bosses. BTW quoting Trungpa a drunk who died from his own drinking with a sidekick who knowingly spread AIDS I think that says all we need to know about you. Best of luck, Steve -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Burrill Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:17 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts >about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he >described himself as a Marxist Quaker). Great googaly moogaly!!!! Richard, are you really a pinko? A commie at heart? Is Dan Lusthaus really a pinhead? -->Mine eyes have seen the horror of the coming of the Reds, They are hiding in the closets, they are hiding 'neath the beds...<-- - Mad Magazine. Geez, Steve, you state: ---"Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. " Well, then he'll get bad breath and go to hell, correct? ---"He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought." But then many Mahayanists feel it is okay to ridicule the Theravada, which many people hold is the true teaching of the Buddha, calling it hinayana, the garbage vehicle. You would not happen to be one of those, would you? But the bottom line, here, Steve, for all of Richard's many failings, you are the one looking schmuckly here. A bit like a disgruntled religious fanatic, who needs to have a bit of a thicker skin, or who simply needs to go elsewhere where he will hear what he wants. Try e-sangha. The anti-intellectual, anti-academic ethos there may be just the thing for you As Trungpa would say, Good luck to you, sir. Bruce (not a commie, but a Vietnam era Conscientious Objector who finds the present course our country objectionable, and who finds the Lotus Sutra as being an expression of the true meaning of hinayana. Are you going to write my employers? I take care of sick people. How could you possibly want me to do that when I think the Lotus Sutra sucks toenails?) _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 1 09:21:32 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:24:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? In-Reply-To: <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> One problem is that many "big" "famous" retreat centers start out as a group of friends meditating together in each other's living rooms. But they are not satisfied with that - so they, like good Americans (warning: anti-Americanism!!!) they "dream big". "Gee, maybe we could buy some land out in the country and start our own "real" retreat center?" And so the cycle continues. Having said that, my favorite spot on planet earth is just such a place. Years and years ago a group of friends were sitting around in Lexington, KY - but that wasn't good enough for them - so they ended up buying hundreds of acres of land out in the middle of nowhere and they built a Buddhist temple there. I go there every chance I get because it is so beautiful and serene. So sometimes it works out OK, I guess. - Curt jkirk wrote: > > >>I have organized many retreats over the years. These have been >>small retreats with no more than 25 people (usually more like >>12 - 15), and they have either been in private homes or in rented >>facilities. And they have all been led by teachers who are neither >>especially famous nor infamous enough to attract large followings. >>My feeling is that people get what they are looking for. If you find >>a retreat advertised in Tricycle that is 1,000 miles from where you >>live in a retreat facility with a full-time paid staff and the retreat is >>led by a teacher is who is a best-selling author - you will get one >>kind of experience. If you find a retreat advertised on a flyer taped >>to a bulletin board at your local health food store that is taking >>place in someone's living room down the street from you led by >>a teacher no one has ever heard of - that will be another experience. >>People can easily avoid the "retreat industry" if they wish to. But >>our culture worships fame and success and star power. I don't >>think that all "famous" teachers are without value. I think the >>Dalai Lama uses his fame without letting it use him too much - >>for instance. >>- Curt >> >> >==================================== >Well said.......I never see any flyers at my local Coop except those posted >by cultists, so the 2 retreats I was on were indeed led by published authors >at places that rent space for retreats, part of the industry. These two were >so beneficial to me such that I've decided no more retreats, for a while >anyway. But the industry indeed flourisheth. >Commodification ueber alles. >Best >Joanna > > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From Jackhat1 at aol.com Wed Jun 1 08:56:39 2005 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1@aol.com) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:28:42 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Message-ID: <19e.348ef946.2fcf26a7@aol.com> In a message dated 6/1/05 9:37:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jkirk@spro.net writes: These are indeed interesting times. This attempt to get you fired is astounding. I wonder if he's on anyone's payroll. Perhaps your university will convene a faculty Un-American Activities Committee? ===== Scary stuff. The idea that someone would take something said on a list like this to try to get someone fired belongs more to a society of jackboots and goose-steps. jack -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050601/c6320097/attachment.html From gthomgt at adelphia.net Wed Jun 1 07:32:08 2005 From: gthomgt at adelphia.net (George Thompson) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:29:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: Dear List, I have no interest whatsoever in Steven Lane, his religion, his country, or anything that he holds dear. But I find his attempt at discrediting and intimidating Richard Hayes by sending this atrocious letter to Richard's dept. chair utterly appalling. We should ignore this intellectual and moral thug. I suggest that we write up and sign a petition in Richard's defense. Best wishes, George Thompson -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com]On Behalf Of Steven Lane Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:04 AM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Denizens of buddha-l, The following letter has been sent to the chair of the hopefully ex-professor Hayes' department at his invitation. Where do you think I got the name. Since I have every e-mail in which ex-prof Hayes says these things it would be interesting to see if any of you would like to refute any points in the letter. This letter came because Hayes feels free to attack my country my religion and most other things I hold dear and in classic Marxist style refuse to post my answers. So please if you think you can refute things please go ahead. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:28 AM To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Denizens of buddha-l, The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign of our times. Cordinally (and moderately) yours, Richard Hayes \begin{letter} Mr../Prof Goodman, My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he thinks the latter is fine but not the former. Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists should be teaching young people in this country any more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors in the university, the state government and any persons important in private funding of the university so that I may forward them his outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different places. Sincerely yours, Mr. Lane \end{letter} _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From esnels at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 09:27:56 2005 From: esnels at gmail.com (Eric Nelson) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:35:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429DCAD0.5090803@cola.iges.org> References: <003601c566b6$3b37f090$2930cece@charlie> <429DCAD0.5090803@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <5e00361d0506010827575723cd@mail.gmail.com> This rhetoric of "reporting people" for their views reflects two current campaigns to "purify" academia of so-called "antipatriotic" and "leftist" elements -- the one against tenure, for which Ward Churchill is the poster child, and the so called "academic bill of rights" up for approval in a number of states that would disallow professors from expressing any views that can be considered "controversial" or "biased". I have not yet heard of any bills to purify listservs. What ever happened to the idea that the US is an open and pluralistic society in which individuals can express and realize themselves in multiple ways? Eric On 6/1/05, curt wrote: > Joanna has put her finger on it nicely. Steven Lane or anyone else can > have as low an opinion of Richard Hayes or me or Mother Theresa as > they like - but to mount a campaign, even a ludicrous one, to get someone > fired because you don't like what they say is loathsome in the extreme. > And it definitely fits in a much wider pattern. Whether he is "on someone's > payroll" or not, he is definitely marching to a particular drummer. > - Curt > > jkirk wrote: > > >These are indeed interesting times. > >This attempt to get you fired is astounding. I wonder if he's on anyone's > >payroll. > >Perhaps your university will convene a faculty Un-American Activities > >Committee? > >Joanna > >============================================ > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Richard Hayes" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:27 AM > >Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > > > > > > > > > >>Denizens of buddha-l, > >> > >>The following letter has been sent to the chair of my > >>department. Perhaps others of you would like to join our > >>friend in discussing my qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy > >>the letter as an interesting sign of our times. > >> > >>Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > >>Richard Hayes > >> > >>\begin{letter} > >>Mr../Prof Goodman, > >> > >> My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list > >>called Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous > >>behavior of Richard Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly > >>anti-American posts, anti-Christian and if you believe Dan > >>Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has called Dan Lusthaus a war > >>mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is not loyal > >>opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for > >>Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable > >>anger. He has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all > >>the trouble in the world "as we are the oppressors". He > >>seemed to anticipate happily the fall of the U.S. yet we > >>never hear a peep out of him about the evils that occur in > >>the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > >> > >> Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he > >>does not agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > >>He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many > >>people feel are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > >>Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any > >>religious doctrine he does not agree with or understand > >>but when somebody posts something contrary to his beliefs > >>he either blocks it or responds with a personal attack. > >> > >> Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a > >>Buddhist scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to > >>understand one Mahayana doctrine which in and of itself is > >>no crime, however given the Mahayana and its non-dualist > >>doctrines are religious beliefs of millions I do not not > >>see any difference between his mocking non-dualism and > >>anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. Mr. > >>Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and > >>non-dualism but I understand that you will be letting him > >>teach a course on Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that > >>true? If so you might as well let him teach a course in > >>quantum mechanics as his understanding of the two is about > >>the same. (Incidentally Hayes went through a whole tirade > >>about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism only later > >>to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of course > >>is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is > >>incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked > >>him on Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he > >>thinks the latter is fine but not the former. > >> > >> Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have > >>grave doubts about the former part - I believe in one of > >>his recent e-mails he described himself as a Marxist > >>Quaker). I don't believe Communists or former Communists > >>should be teaching young people in this country any more > >>than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi teaching > >>teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that > >>has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth > >>century. I wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol > >>Pot. > >> > >> Despite all of this I still would not be writing > >>about Hayes if he believed in free speech but of course > >>what (former) Communist does. To that end I am asking for > >>the names of all of your superiors in the university, the > >>state government and any persons important in private > >>funding of the university so that I may forward them his > >>outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people > >>agree with my opinion that (former) Communists should not > >>be teaching young people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny > >>all of the above but remind him that I have all Buddha-L > >>e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three different > >>places. > >> > >> Sincerely yours, > >> Mr. Lane > >>\end{letter} > >>_______________________________________________ > >>buddha-l mailing list > >>buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > >>http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >buddha-l mailing list > >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- Eric Sean Nelson http://faculty.uml.edu/enelson/index.html From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Wed Jun 1 09:36:05 2005 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Wed Jun 1 09:44:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011502.j51F2u3a055580@taka.swcp.com> References: <200506011502.j51F2u3a055580@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <4f0ab4fd84911c4a213d1062d57ee3c5@wheelwrightassoc.com> Well brother Lane, if your approach to this issue is an 'American' trait, or even what you conceive to be the 'American Way' of expressing yourself, we're all in deep kim chee. Along with the fundamentalist attempt to take science back to the dark ages, we now have you resurrecting Tailgunner Joe's ghost for another witch hunt. Plus ?a change, eh? Damn, no wonder I feel like I'm over the hill and rolling backward. Whats next, "manchas de tinta y de cera"? Thank you for clarifying my problem, however. Denseness never occurred to me as the source of my suffering. I'll be doing my best to lighten up from here on out. You might try it too! Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050601/0699214b/attachment.bin From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 10:00:31 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:04:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <5e00361d0506010827575723cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200506011600.j51G0WUd044421@taka.swcp.com> Apparently most of you left on this list have some problem reading. I only sent that letter because Hayes refused to post my replies. He is the one who is restricting academic freedom. Anyway your opinions matter little. It's the people who pay the tuition who count and I suspect once they find out what Hayes has been posting (I'll see to that) they'll do what they want. Unless of course you don't think parents and others who pay tuition should have any say about what is taught to them and their kids. Most of you probably think only radical leftwing academics deserve freedom to express themselves. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Eric Nelson Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:28 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration This rhetoric of "reporting people" for their views reflects two current campaigns to "purify" academia of so-called "antipatriotic" and "leftist" elements -- the one against tenure, for which Ward Churchill is the poster child, and the so called "academic bill of rights" up for approval in a number of states that would disallow professors from expressing any views that can be considered "controversial" or "biased". I have not yet heard of any bills to purify listservs. What ever happened to the idea that the US is an open and pluralistic society in which individuals can express and realize themselves in multiple ways? Eric On 6/1/05, curt wrote: > Joanna has put her finger on it nicely. Steven Lane or anyone else can > have as low an opinion of Richard Hayes or me or Mother Theresa as > they like - but to mount a campaign, even a ludicrous one, to get > someone fired because you don't like what they say is loathsome in the extreme. > And it definitely fits in a much wider pattern. Whether he is "on > someone's payroll" or not, he is definitely marching to a particular drummer. > - Curt > > jkirk wrote: > > >These are indeed interesting times. > >This attempt to get you fired is astounding. I wonder if he's on > >anyone's payroll. > >Perhaps your university will convene a faculty Un-American Activities > >Committee? > >Joanna > >============================================ > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Richard Hayes" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:27 AM > >Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration > > > > > > > > > >>Denizens of buddha-l, > >> > >>The following letter has been sent to the chair of my department. > >>Perhaps others of you would like to join our friend in discussing my > >>qualifications. Otherwise, enjoy the letter as an interesting sign > >>of our times. > >> > >>Cordinally (and moderately) yours, > >>Richard Hayes > >> > >>\begin{letter} > >>Mr../Prof Goodman, > >> > >> My name is Mr. Lane and I am a member of of list called > >>Buddha-L. I am writing about the outrageous behavior of Richard > >>Hayes. He constantly posts rabidly anti-American posts, > >>anti-Christian and if you believe Dan Lusthaus anti-Jewish. He has > >>called Dan Lusthaus a war mongering pinhead. His anti-Americanism is > >>not loyal opposition but outright treason. He blamed the U.S. for > >>Sept 11 justifying the attacks as the result justifiable anger. He > >>has said it is the U.S. that is the cause of all the trouble in the > >>world "as we are the oppressors". He seemed to anticipate happily > >>the fall of the U.S. yet we never hear a peep out of him about the > >>evils that occur in the P.R.C or the Islamic counties. > >> > >> Mr.. Hayes constantly belittles Buddhist sutras he does not > >>agree with (the Lotus Sutra) and feels it is O.K. > >>He has ridiculed the Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai which many people feel > >>are the highest level of Buddhist thought. Mr. > >>Hayes feels it is totally appropriate to slander any religious > >>doctrine he does not agree with or understand but when somebody > >>posts something contrary to his beliefs he either blocks it or > >>responds with a personal attack. > >> > >> Mr. Hayes is a translator but fancies himself a Buddhist > >>scholar. From what I have seen he has yet to understand one Mahayana > >>doctrine which in and of itself is no crime, however given the > >>Mahayana and its non-dualist doctrines are religious beliefs of > >>millions I do not not see any difference between his mocking > >>non-dualism and anybody slandering Christianity. Judaism or Islam. > >>Mr. > >>Hayes has no clue of the difference between monism and non-dualism > >>but I understand that you will be letting him teach a course on > >>Hui-Neng and the Platform Sutra, is that true? If so you might as > >>well let him teach a course in quantum mechanics as his > >>understanding of the two is about the same. (Incidentally Hayes went > >>through a whole tirade about relating quantum mechanics and Buddhism > >>only later to admit he knows nothing about QM at all). This of > >>course is classic Hayes M.O. try and ridicule anything he is > >>incapable of understanding. Yes I have personally attacked him on > >>Buddha-L as he has attacked me. Apparently he thinks the latter is > >>fine but not the former. > >> > >> Mr. Hayes is a self professed former Communist (I have grave > >>doubts about the former part - I believe in one of his recent > >>e-mails he described himself as a Marxist Quaker). I don't believe > >>Communists or former Communists should be teaching young people in > >>this country any more than I would accept a Nazi or former Nazi > >>teaching teaching them. After all we are talking about a party that > >>has slaughtered over 100 million people in the twentieth century. I > >>wonder who his role model is Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. > >> > >> Despite all of this I still would not be writing about Hayes if > >>he believed in free speech but of course what (former) Communist > >>does. To that end I am asking for the names of all of your superiors > >>in the university, the state government and any persons important in > >>private funding of the university so that I may forward them his > >>outrageous e-mails. I think we should see if these people agree with > >>my opinion that (former) Communists should not be teaching young > >>people. Mr. Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind > >>him that I have all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in > >>three different places. > >> > >> Sincerely yours, > >> Mr. Lane > >>\end{letter} > >>_______________________________________________ > >>buddha-l mailing list > >>buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > >>http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >buddha-l mailing list > >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- Eric Sean Nelson http://faculty.uml.edu/enelson/index.html _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu Wed Jun 1 09:15:44 2005 From: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu (Peter D. Junger) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:14:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:27:56 EDT." <5e00361d0506010827575723cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200506011515.j51FFiSj015102@samsara.law.cwru.edu> I am afraid that at times Richard can be a little cruel. He is away from the list for a week or so and apparently decided before he left not to continue the practice of filtering out messages from Lane when Lane went flaming out of control. And he even facilitated Lane's sending a flame to the chairman of his department, which is hardly likely in any way to damage Richard's position, but does show how ridiculous Lane can be. I fear that a more compasionate person than Richard would have continued the practice of filtering Lane's messages so as to prevent Lane from so damaging his own reputation. I can, however, understand how Richard gave in to the temptation of allowing Lane free run of the list. This is, of course, not the end of Buddha-Hell. I think that we should all muster as much compassion as we can for Lane---which for most of us would involve ignoring his posts---and continuing discussing matters with some relation to Buddhism as we were doing before Richard let Lane make such a fool out of himself. May all beings be happy! -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu From mike at lamrim.org.uk Wed Jun 1 10:16:27 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:24:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Richard Hayes writes >Mr. Hayes will of course deny all of the above but remind him that I >have all Buddha-L e-mails going back to 1998 backed up in three >different places. > Sincerely yours, > Mr. Lane May all beings be liberated from their backups. -- Metta Mike Austin From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 10:17:34 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:24:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org><00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <000c01c566c5$6bea39f0$2930cece@charlie> Hey Curt, Please tell us where this lovely place is ---Maybe they don't advertise in Trycycle! Joanna ===================== friends were sitting around in Lexington, KY - but > that wasn't good enough for them - so they ended up buying hundreds > of acres of land out in the middle of nowhere and they built a Buddhist > temple there. I go there every chance I get because it is so beautiful > and serene. So sometimes it works out OK, I guess. > - Curt > > jkirk wrote: From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 10:23:33 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:24:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011515.j51FFiSj015102@samsara.law.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <200506011623.j51GNYDw081748@taka.swcp.com> Apparently you feel anything on this list can hurt my reputation. All the true scholars of Buddhism left this list long ago. What's left are only ageing leftwing morons who can't get their heads out of the 60's or their own asses. It perfectly within my right to forward all of Hayes posts to whomever I feel. Do you deny me that freedom. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Peter D. Junger Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:16 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration I am afraid that at times Richard can be a little cruel. He is away from the list for a week or so and apparently decided before he left not to continue the practice of filtering out messages from Lane when Lane went flaming out of control. And he even facilitated Lane's sending a flame to the chairman of his department, which is hardly likely in any way to damage Richard's position, but does show how ridiculous Lane can be. I fear that a more compasionate person than Richard would have continued the practice of filtering Lane's messages so as to prevent Lane from so damaging his own reputation. I can, however, understand how Richard gave in to the temptation of allowing Lane free run of the list. This is, of course, not the end of Buddha-Hell. I think that we should all muster as much compassion as we can for Lane---which for most of us would involve ignoring his posts---and continuing discussing matters with some relation to Buddhism as we were doing before Richard let Lane make such a fool out of himself. May all beings be happy! -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 1 10:27:51 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:34:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011515.j51FFiSj015102@samsara.law.cwru.edu> References: <200506011515.j51FFiSj015102@samsara.law.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <429DE207.3060203@cola.iges.org> I pray to various Buddhist and not-so-Buddhist Gods that you are right. But it gets harder to tell all the time. Yesterday W. accused Amnesty International of "disassembling". How is one supposed to distinguish the dangerous dimwits from the ones that can be safely ignored? - Curt Peter D. Junger wrote: >This is, of course, not the end of Buddha-Hell. I think that we >should all muster as much compassion as we can for Lane---which >for most of us would involve ignoring his posts---and continuing >discussing matters with some relation to Buddhism as we were doing >before Richard let Lane make such a fool out of himself. > > From A.Fort at tcu.edu Wed Jun 1 10:39:18 2005 From: A.Fort at tcu.edu (Fort, Andrew) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:44:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lane letter Message-ID: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC87BFBD@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> As much as I don't want to get involved with this, Lane's last post riled me sufficiently to respond. Mr. Lane seems to mistake what is appropriate in the classroom with what is appropriate on an on-line forum for scholars and others interested in Buddhism. My politics track closely with Richard's, but that's not what the university employs me for, so that's not what I teach. I have more conversative colleagues who teach as I do, but vent to different audiences than I do. But, hey, I'm part of what the Bush team contempuously calls the "reality based" community. Andy Fort From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 10:39:35 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:44:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429DE207.3060203@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200506011639.j51GdZr9006907@taka.swcp.com> I think you can be safely ignored. You don't seem like a very dangerous dimwit as you have yet to make one salient point. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of curt Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:28 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration I pray to various Buddhist and not-so-Buddhist Gods that you are right. But it gets harder to tell all the time. Yesterday W. accused Amnesty International of "disassembling". How is one supposed to distinguish the dangerous dimwits from the ones that can be safely ignored? - Curt Peter D. Junger wrote: >This is, of course, not the end of Buddha-Hell. I think that we should >all muster as much compassion as we can for Lane---which for most of us >would involve ignoring his posts---and continuing discussing matters >with some relation to Buddhism as we were doing before Richard let Lane >make such a fool out of himself. > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 10:53:29 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:54:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lane letter In-Reply-To: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC87BFBD@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> Message-ID: <200506011653.j51GrUK0027310@taka.swcp.com> If it's appropriate for hayes to post the U.S. is the worst country in the world and responsible for all the worlds problems than it is appropriate for me to forward all of the posts to people who fund the university. Why would freedom loving democrats like yourselves have any problem with this. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Fort, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:39 PM To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] Lane letter As much as I don't want to get involved with this, Lane's last post riled me sufficiently to respond. Mr. Lane seems to mistake what is appropriate in the classroom with what is appropriate on an on-line forum for scholars and others interested in Buddhism. My politics track closely with Richard's, but that's not what the university employs me for, so that's not what I teach. I have more conversative colleagues who teach as I do, but vent to different audiences than I do. But, hey, I'm part of what the Bush team contempuously calls the "reality based" community. Andy Fort _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 10:55:08 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 11:04:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lane letter In-Reply-To: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC87BFBD@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> Message-ID: <200506011655.j51Gt9to029483@taka.swcp.com> In fact I'm doing hayes a favor by making sure his views have a wider audience. Hayes you can thank me later -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Fort, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:39 PM To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] Lane letter As much as I don't want to get involved with this, Lane's last post riled me sufficiently to respond. Mr. Lane seems to mistake what is appropriate in the classroom with what is appropriate on an on-line forum for scholars and others interested in Buddhism. My politics track closely with Richard's, but that's not what the university employs me for, so that's not what I teach. I have more conversative colleagues who teach as I do, but vent to different audiences than I do. But, hey, I'm part of what the Bush team contempuously calls the "reality based" community. Andy Fort _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From tccahill at loyno.edu Wed Jun 1 11:41:47 2005 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Wed Jun 1 11:44:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A letter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <19e.348ef946.2fcf26a7@aol.com> References: <19e.348ef946.2fcf26a7@aol.com> Message-ID: > ===== > Scary stuff. The idea that someone would take something said on a list like > this to try to get someone fired belongs more to a society of jackboots and > goose-steps. I'm not really sure what a society of jackboots and goose-steps looks like. But I do know that some of our colleagues in religious studies face some pretty well-organized, and well-financed 'counterparts'. See: http://www.campus-watch.org/ If some want to use this list to let off a little steam, so be it. (Isn't that why Al Gore invented the internet, after all?) And if others want to write letters to dept. chairs, so be it! (Isn't that why Al Gore invented the U.S. postal service...?) Those who have to deal with the machinations of "Campus Watch" on the other hand, have something to deal with, IMHO. best, Tim Cahill From SJZiobro at cs.com Wed Jun 1 12:06:48 2005 From: SJZiobro at cs.com (SJZiobro@cs.com) Date: Wed Jun 1 12:14:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter Message-ID: <634367DA.09C07DBC.007A239A@cs.com> "Fort, Andrew" wrote: >As much as I don't want to get involved with this, Lane's last post riled me sufficiently to respond. ?Mr. Lane seems to mistake what is appropriate in the classroom with what is appropriate on an on-line forum for scholars and others interested in Buddhism. ?My politics track closely with Richard's, but that's not what the university employs me for, so that's not what I teach. ?I have more conversative colleagues who teach as I do, but vent to different audiences than I do.< This is a reasonable view. ?On the other hand, Steve's main complaint is that many of his posts responding to political remarks by Richard or other liberally minded posters were not sent to the list. ?It is reasonable to expect that they would be, if only to give all posters an equal voice. ?So, I would encourage Richard to rethink his criteria for (1)allowing liberal remarks to go unchallanged while (2) disallowing (more) conservative responses to those remarks. ?I encourage Steve to reconsider his present course of action since (1) he has forcefully and clearly made his point which, again, I think is also reasonable, and (2) people are entitled to their good name, which it is wrong to harm. Regards, Stan Ziobro From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 1 12:13:01 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed Jun 1 12:14:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? In-Reply-To: <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> curt schreef: > One problem is that many "big" "famous" retreat centers start out > as a group of friends meditating together in each other's living rooms. > But they are not satisfied with that - so they, like good Americans > (warning: anti-Americanism!!!) they "dream big". "Gee, maybe we > could buy some land out in the country and start our own "real" > retreat center?" And so the cycle continues. Having said that, my > favorite spot on planet earth is just such a place. Years and years > ago a group of friends were sitting around in Lexington, KY - but > that wasn't good enough for them - so they ended up buying hundreds > of acres of land out in the middle of nowhere and they built a Buddhist > temple there. I go there every chance I get because it is so beautiful > and serene. So sometimes it works out OK, I guess. > - Curt > Well, I used to run a small meditationcentre and we had soem famous people, like Sogyal, Namkhai Norbu, Kalu, Akong, zemnonks from JApan and Vipassanateachers from Thailand. And it was rocking. There was close and informal contact with teachers and we used to teach them how to ride a bike. In the big centres there was always trouble and arguments. Another thing was the business went sour when the house was bought and money came in. The first ones to run after the money where the teachers however. Especially the Tibetans wnated to by land and build stupas everwhere. Erik From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 1 12:30:27 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 1 12:34:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? In-Reply-To: <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> Small is beautiful. Power corrupts. Money is the root of all evil. But seriously - I know from my own experience that having a retreat center on a big chunk of land way out in the middle of nowhere can be a great thing. It isn't inevitable that it will get messed up - but it does seem to be quite likely - unfortunately. - Curt Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Well, I used to run a small meditationcentre and we had soem famous > people, like Sogyal, Namkhai Norbu, Kalu, Akong, zemnonks from JApan > and Vipassanateachers from Thailand. And it was rocking. There was > close and informal contact with teachers and we used to teach them how > to ride a bike. In the big centres there was always trouble and > arguments. Another thing was the business went sour when the house was > bought and money came in. The first ones to run after the money where > the teachers however. Especially the Tibetans wnated to by land and > build stupas everwhere. > Erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 1 12:36:02 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed Jun 1 12:44:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> References: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <429E0012.1060309@xs4all.nl> Steven Lane schreef: >Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of the hopefully >ex-professor Hayes' department at his invitation. Where do you think I got >the name. Since I have every e-mail in which ex-prof Hayes says these things >it would be interesting to see if any of you would like to refute any points >in the letter. This letter came because Hayes feels free to attack my >country my religion and most other things I hold dear and in classic Marxist >style refuse to post my answers. So please if you think you can refute >things please go ahead. > >- > Dear Lane Rinpoche, thank you for restoring my belief in re?ncarnation. I never thought it possible for two persons Joseph McCarthy and Edgar J. Hoover to re?ncarnate in the same person. You must be a great yogi of Shugden. Keep up the good work. Let the devils burn at the stake. It's such a long time we didn't burn anybody and you see how people degenerate. Like Nostrodamus said Mr. Hayes no doubt caused the gay marriages and Osama Bin Laden, the loss of the Red Socks and Saddam Hussein. And in his former life he undoubtedly caused Hitler too. Thrive a wooden pin through his heart, soak him in garlic or make him president. Erik From clasqm at mweb.co.za Wed Jun 1 13:10:39 2005 From: clasqm at mweb.co.za (Michel Clasquin) Date: Wed Jun 1 13:14:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011623.j51GNYDw081748@taka.swcp.com> References: <200506011623.j51GNYDw081748@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <429E082F.6090300@mweb.co.za> Steven Lane wrote: > Apparently you feel anything on this list can hurt my reputation. All the > true scholars of Buddhism left this list long ago. What's left are only > ageing leftwing morons who can't get their heads out of the 60's The 60's? I have heard of them. But I was in grade school at the time. So I guess that makes me a non-ageing leftwing moron. > or their > own asses. Such mature, well-considered reflections ... >It perfectly within my right to forward all of Hayes posts to > whomever I feel. Do you deny me that freedom. Why would anyone deny you the freedom to make a fool of yourself in public and prove to the entire world that Richard Hayes is correct, that your country really is becoming the world centre of hate-mongering fanatics? However, you may want to talk to a lawyer about the concept "crimen injuria". Yes, those are big words and they are in Latin. It means that Richard can now sue you for every cent you own. I believe you do still have a legal system of sorts over there. -- "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 13:14:32 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 13:14:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429E0012.1060309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200506011914.j51JEXCs037258@taka.swcp.com> Erik, Why don't you address my points. I am simply passing hayes' posts to the decision makers. Would you deny me the freedom to do this. Hayes should be thankful as now his views will have a wider presentation than they would have before. BTW very clever writing "Lane Rinpoche" you're a natural, where did you get your degree a matchbook cover. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:36 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Steven Lane schreef: >Denizens of buddha-l, > > The following letter has been sent to the chair of the hopefully >ex-professor Hayes' department at his invitation. Where do you think I >got the name. Since I have every e-mail in which ex-prof Hayes says >these things it would be interesting to see if any of you would like to >refute any points in the letter. This letter came because Hayes feels >free to attack my country my religion and most other things I hold dear >and in classic Marxist style refuse to post my answers. So please if >you think you can refute things please go ahead. > >- > Dear Lane Rinpoche, thank you for restoring my belief in re?ncarnation. I never thought it possible for two persons Joseph McCarthy and Edgar J. Hoover to re?ncarnate in the same person. You must be a great yogi of Shugden. Keep up the good work. Let the devils burn at the stake. It's such a long time we didn't burn anybody and you see how people degenerate. Like Nostrodamus said Mr. Hayes no doubt caused the gay marriages and Osama Bin Laden, the loss of the Red Socks and Saddam Hussein. And in his former life he undoubtedly caused Hitler too. Thrive a wooden pin through his heart, soak him in garlic or make him president. Erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 13:21:49 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 13:24:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter In-Reply-To: <634367DA.09C07DBC.007A239A@cs.com> Message-ID: <200506011921.j51JLoVv046751@taka.swcp.com> Stan, This is a very thoughtful a reasonable post. Thank you. You should know however that Hayes was warned on many occasions to stop blocking my posts. He responded with his usual, trying to be clever but failing, mocking remarks. My actions only came after the self styled dictator Hayes, who is a legend in his own mind, consistently suppressed opinions he didn't want to hear. None of this would have happened if Hayes had been man enough to tolerate dissent. He was not. This is what the ultra left wing fundamentalists on this list refuse to listen to. Then again what would anyone expect from ultra left wing fundamentalists. They are true to their own history. Steve -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of SJZiobro@cs.com Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:07 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter "Fort, Andrew" wrote: >As much as I don't want to get involved with this, Lane's last post >riled me sufficiently to respond. ?Mr. Lane seems to mistake what is >appropriate in the classroom with what is appropriate on an on-line >forum for scholars and others interested in Buddhism. ?My politics >track closely with Richard's, but that's not what the university >employs me for, so that's not what I teach. ?I have more conversative >colleagues who teach as I do, but vent to different audiences than I >do.< This is a reasonable view. ?On the other hand, Steve's main complaint is that many of his posts responding to political remarks by Richard or other liberally minded posters were not sent to the list. ?It is reasonable to expect that they would be, if only to give all posters an equal voice. ?So, I would encourage Richard to rethink his criteria for (1)allowing liberal remarks to go unchallanged while (2) disallowing (more) conservative responses to those remarks. ?I encourage Steve to reconsider his present course of action since (1) he has forcefully and clearly made his point which, again, I think is also reasonable, and (2) people are entitled to their good name, which it is wrong to harm. Regards, Stan Ziobro _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From brburl at mailbag.com Wed Jun 1 14:08:33 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:14:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011505.j51F5B8s059194@taka.swcp.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601085022.01e55b98@mailbag.com> <200506011505.j51F5B8s059194@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601145908.03deae28@mailbag.com> At 10:05 AM 6/1/2005, you wrote: > Hello Mr. Bruce, > > I would respond but frankly I don't remember anything worthwhile that you >have ever written on the list so have no worries you are simply not >important enough to respond to or report to your bosses. Gosh, Steve, I'd say the same about your msgs which after having read a few I'd tend to skip because of lack of content that went beyond a sad literalist dogmatism. But keep up the goofy-assed, cranky replies. It only serves to undercut any complaint you may make by exposaing you for what you are. From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 14:13:05 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:14:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429E082F.6090300@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <200506012013.j51KD8ea021656@taka.swcp.com> You must still be in grade school considering the factual content of your e-mail. Far left wing fundamentalists never actually make any points they just attack with moronic rhetoric. Congratulations on upholding your tradition. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Michel Clasquin Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:11 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Steven Lane wrote: > Apparently you feel anything on this list can hurt my reputation. All > the true scholars of Buddhism left this list long ago. What's left are > only ageing leftwing morons who can't get their heads out of the 60's The 60's? I have heard of them. But I was in grade school at the time. So I guess that makes me a non-ageing leftwing moron. > or their > own asses. Such mature, well-considered reflections ... >It perfectly within my right to forward all of Hayes posts to whomever >I feel. Do you deny me that freedom. Why would anyone deny you the freedom to make a fool of yourself in public and prove to the entire world that Richard Hayes is correct, that your country really is becoming the world centre of hate-mongering fanatics? However, you may want to talk to a lawyer about the concept "crimen injuria". Yes, those are big words and they are in Latin. It means that Richard can now sue you for every cent you own. I believe you do still have a legal system of sorts over there. -- "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 14:16:57 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:24:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429E082F.6090300@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <200506012016.j51KGw3x027421@taka.swcp.com> After having checked I believe I can now sue you for every cent you own. Have a nice day, -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Michel Clasquin Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:11 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Steven Lane wrote: > Apparently you feel anything on this list can hurt my reputation. All > the true scholars of Buddhism left this list long ago. What's left are > only ageing leftwing morons who can't get their heads out of the 60's The 60's? I have heard of them. But I was in grade school at the time. So I guess that makes me a non-ageing leftwing moron. > or their > own asses. Such mature, well-considered reflections ... >It perfectly within my right to forward all of Hayes posts to whomever >I feel. Do you deny me that freedom. Why would anyone deny you the freedom to make a fool of yourself in public and prove to the entire world that Richard Hayes is correct, that your country really is becoming the world centre of hate-mongering fanatics? However, you may want to talk to a lawyer about the concept "crimen injuria". Yes, those are big words and they are in Latin. It means that Richard can now sue you for every cent you own. I believe you do still have a legal system of sorts over there. -- "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 14:34:35 2005 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:34:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter In-Reply-To: <200506011921.j51JLoVv046751@taka.swcp.com> References: <200506011921.j51JLoVv046751@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: Steve Lane et al., Oh, how I wanted this all to dry up and blow away! As it seems it won't, since Richard has decided the best policy is to let Steve Lane post, let me add a constructive thought or two. First, Steve, Richard is now letting you post; your prior claims against him may or may not be valid, but they clearly don't apply any longer. You may want to pursue your vendetta against Richard--though I fear you will only earn the laughter of his departmental chair--but you now have no case against this list and no reason to trouble us all with your continued off-topic posts. Please stop, immediately, and write about Buddhism, like the rest of us, once this thread is exhausted (which I pray will be soon). Second, while I agree with you that it is inappropriate for Richard or any other moderator to suppress cogent and germane posts simply due to their political content, it *is* appropriate for any moderator to suppress badly argued, ad hominem, crude, or simply careless posts. I advise you to be on your guard to insure your posts do not fall into any of these categories. And lest you think I am condescending to you, let me assure you I *always* am on guard against my posts being any of these things. We're all in this, together (buddha-l, America, this saha world, etc.). Sorry this post wasn't funny. This whole damn thread is emphatically not funny. Not to any American paying attention to the climate of the country. (Thanks, Timothy Cahill, for that link to CampusWatch. Yipes!) Franz Metcalf From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 14:30:24 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:34:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601145908.03deae28@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <200506012030.j51KUP1l045762@taka.swcp.com> Apparently you feel my posts are extremely meaningful and important since you keep responding to them. Thank you. Steve -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Burrill Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:09 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration At 10:05 AM 6/1/2005, you wrote: > Hello Mr. Bruce, > > I would respond but frankly I don't remember anything worthwhile >that you have ever written on the list so have no worries you are >simply not important enough to respond to or report to your bosses. Gosh, Steve, I'd say the same about your msgs which after having read a few I'd tend to skip because of lack of content that went beyond a sad literalist dogmatism. But keep up the goofy-assed, cranky replies. It only serves to undercut any complaint you may make by exposaing you for what you are. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From brburl at mailbag.com Wed Jun 1 14:52:20 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:54:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506012030.j51KUP1l045762@taka.swcp.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601145908.03deae28@mailbag.com> <200506012030.j51KUP1l045762@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601154451.01e8b440@mailbag.com> Steve, Now, this is an example of your reasoning powers. Previous to this posting, I only have ever responded to one other your post, which was addressed directly to me, and before that, I responded to Richard, the Terrible's, posting of your goofy-assed letter. So, it would not be reasonable to assume what I feel about the importance of your posts based that. If you were to ask, however, if I felt your posts were important, I'd say no. The postings of yours that I have read have been whiny, complaining, and witless (and continue to be so). Bruce From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 14:49:30 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 14:55:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506012049.j51KnV8U071386@taka.swcp.com> Yes Franz, My posts are now going through and therefore I have not been attacking Richard only the sub-intellects who keep posting about something that is really none of their business. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Franz Metcalf Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:35 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter Steve Lane et al., Oh, how I wanted this all to dry up and blow away! As it seems it won't, since Richard has decided the best policy is to let Steve Lane post, let me add a constructive thought or two. First, Steve, Richard is now letting you post; your prior claims against him may or may not be valid, but they clearly don't apply any longer. You may want to pursue your vendetta against Richard--though I fear you will only earn the laughter of his departmental chair--but you now have no case against this list and no reason to trouble us all with your continued off-topic posts. Please stop, immediately, and write about Buddhism, like the rest of us, once this thread is exhausted (which I pray will be soon). Second, while I agree with you that it is inappropriate for Richard or any other moderator to suppress cogent and germane posts simply due to their political content, it *is* appropriate for any moderator to suppress badly argued, ad hominem, crude, or simply careless posts. I advise you to be on your guard to insure your posts do not fall into any of these categories. And lest you think I am condescending to you, let me assure you I *always* am on guard against my posts being any of these things. We're all in this, together (buddha-l, America, this saha world, etc.). Sorry this post wasn't funny. This whole damn thread is emphatically not funny. Not to any American paying attention to the climate of the country. (Thanks, Timothy Cahill, for that link to CampusWatch. Yipes!) Franz Metcalf _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From steven505 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 15:05:52 2005 From: steven505 at earthlink.net (Steven Lane) Date: Wed Jun 1 15:14:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601154451.01e8b440@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <200506012105.j51L5rBm094176@taka.swcp.com> Yet you keep responding. Again you must be giving awesome weight to my words and again thank you. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Burrill Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:52 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration Steve, Now, this is an example of your reasoning powers. Previous to this posting, I only have ever responded to one other your post, which was addressed directly to me, and before that, I responded to Richard, the Terrible's, posting of your goofy-assed letter. So, it would not be reasonable to assume what I feel about the importance of your posts based that. If you were to ask, however, if I felt your posts were important, I'd say no. The postings of yours that I have read have been whiny, complaining, and witless (and continue to be so). Bruce _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz Wed Jun 1 16:07:50 2005 From: s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz (Sally McAra) Date: Wed Jun 1 16:15:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc In-Reply-To: <429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> <429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> curt wrote: > Small is beautiful. Power corrupts. Money is the root of all evil. > But seriously - I know from my own experience that having a > retreat center on a big chunk of land way out in the middle of > nowhere can be a great thing. It isn't inevitable that it will get > messed up - but it does seem to be quite likely - unfortunately. > - Curt The development of Buddhist retreat centres is something I'm fascinated by, especially as I'm working on a book manuscript about one in NZ, and my PhD thesis also relates to that indirectly... I have certainly noticed that here in NZ, as well as in Australia, Buddhist centres are really struggling, and the fees they charge for accommodation etc don't do anything more than cover costs. the ones I'm aware of do not make a profit. However, there are some centres that have very ambitious projects for which they engage in elaborate fundraising schemes. I've heard the complaint made of various tibetan buddhist dharma centres around the world, that one gets bombarded with leaflets etc requesting money for this or that statue, stupa, temple etc. It is amazing to see on the internet, elaborate places like Odiyan in California. Incredibly elaborate and expensive buildings! But also beautiful, at least according to some tastes. This reminds me, a follower of Tibetan Buddhism told me that if one understands Emptiness one will understand why the lamas want so many holy objects built. He related a story about the diversion of a large donation (originally intended to support monks' education and health) that ended up being used to build stupas at the monastery. The moral of the story was, according to the guy who told me, that we mere unenlightened ones don't understand, but the lamas understand Emptiness and that this really was, wiht this realisation, the most beneficial thing to do with the money, for all sentient beings (elsewhere I am familiar with the argument that holy objects make a "beneficial imprint" on one's mindstream). Big buildings and monuments rather than supporting the studies of monks and nuns. Hmmm. With my limited view, I find it hard to understand why the support of students (potential teachers) of buddhism was less important than these stupas. But that is the thing that really interests me, too. I'm sure my own cultural conditionings affect how I see this! I'm trying to be open to things that I might not understand, rather than just writing it off. This is something I wrote about in an earlier post about being "ambivalent" about big temples etc... trying, at least for a moment or two, to be shed my own biases, and see it in terms of the people who are carrying out these projects. This may be futile, seeing as there's not a lot of hope of my realising Emptiness in the course of my research. Can anyone familiar with this school of thought explain this concept of why "emptiness" justifies the construction of stupas, mega prayer wheels etc (whether or not they agree)? Cheers Sally McAra PhD candidate Department of Anthropology The University of Auckland Private Bag 92019 Auckland 1001 New Zealand http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/ant/Student%20Details/StudentPages/SallyMcara.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 1 16:17:04 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 1 16:25:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter In-Reply-To: <634367DA.09C07DBC.007A239A@cs.com> References: <634367DA.09C07DBC.007A239A@cs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:06:48 -0400 SJZiobro@cs.com wrote: > This is a reasonable view. On the other hand, Steve's >main complaint is that many of his posts responding to >political remarks by Richard or other liberally minded >posters were not sent to the list. It is reasonable to >expect that they would be, if only to give all posters an >equal voice. This is now and always has been the policy on buddha-l. No message is ever rejected because any of the moderators disagree with the opinions expressed in it. Very few messages are rejected for any reason at all, unless they violate the guidelines of decorum and courtesy that have are publicly posted. I'm even pretty lenient about that, since I myself am often aggressive and have been perceived by some as rude. I would strongly urge everyone not to bother with this issue. My departmental chairman is out of town and has no time to deal with a flood of letters. He knows what I teach in the classroom, because we has attended some of the courses I have taught, and we get extensive comments from students. He can sort out what I teach in the classroom from what I say on the Internet. Most of the politicians in the state of New Mexico are quite familiar with my views, since I write to them regularly. So I am in no need of being defended, but I do appreciate people's concern. May I suggest buddha-l now we returned to the purpose for which it is intended: the discussion of buddhism. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From bsimon at toad.net Wed Jun 1 16:44:38 2005 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:40:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter Message-ID: <9d7fd530709c31451f19c9cc3de3bcb2@toad.net> Threatening people who post on the Internet by sending messages to their employers is as old as Usenet. Netiquette forbids it, but who pays attention to that any more? As I recall, the next step up is, "I'm going to catch a plane so I can beat you up." Used to be a popular response on rec.martial-arts. ---- I want to be stereotyped I want to be classified http://carelesshand.net From c_castell at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 11:25:59 2005 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:41:36 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20050601172600.84058.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> To Stephen Lane: I don't understand why are you so mad at Richard.......it is actually very difficult to tolerate your absence of any kind of autocritics and lack of humor, and I guess you represent the kind of people that any country will be not happy to be defended by ........ Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050601/9f340935/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 17:20:31 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:42:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie><429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001901c56700$81c88430$2930cece@charlie> Especially the Tibetans wnated to by land and build stupas everwhere. > > Erik ============== Funnily enough, the same thing has happened, and is still happening, here. JK From Nyigmu at wmconnect.com Wed Jun 1 13:34:22 2005 From: Nyigmu at wmconnect.com (Nyigmu@wmconnect.com) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:51:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats? Message-ID: <1c2.29c9994c.2fcf67be@wmconnect.com> In a message dated 6/1/2005 12:20:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, jehms@xs4all.nl writes: > The first ones to run after the money where the teachers however. > Especially the Tibetans wnated to by land and build stupas everwhere. > Yes and as its said that in a land with many stupas the people turn peaceful. There are over 50 stupas in this rocky mountain area alone. And more rising every day. And as it is a visual symbolic representation for the three kayas how could it not plant good seeds? In light of how easy it is for us to verbally and physically harm each other...realativisticly is this not a good thing? The demons have always been perceived as the ones bent on warefare and destruction of others no matter what their rational. And in case you haven't noticed what the Tibetans are up to is pretty amazing, they are establishing monastaries and teaching colleges across the nation, something that in this and all times requires patronage. I was just at Crestone Co. a retreat haven. The Tibetan VajraVidya is only 1/3 complete and an amazing facility, cost at 35$ a night. They also still need near 800,000$ to finish. They are accepting retreatants. And Kagyu prophetic rumor has it that 42 mahasiddhas will realize in those rocky mountains. The other centers there are phenomenal as well. Ironically its at the navajo east mountain, which is also the opening in their 4 directional mandalas. Caught up in the winds and concepts it all looks like crap or something equally desirable. Setteling down and not destroying everything in sight when it stirs us up it takes on a different flavor. Think about Trungpa, if he had been pure none of those wild parting hippies would be buddhist today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050601/9b193cfe/attachment.htm From Nyigmu at wmconnect.com Wed Jun 1 13:39:06 2005 From: Nyigmu at wmconnect.com (Nyigmu@wmconnect.com) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:51:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] (Steve) Lane letter Message-ID: <196.4034f66e.2fcf68da@wmconnect.com> as the old grandma at the party told the young couple whose infant was up crying all night for the week..... best to find out whats bothering him and attend to it and he will stop, but either way (even if you can't discover it) it will pass. I think that addressing such concerns directly is best as just done. these things really get way out of hand when we go elementary school playground and a group gangs up on an unhappy individual -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050601/3d09f1cb/attachment.html From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 1 16:35:02 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:53:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fire department intervention Message-ID: Spirited discussion on controversial topics is always welcome on buddha-l. Flaming is not. There is a feature on buddha-l that enables the moderator to set the entire list back on moderation for a temporary duration, and I have done this in the interest of keeping the number of messages down to a reasonable limit. All messages about Buddhism (including Buddhism and politics, whether leftist or rightist) will still be approved. After a few days, when everyone has cooled down, we'll unset the moderation flags again. Breathing in, I smile, etc. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From vthewalt at gmx.net Wed Jun 1 13:21:03 2005 From: vthewalt at gmx.net (Volker Thewalt) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:56:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A ltter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: <429E0012.1060309@xs4all.nl> References: <200506011304.j51D48mx095913@taka.swcp.com> <429E0012.1060309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <429E0A9F.4070709@gmx.net> Thank you Erik, you've made my day! satyam eva jayate Volker -------------------------------- Erik Hoogcarspel schrieb: > Dear Lane Rinpoche, > thank you for restoring my belief in re??ncarnation. I never thought it > possible for two persons Joseph McCarthy and Edgar J. Hoover to > re??ncarnate in the same person. You must be a great yogi of Shugden. > Keep up the good work. Let the devils burn at the stake. It's such a > long time we didn't burn anybody and you see how people degenerate. Like > Nostrodamus said Mr. Hayes no doubt caused the gay marriages and Osama > Bin Laden, the loss of the Red Socks and Saddam Hussein. And in his > former life he undoubtedly caused Hitler too. Thrive a wooden pin > through his heart, soak him in garlic or make him president. > > Erik > -- Dr. Volker Thewalt Kapellenweg 8 D-69257 Wiesenbach Deutschland fon: +49(0)6223-970122 fax: +49(0)6223-970123 http://www.bamiyan.de http://www.thewalt.de/mahabalipuram --------------------------------- From mike at lamrim.org.uk Wed Jun 1 16:49:55 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:56:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc In-Reply-To: <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> <429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: In message <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz>, Sally McAra writes >Can anyone familiar with this school of thought explain this concept of >why "emptiness" justifies the construction of stupas, mega prayer >wheels etc (whether or not they agree)? I'm just hazarding a guess here. Perhaps your question is the answer. If it is constantly perplexing, it may keep your mind focussed on emptiness rather than letting the mind wander to more mundane topics. -- Metta Mike Austin From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 17:40:21 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:56:21 2005 Subject: Fw: [Buddha-l] Retreats? Message-ID: <004901c56703$46d73940$2930cece@charlie> Hey Curt, Please tell us where this lovely place is ---Maybe they don't advertise in Trycycle! Joanna ===================== >... friends were sitting around in Lexington, KY - but > that wasn't good enough for them - so they ended up buying hundreds > of acres of land out in the middle of nowhere and they built a Buddhist > temple there. I go there every chance I get because it is so beautiful > and serene. So sometimes it works out OK, I guess. > - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 17:52:19 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 17:56:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl><429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <005f01c56704$f2ec4df0$2930cece@charlie> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sally McAra" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:07 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc > curt wrote: > > > Small is beautiful. Power corrupts. Money is the root of all evil. > > But seriously - I know from my own experience that having a > > retreat center on a big chunk of land way out in the middle of > > nowhere can be a great thing. It isn't inevitable that it will get > > messed up - but it does seem to be quite likely - unfortunately. > > - Curt > > The development of Buddhist retreat centres is something I'm fascinated > by, especially as I'm working on a book manuscript about one in NZ, and > my PhD thesis also relates to that indirectly... > I have certainly noticed that here in NZ, as well as in Australia, > Buddhist centres are really struggling, and the fees they charge for > accommodation etc don't do anything more than cover costs. the ones I'm > aware of do not make a profit. However, there are some centres that have > very ambitious projects for which they engage in elaborate fundraising > schemes. I've heard the complaint made of various tibetan buddhist > dharma centres around the world, that one gets bombarded with leaflets > etc requesting money for this or that statue, stupa, temple etc. It is > amazing to see on the internet, elaborate places like Odiyan in > California. Incredibly elaborate and expensive buildings! But also > beautiful, at least according to some tastes. > > This reminds me, a follower of Tibetan Buddhism told me that if one > understands Emptiness one will understand why the lamas want so many > holy objects built. He related a story about the diversion of a large > donation (originally intended to support monks' education and health) > that ended up being used to build stupas at the monastery. The moral of > the story was, according to the guy who told me, that we mere > unenlightened ones don't understand, but the lamas understand Emptiness > and that this really was, wiht this realisation, the most beneficial > thing to do with the money, for all sentient beings (elsewhere I am > familiar with the argument that holy objects make a "beneficial imprint" > on one's mindstream). > > Big buildings and monuments rather than supporting the studies of monks > and nuns. Hmmm. With my limited view, I find it hard to understand why > the support of students (potential teachers) of buddhism was less > important than these stupas. But that is the thing that really interests > me, too. I'm sure my own cultural conditionings affect how I see this! > I'm trying to be open to things that I might not understand, rather than > just writing it off. This is something I wrote about in an earlier post > about being "ambivalent" about big temples etc... trying, at least for a > moment or two, to be shed my own biases, and see it in terms of the > people who are carrying out these projects. This may be futile, seeing > as there's not a lot of hope of my realising Emptiness in the course of > my research. > Can anyone familiar with this school of thought explain this concept of > why "emptiness" justifies the construction of stupas, mega prayer wheels > etc (whether or not they agree)? > > Cheers > Sally McAra > PhD candidate > Department of Anthropology > The University of Auckland > Private Bag 92019 > Auckland 1001 > New Zealand > http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/ant/Student%20Details/StudentPages/SallyMcara .htm > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 18:15:13 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 21:11:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc Message-ID: <000601c56708$2c9d41f0$2930cece@charlie> Sally McAra wrote: > > This reminds me, a follower of Tibetan Buddhism told me that if one > > understands Emptiness one will understand why the lamas want so many > > holy objects built. He related a story about the diversion of a large > > donation (originally intended to support monks' education and health) > > that ended up being used to build stupas at the monastery. The moral of > > the story was, according to the guy who told me, that we mere > > unenlightened ones don't understand, but the lamas understand Emptiness > > and that this really was, wiht this realisation, the most beneficial > > thing to do with the money, for all sentient beings (elsewhere I am > > familiar with the argument that holy objects make a "beneficial imprint" > > on one's mindstream). > > > > Big buildings and monuments rather than supporting the studies of monks > > and nuns. Hmmm. With my limited view, I find it hard to understand why > > the support of students (potential teachers) of buddhism was less > > important than these stupas. But that is the thing that really interests > > me, too. ============== Dear Sally, Your investigations don't seem to be sufficiently focused. Leave aside your concerns about "your" viewpoints, as compared to other viewpoints. Discuss research methods with your mentors, and follow them. Get busy digging up information from practitioners. For example, if you are looking for Tibetan Buddhist rationales for building stupas and other holy buildings, etc., instead of spending funds on supporting the health of monks and their educations, I suggest that you need to do more interviews with Tibetan Buddhist monks in order to develop the range of views, if there is one. For example, one can find ads in US Buddhist magazines calling on folks to donate money for nuns' educations, or even just for securing a reliable food supply for them! From what I've observed so far, it does seem that Tibetan Buddhist nuns in India are in greater need--in general-- for decent food and shelter and scholarly education, than the monks. (I don't know if there are any Tibetan Buddhist nunneries in NZ.) So there seems to be a gender differentiation in the management, and possibly the symbolism, of funds donated to Tibetan Buddhist organizations. Only in-depth fieldwork on your part can come up with at least plausible resolutions to these issues that interest you. Such research requires paying several visits to some Tibetan Buddhist centers in NZ to interview various levels of monks, from lowly to top offices, and also observing what's going on. Are monks being educated? Are more stupas being built? Relying on hearsay from this casual contact or that one won't get you very far, so far as doing a PhD dissertation is concerned. Best wishes for your success, Joanna Kirkpatrick, PhD Anthropologist From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 18:23:45 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 21:11:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl><429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org><429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> <005f01c56704$f2ec4df0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <003801c56709$56c4c5b0$2930cece@charlie> This was an error of slip of the finger on wrong key sorry JK ============== ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkirk" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sally McAra" > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:07 PM > Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc > > > > curt wrote: > > > > > Small is beautiful. Power corrupts. Money is the root of all evil. > > > But seriously - I know from my own experience that having a > > > retreat center on a big chunk of land way out in the middle of > > > nowhere can be a great thing. It isn't inevitable that it will get > > > messed up - but it does seem to be quite likely - unfortunately. > > > - Curt > > > > The development of Buddhist retreat centres is something I'm fascinated > > by, especially as I'm working on a book manuscript about one in NZ, and > > my PhD thesis also relates to that indirectly... > > I have certainly noticed that here in NZ, as well as in Australia, > > Buddhist centres are really struggling, and the fees they charge for > > accommodation etc don't do anything more than cover costs. the ones I'm > > aware of do not make a profit. However, there are some centres that have > > very ambitious projects for which they engage in elaborate fundraising > > schemes. I've heard the complaint made of various tibetan buddhist > > dharma centres around the world, that one gets bombarded with leaflets > > etc requesting money for this or that statue, stupa, temple etc. It is > > amazing to see on the internet, elaborate places like Odiyan in > > California. Incredibly elaborate and expensive buildings! But also > > beautiful, at least according to some tastes. > > > > This reminds me, a follower of Tibetan Buddhism told me that if one > > understands Emptiness one will understand why the lamas want so many > > holy objects built. He related a story about the diversion of a large > > donation (originally intended to support monks' education and health) > > that ended up being used to build stupas at the monastery. The moral of > > the story was, according to the guy who told me, that we mere > > unenlightened ones don't understand, but the lamas understand Emptiness > > and that this really was, wiht this realisation, the most beneficial > > thing to do with the money, for all sentient beings (elsewhere I am > > familiar with the argument that holy objects make a "beneficial imprint" > > on one's mindstream). > > > > Big buildings and monuments rather than supporting the studies of monks > > and nuns. Hmmm. With my limited view, I find it hard to understand why > > the support of students (potential teachers) of buddhism was less > > important than these stupas. But that is the thing that really interests > > me, too. I'm sure my own cultural conditionings affect how I see this! > > I'm trying to be open to things that I might not understand, rather than > > just writing it off. This is something I wrote about in an earlier post > > about being "ambivalent" about big temples etc... trying, at least for a > > moment or two, to be shed my own biases, and see it in terms of the > > people who are carrying out these projects. This may be futile, seeing > > as there's not a lot of hope of my realising Emptiness in the course of > > my research. > > Can anyone familiar with this school of thought explain this concept of > > why "emptiness" justifies the construction of stupas, mega prayer wheels > > etc (whether or not they agree)? > > > > Cheers > > Sally McAra > > PhD candidate > > Department of Anthropology > > The University of Auckland > > Private Bag 92019 > > Auckland 1001 > > New Zealand > > > http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/ant/Student%20Details/StudentPages/SallyMcara > .htm > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 1 18:33:17 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 1 21:11:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl><429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <000401c5670a$ac129500$2930cece@charlie> Sorry--I got Sally's project wrong--she's working on a book, not a thesis (dissertation?). Othrwise, what I said about her interests is still do-able. Joanna ===================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sally McAra" > The development of Buddhist retreat centres is something I'm fascinated > by, especially as I'm working on a book manuscript about one in NZ, and > my PhD thesis also relates to that indirectly... From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 2 05:46:20 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 2 08:18:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A letter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: References: <19e.348ef946.2fcf26a7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:41:47 -0500 (CDT) "Timothy C. Cahill" wrote: > I'm not really sure what a society of jackboots and > goose-steps looks like. PBS has had some good programs on North Korea recently. Several tens of thousands of soldiers in jackboots goosestepping and shouting praises to their enlightened leader is not a pretty sight. > See: > > http://www.campus-watch.org/ Tim, have you encountered any of the Indian studies equivalents to what this web site is doing? I haven't met any of them face to face, but I have heard rumors about students "monitoring" classes about Hinduism and complaining when professors said things that could be perceived as critical of, say, the caste system. As you no doubt recall, a few years ago the Indology list was almost brought down by some contributors who objected strenuously to someone suggesting that the Aryans had gone into India and Persia from Anatolia or the steppes of Europe, rather than being indigenous to India and moving out. Even discussions about Sanskrit grammar were becoming flame wars. Buddhist studies has been relatively free of attempts by Buddhists to control what is taught in the classroom, although I do recall receiving some threats in the mid-1990s from a Nichiren zealot who took offense at some thread on buddha-l. The messages arrived in my campus mailbox on postcards mailed from Connecticut. The messages were composed of letters cut out of newspapers and pasted on the cards. I thought it was laughable, but a couple of my colleagues were quite alarmed at the possible implications. The very idea of academic freedom is, and long has been, puzzling to quite a few non-academics. I suspect that American society is once again living in a period when the freedom to say things that deviate from a particular view of the world (even the universe) can be taken for granted. NPR and PBS are both under close scrutiny by neo-conservatives. The gap between North Korea and the United States is still (thank Amitabha) enormous, but events in recent years suggests it may be closing, and there is not much comforting evidence to suggest that the folks over in La Casa Blanca would not like to see America become as repressive as any number of totalitarian regimes in the Middle East, Asia, Africa and South America have been. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Jun 2 09:04:17 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu Jun 2 09:31:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] A letter concerning toleration In-Reply-To: References: <19e.348ef946.2fcf26a7@aol.com> Message-ID: <429F1FF1.3020508@cola.iges.org> I think that the "Hindutva" pheonomenon is somewhat more complex. In part it is a legitimate response to "cultural imperialism" - ie, Western intellectuals establishing an "accepted" view of all things Indian - without much input from said Indians. But even that isn't really true because one of the people that the Hindutvas get the most worked up about is Romila Thapar, who is Indian. But she is, according to the Hindutvas, a "Marxist" - which is, of course, a non-Indian ideology, and so even thought she is Indian she represents an infiltration of non-Indian ideas into the Indian intelligentsia, or something like that. But the critique of Thapar and "Marxism" is not without some merit - because there is a tendency for scholars to crudely misapply a deeply ingrained cultural critique of all religions that is really only applicable to Christianity. Even scholars who aren't Marxists often act like they are when talking about religion (the opiate of the people and all that). A fascinating window into the intellectual world of Hindu "revivalism", or what the western media and the Indian secularists have labeled as "fundamentalism" is the writings of David Frawley. - Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:41:47 -0500 (CDT) > "Timothy C. Cahill" wrote: > >> I'm not really sure what a society of jackboots and goose-steps looks >> like. > > > PBS has had some good programs on North Korea recently. Several tens > of thousands of soldiers in jackboots goosestepping and shouting > praises to their enlightened leader is not a pretty sight. > >> See: >> >> http://www.campus-watch.org/ > > > Tim, have you encountered any of the Indian studies equivalents to > what this web site is doing? I haven't met any of them face to face, > but I have heard rumors about students "monitoring" classes about > Hinduism and complaining when professors said things that could be > perceived as critical of, say, the caste system. As you no doubt > recall, a few years ago the Indology list was almost brought down by > some contributors who objected strenuously to someone suggesting that > the Aryans had gone into India and Persia from Anatolia or the steppes > of Europe, rather than being indigenous to India and moving out. Even > discussions about Sanskrit grammar were becoming flame wars. > > Buddhist studies has been relatively free of attempts by Buddhists to > control what is taught in the classroom, although I do recall > receiving some threats in the mid-1990s from a Nichiren zealot who > took offense at some thread on buddha-l. The messages arrived in my > campus mailbox on postcards mailed from Connecticut. The messages were > composed of letters cut out of newspapers and pasted on the cards. I > thought it was laughable, but a couple of my colleagues were quite > alarmed at the possible implications. > > The very idea of academic freedom is, and long has been, puzzling to > quite a few non-academics. I suspect that American society is once > again living in a period when the freedom to say things that deviate > from a particular view of the world (even the universe) can be taken > for granted. NPR and PBS are both under close scrutiny by > neo-conservatives. The gap between North Korea and the United States > is still (thank Amitabha) enormous, but events in recent years > suggests it may be closing, and there is not much comforting evidence > to suggest that the folks over in La Casa Blanca would not like to see > America become as repressive as any number of totalitarian regimes in > the Middle East, Asia, Africa and South America have been. > > From halc at xprt.net Thu Jun 2 14:39:39 2005 From: halc at xprt.net (Hal Cooper) Date: Thu Jun 2 16:22:35 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl><429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <001101c567b3$32a4df80$3e7d66d1@dharma> > This reminds me, a follower of Tibetan Buddhism told me that if one > understands Emptiness one will understand why the lamas want so many > holy objects built. Needn't remember, always out of line, asking for hand outs. There are so many that you could never know them all so what is there to understand? Just a common person wants to build things too. How could there be a way to tell the difference? From msdrummond at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 20:11:05 2005 From: msdrummond at yahoo.com (Michael Drummond) Date: Thu Jun 2 21:54:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Genesis and non-duality In-Reply-To: <000401c5670a$ac129500$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <20050603021105.32837.qmail@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear List Members. Would anyone have some thoughts on or be familiar with Buddhist-led research that examines the story in Genesis about the tree of the knowldge of good and evil. On the surface this would appear to be an issue of a period of 'innocence' based on a non-dual existence and as such would have implications for a buddhist analysis of the bible. Best, Michael Michael S. Drummond PhD Researcher in Buddhist Studies Faculty of Theology University of Utrecht The Netherlands http://www.msdrummond.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050602/2c2db5b8/attachment.html From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 20:10:21 2005 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu Jun 2 21:54:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc In-Reply-To: <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl> <429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <1642909049.20050603041021@gmail.com> Sally, SM> Can anyone familiar with this school of thought explain this concept of SM> why "emptiness" justifies the construction of stupas, mega prayer wheels SM> etc (whether or not they agree)? I am quite ignorant about these schools, however maybe you should consider that when people builds an Stupa, they are putting a Buddhist form in our reality. We know that there is not one reality having a different quality of the one Mind. Therefore the people put that form in the Mind so other people can pursue the truth. Of course, putting a Buddhist thing in our reality is not valid for all the people in an universal way. In the same way that you can put 10 universities to develop Buddhist studies and later you can read in this list the more unsuspected things. Basically, there is not solution and we put in the reality what we want. It is similar to those Japanese gardens, where some stones can be Buddhas but everyone see the stones with different eyes. In the same way, the University cannot uncover by herself what the nature still deny. A guy building Stupas develop a similar meritorious action as any scholar translating some text. No less no more. It depends of the different practice of the rest of people in front these things. Remembering actual times, a new Stupa in New Zeland can be an extravagance. And remembering Vasubandhu, a new Yogacara book using Husserl's phenomenology is another extravagance. I think all is ok. Enjoy the madness. If you are Buddhist and sometimes you think that you are not mad, then you can attack the moderator, Bush, or send your prayers to that Mr.Goodman. It is logical at all. Also I make it. If we don't make errors there is not motivation to be alive. The ultra-rational masquerade where we are forced to be perfect, even saying that we are not, it is another silly thing that a human being can believe. br, From RonLeifer at aol.com Thu Jun 2 21:59:48 2005 From: RonLeifer at aol.com (RonLeifer@aol.com) Date: Thu Jun 2 22:50:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Genesis and non-duality Message-ID: <67.4624bb02.2fd12fb4@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/2005 11:56:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, msdrummond@yahoo.com writes: Dear List Members. Would anyone have some thoughts on or be familiar with Buddhist-led research that examines the story in Genesis about the tree of the knowldge of good and evil. On the surface this would appear to be an issue of a period of 'innocence' based on a non-dual existence and as such would have implications for a buddhist analysis of the bible. Best, Michael I devoted a chapter to this called "The Polarization of Paradise" in my The Happiness Project (Snow Lion Publications, 1997). The Happiness Project was translated into Dutch Ron Leifer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050602/9225381b/attachment.htm From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 3 08:53:05 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri Jun 3 09:09:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres etc In-Reply-To: <001101c567b3$32a4df80$3e7d66d1@dharma> References: <011d01c562e1$c25a0410$2930cece@charlie> <429DC9C3.20500@cola.iges.org> <00b601c566ba$c1833980$2930cece@charlie> <429DD27C.3070707@cola.iges.org> <429DFAAD.6060400@xs4all.nl><429DFEC3.1000307@cola.iges.org> <429E31B6.7090000@auckland.ac.nz> <001101c567b3$32a4df80$3e7d66d1@dharma> Message-ID: <42A06ED1.7010807@xs4all.nl> Hal Cooper schreef: >>This reminds me, a follower of Tibetan Buddhism told me that if one >>understands Emptiness one will understand why the lamas want so many >>holy objects built. >> >> > >Needn't remember, always out of line, asking for hand outs. There are so >many that you could never know them all so what is there to understand? >Just a common person wants to build things too. How could there be a way to >tell the difference? > > > I think this is exactly what Chogyam Trungpa called spiritual materialism. And I presume that it has something to do with the function of builidings in Tibetan society. >Erik > From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 3 14:38:10 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 3 15:20:15 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: Charity as a moral conversational ethic; hermenutics of suspicion Message-ID: <00a101c5687c$2868d700$2930cece@charlie> > > > > On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 09:52 +0700, Randall Jones wrote: > > > > I would like to mention the principle of charity, alongside your mention > of a hermeneutics of suspicion. > > > > The textbook I have been using to teach a course called "Reasoning and > > critical thinking" has a wonderful section on the importance of the > > principle of charity. (The text is John Hughes, Critical Thinking.) The > > hermeneutics of suspicion, it seems to me, is a dramatic failure of the > > principle of charity; it seems, in fact, to be almost the opposite. The > > principle of charity begins with the assumption that the person whose > > words one is interpreting is being honest, benevolent, and basically > > sensible until it can be established conclusively that he or she was > > being deliberately deceptive, malevolent or seriously mistaken. > > Occasionally I have encountered people who find this principle of > > charity unconscionably naive. Personally, I find it no more naive than > > the principle that a person should be assumed innocent until proved > > guilty. ======================= This topic, originally titled "Can an Air Force cadet have Buddha nature?," sadly, has flown by without much of a discussion. I had never come across the phrase "hermeneutics of suspicion" until it first got posted on the list. It seems to accurately describe the dominant critical process in much scholarship of several past few decades and of today, including earlier studies on ideology (Mannheim e.g.,), in which it is taken for granted that there is a hidden agenda to be uncovered. I too have written in such mode. I wonder if it is not necessary to employ such a hermeneutic when dealing with texts, as opposed to dealing with live interlocutors--students, friends, colleagues, et al., for whom the moral imperative to be trusting and charitable seems, to me anyway, to be more compelling. This hermeneutic strikes me as very productive. One can, for ex., apply it with benefit to the speeches of GW Bush (e.g., the "Clean Air" act and his support of it), or in a different context, to printed matter that advertises the spiritual benefits of various Buddhist centers and/or teachers, while obscuring the monetary fork-overs that reveal themselves on further searching. Joanna From jmp at peavler.org Thu Jun 2 11:08:22 2005 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri Jun 3 15:21:24 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Guidelines for Contributers to Buddha-L References: <004901c56703$46d73940$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <000401c56873$c37d1750$0400a8c0@Cruiser> After yesterdays horrors, I thought it might me worth while to resend the welcome message that is sent to all new subscribers. GUIDELINES FOR > CONTRIBUTORS (revised 13 March 2005) > > It is hoped that this e-mail list will function as an open forum for > informed discussion of topics relating to the history, literature and > languages, fine arts, philosophy, practices and institutions of all > forms of Buddhism. It may also serve as a forum for discussion of > issues connected to the teaching of Buddhist studies at the university > level, and as a place for posting notices of employment opportunities > and recent publications of potential interest to students of Buddhism. > > > The primary purpose of this list is to provide a forum for serious > (and sometimes seriously playful) discussion. It is open to all > persons inside and outside the academic context who wish to engage in > substantial discussion of topics relating to Buddhism and Buddhist > studies. > > BUDDHA-L is not to be used for proselytizing for or against Buddhism > in general, any particular form of Buddhism, or any other religion or > philosophy, nor is it to be used as a forum for making unsubstantiable > confessions of personal conviction. Lively debate is welcome, but we > aim for a deep concern both for the matter being discussed and for > those participating in the conversation. With this in mind, > contributors to the list are expected to aim for quality rather than > quantity of discourse. > > Subscribers are expected to use their public, legal names in their > subscription. But there are no requirements of orthodoxy or > accomplishment in order to participate. Therefore, what you read on > BUDDHA-L carries no warranty of truth, intelligence, or kindness. > Judge for yourself what is well said, useful, and wholesome. > > Should you have a problem with another subscriber's posts to the list, > remember that you have a number of alternatives: you may reflect on > your attitude and how their words affect you; you may discuss your > concerns privately with the other subscriber, or publicly on the list; > you may decide to stop reading posts by that subscriber; and you may > contact the list administrator, stating the problem as you see it. > > Richard P. Hayes rhayes@unm.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > To post to this list, send your email to: > > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > > General information about the mailing list is at: > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to > or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your > subscription page at: > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/options/buddha-l/jmp%40peavler.org > > You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: > > buddha-l-request@mailman.swcp.com > > with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the > quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. > > You must know your password to change your options (including changing > the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. Jim Peavler jmp@peavler.org From bsimon at toad.net Fri Jun 3 17:22:49 2005 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Fri Jun 3 17:38:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Retreats, and fundraising for retreat centres, etc Message-ID: <8539bc4e6f4ec8539f1f5dd30c8a5741@toad.net> SM> Can anyone familiar with this school of thought explain this concept of SM> why "emptiness" justifies the construction of stupas, mega prayer wheels SM> etc (whether or not they agree)? My guess is the reasoning goes something like this: Understanding emptiness is understanding cause and effect, as Chandrakirti explained Understanding cause and effect is understanding karma Understanding karma impels one to practice virtuous deeds and avoid unvirtuous deeds Building stupas is a virtuous deed Therefore, someone who understands emptiness will build stupas QED (not really) ---- and it hurts a lot but it's missed when it's gone http://carelesshand.net From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sat Jun 4 08:30:19 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Sat Jun 4 08:40:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ven. Yin Shun passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since no one seems to have informed this list... probably the most important of scholars on Chinese Buddhism, the Most Venerable Yin Shun (b. 1906), passed away on June 4. He once wrote, "My body is old and frail. But my heart never parted with the joy of encountering the Dharma in the prime of my youth." "May every one of my lives be spent in this samsaric world dedicated to the Buddha-vacana." O mi tuo fo... W. F. Wong From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 4 12:33:08 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Jun 4 17:18:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] More Buddhist angels? Message-ID: <000501c56933$db30e370$2930cece@charlie> Well well, check this link: http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/bagan/anandaindex.htm the gandharva figures on either side of the central figure andonebelow it are winged. I can't make out clearly the others...... >From the Shwe-Kyaung-pyi monastery--remainder of King Mindon's palaces built in mid 19th c, therefore one infers that the winged angel image types were inspired by western art through contact of the British and their cultural baggage. Joanna From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Sat Jun 4 18:29:25 2005 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sat Jun 4 21:06:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: Michel et al., Michel Clasquin wondered, > (Anybody know what happened to Walters?) Jon Walters is a tenured professor of religion at Whitman College, an elite liberal arts college in Walla Walla Washington (such a pleasure even to type that name). He's doing alright, I'd say (despite his evil karma for setting your dissertation back so much). I knew Jon a bit (he was a few years ahead of me at the University of Chicago) and he's one smart cookie. A canvasser for California Peace Action came by my home, recently, to snag some money for lost causes and we got to talking. Walters was her advisor at Whitman and she says he's just the best teacher and the nicest guy (again, sorry Michel). But let me make up with you by commenting on your (and Jon's, oops) idea that efforts toward the spread of Buddhism were just not the same as missionizing efforts in the Christian context (at least until the rise of "Protestant Buddhism" and its parallels in Japan). You wrote, > Now [lack of doctrinal congruence] did not stop Buddhism from moving > into other areas with very different traditions of their own, but > patronage, either royal (eg Tibet, Japan) or by a prosperous trading > class (China) had a lot to do with that. No patronage, no spread of > Buddhism. This seems right to me and it set me thinking: who are the patrons of Buddhism here in "the West" (wherever that is)? I don't know about South Africa, but in the United States the patrons of Buddhism are mostly not the economic elite (who have functioned as patrons in past ages), but the cultural elite. That is, Buddhism, and in particular, individual Buddhists have been lionized, feted, and supported by masses of doting, over-educated, sincere, and often naively idealistic followers (myself included). But where these folks tend to have less economic capital than prior patrons, they have equal or greater cultural capital. Thus Buddhism gets astoundingly good press in America; is appropriated to an absurd amount in the media (e.g., in advertising); is absorbed into the arts and therapies at the highest levels; and enjoys a kind of cultural prestige no other religion even approximates. While I think the side-effects of this are generally excellent for America (which needs them), I wonder how good this is for Buddhism itself--especially as the forms of Buddhism with high exposure and prestige tend to be "convert" Buddhisms and not "ethnic" Buddhisms. Still, would I prefer the opposite situation? No. Best, Franz Metcalf From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 4 22:06:28 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Jun 5 04:33:40 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] More Buddhist angels? References: <000501c56933$db30e370$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <005a01c56983$f34736d0$2930cece@charlie> The link is not specific so here is how to get to the image. Someone just asked me, and I realized nobody could find the image if left to their own devices unless they have hours at their disposal! First go to the link supplied below, then click Myanmar on left sidebar, then go down list to Mandalay, then click on Shwenandaw Kyaung Temple-------you get thumbnails, then click on 1st image in 2d row from top. Joanna ======================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkirk" To: "Buddha-L" Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 12:33 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] More Buddhist angels? > Well well, check this link: > http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/bagan/anandaindex.htm > > the gandharva figures on either side of the central figure andonebelow it > are winged. > I can't make out clearly the others...... > >From the Shwe-Kyaung-pyi monastery--remainder of King Mindon's palaces built > in mid 19th c, therefore one infers that the winged angel image types were > inspired by western art through contact of the British and their cultural > baggage. > > Joanna > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jun 5 10:53:28 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Jun 5 10:56:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spread of Buddhism References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain><4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <001d01c569ef$1902a0b0$2930cece@charlie> Franz wrote: ... your (and Jon's, oops) > idea that efforts toward the spread of Buddhism were just not the same > as missionizing efforts in the Christian context (at least until the > rise of "Protestant Buddhism" and its parallels in Japan). You wrote, > > > Now [lack of doctrinal congruence] did not stop Buddhism from moving > > into other areas with very different traditions of their own, but > > patronage, either royal (eg Tibet, Japan) or by a prosperous trading > > class (China) had a lot to do with that. No patronage, no spread of > > Buddhism. =============== Hi Franz and Michel, I'd suggest that as Christianity was spreading to Japan via the Portuguese and later Dutch and English merchant ships during the period of European exploration, and to India where, under the later Raj, in India's case the patrons were dual: the English government who, after they took over the East India Company, then allowed missionaries free rein in India, and the well-supported church congregations that consisted of--guess what--a "prosperous trading class." English and Scottish merchants and merchant capital, to which could be added the wealthy professions, such as they were at that time, were the patrons. So in a way, the patronage for the spread of Christianity in India paralled that for Buddhism with the addition of colonial government intervention and support, (although I'm uncertain if the Raj government monetarily supported the missions in India, but they gave them lots of other kinds of support.) I have a hunch that the Portuguese and the Dutch governments also supported the missonizing that accompanied the trading ships to China and Japan. Best wishes, Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jun 5 11:07:11 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Jun 5 11:16:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spread of Buddhism References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain><4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <000401c569f1$03ea9ff0$2930cece@charlie> Of course the Portuguese, Duch and French were in India too, having set up trading stations and influence in various locations, but eventually the Brits took over most of the country and reigned supreme. I should have added that, like some patronage of Buddhism in Japan by the government-- the daimyos-- (Ieyasu Tokugawa being most famous), in India the Raj also funded Christian educational instititutions, etc. So in many ways they supplied fnancial patronage along with moral and legal support to Christian missions. (This is not to overlook that Nestorian Christianity had existed in India allegedly since 52AD, but they were not aggressive missionaries.) Joanna From clasqm at mweb.co.za Sun Jun 5 16:08:05 2005 From: clasqm at mweb.co.za (Michel Clasquin) Date: Sun Jun 5 16:42:23 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <42A377C5.6010702@mweb.co.za> Franz Metcalf wrote: >> Now [lack of doctrinal congruence] did not stop Buddhism from moving >> into other areas with very different traditions of their own, but >> patronage, either royal (eg Tibet, Japan) or by a prosperous trading >> class (China) had a lot to do with that. No patronage, no spread of >> Buddhism. > > This seems right to me and it set me thinking: who are the patrons of > Buddhism here in "the West" (wherever that is)? I don't know about South > Africa, but in the United States the patrons of Buddhism are mostly not > the economic elite (who have functioned as patrons in past ages), but > the cultural elite. Pretty much the same down here. Buddhism is seen as an alternative, but as the "respectable" alternative, embraced by artists, authors and such. State out there in public that you belong to the Baha'i Faith and all you get are blank stares, even though they outnumber Buddhists in South Africa. My own conclusion on that was that interest in Buddhism is directly proportional to the level of education (relative to a given society) and the leisure to investigate cultural alternatives. /pace/ Richard Hayes, the *dharma* may be easy to understand, but *Buddhism* is rich and complicated, and it takes a certain level of intercultural nous to get a grip on it (only to have that grip loosened by Buddhism itself, of course). This implies that Buddhism in its initial stage of transference from one culture to another will inevitably have an elitist air about it. > That is, Buddhism, and in particular, individual > Buddhists have been lionized, feted, and supported by masses of doting, > over-educated, sincere, and often naively idealistic followers (myself > included). But where these folks tend to have less economic capital than > prior patrons, they have equal or greater cultural capital. Would that still be true today in the increasingly inward and backwards looking world, or are we talking about the post-60s-and-70s West here? Not trying to start a flame war , just wondering. -- "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell From clasqm at mweb.co.za Sun Jun 5 16:23:13 2005 From: clasqm at mweb.co.za (Michel Clasquin) Date: Sun Jun 5 16:42:23 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <001d01c569ef$1902a0b0$2930cece@charlie> References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain><4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> <001d01c569ef$1902a0b0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42A37B51.8070808@mweb.co.za> Joanna, There is no doubt that patronage is important in the spread of all religions. Walter's contention was that there is no equivalent in Buddhism to the Great Commission,"Go forth and make disciples of all the nations" (from memory). He claims that when the Buddha told the arahants that they should go forth and preach the dhamma and "go not two together", he was not sending them out on a missionary effort: he was *dismissing* them. They were arahants now, they had nothing further to learn from him, and they should go and do what arahants do naturally. His doctoral thesis is rather brilliant IMHO and well worth reading. The difference between patronage in the two cases is that in Buddhism the patronage came from indigenous persons or social groupings who had becvome interested in one way or another. A Chinese trading class, for example would take some trouble to get hold of Indian monks and manuscripts. In Christianity, it was more a case of patronage by outside parties who were primarily interested in spreading their religion to new areas. It is the difference between fetching a religion and adpting it for local consumption, and sending (which is what the Latin roots of "mission" mean IIRC) a religion somewhere else, hoping it will take root there. jkirk wrote: > =============== > Hi Franz and Michel, > > I have a hunch that the Portuguese and the Dutch governments also supported > the missonizing that accompanied the trading ships to China and Japan. I vaguely remember reading that at least in some eras the relationship was far more complicated. If a Japanese became a Christian, he could no longer be cheated with impunity! -- "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jun 5 20:24:23 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Jun 5 20:26:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spread of Buddhism References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain><4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> <001d01c569ef$1902a0b0$2930cece@charlie> <42A37B51.8070808@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <002501c56a3e$dac88c60$2930cece@charlie> It is the difference between fetching a religion and adapting it > for local consumption, and sending (which is what the Latin roots of > "mission" mean IIRC) a religion somewhere else, hoping it will take root > there. ======================== Well, I suppose one can make that difference, but to my mind that difference is pretty thin when one considers that Buddhism was spread to countries "somewhere else," other than its native land India, via two- or multiple-way traffic of monks of various kinds taking scriptures and teachings for the ignorant in Central, South East Asia and East Asia. To me "spreading" takes account of both "fetching" and "sending." And in the process we find that the same social groups and elites that patronized the spread of Christianity also patronized the spread of Buddhism. I wonder if Walter found any data on the attitudes of itinerant Buddhist monks, as they made their ways between the various continents and sub-continents, toward the religions they encountered en route and the audiences to whom they presumably preached. My guess would be that the Christians were probably more condescending and dismissive of the local religions and folkways in their paths than the Buddhists were. That, to me, would be a significant difference. I can't imagine any Buddhist monk putting clothing on bare-breated women in the audience, but the Christians certainly did. I offer that as merely one example of the many ways the Christians struggled to drastically change the folkways --the cultures--that they were among. Joanna From dhammanando at csloxinfo.com Sun Jun 5 21:25:29 2005 From: dhammanando at csloxinfo.com (dhammanando@csloxinfo.com) Date: Mon Jun 6 08:20:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: More Buddhist angels? Message-ID: <1118028329.42a3c229a6656@webmail.csloxinfo.com> Dear Joanna, > Well well, check this link: > http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/bagan/anandaindex.htm > the gandharva figures on either side of the central figure > andonebelow it are winged. I can't make out clearly the > others...... From the Shwe-Kyaung-pyi monastery--remainder > of King Mindon's palaces built in mid 19th c, therefore one > infers that the winged angel image types were inspired by > western art through contact of the British and their > cultural baggage. I think that's unlikely. Unlike 19th century Siamese princes, with their fondness for dressing up as Russian cavalry officers etc., the Burmese of that period were not much into aping foreign things at all. One would really need to know what sort of creatures the sculptures represent. If -- as I suspect -- they are kinnaras or kinnariis (half-bird, half-human) then there would be nothing innovative in King Mindon's artists depicting them with wings. Some other Burmese examples: 13th century http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2124/images/20041203000106506.jpg the same in more detail: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/burmese/cooler/Chapter_3/Part4/Images/ux75.JPG 19th century http://www.seasite.niu.edu/burmese/cooler/Chapter_3/Part4/Images/BC87.1.1.jpg Best wishes, Dhammanando From vthewalt at gmx.net Mon Jun 6 00:57:51 2005 From: vthewalt at gmx.net (Volker Thewalt) Date: Mon Jun 6 08:21:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] More Buddhist angels? In-Reply-To: <000501c56933$db30e370$2930cece@charlie> References: <000501c56933$db30e370$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42A3F3EF.3020803@gmx.net> Dear Joanna, dear all, having a short look at Marshall, Buddhist Art of Gandhara (Cambridge 1960, Re-printed in Pakistan at the Anjuman Press, Karachi) I found quite a number of winged "angels": figs. 21, 22: Inscribed brackets (nagadantas) in form of a winged deva from Sirkap figs. 23-25: ditto, from Kunala and Dharmarajika figs. 145,146: similar: winged atlants fig. 148: frieze of garland with winged figures from Kalawan. There must be many more sculptures like these --- unfortunately I do not have all the publications (Foucher, Ingholt, Rosenfield, Faccenna, etc.) at hand to check it out. Best, Volker ---------------- jkirk schrieb: > Well well, check this link: > http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/bagan/anandaindex.htm > > the gandharva figures on either side of the central figure andonebelow it > are winged. > I can't make out clearly the others...... >>From the Shwe-Kyaung-pyi monastery--remainder of King Mindon's palaces built > in mid 19th c, therefore one infers that the winged angel image types were > inspired by western art through contact of the British and their cultural > baggage. > > Joanna > -- Dr. Volker Thewalt Kapellenweg 8 D-69257 Wiesenbach Deutschland fon: +49(0)6223-970122 fax: +49(0)6223-970123 http://www.bamiyan.de http://www.thewalt.de/mahabalipuram --------------------------------- From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Sun Jun 5 17:49:36 2005 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (zelders.YH) Date: Mon Jun 6 08:22:47 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <200506051800.j55I0NlG001043@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200506051800.j55I0NlG001043@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050606011456.025518f0@pop.wxs.nl> Joanna Kirk wrote : >I'd suggest that as Christianity was spreading to Japan via the Portuguese >and later Dutch and English merchant ships during the period of European >exploration, .. Well, the Portuguese - or rather the Jesuits - were succesful at first in their missionary activities in Japan, but all that ended in a bloody massacre of Japanese converts, and they were kicked out in 1640. For more than two hundred years after that the Dutch were the only Europeans in direct contact with Japan, but they were confined to a trading post in Nagasaki harbour. One of the strict conditions for their stay was that they would not try to win over Japanese to the Christian faith. As a matter of fact that wasn't their first concern. Making money was. >I have a hunch that the Portuguese and the Dutch governments also supported >the missonizing that accompanied the trading ships to China and Japan. It wasn't the Dutch government who sent out the trading ships but a company of private entrepreneurs, the V.O.C. or Dutch East India Company, that had trading posts on nearly every Asian coast. Herman Zelders From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jun 6 08:58:53 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Jun 6 09:06:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: More Buddhist angels? References: <1118028329.42a3c229a6656@webmail.csloxinfo.com> Message-ID: <005901c56aa8$420a7a00$2930cece@charlie> > > I think that's unlikely. Unlike 19th century Siamese > princes, with their fondness for dressing up as Russian > cavalry officers etc., the Burmese of that period were not > much into aping foreign things at all. > > One would really need to know what sort of creatures the > sculptures represent. If -- as I suspect -- they are > kinnaras or kinnariis (half-bird, half-human) then there > would be nothing innovative in King Mindon's artists > depicting them with wings. > > Some other Burmese examples: > > 13th century > http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2124/images/20041203000106506.jpg > > the same in more detail: > http://www.seasite.niu.edu/burmese/cooler/Chapter_3/Part4/Images/ux75.JPG > > 19th century > http://www.seasite.niu.edu/burmese/cooler/Chapter_3/Part4/Images/BC87.1.1.jp g > > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando ======================= Greetings Dhammanando, You have a point about kinnaras/kinnaris.......but the posture of the figures I noted is that typical of flying gandharvas .....these have human legs whereas the usual Burmese kinnara has bird legs.....and kinnaras are not usually depicted in the flying-in-the-air posture. The shape/design of the wings also in these more Burmese-looking images is very different from the wing shape on the 19th c. building items I noted...the latter closely resemble the usual wing shape found in 19th c. "western" art. Two totally different wing designs. However, I'm not sure my surmise is right as to how these winged gandharvas (as I still see them) got on the Burmese monastery building . Your suggestion that the Burmese did not copy western models at that time may indeed be correct. I'd need to check up some works on Burmese architecture and art to see if further illumination on this winged angel point is available, and around here where I live there ain't no such books. Maybe someone on the list with access to a good university library will find some art historian discussion that will shed more light on the question. Maybe Prof Cooler knows the answer. Thanks for the additional links. Best wishes and pedantically yours, Joanna _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jun 6 09:09:00 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Jun 6 09:16:30 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] More Buddhist angels? References: <000501c56933$db30e370$2930cece@charlie> <42A3F3EF.3020803@gmx.net> Message-ID: <007201c56aa9$abaff560$2930cece@charlie> > Dear Joanna, dear all, > > having a short look at Marshall, Buddhist Art of > Gandhara (Cambridge 1960, Re-printed > in Pakistan at the Anjuman Press, Karachi) I found > quite a number of winged "angels": > > figs. 21, 22: Inscribed brackets (nagadantas) in form > of a winged deva from Sirkap > figs. 23-25: ditto, from Kunala and Dharmarajika > figs. 145,146: similar: winged atlants > fig. 148: frieze of garland with winged figures from > Kalawan. > > There must be many more sculptures like these --- > unfortunately I do not > have all the publications (Foucher, Ingholt, > Rosenfield, Faccenna, etc.) at hand to > check it out. > > Best, > Volker ==================================== Hi Volker, Yes, as I pointed out early in the Buddhist angel discussion, Gandhara is where winged figures do appear.......winged deities and animals entered Greek art via Persian influence, and thus the winged deity idea was conveyed to the Gandhara area and artists, as it was originally ruled by Greeks. At least this is how I "got" it, but perhaps this idea has undergone revision? Best Joanna > > ---------------- > jkirk schrieb: > > Well well, check this link: > > http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/bagan/anandaindex.htm > > > > the gandharva figures on either side of the central figure andonebelow it > > are winged. > > I can't make out clearly the others...... > >>From the Shwe-Kyaung-pyi monastery--remainder of King Mindon's palaces built > > in mid 19th c, therefore one infers that the winged angel image types were > > inspired by western art through contact of the British and their cultural > > baggage. > > > > Joanna > > > > -- > > Dr. Volker Thewalt > Kapellenweg 8 > D-69257 Wiesenbach > Deutschland > fon: +49(0)6223-970122 > fax: +49(0)6223-970123 > http://www.bamiyan.de > http://www.thewalt.de/mahabalipuram > --------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 6 10:25:47 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 6 10:36:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <42A377C5.6010702@mweb.co.za> References: <1110166190.6271.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110167944.6271.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4296429B.9020803@mweb.co.za> <42A377C5.6010702@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <1118075147.5282.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 00:08 +0200, Michel Clasquin wrote: > My own conclusion on that was that interest in Buddhism is directly > proportional to the level of education (relative to a given society) and > the leisure to investigate cultural alternatives. Thomas Tweed has made a similar observation about Buddhism in America. In the 19th century only the most wealthy could learn about Buddhism, since books and travel were both expensive, and one could not learn much about Buddhism without buying prohibitively expensive academic books or traveling to Asia. Moreover, in the 1850s and later, it was considered alien and somehow un-American to take an interest in Buddhism; this was the time of the "nativist" movement in American religion, when any religious traditions that were associated with exotic places like Rome and Asia were regarded with deep suspicion. (Of course religions associated with native American peoples were also somehow deemed un-American, but that's another whole story.) So when Abraham Lincoln's Secretary of State took a fancy in Buddhism, he kept it secret from everyone but his most intimate friends. Even many members in his family did not know that he secretly considered himself a Buddhist. Tweed's account of all this is quite fascinating. > /pace/ Richard Hayes, the *dharma* may be easy to understand, but > *Buddhism* is rich and complicated, and it takes a certain level of > intercultural nous to get a grip on it (only to have that grip > loosened by Buddhism itself, of course). No pace needed on that. It states my position exactly. There is hardly anything in the teachings of the Buddha that puts a strain on the intellect, but once intellectuals got their talons into the Dharma, it became dead meat. Some of the writings of Buddhist intellectuals became so abstruse that hardly anyone could make heads of tails of them. And then the measure of how well someone "understood" Dharma was not how kind they were, but how well they could explain the subtle differences between Devendrabuddhi and Manorathanandin, or between mKhas-grub and rGyal-msthan, or between Xianzang and Fazang. > This implies that Buddhism in its initial stage of transference from one > culture to another will inevitably have an elitist air about it. Its elitism is inevitable only if what is transmitted is the works of scholastics. If someone insists that the epitome of Dharma is Fazang or Tsong ha pa or Dogen, then only highly specialized scholars will be qualified to study Dharma. But it needn't be that way, even if it almost always is that way. -- Richard Hayes *** "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for every one, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." -- William Clifford From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 23:46:47 2005 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Tue Jun 7 07:39:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Embryo In-Reply-To: <007201c56aa9$abaff560$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <20050607054647.58526.qmail@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Many years ago, I read about stages of embryonic developement, from fetus to birth, or something like that, in a Buddhist scripture. Is there really such thing? Where can I get more information? Or which sutta mentioned it? Thanks, Rahula --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050606/5c8a8b17/attachment.html From wdkish81 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 10:57:19 2005 From: wdkish81 at yahoo.com (Bill Kish) Date: Tue Jun 7 11:20:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <200506061800.j56I0JMA018456@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20050607165719.36708.qmail@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Richard Hayes: > > If someone insists that the epitome of Dharma is Fazang or > Tsong ha pa or Dogen, then only highly specialized scholars > will be qualified to study Dharma. I take issue with the "only" in "only highly specialized scholars", at least with respect to Je Tsongkhapa. There is certainly much in his collected works that is impenetrable without an extensive knowledge of Indian and Tibetan Buddhist scholasticism, but in my experience his lam rim texts, as well as some of his poems and letters, were written in a way that allows the essential points of the Buddhist path to be straightforwardly put into practice by a very broad class of practitioners. > "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for every one, to believe > anything upon insufficient evidence." -- William Clifford Did Clifford intend the above statement to be taken seriously ? If so, I am curious what evidence he provided to justify such a strong knowledge claim. --------- Bill Kish __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 7 12:06:45 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 7 14:16:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Spread of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <20050607165719.36708.qmail@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050607165719.36708.qmail@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1118167605.5656.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 09:57 -0700, Bill Kish wrote: > I take issue with the "only" in "only highly specialized scholars", > at least with respect to Je Tsongkhapa. There is certainly much > in his collected works that is impenetrable without an extensive > knowledge of Indian and Tibetan Buddhist scholasticism, but in my > experience his lam rim texts, as well as some of his poems and > letters, were written in a way that allows the essential points of > the Buddhist path to be straightforwardly put into practice by a > very broad class of practitioners. But there is no reliable access to them unless one reads Tibetan. > > "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for every one, to believe > > anything upon insufficient evidence." -- William Clifford > > Did Clifford intend the above statement to be taken seriously ? I don't know. I'm not William Clifford, and I have never read anything written by him, except for a paragraph that contains the sentence cited above. William James cites Clifford in his essay "The will to believe." (Will James had the will to believe, but Will Clifford did not.) James shows many a flaw in Clifford's view and gives ample reasons to reject it as untenable. > If so, I am curious what evidence he provided to justify such a > strong knowledge claim. You may have to read Clifford to find that out. Even without reading Clifford, however, it is easy to know that there can be no evidence in support of his view, just as there can be no evidence in support of Nagarjuna's proclamations of a similar nature. The unsupportability of Clifford's pronouncement is what James shows in a variety of ways. He also says that the vast majority of what everyone believes is not founded on any evidence whatsoever that the believer can articulate. So a reason for rejecting Clifford is not that it's unsupportable, but rather that it is just too cramped and lacking in hope to be attractive. It's a thought-provoking essay, one of James's best, I believe. (I believe that, but I have no evidence to support it.) And now I believe I'll go have lunch. I think I'll have a piece of bread covered with Buddhism spread. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From sgrmti at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 15:40:00 2005 From: sgrmti at hotmail.com (r.g.morrison) Date: Tue Jun 7 20:55:34 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Embryo References: <20050607054647.58526.qmail@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rahula: : Many years ago, I read about stages of embryonic developement, from fetus to birth, or something like that, in a Buddhist scripture. : : Is there really such thing? Where can I get more information? Or which sutta mentioned it? See Samyutta Nikaya i. 206, where the stages are first the kalala or initial 'embryo', which is supposed to be like a tiny translucent drop, followed by abbuda, pesii, and ghana, from which 'emerge the limbs' These are also mentioned by Buddhaghosa, Visuddhimagga 236. Robert Morrison From dhammanando at csloxinfo.com Tue Jun 7 23:21:51 2005 From: dhammanando at csloxinfo.com (dhammanando@csloxinfo.com) Date: Tue Jun 7 23:28:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Spread of Buddhism Message-ID: <1118208111.42a6806f0c95f@webmail.csloxinfo.com> Bill Kish: >> "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for every one, to believe >> anything upon insufficient evidence." -- William Clifford > Did Clifford intend the above statement to be taken seriously ? He seems to me to have been pretty serious. > If so, I am curious what evidence he provided to justify such a > strong knowledge claim. If you go to this link: http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm you can read Clifford's essay, _The Ethics of Belief_, together with Wm James' _The Will to Believe_ (a defence of faith and in part a critique of Clifford), and  A.J. Burger's _An Examination of The Will to Believe'_ (a contemporary defence of Clifford and critique of James, though rather a jejune one, imo). Best wishes, Dhammanando From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 8 09:17:40 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 8 09:27:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] spread of Buddhism? Message-ID: <000c01c56c3d$369b7610$2930cece@charlie> http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=00000000001,00000001302,0,0,1,0 Article on missionizing Sri Lanka by all but Buddhists--even Scientologists have gotten into the act. Christian missions bring food and other necessities to tsunami camps, even building housing, while Scientologists provide therapeutic massages and offer marriage to tsunami widows as a means to stay in SL. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 8 09:37:11 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 8 09:47:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Engaged Buddhism Message-ID: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> A Fourth Turning of the Wheel? by Christopher Queen Provocative article by Christopher Queen on engaged Buddhism as a "fourth yana"? http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=00000000008,00000001296,0,0,1,0 Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 8 18:54:39 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 8 18:57:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Engaged Buddhism In-Reply-To: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 09:37 -0600, jkirk wrote: > A Fourth Turning of the Wheel? > by Christopher Queen The last I heard, there had already been four turnings by those who like to count such things. So Queen's would make a fifth, provided that Buddhist arithmetic admits that four plus one makes five. -- Richard Hayes *** "When a stupid man does something is is ashamed of, he always says it is his duty." -- George Bernard Shaw From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 03:34:35 2005 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Thu Jun 9 03:37:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Embryo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050609093435.80622.qmail@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Thanks a lot. I wonder whether it match the description by science. I have no knowledge in this field. Best wishes, Rahula "r.g.morrison" wrote: Rahula: See Samyutta Nikaya i. 206, where the stages are first the kalala or initial 'embryo', which is supposed to be like a tiny translucent drop, followed by abbuda, pesii, and ghana, from which 'emerge the limbs' These are also mentioned by Buddhaghosa, Visuddhimagga 236. Robert Morrison --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050609/7f38e261/attachment.html From sgrmti at hotmail.com Thu Jun 9 07:21:26 2005 From: sgrmti at hotmail.com (r.g.morrison) Date: Thu Jun 9 07:27:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Embryo References: <20050609093435.80622.qmail@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rahula: : I wonder whether it match the description by science. I have no knowledge in this field. Hello Rahula, You could searching under Damien Keown, who has written on this area. If I remember he has a book called 'Buddhism and Bioethics', and he's the editor of another book dealing with abortion, which must have something to say about this area. Robert From brburl at mailbag.com Thu Jun 9 00:55:01 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Thu Jun 9 08:21:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Empty universe In-Reply-To: <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> Here is a bit a rather solid exegesis that is worth considering: http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/index.htm#emptyuniverse__1 From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 9 11:00:07 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 9 11:07:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Engaged Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118336407.5252.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 18:54 -0600, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > The last I heard, there had already been four turnings by those who like > to count such things. So Queen's would make a fifth, provided that > Buddhist arithmetic admits that four plus one makes five. Not so fast, Dr. Hayes. The four turnings of the wheel is a Mahayana myth according to which the first turning was about elementary matters such as how to attain nirvana and how to count to four (or, for advanced students, eight), the second turning was about emptiness and bodhisattvas, the third was about awareness only and the fourth was about tathagata-garbha. Now, Chris Queen's article on the so-called "fifth turning of the wheel" is mostly about Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar. Ambedkar repudiated Mahayana in no uncertain terms, portraying it as the insidious intrusion of Hindu superstitions into the Buddha-dhamma. Hindu superstition, claimed Ambedkar, was responsible for enfeebling the Indian people, turning them into morally confused weaklings and physical cowards who were subject to constant conquest by outsiders (Huns, Arabs, Persians, Turks and Britons). Ambedkar would regard the second, third and fourth phases of Buddhism not as turnings of the wheel but as jamming a stick into the spokes and bringing the wheel to an abrupt stop. To honour Ambedkar, then, one should not use the metaphor of the fifth turning of the wheel to refer to his brand of engaged Buddhism, but as an attempt to restart the first (and only true) turning of the wheel. As Buddhist scholastics in India never tired of pointing out, metaphors matter. As George Lakoff has written, we live by them. We also die by them. And (says Lakoff) we also let ourselves be seduced into electing dangerous and tyrannical governments by them. I think he may exaggerate, but I am too bushed right now to say why. -- Richard Hayes Standard disclaimer: The views expessed in this message do not necessarily represent anyone's opinions, including my own. From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 9 11:08:56 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 9 11:18:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-7?q?Wisdom=A2s?= New Paperback Sutta Anthology from Bhikkhu Bodhi Message-ID: <1118336936.6026.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Timothy McNeill, Publisher/CEO of Wisdom Publications Inc., has asked me to forward the following announcement, which should be of interest to many of you. ======================================================================= Teachers and Friends, Wisdom Publications is pleased to announce its new paperback anthology of the award-winning ?Teachings of the Buddha? discourses series: In the Buddha?s Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon Edited and introduced by Bhikkhu Bodhi Foreword by the Dalai Lama 496 pages, 6"x 9", ISBN 0-86171-491-1, US$18.95 In the Buddha?s Words is truly a landmark development in the presentation of Buddhist thought in the West. Initially conceived in response to requests from professors, this collection organizes the wealth of the Pali Nikayas within a single inexpensive volume that is ideal for course adoption. The ten thematic chapters, each with a clear and thoughtful introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi, make the vast and ancient discourses accessible as never before. In the Buddha?s Words will be available mid-summer, in time for fall classes. If you would like to receive a PDF file of the detailed table of contents, prefaces, and introduction, simply email wisdom@wisdompubs.org with the exact words ?send pdf? in the subject heading. The file you will receive can be opened with Adobe Acrobat Reader. We also invite you to sign-up for Wisdom?s monthly email announcement of new releases by clicking this link:http://www.wisdompubs.org/html/about/mailing/index.cfm From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 9 16:27:22 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 9 16:27:26 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Empty universe In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> Bruce Burrill wrote: > Here is a bit a rather solid exegesis that is worth considering: > > http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/index.htm#emptyuniverse__1 That looks a lot like the work of a former McGill student named Geoff Zinderdyne. The author identifies himself as Geoff from Western Canada, which fits. The work also looks very much that of the Geoff I knew at McGill. He's a very bright fellow, much too bright to be anyone's disciple, and his exegesis is always solid and unlike anyone else's you're likely to encounter. If you are a slave of the orthodoxy of any school, Geoff's work may be challenging. If you like people who think for themselves, his work will probably be stimulating. If you are the kind of person who likes to think for yourself, why would you read anyone else's work? -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy The University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 10 11:28:34 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 10 11:37:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Empty universe References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> Message-ID: <005e01c56de1$d4878e90$2930cece@charlie> If you are the > kind of person who likes to think for yourself, why would you read > anyone else's work? > > -- > Richard P. Hayes > Department of Philosophy > The University of New Mexico ============================= Richard--really! This comment is just silly. Still trying to stir the pot, eh? Joanna From halc at xprt.net Fri Jun 10 14:24:09 2005 From: halc at xprt.net (Hal Cooper) Date: Fri Jun 10 14:33:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> Denizens, I am looking at The Songs of Khakhyap Dorje from a book titled The Rain of Wisdom. It was published by Shambala back in 1980. One passage goes like this: "These naive words are like the buzzing of a bee. Although they irritate the ears of the father jetsun, Your son, with overwhelming longing, Offers this song of nonsense words; please think of me with compassion. In general, this body endowed with the eight freedoms and the ten favorable circumstances Is more excellent than the Wish-fulfilling Gem. Obtaining this body, I know it to be the power of unperverted merit." What are the Eight freedoms and The Ten Favorable Circumstances? Are these lists particular to Tibetan Buddhism? So, is it saying this human rebirth is more excellent than a Gem that could grant any wish? Human rebirth trumps the Wish-fulfilling Gem. From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jun 10 14:40:51 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Jun 10 14:47:45 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Empty universe In-Reply-To: <005e01c56de1$d4878e90$2930cece@charlie> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> <005e01c56de1$d4878e90$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42A9FAD3.60804@unm.edu> Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > Richard--really! This comment is just silly. It is a relief when every now and then someone reads a comment exactly as it was meant to be read. It restores my confidence in the possibility of exegesis and authorial intent. I'm not sure how many people noticed that Congress just approved a budget that will cut funding to NPR and PBS in half AND put limits on how much these two outfits can raise through private fund-raising. That's the bad news. The good news is that federal funding to buddha-l has not been cut at all. -- Richard Hayes From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri Jun 10 15:15:06 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri Jun 10 15:41:44 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances In-Reply-To: <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> Message-ID: In message <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma>, Hal Cooper writes >What are the Eight freedoms and The Ten Favorable Circumstances? Are these >lists particular to Tibetan Buddhism? So, is it saying this human rebirth is >more excellent than a Gem that could grant any wish? Human rebirth trumps >the Wish-fulfilling Gem. Briefly, they are as follows: Eight Freedoms from rebirth in a hell from rebirth as a hungry ghost from rebirth as an animal from rebirth as a long-lived god from rebirth as a human in a barbarian region from rebirth as a human in a place where a buddha has not appeared from rebirth as a human with impaired faculties from rebirth as a human with wrong views Ten Endowments a human rebirth birth in a peaceful land having all one's faculties not having committed a serious crime having faith in the Buddha's teaching a buddha has appeared a buddha has taught the teachings remain the teachings are followed others have love in their hearts -- Metta Mike Austin From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Fri Jun 10 15:44:35 2005 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Jun 10 15:59:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com><42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> Message-ID: <008401c56e05$9bdef820$3b8279a5@Dan> Hal asks: > What are the Eight freedoms and The Ten Favorable Circumstances? >From Soothill's Chinese-English Buddhist Dictionary: ??? a??a-vimok?a, mok?a, vimukti, mukti. Liberation, deliverance, freedom, emancipation, escape, release?in eight forms; also ??? and cf. ?? and ???. The eight are stages of mental concentration: (1) ????????? Liberation, when subjective desire arises, by examination of the object, or of all things and realization of their filthiness. (2) ????????? Liberation, when no subjective desire arises, by still meditating as above. These two are?deliverance by meditation on impurity, the next on?purity. (3) ????????? Liberation by concentration on the pure to the realization of a permanent state of freedom from all desire. The above three "correspond to the four Dhy?nas". (Eitel.) (4) ?????? Liberation in realization of the infinity of space, or the immaterial. (5) ?????? Liberation in realization of infinite knowledge. (6) ??????Liberation in realization of nothingness, or nowhereness. (7) ???????? Liberation in the state of mind where there is neither thought nor absence of thought. These four arise out of abstract meditation in regard to desire and form, and are associated with the ???. (8) ?? ???? Liberation by means of a state of mind in which there is final extinction, nirv??a, of both sensation, vedan?, and consciousness, sa?j??. The "Ten Favorable Circumstances" is less clear. There are a number of potential candidate lists, but without knowing the original term, it would be hard to decide which one. Possibilities include the achieving 10 paramitas, etc. Dan Lusthaus From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jun 10 15:58:29 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Jun 10 16:07:46 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances In-Reply-To: References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> Message-ID: <1118440709.8004.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 22:15 +0100, Mike Austin wrote: > Eight Freedoms > from rebirth in a hell > from rebirth as a hungry ghost > from rebirth as an animal > from rebirth as a long-lived god > from rebirth as a human in a barbarian region > from rebirth as a human in a place where a buddha has not appeared > from rebirth as a human with impaired faculties > from rebirth as a human with wrong views Damn! I was born in a barbarian country where no buddha has ever appeared, I am legally blind without eyeglasses, and I have never managed to have the right view on anything of importance. Should I consider becoming a Mormon? > Ten Endowments > birth in a peaceful land > having all one's faculties > the teachings are followed > others have love in their hearts Damn again! I was born in a war-mongering nation that keeps cutting its education budgets so that schools no longer have all their faculties, where everybody preaches but nobody practices, and few would recognize love even if it sneaked into their heart. Four strikes and you're out, eh? -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 10 19:54:00 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat Jun 11 07:09:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com><42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu><001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> <008401c56e05$9bdef820$3b8279a5@Dan> Message-ID: <001901c56e29$0a9b94d0$d3794e51@zen> Dear Dan, I think the reason why you were needlessly led astray here is because the misleading way in which the term was translated and unfamiliarity with the context. As you may realize now, these eight have nothing to do with the 8 vimok.sas -- I belive that they are mentioned in the Gandavyuha and Ratna-guna-sancaya as the a.s.ta-ak.sa.na-viniv.rtti or variants. FYI, the ten favourable circumstances are called the da'sa-sampad. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Sat Jun 11 10:38:04 2005 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat Jun 11 10:48:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com><42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu><001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma><008401c56e05$9bdef820$3b8279a5@Dan> <001901c56e29$0a9b94d0$d3794e51@zen> Message-ID: <001901c56ea3$f1652730$669079a5@Dan> Stephen, Thanks for the Sanskrit. As always, context is everything. Dan From alex at chagchen.org Sat Jun 11 10:58:51 2005 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Sat Jun 11 12:35:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com><42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> Message-ID: <00eb01c56ea8$43484ce0$a1d4869f@m4k8m7> Hal Cooper wrote: > I am looking at The Songs of Khakhyap Dorje from a book titled The > Rain of Wisdom. It was published by Shambala back in 1980. One of my favourites. I try to read it once every couple of years. > One passage goes like this: (Sorry for snipping words of Khakhyap Dorje!) > In general, this body endowed with the eight freedoms and the ten > favorable circumstances > Is more excellent than the Wish-fulfilling Gem. > Obtaining this body, > I know it to be the power of unperverted merit." > > What are the Eight freedoms and The Ten Favorable Circumstances? Are > these lists particular to Tibetan Buddhism? So, is it saying this > human rebirth is more excellent than a Gem that could grant any wish? > Human rebirth trumps the Wish-fulfilling Gem. Mike has already given you the list, although I am more familiar with an interpretation of the last one (where Mike says "others having love in their hearts") is that there are those who will support practice. Specifically, that might mean that there are sponsors or almsgivers through whose aid one might, for instance, go into a long retreat. But I think you were looking for a bit of context. In the Kagyu systems (and I have been led to believe that this is much the same in the other Tibetan schools) formal engagement with the teaching starts exactly there. Leaving aside the "special preliminaries" we begin with the ordinary preliminaries. The four ordinary preliminaries are also known as the "four thoughts to turn the mind". The first of these four is the teaching on precious human birth. (The others are impermanence and death, the effects of karma and the ubiquity of suffering.) The teaching on precious human birth has three parts: recoginising it, appreciating its value and appreciating its scarcity. Recognising it is where the eight freedoms and ten endowments come in. However, it is not saying that a "human rebirth is more excellent than a Gem that could grant any wish". It is saying that *the tiny proportion of human births that meet the 18 conditions above* are more excellent than a Gem that could grant any wish. That is the second part of the teaching on precious human birth: *if it is used properly* it gives an opportunity to achieve liberation. For any other purposes, the mythical gem would come in damned handy. Expressed in lists like this it may seem dry, but it does, in its context, have a certain cogency and clarity, and the formal structure makes it relatively easy to rehearse it all inwardly and in that way to take it to heart at, say, the beginning of a long retreat. Mike's "peaceful land" is a point that I have heard as "central country", and probably does call for interpretation. If we take "peaceful land" as a working interpretation, then of course Richard's comment that he was "born in a war-mongering nation" etc. may well be true, but is not quite what is meant here. One might indeed wonder whether America is a place one would choose to be reborn in, but the point here is, I think, entirely down to earth and practical rather than moral: do you have the opportunity to study, meditate, or whatever else it is you think your practice requires, or are you constantly at risk of being bombed out of your village, having limbs cut off by people who don't like you, being starved out of your home and so forth? I would hazard that most Americans would be in the first group. One out of 18 is a start, I suppose. All the best Alex W From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jun 11 13:20:46 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Jun 11 13:28:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Recollections of Coyote available on-line Message-ID: <1118517646.6936.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Dear denizens of buddha-l, For those of you who like to take walks down memory lane, I have put together a collection of squibs (mostly my own, unfortunately) contributed to buddha-l during the first decade of its existence. The file is in Portable Document Format (PDF) with internal links making navigation easier. At the end of the file there is an index with active links to the essays. The collection has a preface explaining why I used to write under the name Coyote and why the collection is entitled Does Coyote Have No-Buddha Nature? Reflections of an Internet Trickster. The squibs are arranged into chapters by subject matter. Each chapter begins with an introductory essay that provides some context. The chapters are entitled as follows: Introduction to Internet Buddhism Buddhist and Western Philosophy Dharma and Science Psychotherapy and Religion Scholars and Practitioners: Thinkers and Meditators Society and Morality Karma and Rebirth To be or not to be: Non-self and Nirvana Dreams and Fables Humor and Satire Be warned: The file is large (1207596 bytes). If you have a fast cable connection, figure on waiting 27 seconds for the file to load. If you have an old 1200 bps modem, it could take about a week. The whole file is somewhere around 285 pages, so printing it would require enough ink to warrant another invasion of an oil-rich country. Print--and invade countries--at your own risk. To save trees, and invasions, the best bet would be just to read it on your computer screen, even though doing so will probably result in your getting cataracts. If interested, you can download this monstrosity (but not the ego with overweening pride that created it) by going to the download page on my website: http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/download.html#coyote -- Richard P. Hayes Albuquerque, New Mexico From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sat Jun 11 15:03:56 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sat Jun 11 15:08:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] 8 Freedoms and 10 Favorable Circumstances In-Reply-To: <00eb01c56ea8$43484ce0$a1d4869f@m4k8m7> References: <001201c56c3f$f0480b80$2930cece@charlie> <1118278479.5542.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050609015408.01df2258@mailbag.com> <42A8C24A.9090107@unm.edu> <001201c56dfa$5ba9bf70$767e66d1@dharma> <00eb01c56ea8$43484ce0$a1d4869f@m4k8m7> Message-ID: In message <00eb01c56ea8$43484ce0$a1d4869f@m4k8m7>, Alex Wilding writes > >Mike has already given you the list, although I am more familiar with an >interpretation of the last one (where Mike says "others having love in their >hearts") is that there are those who will support practice. Specifically, >that might mean that there are sponsors or almsgivers through whose aid one >might, for instance, go into a long retreat. Yes. My listing was very brief. These ten are divided into two groups of five where the first relate to oneself and the five relate to others. In his discourse, Pabongka Rinpoche says: "The fifth endowment relating to others - that people in general have love in their hearts - means that benefactors, etc., provide favourable conditions for Dharma practitioners, and that people in general are kind-hearted." The context of this discourse was monastic. Therefore one may expect the emphasis to be on sponsors and almsgivers. >Mike's "peaceful land" is a point that I have heard as "central country", >and probably does call for interpretation. I agree. The frontiers of a country can be restless. If one is central, even in a country that wages war around the world, then one experiences a peaceful land. The poor blighters in other countries would, of course, have a different view of 'the land' - your land. On 'peaceful land', though, Pabongka Rinpoche is a bit more specific: "Being born in a central land means - since only remnants of the Dharma remain - being reborn in a place that has at least four members of the Sangha" There appears to be an overlap amongst these freedoms and endowments. So birth in a barbarian region he describes as: "If you are born in a remote, that is, barbarian region, you will not hear a word of the Dharma." In this sense, I think we need to interpret 'remote' not geographically but as out of touch or communication - perhaps isolated, or isolationist even. Here, I think barbarian doesn't mean rough or uncultured, but just not cultured in a way conducive to dharma practice. -- Metta Mike Austin From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jun 11 15:43:16 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Jun 11 15:48:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Recollections of Coyote available on-line In-Reply-To: <1118517646.6936.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118517646.6936.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118526196.9544.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 13:20 -0600, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > If interested, you can download this monstrosity (but not the ego with > overweening pride that created it) by going to the download page on my > website: http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/download.html#coyote Thanks to all of you who notified me that you had problems downloading the file. I believe the "permission denied" problem has now been rectified. (It took breaking the wrists of my bodyguard.) From wdkish81 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 06:29:49 2005 From: wdkish81 at yahoo.com (Bill Kish) Date: Sun Jun 12 06:38:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <200506111800.j5BI0P3U009560@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does anyone know if the Ekottara Aagama has an equivalent somewhere in the Paali Canon, and whether there is an English translation for it (either from the Aagama, or from the Nikaaya source if it exists) ? Thanks. --------- Bill Kish __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dhammanando at csloxinfo.com Sun Jun 12 09:18:22 2005 From: dhammanando at csloxinfo.com (dhammanando@csloxinfo.com) Date: Sun Jun 12 09:29:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Ekottara Agama Message-ID: <1118589502.42ac523ea67fe@webmail.csloxinfo.com> Bill Kish: > Does anyone know if the Ekottara Aagama has an equivalent > somewhere in the Paali Canon, and whether there is an > English translation for it (either from the Aagama, or from > the Nikaaya source if it exists) ? Its equivalent is the Anguttara Nikaaya, of which the PTS translation is entitled the _Book of Gradual Sayings_ (5 vols. E.M. Hare & F.L. Woodward, 1932-6). There is also a three-booklet Anguttara anthology published by the Buddhist Publication Society of Kandy. Bhikkhu Bodhi is currently working on a new translation of the whole collection. As for the Ekottaraagama, I vaguely recall hearing of some project to translate this and the other Aagamas, but I don't know any details about it. Best wishes, Dhammanando From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 08:54:10 2005 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Sun Jun 12 11:49:40 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200506111800.j5BI0P3U009560@ns1.swcp.com> <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4526ba440506120754773d4084@mail.gmail.com> 2005/6/12, Bill Kish : Does anyone know if the Ekottara Aagama has an equivalent somewhere in the Paali Canon, and whether there is an English translation for it (either from the Aagama, or from the Nikaaya source if it exists) ? There's no literal equivalent, but in general (not considering style, order and extent of detailedness) the EkottarAgama corresponds with the Anguttara Nikaya. Check out G.C. Pande's 'Studies in the Origins of Buddhism', pp. 230-247, 1993 (reprint), Motilal Banarsidass, for a comparison. If you like them scanned, send me a private e-mail. Online you'll find www.accesstoinsight.org , which has a selection of translations. Cheers, Stefan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050612/fcbb565c/attachment-0001.html From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 09:33:56 2005 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Sun Jun 12 11:49:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Recollections of Coyote available on-line In-Reply-To: <1118526196.9544.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118517646.6936.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118526196.9544.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4526ba440506120833d9409a1@mail.gmail.com> Dear Richard, I've been skimming through your envigorating writings on Buddhism and I was wondering: 'Gee, this man knows so much about a multitude of aspects of Buddhism, that he must've either become estranged through the demythologizing power of knowledge, or he has only become more and more confident about the worth of studying it all as a purpose in life'. Which one is it? Greetings, Stefan 2005/6/11, Richard P. Hayes : > > On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 13:20 -0600, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > > If interested, you can download this monstrosity (but not the ego with > > overweening pride that created it) by going to the download page on my > > website: http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/download.html#coyote > > Thanks to all of you who notified me that you had problems downloading > the file. I believe the "permission denied" problem has now been > rectified. (It took breaking the wrists of my bodyguard.) > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050612/a76d3a80/attachment-0001.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jun 12 12:02:20 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sun Jun 12 12:08:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1118599340.5283.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-12 at 05:29 -0700, Bill Kish wrote: > Does anyone know if the Ekottara Aagama has an equivalent > somewhere in the Paali Canon, and whether there is an > English translation for it (either from the Aagama, or from > the Nikaaya source if it exists) ? Yes and no. The Pali canon has a collection called Anguttara- nik?ya, which roughly corresponds to the Ekottar?gama in form. Lamotte reports in Histoire du bouddhisme that the contents are not the same. The two collections do not have the same number of discourses, and even though one can find some titles that are the same in both collections, it turns out that the contents of the discourses are not the same. So I guess you could say the Pali canon has a counterpart, but not an equivalent, of the Ekottar?gama. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jun 12 12:43:01 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sun Jun 12 12:48:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Recollections of Coyote available on-line In-Reply-To: <4526ba440506120833d9409a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118517646.6936.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118526196.9544.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4526ba440506120833d9409a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1118601781.5283.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-12 at 17:33 +0200, Stefan Detrez wrote: > I've been skimming through your envigorating writings on Buddhism and > I was wondering: 'Gee, this man knows so much about a multitude of > aspects of Buddhism, that he must've either become estranged through > the demythologizing power of knowledge, or he has only become more and > more confident about the worth of studying it all as a purpose in > life'. Which one is it? Neither of the above. My knowledge of almost everything is much too superficial to have any power at all--even the power to demythologize. The closer I get to retirement, the more aware I am of how little of value I have accomplished in any field, except to stay out of the way of promising students. The lack of personal achievement does not deter me from wondering whether I might have been able to accomplish even less if I had stayed with the first love of my live, mathematics, or if I had stayed with the romantic vision of my young adulthood of being a starving playwright cranking out bitter polemics against the evils of free enterprise and the banalities of North American popular culture. Where do I stand with Buddhism? To be quite honest, I have no idea. My lovely wife assures me I am not a Buddhist at all, but more of a cultural misfit who try without success to see things from a non- American perspective. (Beware of wives, for they always know the truth about who one really is.) She is probably right, for, alas, life has not furnished me with enough dukkha to enable me to see Buddhism as more than an interesting exercise in narcissistic negativity and interminable whining, followed by all manner of improbable wishful thinking about pure lands and instant enlightenment. If I believed in rebirth, I might be able to say that at least my unsystematic and undisciplined studies have planted some Dharmic seeds to harvest in a future life. As it stands, I must say I have been so happy during my life that I have not even made it to the first noble truth, let alone the ones that enable one to get beyond it. All that notwithstanding, thank you for your kind words, Stefan. Richard From tatelman at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 12 19:40:31 2005 From: tatelman at sympatico.ca (J Tatelman) Date: Sun Jun 12 21:56:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <1118599340.5283.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1118599340.5283.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Not really an answer to your question, but the journal Buddhist Studies Review has published numerous translations from the Chinese Ekottaraagama. Joel Tatelman. On Jun 12, 2005, at 2:02 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Sun, 2005-06-12 at 05:29 -0700, Bill Kish wrote: > >> Does anyone know if the Ekottara Aagama has an equivalent >> somewhere in the Paali Canon, and whether there is an >> English translation for it (either from the Aagama, or from >> the Nikaaya source if it exists) ? From Bshmr at aol.com Sun Jun 12 20:20:55 2005 From: Bshmr at aol.com (Bshmr@aol.com) Date: Sun Jun 12 21:56:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Recollections of Coyote Message-ID: <13c.152d7fb7.2fde4787@aol.com> >: wondering: 'Gee, this man knows so much about a multitude of aspects of Buddhism, that he must've either become estranged through the demythologizing power of knowledge, or he has only become more and more confident about the worth of studying it all as a purpose in life'. Which one is it? > Framed as the enemy does. Perhaps the answer will be both and empty. >: I believe the "permission denied" problem has now been rectified. (It took breaking the wrists of my bodyguard.) > The 'tongs' hereabout have taken to breaking little toes, instead of wrists or knee-caps. The victim experiences pain when seeking their own balance, can still care for themselves as well as others, and heals in six weeks. Being able to hobble out and about, say to work, does spread the teaching. So far, in all but one local instance, this training has been determined to be accidental; in the sole exception, alms collection by the limping servant increased, the master gained two pounds, so there was no harm. Richard, AKA rbb -- Make noise, leave sign; or, not. @1986 PS: Thanks. From brburl at mailbag.com Sun Jun 12 23:23:33 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Sun Jun 12 23:28:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: References: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1118599340.5283.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613002227.031dfad0@mailbag.com> At 08:40 PM 6/12/2005, you wrote: >Not really an answer to your question, but the journal Buddhist Studies >Review has published numerous translations from the Chinese Ekottaraagama. Would you be kind enough to provide an address to this journal? Do they have a website (which might be a pun, if Russell Webb still publishes it)? From tatelman at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 13 05:37:07 2005 From: tatelman at sympatico.ca (J Tatelman) Date: Mon Jun 13 05:38:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613002227.031dfad0@mailbag.com> References: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1118599340.5283.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050613002227.031dfad0@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <2339af83cbd70c45130df324471eb61c@sympatico.ca> Bruce, When I last saw a copy of the Buddhist Studies Review, Russell Webb still published it, but I have not had access to a good academic library for several years, and therefore don't know anything about the journal's current status. Apologies for such partial information.... Joel. On Jun 13, 2005, at 1:23 AM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > At 08:40 PM 6/12/2005, you wrote: >> Not really an answer to your question, but the journal Buddhist >> Studies Review has published numerous translations from the Chinese >> Ekottaraagama. > > > Would you be kind enough to provide an address to this journal? Do > they have a website (which might be a pun, if Russell Webb still > publishes it)? > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > Joel Tatelman Philologica Canadensis 1-169 Patterson Avenue Ottawa, ON Canada K1S 1Y4 Tel.: 613.234.8678 E-mail: tatelman@sympatico.ca From libris at singnet.com.sg Mon Jun 13 20:06:01 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (Piya Tan) Date: Mon Jun 13 21:05:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama References: <20050612122949.51327.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1118599340.5283.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050613002227.031dfad0@mailbag.com> <2339af83cbd70c45130df324471eb61c@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <42AE3B89.7E183738@singnet.com.sg> Joel, Russell communicated to me he has retired Sukhi Piya J Tatelman wrote: > Bruce, > > When I last saw a copy of the Buddhist Studies Review, Russell Webb > still published it,  but I have not had access to a good academic > library for several years, and therefore don't know anything about the > journal's current status. > > Apologies for such partial information.... > > Joel. > > On Jun 13, 2005, at 1:23 AM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > > > At 08:40 PM 6/12/2005, you wrote: > >> Not really an answer to your question, but the journal Buddhist > >> Studies Review has published numerous translations from the Chinese > >> Ekottaraagama. > > > > > > Would you be kind enough to provide an address to this journal? Do > > they have a website (which might be a pun, if Russell Webb still > > publishes it)? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > Joel Tatelman > Philologica Canadensis > 1-169 Patterson Avenue > Ottawa, ON > Canada K1S 1Y4 > > Tel.: 613.234.8678 > E-mail: tatelman@sympatico.ca > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From thbarnes at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 23:29:41 2005 From: thbarnes at gmail.com (Hayden) Date: Tue Jun 14 07:26:10 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Abhisamayalamkara Message-ID: I am looking for an English translation of Maitreya's Abhisamayalamkara (The Ornament of Realizations), preferably in .PDF format. The commentary by Master Kedrup Tenpa Dargye would be a bonus. Any suggestions? Is Eugene Obermiller's "Analysis of Abhisamayalamkara" the best way to go? Hayden Barnes thbarnes@gmail.com From rupert.gethin at bristol.ac.uk Tue Jun 14 05:56:06 2005 From: rupert.gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Tue Jun 14 07:26:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Studies Review In-Reply-To: <200506131800.j5DI0PeE010972@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200506131800.j5DI0PeE010972@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: Dear All, Joel Tatelman commented: >When I last saw a copy of the Buddhist Studies Review, Russell Webb >still published it, but I have not had access to a good academic >library for several years, and therefore don't know anything about the >journal's current status. Some years ago Buddhist Studies Review was adopted by the UK Association for Buddhist Studies as the Journal of the Association. Russell Webb continued to edit it until last year when he retired. I am acting as interim editor for the two issues of the 2005 vol (the first of which is due out soon). The current subscription is ?15 per annum to members of the Association; for details on how to join visit http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bsa.shtml. Rupert -- Dr Rupert Gethin Senior Lecturer in Indian Religions University of Bristol Department of Theology and Religious Studies 3 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TB, UK http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/THRS/CBS-home.html Telephone: 0117 928 7760 Fax: 0117 929 7850 E-mail: Rupert.Gethin@bristol.ac.uk From wdkish81 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 09:30:59 2005 From: wdkish81 at yahoo.com (Bill Kish) Date: Tue Jun 14 09:38:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <200506131800.j5DI0PeD010972@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20050614153059.4550.qmail@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Joel Tatelman: > > Not really an answer to your question, but the journal Buddhist > Studies Review has published numerous translations from the > Chinese Ekottaraagama. Thanks - I will try and locate this journal. I was able to find two partial translations the A.nguttara Nikaaya, one by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi, and the other by various translators at http://www.accesstoinsight.org. The only complete translation I found was by E. M. Hare, which fortunately had the passage I was looking for. --------- Bill Kish __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Tue Jun 14 09:09:06 2005 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Tue Jun 14 09:56:46 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Abhisamayalamkara Message-ID: <6E40CFECF624CE4A9C48A19D875531DA12ECDA@mtshasta.nws.oregonstate.edu> Not a translation, but John Makransky's book, Buddhahood Embodied, is an excellent study of the text. Jim Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of Hayden Sent: Mon 6/13/2005 10:29 PM To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] Abhisamayalamkara I am looking for an English translation of Maitreya's Abhisamayalamkara (The Ornament of Realizations), preferably in .PDF format. The commentary by Master Kedrup Tenpa Dargye would be a bonus. Any suggestions? Is Eugene Obermiller's "Analysis of Abhisamayalamkara" the best way to go? Hayden Barnes thbarnes@gmail.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050614/01a74727/attachment.html From srhodes at boulder.net Tue Jun 14 09:23:07 2005 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Tue Jun 14 09:56:47 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Abhisamayalamkara References: Message-ID: <42AEF65B.7060305@boulder.net> Dear Hayden, First of all, I know of nothing in pdf format. Secondly, the old war horse is Edward Conze's translation: Abhisamayalankara, published by the Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente in Rome in 1954. There is another translation (by Karl Brunnhoelzl I believe, I haven't seen it yet) in Thrangu Rinpoche's The Ornament of Clear Realization, recently published in New Zealand by Zhyisil Chokyi Ghatsal Charitable Trust Publications; I know that it is currently in stock at Snow Lion Publications (www.snowlionpub.com). However, a translation of the root verses by themselves is not particularly edifying. Therefore commentaries are necessary. Thrangu Rinpoche's book is supposedly only about 230 pages long (from the information which I have); this does not sound particularly in depth. Obermiller's book is a translation of the root verses interwoven with translations from various commentaries (primarily Geluk, I suspect). It is very helpful in that regard. Unfortunately it has one great flaw: it is not complete. In fact, what has been printed seems to come to a screeching halt in mid-sentence! I believe that this gets you into, but not through, the fourth of eight chapters of AA. Obermiller gave a brief overview of this material in his Prajnaparamita in Tibetan Buddhism. Finally, I believe that the Master's Program at the Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa in Pomaia, Italy has extensive materials on AA (running to thousands of pages). They will sell these to you on a CD-ROM. You can get their e-mail address by searching within the website of FPMT (www.fpmt.org). If you can't find it, please feel free to contact me off list. Sincerely, Steven Rhodes Hayden wrote: >I am looking for an English translation of Maitreya's >Abhisamayalamkara (The Ornament of Realizations), preferably in .PDF >format. The commentary by Master Kedrup Tenpa Dargye would be a bonus. >Any suggestions? Is Eugene Obermiller's "Analysis of >Abhisamayalamkara" the best way to go? > >Hayden Barnes >thbarnes@gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From wdkish81 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 09:59:59 2005 From: wdkish81 at yahoo.com (Bill Kish) Date: Tue Jun 14 10:08:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Ekottara Agama In-Reply-To: <200506121755.j5CHtriN025215@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20050614155959.83903.qmail@web30505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dhammanando: > > Its equivalent is the Anguttara Nikaaya, of which the PTS > translation is entitled the _Book of Gradual Sayings_ (5 > vols. E.M. Hare & F.L. Woodward, 1932-6). There is also a > three-booklet Anguttara anthology published by the Buddhist > Publication Society of Kandy. Bhikkhu Bodhi is currently > working on a new translation of the whole collection. Thank you - I was able to locate both. Althought it is not finished, Bhikkhu Bodhi published part of it on AltaMira Press. My question stems from a desire to locate as much of the Lam Rim teachings as possible in canonical sources, and section 29 in "The Book of Eights" (Hare gives the title as "Untimely") seems to be a source for the "Precious Human Birth topic that Mike/Alex et al are discussing right now. I'm guessing here, but it seems likely that it came into the Lam Rim via the Agaama and not from the Paali sources, and thus it would be interesting (for me) to learn of any differences between the two that are related to Lam Rim topics. --------- Bill Kish __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Tue Jun 14 10:37:00 2005 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Tue Jun 14 10:49:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Abhisamayalamkara Message-ID: <6E40CFECF624CE4A9C48A19D875531DA12ECE0@mtshasta.nws.oregonstate.edu> Alex Naughton also did a translation of one of Haribhadra's commentaries under the title, Classic Mahayana Soteriology. It was published in Japan. I just moved and my books are it boxes, but I can look up the complete reference if you like. I think it was basically his dissertation from Wisconsin. Jim Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of Steven Rhodes Sent: Tue 6/14/2005 8:23 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Abhisamayalamkara Dear Hayden, First of all, I know of nothing in pdf format. Secondly, the old war horse is Edward Conze's translation: Abhisamayalankara, published by the Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente in Rome in 1954. There is another translation (by Karl Brunnhoelzl I believe, I haven't seen it yet) in Thrangu Rinpoche's The Ornament of Clear Realization, recently published in New Zealand by Zhyisil Chokyi Ghatsal Charitable Trust Publications; I know that it is currently in stock at Snow Lion Publications (www.snowlionpub.com). However, a translation of the root verses by themselves is not particularly edifying. Therefore commentaries are necessary. Thrangu Rinpoche's book is supposedly only about 230 pages long (from the information which I have); this does not sound particularly in depth. Obermiller's book is a translation of the root verses interwoven with translations from various commentaries (primarily Geluk, I suspect). It is very helpful in that regard. Unfortunately it has one great flaw: it is not complete. In fact, what has been printed seems to come to a screeching halt in mid-sentence! I believe that this gets you into, but not through, the fourth of eight chapters of AA. Obermiller gave a brief overview of this material in his Prajnaparamita in Tibetan Buddhism. Finally, I believe that the Master's Program at the Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa in Pomaia, Italy has extensive materials on AA (running to thousands of pages). They will sell these to you on a CD-ROM. You can get their e-mail address by searching within the website of FPMT (www.fpmt.org). If you can't find it, please feel free to contact me off list. Sincerely, Steven Rhodes Hayden wrote: >I am looking for an English translation of Maitreya's >Abhisamayalamkara (The Ornament of Realizations), preferably in .PDF >format. The commentary by Master Kedrup Tenpa Dargye would be a bonus. >Any suggestions? Is Eugene Obermiller's "Analysis of >Abhisamayalamkara" the best way to go? > >Hayden Barnes >thbarnes@gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050614/4fcfdc40/attachment.htm From wdkish81 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 18:44:15 2005 From: wdkish81 at yahoo.com (Bill Kish) Date: Tue Jun 14 18:49:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Abhisamayalamkara In-Reply-To: <200506141652.j5EGqTo1027638@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20050615004415.63796.qmail@web30515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jim Blumenthal: > > Alex Naughton also did a translation of one of Haribhadra's > commentaries under the title, Classic Mahayana Soteriology. > It was published in Japan. I just moved and my books are it > boxes, but I can look up the complete reference if you like. > I think it was basically his dissertation from Wisconsin. His translation also appeared in the "Shin Buddhist Comprehensive Research Institute Annual Memoirs 9" under the title "Haribhadra and his Sphut.aartha" (this is Haribhadra's small commentary on the AA). Naughton's translation is not complete, however. He only translated the first seven chapters so as to avoid the controversies concerning the nature of the Dharmakaya. But since the latter subject is the main focus of Makransky's book, the two works compliment each other nicely. --------- Bill Kish __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From srhodes at boulder.net Tue Jun 14 20:11:07 2005 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Tue Jun 14 20:19:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Abhisamayalamkara References: <20050615004415.63796.qmail@web30515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42AF8E3B.6080908@boulder.net> It is not "also"; this is the publication to which Jim Blumenthal referred (without specificity). Steven Rhodes Bill Kish wrote: >Jim Blumenthal: > > >>Alex Naughton also did a translation of one of Haribhadra's >>commentaries under the title, Classic Mahayana Soteriology. >>It was published in Japan. I just moved and my books are it >>boxes, but I can look up the complete reference if you like. >>I think it was basically his dissertation from Wisconsin. >> >> > >His translation also appeared in the "Shin Buddhist Comprehensive >Research Institute Annual Memoirs 9" under the title "Haribhadra >and his Sphut.aartha" (this is Haribhadra's small commentary on >the AA). Naughton's translation is not complete, however. He >only translated the first seven chapters so as to avoid the >controversies concerning the nature of the Dharmakaya. But since >the latter subject is the main focus of Makransky's book, the two >works compliment each other nicely. > >--------- >Bill Kish > > > > > >__________________________________ >Discover Yahoo! >Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050614/6afb8f13/attachment.html From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 14 20:53:15 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue Jun 14 21:09:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Ekottara Agama References: <20050614155959.83903.qmail@web30505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003001c57156$f519ebd0$ca684e51@zen> Bill Kish wrote: > I'm guessing here, but it seems likely that it came into > the Lam Rim via the Agaama and not from the Paali sources, You are right that these teachings would not have come from Pali sources but they are also unlikely to have come directly from one of the Ekottara-aagamas since none were ever translated into Tibetan. One must assume a secondary source mediating -- if, that is, there is a genuine connection. There are many Mahayana sources which would have been available -- Longchenpa, for example, quotes many on this topic in his Shing-rta Chen-po (which I have translated into English). I have taken the liberty to send you a copy of the relevent chapter off-list. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From stephen.hopkins at ukonline.co.uk Fri Jun 17 09:50:06 2005 From: stephen.hopkins at ukonline.co.uk (Stephen Hopkins) Date: Fri Jun 17 10:15:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet Message-ID: Dear Buddha-l'ers Interesting article here on contemporary Tibet, by Jamyag Norbu: http://www.opendemocracy.net/arts/tibet_2600.jsp Regards, Steve Hopkins From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 17 13:08:27 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 17 13:09:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet References: Message-ID: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> > Dear Buddha-l'ers > > Interesting article here on contemporary Tibet, by Jamyag Norbu: > > http://www.opendemocracy.net/arts/tibet_2600.jsp > > Regards, > Steve Hopkins ======================= Fascinating article.....and a cultural conundrum: Norbu wrote: "...What is mind-boggling in retrospect is the absolute faith of the public and even the Dalai Lama in these predictions that never even came remotely close to being realised." "...His Holiness himself, in an interview in an Italian journal, declared that he did not regard the account of Shambala as symbolic or legendary and believed that the apocalyptic events prophesied would actually come to pass." [I don't know about Shambala, but I know plenty of Americans including myself who sense that a great devolution is not so far ahead, if the right means are not adopted in the body politic. So I share HHDL's pessimism, if that's what it is.] together with: "...Probably this would be a good time as any to mention that I personally do not reject the existence of deities, ghosts and oracles. I think that what people regard as real are to a great degree conditioned by the worldview of the period they live in. " and "...There is a theory that material phenomena, even physical laws, are conditioned by the belief systems of the period. While if we enter the world of quantum physics even the most bizarre event that we can think of has a chance of happening. Even something like the molecules of my body falling apart and assembling again in the next room." Well, there's the new age quantum mechanics stuff all over again. I see little difference between HHDL's occasional claims of belief, and this author's, in that both of them are caught between two radically different cultures. The Dalai Lama has also cautioned people many times of the Buddha's injunction to experience for oneself, not to take "whatever it is" on someone else's word or text (this could include his official Oracle, for that matter). But the predicament for HHDL might personally be a bit different than it is for Norbu, but it's also paradoxically the same --a conflict of cultural ideas and identities. The Dalai Lama as grand leader/ruler (even) of the Tibetans in exile must not appear when speaking with co-religionists (or anticipating their presence in some audience) on certain occasions to appear to be too radical or eccentric about religion, as his credibility as their leader would suffer. He must maintain as much Tibetan cultural identity as possible. In secular appearances before non-Tibetan audiences, he can appear to be much more modern (which I suspect he actually is). It's a problem of public role and cultural identification. Same for Norbu, only in his case it's probably a personal (rather than public) issue, of wondering how much of his cultural identity to shed in favor of some kind of modernity. If a Tibetan decides to shuck every vestige of traditional cultural beliefs, what might be left? Only the language? At least Norbu can take heart in the fact that historically Tibetans always had their skeptics. Joanna From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri Jun 17 17:32:48 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri Jun 17 17:39:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: In message <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie>, jkirk writes >But the predicament for HHDL might personally be a bit >different than it is for Norbu, but it's also paradoxically the same --a >conflict of cultural ideas and identities. The Dalai Lama as grand >leader/ruler (even) of the Tibetans in exile must not appear when speaking >with co-religionists (or anticipating their presence in some audience) on >certain occasions to appear to be too radical or eccentric about religion, >as his credibility as their leader would suffer. He must maintain as much >Tibetan cultural identity as possible. In secular appearances before >non-Tibetan audiences, he can appear to be much more modern (which I suspect >he actually is). It's a problem of public role and cultural identification. More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of compassion. A Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings and would thus need to appear in whatever way is of benefit. -- Metta Mike Austin From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 18 01:20:08 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat Jun 18 08:41:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> Mike Austin schreef: > In message <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie>, jkirk > writes > >> But the predicament for HHDL might personally be a bit >> different than it is for Norbu, but it's also paradoxically the same --a >> conflict of cultural ideas and identities. The Dalai Lama as grand >> leader/ruler (even) of the Tibetans in exile must not appear when >> speaking >> with co-religionists (or anticipating their presence in some >> audience) on >> certain occasions to appear to be too radical or eccentric about >> religion, >> as his credibility as their leader would suffer. He must maintain as >> much >> Tibetan cultural identity as possible. In secular appearances before >> non-Tibetan audiences, he can appear to be much more modern (which I >> suspect >> he actually is). It's a problem of public role and cultural >> identification. > > > More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of compassion. A > Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings and would thus need > to appear in whatever way is of benefit. > This is hypocrite crap of the worst kind, devotion. Who has no opinion of his own just should keep his mouth shut. If the D.L. has an opinion, but hasn't the guts to speak up, he's just week. Nobody benefits from hearing sweet talk and lies. -- Erik From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sat Jun 18 09:16:48 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sat Jun 18 09:20:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In message <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl>, Erik Hoogcarspel writes >Mike Austin schreef: > >> More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of compassion. >>A Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings and would thus >>need to appear in whatever way is of benefit. >> >This is hypocrite crap of the worst kind, devotion. Who has no opinion >of his own just should keep his mouth shut. If the D.L. has an opinion, >but hasn't the guts to speak up, he's just week. Nobody benefits from >hearing sweet talk and lies. Oh dear, Erik. Unless you can offer some cogent explanation of what this 'hypocrite crap' is and how you identify it from what I wrote, one could surmise that a little crap has found its way into your own eyes. -- Metta Mike Austin From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Sat Jun 18 12:18:25 2005 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Sat Jun 18 09:33:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001301c57432$1edcc9a0$7dee6480@chass> Here in Toronto a journalist once asked DL "do you really believe that you are the reincarnated Avelokiteshvara, God(dess) of Compassion?" DL replied "some days I think I am, and some days I think I'm not" with his well loved giggle. When I told a Tibetan monk about this, he was appalled. "Oh, that's just what he tells the Western Press". But I, Gad, believe that DL believes that what he told the journalist was absolute Truth. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Hoogcarspel" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet > Mike Austin schreef: > > > In message <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie>, jkirk > > writes > > > >> But the predicament for HHDL might personally be a bit > >> different than it is for Norbu, but it's also paradoxically the same --a > >> conflict of cultural ideas and identities. The Dalai Lama as grand > >> leader/ruler (even) of the Tibetans in exile must not appear when > >> speaking > >> with co-religionists (or anticipating their presence in some > >> audience) on > >> certain occasions to appear to be too radical or eccentric about > >> religion, > >> as his credibility as their leader would suffer. He must maintain as > >> much > >> Tibetan cultural identity as possible. In secular appearances before > >> non-Tibetan audiences, he can appear to be much more modern (which I > >> suspect > >> he actually is). It's a problem of public role and cultural > >> identification. > > > > > > More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of compassion. A > > Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings and would thus need > > to appear in whatever way is of benefit. > > > This is hypocrite crap of the worst kind, devotion. Who has no opinion > of his own just should keep his mouth shut. If the D.L. has an opinion, > but hasn't the guts to speak up, he's just week. Nobody benefits from > hearing sweet talk and lies. > > -- > > > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 18 11:04:46 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Jun 18 11:10:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie><42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> <001301c57432$1edcc9a0$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <004401c57427$d92d5320$2930cece@charlie> That's a good one. As I said, I suspect that the DL is mostly a Buddhist-style skeptic and mostly a modernist. If he had been able to remain in Tibet, my bet is that he would have modernised Tibet along lines that conformed better with the ecosystem there and the needs of the Tibetans, rather than how its being ruined by the Hans. He could have been one of the greatest "rulers" in recent history. Joanna ==================================================== > Here in Toronto a journalist once asked DL "do you really believe that you > are the reincarnated Avelokiteshvara, God(dess) of Compassion?" DL replied > "some days I think I am, and some days I think I'm not" with his well loved > giggle. When I told a Tibetan monk about this, he was appalled. "Oh, > that's just what he tells the Western Press". But I, Gad, believe that DL > believes that what he told the journalist was absolute Truth. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erik Hoogcarspel" > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 12:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet > > > > Mike Austin schreef: > > > > > In message <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie>, jkirk > > > writes > > > > > >> But the predicament for HHDL might personally be a bit > > >> different than it is for Norbu, but it's also paradoxically the > same --a > > >> conflict of cultural ideas and identities. The Dalai Lama as grand > > >> leader/ruler (even) of the Tibetans in exile must not appear when > > >> speaking > > >> with co-religionists (or anticipating their presence in some > > >> audience) on > > >> certain occasions to appear to be too radical or eccentric about > > >> religion, > > >> as his credibility as their leader would suffer. He must maintain as > > >> much > > >> Tibetan cultural identity as possible. In secular appearances before > > >> non-Tibetan audiences, he can appear to be much more modern (which I > > >> suspect > > >> he actually is). It's a problem of public role and cultural > > >> identification. > > > > > > > > > More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of compassion. A > > > Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings and would thus need > > > to appear in whatever way is of benefit. > > > > > This is hypocrite crap of the worst kind, devotion. Who has no opinion > > of his own just should keep his mouth shut. If the D.L. has an opinion, > > but hasn't the guts to speak up, he's just week. Nobody benefits from > > hearing sweet talk and lies. > > > > -- > > > > > > Erik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jun 18 12:53:43 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Jun 18 13:00:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Contemporary Tibet Message-ID: <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 11:18 -0700, Gad Horowitz wrote: > Here in Toronto a journalist once asked DL "do you really believe that you > are the reincarnated Avelokiteshvara, God(dess) of Compassion?" DL replied > "some days I think I am, and some days I think I'm not" with his well loved > giggle. About ten years ago I saw a similar interview on CBC. At that time, when asked the same question, HHDL just laughed and said nothing at all. He just looked at the reporter and waited patiently for the next question. I can't imagine a better answer to such a question. Once when HHDL was in Montreal at a political workshop, he said he thought the whole institution of the Dalai Lama should be scrapped, because it is undemocratic and no longer useful. The philosopher Charles Taylor was at this meeting, and he said "Don't be too quick to get rid of a system that produces leaders of your calibre." That exchange got right to the heart of an ambivalence many of us have about democracy. I just didn't know where I stood on the issue. I suppose I agree most with Aristotle's observation that democracy is the worst of the good forms of government and the best of the bad forms of government. Because democracy is so cumbersome, it is bad because it slows down a benevolent dictator (as the current Dalai Lama could be if he had a country to govern and if he chose to be a dictator, neither of which is the case), but it is good because it retards a tyrant (although not as much as some of us would like). I don't know what Aristotle would think about democracies, such as the one in the USA, that have become a farce because of the appallingly misinformed and undereducated citizenry. Speaking of HHDL, have any of you read the article about a British Buddhist named Steven Lane (not the same fellow who contributes to buddha-l from time to time) and his criticism (character assassination?) of HHDL? It's available on numerous sites, one of which is http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1996/7/17_2.html -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sat Jun 18 15:02:25 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sat Jun 18 15:10:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Richard P. Hayes writes >Speaking of HHDL, have any of you read the article about a British >Buddhist named Steven Lane (not the same fellow who contributes to >buddha-l from time to time) and his criticism (character assassination?) >of HHDL? It's available on numerous sites, one of which is >http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1996/7/17_2.html This is old news now, but I guess the point you are making is that it says more about H.H. Dalai Lama's antagonists that it does about him. -- Metta Mike Austin From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jun 18 15:53:30 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Jun 18 16:00:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: References: <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119131610.14154.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:02 +0100, Mike Austin wrote: > This is old news now, but I guess the point you are making is that it > says more about H.H. Dalai Lama's antagonists that it does about him. Exactly. While I think there is no one in the history of the universe who cannot be legitimately criticized for something or other, it seems to me that much of the criticism of the Dalai Lama is either silly or petty or both. (Say, wasn't Silly Petty a favourite toy a few decades ago?) His job is close to impossible, and there is no way a person in his position could satisfy everyone. He is a strong advocate of modernizing the Tibetan educational system (both secular and monastic) in India, but he has all kinds of conservatives barking at his heels who want to preserve the old-time (and often horribly old-fashioned) religion. As he said once said (at that same meeting in Montreal I wrote about earlier) "The Tibetan people worship me like a god, but they rarely follow my advice." (Come to think of it, can't this be said of pretty well ALL gods?) -- Richard Hayes "God protect me from your followers!" --American bumper sticker From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 19 04:21:31 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun Jun 19 04:30:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: References: <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42B5472B.3090603@xs4all.nl> Mike Austin schreef: > In message <1119120823.13401.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Richard > P. Hayes writes > >> Speaking of HHDL, have any of you read the article about a British >> Buddhist named Steven Lane (not the same fellow who contributes to >> buddha-l from time to time) and his criticism (character assassination?) >> of HHDL? It's available on numerous sites, one of which is >> http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1996/7/17_2.html > > > This is old news now, but I guess the point you are making is that it > says more about H.H. Dalai Lama's antagonists that it does about him. > I wish the D.L. had a worthier opponent. But I fear hte Tibetan mind is to small for dualism. -- Erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 19 04:10:21 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun Jun 19 04:50:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42B5448D.8030607@xs4all.nl> Mike Austin schreef: > In message <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl>, Erik Hoogcarspel > writes > >> Mike Austin schreef: >> >>> More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of compassion. >>> A Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings and would thus >>> need to appear in whatever way is of benefit. >>> >> This is hypocrite crap of the worst kind, devotion. Who has no >> opinion of his own just should keep his mouth shut. If the D.L. has >> an opinion, but hasn't the guts to speak up, he's just week. Nobody >> benefits from hearing sweet talk and lies. > > > Oh dear, Erik. Unless you can offer some cogent explanation of what > this 'hypocrite crap' is and how you identify it from what I wrote, > one could surmise that a little crap has found its way into your own > eyes. > Simple: your words express that you know for sure the exact nature of the DL's intentions and that those intentions are an unchanging thing. This is not backed up by logic or scientific inverstigation, but by dogmatic belief. Expressing these words have a twofold purpose: to spread this dogamtic belief and to make yourself look good. I think it's just na?ve and hypocritical to think that someone can always and from every perspective be pure good and without faults in this world. This the consequence of relativism or emptiness. -- Erik From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sun Jun 19 06:52:06 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sun Jun 19 07:20:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Contemporary Tibet In-Reply-To: <42B5448D.8030607@xs4all.nl> References: <012701c5736f$f181b1e0$2930cece@charlie> <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl> <42B5448D.8030607@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In message <42B5448D.8030607@xs4all.nl>, Erik Hoogcarspel writes >Mike Austin schreef: > >> In message <42B3CB28.7040200@xs4all.nl>, Erik Hoogcarspel >> writes >> >>> Mike Austin schreef: >>> >>>> More fundamentally, I tend to see this as a 'problem' of >>>>compassion. A Bodhisattva would seek to be of help to all beings >>>>and would thus need to appear in whatever way is of benefit. >>>> >>> This is hypocrite crap of the worst kind, devotion. Who has no >>>opinion of his own just should keep his mouth shut. If the D.L. has >>>an opinion, but hasn't the guts to speak up, he's just week. Nobody >>>benefits from hearing sweet talk and lies. >> >> >> Oh dear, Erik. Unless you can offer some cogent explanation of what >>this 'hypocrite crap' is and how you identify it from what I wrote, >>one could surmise that a little crap has found its way into your own eyes. >> >Simple: your words express that you know for sure the exact nature of >the DL's intentions and that those intentions are an unchanging thing. >This is not backed up by logic or scientific inverstigation, but by >dogmatic belief. Expressing these words have a twofold purpose: to >spread this dogamtic belief and to make yourself look good. >I think it's just na?ve and hypocritical to think that someone can >always and from every perspective be pure good and without faults in >this world. This the consequence of relativism or emptiness. Just as I thought, Erik. I wrote none of those things. You accuse me of knowing things that I couldn't possibly know, and in the same paragraph you say things that you couldn't possibly know. If one points a finger, there are three fingers pointing back at oneself. I find that positive attitudes to others help me to reduce dukka, while acknowledging that I don't actually know anything for certain. This is, to my mind, a pragmatic way of dealing with things. If I want to 'know' how things really are, I don't create obstacles of disturbing emotions. That, I think, would ensure failure. I find negative attitudes towards others disturb my peace of mind, and of no benefit whatsoever. -- Metta Mike Austin From andy.ward at ihug.co.nz Mon Jun 20 14:12:15 2005 From: andy.ward at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Ward) Date: Mon Jun 20 14:40:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? Message-ID: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> Hello, Was the Mahayana taught by the Buddha, or was it invented after his death? The Dalai Lama asserts in one of his books that it was in fact taught by the Buddha, but he does not go into any more detail than that. Other books I have looked at say the Mahayana emerged 500 or so years after the Buddha's death. Andrew Ward. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 20 15:45:37 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 20 15:50:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 08:12 +1200, Andrew Ward wrote: > Was the Mahayana taught by the Buddha, or was it invented after his > death? A huge furor was created in Japan in the mid-19th century when a celebrated scholar claimed that Mahayana sutras were composed many centuries after the Buddha's death. This scholar, as I recall, felt compelled to resign from his academic post for creating such a stir. Apparently textual and historical criticism of Buddhist texts was no better received in Japan than textual and historical criticism of biblical texts was received in Europe. It was perceived by many as a hostile attack on believers by people who had gone over to the dark side. Although making such a claim would not create as big a panic today as it did in the mid-1800s, one can still sense a certain amount of tension between some historians and some Buddhists. > The Dalai Lama asserts in one of his books that it was in fact > taught by the Buddha, but he does not go into any more detail than that. That is the official position of traditional Mahayana teachers. > Other books I have looked at say the Mahayana emerged 500 or so years > after the Buddha's death. That is what most textual historians (including Mahayana Buddhist scholars in both Asia and the West) would say. Perhaps your question merits a counter-question: what difference does it make to you personally what the answer to your question turns out to be? -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From andy.ward at ihug.co.nz Mon Jun 20 16:39:05 2005 From: andy.ward at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Ward) Date: Mon Jun 20 17:02:39 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> Richard P. Hayes wrote: >On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 08:12 +1200, Andrew Ward wrote: > > > >>Was the Mahayana taught by the Buddha, or was it invented after his >>death? >> >> > >A huge furor was created in Japan in the mid-19th century when a >celebrated scholar claimed that Mahayana sutras were composed many >centuries after the Buddha's death. This scholar, as I recall, felt >compelled to resign from his academic post for creating such a stir. >Apparently textual and historical criticism of Buddhist texts was no >better received in Japan than textual and historical criticism of >biblical texts was received in Europe. It was perceived by many as a >hostile attack on believers by people who had gone over to the dark >side. > >Although making such a claim would not create as big a panic today as it >did in the mid-1800s, one can still sense a certain amount of tension >between some historians and some Buddhists. > > > >> The Dalai Lama asserts in one of his books that it was in fact >>taught by the Buddha, but he does not go into any more detail than that. >> >> > >That is the official position of traditional Mahayana teachers. > > > Do they have this position because they disagree with the scholars on the dates that the various writings were created? Or do they have this position because they find hints of Mahayana teachings in the original Pali scriptures? >>Other books I have looked at say the Mahayana emerged 500 or so years >>after the Buddha's death. >> >> > >That is what most textual historians (including Mahayana Buddhist >scholars in both Asia and the West) would say. > >Perhaps your question merits a counter-question: what difference does it >make to you personally what the answer to your question turns out to be? > > > Of course, whether you accept or reject a teaching should be based on it's content, not on it's author. However, in cases where faith is required to follow a teaching until you have the neccessary understanding of it, then it is easier if you already have respect for the author's other works. If someone reads a teaching about aspiring to become a Bodhisattva and decides this is a good course of action, they need to have faith that what is contained in the teaching is actually possible. From brburl at mailbag.com Mon Jun 20 17:52:17 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Mon Jun 20 18:00:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620183827.03936ee0@mailbag.com> At 04:45 PM 6/20/2005, you wrote: >one can still sense a certain amount of tension >between some historians and some Buddhists. Tension is an under statement. On E-sangha, former Buddha-L resident Namdrol's (aka Malcolm Smith) present place of residence, I once innocently referred to the composition of Mahayana sutras and I was severely abused by the Mahayana literalist/fundamentalists, and never mind that I would also refer to the composition of the Pali suttas. Where do these people think these sutras come from? Divine revelation, no doubt. Despite its numerous failings Paul Williams' book, BUDDHIST THOUGHT, gives an excellent discussion of the origins of the Mahayana, though it will hardly be satisfying to those whose faith is grounded in a literalism. As Gombrich subtitled his excellent book, HOW BUDDHISM BEGAN, "The Conditioned Genesis of the Early [and we may add: Middle and Late] Teachings"; that seems to be the truth of the matter. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 20 17:56:18 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 20 18:00:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 10:39 +1200, Andrew Ward wrote: > >That is the official position of traditional Mahayana teachers. > > > Do they have this position because they disagree with the scholars on > the dates that the various writings were created? Or do they have this > position because they find hints of Mahayana teachings in the original > Pali scriptures? Hardly any traditional Mahayana teachers have any knowledge of the Pali canon, since it was not translated into Chinese or Tibetan. Parts of the Sanskrit (or perhaps some vernacular Indian language) canons that were approximate counterparts of the Pali canon were translated into Chinese and Tibetan, but they tend to be ignored, mostly because of a strong prejudice against them. (Just last weekend I heard a veteran Zen practitioner say "Why would anyone study inferior teachings when we have access to superior Mahayana teachings?") So I don't think the answer is that traditional Mahayana teachers find hints of Mahayana teachings in any of the ?r?vakay?na canons. Rather, I think the traditional Mahayana teachers subscribe to the view that the Mahayana teachings were spoken by the Buddha and then transmitted "underground" for several centuries until people were ready for them. > Of course, whether you accept or reject a teaching should be based on > it's content, not on it's author. Yes, and the content of any teaching should be accepted when it turns out to be useful to accept it. Only you can decide how useful a teaching is to you. > However, in cases where faith is required to follow a teaching until > you have the neccessary understanding of it, then it is easier if you > already have respect for the author's other works. The problem I see in this way of looking at things is that if you don't have the necessary understanding of a teaching, there is no way you can follow it anyway. Faith will not come to your aid, because faith itself is generated by seeing that a teaching is working, and a teaching works only after you understand it. So faith is the end point, not the starting point. The whole issue of who the author of a teaching is is a distraction. My advice would be not to worry about that, unless you are an historian and want to speculate on how things got to be as they are. > If someone reads a teaching about aspiring to become a Bodhisattva and > decides this is a good course of action, they need to have faith that > what is contained in the teaching is actually possible. Again, I would disagree with you on that. First, I don't think it's at all necessary to believe that something is possible in order to strive in the direction of it. In Buddhism you need not have any idea where you are going; it is sufficient to know what you want to get away from. If you are not happy being selfish, you move away from selfishness. You can do this even if you have no idea whether it's possible to become perfectly altruistic. Bodhicitta is just moving in the direction of altruism. Could you be more altruistic than you now are? If so, you need know nothing else. Have you found that by cultivating kindness through contemplative exercises you can move away from selfishness, even if only for a while? If so, then you have all the faith you need to keep doing those exercises. Knowing who invented the exercises will not help you follow them any more than knowing who wrote the software you are using to read this e-mail message will help you send an intelligent reply. Did the historical Buddha teach anything about bodhicitta? Damned if I know. Is bodhicitta worth cultivating? As Krishnamurti was fond of saying to such questions, "Find out." -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rjones at cm.ksc.co.th Mon Jun 20 18:33:15 2005 From: rjones at cm.ksc.co.th (Randall Jones) Date: Mon Jun 20 19:04:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> At 06:56 AM 6/21/2005, Richard Hayes wrote: > The problem I see in this way of looking at things is that if you don't > have the necessary understanding of a teaching, there is no way you can > follow it anyway. You can do quite a lot of mathematics without understanding it, just by learning method. Is not something similar true in Buddhism? Or, more generally, what level of understanding is "necessary" for a Buddhist practice? Randall Jones rjones@cm.ksc.co.th randall.jones@lannaist.ac.th From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 20 19:13:18 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 20 19:20:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620183827.03936ee0@mailbag.com> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050620183827.03936ee0@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <1119316398.6690.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 18:52 -0500, Bruce Burrill wrote: > On E-sangha, former Buddha-L resident Namdrol's (aka Malcolm Smith) > present place of residence, I once innocently referred to the > composition of Mahayana sutras and I was severely abused by > the Mahayana literalist/fundamentalists, and never mind that I would also > refer to the composition of the Pali suttas. Bruce, I'm shocked. Didn't you realize that the Buddhist canons, like the Vedas, are eternal and therefore had no author? There is a car parked on a street near my house that has a bumper sticker saying "I love Jesus, but can't stand his fans." As time has worn on (and worn me out), I have come to feel pretty much the same way about the Buddha. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 20 19:18:22 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 20 19:21:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> Message-ID: <1119316702.6690.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 07:33 +0700, Randall Jones wrote: > You can do quite a lot of mathematics without understanding it, just by > learning method. Is not something similar true in Buddhism? If one does not understand the method of doing mathematics, one cannot do it. What is not necessary in applied mathematics is an understanding of pure mathematics. Buddhism, I would argue, does not have the same distinction--the one between pure and applied--that we find in mathematics. > Or, more generally, what level of understanding is "necessary" for a > Buddhist practice? One must understand the method. There is nothing else in Buddhism to understand. There's really not an awful lot of theory to worry one's troubled head about. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 20:38:20 2005 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Mon Jun 20 20:40:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620183827.03936ee0@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <20050621023820.66716.qmail@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Bruce Burrill wrote: > Despite its numerous failings Paul Williams' book, BUDDHIST THOUGHT,....< What are those failings? Thanks, Rahula __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050620/c30bfa9c/attachment-0001.htm From andy.ward at ihug.co.nz Mon Jun 20 20:02:05 2005 From: andy.ward at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Ward) Date: Mon Jun 20 21:21:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42B7751D.4060702@ihug.co.nz> Richard P. Hayes wrote: >On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 10:39 +1200, Andrew Ward wrote: > > > >>>That is the official position of traditional Mahayana teachers. >>> >>> >>> >>Do they have this position because they disagree with the scholars on >>the dates that the various writings were created? Or do they have this >>position because they find hints of Mahayana teachings in the original >>Pali scriptures? >> >> > >Hardly any traditional Mahayana teachers have any knowledge of the Pali >canon, since it was not translated into Chinese or Tibetan. Parts of the >Sanskrit (or perhaps some vernacular Indian language) canons that were >approximate counterparts of the Pali canon were translated into Chinese >and Tibetan, but they tend to be ignored, mostly because of a strong >prejudice against them. (Just last weekend I heard a veteran Zen >practitioner say "Why would anyone study inferior teachings when we have >access to superior Mahayana teachings?") So I don't think the answer is >that traditional Mahayana teachers find hints of Mahayana teachings in >any of the ?r?vakay?na canons. Rather, I think the traditional Mahayana >teachers subscribe to the view that the Mahayana teachings were spoken >by the Buddha and then transmitted "underground" for several centuries >until people were ready for them. > > > >>Of course, whether you accept or reject a teaching should be based on >>it's content, not on it's author. >> >> > >Yes, and the content of any teaching should be accepted when it turns >out to be useful to accept it. Only you can decide how useful a teaching >is to you. > > > That's a good point. I have a tendency to reject things if I cannot prove them, without even considering whether or not they would be useful to me. (I use the word 'prove' loosely here) >>However, in cases where faith is required to follow a teaching until >>you have the neccessary understanding of it, then it is easier if you >>already have respect for the author's other works. >> >> > >The problem I see in this way of looking at things is that if you don't >have the necessary understanding of a teaching, there is no way you can >follow it anyway. Faith will not come to your aid, because faith itself >is generated by seeing that a teaching is working, and a teaching works > > I thought that was proof, not faith. >only after you understand it. So faith is the end point, not the >starting point. The whole issue of who the author of a teaching is is a >distraction. My advice would be not to worry about that, unless you are >an historian and want to speculate on how things got to be as they are. > > > >>If someone reads a teaching about aspiring to become a Bodhisattva and >>decides this is a good course of action, they need to have faith that >>what is contained in the teaching is actually possible. >> >> > >Again, I would disagree with you on that. First, I don't think it's at >all necessary to believe that something is possible in order to strive >in the direction of it. In Buddhism you need not have any idea where you >are going; it is sufficient to know what you want to get away from. If >you are not happy being selfish, you move away from selfishness. You can > > Someone may be selfish and unhappy. However it might not be clear to them that the cause of their unhappiness is selfishness. In this case they may follow the teaching of altruism in blind faith and once they achieve happiness they have proof that the cause of the unhappiness was selfishness. >do this even if you have no idea whether it's possible to become >perfectly altruistic. Bodhicitta is just moving in the direction of >altruism. Could you be more altruistic than you now are? If so, you need >know nothing else. > >Have you found that by cultivating kindness through contemplative >exercises you can move away from selfishness, even if only for a while? >If so, then you have all the faith you need to keep doing those >exercises. Knowing who invented the exercises will not help you follow >them any more than knowing who wrote the software you are using to read >this e-mail message will help you send an intelligent reply. > >Did the historical Buddha teach anything about bodhicitta? Damned if I >know. Is bodhicitta worth cultivating? As Krishnamurti was fond of >saying to such questions, "Find out." > > > From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jun 20 20:12:12 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Jun 20 21:21:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> Message-ID: <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> This is a false dichotomy. If you do not understand any mathematics at all, then you would not be able to DO any mathematics at all - and if you understood all mathematics you could DO it all, too. The thing is that mathematics is so powerful that just understanding a little allows one to do a lot - so we are tempted to try to find the minimal amount of mathematics that will allow us to get by - this temptation is further exacerbated by the generally very poor quality of mathematics instruction that is available at every level - from grade school through graduate school. The thing that is so often forgotten is that mathematics is beautiful - and it is only once you've been seduced by that beauty that you can learn it for its own sake - rather than trying very hard to not learn any more than absolutely necessary in order to DO something. The same is true of Buddhism - word for word, in my opinion. - Curt Randall Jones wrote: > At 06:56 AM 6/21/2005, Richard Hayes wrote: > > > The problem I see in this way of looking at things is that if you don't > > have the necessary understanding of a teaching, there is no way you can > > follow it anyway. > > You can do quite a lot of mathematics without understanding it, just > by learning method. > > Is not something similar true in Buddhism? > > Or, more generally, what level of understanding is "necessary" for a > Buddhist practice? > > Randall Jones > rjones@cm.ksc.co.th > randall.jones@lannaist.ac.th > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jun 20 20:25:10 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Jun 20 21:21:30 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <42B77A86.40406@cola.iges.org> While Mahayana texts probably don't contain word for word teachings of the historical Buddha, there is good reason to consider the possibility (probability in my opinion) that they are in fact based on oral teachings that predate the written texts - possibly by centuries. Some could in fact be directly based on oral teachings of the historical Buddha that were not committed to writing until centuries after his death. On the other hand - the fairy tale that the Buddha taught the Avatamsaka Sutra while seated under the Bodhi tree (and that everything else is just for those who need something more dumbed down), is neither more nor less satisfying than the fairy tale that the Pali cannon contains the "real" teachings of the Buddha, while the Mahayana Sutras are just "made up". - Curt Andrew Ward wrote: > Hello, > > Was the Mahayana taught by the Buddha, or was it invented after his > death? The Dalai Lama asserts in one of his books that it was in fact > taught by the Buddha, but he does not go into any more detail than > that. Other books I have looked at say the Mahayana emerged 500 or so > years after the Buddha's death. > > Andrew Ward. From rjones at cm.ksc.co.th Mon Jun 20 20:40:21 2005 From: rjones at cm.ksc.co.th (Randall Jones) Date: Mon Jun 20 21:21:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119316702.6690.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <1119316702.6690.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621092956.03722b60@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> At 08:18 AM 6/21/2005, Richard wrote: >One must understand the method. There is nothing else in Buddhism to >understand. There's really not an awful lot of theory to worry one's >troubled head about. Theory is what allows me (RJ) to make a rational decision to begin to practice (something). If there's no theory, what motivates starting to practice? Someone says it feels good? Seems to me (but maybe this is idiosyncratic) that if there is no theory, then there must be faith. Peace, Randall rjones@cm.ksc.co.th randall.jones@lannaist.ac.th Later thought: I suppose there could be individual theorizing without there being "Buddhist" theory, and this could motivate a particular individual to begin. And then, down the (practice) path a bit, the theorizing might be put aside. (Maybe that is my story, not sure--I generally credit putting theory aside to getting older.) From rjones at cm.ksc.co.th Mon Jun 20 21:54:37 2005 From: rjones at cm.ksc.co.th (Randall Jones) Date: Mon Jun 20 22:01:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> Thanks Curt. > The thing that is so often > forgotten is that mathematics is beautiful - and it is only once > you've been seduced by that beauty that you can learn it for its > own sake - rather than trying very hard to not learn any more > than absolutely necessary in order to DO something. > The same is true of Buddhism - word for word, in my opinion. I liked your post. And you're right that I have sometimes/often viewed practice as a means to a desirable end. And, yes, I have even tried to "calculate" the minimum effort I might get away with. I've done Buddhism as decor, too, though it seems I've read warnings about it. I'd think, though, that it might start one down the path just as well as theorizing might. Question: Are you suggesting that the beauty of Buddhism is what grounds practice? Peace, Randall From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 20 22:20:41 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 20 22:21:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B7751D.4060702@ihug.co.nz> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B7751D.4060702@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <1119327642.8408.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 14:02 +1200, Andrew Ward wrote: > >The problem I see in this way of looking at things is that if you don't > >have the necessary understanding of a teaching, there is no way you can > >follow it anyway. Faith will not come to your aid, because faith itself > >is generated by seeing that a teaching is working, and a teaching works > > > > > I thought that was proof, not faith. What I am describing is what it Buddhism is called ?raddh?, which some people translate as faith. In a sense, it is a bit like faith, as when we say "I have faith in your ability to get a good grade in calculus." Obviously, one doesn't have blind faith in someone to do a good job. Rather, one has reason to believe, based on past experience, that the person will do a good job. That is exactly what ?raddh? is. One has confidence, based on one's past experiences, that certain practices will lead to good results. Since life is uncertain, one can never be absolutely sure that what has worked before will work again, but at least one has good reason to place one's bets on continuing to do what has worked well before. That is ?raddh?. It is quite different from the theological virtue of faith as it is defined in mainstream Christianity, which sees faith as a grace that no one can cultivate without divine aid. As I understand it, ?raddh? is a middle path between the extremes of Christian faith and mathematical proof. It is more like what Stephen Toulmin calls a justified warrant to believe, rather like the confidence a jury has in evidence presented in a court trial. > Someone may be selfish and unhappy. However it might not be clear to > them that the cause of their unhappiness is selfishness. In this case > they may follow the teaching of altruism in blind faith and once they > achieve happiness they have proof that the cause of the unhappiness was > selfishness. I don't think one ever has proof. Rather, as I said above, one has reason to continue doing what turns out to work. What drives us to try a new strategy is more akin to desperation guided by blind luck than to blind faith. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 20 22:28:01 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 20 22:31:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> Message-ID: <1119328081.8408.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 10:54 +0700, Randall Jones wrote: > Question: Are you suggesting that the beauty of Buddhism is what grounds > practice? It would be interesting to hear how different people answer this. I suspect it depends a lot of temperament. Some folks probably find Buddhism beautiful. Curt does, it would seem. I don't. I find it pretty effective for what it was designed to do. I also find a shovel pretty effective for what it was designed to do, but I rarely find myself thinking of shovels as beautiful. Similarly, while I love mathematics, I would never in a million years think of it as beautiful. Fun, yes. Interesting, yes. Useful, yes. But calling it beautiful is going too far. But then I can't think of much of anything I would call beautiful. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From mike at lamrim.org.uk Tue Jun 21 02:03:51 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Tue Jun 21 02:11:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119328081.8408.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <1119328081.8408.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <+h6ppJBnn8tCFw+A@clara.net> In message <1119328081.8408.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Richard P. Hayes writes >On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 10:54 +0700, Randall Jones wrote: > >> Question: Are you suggesting that the beauty of Buddhism is what grounds >> practice? > >It would be interesting to hear how different people answer this. I >suspect it depends a lot of temperament. Some folks probably find >Buddhism beautiful. Curt does, it would seem. I don't. I find it pretty >effective for what it was designed to do. I also find a shovel pretty >effective for what it was designed to do, but I rarely find myself >thinking of shovels as beautiful. Similarly, while I love mathematics, I >would never in a million years think of it as beautiful. Fun, yes. >Interesting, yes. Useful, yes. But calling it beautiful is going too >far. But then I can't think of much of anything I would call beautiful. I tend to agree. To me, 'beauty' is associated with something unknown - something mystical even. As such, I find it the antithesis of dharma. But I wonder whether it is just my choice of words. Mathematics can, at times, be what I would describe 'elegant'. I think that could also apply to Buddhism, i.e. simple, natural, uncontrived and no nonsense. -- Metta Mike Austin From r.m.hogendoorn at umail.leidenuniv.nl Tue Jun 21 00:53:20 2005 From: r.m.hogendoorn at umail.leidenuniv.nl (Rob Hogendoorn (Leiden University)) Date: Tue Jun 21 08:21:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> In "From the Academy: The Buddhist and the Buddhologist" (Triycle Summer 1995 p. 84-85) Donald Lopez gives a bit more detail on the Dalai Lama's stance vis-a-vis the Buddha teaching Mahayana sutras: "During the seminar, three students who were completing dissertations on Indian Buddhism made brief presentations to His Holiness. They explained how nineteenth-century scholars of Buddhism had seen the Mahayana as a degeneration of the original teachings of the Buddha. Later scholars saw the Mahayana as a lay movement responding to the conservatism of the monastic establishment. After this perceived split, which occurred between the first century BCE and the first century CE, two branches of Buddhism, the Hinayana and the Mahayana, developed along parallel but divergent courses. More recently, scholars (such as Gregory Schopen) have sought to look beyond the polemical Mahayana condemnations of the Hinayana and to consider archaeological, art-historical, and epigraphical evidence. This research suggests that the Mahayana did not begin as a single and self-conscious movement, but instead was a disparate collection of ?cults of the book? centered around new sutras composed around the beginning of the Common Era. These were not lay cults, but ones in which monks and nuns were full and active participants. The evidence even suggests that so-called Mahayana and Hinayana monks often lived side by side within the same monasteries, following the same rules, engaging in many of the? same practices, throughout the history of Buddhism in India. Indeed, the first epigraphic use of the term Mahayana occurs only in the fifth century CE, some five hundred years after the composition of the first Mahayana sutras. His Holiness listened attentively to all of this, sometimes stopping and asking his translator to clarify a term or a point. But at the end of the presentation he remained silent and only spoke after I asked him what he thought about what the students had said. ?It?s something to know,? he said in Tibetan, using the term shes bya (literally, ?object of knowledge?), evoking the Buddhist aphorism ?Objects of knowledge are limitless.? That is, there are infinite things that can be known; hence it is important to consider carefully what is truly worth knowing. He went on to say that he has a friend, a great lama, who, when giving a tantric initiation, saw all the past masters of the lineage appear in the air along the ceiling of the temple. He was certain that his friend was telling the truth. He conceded that what the students had told him was interesting and that it would be good for Buddhists to have some knowledge of Western scholarship on Buddhism. However, in the end, he seemed to view Buddhist practice and Buddhist scholarship (at least of the Western variety) as ultimately irreconcilable. He told the students that if he accepted what they had told him, he would be able only to believe in the rupakaya, the form body of the Buddha that appears in the world. He could not believe in the sambhogakaya , the body of complete enjoyment, which appears to advanced bodhisattvas in the splendor of the pure lands. And he could not believe in the dharmakaya, the Buddha?s omniscient mind and its emptiness. ?If I believed what you told me,? he said, ?the Buddha would only be a nice person.? Best wishes, Rob Hogendoorn Op 20-jun-2005, om 22:12 heeft Andrew Ward het volgende geschreven: > The Dalai Lama asserts in one of his books that it was in fact > taught by the Buddha, but he does not go into any more detail than > that. From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Jun 21 07:36:58 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue Jun 21 08:21:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> Message-ID: <42B817FA.7040609@cola.iges.org> On a good day, yes. - Curt Randall Jones wrote: > > Question: Are you suggesting that the beauty of Buddhism is what > grounds practice? > > From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 21 09:13:09 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 21 09:21:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <+h6ppJBnn8tCFw+A@clara.net> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <1119303937.1351.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B74589.3020101@ihug.co.nz> <1119311779.4779.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621072905.03d528f0@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <42B7777C.9070900@cola.iges.org> <6.0.1.1.0.20050621104549.03773120@mail.cm.ksc.co.th> <1119328081.8408.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <+h6ppJBnn8tCFw+A@clara.net> Message-ID: <1119366790.5273.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 09:03 +0100, Mike Austin wrote: > I tend to agree. To me, 'beauty' is associated with something unknown - > something mystical even. As such, I find it the antithesis of dharma. My compass is somewhat different, I suppose. When I say I can't think of anything that I would call beautiful, I am thinking only of things produced by human beings. To my tastes (which I would never take as normative for others) sunrises, mountains, sunrises over mountains, the nighttime sky, cloud formations over high desert country, yucca plants and bamboo are all beautiful. Things made by human beings--buildings, laser jet printers, power grids, clay pots, paintings, automobiles, symphonies, Gregorian chants, mathematical theorems, Linux operating systems, Paninian grammatical rules, the Bible, the Qur'an, and the Buddha-dharma--are functional, interesting, engaging, sometimes practical, occasionally ornamental and usually satisfactory only for a while. They are like meals that keep one going for another few hours, whereas nature nourishes the soul forever (if I may be permitted words that are conventionally taboo in Buddhist discourse). > But I wonder whether it is just my choice of words. Mathematics can, at > times, be what I would describe 'elegant'. I think that could also apply > to Buddhism, i.e. simple, natural, uncontrived and no nonsense. Yes, these matters do just amount to choices of words. They are not matters of fact or truth but of taste and preference. That said, I am in complete agreement with your choice of words. Others no doubt have other tastes. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jun 21 16:33:26 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Jun 21 16:41:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <000901c576b1$3df4f5c0$2930cece@charlie> .................. ?If I [HHDL] > believed what you told me,? he said, ?the Buddha would only be a nice > person.? > > Best wishes, > > Rob Hogendoorn ============================ To be a truly nice person is another way of being someone freed of the three poisons. So to me that would be just fine. It would not detract from my view of the Buddha one iota. But it's quite understandable that he saw it differently. Joanna From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Wed Jun 22 11:29:55 2005 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Wed Jun 22 08:31:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz><3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> <000901c576b1$3df4f5c0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <002201c57750$02ee7c40$7dee6480@chass> would'nt this nice person be_ all _persons ad infinitum? ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkirk" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? > .................. ?If I [HHDL] > > believed what you told me,? he said, ?the Buddha would only be a nice > > person.? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Rob Hogendoorn > ============================ > To be a truly nice person is another way of being someone freed > of the three poisons. So to me that would be just fine. It would not > detract from my view of the Buddha one iota. But it's quite understandable > that he saw it differently. > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Tue Jun 21 22:11:18 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Wed Jun 22 08:55:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Received the following via email and taught it may be pertinent to this discussion. Any idea of the source of the sutra? W.F. Wong ============================================= Subject: The Buddha Speaks the Cancer Healing Sutra Introduction All of the Worlds great religions believe in the immense curative power contained in the Human Spirit energized by singleness of benevolent purpose. No earthly physical or mental disease can withstand a concerted, highly focused onslaught unleashed by a loving human spirit. A Mantra is a group of spiritually special words which, if recited repeatedly with great spiritual energy, may be employed to generate love and ward off or eradicate evil and disease. We Buddhist offer you the following supremely powerful and transforming mantra which can save people from the terrible scourge of cancer. Chant this mantra with faith and love until it becomes part of your very being. It is our gift to you. Da-Zhi-ta, E-lan-di, E-lan-mi, Shi-li-bei, Shi-li-Shi-li, Mo-jie-shi-Zhi, San-po-ba-dou, Suo-ha. What follows is a translation of the Buddhist scripture (or sutra) from which the mantra comes. In the spirit of Buddha we wish you and all sentient beings a loving heart and a healthy body. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha Speaks the Cancer Healing Sutra Thus have I heard. At one time the Buddha was in Bamboo-Grove Park in the city of Rajagriha. Accompanying Him were five hundred leading monks. Many of the monks were afflicted with malignancies. They were emaciated and suffering in pain and agony for days and nights. Venerable Ananda observed this situation and went to seek out the Buddha. After prostrating before the Buddha's feet, Ananda stood up and spoke, World-Honored One, many monks now residing in Rajagriha are afflicted with malignancies. They are emaciated and suffering in pain and agony all day and all night. World-Honored One, how can they be helped? At that time, the Buddha spoke to Ananda, Listen to this Cancer-Healing Sutra. Read it, memorize it, recite it and propagate it far and wide. There will be a healing of cancers, including those caused by wind, heat, and yin elements, combinations of these three elements, and healing of cancers found in blood, abdomen, nose, teeth, tongue, eyes, ears, head, limbs, spine, rectum, and joints. All these cancers will dry up, fall off, and be eradicated. Healing will occur undoubtedly. Thus, read and uphold this spiritual mantra. This is the mantra: Da-Zhi-ta, E-lan-di, E-lan-mi, Shi-li-bei, Shi-li-Shi-li, Mo-jie-shi-Zhi, San-po-ba-dou, Suo-ha. Ananda, north from here is a huge snowy mountain where the great Brahman tree known as Hard-to-Conquer grows. The tree has three kinds of flowers. The first is New Growth, the second Maturity, and the third Dry and Withered. Like the flowers that dry, wither, and fall off, so too will be the fate of cancers suffered by our monks. There will be no more bleeding and no more pus formation. Pain will be uprooted, and the cancer will dry up. Furthermore, those who frequently chant this sutra will gain the knowledge of recollecting their past seven lives. Such is the accomplishment of the mantra, so-ha. This is another mantra: Da-zhi-ta, Zhan-mi-zhan-mi, She-zhan-ni, She-mo-ni, She-zhan-ni, So-ha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Published by the Purple Lotus Temple www.purplelotus.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 22 09:53:43 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 22 10:01:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz><3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl><000901c576b1$3df4f5c0$2930cece@charlie> <002201c57750$02ee7c40$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <005701c57742$9192c8b0$2930cece@charlie> Are "all" persons freed of the three poisons? i rather doubt it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gad Horowitz" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? > would'nt this nice person be_ all _persons ad infinitum? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jkirk" > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? > > >> .................. ?If I [HHDL] >> > believed what you told me,? he said, ?the Buddha would only be a nice >> > person.? >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > Rob Hogendoorn >> ============================ >> To be a truly nice person is another way of being someone freed >> of the three poisons. So to me that would be just fine. It would not >> detract from my view of the Buddha one iota. But it's quite >> understandable >> that he saw it differently. >> Joanna >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.11/26 - Release Date: 6/22/2005 > From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 22 10:33:13 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 22 10:41:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <005701c57742$9192c8b0$2930cece@charlie> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> <000901c576b1$3df4f5c0$2930cece@charlie> <002201c57750$02ee7c40$7dee6480@chass> <005701c57742$9192c8b0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <1119457993.5665.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 09:53 -0600, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > Are "all" persons freed of the three poisons? i rather doubt it I think some kleshas were spotted in or near Washington DC some time back. My hunch is that politicians are likely to be nurturing their kleshas long after everyone is is free of them. Like Joanna, my admiration of (and going for refuge to) the Buddha would not be diminished one iota (or even one mu) if the Buddha were "only" a nice guy. Who needs more in this world than guys and gals whose niceness is contagious? -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 22 10:45:23 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 22 10:51:37 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <1119458723.5665.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 12:11 +0800, Wong Weng Fai wrote: > Received the following via email and taught it may be pertinent to this > discussion. Any idea of the source of the sutra? > > W.F. Wong > > ============================================= > > Subject: The Buddha Speaks the Cancer Healing Sutra This piqued my curiosity. When my curiosity peaked, I peeked into my English-Sanskrit dictionary to see what the Sanskrit for "cancer" might be. As I suspected would be the case, all the words listed are terms for various kinds of skin sores, not for the range of internal diseases that we now collectively know as cancer. These diseases we know call cancer were unknown to the Indians, although their effects, such as death, were known. So my guess is that the mantras in the Great Cancer Sutra are merely band-aid solutions, meant to cure canker sores and mild cases of diaper rash. They are probably not as effective as a good disinfectant would be, but I suppose if you were deserted in the wilderness without a first-aid kit, a mantra wouldn't hurt anything and might keep you alive until a bear ate you. Still unable to take mantras seriously, I remain dubiously yours, Richard -- Richard Hayes *** "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for every one, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." -- William Clifford From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 22 10:57:19 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 22 11:01:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <1119457993.5665.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> <000901c576b1$3df4f5c0$2930cece@charlie> <002201c57750$02ee7c40$7dee6480@chass> <005701c57742$9192c8b0$2930cece@charlie> <1119457993.5665.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42B9986F.6020707@cola.iges.org> It is the contagiousness that is most important. I think that at any given time there are lots of nice people around - but there are very few who can manage to encourage niceness in others. Or at least there are very few whose ability to encourage niceness in others equals or matches the the Dark Forces that discourage niceness. In fact the human race seems to be at a kind of steady state in which there is little net increase or decrease in niceness. Unfortunately this is not a simple "balancing" where there are equal amounts of niceness and un-niceness - this particular steady state leaves us with an severe deficit of niceness. For my money "simply being a nice guy" is woefully inadequate in such a situation - it is necessary to find a way to tip the balance towards more overall niceness. On the other hand I would be very willing to settle for something quite short of a complete elimination of un-niceness. - Curt Richard P. Hayes wrote: >Who needs more in this world than guys and gals whose niceness >is contagious? > > > From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 22 11:33:27 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 22 11:41:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <42B9986F.6020707@cola.iges.org> References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz> <3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> <000901c576b1$3df4f5c0$2930cece@charlie> <002201c57750$02ee7c40$7dee6480@chass> <005701c57742$9192c8b0$2930cece@charlie> <1119457993.5665.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B9986F.6020707@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1119461608.6733.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 12:57 -0400, curt wrote: > It is the contagiousness that is most important. I think that at any > given time there are lots of nice people around - but there are very > few who can manage to encourage niceness in others. Or at least > there are very few whose ability to encourage niceness in others > equals or matches the the Dark Forces that discourage niceness. This has always been so, I think. It was certainly the case at the time of the Buddha. He had a remarkably small effect on the events of his day. He managed to gather 1250 disciples over the course of 45 years of teaching. (It is not uncommon these days for a fair-to-middling evangelists to gather flocks of 15,000 or more in five years.) Half of the Buddha's disciples defected at one point. One of his most influential disciples was beaten to death by thugs from another outfit. Another trusted disciple tried to kill him. His community was rocked with scandals and political failures. All said, I'm not sure the Buddha was not a counterexample to the dictum about nice guys finishing last. > For my money "simply being a nice guy" is woefully inadequate in such > a situation - it is necessary to find a way to tip the balance towards > more overall niceness. Necessary, yes. But possible? I have yet to see any evidence anywhere suggesting that there is anything rational about hope for the human race. Thank God we're only a very minor sideshow in the overall scheme of things and won't take much of anything important with us when we go out with either a bang or a whimper. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 22 13:46:15 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Jun 22 13:51:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: +AFs-Buddha-l+AF0- Mahayana taught by the Buddha? References: +ADw-42B7231F.5040806+AEA-ihug.co.nz+AD4APA-3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413+AEA-umail.leidenuniv.nl+AD4APA-000901c576b1+ACQ-3df4f5c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-002201c57750+ACQ-02ee7c40+ACQ-7dee6480+AEA-chass+AD4APA-005701c57742+ACQ-9192c8b0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-1119457993.5665.5.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4APA-42B9986F.6020707+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4- +ADw-1119461608.6733.15.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4- Message-ID: <001e01c57763$1f8fc2b0$73504e51@zen> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > He managed to gather 1250 disciples over the course of 45 years of > teaching. Nice to know you were there to tot up the numbers. But if one were not there, how would one arrive at that figure with any degree of accuracy -- plausible though seems ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 22 15:21:39 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 22 15:31:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <001e01c57763$1f8fc2b0$73504e51@zen> References: +ADw-42B7231F.5040806+AEA-ihug.co.nz+AD4APA-3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413+AEA-umail.leidenuniv.nl+AD4APA-000901c576b1+ACQ-3df4f5c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-002201c57750+ACQ-02ee7c40+ACQ-7dee6480+AEA-chass+AD4APA-005701c57742+ACQ-9192c8b0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-1119457993.5665.5.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4APA-42B9986F.6020707+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4- +ADw-1119461608.6733.15.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4- <001e01c57763$1f8fc2b0$73504e51@zen> Message-ID: <1119475299.7183.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 20:46 +0100, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Nice to know you were there to tot up the numbers. But if one were not > there, how would one arrive at that figure with any degree of accuracy -- > plausible though seems ? While I'd be the first to admit that there is risk involved in believing what one reads, this figure is the one traditionally given in Buddhist texts. Use it with all the usual cautions. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From gbungo at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 15:42:39 2005 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Wed Jun 22 16:52:24 2005 Subject: Disciple Count, was Re: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddha-l Mahayana taught by the Buddha? Message-ID: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > He managed to gather 1250 disciples over the course of 45 years of > teaching. Is this only a count of the monks and nuns, or does this include the lay followers also? Sincerely, Greg Bungo From marshallarts at bigpond.com Wed Jun 22 19:07:28 2005 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate) Date: Wed Jun 22 21:57:56 2005 Subject: Disciple Count, was Re: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddha-l Mahayana taught bythe Buddha? References: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000401c5778f$ecd9c2d0$0100000a@whizzo> > Richard P. Hayes wrote: >> He managed to gather 1250 disciples over the course of 45 years of >> teaching. Hi All, The problem with numbers used in Asian writings is that often they have symbolic meanings. To say that the Buddha had 1250 disciples may not mean he had this number of disciples but that the disciples he had followed the Noble Eight Fold Path (1+2+5+0=8). Even the number 45 (9) might be symbolic of his type of teachings over the years rather than the number of years for which he taught. These are only suggestions. In this particular case, the numbers may represent other concepts and contain different messages. Then, of course, they could mean that the Buddha had 1250 disciples and that he taught for 45 years. Regards Kate From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 22 21:54:28 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 22 22:01:37 2005 Subject: Disciple Count, was Re: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddha-l Mahayana taught by the Buddha? In-Reply-To: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1119498868.5465.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 16:42 -0500, Gregory Bungo wrote: > > He managed to gather 1250 disciples over the course of 45 years of > > teaching. > > Is this only a count of the monks and nuns, or does this include the > lay followers also? Monks and nuns only. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 22 22:30:24 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 22 22:31:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Disciple Count In-Reply-To: <000401c5778f$ecd9c2d0$0100000a@whizzo> References: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000401c5778f$ecd9c2d0$0100000a@whizzo> Message-ID: <1119501024.5465.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 11:07 +1000, Kate wrote: > The problem with numbers used in Asian writings is that often they have > symbolic meanings. True. I have heard 84,000 explanations for why 108 is a sacred number in India. The one I like best is because it was a sacred number in Babylon. The Babylonians loved squares and cubes, and they were fascinated by 2 squared times 3 cubed (4x27). I am intrigued by the fact that the World Parliament of Religions opened on September 11, 1893, exactly 108 years before September 11, 2001. The earlier of these two events was called an event that rang the death knell of religious fanaticism. The second seems to have signified the resurrection of the corpse of religious fanaticism, which is alive and well and soon coming to a planet near you. But I digress. > Then, of course, they could mean that the Buddha had 1250 disciples and that > he taught for 45 years. A Buddhist text with a straightforward message? Not very likely. No, I think we have to rule out that literal interpretation as far-fetched in the extreme. Much more likely is that the figures are a numerological prediction of something really important, such as the birth of Nostradamus or the date (on the Mayan calendar) when the Hopi elders would spot the fire-breathing iron buffalo running past the mesas on the backs of two iron snakes, which signifies the end of history, preceded by five years, six months and seven days of Republican hegemony. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 22 22:55:44 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 22 23:01:37 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL Message-ID: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> Paul Williams. _Songs of Love, Poems of Sadness : The Erotic Verse of the Sixth Dalai Lama._ I. B. Tauris, this month. Good summer reading? Joanna ----------- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4073630.stm The publication of a new translation of the erotic poetry of the sixth Dalai Lama - who rejected monastic orders and indulged his passion for women and wine - has given new insight into this controversial figure of religious history. ...Tsangyang's lifestyle meant there were many who believed they could not govern effectively in his name, creating a power vacuum in Tibet. This led to two successive invasions from different parts of Mongolia - after which the Chinese army entered the area to sort out the situation. "It is really from this time that China had been able to enforce their claim - which they still have - that Tibet is an integral part of China," Mr Williams added.... From marshallarts at bigpond.com Thu Jun 23 00:15:11 2005 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate) Date: Thu Jun 23 00:21:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Disciple Count References: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000401c5778f$ecd9c2d0$0100000a@whizzo> <1119501024.5465.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <000801c577ba$e9dc79d0$0100000a@whizzo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard P. Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Disciple Count > On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 11:07 +1000, Kate wrote: > >> The problem with numbers used in Asian writings is that often they have >> symbolic meanings. > > True. I have heard 84,000 explanations for why 108 is a sacred number in > India. The one I like best is because it was a sacred number in Babylon. > The Babylonians loved squares and cubes, and they were fascinated by 2 > squared times 3 cubed (4x27). My favourite explanation for 108 is that 1+0+8 = 9, the 8 referring to the eight squares/halls of the mandala or 8 fold path and the ninth for the central square/enlightment or Buddhahood. In the case of defilements or vices, having 108 of these gives a formula whereby the mention of something unpleasant (the defilements or vices) is automatically offset by the number 9, and at the same time illustrates the way of overcoming these defilements being via the 8 squares/8 fold path to the central square. This explanation conjures up visions of a group of monks huddled around, trying to come up with enough defilements to total 108. After many days of thinking and deliberation, they make it. Then one monk thinks of one more......... Regards Kate > > I am intrigued by the fact that the World Parliament of Religions opened > on September 11, 1893, exactly 108 years before September 11, 2001. The > earlier of these two events was called an event that rang the death > knell of religious fanaticism. The second seems to have signified the > resurrection of the corpse of religious fanaticism, which is alive and > well and soon coming to a planet near you. But I digress. > >> Then, of course, they could mean that the Buddha had 1250 disciples and >> that >> he taught for 45 years. > > A Buddhist text with a straightforward message? Not very likely. No, I > think we have to rule out that literal interpretation as far-fetched in > the extreme. Much more likely is that the figures are a numerological > prediction of something really important, such as the birth of > Nostradamus or the date (on the Mayan calendar) when the Hopi elders > would spot the fire-breathing iron buffalo running past the mesas on the > backs of two iron snakes, which signifies the end of history, preceded > by five years, six months and seven days of Republican hegemony. > > -- > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 21/06/2005 > > From halc at xprt.net Wed Jun 22 14:22:12 2005 From: halc at xprt.net (Hal Cooper) Date: Thu Jun 23 09:07:37 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahayana taught by the Buddha? References: <42B7231F.5040806@ihug.co.nz><3EE46CFD-0233-461F-A930-D2516B9AB413@umail.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <00d801c57768$12c54730$b67d66d1@dharma> > Received the following via email and taught it may be pertinent to this > discussion. Any idea of the source of the sutra? > > W.F. Wong > Hal> The "cancer" mantra is pieced together from parts of several Chinese Buddhist mantras. It's worth learning the actual mantras, instead of eating mantra soup. The Purple Playground can be a dangerous place to play because some of the equipment doesn't function as advertised, and the ground is hard as a rock. Danger Will Robinson. Danger. Danger. Robot mind off. From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 23 03:27:22 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu Jun 23 09:07:40 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Disciple Count In-Reply-To: <000801c577ba$e9dc79d0$0100000a@whizzo> References: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><0 00401c5778f$ecd9c2d0$0100000a@whizzo> <1119501024.5465.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000801c577ba$e9dc79d0$0100000a@whizzo> Message-ID: My guess would be that all references to 1,250 monks derive ultimately from the account of the spread of the teaching in the Mahaavagga (Skandhaka). According to this account, the growth is in stages: 1. in the Benares region Eventually there are 60 arahat disciples (made up of the original five plus Yasa plus four of his friends plus 50 associates of Yasa). These are sent in all directions, but bring back disciples (unnumbered) to the Buddha for ordination. Just as he is leaving this area, the 30 Bhaddavaggiyas join but do not seem to become arahats. 2. in the Gayaa region The Buddha journeyed back to the area of his Awakening. There he wins over the three Kassapa brothers together with their followings of 500, 300 and 200 respectively. This gives a total of 1,000, either as a round number or assuming that the three brothers are included in the count. All became arahats after the Fire Sermon. Unlike in the case 3. in Raajagaha (Rajgir) The Buddha now journeyed on the the capital city of Magadha where the first 'monastery' is established. It is at this point that Saariputta and Moggallaana and the 250 other disciples of Sanjaya join the Buddha's following. Presumably they all became arahats fairly soon afterwards, but there is no mention of them being sent away by the Buddha. This then is the source for the figure of 1,250 monks: 500 + 300 + 200 + 250. Probably we should not take this quite literally. In oral traditions of this kind 500 is simply a literary convention meaning 'a large number'. So this is the number of disciples of the senior Kassapa brother. His two brothers are given the same number shared between them. Sanjaya as a lesser figure is given half the number of the senior Kassapa. From this point of view, 1,250 is then a way of saying that four large followings have joined the Buddha and are present. I do not know anything that would suggest any further symbolic significance here. There is also nothing here to indicate any figure for the ultimate number of disciples taught by the Buddha. The duration of the Buddha's stay in these three places is not spelt out very explicitly in the Mahaavagga, but presumably the above events cannot have taken more than a few years. Nothing indicates how many monks were taught by him during the rest of his life. If we ask the question about lay people, then we can only follow the indication given in the same account. King Bimbisaara approaches the Buddha with 12 myriads (nahuta) of brahmins and householders. The figure is obviously intended to correspond to the twelve and a half hundreds usually translated as 1,250 - presumably half a myriad would have sounded odd. What is not said is that the twelve myriads become disciples. Rather a single myriad declare themselves disciples. I would agree that this is a hint that in the earlier Buddhist period Buddhist followers considered themselves to constitute a twelfth of the population in Eastern India. I don't think we have any better figure than that. Lance Cousins From c_castell at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 05:40:41 2005 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Thu Jun 23 09:08:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Niceness In-Reply-To: <42B9986F.6020707@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <20050623114041.72002.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> I have met what I would consider very nice people, people willing to help others practically all the time, not necesarilly always "big" things but everyday helping things at anytime with enthusiasm and joy. This always surprise me......because I am not exactly like this (I may do it as well, be nice I mean but it depends of hundreds of factors......) Most of this people that I know don't do any meditation, or are buddhists and some just haven't heard about it before I said I was interested in it, but I would say that they have in common that they have the kind of behaviour that Budha will advice.....just to start with (what it is called "virtue"). I always thought that because people like this exists there is still some hope for humanity. Like Curt says, I think this niceness is not so contagious, but gives you that: hope. You see is possible to attain, and even if in most of them looks like spontaneous, may be if I was disciplinated enough, did meditation and apply all the things I think I know already.....I would be a nicer person in the future. Compassion is another important character that humanity will need I guess. I am a little more able to experience compassion than niceness, any ideas about why it is more difficult to be nice than to be compasionated? or do you think those are same aspects of the same? Catalina Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050623/e653eed8/attachment.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 23 10:20:31 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 23 10:21:47 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Niceness In-Reply-To: <20050623114041.72002.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050623114041.72002.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1119543632.5567.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 04:40 -0700, Catalina Castell-du Payrat wrote: > Like Curt says, I think this niceness is not so contagious, but gives > you that: hope. We are all surrounded all the time by a multitude of diseases. We get ill only when our immune system is compromised in some way, through fatigue or stress or an overabundance of harmful alien factors in the environment (such as Republicans). The same is probably true of catching kindness. People can be surrounded by it all the time but not be infected by it until their resistance is worn down. There is an often- repeated dictum in Buddhism that a spoon left in soup for a very long time will never taste the soup, but a tongue will get the taste if only a drop is placed on it. Reception of anything occurs only if their is something capable of receiving it. The big question is how the capacity to receive occurs. Can one cultivate it through practice, or does receptivity come about through some form of grace? If it comes about through grace, is there anything one can do to make oneself more likely to receive grace? I am still reading a long book on the the history of religion in the Americas, and just last night I read about how New England was torn asunder over this question of grace. Some argued that a person must "till the soil" so that when the seed of grace is planted, it will grow. They emphasized doing works and practices. Others felt that doing anything at all for oneself was tantamount to confessing a lack of confidence in the power of God's grace. As I was reading about New England's Christians in the 17th and 18th centuries, it occurred to me that a somewhat similar issue is very much alive among Western Buddhists in the 21st century (or whatever century we are now in--I keep losing track). > I am a little more able to experience compassion than niceness, any > ideas about why it is more difficult to be nice than to be > compasionated? or do you think those are same aspects of the same? I think they are different aspects of the same thing. Being a hopeless addict of etymology, I can't resist pointing out that the word "nice" is derived, through medieval French, from the Latin "nescius", which means ignorant. The word "nice" used to mean simple-minded, foolish, unsophisticated, ignorant. A simpleton often makes pleasant company, because one can easily take advantage of such a person. We usually think of people as nice when they don't get in our way very much. People who really help us in an active way, by pointing our our own foolishness (niceness?), usually don't seem very nice to us. So it could be, Catalina, that when you say that all the nice idiots around you have not rubbed off on you very much, it is because you have enough wisdom to see that nice people are the last thing you need to make further progress along the path. I don't care what people think of me, so long as they don't think I'm nice. Richard -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jun 23 17:36:18 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Jun 23 17:41:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Niceness References: <20050623114041.72002.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> <1119543632.5567.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <005501c5784c$5b333f60$2930cece@charlie> > > I think they are different aspects of the same thing. Being a hopeless > addict of etymology, I can't resist pointing out that the word "nice" is > derived, through medieval French, from the Latin "nescius", which means > ignorant. The word "nice" used to mean simple-minded, foolish, > unsophisticated, ignorant. A simpleton often makes pleasant company, > because one can easily take advantage of such a person. We usually think > of people as nice when they don't get in our way very much. People who > really help us in an active way, by pointing our our own foolishness > (niceness?), usually don't seem very nice to us........................ ............................. > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes ========================================= Niceness got a big hit around the end of the fifties, beginning of the sixties in this country (USA), when rebels began to notice that the prevailing ethic of the fifties middle class was being "nice." Girls and women especially were expected to be nice. This meant conventional politeness, endless smiley-ness, and not rocking anyone's boat, not holding any strong views (especially political ones), and looking forward to getting married and having 6 children, and no premarital sex. (The same was the case for both white and black middle classes at that time.) Richard's exposure of the etymology of the word is very interesting (I'm also an etymology addict)-----if it originally literally meant ignorant or simple-minded, the word evolved to extend the 'ignorant' meaning in the sense that nice people did not inquire too far, did not delve deep into serious questions of morality; unlike some Buddhists, they took everything for granted as told to them or taught to them by parents, teachers, and politicians. But IMO the word has evolved further, to mean someone who is 'ignorant' in the sense that he or she is non-discriminative according to the sense of it in Buddhism. 'Non-judgmental' would not be right because even Buddhists find occasions where being judgmental--i.e. making some kind of judgment--is skillful. I suspect that people who have defeated slavery to the three poisons to some extent are also non-discriminative in the Buddhist sense of the term, therefore, they are "truly nice." Joanna From c_castell at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 00:03:10 2005 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Fri Jun 24 00:11:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Niceness In-Reply-To: <1119543632.5567.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050624060310.34782.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> Richard wrote: Ok, they are not nice, only kind, living more the present moment than I do Ok, I have never thought you were nice, only wise and compassionated. (Yes, I am one of your nice fans........) But I really agree with you about the word "nice" It doesn't exist in spanish like this. Is the conclusion that spanish speaking people are not nice? Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050623/61e3f8fe/attachment.htm From libris at singnet.com.sg Fri Jun 24 02:26:15 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (Piya Tan) Date: Fri Jun 24 02:31:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Disciple Count References: <8614185.1119476559910.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><0 00401c5778f$ecd9c2d0$0100000a@whizzo> <1119501024.5465.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000801c577ba$e9dc79d0$0100000a@whizzo> Message-ID: <42BBC3A6.ADEABF94@singnet.com.sg> Lance, your explanation fits closely with those of K¨­gen MIZUNO, The Beginnings of Buddhism (1980:87) and Hajime NAKAMURA Gotama Buddha (2000:306). The references I have found (I think there are others) for A.d.dha,te.lasehi bhikkhu,satehi: V 1:220, 243; D 1:47, 2:6, S 1:192, Sn p102 f; a.d.dha,te.lasaani bhikkhu,sataani: SnA p104; MA 2:209. Besides, the Kandhaka, we also find mention of 1250 monks in Diigha, Sa.myutta and Sutta Nipaata (beside MA). It is also interesting to note that the Majjhima Commentary (MA 3:209), in its closing remarks, mentions the conclusion of the Diighanakha Sutta as the occasion for Maagha Puuja or Sangha Day (?). After this discourse to Diigha,nakha and his attainment of stream-winning, the Buddha descends from Mt Vulture's Peak and goes to the Bamboo Grove (near Raajagaha) where there is the gathering of the disciples known as "the fourfold assembly" (catur-a.nga,samannaagato), so called because: (1) It is the full moon observance day of the month of Maagha (Jan-Feb), (usually coinciding with Chinese New Year day!); (2) 1250 monks  have assembled spontaneously (dhammataaya), unprompted (anaamantitaani); (3) They are all arhats of the sixfold superknowledges (cha-.l-abhi~n~naa); and (4) They are all personally admitted by the Buddha with the formula "Come, O monk!" (ehi,bhikkhu). (MA 3:209) Your explanation of the lay followers is new to me, and interesting. Sukhi Piya   "L.S. Cousins" wrote: > My guess would be that all references to 1,250 monks derive > ultimately from the account of the spread of the teaching in the > Mahaavagga (Skandhaka). According to this account, the growth is in > stages: > > 1. in the Benares region > Eventually there are 60 arahat disciples (made up of the original > five plus Yasa plus four of his friends plus 50 associates of Yasa). > These are sent in all directions, but bring back disciples > (unnumbered) to the Buddha for ordination. Just as he is leaving this > area, the 30 Bhaddavaggiyas join but do not seem to become arahats. > > 2. in the Gayaa region > The Buddha journeyed back to the area of his Awakening. There he wins > over the three Kassapa brothers together with their followings of > 500, 300 and 200 respectively. This gives a total of 1,000, either as > a round number or assuming that the three brothers are included in > the count. All became arahats after the Fire Sermon. Unlike in the > case > > 3. in Raajagaha (Rajgir) > The Buddha now journeyed on the the capital city of Magadha where the > first 'monastery' is established. It is at this point that Saariputta > and Moggallaana and the 250 other disciples of Sanjaya join the > Buddha's following. Presumably they all became arahats fairly soon > afterwards, but there is no mention of them being sent away by the > Buddha. > > This then is the source for the figure of 1,250 monks: 500 + 300 + > 200 + 250. Probably we should not take this quite literally. In oral > traditions of this kind 500 is simply a literary convention meaning > 'a large number'. So this is the number of disciples of the senior > Kassapa brother. His two brothers are given the same number shared > between them. Sanjaya as a lesser figure is given half the number of > the senior Kassapa. > >  From this point of view, 1,250 is then a way of saying that four > large followings have joined the Buddha and are present. >   I do not know anything that would suggest any further symbolic > significance here. > > There is also nothing here to indicate any figure for the ultimate > number of disciples taught by the Buddha.  The duration of the > Buddha's stay in these three places is not spelt out very explicitly > in the Mahaavagga, but presumably the above events cannot have taken > more than a few years. Nothing indicates how many monks were taught > by him during the rest of his life. > > If we ask the question about lay people, then we can only follow the > indication given in the same account. King Bimbisaara approaches the > Buddha with 12 myriads (nahuta) of brahmins and householders. The > figure is obviously intended to correspond to the twelve and a half > hundreds usually translated as 1,250 - presumably half a myriad would > have sounded odd. What is not said is that the twelve myriads become > disciples. Rather a single myriad declare themselves disciples. I > would agree that this is a hint that in the earlier Buddhist period > Buddhist followers considered themselves to constitute a twelfth of > the population in Eastern India. I don't think we have any better > figure than that. > > Lance Cousins > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jun 24 08:28:12 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Jun 24 08:32:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> I have to admit feeling a little uneasy about this book. It emphasizes the more lurid side of Tibetan Buddhism (or more generally, of Tantrism) - and it is written by a former Buddhist who has recently converted to Catholicism. There is a long and sad history of Christian Buddhologists seizing upon Tantra (especially its more lurid manifestations) as evidence of the "decadence" of Eastern religions in general. I wouldn't dream of accusing Paul Williams of intentionally participating in that kind of theological propaganda, but I wonder if he happens to mention anywhere in this book that he is now an ex-Buddhist - or if he acknowledges the past misrepresentations of Tantrism by Christian Buddhologists and explicitly distances himself from them? I say this having read Williams excellent book "Buddhist Thought", which was published in the midst of his recent conversion away from Buddhism. The tone of that book is extremely problematic in places and he makes very strange choices of words - like insisting on calling the Buddha and by extension all Indian ascetics "dropouts". He also goes out of his way to use Hume-esque language to describe the Buddhist critique of the Self. I was even more struck by the tone of "Buddhist Thought" when I started reading Williams' earlier book on Mahayana Buddhism - in which he makes it very clear from the beginning that he is writing not just as a scholar but also as a practicing Buddhist. No such clarity about where the author is coming from is to be found anywhere in "Buddhist Thought". When reading a book about the drunken sexual daliances of a historically important figure in Buddhism, I think it is only fair to ask what the point is supposed to be. This is even more true when one reads that Williams is publicly saying that the current military occupation of Tibet by China is, at least in part, a result of the behavior of the sixth Dalai Lama. - Curt jkirk wrote: > Paul Williams. _Songs of Love, Poems of Sadness : The Erotic Verse of > the Sixth Dalai Lama._ I. B. Tauris, this month. > Good summer reading? > Joanna > ----------- > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4073630.stm > > The publication of a new translation of the erotic poetry of the sixth > Dalai Lama - who rejected monastic orders and indulged his passion for > women and wine - has given new insight into this controversial figure > of religious history. > ...Tsangyang's lifestyle meant there were many who believed they could > not govern effectively in his name, creating a power vacuum in Tibet. > > This led to two successive invasions from different parts of Mongolia > - after which the Chinese army entered the area to sort out the > situation. > > "It is really from this time that China had been able to enforce their > claim - which they still have - that Tibet is an integral part of > China," Mr Williams added.... From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 24 09:36:07 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 24 09:42:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> >I have to admit feeling a little uneasy about this book. It > emphasizes the more lurid side of Tibetan Buddhism (or > more generally, of Tantrism) - and it is written by a former > Buddhist who has recently converted to Catholicism. There > is a long and sad history of Christian Buddhologists seizing > upon Tantra (especially its more lurid manifestations) as > evidence of the "decadence" of Eastern religions in general. > I wouldn't dream of accusing Paul Williams of intentionally > participating in that kind of theological propaganda, but I > wonder if he happens to mention anywhere in this book > that he is now an ex-Buddhist - or if he acknowledges the > past misrepresentations of Tantrism by Christian Buddhologists > and explicitly distances himself from them? > > I say this having read Williams excellent book "Buddhist > Thought", which was published in the midst of his recent > conversion away from Buddhism. The tone of that book > is extremely problematic in places and he makes very strange > choices of words - like insisting on calling the Buddha and > by extension all Indian ascetics "dropouts". He also goes > out of his way to use Hume-esque language to describe > the Buddhist critique of the Self. I was even more struck by > the tone of "Buddhist Thought" when I started reading Williams' > earlier book on Mahayana Buddhism - in which he makes it > very clear from the beginning that he is writing not just as a > scholar but also as a practicing Buddhist. No such clarity about > where the author is coming from is to be found anywhere > in "Buddhist Thought". > > When reading a book about the drunken sexual daliances of > a historically important figure in Buddhism, I think it is > only fair to ask what the point is supposed to be. > This is even more true when one reads that Williams is > publicly saying that the current military occupation of Tibet > by China is, at least in part, a result of the behavior of the > sixth Dalai Lama. > - Curt ========================= I haven't read anything by Williams but I have read a bit on the 6th DL and his social predilections and fame as a poet. I'm skeptical of your suspicion that this book luridicizes--if I may coin a word--Tantrism, since the 6th DL gave up all preliminary vows and refused to take final vows. He did not practice as a monk. My guess is he knew very little about Tantra. The fact that his songs are still sung today by ordinary Tibetans suggests that his memory is popular. If they like him, what's to worry? Did his poetry actually employ Tantrism or figures of Buddhist redemption to make its points? If so, there were a few Zen monk poets of Japan who wrote philosophically or otherwise about wine and women (don't know about the song part), but they have not thrown Zen into any disrepute. Thus, he seems to have been simply a party man, albeit situated in a high place and lineage, who nevertheless favored wine, women and song instead of attending to his traditional duties. I can't comment on Williams's historical inferences about Chinese conquest of Tibet, or whether he concealed his conversion away from Buddhism, until I read the book. Best wishes, Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jun 24 09:36:46 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Jun 24 09:42:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:28 -0400, curt wrote: > I wouldn't dream of accusing Paul Williams of intentionally > participating in that kind of theological propaganda, but I > wonder if he happens to mention anywhere in this book > that he is now an ex-Buddhist I cannot imagine any piece of information that would be less important than the author's former or current affiliations. Anyone interested in knowing why Paul Williams returned to his childhood religion can find it explained in eloquent detail in various writings he has produced. He has hidden nothing from us, so I see no reason to mention in everything he writes was his personal convictions are. No matter what his current religion, he has produced some of the best studies ever done of Mahayana Buddhist thought and Tibetan Buddhism. His intelligence verges on sheer genius, and his command of the languages of India and Tibet is of the highest level. The only solid criticism I have seen of his work on Mahayana is that his command of East Asian forms of Buddhism is derivative of the works of scholars who work with the primary sources. But it is true of everyone who writes about more than one or two schools of Buddhism that they have to rely on the works of others to fill out the whole picture. > I say this having read Williams excellent book "Buddhist > Thought", which was published in the midst of his recent > conversion away from Buddhism. The tone of that book > is extremely problematic in places and he makes very strange > choices of words - like insisting on calling the Buddha and > by extension all Indian ascetics "dropouts". What other word would you use for people who abandon their biological families and leave behind all earthly ties? People who renounce the world do drop out of mainstream society. What is wrong, then, with designating them with a term that accurately describes what they advocated doing and did? > He also goes out of his way to use Hume-esque language to describe > the Buddhist critique of the Self. Anyone who wishes to make Buddhism accessible to an educated Western audience is well advised to show similarities between Buddhist ideas and ideas put forth by various Western thinkers. People have been explaining Gotama Buddha in the language of David Hume for decades. More recently Derek Parfit has become a more fashionable object of comparison. To refer to these folks is not "going out of one's way" to make perverse comparison, but rather are trying to make what might seem foreign much more accessible to Western readers. > When reading a book about the drunken sexual daliances of > a historically important figure in Buddhism, I think it is > only fair to ask what the point is supposed to be. That human beings are, after all, human beings? That nobody has a monopoly on virtue? That many Western Buddhists are hopelessly naive about Buddhism and imagine that Asian Buddhists somehow managed to avoid debauchery, scandals, pettiness, political intrigues, hypocrisy and akrasia? > This is even more true when one reads that Williams is > publicly saying that the current military occupation of Tibet > by China is, at least in part, a result of the behavior of the > sixth Dalai Lama. All one has to do is read a little bit of what the Chinese routinely say about Tibetan history to know that he is right. The Chinese do not have to look very far to find some splendid examples of Tibetan leaders exercising brutality against the Tibetan people. You can bet that if the traditional Tibetan government were still in place (and if Tibet had oil), a lot of Americans, including several in the White House, would be screaming for regime change and establishing democracy in this benighted part of the world. Any balanced recounting of Tibetan history will show that the Tibetans were not much different from the other people in Central Asia. Actually, it's quite a fascinating history. I recommend starting with the work of Gavin Hambly, who edited a wonderful collection of pieces on the history of Tibet, Mongolia, Uzbekistan and all manner of peoples who at one time were part of the Soviet Union and now have formed some of the most bloody and repressive regimes on the face of the earth (some of whom the USA have made into trusted allies in the farce they call The War on Terror). On the grounds that Paul Williams is an excellent scholar, a very fine human being, a deep thinker, and a man who is independent enough in his thinking not to spew anyone's party line (whether the Dalai Lama's or the Pope's), I recommend his work without any reservations at all. (Of course, you should bear in mind that I am allegedly a former Communist, a one-time Quaker, a quasi-Unitarian, a dharmachari in the notorious Western Buddhist Order, a mere philosopher, and the husband of a yogini who admires both Swami Vivekananda and a Jesuit Zen teacher, and therefore I have no credibility whatsoever in Buddhist circles.) -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 24 12:30:24 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 24 12:32:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: Book on Just War and Dhamma in SL Message-ID: <001701c578ea$c9cddf40$2930cece@charlie> Since we are in the midst of war, I'd be interested to know if anyone has read this fairly recent book: Tessa Bartholomeusz, _In Defense of Dhamma: Just-war Ideology in Buddhist Sri Lanka_ (London: RoutledgeCurzon, 2002)------and what they think of the discussion therein. Best, Joanna From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jun 24 14:43:26 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Jun 24 14:52:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> Richard P. Hayes wrote: >I cannot imagine any piece of information that would be less important >than the author's former or current affiliations. > Hmmm - I find that hard to fathom. I always suspect that people without opinions have nothing interesting to say - but then I always suspect that people who do have opinions are trying to convince me to agree with them. Either way - I want to know where they are coming from. This goes double for Buddhist Buddhologists - whom I always suspect of trying to peddle their own favorite pet theories - but it also applies to Christian Buddhologists whom I always suspect of trying to peddle Christianity. So when a Christian Buddhologist decides to produce yet another book about the sixth Dalai Lama's drunken womanizing I go "aha!". >Anyone interested in >knowing why Paul Williams returned to his childhood religion can find it >explained in eloquent detail in various writings he has produced. > And anyone who writes a whole book about Buddhism after practicing it for 30 years and then abandoning it should be able to find some way of communicating to the reader (other than assuming that the reader will go and read all of that authors other books) the author's perspective on the subject matter of the book. Williams had no trouble doing that when he was a Buddhist Buddhologist - why can't he do it as a Christian Buddhologist? >What other word would you use for people who abandon their biological >families and leave behind all earthly ties? People who renounce the >world do drop out of mainstream society. What is wrong, then, with >designating them with a term that accurately describes what they >advocated doing and did? > > Oh, I don't know - maybe "renunciate", or "wandering ascetic" or "yogin" or "bhikkhu". Which, by the way, are all considered to be traditional and respectful ways of referring to someone who has renounced conventional human society in order to pursue spiritual practice full-time. Of course one can choose to use a term like "dropout" if one wishes - but it is a choice that reveals something about the mindset of the author. This is hardly a major point. Williams can call the Buddha a "dropout" if he chooses to - but I still say it is an interesting and revealing choice of words. - Curt From richard.nance at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 16:02:30 2005 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Fri Jun 24 16:45:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: Curt wrote: > So when a Christian Buddhologist decides to produce yet > another book about the sixth Dalai Lama's drunken womanizing I go "aha!". For comparative purposes, you might want to have a look at the following: Sorensen, Per. 1990. _Divinity secularized : an inquiry into the nature and form of the songs ascribed to the sixth Dalai Lama_. Vienna: Arbeitskreis f?r Tibetische und Buddhistische Studien (Wiener Studien zur Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde Heft 25). I haven't yet seen Williams' book, but I found Sorensen's interesting and useful when I read it a few years back. The book isn't readily available in bookstores (or, for that matter, in many university libraries), but if your library has an ILL service, they ought to be able to find a copy for you. Best, R. Nance From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jun 24 17:05:21 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Jun 24 17:12:10 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1119654321.7409.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 16:43 -0400, curt wrote: > Hmmm - I find that hard to fathom. I always suspect that people > without opinions have nothing interesting to say - but then I always > suspect that people who do have opinions are trying to convince me to > agree with them. When people are in the business of persuasion, what you say is true. But scholarship is not persuasion. It is reporting. Most scholars are quitre good at distinguishing between their own opinions and those of the people whose work they are translating or discussing. > Either way - I want to know where they are coming from. If where they are coming from is relevant, which it is when they are trying to persuade you, they will tell you where they stand. If someone is doing scholarship, however, his or her own opinions are entirely beside the point. They simply have no influence at all on the work they are doing. > This goes double for Buddhist Buddhologists - whom I always suspect of > trying to peddle their own favorite pet theories - but > it also applies to Christian Buddhologists whom I always suspect of > trying to peddle Christianity. A good Buddhist practice for you might be to strive to be less suspicious. > So when a Christian Buddhologist decides to produce yet > another book about the sixth Dalai Lama's drunken womanizing I go "aha!". What if a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, such as Donald Lopez, were to publish such a book? > And anyone who writes a whole book about Buddhism after practicing it > for 30 years and then abandoning it should be able to find some way of communicating > to the reader (other than assuming that the reader will go and read all of that > authors other books) the author's perspective on the subject matter of the book. One of the reasons people write more than one book is because they cannot possibly say everything they have to say in a single book. Williams has written at length about his religious views. Go read what he has to say, if this intrigues you. In his work on the sixth Dalai Lama, he evidently felt his own convictions had no relevance. If he had felt it was important to discuss his own religious views in a scholarly work on an important figure in Buddhist history, he surely would have done so. > Williams had no trouble doing that when he was a Buddhist Buddhologist > - why can't he do it as a Christian Buddhologist? Williams has excellent judgement, and he no doubt judged that mentioning Christianity was not very important in discussing the writings of a man who had probably never even heard of Christianity, let alone of the type of Christianity that Williams practices. > Of course one can choose to use a term like "dropout" if one wishes - > but it is a choice that reveals something about the mindset of the > author. Right. What this choice of words reveals about Williams is that he is trying to avoid pedantic language and is trying to speak in terms people readily understand. You see, using an exotic word like "bhikkhu" disguises the fact that the word means "beggar." When one is speaking about a movement of people who took pride in abandoning the ways of polite society and who deliberately chose to call themselves by words that in their society had very negative connotations, a good way to capture the dynamic equivalence of the terms they called themselves is to use words that conjure up similar images in the minds of modern readers. Steve Collins used to refer to Buddhist bhikkhus as tramps and bums, arguing that these English terms come much closer than terms like "monk" at capturing what the word "bhikkhu" meant to speakers of Indic languages at the time of the Buddha. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jun 24 18:31:44 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Jun 24 18:32:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <1119654321.7409.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> <1119654321.7409.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42BCA5F0.4000203@cola.iges.org> Richard P. Hayes wrote: >A good Buddhist practice for you might be to strive to be less >suspicious. > > I'm already far too busy memorizing protective mantras to take on any new practices. But thanks for the suggestion anyway. - Curt From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jun 24 18:34:13 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Jun 24 18:42:15 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> I would definitely not go so far as to say that Williams in any way "concealed" his conversion to Christianity. In fact, he has written a whole book about it. Let me end by saying that "Buddhist Thought" is a great book - I will reread it many times. I have only recently started "Mahayana Buddhism" and it looks to be even better. "Buddhist Thought" is especially good on the question of "Buddhist Ontology" - what Buddhists believe "really" exists. Its almost impossible to write about ontology - its like trying to sculpt water. But somehow Williams manages to do it in a way that is, if you'll pardon the expression, "enlightening". And I definitely plan to read the book he wrote specifically about his conversion experience. I'll bet its fascinating - probably should be required reading for all western buddhists. - Curt jkirk wrote: > I can't comment on Williams's historical inferences about Chinese > conquest of Tibet, or whether he concealed his conversion away from > Buddhism, until I read the book. > Best wishes, Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jun 24 21:45:45 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Jun 24 21:52:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 20:34 -0400, curt wrote: > Let me end by saying that "Buddhist Thought" is a great > book - I will reread it many times. I have only recently started > "Mahayana Buddhism" and it looks to be even better. Williams was a student of my thesis supervisor, who told me he found Williams the most intensely intelligent student he had had. While I have not read all his work, what I have read has been well worth the effort. His earlier work was sometimes convoluted, but as he has aged he has shed the need to prance around on verbal high wires. He now writes with a wonderful clarity. > And I definitely plan to read the book he wrote specifically about his > conversion experience. I'll bet its fascinating - probably should be > required reading for all western buddhists. Probably so. I have a feeling that a good many Western Buddhists will do much the same as he has done as they come to recognize that they are not Asians and that in the eyes of Asians they will always be second-class Buddhists. As people age, they often yearn to make deeper sense of what they made superficial sense of as children. And if they were not exposed to Buddhism as children, they feel less of a need to make deep sense of it. This is something I have seen again and again among my many friends who turned to Asian religions and philosophies. Hell, it has even happened to me to some extent. I find myself wanting to make deeper sense of the secular materialism that was my childhood religion. Toward that end I have been enjoying the writings of Steven Pinker of late. One of these days I may start some discussions about his work and the implications of his writings for Western Buddhists. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 24 22:08:31 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 24 22:12:15 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain><42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> <1119654321.7409.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001b01c5793b$8c8c6650$2930cece@charlie> Steve Collins used to refer to Buddhist bhikkhus as tramps and > bums, arguing that these English terms come much closer than terms like > "monk" at capturing what the word "bhikkhu" meant to speakers of Indic > languages at the time of the Buddha. > > -- > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes ======================= Who was or is Steve Collins and what did he publish in this field? His style sounds appealing...... Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jun 24 22:27:10 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Jun 24 22:32:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> ........ Toward that end I have been enjoying the writings of Steven > Pinker of late. One of these days I may start some discussions about his > work and the implications of his writings for Western Buddhists. > > -- > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes ============================== Not knowing who Pinker is, I checked with amazon and found this blurb for his recent book, _The Blank Slate : The Denial of Human Nature and Modern Intellectual Life_, that might help to clarify what he's up to: >From Publishers Weekly In his last outing, How the Mind Works, the author of the well-received The Language Instinct made a case for evolutionary psychology or the view that human beings have a hard-wired nature that evolved over time. This book returns to that still-controversial territory in order to shore it up in the public sphere. Drawing on decades of research in the "sciences of human nature," Pinker, a chaired professor of psychology at MIT, attacks the notion that an infant's mind is a blank slate, arguing instead that human beings have an inherited universal structure shaped by the demands made upon the species for survival, albeit with plenty of room for cultural and individual variation. For those who have been following the sciences in question including cognitive science, neuroscience, behavioral genetics and evolutionary psychology much of the evidence will be familiar, yet Pinker's clear and witty presentation, complete with comic strips and allusions to writers from Woody Allen to Emily Dickinson, keeps the material fresh. What might amaze is the persistent, often vitriolic resistance to these findings Pinker presents and systematically takes apart, decrying the hold of the "blank slate" and other orthodoxies on intellectual life. He goes on to tour what science currently claims to know about human nature, including its cognitive, intuitive and emotional faculties, and shows what light this research can shed on such thorny topics as gender inequality, child-rearing and modern art. Pinker's synthesizing of many fields is impressive but uneven, especially when he ventures into moral philosophy and religion; examples like "Even Hitler thought he was carrying out the will of God" violate Pinker's own principle that one should not exploit Nazism "for rhetorical clout." For the most part, however, the book is persuasive and illuminating. Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc. ----------- Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jun 25 09:10:30 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Jun 25 09:12:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <001b01c5793b$8c8c6650$2930cece@charlie> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org> <1119654321.7409.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <001b01c5793b$8c8c6650$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <1119712230.5482.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 22:08 -0600, jkirk wrote: > Who was or is Steve Collins and what did he publish in this field? > His style sounds appealing...... To start at the beginning, he was born in 1951. After a childhood and adolescence, he trained in Pali studies at Oxford. He has been teaching at University of Chicago for some time. He wrote a fine book on no-self theory called Selfless Persons and another called He has also written a number of interesting articles, including one called "The very idea of the Pali canon," which challenges some of the myths about the earliness of the Pali canon. It has been a long time since I read it, but as I recall his argument, it is that the Pali canon was formed largely in reaction to Mahayana Buddhism as an act of sectarian self-definition. Somebody who has read it more recently can probably offer a more accurate summary; my summaries of almost everything I have ever read are notoriously unreliable. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jun 25 09:21:12 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Jun 25 09:22:24 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 22:27 -0600, Joanna wrote: > Not knowing who Pinker is, I checked with amazon and found this blurb for > his recent book, _The Blank Slate : The Denial of Human Nature and Modern > Intellectual Life_, that might help to clarify what he's up to: Pinker was born in Montreal in 1954 and was trained in psychology at McGill University. He is now at MIT, where he has done some excellent work in cognitive psychology. He is particularly interested in the computational view of the mind. His book How the mind works won awards. He is one of the most readable and entertaining science writers on the scene. As an added bonus, he likes to take on cherished dogmas of the age and criticizes them intelligently. If you do a Google search on him you'll find several hundred references to people howling about his claim that a human foetus is not yet complex enough to support enough consciousness to speak of. This produced a spate of editorials in the NY Times decrying the fact that a person who advocates infanticide can get tenure at a major university, and criticizing the NY Times for allowing a child murderer to express his views in public. Let me know when the times we are living in are scary enough for you. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 25 12:19:24 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Jun 25 12:22:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of petry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><1119627406.5429.31.camel@localhost.localdomain><42BC706E.8080908@cola.iges.org><1119654321.7409.19.camel@localhost.localdomain><001b01c5793b$8c8c6650$2930cece@charlie> <1119712230.5482.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002601c579b2$6aab54c0$2930cece@charlie> Thanks-----oddly when I tried searching amazon under his name I got more than a thousand hits of all kinds of authors by that name, but his books became accessible after I got a title, like Selfless Persons. I'm going to read this one. Thanks. Joanna ======================================================== > To start at the beginning, he was born in 1951. After a childhood and > adolescence, he trained in Pali studies at Oxford. He has been teaching > at University of Chicago for some time. He wrote a fine book on no-self > theory called Selfless Persons and another called and other Buddhist felicities. He has also written a number of > interesting articles, including one called "The very idea of the Pali > canon," which challenges some of the myths about the earliness of the > Pali canon. It has been a long time since I read it, but as I recall his > argument, it is that the Pali canon was formed largely in reaction to > Mahayana Buddhism as an act of sectarian self-definition. Somebody who > has read it more recently can probably offer a more accurate summary; my > summaries of almost everything I have ever read are notoriously > unreliable. > > -- > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005 > > From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 25 12:23:13 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Jun 25 12:32:26 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org><1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain><006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002a01c579b2$f374b9e0$2930cece@charlie> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard P. Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL > On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 22:27 -0600, Joanna wrote: > >> Not knowing who Pinker is, I checked with amazon and found this blurb for >> his recent book, _The Blank Slate : The Denial of Human Nature and Modern ............................... > If you do a Google search on him you'll find several hundred references > to people howling about his claim that a human foetus is not yet complex > enough to support enough consciousness to speak of. This produced a > spate of editorials in the NY Times decrying the fact that a person who > advocates infanticide can get tenure at a major university, and > criticizing the NY Times for allowing a child murderer to express his > views in public. > > Let me know when the times we are living in are scary enough for you. > > -- > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes ========================================= Very scary and it just gets worse with every passing day. This info on the NYT is mind boggling. Editorials, or letters to the editor? In any case, insanity rules. I thnk I'll go over to the park and listen to some Blue Grass music. Joanna From halc at xprt.net Sat Jun 25 20:51:10 2005 From: halc at xprt.net (Hal Cooper) Date: Sat Jun 25 20:52:34 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001c01c579f9$e8f3b330$8f7e66d1@dharma> > Probably so. I have a feeling that a good many Western Buddhists will do > much the same as he has done as they come to recognize that they are not > Asians and that in the eyes of Asians they will always be second-class > Buddhists. Perhaps some Asians have that view, but I have met some who don't look down their nose at the Western practitioners. What the Westerners fail to realize is that Buddhist practice is difficult for the Asians too. People of all nationalities need to work hard at giving, precepts, patience, vigor, concentration, and perfect wisdom. If we all do the work, we can combine together like milk and water. This issue is very real though. I have run into many people who just don't feel comfortable in the Asian Buddhist surroundings. The Asian Buddhists need to mind their own practice and the Western Buddhists need to stop getting into peoples' heads. So many times a Westerner will go to an Asian temple and some well meaning Asian will keep pointing to the Pin Yin or Japanese or whatever like the Westerner needs to do exactly what everyone else does and they just keep helping the poor second-class Westerner relentlessly. It's just too much confusion and both minds get all bound up. What I sometimes do is gently close the sutra whenever a well meaning Asian comes to help me. Just make an offering later or speak some kind words to show them you respect the process. They are tolerant people and will come to understand and respect your spiritual needs. There must be a demon at the gates ready to discourage each and every Westerner because it is really bad now. It's all the jibber jabber and false thinking that gets in the way. Who cares what other people think? What is the point of being a mind reader? I feel lonely as the only regular Westerner at -my- temple, but I would never go back to burning question marks on the Republicans' lawns. Have you ever noticed that Westerners don't say "my temple" very often. They feel like a guest and use expressions like "they" when talking about the Asian temple. Some Westerners even get the false impression they are being run off. Stand your ground Westerners. It's -your- temple. One other has many selfs. One being has many lifetimes. Lifetimes and selfs are marks. Do not attach to marks. So, who is Western? Who is Asian? All sentient beings are FIRST-CLASS. --------------------------------------------- Hal's Portal http://www.xprt.net/~halc From brburl at mailbag.com Sat Jun 25 21:05:44 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Sat Jun 25 21:12:37 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050625220517.0316e7e8@mailbag.com> At 10:21 AM 6/25/2005, you wrote: >Let me know when the times we are living in are scary enough for you. Slouching towards Bethlehem W.B Yeats Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert. A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 25 21:42:36 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Jun 25 21:42:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] tsunami daanaa--is it reaching the needy? Message-ID: <000301c57a01$184cced0$2930cece@charlie> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4621937.stm >From the blog under this article, this item: In the end, I didn't send any money to the fund as I felt that a) the British government was already sending money on my behalf from the taxes I pay and b) the fund was getting so large that it was inevitable that some of it would be misappropriated. Following the Sri Lankan imposition of import taxes on Oxfam vehicles, I feel vindicated. It's much better to support the smaller charities where you have full confidence in how the money will be spent. Dave, Leicester, UK ============ So, nothing has changed even after the biggest natural disaster of recent times. The Thai coastal tourist scene is already up and running while locals still don't have homes and, often, work. In Sri Lanka, the aid distribution is still being fought over. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jun 25 21:54:15 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Jun 25 22:02:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org><1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain><006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie><1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050625220517.0316e7e8@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <000d01c57a02$b8d383c0$2930cece@charlie> Amen, brother. Especially his lines, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." Could it be put any better than this about our times? Joanna ============================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Burrill" > > Slouching towards Bethlehem > > W.B Yeats > > Turning and turning in the widening gyre > The falcon cannot hear the falconer; > Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; > Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, > The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere > The ceremony of innocence is drowned; > The best lack all conviction, while the worst > Are full of passionate intensity. > Surely some revelation is at hand; > Surely the Second Coming is at hand. > The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out > When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi > Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert. > > A shape with lion body and the head of a man, > A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, > Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it > Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. > The darkness drops again; but now I know > That twenty centuries of stony sleep > were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, > And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, > Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005 > > From tccahill at loyno.edu Sun Jun 26 08:47:43 2005 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Sun Jun 26 09:00:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Pinker is now at Harvard. I happened to notice his statement of support for their president in the recent squabble and subsequent (non-binding) faculty vote of no-confidence. His book *The Language Instinct* not only won awards, but was a NY Times bestseller. It also happened to be used as the main text for an intro to Linguistics course at the U of Pennsylvania in 1990's. Language lovers at M.I.T. must have been enthralled when Pinker began taking on Chomsky! best, Tim Cahill From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jun 26 19:32:15 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sun Jun 26 19:32:49 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119835935.5529.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 09:47 -0500, Timothy C. Cahill wrote: > Pinker is now at Harvard. I was wondering about that. There are a lot of stale pages on the Internet. I did see one reference to his being at Harvard but thought it might be a visiting professorship. (I couldn't help wondering whether Harvard was paying for his commuting costs.) > I happened to notice his statement of support > for their president in the recent squabble and subsequent > (non-binding) faculty vote of no-confidence. That would be consistent with his stance in The Blank Slate,<\cite> in which he says that saying that ANYTHING may be genetically inherited rather than culturally conditioned will bring on the academic Thought Police. He cites ample evidence that numerous people across the country have almost been drummed out of the corps for even suggesting as one of several hypotheses that certain abilities (or lacks thereof) might have genetics as a factor. It has become, he claims, a taboo hypothesis. > Language lovers at M.I.T. must have been enthralled when Pinker began > taking on Chomsky! One of my colleagues, trained in linguistics at MIT, frequently says that linguistics has stopped being a science and has become a dogmatic personality cult built around Chomsky. This colleague has used Pinker's book in his introductory linguistics course, much to the horror of his colleagues, all of whom are True Believers in whatever Chomsky has said in his most recent publication. -- Richard Hayes *** "If you want the truth, rather than merely something to say, you will have a good deal less to say." -- Thomas Nagel From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jun 26 19:54:14 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sun Jun 26 20:02:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <001c01c579f9$e8f3b330$8f7e66d1@dharma> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <001c01c579f9$e8f3b330$8f7e66d1@dharma> Message-ID: <1119837255.5529.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 19:51 -0700, Hal Cooper wrote: > This issue is very real though. I have run into many people who just don't > feel comfortable in the Asian Buddhist surroundings. Have you run across Westerners who feel quite comfortable in Asian Buddhist settings but feel queasy around Westerners who try to act like Asians by dressing in Asian clothes, eating with East Asian utensils, going by Sanskrit or Japanese names they can't pronounce correctly und so weiter? If not, let me introduce myself. I think we could become friends. > Have you ever noticed that Westerners don't say "my temple" very often. I can see you don't spend much time around Mormons. By the way, Hal, according to Mort Saul, the people into whose lawns you are supposed to burn questions marks are Unitarians. I don't know who can afford the gasoline to burn anything into the manicured lawns of Republicans these days. Did any of you folks see the PBS program on the high school gal from Lubbock, TX who was working to promote sex education, thereby causing a great deal of hand-wringing from her Republican parents and her local minister. One of the great lines in the program was the minister's: "Liberalism and Christianity mix like oil and water. Christianity is the most intolerant religion in the world. When I hear you talk, I'm afraid I hear a lot of tolerance." It was obvious from his facial expression (which featured bleached teeth and peroxided hair) that the minister was pretty alarmed at this young girl's dangerous tendencies toward toleration. He had another great line to the effect that teaching teenagers how to use condoms is the moral equivalent of handing them a gun and letting them go through the school killing people. Jesus, Sam, if any of these folks leak out of Texas into America, we could have a mess to clean up. (Bumper sticker recently spotted on a Texan van that somehow got past the border patrol into New Mexico: "The best method of safe sex is in your hands.") I'd say more, but I have to go iron my dhoti, eat my tofu and wash my chopsticks before sitting on the floor to do my Buddhist meditation. -- Dharmachari Dayamati (pronounce THAT if you can!) Albuquerque, New Mexico From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 26 21:27:07 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun Jun 26 21:32:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: +AFs-Buddha-l+AF0- Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: +ADw-007401c577af+ACQ-d0f841c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-42BC187C.5070808+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4APA-001101c578d2+ACQ-709a68c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-42BCA685.7060100+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4APA-1119671145.8460.10.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4APA-001c01c579f9+ACQ-e8f3b330+ACQ-8f7e66d1+AEA-dharma+AD4- +ADw-1119837255.5529.34.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4- Message-ID: <002f01c57ac8$2be430b0$aa664e51@zen> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > Dharmachari Dayamati (pronounce THAT if you can!) > Albuquerque, New Mexico Actually, I have more difficulty with your address - I always mentally pronounce it as Alberquirky, which might be appropriate with you living there. For some reason, Aristophonean frogs also come to mind. Ah well, must be the onset of senility. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From bseidner at earthlink.net Sun Jun 26 20:29:32 2005 From: bseidner at earthlink.net (Bruce G. Seidner Ph.D.) Date: Sun Jun 26 22:22:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: <1119835935.5529.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org> <001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie> <42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org> <1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie> <1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119835935.5529.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050626222737.01e94b40@earthlink.net> Lots of folks have taken on Chomsky-like idealism. One of my favorites was Herbert Terrace who debunked the claims of "nurturing" an ape to use American Sign Language in the case of Nim Chimpsky. I too wish I were not saddled with the Karma of a body that becomes sick, old, and dies all too soon. I can imagine lots of alternatives. Bruce At 09:32 PM 6/26/2005, you wrote: >On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 09:47 -0500, Timothy C. Cahill wrote: > > > Pinker is now at Harvard. > >I was wondering about that. There are a lot of stale pages on the >Internet. I did see one reference to his being at Harvard but thought it >might be a visiting professorship. (I couldn't help wondering whether >Harvard was paying for his commuting costs.) > > > I happened to notice his statement of support > > for their president in the recent squabble and subsequent > > (non-binding) faculty vote of no-confidence. > >That would be consistent with his stance in The Blank >Slate,<\cite> in which he says that saying that ANYTHING may be >genetically inherited rather than culturally conditioned will bring on >the academic Thought Police. He cites ample evidence that numerous >people across the country have almost been drummed out of the corps for >even suggesting as one of several hypotheses that certain abilities (or >lacks thereof) might have genetics as a factor. It has become, he >claims, a taboo hypothesis. > > > Language lovers at M.I.T. must have been enthralled when Pinker began > > taking on Chomsky! > >One of my colleagues, trained in linguistics at MIT, frequently says >that linguistics has stopped being a science and has become a dogmatic >personality cult built around Chomsky. This colleague has used Pinker's >book in his introductory linguistics course, much to the horror of his >colleagues, all of whom are True Believers in whatever Chomsky has said >in his most recent publication. > >-- >Richard Hayes >*** >"If you want the truth, rather than merely something to say, >you will have a good deal less to say." -- Thomas Nagel > > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Bruce G. Seidner, Ph.D. 1111 Northshore Drive Clinical & Forensic Psychology Ste S-490 Family Mediation Knoxville, TN 37919 865.584.0171 office 865.584.0174 fax bseidner@earthlink.net ********************************************************************** The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ********************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050626/b2b85efd/attachment.htm From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jun 27 07:36:05 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Jun 27 07:42:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org><1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain><006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie><1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119835935.5529.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001501c57b1d$2bc07b70$2930cece@charlie> >> I happened to notice his statement of support >> for their president in the recent squabble and subsequent >> (non-binding) faculty vote of no-confidence. > > That would be consistent with his stance in The Blank > Slate,<\cite> in which he says that saying that ANYTHING may be > genetically inherited rather than culturally conditioned will bring on > the academic Thought Police. He cites ample evidence that numerous > people across the country have almost been drummed out of the corps for > even suggesting as one of several hypotheses that certain abilities (or > lacks thereof) might have genetics as a factor. It has become, he > claims, a taboo hypothesis. > Richard Hayes > *** > "If you want the truth, rather than merely something to say, > you will have a good deal less to say." -- Thomas Nagel ============= Since some of us are on this topic, I think it would be relevant if people read both a pro-Summers explication of what he "actually said" type argument, and a critical view on what he "actually said," both available at Slate (ironically an appropriately named venue for this debate): Pro...... http://slate.msn.com/id/2113742/ Con... http://slate.msn.com/id/2112799/ Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jun 27 07:47:01 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Jun 27 07:53:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org><1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain><006401c5793e$27fd4490$2930cece@charlie><1119712872.5482.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119835935.5529.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001801c57b1e$b277acf0$2930cece@charlie> > That would be consistent with his stance in The Blank > Slate,<\cite> in which he says that saying that ANYTHING may be > genetically inherited rather than culturally conditioned will bring on > the academic Thought Police. He cites ample evidence that numerous > people across the country have almost been drummed out of the corps for > even suggesting as one of several hypotheses that certain abilities (or > lacks thereof) might have genetics as a factor. It has become, he > claims, a taboo hypothesis. --------------------------- Pinker might like to know also that the sainted Larry Summers, when running the World Bank, is responsible for this gem: In a memo on 12 December 1991 on the impeccable economic logic of locating dirty industries and dumping toxic waste in poor Southern countries, Summers opined: "I think the logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that." He concluded the memo with the caution that his analysis "could be turned around and used more or less effectively against every bank proposal for liberalization." He turned out to be prophetic. The memo was leaked and sparked a huge controversy that helped fuel a movement to ban the trade in toxic waste. [good thing, too. JK] From, http://www.newint.org/issue336/worldbeaters.htm Nothing like unintended consequences, eh? Or, perhaps it was karma. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jun 27 08:02:54 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Jun 27 08:03:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: <007401c577af$d0f841c0$2930cece@charlie><42BC187C.5070808@cola.iges.org><001101c578d2$709a68c0$2930cece@charlie><42BCA685.7060100@cola.iges.org><1119671145.8460.10.camel@localhost.localdomain><001c01c579f9$e8f3b330$8f7e66d1@dharma> <1119837255.5529.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002d01c57b20$eac4c0a0$2930cece@charlie> Richard, this is one of your most hilarious. But I suspect you won't hear a Mormon say "my temple" unless he's in Salt Lake City. Otherwise, it's "my stake." Speaking of which, this morning while taking time to wake up to the sounds of radio (I can't hear birds singing in the morning here, they are all dead due to the explosion of cats--city Animal Control recently busted one woman's house that had 123 cats in it in varying degrees of illness and near death, plus fragrance of ammonia so heavy the workers had to wear gas masks--but I digress)..anyway, I hit a Christian station devoted solely to figuring out how to tell Mormons, gently, they are not really Christians and why. True love hath no bounds. Joanna ===================================================== > On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 19:51 -0700, Hal Cooper wrote: > >> This issue is very real though. I have run into many people who just >> don't >> feel comfortable in the Asian Buddhist surroundings. > > Have you run across Westerners who feel quite comfortable in Asian > Buddhist settings but feel queasy around Westerners who try to act like > Asians by dressing in Asian clothes, eating with East Asian utensils, > going by Sanskrit or Japanese names they can't pronounce correctly und > so weiter? If not, let me introduce myself. I think we could become > friends. > >> Have you ever noticed that Westerners don't say "my temple" very often. > > I can see you don't spend much time around Mormons. > > By the way, Hal, according to Mort Saul, the people into whose lawns you > are supposed to burn questions marks are Unitarians. I don't know who > can afford the gasoline to burn anything into the manicured lawns of > Republicans these days. > > Did any of you folks see the PBS program on the high school gal from > Lubbock, TX who was working to promote sex education, thereby causing a > great deal of hand-wringing from her Republican parents and her local > minister. One of the great lines in the program was the minister's: > "Liberalism and Christianity mix like oil and water. Christianity is the > most intolerant religion in the world. When I hear you talk, I'm afraid > I hear a lot of tolerance." It was obvious from his facial expression > (which featured bleached teeth and peroxided hair) that the minister was > pretty alarmed at this young girl's dangerous tendencies toward > toleration. He had another great line to the effect that teaching > teenagers how to use condoms is the moral equivalent of handing them a > gun and letting them go through the school killing people. Jesus, Sam, > if any of these folks leak out of Texas into America, we could have a > mess to clean up. (Bumper sticker recently spotted on a Texan van that > somehow got past the border patrol into New Mexico: "The best method of > safe sex is in your hands.") > > I'd say more, but I have to go iron my dhoti, eat my tofu and wash my > chopsticks before sitting on the floor to do my Buddhist meditation. > > -- > Dharmachari Dayamati (pronounce THAT if you can!) > Albuquerque, New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005 > From junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu Mon Jun 27 08:54:16 2005 From: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu (Peter D. Junger) Date: Mon Jun 27 10:02:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:29:32 EDT." <6.2.0.14.0.20050626222737.01e94b40@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> "Bruce G. Seidner Ph.D." writes: : Lots of folks have taken on Chomsky-like idealism. One of my favorites was : Herbert Terrace who debunked the claims of "nurturing" an ape to use : American Sign Language in the case of Nim Chimpsky. I am afraid that the Nim Chimpsky project was an effort to prove Chomsky wrong. Chompsly's major linguistic postition, as I understand it, is that all human beings have an inherent language faculty that is not shared with other species and that is the same in all human beings. Nor would Chomsky be happy with having his position referred to as idealism. He claims that he is a dualist and traces his intellectual ancestors to Descartes and the school of Port Royale. Or at least he once claimed that and I am quite sure that he is no more capable of admitting that he was wrong than is the President of the United States. But then he---like most people---is much less likely to be wrong than is the president of the United States. -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu From junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu Mon Jun 27 09:00:18 2005 From: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu (Peter D. Junger) Date: Mon Jun 27 10:03:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:47:01 MDT." <001801c57b1e$b277acf0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <200506271500.j5RF0Iaw009831@samsara.law.cwru.edu> "jkirk" writes: : Pinker might like to know also that the sainted Larry Summers, when running : the World Bank, is responsible for this gem: : In a memo on 12 December 1991 on the impeccable economic logic of locating : dirty industries and dumping toxic waste in poor Southern countries, Summers : opined: "I think the logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the : lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that." He : concluded the memo with the caution that his analysis "could be turned : around and used more or less effectively against every bank proposal for : liberalization." The trouble is that, if one accepts the premises---the anti-Dharma as it were---that underlie the dominant economic theories of the "free market" and "liberaization," the logic is indeed impeccable. And the hell of hungry ghosts is inevitable. -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 27 09:57:49 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 27 10:03:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL In-Reply-To: <002f01c57ac8$2be430b0$aa664e51@zen> References: +ADw-007401c577af+ACQ-d0f841c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-42BC187C.5070808+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4APA-001101c578d2+ACQ-709a68c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-42BCA685.7060100+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4APA-1119671145.8460.10.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4APA-001c01c579f9+ACQ-e8f3b330+ACQ-8f7e66d1+AEA-dharma+AD4- +ADw-1119837255.5529.34.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4- <002f01c57ac8$2be430b0$aa664e51@zen> Message-ID: <1119887869.5697.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> > Actually, I have more difficulty with your address - I always mentally > pronounce it as Alberquirky, which might be appropriate with you living > there. Albuquerque?os quickly discover that questions come in pairs. The most familiar pair is: 1) What city do you live in? 2) How do you spell that? The second question is complicated by the fact that an 'r' somehow got dropped overboard between Spain and New Mexico. The Spanish place after which the New Mexican town is named is spelled Alburquerque. That place, and therefore the New Mexican town almost named after it, has two etymologies. Some say it comes from the Latin name for a species of tree, and other says it is the corruption of an Arabic phrase. Naturally, I prefer the latter nirukti, but I have no reason whatsoever for doing so, except that I like Arabs more than Romans. (We populists always cheer on the underdogs, which may be why we become Buddhists.) -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jun 27 13:41:20 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Jun 27 13:43:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL References: +ADw-007401c577af+ACQ-d0f841c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-42BC187C.5070808+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4APA-001101c578d2+ACQ-709a68c0+ACQ-2930cece+AEA-charlie+AD4APA-42BCA685.7060100+AEA-cola.iges.org+AD4APA-1119671145.8460.10.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4APA-001c01c579f9+ACQ-e8f3b330+ACQ-8f7e66d1+AEA-dharma+AD4-+ADw-1119837255.5529.34.camel+AEA-localhost.localdomain+AD4-<002f01c57ac8$2be430b0$aa664e51@zen> <1119887869.5697.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <006b01c57b50$31a95bf0$2930cece@charlie> It really meant al-burqa-ki It was based on a mansion where someone kept a gigantic harem and they all wore burqas. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard P. Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:57 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: New trans. of poetry of the Sixth DL > >> Actually, I have more difficulty with your address - I always mentally >> pronounce it as Alberquirky, which might be appropriate with you living >> there. > > Albuquerque?os quickly discover that questions come in pairs. The most > familiar pair is: 1) What city do you live in? 2) How do you spell > that? > > The second question is complicated by the fact that an 'r' somehow got > dropped overboard between Spain and New Mexico. The Spanish place after > which the New Mexican town is named is spelled Alburquerque. That place, > and therefore the New Mexican town almost named after it, has two > etymologies. Some say it comes from the Latin name for a species of > tree, and other says it is the corruption of an Arabic phrase. > Naturally, I prefer the latter nirukti, but I have no reason whatsoever > for doing so, except that I like Arabs more than Romans. (We populists > always cheer on the underdogs, which may be why we become Buddhists.) > > -- > Richard Hayes > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.2/29 - Release Date: 6/27/2005 > > From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 27 14:55:49 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 27 15:03:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Alburquerque Message-ID: <1119905749.472.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Joanna says of the etymology of the name Alburquerque in Spain: "It really meant al-burqa-ki It was based on a mansion where someone kept a gigantic harem and they all wore burqas." While that is without any doubt the correct etymology, amateur etymologists persist in deriving the name from the Latin "albus quercus" (white oak). Some say this Latin phrase was transcribed into Arabic, where it became "abu al-qurq" (land of the cork oak). As a Sanskritist, I am committed to the hypothesis that every word in every language in the world is a corruption of some Sanskrit word, so I am inclined to endorse the view of Varanasi pandits who derive "albuquerque" from the Sanskrit "alpa-karkii" (nominative singular of "alpa-karkin", meaning owner of a small white horse). For various reasons I prefer this nirukti to that of the Pune pandits, who say it comes from "alpa-kalka", meaning either a tiny turd or a miniature ball of ear wax. As for the etymology of "Mexico", I am torn between those who derive it from "mokshakara" (liberator) and "megha-shekhara" (head in the clouds). Of all etymologies, my favorite of all time is one I read in a book dedicated to proving that Indian Buddhists were the first people to populate the Americas. The entire argument of the book was based on the etymologies of various Inuktitut, Tsalagi, Ohwejagehka, Lakota, Nakota, Dakota, Nahuatl and Quechua words that were obviously too similar to Sanskrit words to be coincidental. Alas, the only one I can now recall is the etymology of Guatamala, which clearly comes of gautama-aalaya, abode of Gautama. If you do not now believe that the Buddha was a Central American (why else would he call his religion the middle way?), you are clearly incapable of being persuaded by rational argumentation. -- Dh. Dayamati Albuquerque, New Mexico From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Mon Jun 27 16:34:56 2005 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Mon Jun 27 16:43:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque In-Reply-To: <200506271801.j5RI0pUv007782@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200506271801.j5RI0pUv007782@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050628002258.026328f8@pop.wxs.nl> Richard Hayes wrote : >The second question is complicated by the fact that an 'r' somehow got >dropped overboard between Spain and New Mexico. The Spanish place after >which the New Mexican town is named is spelled Alburquerque. That place, >and therefore the New Mexican town almost named after it, has two >etymologies. Some say it comes from the Latin name for a species of >tree, and other says it is the corruption of an Arabic phrase. >Naturally, I prefer the latter nirukti, but I have no reason whatsoever >for doing so, except that I like Arabs more than Romans. (We populists >always cheer on the underdogs, which may be why we become Buddhists.) Well, there is Alfonso de Albuquerque (1453-1515), Portuguese navigator and founder of the Portuguese trade empire in Asia. I have never seen that name spelled with an 'r'. Salaam Herman Zelders -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050628/a73e4af2/attachment.htm From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 17:10:53 2005 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Mon Jun 27 17:30:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Alburquerque In-Reply-To: <1119905749.472.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119905749.472.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <861203684.20050628011053@gmail.com> Richard Hayes wrote: PH> Of all etymologies, my favorite of all time is one I read in a book RPH> dedicated to proving that Indian Buddhists were the first people to RPH> populate the Americas. The entire argument of the book was based on the RPH> etymologies of various Inuktitut, Tsalagi, Ohwejagehka, Lakota, Nakota, RPH> Dakota, Nahuatl and Quechua words that were obviously too similar to RPH> Sanskrit words to be coincidental. Alas, the only one I can now recall RPH> is the etymology of Guatamala, which clearly comes of gautama-aalaya, RPH> abode of Gautama. If you do not now believe that the Buddha was a RPH> Central American (why else would he call his religion the middle way?), RPH> you are clearly incapable of being persuaded by rational argumentation. yes, some people claim Guatemala comes from "Gautama" and "mala". Besides the ADN similarities between maya and chinese people, there are many relates across times about the Chinese presence in America. Specially in years 299, 452. and 1421. About Buddhism, it seems there is an authentic text dated in 499 d.c in the imperial chinese archives in where appears an expedition in 421 a.c. of some Chinese buddhist monks to the "Fusang" country (America). Following their journey, some investigators found many "Hui" prefixes in people and places. Also a curious tribal people of that country who lives near a volcano cited in the chinese text. They still make designs of sacred jewels called "sakai-mona", filled with Buddhist symbols. ("Le rencontre du Bouddhisme et de l?Occident", Frederic Lenoir). br, From ziobro at wfu.edu Mon Jun 27 18:49:51 2005 From: ziobro at wfu.edu (Stanley J. Ziobro II) Date: Mon Jun 27 20:04:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Peter D. Junger wrote: > "Bruce G. Seidner Ph.D." writes: > > : Lots of folks have taken on Chomsky-like idealism. One of my favorites was > : Herbert Terrace who debunked the claims of "nurturing" an ape to use > : American Sign Language in the case of Nim Chimpsky. > > I am afraid that the Nim Chimpsky project was an effort to prove > Chomsky wrong. Chompsly's major linguistic postition, as I understand > it, is that all human beings have an inherent language faculty that > is not shared with other species and that is the same in all human > beings. > > Nor would Chomsky be happy with having his position referred to as > idealism. He claims that he is a dualist and traces his intellectual > ancestors to Descartes and the school of Port Royale. Or at least > he once claimed that and I am quite sure that he is no more capable > of admitting that he was wrong than is the President of the United > States. But then he---like most people---is much less likely to be > wrong than is the president of the United States. Yes, an less likely to be wrong than Bill Clinton was in so much of his presidency. Stan Ziobro From f-lehman at uiuc.edu Mon Jun 27 22:24:56 2005 From: f-lehman at uiuc.edu (f-lehman@uiuc.edu) Date: Mon Jun 27 23:01:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque Message-ID: <9da0d37b.1351731e.8243600@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Actually, he was the Duke d'Albuquerqueand was then Viceroy of the Indies From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 27 22:58:14 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 27 23:03:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 20:49 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > Yes, an less likely to be wrong than Bill Clinton was in so much of his > presidency. Clinton was wronged far more often than he was wrong. I would have no trouble ranking him the second or third best president in the 20th century, Carter being the best. The best president of the 21st century, I think, will be Hilary Clinton--unless we can find some Buddhist to run. (Sorry, folks, I decline to run, unless Steven Lane will be my campaign manager.) -- Richard Hayes *** "Everybody's crying `Peace on earth-- just as soon as we win this war.'" -- Mose Allison From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jun 27 23:25:43 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Jun 27 23:33:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050628002258.026328f8@pop.wxs.nl> References: <200506271801.j5RI0pUv007782@ns1.swcp.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050628002258.026328f8@pop.wxs.nl> Message-ID: <42C0DF57.5090405@unm.edu> Zelders.YH wrote: > Well, there is Alfonso de Albuquerque* *(1453-1515), Portuguese > navigator and founder of the Portuguese trade empire in Asia. I have > never seen that name spelled with an 'r'. The town in New Mexico was named after the Duke of Alburquerque. The town in New Mexico originally had that name. There are two stories to account for the how the first 'r' got dropped. One story is that it was dropped out of confusion with the Portuguese navigator. A second is that an early sign painter realized he did not have enough room to get all 12 letters on a sign and decided to drop one that no one would likely miss. (People tend to get lost somewhere between the first and last 'u', so any letter between the extreme u's is eliminable.) Owing to its being named after the Duke, the town in New Mexico is called the Duke City. The baseball team used to be called the Dukes, until the team, and the name, were sold to some other city. When Albuquerque got a new team, it was named the Isotopes, after a joke in a Homer Simson cartoon about a baseball team named the Albuquerque Isotopes. Jim Peavler and I have launched a rather expensive campaign to have the name of the baseball team changed to the Albuquerque Arhants. We'll use that name so long as we are in the minor leagues. When we make the majors, of course, we'll change the name to the Bodhisattvas. The state bird of New Mexico is a relative of the cuckoo called a Chapparel Cock, more commonly known as the roadrunner. It is far too silly to be a state bird, so Dr Peavler and I are campaigning to have the state bird changed to the gadfly. If that fails, we may have to settle for the garuda. It's a bird that eats Republicans. No Texans are allowed in New Mexico. We are a poor but proud state. Besides, if we allowed Texans in, none of us would be able to practice mettaa-bhaavanaa. -- Richard Hayes From StormyTet at aol.com Mon Jun 27 23:53:35 2005 From: StormyTet at aol.com (StormyTet@aol.com) Date: Tue Jun 28 07:40:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque Message-ID: <145.481a6d01.2ff23fdf@aol.com> In a message dated 6/28/2005 12:36:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rhayes@unm.edu writes: No Texans are allowed in New Mexico. We are a poor but proud state. Besides, if we allowed Texans in, none of us would be able to practice mettaa-bhaavanaa. -- Richard Hayes What about from Texas Austin? I love what I know of the UNM program in communications and would like to spend some time there ( a career?) and Texas Austin might be where I wind up for my doctoral work. Is it possible UNM will make an exception? :) I am enjoying the exchange on the list. I am currently working on my masters, studying the Internet/consciousness/the perennial philosophies. I am glad to be here, listening -- wanted to say hi. Stormy Tetreau Southern Illinois University Edwardsville -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050628/e2ff35c2/attachment-0001.htm From ziobro at wfu.edu Tue Jun 28 07:17:23 2005 From: ziobro at wfu.edu (Stanley J. Ziobro II) Date: Tue Jun 28 07:40:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: <1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> <1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 20:49 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > > > Yes, an less likely to be wrong than Bill Clinton was in so much of his > > presidency. > > Clinton was wronged far more often than he was wrong. I would have no > trouble ranking him the second or third best president in the 20th > century, Carter being the best. The best president of the 21st century, > I think, will be Hilary Clinton--unless we can find some Buddhist to > run. (Sorry, folks, I decline to run, unless Steven Lane will be my > campaign manager.) Richard, I appreciate your humor here. Your mention of a Buddhist running for President is an interesting thought, however. I wonder how that would play out in our nominally Christian country. Stan Ziobro From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jun 28 09:05:45 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Jun 28 09:13:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> <1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <005901c57bf2$dccfdfc0$2930cece@charlie> Sorry----FDR was the best president of the 20th c. , followed perhaps by Johnson. Clinton is terribly flawed because he supported the NAFTA regulations treaty or whatever it was, relieving the US of thousands of jobs as manufacture fled south of ze border. Clinton was/is a good speaker and was a suporter of civil rights but so was Johnson, who did not sell the USA working people down the Colorado river to Mexico, and later to China. Johnson's great society legislation helped a lot of poor, ill-educated citizens. There is no evidence that either president was influenced by Buddhism, but they were influenced by the best of the humanist and/or Christian philosophies of good works. As were their famous wives. I cannot take Hillary seriously even though she's a good orator. She's only a pol. Joanna ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard P. Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 20:49 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > >> Yes, an less likely to be wrong than Bill Clinton was in so much of his >> presidency. > > Clinton was wronged far more often than he was wrong. I would have no > trouble ranking him the second or third best president in the 20th > century, Carter being the best. The best president of the 21st century, > I think, will be Hilary Clinton--unless we can find some Buddhist to > run. (Sorry, folks, I decline to run, unless Steven Lane will be my > campaign manager.) > > -- > Richard Hayes > *** > "Everybody's crying `Peace on earth-- > just as soon as we win this war.'" -- Mose Allison > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.2/29 - Release Date: 6/27/2005 > > From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 28 09:32:49 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 28 09:33:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> <1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119972769.5463.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 09:17 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > Your mention of a Buddhist running for President is an interesting > thought, however. I wonder how that would play out in our nominally > Christian country. The United States is NOT a nominally Christian country. There is absolutely nothing in any of the legal documents on which this country is founded making it a Christian nation. It may be true that a majority of citizens south of the Mason-Dixon line are Christians, but there is such a large minority of non-Christians in the rest of the USA that it is offensive in the extreme to try to pass this nation off as being of any one religion. Please apologize immediately to the denizens of buddha-l or face deportation to an evangelical news group. And say 108 Hail Marys to atone for your sin. The United States has already had four Unitarian presidents (Adams pere and fils, Filmore and Taft), plus three who belonged to no church at all (Jefferson, Lincoln and Andrew Johnson), so right there we have seven presidents who were practically Buddhists. Hoover was a Quaker, so that makes eight Buddhists. Nixon was also a Quaker, but he was from the evangelical wing of the Quakers who have ordained ministers and noisy services rather than silent worship, so he was an anti-Buddhist. As I have said many times before, William H. Seward, Lincoln's Secretary of State, was a Buddhist (back in the days when it was still possible for a Whig turned Republican to be a Buddhist -- being a Buddhist Republican became impossible in 1964, when Goldwater abducted the GOP and turned it into a right-wing totalitarian force of darkness determined to undermine all the principles of the founding fathers). Seward, as you probably recall, bought Alaska, thereby making Alaska America's first Buddhist territory. -- Richard Hayes *** "Above all things, take heed in judging one another, for in that ye may destroy one another... and eat out the good of one another."-- George Fox From Nik.Macleod at proquest.co.uk Tue Jun 28 08:00:45 2005 From: Nik.Macleod at proquest.co.uk (Macleod, Nik) Date: Tue Jun 28 09:38:26 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) Message-ID: <81F2CB877E563643BDAEF118EBED0CCA034D26DC@INTLEXCHANGE.pqilintl.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of > Stanley J. Ziobro II > > I appreciate your humor here. Your mention of a Buddhist running for > President is an interesting thought, however. I wonder how that would > play out in our nominally Christian country. > Someone else seems to have had the same idea ... America Needs a Buddhist President B. Bevell Paperback 36 pages (April 2004) Publisher: White Cloud Press ISBN: 1883991978 Reviews Synopsis A bold, poetic vision of America under the leadership of a Buddhist president. Brett Bevell's prophetic voice and Eben Dodd's simple but elegant line drawings proclaim a radical alternative American dream in the tradition of Buddhism-inspired writers Allen Ginsburg and Jack Kerouac. Best regards Nik Macleod From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 28 10:02:22 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 28 10:03:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: S. Pinker In-Reply-To: <005901c57bf2$dccfdfc0$2930cece@charlie> References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu> <1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <005901c57bf2$dccfdfc0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <1119974543.5463.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 09:05 -0600, jkirk wrote: > Sorry----FDR was the best president of the 20th c. , followed perhaps by > Johnson. No, Carter was the best. It's a tie between Clinton and FDR for second place. The race for best president of the 20th century is not very interesting, because there are so few serious contenders. (How can one be best if none of them is even good?) There's not one of them who comes even close to the stature of Pierre Eliot Trudeau, who was probably the best leader in the world during the 20th century. Much more interesting is trying to figure out who was the worst president of the twentieth century. Where does one begin trying to figure out who was worst among Coolidge, Harding, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan and Bush? I suppose Nixon would be my vote for the worst president in US history before 2001. Kennedy and Johnson, who brought us the Vietnam war, would be close behind. In fact, it could be a three-way tie. There have been remarkably few presidents who have espoused anything like Buddhist principles. But then again, there have been remarkably few Buddhists who have espoused anything like Buddhist principles, so I guess it all works out evenly. As for Hillary Rodham Clinton, you had better start taking her seriously. She will be the next US president, narrowly defeating Condoleeza Rice. You heard it here first. Clinton-Richardson versus Rice-Rove in 2008. (I've never been wrong in predicting who the next US president will be, so you'll be wanting to visit this web site to learn about applying for Canadian citizenship: http://www.cic.gc.ca/) -- Dh. Dayamati Albuquerque, New Mexico From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 09:43:58 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Tue Jun 28 10:18:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque In-Reply-To: <42C0DF57.5090405@unm.edu> Message-ID: <20050628154358.79534.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I _beg_ your pardon, sir. Not all Texans are caricatures or stereotypes. You, as and educated man, are aware of the Bell Curve. Whilst the majority of the Lone Star State displays typical Texan characteristics, some don't (and some are worse). Texas has a small contingent of liberals. There are, apparently, a fair number of Buddhists too, not all of Asian descent. In time my wife (also an atypical native Texan) and I plan retire in New Mexico. Looks like a great place to live. In the meantime, there are some fine vacation spots on our list. I hope to drop by a few Zendos as well. Michael P.S. Speaking of New Mexico, I recommend the recently released indie movie Off The Map. C --- "Richard P. Hayes" wrote: > No Texans are allowed in New Mexico. We are a poor but proud state. > Besides, if we allowed Texans in, none of us would be able to > practice mettaa-bhaavanaa. > > -- > Richard Hayes __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 28 10:15:52 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 28 10:23:23 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque In-Reply-To: <145.481a6d01.2ff23fdf@aol.com> References: <145.481a6d01.2ff23fdf@aol.com> Message-ID: <1119975352.5463.67.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 01:53 -0400, StormyTet@aol.com wrote: > What about from Texas Austin? That all depends on whether they sing country music. Guitar pickers and whiny-voiced singers from Austin are not allowed in New Mexico. Other Austinians are welcome, provided they are certified Buddhists or are accompanied by a Democrat or (better yet) a member of the Green Party. > I am enjoying the exchange on the list. I am currently working on my > masters, studying the Internet/consciousness/the perennial > philosophies. That's a good combination. There's a perennial absence of consciousness on the Internet. I don't know whether you have caught on, but every message on buddha-l is automatically generated by a computer program. There's not a single mind behind anything written here. There's a rumor making the rounds that Google is interested in the buddha-l algorithm. -- Richard Hayes (a mere subroutine) From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jun 28 10:49:24 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Jun 28 10:53:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: S. Pinker Message-ID: <002201c57c01$571877c0$2930cece@charlie> Sorry-I meant NHS!! :( but it's an interesting slip o' the tongue. ======================= > (I've never been wrong in predicting who the next US >> president will be, so you'll be wanting to visit this web site to learn >> about applying for Canadian citizenship: http://www.cic.gc.ca/) >> >> -- >> Dh. Dayamati >> Albuquerque, New Mexico > ============================ > The Canadians have gone over to GW and they are cutting their INS. > This is not a choice. try Belize. There may even be some Buddhists in > Belize. > JK > From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jun 28 10:48:21 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Jun 28 10:53:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: S. Pinker References: <200506271454.j5REsH62009797@samsara.law.cwru.edu><1119934694.5508.3.camel@localhost.localdomain><005901c57bf2$dccfdfc0$2930cece@charlie> <1119974543.5463.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001b01c57c01$31b4a120$2930cece@charlie> (I've never been wrong in predicting who the next US > president will be, so you'll be wanting to visit this web site to learn > about applying for Canadian citizenship: http://www.cic.gc.ca/) > > -- > Dh. Dayamati > Albuquerque, New Mexico ============================ The Canadians have gone over to GW and they are cutting their INS. This is not a choice. try Belize. There may even be some Buddhists in Belize. JK From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 28 10:44:42 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 28 10:53:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque In-Reply-To: <20050628154358.79534.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050628154358.79534.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1119977083.5463.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 08:43 -0700, Michael Paris wrote: > Not all Texans are caricatures Here in New Mexico we spell that "character." And we pronounce "nuclear" "nuclear" rather than "nukular." > You, as an educated man, are aware of the Bell Curve. I think you mean a Ball curve. That's the shape of the side of a Ball jar. As it happens, I am descended from the Ball family, founder of Ball Jar Company and Ball State Teachers College, so I know all about Ball curves. I also know a thing or two about curve balls. They're very difficult to hit. > Texas has a small contingent of liberals. Jim Hightower, Andy Fort and you. That's three. Any others? > In time my wife (also an atypical native Texan) and I plan retire in > New Mexico. Looks like a great place to live. In fact, it's awful. It has become overcrowded, due mostly to the huge cockroach population and the influx of human beings from California. The rivers are dry. People plant cactus in their yards. All the food has chile in it. And New Mexicans are notoriously gruff and hostile to strangers. (They're all pretty much like me.) > In the meantime, there are some fine vacation spots on our list. I hope > to drop by a few Zendos as well. There are some pretty good zendos here, but watch out for the scorpions under the zafus. Zazen in New Mexico is a race between instant enlightenment and sudden death. -- Dh. Dayamati Albuquerque, New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jun 28 11:53:40 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Jun 28 12:03:23 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque References: <20050628154358.79534.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1119977083.5463.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001b01c57c0a$51acbf40$2930cece@charlie> > >> Texas has a small contingent of liberals. > > Jim Hightower, Andy Fort and you. That's three. Any others? =========================== Molly Ivins, of course. From SJZiobro at cs.com Tue Jun 28 13:29:54 2005 From: SJZiobro at cs.com (SJZiobro@cs.com) Date: Tue Jun 28 14:21:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) Message-ID: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> "Richard P. Hayes" wrote: >On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 09:17 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > >> Your mention of a Buddhist running for President is an interesting >> thought, however. ?I wonder how that would play out in our nominally >> Christian country. > >The United States is NOT a nominally Christian country. There is >absolutely nothing in any of the legal documents on which this country >is founded making it a Christian nation. It may be true that a majority >of citizens south of the Mason-Dixon line are Christians, but there is >such a large minority of non-Christians in the rest of the USA that it >is offensive in the extreme to try to pass this nation off as being of >any one religion. Please apologize immediately to the denizens of >buddha-l or face deportation to an evangelical news group. And say 108 >Hail Marys to atone for your sin. Richard, I think your criteria for determining whether the USA is nominally a Christian country or not differ from mine or from the Founders. The Hail Marys are a capital idea; I'll say them for your conversion, or at least honorable mention in the Vatican's secret files. I think this covers everything. Stan Ziobro From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 14:01:54 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Tue Jun 28 14:21:32 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Albuquerque In-Reply-To: <1119977083.5463.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050628200154.87168.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Richard P. Hayes" wrote: > On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 08:43 -0700, Michael Paris wrote: > > Not all Texans are caricatures > Here in New Mexico we spell that "character." And we pronounce > "nuclear" "nuclear" rather than "nukular." Indeed. So do I. Glad to hear there's not a language barrier. > > Texas has a small contingent of liberals. > Jim Hightower, Andy Fort and you. That's three. Any others? My wife. The few Buddhists I know in person. Some UUs at a church I used to attend. At least some of the members of the Disciples of Christ church I currently attend. State Rep. Lon Burnham. Bob Ray Sanders of KERA-TV, also a columnist for the Star-Telegram paper. Leonard Pitts, also a columnist. > > In time my wife (also an atypical native Texan) and I plan retire in New Mexico. Looks like a great place to live. > In fact, it's awful. It has become overcrowded, due mostly to the huge cockroach population and the influx of human beings from California. The rivers are dry. People plant cactus in their yards. All the food has chile in it. And New Mexicans are notoriously gruff and hostile to strangers. (They're all pretty much like me.) > Yum. A large food supply. Got some recipes? Why would Californians go to NM? Perfect! So are we. We'll fit right in. > > In the meantime, there are some fine vacation spots on our list. I hope to drop by a few Zendos as well. > There are some pretty good zendos here, but watch out for the scorpions under the zafus. Zazen in New Mexico is a race between instant enlightenment and sudden death. > My practice could use some intensity. I wonder why the Rinzai school hasn't adopted the use of scorpions under zafus. Seems logical. Michael ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jun 28 20:33:07 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Jun 28 20:33:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> References: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> Message-ID: <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 15:29 -0400, SJZiobro@cs.com wrote: > I think your criteria for determining whether the USA is nominally a > Christian country or not differ from mine or from the Founders. State your criteria and give me evidence showing they have been met. As for the founders of this nation, they had such a wide range of views that it is pure mythology to depict them as agreeing on the matter of religion. Besides, what any of the founders believed in the late decades of the 18th century could not possibly be binding on us in the first decade of the twenty-first century, so drop that red herring before it begins to stink. > The Hail Marys are a capital idea; I'll say them for your conversion, Conversion to what from what? I am already dedicated to cultivating virtue in every way I can. Is it your plan to convert me to seeking vice? -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 29 09:19:10 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 29 09:23:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius Message-ID: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Just in case there was any lingering doubt that the bracing idealism of the 1960s (most of which actually occurred in the 1970s) is dead, the following headline should be proof positive that the Age of Aquarius that dawned in the sixties has dimmed and died. BOB DYLAN TO RELEASE ALBUM THROUGH STARBUCKS Music legend Bob Dylan has signed a deal to release an upcoming live album exclusively through the Starbucks chain of coffee shops. FULL STORY: http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/06/28/Arts/dylan050628.html The times are no longer changin'. Now, not even the president of the United States sometimes has to stand naked. What else can we expect to bear on the news? That the resurrected Grateful Dead will be giving a benefit concert to help raise money for the management of Wal-Mart? That Robert Redford has agreed to go on the campaign trail for Tom DeLay? That Noam Chomsky has written a book denouncing the Palestinians and begging Ariel Sharon to bulldoze the town of Bethlehem to make way for a Noah's ark theme park managed by Chassidim? That Ralph Nader is going to launch a lawsuit against Linux for cutting into Microsoft profits? That Jack Kerouac was an undercover agent for the CIA? That Sgt Pepper was sexually abusing the members of the lonely hearts club? That in fact you won't still need me and won't still feed me when I'm sixty-four? It's easy to see without lookin' too far that not much is really sacred. Dylan indeed! I think Mr Zimmerman should be required to give his pseudonym back, the one he admits to having stolen from Dylan Thomas, and be placed in house arrest in Hibbing, Minnesota. Now I need to go drown my sorrows in a cup of herbal tea and ease the shock by doing a session of geriatric yoga. And then I'm going to light two sticks of incense on my Buddhist altar, one in front of Amitabha and the other in front of the picture of Che Guevara. God only knows whether I'll ever be able to write another message to buddha-l. Starbucks coffee is made with cockroach piss, you know. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From ziobro at wfu.edu Wed Jun 29 09:14:56 2005 From: ziobro at wfu.edu (Stanley J. Ziobro II) Date: Wed Jun 29 09:23:40 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] S. Pinker (linguist, cognitive psychologist) In-Reply-To: <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 15:29 -0400, SJZiobro@cs.com wrote: > > > I think your criteria for determining whether the USA is nominally a > > Christian country or not differ from mine or from the Founders. > > State your criteria and give me evidence showing they have been met. As > for the founders of this nation, they had such a wide range of views > that it is pure mythology to depict them as agreeing on the matter of > religion. Besides, what any of the founders believed in the late decades > of the 18th century could not possibly be binding on us in the first > decade of the twenty-first century, so drop that red herring before it > begins to stink. Determining the religious orientation of a nation is not restricted to constitutional provision. In the absense of such the criterion becomes what the dominant religious ethos is among the populace. Regarding religion our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and subsequent constitutional ammendments do not articulate the presence of an officiaal State Church, but rather its absense. This omission was intentional, deliberate, and judged right by the Founders in order, among other considerations, to allow the greatest freedom of religious observance among the people. The dominant religious ethos in the 18th century was Christian, and it remains so today in the 21st century. So, our nation is still basically a Christian one. As for your blanket statement that what binds in the 18th century cannot possibly be binding in the first decade of the 21st century, that is a red herring, and its obvious falsity stinks:). > > The Hail Marys are a capital idea; I'll say them for your conversion, > > Conversion to what from what? I am already dedicated to cultivating > virtue in every way I can. Is it your plan to convert me to seeking > vice? Only if you consider that certain forms of virtue are in fact vices would this be the case. But I am surprised that you would even pretend that you are taking my Hail Mary remarks seriously. My only real desire is that all people be able to nurture what is condusive in their lives to authentic peace, well-being, and happiness. You don't have to be bothered that my personal judgment of what this constitutes may differ from yours now, do you? Virtuously yours, Stan Ziobro From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 29 11:37:39 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 29 11:43:40 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: S. Pinker In-Reply-To: References: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120066659.6540.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 11:14 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > The dominant religious ethos in the 18th century was Christian, and it > remains so today in the 21st century. There is no reason to believe either of these statements. The question of what a religious ethos is and what "dominant" means makes your claim meaningless. In other words, what you are obviously trying to do is to claim the USA for Christianity. I cannot think of a more offensive move to make. > So, our nation is still basically a Christian one. A nation dedicated to greedy consumerism, unwarranted invasions of other countries and abandoning its own poor and disenfranchised is Christian? My understanding of Christianity is admittedly limited, but I had thought that it was a religion that took a radical departure from the values of the Romans. > As for your blanket statement that what binds in the 18th > century cannot possibly be binding in the first decade of the 21st > century, that is a red herring, and its obvious falsity stinks:). That principle has been articulated by the Supreme Court on several occasions, in the context of this very issue. So it is neither false nor a red herring. > But I am surprised that you would even pretend that you are taking my > Hail Mary remarks seriously. I take it the Hail Mary comment was offered in jest, and I responded in kind, as I'm sure you have figured out. No need to carry the joke any further by pretending to have been joking when in fact you were being serious. > My only real desire is that all people be able to nurture what is > condusive in their lives to authentic peace, well-being, and > happiness. You evade questions much better than you answer them. (You have mastered the art of imitating our esteemed president.) Let me ask again: From what to what would you convert me or anyone else, even in jest? -- Richard Hayes *** "Books are useless to us until our inner book opens; then all other books are good so far as they confirm our book." (Swami Vivekananda) From mike at lamrim.org.uk Wed Jun 29 11:55:32 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Wed Jun 29 12:03:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> In message <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Richard P. Hayes writes >And then I'm going to light >two sticks of incense on my Buddhist altar, one in front of Amitabha and >the other in front of the picture of Che Guevara. ... maybe better to offer one to Che Nrezig. -- Metta Mike Austin From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 29 12:07:54 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 29 12:13:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] is america christian (was: pinker) In-Reply-To: <1120066659.6540.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120066659.6540.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42C2E37A.5040608@cola.iges.org> A good test case for Richard's thesis that the US of A is not a Christian nation was the reception of Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason". The reception was such that Paine fled the country for several years and was physically assaulted by angry mobs on his return. While Paine claimed (rightly so, in my opinion) that his views were not irreligious - they were quite explicitly anti-Christian. If a public figure of Paine's stature could not publicly criticize Christianity without such dire consequences I don't see how anyone could maintain that early post-Revolutionary America was anything but a Christian nation. At the very least it is obvious that America was, and remains, intolerant of all religions save Christianity - and that seems to me to be a pretty good definition of Christian nation. That other religions do indeed exist in the US does not diminish the fact that the society is intolerant of those religions. Just as the fact (if, indeed, it is) that Lincoln was gay does not in any way diminish the intolerance toward gays that existed in the 1860's and that still exists (possibly - but also possibly not) to a lesser extent today. - Curt From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 29 12:09:12 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 29 12:13:48 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sosan Taesa In-Reply-To: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42C2E3C8.8010502@cola.iges.org> I am researching the 16th century Korean Zen Master Sosan Taesa (aka Seosan Daesa, aka Seosan Hyujeong). There are two really interesting things about him, in my opinion: (1) He wrote a "Handbook for Zen Students" that is still in use by Korean Buddhists today. According to my limited understanding of Yogacara this handbook is positively dripping with the influence of that school. While this is not necessarily surprising considering the fact that Bodhidharma came to China armed with the Lankavatara Sutra - nevertheless I have never seen a Zen text that is so obviously "Yogacarin". This could be due to my limited understanding of Yogacara (ie, I don't necessarily know what to look for) - but when I read the section in Paul Williams "Buddhist Thought" about Yogacara it was immediately obvious to me that that Sosan Taesa's "Handbook" was directly inspired by this school. (2) He led a guerrilla army against the Japanese invasion of Korea late in the sixteenth century. His status as a national hero because of this eclipses his fame as a Zen Master. From what I have read all present day Korean Zen teachers trace their lineage back to this guerrilla commander - who only gave "transmission" to the four students who served as his lieutenants in the war. Unfortunately right now I don't speak or read Korean (I hope to remedy that some day) - the English sources I have found on Sosan Taesa are limited to: (1) A Harvard masters thesis by Rebbecca Bernen which includes a complete English translation of the Handbook. (2) An "Overview of Korean Buddhism" by Charles Muller, which is available on-line at: http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/kor-bud/korbud-overview.html (3) The book "Thousand Peaks" by Mu Soeng, which contains the first third of the Handbook and historical material on Sosan Taesa. (4) A book entitled "Paragon of Zen House" which is attributed to Seosan Hyujeong (whom I think is the same person as Sosan Taesa) which is available in an English translation by Ohyun Park. Of these four I have 2 &3 - I just ordered 4 through abebooks.com, and I am trying to figure out how to get ahold of Bernen's thesis. Does anyone out there know of other sources of information about Sosan Taesa in English?? - Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 29 12:31:00 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 29 12:33:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> Message-ID: <1120069860.6540.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 18:55 +0100, Mike Austin wrote: > ... maybe better to offer one to Che Nrezig. Sorry, but I need a few communist revolutionaries on my altar. There are two reasons for this. First, I like to remind myself that Amitabha was a pretty radical guy. Second, I have to live up to the false impressions that others have of me. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 29 12:52:17 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 29 12:53:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> Message-ID: <42C2EDE1.3060008@cola.iges.org> Unlike your typical Mahayanist, for whom the concept of helping others is purely a theoretical construct, Che dedicated his life to actually helping other actual human beings. This, it turns out, is much messier and far more ambiguous (to put it nicely) than just reciting the "four vows". We were talking earlier about the "contagion" of niceness: "spreading" niceness, as opposed to simply being nice. Che has inspired millions of people to devote themselves to the cause of helping others. While much of the world fools itself into thinking that Globalization is a done deal and its nothing but "free-markets" from here on out - the "children of Che" in Latin American are creating a different reality. We'll see whose reality turns out to be "more real". It turns out that many Latin American revolutionaries are Zen Buddhists, but they are followers of the Korean Zen Master Sosan Taesa, as opposed to those more "pacifistic" (ha!) Zen Masters from Japan. - Curt Mike Austin wrote: > In message <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Richard > P. Hayes writes > >> And then I'm going to light >> two sticks of incense on my Buddhist altar, one in front of Amitabha and >> the other in front of the picture of Che Guevara. > > > ... maybe better to offer one to Che Nrezig. > From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 13:33:06 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Wed Jun 29 13:33:42 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050629193306.4406.qmail@web32612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Would that be an export from New Mexico, since you stated there's an abundance of such creatures thereabouts? Michael --- "Richard P. Hayes" wrote: > Starbucks coffee is made with cockroach piss, you know. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 29 14:12:44 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 29 14:13:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <20050629193306.4406.qmail@web32612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050629193306.4406.qmail@web32612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1120075965.7357.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:33 -0700, Michael Paris wrote: > Would that be an export from New Mexico, since you stated there's an > abundance of such creatures thereabouts? It's quite possible that Starbucks coffee is made with pip? de cucaracha only in New Mexico. It's the only water we can find. (The state of Texas sued New Mexico a while back over water rights and won, so we have to let the Rio Grande and Rio Pecos flow through the state directly into Texas without taking any water from them. You can see, perhaps, why the residents of this state have a penchant for Texas-bashing. I have no idea why the other 48 states do it. Copying New Mexico, I guess.) By the way, I have carefully reviewed your application to retire in New Mexico. It meets with my approval, although I am reluctant to reduce the number of liberals living in Texas. So far as I can see, there are eight of you in the state, and if you and your wife leave, that will leave only six. If you ever do move here, give me a call. We can go to Starbucks and listen to Dylan's new album and talk about Buddhism (which is never discussed on buddha-l any more). -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From A.Fort at tcu.edu Wed Jun 29 12:14:47 2005 From: A.Fort at tcu.edu (Fort, Andrew) Date: Wed Jun 29 14:31:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas liberals Message-ID: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E870B@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> Not that this has much to do with Buddhism, but there are a lot of liberals in the People's Republic of Austin. And I want to put in a word for my friend Lon Burnam, a state representative from Fort Worth, who is a pacifist fighting the good fight in the state legislature. That group is currently in session trying to figure out how to pay for educating children without interfering with tax breaks for the richest Texans. And if you want to visit a place that isn't full of sissies who are hesitant to apply the death penalty, come on down! Andy Fort From ckalwaitis at mariancollege.edu Wed Jun 29 14:10:00 2005 From: ckalwaitis at mariancollege.edu (Carl Kalwaitis) Date: Wed Jun 29 14:31:39 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kalupahana Message-ID: To all list members: Does anyone have an opinion about David Kalupahana? That is, would you regard him as a reliable and insightful Buddhist scholar? Thank you, Carl Kalwaitis Philosophy Dept. Marian College From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 29 14:30:06 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 29 14:33:44 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] is america christian (was: pinker) In-Reply-To: <42C2E37A.5040608@cola.iges.org> References: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120066659.6540.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42C2E37A.5040608@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1120077006.7357.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:07 -0400, curt wrote: > A good test case for Richard's thesis that the US of A is > not a Christian nation was the reception of Thomas Paine's > "Age of Reason". The reception was such that Paine fled > the country for several years and was physically assaulted > by angry mobs on his return. Paine's work, like Ethan Allen's, was only one of numerous pleas for rational religion (a contradiction in terms if ever there was one). These folks, to whose noble company we could add John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, argued against biblical revelation and for the idea that God is the principle of rationality that supposedly inclines us all to notions of universal justice. Interestingly enough, the radical liberalism of these fellows was blamed almost entirely on the French. (As the Eagles almost said, this on this continent change very slowly if they ever change at all.) > If a public figure of Paine's stature could not publicly criticize > Christianity without such dire consequences I don't see how anyone > could maintain that early post-Revolutionary America was anything but > a Christian nation. If a public figure of Paine's stature met such rabid disapproval for merely stating his convictions, I don't see how anyone could maintain that early post-Revolutionary America was even close to being Christian. > At the very least it is obvious that America was, and remains, > intolerant of all religions save Christianity - and that seems to me > to be a pretty good definition of Christian nation. Americans are just intolerant by nature. The country's atheists are every bit as intolerant of Christians as its Christians are of secularists. Hell, even the Buddhists tend to be intolerant in this country. Heaven knows why all this intolerance prevails. > Just as the fact (if, indeed, it is) that Lincoln was gay If he was ever gay, he certainly wasn't when photographers were around. There is not a single photograph of Lincoln smiling. How gay can a guy be if he can't even smile? -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From mike at lamrim.org.uk Wed Jun 29 14:41:52 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Wed Jun 29 14:43:45 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <42C2EDE1.3060008@cola.iges.org> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> <42C2EDE1.3060008@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: In message <42C2EDE1.3060008@cola.iges.org>, curt writes >Unlike your typical Mahayanist, for whom the concept of >helping others is purely a theoretical construct, Che dedicated >his life to actually helping other actual human beings. This, it >turns out, is much messier and far more ambiguous (to put it >nicely) than just reciting the "four vows". Please don't think this way. The 'typical' Mahayanist that I know does both. One of my favourite quotes is from the Dhammapada. "Like a beautiful brightly coloured flower without fragrance Is the well-spoken word without action. Like a beautiful brightly coloured full of fragrance Is the well-spoken word and the deed that matches the word." I found this very inspiring when I joined the "Stop the War" marches in London before the war on Iraq. -- Metta Mike Austin From mike at lamrim.org.uk Wed Jun 29 14:46:45 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Wed Jun 29 14:53:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Laws of the land Message-ID: Can anybody point me in the right direction to find some advice from the Buddha regarding living within the laws of the land (or not, as the case may be)? -- Metta Mike Austin From bclough at aucegypt.edu Wed Jun 29 14:29:12 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Wed Jun 29 15:01:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: Book on Just War and Dhamma in SL Message-ID: Dear Joanna, It is definitely a worthwhile read--very well done, and both fascinating and disturbing. Best, Brad > Since we are in the midst of war, I'd be interested to know if anyone has > read this fairly recent book: > Tessa Bartholomeusz, _In Defense of Dhamma: Just-war Ideology in Buddhist > Sri Lanka_ (London: RoutledgeCurzon, 2002)------and what they think of the > discussion therein. > > Best, Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Bradley Clough (bclough@aucegypt.edu)/202-797-6122 Abdulhadi H. Taher Professor of Comparative Religion History Department (Postal Code #221) The American University in Cairo 113 Kasr El Aini Street, P.O. Box 2511 Cairo 11511 Egypt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050629/592f6afd/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 29 17:08:08 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 29 17:13:44 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain><5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> <42C2EDE1.3060008@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <007a01c57cff$6a569110$2930cece@charlie> Lately, seeing how much resistance to Uncle Sam is appearing in South America, I'm beginning to feel a bit of hope. When I was photographing truck art in Thailand in 1985, I found one truck with the head of Che, familiar from many posters, on its door. Joana ============== > Unlike your typical Mahayanist, for whom the concept of > helping others is purely a theoretical construct, Che dedicated > his life to actually helping other actual human beings. This, it > turns out, is much messier and far more ambiguous (to put it > nicely) than just reciting the "four vows". > > We were talking earlier about the "contagion" of niceness: > "spreading" niceness, as opposed to simply being nice. Che > has inspired millions of people to devote themselves to the > cause of helping others. While much of the world fools itself > into thinking that Globalization is a done deal and its nothing > but "free-markets" from here on out - the "children of Che" > in Latin American are creating a different reality. We'll see > whose reality turns out to be "more real". It turns out that > many Latin American revolutionaries are Zen Buddhists, > but they are followers of the Korean Zen Master Sosan > Taesa, as opposed to those more "pacifistic" (ha!) Zen > Masters from Japan. > > - Curt From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 29 18:20:00 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Jun 29 18:23:45 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas liberals References: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E870B@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> Message-ID: <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> Fort, Andrew wrote: >And if you want to visit a place that isn't full of sissies who are >hesitant > to apply the death penalty, come on down! Not sure how we are supposed to take this, but if it means what I think it means, you guys ought to look at a list of other countries that retain the death penalty. Nice company you keep. Just confirms the image that the US projects to the world these days: a backward, barbaric country that is largely populated by morons. Stephen Hodge From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jun 29 18:44:05 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Jun 29 18:53:46 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <007a01c57cff$6a569110$2930cece@charlie> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain><5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> <42C2EDE1.3060008@cola.iges.org> <007a01c57cff$6a569110$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <42C34055.4090201@cola.iges.org> Where there is resistance there is hope - and where there are trucks sporting the likeness of Che there is likely to be resistance! Bolivia would probably be a photographer's dream come true these days. The images coming out of there are pretty amazing. - Curt jkirk wrote: > Lately, seeing how much resistance to Uncle Sam is appearing in South > America, I'm beginning to feel a bit of hope. When I was photographing > truck art in Thailand in 1985, I found one truck with the head of Che, > familiar from many posters, on its door. > Joana > ============== > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jun 29 19:18:43 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Jun 29 19:23:46 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] is america christian (was: pinker) References: <1C58D293.664D2481.007A239A@cs.com> <1120012387.7517.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120066659.6540.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42C2E37A.5040608@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <004401c57d11$a80bd170$2930cece@charlie> At the very least it is obvious that America > was, and remains, intolerant of all religions save Christianity - > and that seems to me to be a pretty good definition of Christian > nation. That other religions do indeed exist in the US does not > diminish the fact that the society is intolerant of those religions. > Just as the fact (if, indeed, it is) that Lincoln was gay does not > in any way diminish the intolerance toward gays that existed > in the 1860's and that still exists (possibly - but also possibly > not) to a lesser extent today. > - Curt ======================== Weeelllll..........I'm not sure you are right about the degree of US intolerance for non Xtian religions. Look at all the high and mighty temples, synagogues, mountain retreats, chortens and stupas, and mosques from times past and exponentially increasing. Until the Rove machine revved up the ignorant Xtian right-wing, I'd been under the impression --having lived for years on both coasts but I admit not in the center--(I refuse to refer to that as the "heartland"--yuk) -- that most US people were indifferent to others' religions and even spared little time for their own "native" brands. The twin towers disaster gave an extreme jolt to all the fanatics--of all the main brands of religion in this country. It afforded the neocon administration the golden opportunity to prey on people's fears and paranoia, influencing them to turn back the clock to the middle ages and passive reliance on god or gods for protection, solace, and better business. It gave impetus to a new brand of evangelical preachers to turn on the bubble machine, go back to preaching fire and brimstone and energized fake healing, solicit tons of money for gigantic new churches, and also pay for illegal participation in politics as they enjoyed their tax-free real estate. If Xtianity is dominant as you say, it has only become so recently with a lot of help from their, er, friends in high places. Best, Joanna ================================= From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 29 19:52:43 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Jun 29 19:53:46 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas liberals References: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E870B@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> Message-ID: <003301c57d16$7becdbc0$93614e51@zen> Dear Andy, >>And if you want to visit a place that isn't full of sissies who are >>hesitant to apply the death penalty, come on down! > > Not sure how we are supposed to take this, but if it means what I think it > means, you guys ought to look at a list of other countries that retain the > death penalty. Nice company you keep. Just confirms the image that the > US projects to the world these days: a backward, barbaric country that is > largely populated by morons. It has been suggested to me off-list that you were speaking sarcastically, so please do not take my comments personally if you were doing so. But please be aware that it is not at obvious to those of us who cannot pick up on the contextual clues. I doubt anybody outside the US has any idea who Lon Burnam is, what he stands for, or even what is the significance of your "People's Republic of Austin". Best wishes. Stephen Hodge From StormyTet at aol.com Wed Jun 29 21:17:03 2005 From: StormyTet at aol.com (StormyTet@aol.com) Date: Wed Jun 29 21:23:49 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] consciousness Message-ID: <1ab.3ae72ac6.2ff4be2f@aol.com> Hi Everyone, Thank you for the welcome. As I mentioned before I am looking at the impact of computer mediated communication on consciousness. In the course of my research I am meeting all kinds of interesting folks who appear to be exhibiting a lot signs of altered states of consciousness via internet interactions. Having recently read Ken Wilber's work on the psychopathologies of the higher states of consciousness and also his pre/trans fallacy (concerning regressive and progressive states of consciousness mimicking each other), I am feeling that I need to get a good intellectual grounding in terms of what the buddhist traditions talk about in terms of consciousness integration and the problems that can arise. Does anybody have a suggestion as to where to begin? I actually found the Tibeten Book of the Dead somewhat helpful, but I am hoping for some clear cut commentary. Thank you, Stormy Tetreau -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050629/714aec50/attachment.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jun 29 21:47:22 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Jun 29 21:53:48 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals In-Reply-To: <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> References: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E870B@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> Message-ID: <1120103242.9304.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 01:20 +0100, Stephen Hodge wrote: > I think it means, you guys ought to look at a list of other countries > that retain the death penalty. Nice company you keep. Yes, it really is a disgrace that the death penalty has not been abolished throughout the United States. There are some states that do not allow it, but it really should be abolished everywhere in this country (and on the planet and in the galaxy). Abolition of the death penalty is, however, unlikely to occur within the next few decades in los Estados Unidos, until Buddhists make up the majority in the all three branches of government. > Just confirms the image that the US projects to the world these days: > a backward, barbaric country that is largely populated by morons. Saying that most Americans are morons does not do justice to the problem. The problem is not that Americans lack native intelligence, as morons do, but that we are so abysmally educated. The educational system has been made dramatically worse by the Bush administration, of course, whose only interest in education is to see people kept so ignorant that they will vote for Republicans. The impoverished educational system, I suggest, is the principal reason why the following statistics obtain in the USA: 76% of the population believe in the biblical account of creation; 79% believe that the miracles described in the Bible literally occurred; 76% believe in angels and the devil; 67% believe they will continue to be conscious after the death of the material body; 15% believe that Darwin's theory of evolution is the best hypothesis for the origins of life on earth. My guess is that one would have to go either to a Muslim country or a Buddhist country to find people with beliefs as backwards as those. The sad thing is, it ain't Texas's fault. In a national survey of educators, who were asked to name the best faculties in their fields, University of Texas in Austin came within the top three in almost every field, and first in many. University of Texas, and other universities in the state, manage to attract the finest teachers and scholars (such as our own Andy Fort, a long-time denizen of buddha-l). The most recent US president who was truly a Texan (in contrast to los Bushes, padre y hijo, who were born and brought up in Connecticut and moved to Texas for opportunistic motivations) was actually pretty good for the educational systems in this country. Here comes one of my very rare moments of seriousness, even verging on sincerity: I have a little bit (not a hell of a lot, but at least some) remorse for poking fun at Texas. I can't hepp it. Making fun of Texans is the official state recreational activity in New Mexico, and I love recreation almost as much as I loved the first creation. But I really ought to keep Texas jokes to myself, rather than airing them on an international forum such as buddha-l. Besides, making fun of Texans distracts people's minds from Republicans, which is what Buddhists are bound by Dharmic vows to ridicule. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From c_castell at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 00:33:51 2005 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Thu Jun 30 00:43:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] is america christian (was: pinker) In-Reply-To: <1120077006.7357.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050630063351.93746.qmail@web60821.mail.yahoo.com> America is just one country or is a continent? I now a lot of you live in what you call "America"!!!!????? (I thought you tried to be precise somehow when you spoke....smile, smile) but just to remind you that buddhist and people live around the world, I really do not care what "americans" are. (kind of tired of.....).........generalisations are difficult. I would say that more than christians or not, "americans" are mostly just indifferent, self centered and ignorant of what happens around them and around the world, like living in a film, but this is just a generalisation...I have friends in the United States that are compassionate, aware, etc, but I guess "the mass" just don't care, do not have political opinion, etc, and that is the problem: indifference........that is why some minorities (I like to think they are minorities) try to rule the country (and the world) in a not compassionated way. But again, not the only ones, indifference is contagious..... Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050629/ac58b769/attachment.html From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 02:11:49 2005 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu Jun 30 02:14:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <1120103242.9304.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E870B@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> <1120103242.9304.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> > > > I think it means, you guys ought to look at a list of other countries > > that retain the death penalty. Nice company you keep. Kalyanamitra Richard wrote: Yes, it really is a disgrace that the death penalty has not been > abolished throughout the United States. There are some states that do > not allow it, but it really should be abolished everywhere in this > country (and on the planet and in the galaxy). Abolition of the death > penalty is, however, unlikely to occur within the next few decades in > los Estados Unidos, until Buddhists make up the majority in the all > three branches of government. Ironically, Thailand, Sri Lanka and Japan, three traditionally Buddhist countries still retain the death penalty. There must be something there that makes 'karunicity' not a conditio sine qua non for social cohesion. For me, I was for a long time parrotting the human rights rhetoric that humans have a right to life. But, -scrutinize that claim closely-, is that so? What 'essence' (I'm aware of the implications of this choice of word) do people have to claim the right to life? Excluding abortion, mercy killing and euthanasia from this here discussion, I'd opt to say this so called 'right to life' can be taken away in some exclusive cases. My starting point to say this is the status of 'civility' or a form of social contract that grants the right to participation and share in the fruits of the toil of previous generations, based on the prospect of present or future contributions to the community. When this participation is corrupted by mental illness leading to murder, murderous recidivism, mindless killing (not, for instance, the killing of a corrupt tiran), or no prospect of succesful reintegration, than I'd say the death penalty is a good option. It is, ironically, more human to kill that person than to dope him/her up and stick him/her away in a mental institution for the rest of that person's life. This is not about retribution, it's about making useful use of the money that would otherwise go to 'keeping life sentenced people alive (under strict conditions like: 'no prospect of succesful reintegration', ...)', because of the sturdy principle of 'right to life', which only serves itself. You can ask yourself, 'should a serial murderer be kept alive, just because he has 'the right to life'?' I'm not saying every murderer should get the death penalty, but I say that (honest and integer) governments should have the right to kill persons that disrupt social cohesion or cause mass suffering by murder (a act-consequentialist ethic seems in place here). The problem with legalising/carrying out the death penalty is that some governments will make abuse of it. But that alone is not a good reason abolish it. The debate on the death penalty should not be: 'Death penalty: yes/no', but 'Death penalty: in what case?', just like any other ethical discussion. Stefan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/a51da060/attachment.htm From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 02:36:40 2005 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu Jun 30 02:43:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kalupahana In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4526ba44050630013616ef0281@mail.gmail.com> > Does anyone have an opinion about David Kalupahana? That is, would > you regard him as a reliable and insightful Buddhist scholar? I don' know him personally, but I read his 'Ethics in Early Buddhism' (EEB), which, in my beginning years in the study of Buddhism, was quite impressive. Now, however, I find his attempts to 'synchronize' Buddhist ethics with Western ethics/pragmatism/utilitarianism a bit flawed and compulsive. You can wonder what his agenda is to try and observe similarities between them. For classically schooled philosophers in the West, recycling their encyclopedic knowledge of Western philosophy, it might serve as a shallow intro to Buddhist Ethics, but once you get behind the introduction, it becomes a bit dissappointing. Maybe you can read Damien Keown's review on that book right below. http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/damien.htm Not having read it entirely, it airs some of my observations on that particular book. Then, there's 'The History of Buddhist Thought. Continuities and Discontinuities', which is more a thematically arranged discussion of pivotal texts in the development of Buddhist thought, rather than a chronological one. It breathes the same breath of postmodern 'all philosophies are alike', which, in a continuity with his EEB, uses the same rhetoric. Too many assumptions are unexplained for a satisfactory reading. He discusses certain elements found in texts as if those elements are representative for the whole texts/tradition that goes with it. Here's the review. http://books.philosophyarchive.com/free.php?in=us&asin=0824814029 He also has his translation of Nagarjuna's MMK, which was also received with reluctance. Kalupahana is interesting to study how Western discourse is attempted to fit Buddhist discourse in explanatory models. But that's food for thought for literary critics, and less so, buddhologists. Stefan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/4cfdf939/attachment.html From c_castell at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 02:54:14 2005 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Thu Jun 30 03:03:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050630085414.67547.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Stephan Detrez wrote: I do not agree with that. Honest and integer governments?......just name one......To me a government or a person that can justifie "killing" and do it, is a murderer as well. I remember reading stories about bhikkus killing somebody to defend some disciples of being killed, I thought at the time that this is a choice, of the person involved at the particular situation. To make assasination "legal" is another subjet......I do not have a solution for serial killers, etc, people really mad or so, but I guess that you start justifying those "legal killings" in "some cases" and then you finish killing a lot of people that are just people or even innocents. In your statement, does it means that this would include to be able to kill governments that "disrupt social cohesion or cause mass suffering by murder" ? Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/3a55cbb1/attachment.htm From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 04:45:47 2005 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu Jun 30 04:53:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <20050630085414.67547.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> <20050630085414.67547.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4526ba4405063003452daf4836@mail.gmail.com> 2005/6/30, Catalina Castell-du Payrat : > > Stefan Detrez wrote: > that (honest and integer) governments should have the right to kill persons > that disrupt social cohesion or cause mass suffering by murder (a > act-consequentialist ethic seems in place here). > > I do not agree with that. Honest and integer governments?......just name > one......To me a government or a person that can justifie "killing" and do > it, is a murderer as well. > That makes no sense. Justifying an operation doesn't make you a surgeon, by analogy. Some governments have a good reputation. It's a bit of a populist assumption that politicians only want the bad. The Swiss governement, for instance. If you read the Asokavadana (tr. John Strong), you'll notice Asoka's punishments were mind-boggling: cooking someone in hot oil, for instance (as in the Laws of Manu, pouring hot oil in Dasya's mouths). Such punishments were, arguably, common. The Buddha was a pacifist influence going counter to such punishments, but he never achieved the goal of having no death penalties altogether. I wonder what the vinaya says on the issue of the death penalty - as far as we take its answer as a guiding line for our discussion. Murderers (Angulimala) were eventually accepted in the sangha, to avoid punishment or to lead the holy life or both. > I remember reading stories about bhikkus killing somebody to defend some > disciples of being killed, I thought at the time that this is a choice, of > the person involved at the particular situation. To make assasination > "legal" is another subjet......I do not have a solution for serial killers, > etc, people really mad or so, but I guess that you start justifying those > "legal killings" in "some cases" and then you finish killing a lot of people > that are just people or even innocents. > Killing innocents musn't be a side effect. A thorough investigation should lead to a verdict. I count on the integrity and honesty of the courts to decide on the possible /implementation/ of the death penalty. In your statement, does it means that this would include to be able to kill > governments that "disrupt social cohesion or cause mass suffering by murder" > ? > To kill a whole government is no good choice. It's most of the time the person either concocting malicious deeds or the person carrying them out. As I stated, if someone would have killed Hitler in his early years, or Stalin or Pol Pot, I think the killer would do the world a favor and would, in consequence, create favorable conditions for social cohesion and development. Such person would generally considered a hero, depending on which side you are. Such case should not be given the death penalty as the results of such death would be beneficial for the wellness of a country. You can ask yourself the question what would happen if somebody would have shot Rumsfeld before he decided to push through his plans for an invasion in Iraq. Maybe there'd be no war, or maybe someone else would do the job. Who knows? Don't get me wrong: I'm not justifying killing any person which is regarded 'bad', but some extreme cases require a different reasoning. Such cases would be supererogatory and would/should not be judged by conventional standards. Conventional standards would in such cases lead to discrimination of the benevolent and sanctifying of the malevolent. Go back into time. Nobody cared when Ceauscescu was shot - no Human Rights Organisation stood up for a fair trial or protested and all, because his case was so obvious that only some die hard deontologists would plead for a life sentence, which -in case of dictators-, generally means being restricted to live in a big house with good foods and excellent medicare. For that matter, the future will show in what 'prison' former Iraqi president Hussein will end up. Stefan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/6237d139/attachment.html From c_castell at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 05:23:55 2005 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Thu Jun 30 05:33:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <4526ba4405063003452daf4836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050630112355.19921.qmail@web60815.mail.yahoo.com> I just think that institutionalizing death is not a good choice to resolve this problem, even if you may think that it would be better if some people just didn't exist.......and about goverments, not all of them are bad of course but I don't think you may give them all the trust, based on reputation?..........we have a saying in spanish: A million flies can not be wrong, they all eat sh..... Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/90060d12/attachment.htm From A.Fort at tcu.edu Thu Jun 30 07:53:07 2005 From: A.Fort at tcu.edu (Fort, Andrew) Date: Thu Jun 30 07:53:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas (quasi-Buddhist) liberals Message-ID: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E8710@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> I'm sorry Stephen Hodge (and possibly others) thought I was serious--one of the problems of e-communication (and one of the reasons that emoticons, for all their flaws, can be an upaya). As a longtime member of Amnesty International, I was persuaded about the worthlessness and immorality of the death penalty long ago, and have never made peace with living in the land of state-sponsored murder (no matter how heinous some killers are). For international readers, "people's republic of ...." is a term both liberals and conservatives use to describe left-leaning cities in the U. S. Austin is far and away the most liberal city in Texas. Quasi-Buddhist content: one of the great unresolved issues in my life is reconciling my deep anger and shame at many things my country does, particularly led by Bush, with the clear value I see in realizing emptiness and other Buddhist teachings. How does Thich Nhat Hanh do it? Andy Fort From clasqm at mweb.co.za Thu Jun 30 02:58:38 2005 From: clasqm at mweb.co.za (Michel Clasquin) Date: Thu Jun 30 08:17:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42C3B43E.80201@mweb.co.za> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > Just in case there was any lingering doubt that the bracing idealism of > the 1960s (most of which actually occurred in the 1970s) is dead, the > following headline should be proof positive that the Age of Aquarius > that dawned in the sixties has dimmed and died. > > BOB DYLAN TO RELEASE ALBUM THROUGH STARBUCKS Well, as ol' Bob himself said in a recent song, "I used to care, but things have changed". -- "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 09:55:17 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Thu Jun 30 10:03:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas liberals In-Reply-To: <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> Message-ID: <20050630155517.53581.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sarcastically, I'm sure. A certain degree of eagerness to use the death penalty is horrible, for want of a better word. Certainly nothing I'm proud of. In my own defense, I do vote in _every_ election (state and local) and not for the ruling party. It's not uncommon for voter turnout to be in the single digits. No wonder the special interests get elected. Michael --- Stephen Hodge wrote: > Fort, Andrew wrote: > > >And if you want to visit a place that isn't full of sissies who are hesitant to apply the death penalty, come on down! > > Not sure how we are supposed to take this, but if it means what I > think it means, you guys ought to look at a list of other countries that retain the death penalty. Nice company you keep. Just confirms the image that the US projects to the world these days: a backward, barbaric country that is largely populated by morons. > > Stephen Hodge __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 10:00:43 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Thu Jun 30 10:04:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas liberals In-Reply-To: <003301c57d16$7becdbc0$93614e51@zen> Message-ID: <20050630160043.55044.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm sure he was. I live in Fort Worth, two hundred or so miles north of Austin and an entirely different culture. As Dallas has a different culture from FW. I'm only tangentially acquainted with Austin culture, but it does seem like a nice place for open-minded folks to live (if you can find a job there). Lots of Buddhist places, for one thing. Burnham is, of course, a local figure, something of a curmudgeon in the state legislature. Nice enough guy, I gather. I used to see his father at the local Sierra club. Austin is the one city in Texas where there's a good percentage of liberals, eccentrics, and the like. Not so elsewhere in this business/conservative dominated state. Michael --- Stephen Hodge wrote: > It has been suggested to me off-list that you [Andy] were speaking sarcastically, so please do not take my comments personally if you were doing so. But please be aware that it is not at obvious to those of us who cannot pick up on the contextual clues. I doubt anybody outside the US has any idea who Lon Burnam is, what he stands for, or even what is the significance of your "People's Republic of Austin". > > Best wishes. > Stephen Hodge __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From StormyTet at aol.com Thu Jun 30 09:53:56 2005 From: StormyTet at aol.com (StormyTet@aol.com) Date: Thu Jun 30 10:04:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) Message-ID: In a message dated 6/30/2005 3:17:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, stefan.detrez@gmail.com writes: When this participation is corrupted by mental illness leading to murder, murderous recidivism, mindless killing (not, for instance, the killing of a corrupt tiran), or no prospect of succesful reintegration, than I'd say the death penalty is a good option. It is, ironically, more human to kill that person than to dope him/her up and stick him/her away in a mental institution for the rest of that person's life. This is not about retribution, it's about making useful use of the money that would otherwise go to 'keeping life sentenced people alive (under strict conditions like: 'no prospect of succesful reintegration', Hi Stefan, There is a man named Bo Lozof who in the 70's started sending books to prisoners (many on death row) about buddhist practice. His first (i am pretty sure) and most simply written book (full of cartoons) is basic techniques on how to meditate. It is written for prisoners in light of their particular setting and culture. That book is "Were All Doing Time." The Dali Lama wrote a forward for it. The best part of the book, imo, is the letters in the back of the book between Bo and the prisoners. They are disturbing and strangely hopeful -- the reality of our human condition, criminal or not, shines through. Bo was a devotee of Neem Karoli Baba. I think the issue of the death penalty needs to be looked at in broader terms than you suggest. Bo suggests to prisoners that they use their 'time' and their cells as an ashram. Your argument is based on finances and reintegration into society (and perhaps mercy killing). The problem with this is that prisoners are a part of our society, largely ignored and largely unheard. I would suggest listening to them before you flip the switch. I am not advocating a bleeding heart liberal position here. There are cold hearted people who don't seem to ever 'get it',' but even when they talk I learn something about being human. Killing the pariahs in our society doesn't work for me. I don't want them loose to harm people but they are a reflection, in part, of the ills in our society and they are carrying, as one friend put it to me, the pain of our cancers in their individual souls in a way that society as a whole needs to recognize as a mirror of our collective self. Best, Stormy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/d39cb460/attachment-0001.html From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 30 10:20:12 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 30 10:24:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3EB74956761CFE498A8900F9F0577DEC012E870B@fsmail3.is.tcu.edu> <004801c57d09$8672b810$b17d4e51@zen> <1120103242.9304.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120148412.7029.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 10:11 +0200, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Ironically, Thailand, Sri Lanka and Japan, three traditionally > Buddhist countries still retain the death penalty. Don't forget Myanmar. > For me, I was for a long time parrotting the human rights rhetoric > that humans have a right to life. My opposition to the death penalty has never been connected with a discussion of rights. I find almost all talk of "human rights" unproductive, because no one has ever figured out how to adjudicate satisfactorily between competing rights. Perhaps reading Alasdair MacIntyre has helped me clarify my thinking on this sort of thing. My principal opposition to the death penalty is not on ethical grounds but on epistemological grounds. It is possible to make mistakes in finding people guilty. It is impossible to bring someone back to life if one finds one has mistakenly sentenced him to death. Given that taking someone's life is an irreversible action, I would have to have a very strong argument for doing so. It has been shown repeatedly that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime, so I don't buy the utilitarian argument in its favor. There are other ways of keeping violent people from doing harm than killing them, so I don't accept the argument based on public safety. I don't believe in vengeance in any form, so I am not inclined to think that executing a murderer is a comfort to the loved one's of her victims. So what grounds does that leave for killing someone? > You can ask yourself, 'should a serial murderer be kept alive, just > because he has 'the right to life'?' If the question is phrased that way, I would reply that nothing has a right to anything. My claim would be that we never need a reason to allow someone to live. Where we require a reason is to bring on a person's death. Just as I have never yet seen any good argument in favor of war, I have never yet seen any good argument in favor of taking a human life. > The problem with legalising/carrying out the death penalty is that > some governments will make abuse of it. But that alone is not a good > reason abolish it. The debate on the death penalty should not be: > 'Death penalty: yes/no', but 'Death penalty: in what case?', just like > any other ethical discussion. That's a good way of putting it. My answer to that question is that I have never yet seen a case in which the death penalty seemed the best course of action. But perhaps this will change. -- Richard Hayes *** "Above all things, take heed in judging one another, for in that ye may destroy one another... and eat out the good of one another."-- George Fox From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 30 10:43:44 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 30 10:43:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kalupahana In-Reply-To: <4526ba44050630013616ef0281@mail.gmail.com> References: <4526ba44050630013616ef0281@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120149824.7029.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 10:36 +0200, Stefan Detrez wrote: > > Does anyone have an opinion about David Kalupahana? That is, > would > you regard him as a reliable and insightful Buddhist scholar? > > I don' know him personally, but I read his 'Ethics in Early > Buddhism' (EEB), which, in my beginning years in the study of > Buddhism, was quite impressive. I agree with Stefan on this. Kalupahana's early work was quite good. I learned from his discussion of ethics and from his treatment of causality. At some point in his career, however, Kalupahana became so committed to the idea that early Buddhism was an early form of Logical Positivism that his presentations of Buddhist philosophers became almost ludicrous. His treatment of Nagarjuna, for example, is simply awful. His translations of the MMK are riddled with errors, and his interpretations are strained and artificial. > Now, however, I find his attempts to 'synchronize' Buddhist ethics > with Western ethics/pragmatism/utilitarianism a bit flawed and > compulsive. You can wonder what his agenda is to try and observe > similarities between them. I see Kalupahana's work part of a larger pattern of post-colonial intellectuals trying to overcome their shame at having been colonized. The strategy seems to be to identify what the colonists value most in their culture and then to show that that very thing is found in a much more refined form in the colonized culture. The British, for example, are supposed to value rationality, epistemological accountability and justice and to decry superstition. So intellectuals from South Asia are prone to arguing that Buddhism (or Hinduism or Jainism or Confucianism or Daoism) is much more deeply rational, anti-superstitious, and just- minded than anything ever found in the West. The Buddha thus comes to be portrayed as someone who succeeded to do what Descartes, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, Carnap, Russell, Derrida (or whoever your favorite European modern or post-modern philosopher may be) failed to do. Kalupahana fits this pattern very well. Not only is his version of the Buddha the best philosopher imaginable, but most Western thinkers (the very one he takes as standards of excellence) end up looking rather shallow and flat when compared to Kalupahana's fantasies of the Buddha. And so Kalupahana joins a rather long queue of Asian intellectuals whose agenda was to show the superiority of Asian thought. (There was a similar phenomenon in Africa in a movement called the Negritude Movement, the aim of which was to show that black people were much better at living up to the lofty aspirations of white people than white people ever were.) > Kalupahana is interesting to study how Western discourse is attempted > to fit Buddhist discourse in explanatory models. But that's food for > thought for literary critics, and less so, buddhologists. Yes, that is nicely said. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 30 10:50:31 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 30 10:53:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <4526ba4405063003452daf4836@mail.gmail.com> References: <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> <20050630085414.67547.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> <4526ba4405063003452daf4836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120150231.7029.47.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 12:45 +0200, Stefan Detrez wrote: > For that matter, the future will show in what 'prison' former Iraqi > president Hussein will end up. I think he should be sentenced to a lifetime of playing golf with George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. If there are no golf courses in Antarctica, I'm sure would could be built for the occasion. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 11:01:42 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Thu Jun 30 11:04:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <1120148412.7029.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050630170142.63030.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mistakes, yes. I remember well the case of Lennel (sp?) Jeter, an engineer at a E-Systems in Dallas, (a high-tech company owned at one time by Ross Perot Sr.) Mr. Jeter was arrested by the Dallas Police allegedly for a robbery at a lunch place he frequented. The witness provided vague details, primarily that the robber was a black male approximately Jeter's age and build. On that basis he was indicted by the grand jury and convicted in a jury trial. His lawyer filed appeals, but the wheels of justice move _very_ slowly in Texas. After some time the TV show 60 Minutes aired the case and shortly thereafter he was released and exonerated. So much for eyewitness testimony, not to mention reasonable doubt. Apparently the jury never considered why a highly-skilled and well-paid engineer would rob a fast-food place at lunch then go back to work? But never let logic stand in the way of getting a conviction. Michael --- "Richard P. Hayes" wrote: > My principal opposition to the death penalty is not on ethical grounds but on epistemological grounds. It is possible to make mistakes in finding people guilty. It is impossible to bring someone back to life if one finds one has mistakenly sentenced him to death. > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From Bshmr at aol.com Thu Jun 30 11:53:46 2005 From: Bshmr at aol.com (Bshmr@aol.com) Date: Thu Jun 30 12:48:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) Message-ID: <82.2b189a4f.2ff58baa@aol.com> >Stefan Detrez : To kill a whole ... As I stated, if someone would have killed Hitler in his early years, or Stalin or Pol Pot, I think the killer would do the world a favor and would, in consequence, create favorable conditions for social cohesion and development. Such ... if somebody would have shot Rumsfeld before he decided to... Who knows? > Oft forgotten is that any killing has consequences, to the killer and killed. The historical texts are very clear. In the questionable example of one killing a tyrant earlier (so to speak) before their crimes is to act on the chance that one's imagination is not delusion. Society doesn't support 'psychic revelation' as justifying violence -- only criminal acts themselves are crimes. Fortunately, I might add -- otherwise I would have been raped, robbed, assaulted, punished, ... hundreds or thousands of times. But, folks don't necessarily act out their fantasies or mine. Now back to your hypothetical, the 'psychic commando' most likely would have been apprehended and punished (rather severely) for executing a leader (potential Mess-I-Ah ...) or an innocent infant Hilter/Stalin/Pol Pot if prescient enough. In any event, the 'psychic commando' would reap consequences for their actions -- either a shortened one life or additional ups and downs, or births and deaths if you prefer. Note that the visions of the 'psychic commando', when not acted on, would be interpreted as 'past lives', 'parallel dimensions', or 'seductive futures' -- that is, one of the side-effects of meditation. rbb From eklektik at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 12:22:56 2005 From: eklektik at gmail.com (Hugo) Date: Thu Jun 30 12:48:10 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <4526ba4405063003452daf4836@mail.gmail.com> References: <4526ba4405063001117738e4b@mail.gmail.com> <20050630085414.67547.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> <4526ba4405063003452daf4836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7964f6db05063011227c890983@mail.gmail.com> Hello Stefan, I notice that a lot of your comments imply a sense of self and permanency, like: On 6/30/05, Stefan Detrez wrote: > That makes no sense. Justifying an operation doesn't make you a surgeon, by > analogy. Some governments have a good reputation. What is a government? It certainly is not a self, also it is not permanent. > It's a bit of a populist > assumption that politicians only want the bad. The Swiss governement, for > instance. What is "The Swiss government"?, it is not a self and it is not permanent. > If you read the Asokavadana (tr. John Strong), you'll notice > Asoka's punishments were mind-boggling: cooking someone in hot oil, for > instance (as in the Laws of Manu, pouring hot oil in Dasya's mouths). Such > punishments were, arguably, common. The Buddha was a pacifist influence > going counter to such punishments, but he never achieved the goal of having > no death penalties altogether. That was not the Buddha's goal, he said something along the lines: I teach suffering, its origin, cessation and path. That's all I teach. > I wonder what the vinaya says on the issue of > the death penalty - as far as we take its answer as a guiding line for our > discussion. Murderers (Angulimala) were eventually accepted in the sangha, > to avoid punishment or to lead the holy life or both. It is the very first precept for Lay people!! Angulimala killed people BEFORE ordaining. > Killing innocents musn't be a side effect. A thorough investigation should > lead to a verdict. I count on the integrity and honesty of the courts to > decide on the possible /implementation/ of the death penalty. Unless the court is made of arahants, every single one will be lead by greed, hatred and delusion. In the Anguttara Nikaya (VI, 44) (Page 159, 123. Don't Judge Others! for those with the Anthology by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera) there is a story about how a woman asks Ananda: "Please, venerable sir, how ought one to understand this teaching taught by the Blessed One: namely, that one who leads the pure, celibate life and one who does not should both have the very same status after death?, My father Purana, venerable sir, was (in his later years) a celibate, living remote from sensuality, abstaining from the low sexual life; and when my father died, the Blessed One declared that he had attained to the state of a once-returner and had been reborn among the Tusita devas." "But then, venerable sir, there was my father's brother Isidatta who was not a celibate but lived a contented married life. When he died the Blessed One said that he too was a once-returner and had been reborn among the Tusita devas." .....Ananda goes to The Buddha and relates the event to him, he replies: "Who indeed is this female lay disciple Migasala, this foolish, inexperienced woman wih a woman's wit? And who (in comparison) are those who have the knowledge of other persons' different qualities?" Greetings, -- Hugo From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 30 12:49:33 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 30 12:54:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <20050630170142.63030.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050630170142.63030.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1120157373.7392.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 10:01 -0700, Michael Paris wrote: > So much for eyewitness testimony, not to mention reasonable doubt. There have been two similar cases in Canada where people have served decades of a life sentence only to be exonerated by DNA testing. Both involved eye-witness testimony that later proved to have been quite suspect. But not until DNA testing came along were the people exonerated. Every now and then there is a brief movement to reinstate the death penalty in Canada, and these cases of people being convicted for what would be capital offenses and then found innocent play a big role of preventing the death penalty from returning. Fortunately, in Canada the criminal code is federal, so provinces cannot pass legislation allowing capital punishment (much to the dismay of Alberta, a province in which George W. Bush would probably be rejected as too left wing for most people's tastes). > Apparently the jury never considered why a highly-skilled and well-paid > engineer would rob a fast-food place at lunch then go back to work? But > never let logic stand in the way of getting a conviction. The impression I had from my years of reading Amnesty International reports, I thought a person had to be both black AND mentally retarded to warrant the death penalty in Texas and FLorida. Being a minor was also a plus, as I recall. (Warning to Stephen Hodge: that comment was tinged with a hint of irony.) As a subscriber to The Economist, I received a fascinating book of all kinds of international statistics for the year 2004. One of my favorite pastimes is to ask my class in reasoning and critical thinking where they think the USA ranks in these categories: 1) total number of people in prison, 2) percentage of the population who are victims of murder and other violent crimes, and 3) percentage of the population who are victims of theft. (Try it. The answers are at the end of this message.) Ever wonder where the USA ranks in carrying out the death penalty? Here is an excerpt from an Amnesty International page: \begin{quote} In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA. Based on public reports available, Amnesty International estimated that at least 3,400 people were executed in China during the year, although the true figures were believed to be much higher. In March 2004 a delegate at the National People's Congress said that "nearly 10,000" people are executed per year in China. Iran executed at least 159 people, and Viet Nam at least 64. There were 59 executions in the USA, down from 65 in 2003. \end{quote} The entire page can be found at http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng In terms of religion, of the four countries at the top of the list for using the death penalty, two are Buddhist, one is (according to Dr Ziobro) Christian, and one is Islamic. Incidentally of the 65 people executed in the USA in 2003, the Department of Justice reports that 24 were executed in Texas; 14 in Oklahoma; 7 in North Carolina; 3 each in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and Ohio; 2 each in Indiana, Missouri, and Virginia; and 1 each in Arkansas and the Federal system. Of the 65 executed people 41 were white, 20 were black, 3 were Hispanic (all white), and 1 was American Indian. All 65 were men. (From this I guess we can conclude that the death penalty is a subtle form of gendercide being carried out by women against men, eh?) And now here are the answers to quiz given above: 1) total number of people in prison: The USA ranks number one in the world in total prison population. Here are the top five countries: USA 2,021,223 (out of total population of 285.9 megapeople) China 1,428,126 (out of 1,285.0 M) Russia 919,330 (out of 144.t M) India 281,380 (out of 1,025.1 M) Brazil 233,859 (out of 172.6 M) 2) percentage of the population who are victims of murder and other violent crimes: the USA ranks 11th in the world. The top 10 are Australia, Sweden, Swaziland, South Africa, Belgium, Namibia, Ghana, New Zealand, Botswana and Jamaica. 3) percentage of the population who are victims of theft: the USA ranks 10th after Sweden, New Zealand, Australia, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, France and Germany. For what it's worth, not a single country in which Buddhism or Islam is a major religion ranks in the top 20 in serious assault or theft per capita. The only Buddhist country in the top 21 for total number of prisoners is Thailand, which ranks 6th in the world. There is one Buddhist country in the top 20 countries in the amount of dollars spent on alcoholic drinks per capita: Japan ranks 20th ($173 per person per year). By way of comparison, the USA ranks 9th at $283.10 pers person per year, and Ireland ranks first at $1,335.50 and the UK second at $901.80. (Most of the countries between the UK and the USA on this scale are Scandinavian countries. I guess when Swedes not are busy beating each other up and stealing from one another, they're busy getting drunk.) As I'm sure you all know, the first country to abolish the death penalty was Venezuela in 1863. It is hoped that the USA will follow suit by 2063 and that citizens of the USA will then deserve--along with citizens of Venezuela, Argentina, Mexico and Canada--to call themselves Americans. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From dylan20 at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 12:48:10 2005 From: dylan20 at gmail.com (d f tweney) Date: Thu Jun 30 13:09:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <42C3B43E.80201@mweb.co.za> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42C3B43E.80201@mweb.co.za> Message-ID: <3efe1993050630114814948c41@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Michel Clasquin wrote: > > > > BOB DYLAN TO RELEASE ALBUM THROUGH STARBUCKS > > Well, as ol' Bob himself said in a recent song, "I used to care, but > things have changed". Come, now -- Bob Dylan has always cared about selling albums, otherwise none of us would have heard of him. If you want to sell things, you need to put them where people are buying. And lots of people are buying music at Starbucks. How is this any different than selling music at the Wherehouse, or Barnes & Noble? At least you can get a good cup of coffee along with your CD. If someone found a way to get Starbucks to carry copies of the Dhammapada, it would mean that perhaps more people could read it. It wouldn't mean that the Buddha had sold out. -- dylan f. tweney dylan@tweney.com mag: http://www.mobilemagazine.com blog: http://dylan.tweney.com haiku: http://tinywords.com From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 30 13:40:17 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 30 13:44:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Death of Heinz Bechert] Message-ID: <1120160417.7392.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> This was posted on h-buddhism@h-net.msu.edu. -------- Forwarded Message -------- To: H-BUDDHISM@H-NET.MSU.EDU Subject: [H-BUDDHISM] NOTICE>Death of Heinz Bechert (Hartmann) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:06:56 -0700 From: "Jens-Uwe Hartmann" Subject: Death of Heinz Bechert Dear list-members, Let me inform you of the sad news that Heinz Bechert, retired Professor of Indology at the University of Goettingen (Germany), passed away on June 14. He was an internationally renowned scholar who had specialized in Theravada Buddhism with a focus on the so-called Buddhist Modernism. His magnum opus is Buddhismus, Staat und Gesellschaft in den Laendern des Theravada-Buddhismus (Buddhism, state and society in the countries of Theravada Buddhism), 3 vols., Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz 1966-1973 (reprint of vol. 1: Goettingen 1988; repr. of vol. 2 with supplements and register: Goettingen 2000). Jens-Uwe Hartmann Prof. Dr. Jens-Uwe Hartmann Department fuer Asienstudien Institut fuer Indologie und Iranistik Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1 80539 Muenchen Germany Tel. +49-89-2180-5384 Fax +49-89-2180-5827 From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Jun 30 13:35:50 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu Jun 30 13:44:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <82.2b189a4f.2ff58baa@aol.com> References: <82.2b189a4f.2ff58baa@aol.com> Message-ID: <42C44996.8090200@cola.iges.org> There is no need to create hypothetical situations. One need only study the case of Dietrich Bonhoeffer - a Christian pacifist who decided to kill Hitler AFTER it was clear that Hitler was an evil man doing evil things. The important thing about Bonhoeffer's story is that it shows that these kinds of questions are not just parlor games - and that when confronted with such situations there are few easy answers. Also, it did not require a great deal of psychism to presage what the Nazis were up to before they came to power. It would have been relatively easy for the German trade-unions and leftist groups to effectively deal with the Nazis in the late 20's or even the early 30's - but they did not wish to "be as bad as the Nazis", so they mostly restricted themselves to legal, peaceful methods of struggle. The Nazis themselves crowed about how easy it would have been to suppress them had anyone actually tried. This was a good example of mistaking squeamishness for ethics. If there had been a few more Che Guevara types in Germany at the time then there would have been no Holocaust (ironically, perhaps, it was the right-wing "socialists" who played the worst role by killing Rosa Luxemboug, Karl Liebknecht and the rest of the nascent leadership of a truly revolutionary German left during the Sparticist uprising.) - Curt Bshmr@aol.com wrote: >>Stefan Detrez : To kill a whole ... As I stated, if >> >> >someone would have killed Hitler in his early years, or Stalin or Pol Pot, I >think the killer would do the world a favor and would, in consequence, create >favorable conditions for social cohesion and development. Such ... if somebody >would have shot Rumsfeld before he decided to... Who knows? > > > >Oft forgotten is that any killing has consequences, to the killer and killed. >The historical texts are very clear. > >In the questionable example of one killing a tyrant earlier (so to speak) >before their crimes is to act on the chance that one's imagination is not >delusion. Society doesn't support 'psychic revelation' as justifying violence -- >only criminal acts themselves are crimes. Fortunately, I might add -- otherwise I >would have been raped, robbed, assaulted, punished, ... hundreds or thousands >of times. But, folks don't necessarily act out their fantasies or mine. > >Now back to your hypothetical, the 'psychic commando' most likely would have >been apprehended and punished (rather severely) for executing a leader >(potential Mess-I-Ah ...) or an innocent infant Hilter/Stalin/Pol Pot if prescient >enough. In any event, the 'psychic commando' would reap consequences for their >actions -- either a shortened one life or additional ups and downs, or births >and deaths if you prefer. > >Note that the visions of the 'psychic commando', when not acted on, would be >interpreted as 'past lives', 'parallel dimensions', or 'seductive futures' -- >that is, one of the side-effects of meditation. > >rbb >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From tccahill at loyno.edu Thu Jun 30 14:43:02 2005 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Thu Jun 30 14:44:10 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Texas liberals (death penalty) In-Reply-To: <1120157373.7392.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050630170142.63030.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1120157373.7392.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > The impression I had from my years of reading Amnesty International > reports, I thought a person had to be both black AND mentally retarded > to warrant the death penalty in Texas and FLorida. Being a minor was > also a plus, as I recall. Alas, here no irony is called for. Two of my colleagues have developed a computer neural network, and "trained" it to predict the fate of death-row inmates based upon data unrelated to facts of the criminal case. For the story see: http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/library-82/111985368095120.xml?nola (Or go to the site and search "Loyola scholars" for this week.) The system works with 90% accuracy. Attempts to duplicate it elsewhere are under way. > http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng Thanks for this! best, Tim Cahill From SJZiobro at cs.com Thu Jun 30 14:31:00 2005 From: SJZiobro at cs.com (SJZiobro@cs.com) Date: Thu Jun 30 16:45:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: S. Pinker Message-ID: <20e.3f1b85e.2ff5b084@cs.com> In a message dated 6/29/2005 11:37:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richard P. Hayes writes: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 11:14 -0400, Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote: > > > The dominant religious ethos in the 18th century was Christian, and it > > remains so today in the 21st century. > > There is no reason to believe either of these statements. The question > of what a religious ethos is and what "dominant" means makes your claim > meaningless. In other words, what you are obviously trying to do is to > claim the USA for Christianity. I cannot think of a more offensive move > to make. Richard, any statement can be subjected to methodological doubt with the claim that there is no reason to believe what the statement articulates. From this perspective I would agree with you. That said, I see no grounds for reasonably disagreeing with the historical record. We know what a religious ethos is, and we know what "dominant" means. To state otherwise strikes me as disingenuous. I'm not, by the way, trying to claim the USA for Christianity. I shall not, however, deny the sociological reality that Christianity is the dominant religion here in the States. If you take offense at this, I'll not argue that you should not since we are dealing with emotions, and emotions are neither true nor false. If somebody wants to claim the USA for Buddhism (or Islam, or Judaism, or Shinto) I see nothing offensive in that, but perhap that is just one of my quirks. We still have significant areas of freedom of speech left in the society. > > > So, our nation is still basically a Christian one. > > A nation dedicated to greedy consumerism, unwarranted invasions of other > countries and abandoning its own poor and disenfranchised is Christian? > My understanding of Christianity is admittedly limited, but I had > thought that it was a religion that took a radical departure from the > values of the Romans. This is a fine rhetorical move on your part. I happen to agree with you that unadulterated consumerism is antithetical to Christianity (and I suspect to Buddhism, right?), and I happen to agree with you that where our government has abandoned the poor (they are always a handy group to bring into an argument) and we intentionally willingly acquiesce in this abandonment, that is antithetical to Christianity. But I am not willing to claim that the failings of Christians changes the sociological fact that the greater majority of people who here in the USA practice a religion (however poorly), ally themselves with some form of Christianity. Speaking of the Romans, there is a judicious principle in Roman Law that gives expression to the fact that the misuse of some thing or custom or law does not nullify the good use of that same thing or custom or law, or that the matter in question is disproved by the misuse thereof. Accordingly, the fact that there are Christians who do not live up to the demands of the Gospel does not nullify that reality that they are Christians; they are simply benighted or unfaithful. > > > As for your blanket statement that what binds in the 18th > > century cannot possibly be binding in the first decade of the 21st > > century, that is a red herring, and its obvious falsity stinks:). > > That principle has been articulated by the Supreme Court on several > occasions, in the context of this very issue. So it is neither false nor > a red herring. Your original statement was simply a blanket statement to the effect that whatever bound anybody in any manner in the 18th century "cannot possibly be binding in the first decade of the 21st century." As stated, this is false. Nonetheless, if you accept the principle that nothing in the 18th century binds in the 21st, then you must agree that the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights do not bind the U.S. Government in this first decade of the 21st century. There is something counter-intuitive to this, don't you think? I would also think that the Supreme Court's justification of this principle simply further opens the door to the judiciary subverting the legislative branches of government. There is also something counter-intuitive to this, especially in light of the clearly articulated checks and balances mentioned in the Constitution. > > > But I am surprised that you would even pretend that you are taking my > > Hail Mary remarks seriously. > > I take it the Hail Mary comment was offered in jest, and I responded in > kind, as I'm sure you have figured out. No need to carry the joke any > further by pretending to have been joking when in fact you were being > serious. I was simply responding in jest to your original Hail Mary comment made in jest (which I rather enjoyed). > > > My only real desire is that all people be able to nurture what is > > condusive in their lives to authentic peace, well-being, and > > happiness. > > You evade questions much better than you answer them. (You have mastered > the art of imitating our esteemed president.) Let me ask again: From > what to what would you convert me or anyone else, even in jest? > I really do not think that I've evaded your questions. Perhaps you see evasion much better than you discern genuine answers. If and when I pray for anybody's conversion my prayer primarily is that they grow in the love of God and of neighbor. If you'd like, though, I can and will pray that you become an authentic Christian; but that is your choice, OK? I actually do respect a person in their freedom to choose what ever faith they judge in conscience they must adhere if they are to be aware, understanding, reasonable, and responsible as a human being. Regards, Stan Ziobro -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20050630/f248d6d8/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jun 30 17:01:44 2005 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Jun 30 17:04:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] UW Madison, Position Vacancy in Buddhist Thought Message-ID: <004401c57dc7$afaea770$2930cece@charlie> > FYI: > > Position Vacancy in Buddhist Thought > > The Department of Langauges and Cultures of Asia, > University of Wisconsin--Madison has received > permission to appoint a Visiting Assistant professor > for the academic year 2005-2006 in the area of > Buddhist Thought. > > The Department is looking to appoint someone with > competence in Indian and Tibetan Buddhist thought > and especially in scholastic and philosophical > textual materials. PhD required. > > Teaching responsibilities will be primarily at the > undergraduate level, including a general > introduction to Buddhism and an introduction to > Indian and Tibetan Buddhist Thought, with other > courses to be determined; teaching load is five > courses, two in one semester, three in the other. > > Applications, together with curriculum vitae and > e-mail addresses for three referees, should be sent > electronically to Ellen Rafferty at > <>. Review of applications will > begin July 15, 2006 From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jun 30 22:34:08 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Jun 30 22:44:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: S. Pinker In-Reply-To: <20e.3f1b85e.2ff5b084@cs.com> References: <20e.3f1b85e.2ff5b084@cs.com> Message-ID: <1120192448.5488.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:31 -0400, SJZiobro@cs.com wrote: > Richard, any statement can be subjected to methodological doubt with > the claim that there is no reason to believe what the statement > articulates. I see no reason to believe that. > That said, I see no grounds for reasonably disagreeing with the > historical record. We know what a religious ethos is, and we know > what "dominant" means. To state otherwise strikes me as disingenuous. Very well, I concede the point. The United States is a Protestant nation in which Roman Catholics are barely tolerated, and women and native Americans have no right to vote, and the economy is based on slave labor. Thus it was for most of our history, and thus it ever more should be, because that is the kind of nation the Founding Fathers wished to have. > I shall not, however, deny the sociological reality that Christianity > is the dominant religion here in the States. If you take offense at > this, I'll not argue that you should not since we are dealing with > emotions, and emotions are neither true nor false. That statement makes no sense at all to me. I can't even imagine what you were trying to say. But never mind. If we are going to speak sociologically, then the dominant world view in the USA is secular humanism. Far more Americans are secular than Christian, and that is just plain fact. Dispute it all you wish, but wishing will not make this a Christian nation. > If somebody wants to claim the USA for Buddhism (or Islam, or Judaism, > or Shinto) I see nothing offensive in that, but perhap that is just > one of my quirks. These claims would all be false. There is nothing offensive in being wrong. What is offensive is insisting that one is right when all the evidence shows that one's position is problematic. (We have a president who does that. It would be pathetic if his citizens followed him in this unfortunate proclivity.) > We still have significant areas of freedom of speech left in the > society. True, but completely irrelevant to this discussion. > This is a fine rhetorical move on your part. I happen to agree with > you that unadulterated consumerism is antithetical to Christianity > (and I suspect to Buddhism, right?), and I happen to agree with you > that where our government has abandoned the poor (they are always a > handy group to bring into an argument) and we intentionally willingly > acquiesce in this abandonment, that is antithetical to Christianity. So we agree that the majority of those who think of themselves as Christians are deluded in this belief and that it would be offensive if they were to continue making that claim for themselves when their actions bely their professions. > But I am not willing to claim that the failings of Christians changes > the sociological fact that the greater majority of people who here in > the USA practice a religion (however poorly), ally themselves with > some form of Christianity. The key phrase there is "who practice a religion." The majority of citizens of the USA do not practice any religion at all, unless consumerism, unjust war and blind patriotism count as religious practices. In fact, I have argued on numerous occasions that these things DO, sociologically speaking, amount to the equivalents of religious practices. I think USAmericans are very good at practicing a very bad religion, a religion that is not, by any stretch of the imagination, Christianity, Judaism, Islam or Buddhism. > Accordingly, the fact that there are Christians who do not live up to > the demands of the Gospel does not nullify that reality that they are > Christians; they are simply benighted or unfaithful. If one is bad at being a Christian, then one is not in fact a Christian at all. That principle was invoked repeatedly by the Puritans who founded this nation. And since by your own advice we should not deviate from their convictions, you are bound to agree with them. > Your original statement was simply a blanket statement to the effect > that whatever bound anybody in any manner in the 18th century "cannot > possibly be binding in the first decade of the 21st century." As > stated, this is false. Of course it is. So apply some charity of interpretation if you are interested in anything but winning an argument at all costs. Use your imagination. Try to figure out what I might have been saying with those words. > I would also think that the Supreme Court's justification of this > principle simply further opens the door to the judiciary subverting > the legislative branches of government. I have never seen this happening during my lifetime. What I have seen is the Executive branch subverting the legislative branch and trying to manipulate the judiciary. But never has the judiciary subverted the other two branches, at least not since I have been alive. > There is also something counter-intuitive to this, especially in light > of the clearly articulated checks and balances mentioned in the > Constitution. Agreed. The constitution says that only Congress can declare war. And yet we have an executive branch saying almost daily that we are at war. In fact, we are not. This is an example of the executive branch betraying the constitution. > I was simply responding in jest to your original Hail Mary comment > made in jest (which I rather enjoyed). My jokes are meant to hurt people's feelings. I resent it when anyone enjoys them. It is a bitter reminder that I have failed in my mission. -- Richard Hayes http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jamesward at earthlink.net Thu Jun 30 23:30:18 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Fri Jul 1 08:44:30 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Obituary: The Age of Aquarius In-Reply-To: <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> References: <1120058350.5423.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <5FLowBbUCuwCFwVK@clara.net> Message-ID: <35C571AE-E9F1-11D9-A5BC-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> On Jun 29, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Mike Austin wrote: >> And then I'm going to light >> two sticks of incense on my Buddhist altar, one in front of Amitabha >> and >> the other in front of the picture of Che Guevara. > > ... maybe better to offer one to Che Nrezig. > Ha ha ha! :) James Ward