From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 1 01:25:27 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 1 01:25:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: <200611301054.42457.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: Richard wrote: >I'm currently trying to write an article on "Saantideva from the perspective >of virtue ethics. I find Williams's observations in the above-mentioned book >interesting, and I also find Siderits's analysis of some of Williams's ideas >interesting. My impression from Personal Identity is that he tends to agree >with Williams that "Saantideva's version of reductionism of the person could >very well undermine the practice of compassion. But by the time it's all >over, Siderits seems to defend "Saantideva against Williams, and he clearly >regards "Saantideva as a reductionist, not as an advocate pf non-reductionist >supervenience theory (the category in which he places the pudgalavaadins). I >find the discussion between Siderits and Williams thought-provoking, so I >look forward to reading Siderits's review in PEW, which I have not read yet. Has this discussion anything to do with the following passage? YID NI DBANG RNAMS LA MI GNAS GZUGS SOGS LA MIN BAR NA'ANG MIN ?NANG YANG SEMS MIN PHYI MIN ZHING GZHANDU YANG NI RNYED MA YIN GANG ZHIG LUS MIN GZHAN DU MIN 'DRES MIN LOGS SU'ANG 'GAR MED PA DE NI CUNG ZAD MIN DE'I PHYIR SEMS CAN RANG BZHIN MYA NGAN 'DAS? 102. The mind is not located in the sense facilities, or in form and other sense-objects, or in between them. The mind is also not found inside, or outside, or anywhere else. 103. That which is not in the body nor anywhere else, neither intermingled nor somewhere separate, is nothing. Therefore, sentient beings are by nature liberated. http://www.shantideva.net Mind is neither within nor without Nor is it found anywhere else It is neither mixed with other things, nor apart from them. Beings are by nature in Nirvana. Guenther (I don?t agree with the ?that which is nothing? in the above translation) I am not sure Shantideva is advocating anything at all. I see him trying very hard to describe all sorts of corrective exercices to certain views that may cause unnecessary pain to ourselves and others. From the point of view of a man?s experience, what is the difference between pudgalavada and the ?vada? of opposite view? What is exactly negated and what would be the effect of that negation? They both are only ?vada?. One can reduce all one wants or inflate all one wants, one?s hardwired basic experience of being there, will remain unchanged. And not only of being there, but even of the basic elements of human condition. These are things that can?t be reduced away through ?vada? and a wise person like Shantideva knows that, as would anyone not having a too literal reading of Shantideva?s descriptions. Shantideva also knows when describing the woman?s body as a bag of excrement that he is giving a corrective to (excessive) lust which will help to get a right balance. He is n! ot advocating that a woman's body is a bag of excrement. Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 1 08:45:50 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 1 08:46:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: <200611301054.42457.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> Joy, > GANG ZHIG LUS MIN GZHAN DU MIN > 'DRES MIN LOGS SU'ANG 'GAR MED PA > DE NI CUNG ZAD MIN DE'I PHYIR > SEMS CAN RANG BZHIN MYA NGAN 'DAS" . > 103. That which is not in the body nor anywhere else, neither intermingled nor somewhere separate, is nothing. Therefore, sentient beings are by nature liberated. > http://www.shantideva.net > > Mind is neither within nor without > Nor is it found anywhere else > It is neither mixed with other things, nor apart from them. > Beings are by nature in Nirvana. > Guenther > > (I don't agree with the "that which. is nothing" in the above translation) GANG ZHIG LUS MIN GZHAN DU MIN Whatever is not body nor otherwise/elsewhere, (GANG ZHIG = yad, whoever, whatever; LUS=kaaya, body; MIN=na, not GZHAN DU=otherwise, elsewhere; MIN=not) 'DRES MIN LOGS SU'ANG 'GAR MED PA neither mixed, nor separate, is nonexistent. ('DRES=intermixed MIN=not LOGS SU=elsewhere,apart, separate 'ANG=aapi, also, too, still 'GAR=some, sometimes MED PA=naasti, nonexistent) DE NI CUNG ZAD MIN DE'I PHYIR That being untenable, therefore (DE NI=that one, those are; CUNG ZAD MIN=are incorrect DE'I PHYIR=therefore) SEMS CAN RANG BZHIN MYA NGAN 'DAS sentient beings are naturally nirvanic (SEMS CAN=sattva, sentient beings; RANG BZHIN MYA NGAN 'DAS=prak.rti niv.rta, nirvanic by nature) One of our resident Tibetologists can perhaps offer a better reading. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 1 09:10:12 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:10:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #2 References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan> <010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <012101c71563$320432b0$67369c04@Dan> Stephen et al. Thanks for that translation. Stylistically much smoother than my effort. > I > have left avaktavya untranslated because its usage needs more thought -- on > my part, if nobody else's -- though I do not think that it means the > "ineffable". I strongly agree. To move that thinking along, it's pairing with prajnapti -- which implies a linguistic construction -- is interesting. Something non-articulated alongside something with only linguistic reality, but otherwise unreal. With hindsight from later developments in Indian Buddhism, we can see how this morphed into sa.mv.rti (with the all the problems later Buddhists had nailing that down, and subdividing it) and the distinction (primarily in abhidharma and Yogacara texts) between prajnapti and samvrti-dravya. Also the extremist positions of those who embraced the efficacy of language (upaya, buddhavacana, etc.) and those who rejected language as intrinsically problematic. Here we have a moment at the core of that. The pudgala is, on the one hand, merely a linguistic construction. On the other hand, it involves something in everyone's experience about which we can say nothing definitively coherent. It is unreal (merely nominal), but experientially, and even soterically effective. The term "fiction" comes to mind. As the passage makes clear, it is attempting to forge a middle way, between extremes of eternalism and annihilationalism, existence and nonexistence, and yet affirming that, nevertheless, these ways of talking about things are requisites for the Buddhist paths. Dan Lusthaus From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 1 09:12:54 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:12:51 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: <200611301054.42457.rhayes@unm.edu> <00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <000501c71563$8f341810$2930cece@charlie> Would someone please tell me how this scholar's name is pronounced: John Brough. Is it Bro, Bruff, or Broug? Thanks Joanna From richard.nance at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:14:52 2006 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:15:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) In-Reply-To: <00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> References: <200611301054.42457.rhayes@unm.edu> <00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Hi Dan and Joy -- A resident Tibetologist might help with the sense of the Tibetan, but it might also be useful to check the relevant Sanskrit. Not to imply that the extant Sanskrit will recapitulate precisely what the Tibetan translators had in front of them, and not to imply that Tibetan translations aren't worth consulting as well, but ??ntideva didn't compose his texts in Tibetan, after all. The Sanskrit of the verse under discussion, in the edition I have ready to hand, reads as follows: yan na k?ye na c?nyatra na mi?ra? na p?thak kvacit / tan na ki?cid ata? sattv?? prak?ty? parinirv?tt?? // A rough translation of the above might be: "That which is neither in the body nor elsewhere, neither mixed nor separate with respect to some [locus], Is nothing. Hence, sentient beings are fundamentally (or naturally: prak?ty?) nirv??ic." With apologies for the Buddhist Hybrid English of "nirv??ic." If you'd prefer "liberated," feel free to opt for that. It seems to me that the translation quoted originally ("That which is not in the body nor anywhere else, neither intermingled nor somewhere separate, is nothing. Therefore, sentient beings are by nature liberated") captures the sense of the Sanskrit quite well. Best wishes, R. Nance From dharmafarer at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:18:49 2006 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:19:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) In-Reply-To: <000501c71563$8f341810$2930cece@charlie> References: <200611301054.42457.rhayes@unm.edu> <00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> <000501c71563$8f341810$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Or, possibly Brow? Piya On 12/2/06, jkirk wrote: > > Would someone please tell me how this scholar's name is pronounced: > John Brough. > Is it Bro, Bruff, or Broug? > Thanks Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061202/27a00797/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 1 09:20:32 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:20:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Question 2--re: Bodhicharyavatara Message-ID: <000901c71564$9fede770$2930cece@charlie> Thanks to Dan posting the Shantideva link, I came across this? Who are meant here "by the Jinas themselves..." not the Jaini jinas? or was that term in general application for saintly people? Joanna 22. If sentient beings of different dispositions have not been satisfied by the Jinas themselves, then how could they be like an ignorant person like myself? So, what is the point of attending to the world? From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 1 09:30:09 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:29:07 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: <200611301054.42457.rhayes@unm.edu><00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> <000501c71563$8f341810$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <018101c71565$f7cf8100$fa067257@zen> Joanna asked: > Would someone please tell me how this scholar's name is pronounced: > John Brough. > Is it Bro, Bruff, or Broug? It rhymes with "rough" -- your "Bruff" Stephen Hodge From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 1 09:36:41 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:37:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: Message-ID: Hi Richard, Thanks for the sanskrit and your translation >A resident Tibetologist might help with the sense of the Tibetan, but >it might also be useful to check the relevant Sanskrit. Not to imply >that the extant Sanskrit will recapitulate precisely what the Tibetan >translators had in front of them, and not to imply that Tibetan >translations aren't worth consulting as well, but ????ntideva didn't >compose his texts in Tibetan, after all. >The Sanskrit of the verse under discussion, in the edition I have >ready to hand, reads as follows: >yan na k??ye na c??nyatra na mi??ra?? na p??thak kvacit / >tan na ki??cid ata?? sattv???? prak??ty?? parinirv??tt???? // > >A rough translation of the above might be: >"That which is neither in the body nor elsewhere, neither mixed nor >separate with respect to some [locus], >Is nothing. Hence, sentient beings are fundamentally (or naturally: >prak??ty??) nirv????ic." I still have a problem with "That which ... is nothing". The Tibetan "gar" means "where" and can be short for "gar yang" "anywhere". With a negation this becomes nowhere, exists nowhere, your locus. For me this is very different from "nothing". Especially since it would make the sentence a sort of contradiction in terms. "There is this something, but in reality it is nothing" Does the sanskrit actually imply a hard "nothing"? I agree with Victor Hugo on this point : Il n'y a pas de n?ant. Z?ro n'existe pas. Tout est quelque chose.Rien n'est rien. Joy From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 1 09:40:18 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:40:12 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wow-- Shantideva on globalized economies and wars Message-ID: <001601c71567$6353a770$2930cece@charlie> 74. Others are afflicted by traveling abroad and suffer as they are far from home; and though they long for their wives and children, they do not see them for years on end. 75. Deluded by sensual desires, they sell themselves for that which they never acquire. Instead, their life is uselessly spent in labor for others. 77. In order to make a livelihood they enter war that endangers their lives, and they become servants for the sake of their self-respect. They are fools ridiculed for their sensual desires. From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 1 09:48:30 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:47:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #2 References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen> <012101c71563$320432b0$67369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <019101c71568$88017f10$fa067257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Thanks for that translation. Stylistically much smoother than my effort. Thank you for the compliment ! When shall I send another consignment of books :) > To move that thinking along, it's pairing with prajnapti -- which implies > a > linguistic construction -- is interesting. Something non-articulated > alongside something with only linguistic reality, but otherwise unreal. With all this "ineffable" stuff, I had expected "anabhilaapya" so I was surprised to see that the underlying and well-attested form is "avaktavya" -- and sometimes "avaacya", which is more understandable. Taking a hint from the Tibetan, I find it useful at times to translate "praj~napti" informally as "a label". To me the position stated throughout these passages seems to be that we use labels to conventionally designate a pudgala or personal identity which is something we shouldn't really talk about anyway. If this is what the Sammitiyas were actually saying, then the views conventionally attributed to them are a total distortion of their actual position. > The pudgala is, on the one hand, merely a linguistic construction. Yes, a convenient label for a bundle of processes or entities. > On the other hand, it involves something in everyone's experience about > which we > can say nothing definitively coherent. It is unreal (merely nominal), but > experientially, and even soterically effective. Yes, that is exactly what I understand these passages to be saying. >The term "fiction" comes to > mind. As the passage makes clear, it is attempting to forge a middle way, > between extremes of eternalism and annihilationalism, existence and > nonexistence, and yet affirming that, nevertheless, these ways of talking > about things are requisites for the Buddhist paths. Challenges that faced all the major Buddhist schools of thought. So how come the pudgalavaadins became the quasi-Buddhist bogeymen ?! I am now mulling over T1505 -- very difficult. The punctuation is often wrong and the text is so elliptical ! Still I think I can suggest some improvements for you, though I doubt anybody can come up with a "definitive" translation. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 1 09:51:05 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:50:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #2 References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen> Dear Lance, I wonder whether the name shouldn't rather be Ku"saraajaa, going by the Pali: Ja V 312: kusar?j? pana aham eva ahosin He is referred to thus throughout the Kusajaataka. But I don't have the Mahaavastu to hand. ----- In T1505, this would be quite reasonable due to the way the name is transcribed / translated, but in T1506 it definitely has to be something like "Ku'sendra / Ku'senda".. It could just be a variant of the name from some other canonical source. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 1 09:53:22 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 1 09:53:39 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: <00f901c7155f$cb71ae90$67369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan wrote and translated (thanks) >GANG ZHIG LUS MIN GZHAN DU MIN >Whatever is not body nor otherwise/elsewhere, >(GANG ZHIG = yad, whoever, whatever; LUS=kaaya, body; MIN=na, not GZHAN >DU=otherwise, elsewhere; MIN=not) >'DRES MIN LOGS SU'ANG 'GAR MED PA >neither mixed, nor separate, is nonexistent. >('DRES=intermixed MIN=not LOGS SU=elsewhere,apart, separate 'ANG=aapi, also, >too, still 'GAR=some, sometimes MED PA=naasti, nonexistent) > >DE NI CUNG ZAD MIN DE'I PHYIR >That being untenable, therefore >(DE NI=that one, those are; CUNG ZAD MIN=are incorrect DE'I PHYIR=therefore) Oops, I forgot about this sentence in my answer to Richard, and it doesn't leave much leeway. "cung zad" can also mean "the slightest", so "doesn't have the slightest existence". For me there is a slight difference between the non-existence of "med pa" and "min pa". Med pa having a connotation of not being present, whereas min pa is more of a not ontologically existing. >One of our resident Tibetologists can perhaps offer a better reading. I hope Stephen will pick up a twice made hint. Joy From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 1 10:01:08 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:00:13 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: Message-ID: <01b301c7156a$4c263ec0$fa067257@zen> Joy Vriens wrote : I still have a problem with "That which ... is nothing". The Tibetan "gar" means "where" and can be short for "gar yang" "anywhere". With a negation this becomes nowhere, exists nowhere, your locus. For me this is very different from "nothing". ---- The "nothing" correctly corresponds to the Tibetan "cung-zad min" (na ki~ncit), not "gar [med-pa]" (kvacit). I see no problem with the translations from Sanskrit or Tibetan that have bee offered -- though the Guenter version misses out a line from the Tibetan and so has limited value. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 1 10:22:00 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:22:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: <01b301c7156a$4c263ec0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: >Joy Vriens wrote : >I still have a problem with "That which ... is nothing". The Tibetan "gar" >means "where" and can be short for "gar yang" "anywhere". With a negation >this becomes nowhere, exists nowhere, your locus. For me this is very >different from "nothing". Stephen >The "nothing" correctly corresponds to the Tibetan "cung-zad min" (na >ki~ncit), not "gar [med-pa]" (kvacit). I see no problem with the >translations from Sanskrit or Tibetan that have bee offered -- though the >Guenter version misses out a line from the Tibetan and so has limited value. Doesn't the sanskrit translate "not something"? There is a difference for me between "not something" and "nothing". It may be a detail, but it is an important detail IMO in order to capture the subtility. Perhaps a - not exactly analogous I am afraid - exemple will illustrate my problem: Love, not being in the body nor anywhere else, neither intermingled nor somewhere separate, is nothing. Joy From richard.nance at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 10:50:43 2006 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:50:55 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) In-Reply-To: References: <01b301c7156a$4c263ec0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: On 12/1/06, Joy Vriens wrote: > Doesn't the sanskrit translate "not something"? There is a difference for me between "not >something" and "nothing". It may be a detail, but it is an important detail IMO in order to >capture the subtility. The Sanskrit "ki?cit" is an indefinite construction; it can be used to mean "something." When used with a negation, it's translatable as "not anything" -- which is logically equivalent to "nothing." But, of course, interpreting a text may well require more than assessing the logical contours of its claims. Regarding this particular verse, the Indian commentator Praj?aakaramati notes that what 'Saantideva is driving at is, roughly, that mind/mental phenomena are, in an ultimate sense (paramaarthata.h), not substantially existent (na vastusat), due to being essenceless (ni.hsvabhaava). This, in general terms, is what the notion of emptiness is usually taken to involve or imply. To be "empty" is to be empty of essential or substantial existence, where essential/substantial existence is taken to be opposed to the notion that things arise in dependence on causes and conditions. So: the verse's "ki?cit" should be read as referring to any *substantially existent* thing. Does this help? Best wishes, R. Nance From f-lehman at uiuc.edu Fri Dec 1 11:09:58 2006 From: f-lehman at uiuc.edu (F.K. Lehman (F.K.L. Chit Hlaing)) Date: Fri Dec 1 11:10:19 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) In-Reply-To: <01b301c7156a$4c263ec0$fa067257@zen> References: <01b301c7156a$4c263ec0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: >Joy Vriens wrote : >I still have a problem with "That which ... is nothing". The Tibetan >"gar" means "where" and can be short for "gar yang" "anywhere". With >a negation this becomes nowhere, exists nowhere, your locus. For me >this is very different from "nothing". >---- >The "nothing" correctly corresponds to the Tibetan "cung-zad min" >(na ki~ncit), not "gar [med-pa]" (kvacit). I see no problem with >the translations from Sanskrit or Tibetan that have bee offered -- >though the Guenter version misses out a line from the Tibetan and so >has limited value. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > >_______________________________________________ Besides, which, of course, it seems an inescapable conceptual and logical fact that for anything to exist' it muse exist 'somewhere' It is not an accident that for ever so many languages (for all languages, maybe?) existential expressions are always locative existentials. -- F. K. L. Chit Hlaing Professor Department of Anthropology University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign From elihusmith at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 12:27:23 2006 From: elihusmith at yahoo.com (Elihu Smith) Date: Fri Dec 1 12:27:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: buddha-l Digest, ("That which ... is nothing") In-Reply-To: <200612011900.kB1J0KFC005925@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <646175.19748.qm@web81910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > >Joy Vriens wrote : > >I still have a problem with "That which ... is > nothing". The Tibetan > >"gar" means "where" and can be short for "gar yang" > "anywhere". With > >a negation this becomes nowhere, exists nowhere, > your locus. For me > >this is very different from "nothing". > >---- > >The "nothing" correctly corresponds to the Tibetan > "cung-zad min" > >(na ki~ncit), not "gar [med-pa]" (kvacit). I see > no problem with > >the translations from Sanskrit or Tibetan that have > bee offered -- > >though the Guenter version misses out a line from > the Tibetan and so > >has limited value. > > > >Best wishes, > >Stephen Hodge > > > >_______________________________________________ > Besides, which, of course, it seems an inescapable > conceptual and > logical fact that for anything to exist' it muse > exist 'somewhere' It > is not an accident that for ever so many languages > (for all > languages, maybe?) existential expressions are > always locative > existentials. > -- > F. K. L. Chit Hlaing > In this context it might also be valuable to clarify/acknowledge the 'dimension' of time, , as Eihei Dogen does in Being-Time ("Uji" in Shobogenzo). Elihu From selwyn at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 1 12:35:00 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Fri Dec 1 12:55:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #2 In-Reply-To: <019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen> <019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: Stephen, I wrote: >I wonder whether the name shouldn't rather be Ku"saraajaa, going by the Pali: >Ja V 312: kusar?j? pana aham eva ahosin >He is referred to thus throughout the Kusajaataka. But I don't have >the Mahaavastu to hand. You responded: >----- >In T1505, this would be quite reasonable due to the way the name is >transcribed / translated, but in T1506 it definitely has to be >something like "Ku'sendra / Ku'senda".. It could just be a variant >of the name from some other canonical source. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge The question that is still not clear to me is whether we are dealing with two translations of the same text, as Chau seems to suggest. Or, two different texts from different Pudgalavaadin schools and quite possibly in different languages. If the last, then one might suspect that T1505 was in some form of Prakrit where Ku"saraajaa or similar is possible and T1506 in Sanskrit with the (possibly later) form Ku"sendra. Or, do you have any definite evidence to rule out this hypothesis ? Lance Cousins From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 1 13:49:52 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 1 13:48:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #2 References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> L.S. Cousins wrote: The question that is still not clear to me is whether we are dealing with two translations of the same text, as Chau seems to suggest. Or, two different texts from different Pudgalavaadin schools and quite possibly in different languages. ---- No, I can't see how one could say that they are two translations of the same text in a conventional sense. If one looks at the translations in Chau, that should be fairly obvious. But there is some relationship between them -- T1505 seems to have drawn elements from T1506 or a common ancestor, re-arranged them and provided its own comments. But the structure of the two texts is very different. So I would say that they are two different but related texts. They do not necessarily have to have belonged to different Pudgalavaadin schools, but the possibility that Prakrit was involved is appealing. > If the last, then one might suspect that T1505 was in some form > of Prakrit where Ku"saraajaa or similar is possible and T1506 in > Sanskrit with the (possibly later) form Ku"sendra. Possibly, but T1506 seems to be the older text, since T1505, as mentioned above, seems to use material from it. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 1 14:44:30 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:43:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #3a References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><00eb01c71311$822c1f90$0b369c04@Dan><005301c7141e$fb037270$fa067257@zen> <015001c7148f$41cc85f0$9d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <021f01c71591$e1e10450$fa067257@zen> Dear Dan et al, Here is my stab at the first part of T1505, with notes explaining some of my decisions. The text is quite challenging so it is inevitable that different translators will come up with different renderings. But perhaps somewhere along the line, somebody will hit on the right interpretation :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge T 1505 DL: Why is it not said? A: The not-said: [This refers to what is] not said in the heuristics for appropriation, metaphorical device, and cessation. (sutra) SH: What is the avaktavya-[pudgala] ? It is the avaktavya-[pudgala] with reference to the praj?aptis concerning appropriation, upaaya (?) and cessation. NOTES: * Delete the reduplicated "bu shuo". * Despite Dan's valiant effort, I think that "upaaya" here is unsatisfactory. I have no idea what "fangbian" is meant to translate, but is should be something connected with the perceived continuity of an individual from the past into the future. The short version has "praj?apti concerning the past" and elsewhere in this Sammitiya material we find some versions that seems to correspond to "sa.mkraanti-praj?apti". Another, non-Buddhist, meaning in Chinese is "occasion" or "opportunity", which might perhaps fit. One could also feasibly extract the idea of "past and future" from the two characters, which would also fit the (presumed) intended meaning. Or else, I wonder, if the original of this text was in some Prakrit, whether the intended term was misread. * The use here of "jiao-shou" for praj?apti is probably based on a non-technical understanding of the verb from shich it is derived. I personally would not read anything significant into this -- "heuristic" is interesting, but it seems a bit OTT to me. DL: Those are the heuristics for appropriation, heuristics by metaphorical device, and the heuristics for cessation. This means that whoever is stupid concerning these 'not saids' lacks insight. SH: These are the praj?aptis of appropriation,the praj?aptis concerning upaaya and the praj?aptis concerning cessation. It is said that confusion about these is ignorance (aj?ana) concerning the avaktavya-[pudgala]. DL: The heuristics for appropriation [involves] using the name "a living-one". [The idea] that the presently appropriated skandhas, dhatus, and ayatanas are appropriated by an inner living-one is a heuristic. This means that [when one talks about the] present appropriation of an inner living-one appropriating dharmas due to sa.mskaras and the fetters (sa.myojana), these are heuristics for appropriation. The dharmas that the living-one heuristically appropriates are not the same as the living-one. It's not as if one seeks to get the jiva and the body to combine [into a single thing]. If they are the same, then [the jiva would be] impermanent and [prone to] suffering; if they are different, then [the jiva] would be permanent [and yet] deemed as [prone to] suffering [which is absurd, since "what is impermanent is suffering"]. SH: The praj?apti concerning appropriation applies the name "jiiva" to the skandhas, dhaatus, and aayatanas. It is a jiiva with respect to present appropriation that is the praj?apti of appropriation. That is to say, it is the jiiva and dharmas that are appropriated with respect to present appropriation due to the sa.mskaaras and sa.myojanas. The praj?apti of appropriation [refers to] neither past or future dharmas and jiiva. The jiiva is not the same [as the appropriated skandhas, dhaatus, and aayatanas]. The jiiva and the body are not combined in the slightest. If it were the same, it would be impermanent and [prone to] suffering, but if it were different, it would be permanent and yet [prone to] suffering. NOTES: * I have re-arranged the punctuation here, as reflected by my translation. * I insert an extra "shou" before "ming" in accordance with the note in T. * I read "nei" as a non-standard way of translating a locative, rather than its full value as "internal / within". * I suggest that characters "shou" and "shi" should be reversed. Thwe compound "ruogan" does not mean "if", but "somewhat, partially". As "yi ruogan", which occurs a couple of times later, I assume it is likely to stand for "ekaanta". DL: If it is permanent, one wouldn't [need to] practice brahmacarya [a religious life]. If it is not permanent, one would be unsuited for the brahmacarya fruit. For that which is impermanent, receiving and giving would be ineffective. Ineffectiveness is tantamount to nihilism; in these two metaphorical devices [of permanence and annihilation] there is no dharma [conducive to either] suffering or the favorable. The heuristic metaphorical device is naming. SH: If it were permanent, there would be no cultivation of brahmacarya, while if it were impermanent, one could not expect the fruition of brahmacarya. Giving and receiving would be meaningless. That which lacks constancy is meaningless, for that would utterly eradicate painful, pleasant and neutral qualities in the past and the future. NOTES: * "xu" is tricky. It might work as "expect", a common enough meaning of the word. * I have not attempted Dao-an's comment -- it is quite unclear to me. I have taken "fangbianzhong" as an awkward expression for "past and future". * I think the phrase "fangbian jiaoshou ming" should be construed as the opening phrase for the definition of that praj~napti, so I have moved it there. From brody at math.umd.edu Fri Dec 1 12:35:14 2006 From: brody at math.umd.edu (Justin Brody) Date: Fri Dec 1 15:38:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) In-Reply-To: <200612011900.kB1J0KFA005925@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200612011900.kB1J0KFA005925@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: >> Joy Vriens wrote : >> I still have a problem with "That which ... is nothing". The Tibetan >> "gar" means "where" and can be short for "gar yang" "anywhere". With >> a negation this becomes nowhere, exists nowhere, your locus. For me >> this is very different from "nothing". >> ---- >> The "nothing" correctly corresponds to the Tibetan "cung-zad min" >> (na ki~ncit), not "gar [med-pa]" (kvacit). I see no problem with >> the translations from Sanskrit or Tibetan that have bee offered -- >> though the Guenter version misses out a line from the Tibetan and so >> has limited value. >> >> Best wishes, >> Stephen Hodge >> >> _______________________________________________ > Besides, which, of course, it seems an inescapable conceptual and > logical fact that for anything to exist' it muse exist 'somewhere' It > is not an accident that for ever so many languages (for all > languages, maybe?) existential expressions are always locative > existentials. > -- > F. K. L. Chit Hlaing > Professor > Department of Anthropology > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Where does the number 5 exist? Assuming that it does! From selwyn at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 1 17:35:30 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Fri Dec 1 17:35:49 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personalists. Was: Are we sick of dogma yet? Message-ID: Dan, responding to the middle part of your message: >Xuanzang seems to have >been somewhat dismayed at the virtual absence of Mahayana throughout Central >Asia, not encountering any Mahayanist monasteries until within the Indian >orbit. This was because he went by the northern route. He met Mahaayaanists in Centreal Asia on his return journey. > If there was any exaggeration in his demographic figures, it would >have been an inflation of Mahayana prominence, and I suspect some of that >may very well have been the case. That is possible. >Hence attempting to counteract the >Sammitiya figures by adding Mahayana to the mix is problematic. Hardly. You have to take the actual figures given as your starting point. It is only Lamotte who separates them out. >Again, >Xuanzang would have had absolutely no reason to inflate figures for >Sammitiyas. If anything, he would have had an inclination to under-report >their presence. That adds strong credence and significance to his >demographics in this regard. I don't agree. Hars.a was his patron and he presented him as the Indian equivalent to the Chinese Emperor. So he may have had some motivation to over-state his support for Buddhism. Most Indologists believe he did. >We know that subsequent to Xuanzang's visit, Yijing (= I-tsing) not only >reported them as understood by the Indians to be one of the four main >branches of Buddhism, but, as was mentioned already, to have a presence >outside of India. Their main presence was in Champaa in modern Vietnam. > Valabhi, which had been a Yogacara and >Abhidharma stronghold during the time of Gunamati and Sthiramati (6th c), >subsequently became a Sammitiya stronghold (until decimated by the Muslims, >as per previous messages). I think Valabhii (like Naalandaa) was always a centre for all the '18 schools' as indicated by an inscription found there. I don't doubt that the Saamitiiyas predominated in numbers throughout, if not always in scholarship. >My impression (if yours differs, please explain) is that the Sarvastivadins, >who were virtually hegemonic throughout Central Asia for many centuries, >were forced fairly early on (2nd-4th centuries) to retreat to the Northwest, >drew a line in the sand in Kashmir, and prevented any major Sammitiya >incursions there. We have more inscriptions referring to the Sarvaastivaadins than any other school. That includes a number from Mathuraa and one from Sarnath. I suspect this simply means that inscriptions were more in vogue in the Kus.aan.a empire. So I do not think that they were 'forced to retreat' to the NW. That's where they came from i.e. Northern Pakistan, Kashmir and the Punjab. From there they spread across Central Asia and also along the Himalayas. And, like the other major schools, back into Magadha. >In short, conceding that Sammitiyas were only a major force during Harsha's >reign doesn't do justice to the extant evidence. At no point have I suggested that they were 'only a major force' at this time. I merely pointed out that this is likely to have been a point of special numbers and influence. >Gregory Schopen happened to have been in town this week, so I took the >opportunity to discuss some of this with him. When I asked him about >epigraphic evidence of Sammitiyas, he immediately referred me to an article >by someone named Lance Cousins! ;-) Well, that's kind of him. For the record and in case you have access to a wealthy library, it's been reprinted in one of the eight volumes of: Williams, Paul, _Buddhism: critical concepts in religious studies_, Routledge, London, 2005. >However, when I mentioned your Harsha theory, his response, without any >prompting from me, was, "that seems unlikely, doesn't it?" Without my >mentioning anything about geographical distribution, he volunteered, "they >were all over -- north, south, east and west." Yes, I have seen this statement. But after looking hard for twenty years, I can't find any evidence of their presence in South India. I think this is simply wrong. >Takakusu, p. xxiv, summarizes what Yijing reports as follows: > >"Arya-sammitiiya-nikaaya. >1. Four subdivisions [=sects]. >2. Tripitaka in 200,000 slokas; the Vinaya alone is 30,000 slokas. >3. Most flourishing in Laa.ta and Sindhu (W. India). It is in practice in >Magadha. A few in S. India. Side by side with the other in E. India. (Not in >N. India.) (Not in Ceylon.) A few in the islands of the Southern Sea. Mostly >followed in Champa (Cochin-China). (Not in China proper.)" > >So Takakusu understands Yijing to be saying that the Sammitiyas are dominant >in the west, more than holding their own in the East, present in the South, >and excluded from the North and Sri Lanka. This is just careless summarizing by Takakusu. The most you could possibly say is that when I-tsing says: "Towards the South (S. India), all follow the Sthaviranikaaya, though there exist a few adherents of the other Nikaayas" he might have intended to include a few Saamitiiyas. But since we know for a fact that Mahaasam.ghikas were present and Sarvaastivaada clearly spread into the Deccan in later times, it is unclear whether there is any reference to Saamitiiyas at all. Does the Chinese say: 'of the other Nikaayas' or does it say 'of other Nikaayas' ? In the latter case, or if it is ambiguous, there is no clear evidence of Saamitiiya presence at all. >Yijing does not give us anything like the demographic breakdown found in >Xuanzang, But much of what he says has been confirmed by more recent epigraphic and archaeological research e.g. for "Sriiks.etra and Dvaaravatii. > and, unlike Xuanzang, the accuracy of many of the details he >provides on other matters (from his description of Indian medicine, to the >curriculum at Nalanda) is in doubt. On medicine in general he is clearly eclectic, but some of what he says about Indian medicine is clearly correct. What is wrong with his description of the curriculum at Naalandaa ? >Takakusu's translation of this part is fine in general, but he misses some >nuances. For instance, Li translates the Magadha information as: > >"In Magadha all four Nikayas are in practice, but the Sarvastivada-nikaya is >the one most flourishing." (p. 11) > >This is only slightly different, but perhaps more clearly reflects that this >is more a question of proportion than of major dominance. It seems exactly the same to me ! Lance Cousins From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 2 00:41:26 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat Dec 2 00:41:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personalists. Was: Are we sick of dogma yet? Message-ID: Dan, responding to the final part of your message: > > >but resist the well attested fact that "sunyataa-vaada >> >also a blanket term used for a variety of non-Madhyamaka schools >(including >> >in Pali sources) is surprising. >> >> I asked for evidence. > >We could start with the Vetulyas, discussed back in May on this list. I >wrote at that time: > >As to who they were, the English tr. of the Kathaavatthu, _Points of >Controversy_, states in an annotation to XVII.6 (another position attributed >to them by the commentary) that "the Vetulya[ka]s, who are known as the >Mahaasu~n~nataavaadins." There is some debate among scholars whether these >Mahaa-"suunyataa-vaadins are to be identified with proto-Madhyamaka, other >groups (such as that reflected in the Tattvasiddhi), or something else. The Kathaavatthu itself is not clearly referring to any kind of Mahaayaana here. So I think that the commentary (fourth or fifth century A.D.) may be in error with this attribution. Note that it specifically attributes the view to those 'nowadays'. Most manuscripts and editions refer to Mahaapu??avaadins here. Neither term is ever found elsewhere in Pali literature. In any case, whichever you read, they are some kind of Vetullaka (Vetulyaka is Minayeff's construction from his only two manuscripts which read Cetulyaka- and Vatullaka- respectively. Jayawickrame's edition used more manuscripts, etc. and has only Vetullaka-.) So the reference is to some kind of Mahaayaaana known in the fourth or fifth century. > >This is Lamotte's error. Yet he at least >> presents plenty of evidence against his own understanding. > >So this is why you wanted me to stick strictly to the Lamotte line? Lamotte >did a service by merely bringing a (shall we say "initial") tabulation to >our attention, though it took a number of decades for the import of that >tabulation to be taken up by others. I think most of us read it more carefully ! >For me the eye-opener was Thich Thien >Chau's book, which focused less on demographics, and rather tried to recover >from the Pudgalavadin texts themselves what the school in fact propounded. His thesis and subsequent articles were most valuable. >It was so unlike what they had been depicted as holding -- so much more >reasonable and prefiguring later developments, especially in Mahayana. I don't think it prefigures the Mahaayaana in any way. > The >demographics, at least to me, are secondary, but significant. It's as if a >long-lost important school (for its doctrines and sheer presence for over a >millennium) was suddenly rediscovered. It's important. But not quite as massively so as you want to argue. Lance Cousins From joy at vrienstrad.com Sat Dec 2 01:26:18 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat Dec 2 01:26:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personalists. Was: Are we sick of dogma yet? References: Message-ID: Hi Lance, >I don't think it prefigures the Mahaayaana in any way. What exactly is Mahaayaana, where could that line need to be drawn (if it does) and what would you say does prefigure it? Joy From joy at vrienstrad.com Sat Dec 2 01:42:47 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat Dec 2 01:43:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Saantideva (Re: Pudgalavada) References: Message-ID: Richard Nance wrote, >But, of course, interpreting a text may well require more than >assessing the logical contours of its claims. Regarding this >particular verse, the Indian commentator Praj?aakaramati notes that >what 'Saantideva is driving at is, roughly, that mind/mental phenomena >are, in an ultimate sense (paramaarthata.h), not substantially >existent (na vastusat), due to being essenceless (ni.hsvabhaava). >This, in general terms, is what the notion of emptiness is usually >taken to involve or imply. To be "empty" is to be empty of essential >or substantial existence, where essential/substantial existence is >taken to be opposed to the notion that things arise in dependence on >causes and conditions. >So: the verse's "ki?cit" should be read as referring to any >*substantially existent* thing. Does this help? Yes a lot. For me to be empty (hollow) is not to be nothing. By the greatest coincidence (as always) I read today a quote of Nagarjuna (I don't know what text, it isn't specified) in the De kho na nyid bcu pa?i rgya cher ?grel pa Tattva-dasaka-?ika by Sahajavajra. It goes like this: blo gros dman pa 'ga' zhig gis yod pa'ang ni med mthong ba de yis dngos rnams nyer zhi zhing dge ba'i blta bya nyid ma mthong Which would translate like this: Those of lesser intelligence Even see that which exists as non-existent They thus eliminate real things And can't even see anymore what is considered virtuous. It's a complicated matter, but I like the fact that Nagarjuna includes moral matters in the discussion about what is real and not. In fact, the things that really count in my life, the things that are *alive*, would be considered unreal in a material, substantial sense. The shortcut "mind is nothing" is wrong for various reasons IMO. It would be affirming something, which is not very Madhyamaka like. Mind is (like) this, it is nothing, is not the same as saying "mind is not something". And my second observation would be why all the fuss about "nothing"? Joy From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 2 02:40:35 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat Dec 2 02:43:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personalists. Was: Are we sick of dogma yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joy, > >I don't think it prefigures the Mahaayaana in any way. > >What exactly is Mahaayaana, That would need a book ! But here I was talking historically (not doctrinally). So my meaning was simply that I think that Leonard Priestley and Peter Skilling are mistaken to see the Pudgalavaadin texts preserved in Chinese as presenting material which is old and influenced the formation of the ideas found in e.g. Naagaarjuna. I see them rather as adopting some of the methods of early Mahaayaana literature in order to mount an effective response. To put it another way, those texts belong to the period of "saastra and commentarial literature. >where could that line need to be drawn (if it does) It would need to be specific. >and what would you say does prefigure it? > >Joy The extant Canonical literature of Theravaada and Sarvaastivaada. I see it as mostly a natural development from the trends found in later canonical literature. Lance Cousins From bcarral at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 17:58:47 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Sat Dec 2 07:29:13 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] About an enlightened government Message-ID: <1493466736.20061202015847@gmail.com> Dear Buddha-L denizens, I think to remember that I read Buddhadasa some years ago about why democracy is not good and why an enlightened goverment should be preferable. Maybe he was not Buddhadasa after all. Are you familiar with this thought in a modern Buddhist teacher? Do you know the source? Thank you and best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Sat Dec 2 10:53:38 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat Dec 2 10:52:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #3a References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><00eb01c71311$822c1f90$0b369c04@Dan><005301c7141e$fb037270$fa067257@zen><015001c7148f$41cc85f0$9d369c04@Dan> <021f01c71591$e1e10450$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <029e01c7163a$ccd8c120$fa067257@zen> Dear Dan et al, I am not sure if Al is enjoying this, but I have an amendment to my previous posting. I had there: > If it were the same, it would be impermanent and [prone to] suffering, but > if it were different, it would be permanent and yet [prone to] suffering. To bring this in line with parallel passages, in the YBS for example, I think that the last clause should be amended to "it would be permanent and *not* suffering". The existing "wei" in the text is sufficiently similar to "bu" to surmise a scribal error. Also, I am not entirely happy with my (or Dan's rendering either) of: > for that would utterly eradicate painful, pleasant and neutral qualities > in the past and the future. It might need a re-think :( Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Sat Dec 2 16:26:41 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat Dec 2 16:25:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada #3b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan> <00f901c71311$a4bbeea0$0b369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <02ba01c71669$52e49e00$fa067257@zen> Dear Dan et al, Here is my rendering of the next part of the text. I hope some of my suggestions will be useful. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge * * * * * (Longer version, pt. 2) DL: [To speak of] "past, future and present" is to practice the heuristics for metaphorical device. This is the heuristics for metaphorical device by naming. [i.e., past, present and future are only nominally real.] This is the association of the three times (past, present and future). Such as: "In the past, I was King Ku'sa". "In the future I will have the name Ajita." "At present I work at mastering an understanding (by means of mantric arts) of what's important [roles I] have not yet assumed or have already assumed, [such as] merchant (in the three times)." SH: *Upaaya-praj?apti names past, future and present sa.mskaaras. Naming by this *upaaya-praj?apti concerns the connection / continuity of the three times, as [when the Buddha said], "In the past, I was King Kuoa", "In the future, [you] shall be named Ajita", "In the present, [he] is a successful erchant (vai'sya)" and so forth. The various sa.mskaaras have already been appropriated [in the past] or have not yet been appropriated [in the future], but are designated for the sake of convention. NOTES: This section is textually a mess ! * I suggest deleting the twice duplicated "fangbian jiaoshou". * The text for the third quote is particularly garbled in my opinion. I think Thien Chau has got it wrong and Dan's version is quite creative. * First, "gongshi" is an attested form for "vai'sya" and a annotation about this was inserted, but displaced -- thereby interupting the next sentence. * Additionally, the "mantric arts" is a complete red-herring which should be deleted. Somebody saw the "gong shi da" and separated off the "shi da" and assumed it was a transcription for "siddha". That my reconstruction is roughly correct can be seen by looking at the same set of quotes given in T1649 (p466b 27). * Finally, Dan's "what's important" here and elsewhere is a misunderstanding of "wei shou" -- this is merely an attested translation of "-aadi", literally "headed by / beginning with", but usually meaning "et cetera". * I have re-punctuated "sushu gu jiaoshou" since that comment logically goes with the statement concerning the sa.mskaaras. Moreover, I suggest amending "shu" to "yi", to yield an equivalent to "vyavahaara" or "sa.mv.rti" DL: Such conventional roles are numerous, hence they are heuristically adopted [by assuming their] annihilation and permanence. If Ku'sa has ceased, in what sense am I he? If he has not ceased, in what sense can one say he is I? It is by means of conventionalisms (vyavahara) that one says so; it is a heuristic metaphorical device. SH: Because of this annihilation and permanence, [one might ask], "If that Ku'sa has perished, then how am I he ? If he has not perished, how can one say that he is me ?" One speaks about [this] on the sa.mv.rti level of meaning. This is *upaaya-praj~napti. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 2 22:15:30 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 2 22:15:34 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? Message-ID: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie> Jeffery Long asked me to post this on the list. Hopes someone here can solve the mystery. He is also about to join I think. Joanna ================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffery D Long" To: "RISA Academic Discussion List" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:34 PM Subject: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? > Dear RISA-jana, > > Do any of you know the source of the following story? An English lit. > friend of mine is looking for it: > > The Buddha is walking along a river one day when he meets an aged yogi who > is sitting on the bank. The yogi shows his respect and says, "Enlightened > one, I have spent 25 years in fervent meditation and at last I have > succeeded in walking upon water so that I can walk dry-shod across the > river." The Buddha thinks about this for a few minutes, and finally > commends the yogi, noting that his dedication is admirable, but that there > is a perfectly serviceable bridge 100 yards downstream. > > I seem to recall that this is from the Pali canon, but I can't recall > where, > and have not been able to locate it. It may not even be authentic. But > if > anyone knows, I would be most grateful for the information. > > Jeff Long > > Dr. Jeffery D. Long > Associate Professor of Religion and Asian Studies > Chair, Department of Religious Studies > Elizabethtown College > Elizabethtown, PA 17022 > > "One who makes a habit of meditation will easily overcome all difficulties > and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." (Holy > Mother Sharada Devi) > > _______________________________________________ > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L@lists.sandiego.edu > http://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date: 12/1/2006 > 1:12 PM > > From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 22:48:51 2006 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sat Dec 2 22:48:58 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? In-Reply-To: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <20061203054851.82207.qmail@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I first encountered this story in, "What Buddhist Believe" by Ven Dr. K Sri Dhammananda. http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/dhammananda/ In the chapter, Miraculous Power, Ven Dhammananda wrote: "The following story illustrates the Buddha's attitude towards miraculous powers. One day the Buddha met an ascetic who sat by the bank of a river. This ascetic had practised austerities for 25 years. The Buddha asked him what he had received for all his labour. The ascetic proudly replied that, now at last, he could cross the river by walking on the water. The Buddha pointed out that this gain was insignificant for all the years of labour, since he could cross the river using a ferry for one penny! " http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/dhammananda/31.htm Unfortunately, Ven Dhammananda did not provide any reference for the story. It also appears in, "BUDDHISM: It's Essence and Development" by Edward Conze (pp 104-5): "One day the Buddha met an ascetic who sat by the bank of a river. This ascetic had practised austerities for 25 years. The Buddha asked him what he had received for all his labor. The ascetic proudly replied that, now at last, he could cross the river by walking on the water. The Buddha pointed out that this gain was insignificant for all the years of labor, since he could cross the river using a ferry for one penny!" I am not sure whether Conze provided any reference. Best wishes, Rahula jkirk wrote: Jeffery Long asked me to post this on the list. Hopes someone here can solve the mystery. He is also about to join I think. Joanna ================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffery D Long" To: "RISA Academic Discussion List" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:34 PM Subject: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? > Dear RISA-jana, > > Do any of you know the source of the following story? An English lit. > friend of mine is looking for it: > > The Buddha is walking along a river one day when he meets an aged yogi who > is sitting on the bank. The yogi shows his respect and says, "Enlightened > one, I have spent 25 years in fervent meditation and at last I have > succeeded in walking upon water so that I can walk dry-shod across the > river." The Buddha thinks about this for a few minutes, and finally > commends the yogi, noting that his dedication is admirable, but that there > is a perfectly serviceable bridge 100 yards downstream. > > I seem to recall that this is from the Pali canon, but I can't recall > where, > and have not been able to locate it. It may not even be authentic. But > if > anyone knows, I would be most grateful for the information. > > Jeff Long > > Dr. Jeffery D. Long > Associate Professor of Religion and Asian Studies > Chair, Department of Religious Studies > Elizabethtown College > Elizabethtown, PA 17022 > > "One who makes a habit of meditation will easily overcome all difficulties > and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." (Holy > Mother Sharada Devi) > > _______________________________________________ > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L@lists.sandiego.edu > http://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l > > --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061202/cea375be/attachment.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 3 12:06:09 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun Dec 3 12:06:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen> <020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: Well, Dan and Stephen, Thanks for letting us see this. It is very interesting to get some further sense of the problem areas. I do have questions ! Obviously they concern what the original text might have meant and not how the Chinese (or later Indians for that matter) would have taken it. Firstly, what is praj?apti of appropriation ? Is this rendering upaadaaya praj?apti ? Or, something more like the Pali upaadaapa??atti ? (I assume the former is a Sanskritization of Middle Indic forms like the latter, but it seems to acquire new meanings in Sanskrit). I would take upaadaa(ya) as just meaning 'in relation to' or 'in dependence upon'. The chariot is known in dependence upon the parts. It doesn't appropriate them. Following this line of thought, ignorance concerning derivative concepts would be ignorance concerning any kind of derivative/secondary concept. So the (first) text is giving an example of a case where there is ignorance concerning secondary concepts i.e. falsely understanding the jiiva to be in some relationship with the aggregates rather than a derivative notion. If you understand that it is a derivative notion, then this counteracts the notion that beings exist. Secondly, there is some problem with praj?apti itself here. Down to the paracanonical literature in Pali we hardly get praj?apti in the precise sense of 'concept'. It is used more generally in a sense like 'making known'. I tend to think that if it were used in that way here in both these texts it would mean that these texts probably do not pre-date the second or third century A.D. Thirdly, I too am not very convinced by the idea of *upaayapraj?apti. It seems worthwhile here to look at the lists of types of pa??atti in the Pali Abhidhamma Commentary. In particular here we have two sets of six which are specifically stated to be teachers' methods, not deriving from the Commentary. This very possibly means that they were introduced to Ceylon from elsewhere. Relevant here are: a) relative (upanidhaa) pa??atti which is used to refer to such things as number or spatial measurement or time which are true in relation to (lit. in comparison to) something else; b) asa'nkhatapa??atti used for describing nibbaana; c) continuity (santati) pa??atti. This normally applies to labels applied to the 'same' person at different times in one life, but could presumably apply to the 'same' person across multiple lives. A simpler version is given by the commentator Buddhadatta (who may or may not have been a contemporary of Buddhaghosa). He divides into three kinds of pa??atti: 1. tajjaa i.e. describing a reality (this would include nibbaana); 2. derivative (upaadaa) 3. relative (upanidhaa) This would be quite close to the list of three in our second Pudgalavaadin text, if upanidhaa were the underlying term corresponding to the supposed upaaya-. In that case, the text is giving illustrations of ignorance concerning relative or comparative terms, in this case 'past', 'present' and so on. Well, I am not really sure how helpful this is, but it seemed worth a try. We should note that we do not know whether Pudgalavaadin literature was closer in its language to the Pakistani Buddhism of the Sarvaastivaadins or the Sri Lankan Buddhism of the Theravaadins. Lance Cousins From bclough at aucegypt.edu Mon Dec 4 05:40:43 2006 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (Bradley Clough) Date: Mon Dec 4 05:40:30 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? In-Reply-To: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie> References: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <4b1875e820b39e3fa65e7e16b16b2dbd@aucegypt.edu> I'm afraid this may well remain an "unsolved mystery". I have been trying to track down the original source of this for years with no luck. It seems it appears in many secondary sources like Dhammanada and Conze, as Ngawang Dorje alerted us to, but nowhere is the primary source given. Recent posts to the experts on both Buddha-L and H-Buddhism have also turned up nothing. Brad Clough The American University in Cairo bclough@aucegypt.edu On Dec 3, 2006, at 7:15 AM, jkirk wrote: > Jeffery Long asked me to post this on the list. Hopes someone here can > solve the mystery. > He is also about to join I think. > Joanna > ================================= > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffery D Long" > To: "RISA Academic Discussion List" > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:34 PM > Subject: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? > > >> Dear RISA-jana, >> >> Do any of you know the source of the following story? An English lit. >> friend of mine is looking for it: >> >> The Buddha is walking along a river one day when he meets an aged >> yogi who >> is sitting on the bank. The yogi shows his respect and says, >> "Enlightened >> one, I have spent 25 years in fervent meditation and at last I have >> succeeded in walking upon water so that I can walk dry-shod across the >> river." The Buddha thinks about this for a few minutes, and finally >> commends the yogi, noting that his dedication is admirable, but that >> there >> is a perfectly serviceable bridge 100 yards downstream. >> >> I seem to recall that this is from the Pali canon, but I can't recall >> where, >> and have not been able to locate it. It may not even be authentic. >> But if >> anyone knows, I would be most grateful for the information. >> >> Jeff Long >> >> Dr. Jeffery D. Long >> Associate Professor of Religion and Asian Studies >> Chair, Department of Religious Studies >> Elizabethtown College >> Elizabethtown, PA 17022 >> >> "One who makes a habit of meditation will easily overcome all >> difficulties >> and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." >> (Holy >> Mother Sharada Devi) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RISA-L mailing list >> RISA-L@lists.sandiego.edu >> http://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date: >> 12/1/2006 1:12 PM >> > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Mon Dec 4 09:49:27 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon Dec 4 09:48:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? References: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie> <4b1875e820b39e3fa65e7e16b16b2dbd@aucegypt.edu> Message-ID: <005901c717c4$29b84700$dc0a7257@zen> Bradley Clough wrote: > I'm afraid this may well remain an "unsolved mystery" [snip] but nowhere > is the primary source given. Recent posts to the experts on both Buddha-L > and H-Buddhism have also turned up nothing. It is/was a ferquent and, apparently, favourite quote here by Richard Hayes -- perhaps he can come out of lurk-mode and tell us whee he got it from. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Mon Dec 4 10:27:23 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:26:12 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <005e01c717c9$7601c000$dc0a7257@zen> L.S. Cousins wrote: > Thanks for letting us see this. It is very interesting to get some further > sense of the problem areas. Yes, these occasional specialist exchanges make Bud-L worth the time. > I do have questions ! Obviously they concern what the original text might > have meant and not how the Chinese (or later Indians for that matter) > would have taken it. That would coincide with my interest as well. Dan is perhaps a little more interested in how the Chinese understood. > Firstly, what is praj?apti of appropriation ? Is this rendering upaadaaya > praj?apti ? Or, something more like the Pali upaadaapa??atti ? There is no way of deciding apart from informed inference. Chinese often doesn't convey those differences. The character "shou" could cover all variants of upadaana -- it is also widely used elsewhere for "vedanaa". This might give you an idea of the problems involved with Chinese texts. A lot of guesswork based on context. You are probably as well-placed as anbody to decide, but I think it is less likely to be "upaadaaya" as that is often expressed differently. > I would take upaadaa(ya) as just meaning 'in relation to' or 'in > dependence upon'. It doesn't appropriate them. I suspect it could be something like "upadaana" as in "upadaana-skandha" > Secondly, there is some problem with praj?apti itself here. Agreed -- I believe I said as much myself. But as Dan highlighted, there are two understandings of "praj~napti" here -- the short text (T1506) translates it in the technical sense ,while the longer text (T1505) seems to understand it as just "makes known". It is difficult to draw any conclusions here about the original usage intentions of the authors. > Thirdly, I too am not very convinced by the idea of *upaayapraj?apti. Again, I am in agreement with you here. The use of "fangbian" is very common for "upaaya", but it is, I hope, obvious that we are not dealing with that here. I have looked through the various indices I have to hand, as well as the index to Ogiwara's Bon-Wa Jiten, but nothing obvious stands out. But apart from upaaya / naya, fangbian most often translates some derivative of YUJ, so something like "sa.myoga"might be feasible - especially as the definition of the term uses a form often translating "sa.myukta". Your lists of Pali "pa??atti"s look suggestive -- there seems to be some commality of thought there. The "continuity (santati) pa??atti" would seems closest in sense to the "fangbian-praj~napti" just discussed. . This normally applies to labels applied to the 'same' person at different times in one life, but could presumably apply to the 'same' person across multiple lives. A simpler version is given by the commentator Buddhadatta (who may or may not have been a contemporary of Buddhaghosa). He divides into three kinds of pa??atti: > 3. relative (upanidhaa). This would be quite close to the list of three > in our second Pudgalavaadin text, if upanidhaa were the underlying term > corresponding to the supposed upaaya-. I wonder how "upanidhaa" might get distorted in some Prakrits -- the Sammitiyas were said to use Apabhramsha at a later stage and we all know what fun Apabhramsha can be (eg: "uaaa" for "upaaya"). I also find it useful to think of the scripts used -- with the well-known possibilities for mis-reading certain letters -- "ya" being one of them. > In that case, the text is giving illustrations of ignorance concerning > relative or comparative terms, in this case 'past', > 'present' and so on. I would have thought they were more concerned here with the problem of continuity / non-continuity of an individual over the three times, rather than the three times themselves. Or have I misunderstood you ?. See Thien Chau p162 for another, more detailed, source. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 10:26:23 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:26:45 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <008701c717c9$530bdc20$0c369c04@Dan> Stephen, Lance and whoever remains interested, Like Lance, I don't think fangbien in the long version should be taken as upaaya, although usually, in other Buddhist texts, fangbian is used for upaaya. Similarly some of the other "attested" uses of Chinese equivalents that Stephen is trying to employ may also be off the mark. One of the things that makes these texts (and quite a few other early translations) so difficult is that many of what became standard equivalents a short time later were not yet established. Translators were freer in their efforts. The Chinese began to become aware of these problems around this time (Dao'an was a reformer, reacting againsts the lack of clear standards and readability in translations). Kumarajiva arrived in China a short time after these translations were made, and a new (and better) age of Buddhist translation began. That we have two versions of the core passages (with all sorts of differences of vocabulary and organization, as Stephen has commented) gives us additional clues that would be lacking if we had only one or the other version surviving in Chinese. Everything is made more difficult, of course, by the fact that we have virtually no Pudgalavada literature surviving in the original Indic language(s) with which to compare and analyze. In terms of the specific questions Lance raises -- what was the Indic original for "appropriation" in the first prajnapti, and what underlies Stephen's "upaya" [my "metaphorical device"; Priestley offers "approaches"] for the second, let me offer a few comments. 1. The translator of the long version, Jiumoluofoti = *Kum?rabuddhi, is otherwise unknown as a translator. No other texts, as far as I can tell, are attributed to him. So we cannot look any other exemplars to help us gauge his translation style. The translator of the short version, on the other hand, Sengjiatipo = *Sa?ghadeva, is also associated with T.26.1543, the Chinese translation of the root Sarvastivada Abhidharma text, (Abhidharma) J??naprasth?na-??stra (upon which the Mahaaviha.sa is considered an extended commentary). I am not aware of his having participated in any other translations. 2. Kumarabuddhi's use of Chinese "equivalents" is odd, and not to be trusted when compared with the short version. Upaya is just such a case. The short version has "prajnapti of the past" in the second position, which fits its later examples of this type of prajnapti. The long version introduces fangbian, which usually signifies upaya, but, according to the expanded examples it gives, has added the future to the mix, so that this would be a prajnapti of past AND future. We don't know if he had a text with an different term here, or whether he is adjusting his terminology to accomodate his expanded discussion, nor even the extent to which the expanded discussion reflects, on the one hand, a different version/recension of the text, or, on the other hand, his own glosses and translator's license. As is often the case with such minor translators, we are unsure of how much Chinese he actually knew, and to what extent what we are looking at is the result of the (mis-)understandings of his Chinese assistant(s), who tried to turn oral translations and expressions into written texts. We don't know the background of his assistants, or how they thought about Buddhism, how they would have filtered Kumarabuddhi's exposition, etc. All we have is the text. 3. Both versions use shou for the first prajnapti. Shou has a variety of meanings: when used, e.g., as a name for a skandha or one of the 12-fold links of pratitya-samutpada, shou = vedan? (pleasure, pain, neutral sensation). The Chinese term itself generally means "to receive," "to experience." In addition to vedana, Muller's dictionary gives the following Sanskrit attested equivalents (from Hirakawa): up?d?na, bhoga, udgraha?a, adhiv?san?, adhiv?saya, adhiv?sayati, anubhavana, anubhavanat?, anubh?ta, anubh?yate, anuyoga, abhinirvartayati, abhipatti, abhi?va?ga, abhy?gama, abhyupagata, abhyupagama, abhyupapanna, avinodaka, avinodana, ?graha, ?d?na, utp?dayati, utp?dita, utso?havya, udgaha?at?, udg?h?ta, udg?h?tavat, udgraha, udvahana, upagata, upabhoga, upasa?h?ra, upasthita, up?tta, up?d?ya, kriyam??a, g?ddha, g?h?ta, g?h?at, graha, graha?a, gr?hin, gr?hya, dhara, dh?rayati, parig?h?ta, parigraha, parigr?haka, paribhukta, paribhoktavya, po?in, prag?hya, pratig?h?ta, pratig?h?t?, pratig?hya, pratigrah?t?, pratigr?haka, pratipanna, pratilambha, prativedayate, prati?rutya, praits?vedana*, pratisa?vedayati, pratis?vedin, prat?cchana, pratyanubhavana*, pratyanubh?tavat, pratye?aka, pratye?emahi, pravid, pr?pta, pr?pti, prek?in, bhuj, bhokt?, bhogin, mar?a?a, l?bhin, vitti, vid, veda, vedan?ya, vedan?yat?, vedayati, vedayita, vedita, vedin, vedya, sa?v?tta, sa?vedayati, sa?graha, samarpita, sam?tta, sam?datta, sam?d?nat?, sam?patti, sam?padya, sam?padyati, sam?sanna, sa?prat?cchana, sa?prat?cchanat?, sa?pratye?a?a, sa?bhoga, sahi??ut?, sevitavya, sp??ta. 4. I suspect the underlying term for shou in this case is something like up?dhi, often taken as an equivalent for up?d?na (cf., e.g., Sthiramati's Trimsika-bhasya). Lance's nuances (upanidhaa pa??atti, upaadaa[ya]) are helpful, but we have no assurance that the pudgalavadins were using such terms in the same way that the Pali tradition did, especially since one of the main contentious issues between them revolved around different understandings of terms such as pudgala and prajnapti. Theravadins may have employed these terms in a deliberately differentiating manner from their Pudgalavadin usage. (to be continued) Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061204/1c8226a7/attachment-0001.html From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Mon Dec 4 11:03:53 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon Dec 4 11:02:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> <008701c717c9$530bdc20$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <009901c717ce$8f4e6590$dc0a7257@zen> Dan , Lance et al, I supose that there are others apart from us who are interested in these matters. So for that sake of completeness, we should really look at T1649, which also has a discussion of these three praj~naptis -- which seems to be more extended that the other two. I'll try and do a translation, although this text is also a brain-teaser. >Stephen is trying to employ may also be off the mark. Not trying to employ -- just trying them out. > what underlies Stephen's "upaya" [my "metaphorical device"; Priestley > offers "approaches"] My "upaaya" ? I was, as should have been clear, using it just as a kind of temporary place-marker. Your "metaphorical device" made me assume that you had "upaaya" in mind. Your other comments should help the non-specialists appreciate the difficulties invovled with these early non-standardized, often low-grade, translations. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 12:08:45 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 12:09:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> Message-ID: <00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan> (continued from previous message) 5. While, like Lance, I am also interested in what the "original" Indic text might have said, I am also interested in how it was expressed in Chinese (we don't have much evidence that either of these texts exerted much influence on Chinese Buddhism overall). The differences in choices of equivalents -- if not simply signs of incompetence -- may provide us with some indications of how the Indic terms were understood and employed by different Buddhists at that time. 6. As discussed previously, the short text uses shishe for prajnapti. This became one of the standard equivalents, and implies something like Stephen's "label" or, more precisely, verbally imputing, i.e., something with merely linguistic status. The long version's equivalent, jiaoshou, is a surprise and unusual. Jiaoshou means something like "to express so as to teach," an expression used to teach, and hence my "heuristic," which is a teaching device. Reflecting on the context of the use of prajnapti in Pudgalavada, especially in these passages, jiaoshou seems to be a clever translation attempt. These are prajnaptis that are used to impart the Dharma, e.g., in terms of the second prajnapti, to reinforce jataka stories (which were very popular in China and Central Asia at that time, judging from Faxian's travelog and Chinese discussions of this time -- keeping in mind that rebirth theories were relatively new and exotic to the Chinese, rather than pervasive as in India), and to guarantee pranidhana predictions. If one doesn't believe in spiritual progress, i.e., that one can improve one's status, progress on the path, etc., one will be nihilistic concerning that possibility. A person who "annihilates" cannot make meaningful progress. On the other hand, one has to avoid falling into the conceptual pitfalls of assuming that the progressing person has a permanent self. So the person (pudgala) is neither permanent nor annihilational; yet, while there is no atmanic substance, stories of past and future lives are positive exhortations, useful prajnaptis, heuristics, jiaoshou. 7. As I mentioned when posting my initial translations, the long version seems to use a number of Chinese terms in ways that are unusual in a Buddhist context; terms like bi, which, in Buddhist contexts, usually means "comparison," or "inference," here seems to mean "figure of speech," a Chinese literary usage. Fangbian also has a Chinese literary usage, viz. "metaphor," or indirect use of language. 8. While I haven't surveyed the full extent of the long text searching for additional "literary" usages of terms such as these, their concentration in this passage suggested that Kumarabuddhi's assistants might have been literati more used to such literary Chinese usages than to developing Buddhist usages, i.e., Chinese steeped in their own literary tradition. The case of fangbian, I have been discovering, poses additional problems. Since its use as an equivalent for upaya became well-known -- the idea of upaya itself becoming a major Mahayana notion in East Asian Buddhism, its Buddhist usage eclipsed its incipient Chinese usage -- so much so that quite a few standard reference works treat the term fangbian as a Buddhist invention. While it is true that fangbian does not appear in the ancient classical literature (Zhuangzi, Guanzi, Huainanzi, etc.) as far as I can tell, it does appear in some early chronicles, initially in a "political sense," which Mathews (in his Ch-Eng Dict) unintentionally captures as "that which is not strictly according to rule, but which is convenient." In the chronicles the stories using the term usually involve some linguistic element -- a diplomatic turn of phrase, avoidance of saying something, or saying/implying something indirectly. In a literary sense it also came to mean a "metaphor" in the broad sense of that term, i.e., a word or expression that indicates something indirectly rather than literally -- a verbal reference that does "not strictly" follow the "rule" of literalness (cf. upac?ra). It was that usage that, I think, led the Buddhists to adopt it for upaya (and not the other way around). 9. That leaves the question of what Indic term underlies fangbian in the long version in place of the unambiguous "prajnapti of the past" of the short version. Frankly, I don't know. Kumarabuddhi, according to the colophons, was from Turfan, a member of the royal family, so that his language and conceptualizations would have been influenced by C. Asianisms (about which we have only the dimmest sense) is plausible. Thich T.C. briefly discusses the possibility (asserted by Bareau) that this text was originally in a Prakrit, nor pure Sanskrit, and doesn't rule that possibility out. 10. We should note that Thich T.C. Sanskritizes the three prajnaptis (Preface, p. ix) as follows: ??raya-praj?apta-pudgala, sa?krama-praj?apta-pudgala, nirodha-praj?apta-pudgala How solid these suggestions are I am not sure (only the 3rd corresponds exactly with what we have in both the long and short text; ??raya for shou -- rather than up?dhi -- seems unlikely). Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061204/560ad11d/attachment.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 4 11:57:41 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon Dec 4 12:31:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <008701c717c9$530bdc20$0c369c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> <008701c717c9$530bdc20$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, Various points of interest noted. >4. I suspect the underlying term for shou in this case is something >like up?dhi, often taken as an equivalent for up?d?na (cf., e.g., >Sthiramati's Trimsika-bhasya). Lance's nuances (upanidhaa pa??atti, >upaadaa[ya]) are helpful, but we have no assurance that the >pudgalavadins were using such terms in the same way that the Pali >tradition did, especially since one of the main contentious issues >between them revolved around different understandings of terms such >as pudgala and prajnapti. Theravadins may have employed these terms >in a deliberately differentiating manner from their Pudgalavadin >usage. But this argument cuts both ways. What assurance do we have that the Pudgalavaadins were using these terms in the ways that we find in the predominantly northern and north-western literature that survives in Sanskrit and in Chinese or Tibetan translation ? The comparison that I am thinking of here is with upaadaayaruupa (Pali upaadaaruupa). Here the various kinds of materiality (eye, visible object, etc.) are secondary to or dependent on the four primary elements. I don't think there is any question of appropriation here. Obviously, the issue partly depends on whether I am right to think that what we have are examples of these three kinds of praj?apti in association with ignorance. They could also apply in other cases without ignorance. Or, is there something in the Chinese text which rules this out ? Lance Cousins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061204/289a17f0/attachment.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 4 12:25:53 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon Dec 4 12:31:07 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <005e01c717c9$7601c000$dc0a7257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> <005e01c717c9$7601c000$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: Stephen, >>Firstly, what is praj?apti of appropriation ? Is this rendering >>upaadaaya praj?apti ? Or, something more like the Pali >>upaadaapa??atti ? >There is no way of deciding apart from informed inference. Chinese >often doesn't convey those differences. The character "shou" could >cover all variants of upadaana -- it is also widely used elsewhere >for "vedanaa". This might give you an idea of the problems involved >with Chinese texts. A lot of guesswork based on context. You are >probably as well-placed as anbody to decide, but I think it is less >likely to be "upaadaaya" as that is often expressed differently. > >>I would take upaadaa(ya) as just meaning 'in relation to' or 'in >>dependence upon'. It doesn't appropriate them. >I suspect it could be something like "upadaana" as in "upadaana-skandha" How is upaadaaruupa handled in early translations ? >I wonder how "upanidhaa" might get distorted in some Prakrits -- the >Sammitiyas were said to use Apabhramsha at a later stage and we all >know what fun Apabhramsha can be (eg: "uaaa" for "upaaya"). I also >find it useful to think of the scripts used -- with the well-known >possibilities for mis-reading certain letters -- "ya" being one of >them. Sheth's Prakrit Dictionary has: uva.nihaa, but there are other possibilities for Gaandhaarii or indeed Apabhra.m"sa. >>In that case, the text is giving illustrations of ignorance >>concerning relative or comparative terms, in this case 'past', >>'present' and so on. >I would have thought they were more concerned here with the problem >of continuity / non-continuity of an individual over the three >times, rather than the three times themselves. Or have I >misunderstood you ?. See Thien Chau p162 for another, more >detailed, source. What I have is a xerox of his thesis. Perhaps the pagination doesn't correspond to what you have ? I don't find anything on p. 162. Lance From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 4 12:28:26 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon Dec 4 12:31:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <009901c717ce$8f4e6590$dc0a7257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> <008701c717c9$530bdc20$0c369c04@Dan> <009901c717ce$8f4e6590$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: Stephen, >I supose that there are others apart from us who are interested in >these matters. So for that sake of completeness, we should really >look at T1649, which also has a discussion of these three >praj~naptis -- which seems to be more extended that the other two. >I'll try and do a translation, although this text is also a >brain-teaser. That will be interesting, if you have the time. Lance From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 13:03:36 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 13:03:49 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen> <00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan> I should amend my previous, as it turns out incorrect, comment that Sanghadeva -- the translator of the short version -- is only connected with the Jnanaprasthana (apart from the short text). He was much more active, though not everything has survived. In addition to the Jnanaprasthana, he translated 1. abhidharma-h?daya-??stra (T.28.1550, the first of several times this was translated; the prototype from which Vasubandhu's Abhidharmako?a derived) 2. an Abhidharma-Vibh??? (lost, we don't know if this is Sa?mit?ya, Sarv?stiv?da, etc.) 3. the Madhyam?gama (T.1.26, the non-Therav?din version of the Majjhima-nik?ya) 4. the Ekottar?gama (T.2.125, the non-Therav?din version of the Angutara-Nik?ya) 5. and a lost Jiaoshou [!] biqiuni fa (Prajnapti [?]-bhik?u??-dharma) [note Jiaoshou, used for the second praj?apti in the long text, here seems to be used in its more regular meaning or "teachings, instructions". Since the text is not extant we can only guess that it might have been something similar to the Therigata. Lacking any inflection or prepositions, it's not clear if this is Teachings OF the Nuns, or Teachings TO the nuns, or Teachings ABOUT nuns.] Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061204/70a48ca0/attachment-0001.html From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 14:04:57 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 14:05:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><008701c717c9$530bdc20$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <018a01c717e7$db8d6730$0c369c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] PudgalavadaLance, But this argument cuts both ways. What assurance do we have that the Pudgalavaadins were using these terms in the ways that we find in the predominantly northern and north-western literature that survives in Sanskrit and in Chinese or Tibetan translation ? I think your suggestions are helpful, but "assurance" is the key word. Since we have virtually no extant Indian templates on which to go, we have no assurances on anything. Everything is speculation, including the attempts to decode the texts by Stephen, Thich T.C., Priestley, and myself. What we can surmise, in general, is that the pudgalavadins (I think henceforth I will use this term uncapitalized in order to mark that it is not the proper name of any school, but a classificatory category imputed by others) took their Agamas very seriously (the long and short texts are both Agama commentaries, and are so classified in the Chinese canon), they had a distinctive Vinaya (Yijing gives up some examples of specific details in which they differed from other Vinayas), and had their own Abhidharma, consisting of nine volumes, none of which survive. These few examples of their literature that have come down to us from less than clear Chinese translations are all we have to go on for reconstructing their thought, especially since these Ch. texts suggest that their opponents drastically mischaracterized them (Richard refuses to believe they were mischaracterized unless he's given a proper motive, but he dismisses all motives as reductionisms, so we are left with the bare fact that what others say they are supposed to say is not what we find them saying in the little that has survived of what they wrote). We have no assurance that the Pali usage, which, as you indicated, seems to have entered their vocabulary rather late (Buddhaghosa is later than the texts we are discussing), was a primary version of which their interpretations were derivative rather than the other way around, i.e., that they put such ideas on the agenda, and what the Pali post-canonical materials preserve is a later Theravadin response. We don't know whose idea was primary and driving the engine. The idea that the sense intended by the pudgalavadins for the first prajnapti is simply dependence seems an overstretch. That is a related notion -- i.e., another way of describing the relation between the pudgala and the skandhas, ayatanas and dhatus -- but that "relation" is precisely what is at issue in the dispute between them and the Theravadins. That they could have used the same or similar terms to indicate *different* senses is entirely possible, as well. So I'm not even sure that were we able to know what the Indic original term was, we would be able to resolve the question of sense any more clearly than the indications we are already getting from the texts (though that would certainly help frame the speculations). Obviously, the issue partly depends on whether I am right to think that what we have are examples of these three kinds of praj?apti in association with ignorance. They could also apply in other cases without ignorance. Or, is there something in the Chinese text which rules this out ? As Stephan noted, ignorance (or, as one text calls it: "stupidity") is certainly a major issue contextualizing these discussions. That still does not mean that they were understanding such things in an identical manner to others using the same or similar terms and models. If we look at Vasumitra's description of the Sammitiya position (in Xuanzang's translation), he tends to support your suggestion: ???????????????????? "The Pudgala is neither the same nor different from the skandhas. It is a praj?apti (????) dependent on the skandhas, ?yatanas and dh?tus." The term ? yi, (in the phrase "yi skandhas, ayatanas, dhatus...") can mean "dependent on," or "basis" (??raya), or "on the basis of," etc. On the other hand, the list of four wholesome roots that Vasumitra attributes to them - k??nti, n?ma, nimitta, and laukik? agra-dharm?? - is not the same as what we usually find in the variants of other schools. (while Stephen is working on T1649, I will draft a full rendering of Xuanzang's tr. of Vasumitra's exposition of the Sammitiyas). We may solve some of this yet. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061204/4338d303/attachment.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 14:31:37 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 14:31:56 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan> <010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> Here is a translation of what Vasumitra says about the Vatsiputriyas. This has been translated before (though I don't have those on hand at the moment). Since it is Xuanzang's rendering, this is much easier to read, and the equivalents are much more reliable. Paramartha's translation of the same text (done about a century earlier) has additional portions, but since they are unclear and don't seem to correspond in an obvious manner to what is discussed in our long and short text passages, I will ignore that for now. It is terse, but gives some suggestions about what their abhidharma and marga was like, as well as their basic tenets. I have, however, translated the Chinese versions of the names of the different schools, as did Xuanzang. The section on the Vatsiputriyas in Vasumitra's "Tenets of the Different Schools", tr. from Xuanzang's Ch. version. ????????? The tenets that the V?ts?putr?ya schools held in common: ???????????????????? The Pudgala is neither the same as the skandhas nor different from the skandhas (?????). It is a praj?apti (????) dependent on the skandhas, ?yatanas and dh?tus. ???????????? Sa?sk?ras have a temporary duration, while some cease in an instant (k?a?ika). ????????????????????????????? Dharmas, if apart from the pudgala, cannot move on from a previous lifetime to a subsequent lifetime. It is on the basis of the pudgala that one can say there is transference (sa?kr?nti). ????????? Moreover, even non-Buddhists can attain the five ?ddhis. ????????? The five consciousnesses have no kle?as, and are not apart from kle?as. ??????????????????? If the bonds (sa?yojana) are eliminated by cultivation (bh?van?-m?rga) in the k?ma-dh?tu, one is called "free from desire." They aren't eliminated in dar?ana (-m?rga). ?????????????????? It is by [the four wholesome roots, viz.] k??nti, n?ma, nimitta, and laukik? agra-dharm?? (the highest meditative insight) that one can enter into the correct nature in which no kle?as arise. (niy?m?vakr?nti or samyaktva-niy?ma). ?????????????????? If entering niy?m?vakr?nti during the twelve mental moments, this is called "Going toward" (pratipanna?). ????????? If during the thirteenth mental (moment), this is called "abiding in the fruit." ????????? There many different opinions concerning such things. ???????????????????????????????????? Because of holding different interpretations of a single verse, this school branched off into four schools, which are Dharmottar?ya (Higher Dharma), Bhadray???yas (Lineage of the Honorables), Sa?mat?yas (Correct Measure), and the ????agirikas (Hidden in the Forests and Mountains). ????? The verse says: ???????????????????????? Already liberated, again one backslides / backsliding due to desire. Again returning / recovering peaceful joy and the place of happiness. / >From happiness going to perfect happiness. (T.49.2031.16c14-25) Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061204/118e5721/attachment-0001.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Dec 4 15:05:50 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon Dec 4 15:06:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? In-Reply-To: <005901c717c4$29b84700$dc0a7257@zen> References: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie> <4b1875e820b39e3fa65e7e16b16b2dbd@aucegypt.edu> <005901c717c4$29b84700$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <1165269950.5269.27.camel@rhayes-laptop> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 16:49 +0000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > > I'm afraid this may well remain an "unsolved mystery" [snip] but nowhere > > is the primary source given. Recent posts to the experts on both Buddha-L > > and H-Buddhism have also turned up nothing. > It is/was a ferquent and, apparently, favourite quote here by Richard > Hayes -- perhaps he can come out of lurk-mode and tell us whee he got it > from. I don't recall ever knowing that story, let alone quoting it, although it sounds like the sort of story I would quote. More to the point, it sounds like the sort of story I would fabricate and just SAY I was quoting. I do that sort of thing quite a lot. I really doubt very seriously that the provenience of the story is much earlier than the 1950s. It has all the earmarks of the "nobody here but us secular rationalistists" approach to Buddhism. Someone on another list says it appears in one of Conze's writings. Has anyone explored the possibility that Dan Lusthaus is the author of the story? I once heard him say "It's no wonder the Buddha didn't want to allow women into the sangha. The person who asked him was his step-mother. How many of you want your mom hanging around the zendo?" That ranks as just about the funniest wisecrack ever uttered by an American Buddhologist. The story Brad recited is also very funny. So I suspect the story had the same author as the wisecrack. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 4 15:25:51 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon Dec 4 15:30:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef98@csloxinfo.com> References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com> <3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef98@csloxinfo.com> Message-ID: Dear Ven. Dhammanando, I finally found the reference that was in the back of my mind. >As far as I know, your suggested correct form, "Vacchiputtaka", is >not found in any Pali texts at all. > >Best wishes, >Dhammanando Vacchiputtaka does in fact occur in the PTS edition of the Mohavicchedanii on p. 258, although it is not read in CSCD. Lance Cousins From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 23:35:09 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 23:35:23 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef98@csloxinfo.com> Message-ID: <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> Lance, Stephen, et al. Still on the question of whether the first prajnapti involves some form of upaadaana, and whether it primarily means "relative to," "dependent on," or "appropriates," the third pudgalavada text, T.32.1649, which Stephen has said he will tackle next, provides some evidence -- though it is conflicting. The name and identity of the translator of this text is unknown. It presents difficulties of its own (I'm curious to see how Stephen deals with them), but the most immediately obvious problems are: 1. It seems to be a very literal translation of an Indic original, as terse as the original apparently was. The original has numerous ellipses, assuming that an informed reader will provide the remainder of what is alluded to (from the cases I recognized, these seem to be Agama passages that, perhaps, became well known -- at least the ones I recognize are the better known ones. 2. In its literalism, it creates all sorts of syntactical ambiguities. Since syntax (word order, phrasing) serves for Chinese the same task as grammatical inflections do for Indic languages, unclear syntax can lead to serious ambiguity. As for the section on this third text, titled Sammitiya-nikaaya-"saastra, that discusses the first prajnapti, we find some interesting indications. 1. We now have another non-standard equivalent for prajnapti. This text uses shuo ?, which means "says," "teaches, lectures," "explains," etc. This reinforces the long version's use of jiaoshou (teaching device, heuristic) for prajnapti, while still retaining the sense of "saying, expression." In the passage under consideration, shuo ("says") appears to be used both in a technical sense as prajnapti, and its it more ordinary usage as "says" and "expressed as." 2. It names the first prajnapti yi shuo ren ???. Ren means a "person," and is used for pudgala. Shuo I just explained above. Yi is the same term I mentioned in a previous message, which can mean "depends on" or "basis for." 3. So, initially, this might support Lance's sense of an upaadaaya, etc., meaning "in relation to, dependent on." But once the explanation begins, the key phrase becomes ??? de se ren. Ren, again, is person (pudgala), se = ruupa, and de means to "obtain, get, attain." This supports the reading of upaadhi (or whichever derivative of upaadaana) as "appropriation." So which term could have both meanings? 4. This passage provides some additional examples of what is meant (elliptically), and they are framed as aagama quotes. One is: "The name "dependent prajnapti" is analogous to [the word "fuel" (upaadaana) being dependent on] fire." This would again reinforce that upaadaana (a pun for "appropriation" here; cf. Nagarjuna's ch. on Fire and Fuel in MMK) or some derivative or cognate that, at least in part, retains the sense of appropriation, is the underlying term here. 5. That Lance's dependent relation is not precluded, however, is reinforced by another example that comes a few sentences later: "As Buddha said to ??riputra, 'There is a person named ? (xiang: form, image, resemble, to imitate, pattern after, symbolize; elephant; Skt. gaja, hastin, n?ga) [who is] white, pure and agreeable. What is established from the mah?bh?tas is named "self." All of these are like the example of 'milk'." The term xiang is suggestive here. It could be, as Thich T.C. takes it, to be a translation of the name N?ga, or it could mean something like a person's name bears some resemblance, or is patterned after his appearance and demeanor (pure, white, agreeable). Then the following line stating that "self" is established on the basis of the four mah?bh?tas would follow suit. The example of "milk," however, is a strong indication of the kind of proof-texts the Sammitiyas drew on from the Agamas, since it points to the Po??ap?da Sutta of the Digha-Nikaya (or its Agama equivalent), which has an interesting discussion of different types of "selves" that Buddha permits one to speak of. The names of the types of selves (in Walshe's translation: "gross acquired self," "mind-made self," past acquired self," present acquired self, and " future acquired self") are reminiscent of our passages. More intriguing, Buddha's conversation partner in this sutta is named "Citta, son of the elephant-trainer," perhaps indicating how we should understand the xiang (as a metonymy for "son of the elephant-trainer"). The milk example is well known in Mahayana sutras as well (e.g., the Nirvana Sutra), and runs, in this Pali sutta, thus: "In just the same way, Citta, from the cow we get milk, from the milk curds, from the curds butter, from the butter ghee, and from the ghee cream of ghee. And when there is milk we don't speak of curds, of butter, of ghee or of cream of ghee, we speak of milkl when there are curds we don't speak of butter..." and so on. >From this analogy, Buddha continues: "So too, whenever the gross acquired self (o??riko attapa?il?bho) is present, we do not speak of the mind-made (manomayo attapa?il?bho) or formless acquired self (ar?po attapa?il?bho); whenever the mind-made acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or formless self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, we speak of the formless acquired self." But Buddha concludes this statement like, it would seem, a good pudgalavadin: "But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations [pa??atti=prajnapti] in common use in the world, which the Tathagata uses without misapprehending them." (Im? kho citta lokasama??? lokaniruttiyo lokavoh?r? lokapa??attiyo y?hi tath?gato voharati apar?masanti.) (Walshe's translation, my Pali interpolations) So the de (obtain, acquire) may involve some form of pa?il?bha (obtaining, receiving, taking up, acquisition, assumption, attainment). The milk example provides a way of talking about progressive purifying of something which is neither the same nor completely different from one stage to the next. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/529fd065/attachment.html From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 23:57:59 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Dec 4 23:58:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: [RISA-L] Buddhist Story: Source? References: <005301c7169a$0d906510$2930cece@charlie><4b1875e820b39e3fa65e7e16b16b2dbd@aucegypt.edu><005901c717c4$29b84700$dc0a7257@zen> <1165269950.5269.27.camel@rhayes-laptop> Message-ID: <00a201c7183a$b4a54bd0$4f339c04@Dan> > Has anyone explored the possibility that Dan Lusthaus is the author of > the story? I may have written it in a former life, but can't find my pudgala to ask him. Presently-appropriating Dan From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 5 00:35:05 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue Dec 5 00:35:34 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef9 8@csloxinfo.com> <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan/Stephen, >5. That Lance's dependent relation is not precluded, however, is >reinforced by another example that comes a few sentences later: > >"As Buddha said to ??riputra, 'There is a person named ?? (xiang: >form, image, resemble, to imitate, pattern after, symbolize; >elephant; Skt. gaja, hastin, n?ga) [who is] white, pure and >agreeable. What is established from the mah?bh?tas is named "self." >All of these are like the example of 'milk'." > >The term xiang is suggestive here. It could be, as Thich T.C. takes >it, to be a translation of the name N?ga, or it could mean something >like a person's name bears some resemblance, or is patterned after >his appearance and demeanor (pure, white, agreeable). Then the >following line stating that "self" is established on the basis of >the four mah?bh?tas would follow suit. > >The example of "milk," however, is a strong indication of the kind >of proof-texts the Sammitiyas drew on from the Agamas, since it >points to the Po??ap?da Sutta of the Digha-Nikaya (or its Agama >equivalent), which has an interesting discussion of different types >of "selves" that Buddha permits one to speak of. The names of the >types of selves (in Walshe's translation: "gross acquired self," >"mind-made self," past acquired self," present acquired self, and " >future acquired self") are reminiscent of our passages. More >intriguing, Buddha's conversation partner in this sutta is named >"Citta, son of the elephant-trainer," perhaps indicating how we >should understand the xiang (as a metonymy for "son of the >elephant-trainer"). The milk example is well known in Mahayana >sutras as well (e.g., the Nirvana Sutra), and runs, in this Pali >sutta, thus: > >"In just the same way, Citta, from the cow we get milk, from the >milk curds, from the curds butter, from the butter ghee, and from >the ghee cream of ghee. And when there is milk we don't speak of >curds, of butter, of ghee or of cream of ghee, we speak of milkl >when there are curds we don't speak of butter..." and so on. From the unpublished Ms of the Diirghaagama (very preliminary transcript by Somdev Vasudeva and myself with obvious errors - either ours or of the scribe): Tadyatha Hasti"sayyaatiputra go k.siira.m k.siiro dadhir dadhnor navaniita.m. Yasmi.m samaye k.siira.m bhavati, na tasmi.m samaye dadhi bhavati, na dadhy upaiti, na dadhitve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati, na navaniita.m bhavati na navaniitam upaiti, na navaniitatve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati, k.siiram eva tasmi.m samaye bhavati, k.siiram upaiti, k.siiratve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati. >From this analogy, Buddha continues: > >"So too, whenever the gross acquired self (o??riko attapa?il?bho) is >present, we do not speak of the mind-made (manomayo attapa?il?bho) >or formless acquired self (ar?po attapa?il?bho); whenever the >mind-made acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or >formless self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do >not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, >we speak of the formless acquired self." Yasmi.m samaye puru.sasyaaruupii sa.mj?aamaya aatmaa bhavati, naasya tasmi.m samaye ruupii audaarika"s caaturmahaabhuu{[tika]} [aa]tmaa bhavati, naatmaam upaiti, naatmatve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati, naapi ruupii manomayo aatmaa bhavati, naatmaa upaiti, naatmatve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati | aruupy evaasya tasmi.m samaye sa.mj?aapaya aatyaa {[bhava]}ti, aatmaam upaiti, aatmatve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati > But Buddha concludes this statement like, it would seem, a good pudgalavadin: > >"But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, >designations [pa??atti=prajnapti] in common use in the world, which >the Tathagata uses without misapprehending them." (Im? kho citta >lokasama??? lokaniruttiyo lokavoh?r? lokapa??attiyo y?hi tath?gato >voharati apar?masanti.) >(Walshe's translation, my Pali interpolations) Evam eva Hasti"sayyaatiputra ye kecid aatmeti vaa sa.mjaanate satva iti vaa jiiva iti vaa ja.mtur iti vaa po.sa iti vaa pudgala iti vaa [m] [8] iti vaa yathaa yathaiva jana sa.mjaaniite na tathaa tathaa sthaama"sa.h paraam.r"syaabhinivi"syaanuvyavahara.mti; idam eva satya.m; moham anyad iti. Api tv anuvyavaharanti ~ yaavad evaarthasya khyaapanaartham i ? ? ? .m [5] lokasa.mj?aa lokamataani lokaniruktayo lokavyavahaaraa yair yaanuvyavahara.mto na ki.mcil loka upaadadate. Anupaadadaanaa [423V] na paritasyanti. no praj?apti ! > So the de (obtain, acquire) may involve some form of pa?il?bha >(obtaining, receiving, taking up, acquisition, assumption, >attainment). The milk example provides a way of talking about >progressive purifying of something which is neither the same nor >completely different from one stage to the next. So the Sanskrit gives a slightly different perspective. By the way, Dan, what font are you using ? Somertimes your diacritics come through and sometimes they don't. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/97eca4db/attachment.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 00:51:53 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Dec 5 00:52:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef98@csloxinfo.com> <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <00ef01c71842$3bf15b90$4f339c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Re: PudgalavadaLance, Thanks for a peek at the unpublished DA. Very interesting. So the Sanskrit gives a slightly different perspective. Indeed. By the way, Dan, what font are you using ? Somertimes your diacritics come through and sometimes they don't. I wonder if it's a PC (me) vs Mac (you) problem, or something with unicode incompatibilities. I sometimes use Arial Unicode MS (Micro$oft's unicode font that includes diacriticals, East Asian characters, etc.), sometimes just a regular font, like Arial, and sometimes Times Ext Roman. Which of these works on your end: 1. o??riko attapa?il?bho (Ariel Unicode MS) 2.o??riko attapa?il?bho (Times Ext Roman) 3. o??riko attapa?il?bho (Ariel) I'll try to stick with what works for you in the future. If others are having similar problems, let me know, and maybe we can find some encoding format that works for everybody. One thing you can try if things look like gibberish is to set your email program to View that message as utf-8. That might solve things. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/0d5c5947/attachment.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 5 01:44:09 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue Dec 5 01:45:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef9 8@csloxinfo.com> <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan/Stephen, >4. This passage provides some additional examples of what is meant >(elliptically), and they are framed as aagama quotes. One is: > >"The name "dependent prajnapti" is analogous to [the word "fuel" >(upaadaana) being dependent on] fire." Vasubandhu (digital version) has e.g.: yathendhanam upaadaayaagni? praj?apyate eva.m skandhaan upaadaaya pudgala.h iti / So we should also consider that the Chinese may sometimes render the verb praj?apyate rather than the noun praj?apti ? >This would again reinforce that upaadaana (a pun for "appropriation" >here; cf. Nagarjuna's ch. on Fire and Fuel in MMK) or some >derivative or cognate that, at least in part, retains the sense of >appropriation, is the underlying term here. Naagaarjuna continually plays on the meaning of upaadaaya and is quite willing to take it in both senses as suits him. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/f6f3e493/attachment.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 5 02:30:03 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:30:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada In-Reply-To: <00ef01c71842$3bf15b90$4f339c04@Dan> References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef9 8@csloxinfo.com> <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> <00ef01c71842$3bf15b90$4f339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, >By the way, Dan, what font are you using ? Somertimes your >diacritics come through and sometimes they don't. > > I wonder if it's a PC (me) vs Mac (you) problem, or something with >unicode incompatibilities. I think it is Eudora on my Mac.Unfortunately Eudora has only limited Unicode capability. > I sometimes use Arial Unicode MS (Micro$oft's unicode font that >includes diacriticals, East Asian characters, etc.), sometimes just >a regular font, like Arial, and sometimes Times Ext Roman. > >Which of these works on your end: > >1. o??riko attapa?il?bho (Ariel Unicode MS) > >2.o??riko attapa?il?bho (Times Ext Roman) > >3. o??riko attapa?il?bho (Ariel) All three display long 'a', but it is clearer in Ariel. None of the three display '.l' or '.t' correctly. > >I'll try to stick with what works for you in the future. If others >are having similar problems, let me know, and maybe we can find some >encoding format that works for everybody. > >One thing you can try if things look like gibberish is to set your >email program to View that message as utf-8. That might solve things. Unfortunately, there is no such option. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/3ec805bc/attachment.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 02:36:37 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:36:47 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef98@csloxinfo.com> <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <013a01c71850$dd656ad0$4f339c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Re: PudgalavadaLance/Stephen, Vasubandhu (digital version) has e.g.: yathendhanam upaadaayaagni? praj?apyate eva.m skandhaan upaadaaya pudgala.h iti / So we should also consider that the Chinese may sometimes render the verb praj?apyate rather than the noun praj?apti ? Yes, good point. And there are also plenty of instances of the nominal form: Pradhan, pp. 461.20-462.2 ?dhy?tmik?nup?tt?nvarttam?n?n skandh?nup?d?ya pudgala? praj?apyate / [...] yadyayamarhta? skandh?n?? lak?yate te?veva pudgalapraj?apti? pr?pnoti / [...] yath? r?p?d?n?lamvya te?veva k??rapraj?apti? / [...] ath?yamartha? skandh?n prat?yeti / [...] skandh?n?? pudgalapraj?aptik?ra?atv?t / sa eva do?a? / na sa eva? praj?apyate / katha? tarhi yathendhanamup?d?y?gni? / katha? cendhanamup?d?y?gni? praj?apyate / na hi vinendhanen?gni? praj?apyate na c?nya indhan?dagni? ?akyate praj?apayitu? n?pyananya? / Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/20793756/attachment.html From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 03:03:53 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Dec 5 03:04:19 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada References: <200611301025.kAUAPQpU028787@ns1.swcp.com><3d2226ed4055b9cd0f9536a060f3ef98@csloxinfo.com> <008001c71837$83d1c860$4f339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <016401c71854$b3eea730$4f339c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavadaoops. Some typos: should be: yadyayamartha? skandh?n?? lak?yate te?veva pudgalapraj?apti? pr?pnoti / yath? r?p?d?n?lambya te?veva k??rapraj?apti? / Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/9e006744/attachment-0001.htm From jkirk at spro.net Tue Dec 5 08:42:15 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Dec 5 08:42:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: BAU or Buddha's life ... which came first? Message-ID: <000a01c71883$f0eaf1a0$2930cece@charlie> Since our Buddhologers are so busy with pudgalavada, perhaps one among you might be sufficently energized to consider a reply to this query from another list, which interests me as well (on this list, and might interest a few others folks). Do y'all agree with Goto, Toshifumi? Thanks Joanna =========================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan E.M. Houben" To: Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:52 PM Subject: Re: BAU or Buddha's life ... which came first? Dear Luis, Thanks, this is an important article. The author apperently accepts, without questioning, the classical view that the Vedic Upanisads including the BAU are (just) before the life and teaching of the Buddha. See for instance in the concluding paragraph "The conceptions of life and world in early Buddhism have thus inherited the reflections on birth and death found in the old Upanisads, and further explicated them." Jan ========================== --- Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Dear Jan, > > This article may be of some help: > > Goto, Toshifumi. 2005. Yaj?avalkya's > Characterization of the Atman and the Four > Kinds > of Suffering in Early Buddhism. Electronic > Journal of Vedic Studies 12, no. 2: 71-85. > Online at: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/. > > Luis > ================================== > At 09:15 AM 12/4/2006, you wrote: > >Dear All, > >One of the many problems of dating texts and > >events in Indian cultural history concerns the > >relative dates of the Brhad-Aranyaka-Upanisad > and the life of the Buddha. The 'traditional' > view, starting from estimates by Max M?ller and > others,>would place the old Vedic Upanisads, including > >BAU, before the Buddha. Some have argued, > >however, that the BAU was composed(finalized?) > >after the Buddha (and after Panini). I remember > >that Johannes Bronkhorst (The two traditions > of meditation) and Richard Gombrich have written > on this (in the 80s-90s). What are the latest > >contributions on this topic in which a student > of mine is interested? > >Thanks, > >Jan Houben > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 12/4/2006 7:18 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/71526d00/attachment.html From bcarral at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 06:06:14 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Tue Dec 5 10:13:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist family life Message-ID: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> Dear Buddha-L denizens, Do you know some traditional sutra or commentary (besides the _Sigalovada Sutta_) dealing with the Buddhist family life? I'm particularly interest in East Asian sources (in English translation). Do you know some good English book dealing with Buddhist family life? I would also like to understand how the Chinese Confucian-family-oriented sangha transformed Indian monastic-oriented Buddhist life and ideals (if so). Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 12:42:56 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Dec 5 12:43:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist family life References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> >Do you know > some good English book dealing with Buddhist family > life? I would also like to understand how the Chinese > Confucian-family-oriented sangha transformed Indian > monastic-oriented Buddhist life and ideals (if so). > Benito Carral Try Alan Cole's __Mothers and Sons in Chinese Buddhism_. Dan Lusthaus From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 5 13:11:14 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue Dec 5 13:11:49 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra In-Reply-To: <019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan> <010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan> <019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, I do have to hand Bareauau's French version which gives his rendering of the other two Chinese and the Tibetan translation. So I will raise one or two points based on that. >Here is a translation of what Vasumitra says about the >Vatsiputriyas. This has been translated before (though I don't have >those on hand at the moment). Since it is Xuanzang's rendering, this >is much easier to read, and the equivalents are much more reliable. >Paramartha's translation of the same text (done about a century >earlier) has additional portions, but since they are unclear and >don't seem to correspond in an obvious manner to what is discussed >in our long and short text passages, I will ignore that for now. It >is terse, but gives some suggestions about what their abhidharma and >marga was like, as well as their basic tenets. I have, however, >translated the Chinese versions of the names of the different >schools, as did Xuanzang. > >The section on the Vatsiputriyas in Vasumitra's "Tenets of the >Different Schools", tr. from Xuanzang's Ch. version. > >?L? ?q???{?@???`?B >The tenets that the V?ts?putr?ya schools held in common: > >???????????????]???]?B???]?|?E???{?????B >The Pudgala is neither the same as the skandhas nor different from >the skandhas (?????]???]). It is a praj?apti (???{????) dependent on >the skandhas, ?yatanas and dh?tus. Paramaartha is cited as adding a set of three kinds of praj?apti at this point: 1. celle qui comprend (sam.g.rh.naati) tout; 2. celle qui comprend une partie; 3. celle qui comprend le salut par la cessation. The last looks like the third in our previous list. Note that Paramaartha came from the area where the Pudgalavaadins were strong. > ???s?L?b?Z?B???L?b?????B >Sa?sk?ras have a temporary duration, while some cease in an instant (k?a?ika). Bareau takes this as: All sa.mskaaras have a momentary duration and are instantly destroyed (k.sa.nikaniruddha). > ???@?????????????B???n?O???z???????B???????????????L???z?B >Dharmas, if apart from the pudgala, cannot move on from a previous >lifetime to a subsequent lifetime. It is on the basis of the pudgala >that one can say there is transference (sa?kr?nti). Paramaartha is cited as adding: 'materiality excepted'. > ???L?O???\????? ?B >Moreover, even non-Buddhists can attain the five ?ddhis. as in Theravaada > ?????????????????B >The five consciousnesses have no kle?as, and are not apart from kle?as. Bareau has viraaga and aviraaga which seems less likely. In any case it must be part of an abhidhamma analysis. Compare Vibh 319 in Pali where the five are given as asa.mkili.t.tha-sankilesika i.e. not defiled but subject to defilement. > ???-?~?E?C???-???B???????~?B???????-?B >If the bonds (sa?yojana) are eliminated by cultivation >(bh?van?-m?rga) in the k?ma-dh?tu, one is called "free from desire." >They aren't eliminated in dar?ana (-m?rga). Bareau understands: abandoning the sa.myojana which are abandoned by bhaavanaa in the kaamadhaatu > ???E?????B???????@???\?????????????B >It is by [the four wholesome roots, viz.] k??nti, n?ma, nimitta, and >laukik? agra-dharm?? (the highest meditative insight) that one can >enter into the correct nature in which no kle?as arise. >(niy?m?vakr?nti or samyaktva-niy?ma). Bareau has aakaara instead of nimitta. This looks like a version of the nirvedhabhaagiya. A sort of cross between the Yogaacaarin and the Vaibhaa.sika versions ? Does Paramaartha omit this ? > ?????????????????B?\???S?{?????s???B >If entering niy?m?vakr?nti during the twelve mental moments, this is >called "Going toward" (pratipanna?). > >???\?O?S?????Z? ?B >If during the thirteenth mental (moment), this is called "abiding in >the fruit." Paramaartha adds some 13 further theses. This must be based on his own knowledge. It is not in any of the other three translations. > ?L?@?*????? ? ?`?B >There many different opinions concerning such things. This sentence is missing in the oldest Chinese and the Tibetan trsls. Perhaps this too is an addition by Paramaartha, retained by Hs?an-tsang. > ????????? ?`?s???B?n?????????o?l???B???@?????B???????B??? ???B???-?R???B >Because of holding different interpretations of a single verse, this >school branched off into four schools, which are Dharmottar?ya >(Higher Dharma), Bhadray???yas (Lineage of the Honorables), >Sa?mat?yas (Correct Measure), and the ????agirikas (Hidden in the >Forests and Mountains). The last school seems unknown in inscriptions. > ?????????B >The verse says: > >???????X???B???R?????"?B?l?????????B?????s?????B >Already liberated, again one backslides / >backsliding due to desire. Again returning / >recovering peaceful joy and the place of happiness. / >From happiness going to perfect happiness. >(T.49.2031.16c14-25) There are some differences here, but it's fairly cryptic anyway. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061205/0953f0b2/attachment.html From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 11:34:34 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 6 11:34:47 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - VasumitraLance, Thanks for the comparison with Paramartha cum Bareau. I am now preparing a full translation of the Paramartha version (you can compare that with Bareau's rendering, which I'm sure I have but can't locate at the moment). Paramartha was from Ujjain, which likely had a significant pudgalavada presence, as you mention. This raises -- as I tried to suggest awhile back -- the question of pudgalavada influence on other Buddhists. One of the things Paramartha is (in-)famous for is the idea of a ninth "Pure" consciousness, above the standard eight consciousnesses of Yogacara. This ninth quasi-vedantic ninth consciousness may have entered his thinking through pudgalavada influence (was Ujjain breeding a sort of Yogacara-Sammitiya hybrid, using tathagatagarbha thought as a bridge?). Similarly, Huiyuan, who was associated with the translations of the long and short texts we have been discussing, and is best known for his exchange of letters with Kumarajiva when the latter arrived in China with Madhyamakan ideas and for supposingly starting the White Lotus Society which is taken by Pure Land Buddhists as the first Pure Land association in China (though some scholars have been questioning that in recent decades), is also somewhat infamous for insisting on the idea of an "immortal spirit," which, we may now speculate, was not simply an aberration in the thinking of the so-called early Prajna Schools in China, but may also have derived from pudgalavada input. The impact of pudgalavada on the development of Buddhism -- both in India and China -- remains an unwritten story. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/f5075364/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Wed Dec 6 12:44:09 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Dec 6 12:44:08 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Potential drowning by a new dam of Buddhist rock carvings in Pakistan Message-ID: <008401c7196e$e6156fd0$2930cece@charlie> http://www.dawn.com/2006/12/05/nat11.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 14:37:44 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:38:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra-2a References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> <006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <010e01c7197e$c52c3190$6d369c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra(First attempt to post was rejected due to size. I've split it into 2 messages) Here is a translation of Paramartha's version of the Vatsiputriya section of Vasumitra's treatise. In deference to Lance, I have changed all diacriticals into ASCII equivalents. I have annotated it, to point out some of the textual/conceptual issues. Where Paramartha and Xuanzang differ, Xuanzang would appear to be offering the better reading. How reliable Paramartha's additional section(s) are is uncertain. Paramaartha's version (T.49.2033.21c21-22a15) These are the basic opinions held by the Vaatsiiputriiya: [Both Paramaartha and Xuanzang translate, rather than transliterate, this school's name. Paramaartha's rendering means something like "Son Able to Abide" while Xuanzang's means "Son of a Heifer" (? du means a calf).] The person (= pudgala) is not the same as the five skandhas. Nor is the person different from the five skandhas, since it collects skandhas, dhatus, aayatanas. They establish the person, etc. to be a praj?apti (jiaming). There are three types of praj?apti. 1. Everything (is) praj?apti category. 2. One part is praj?apti category. 3. Cessation and 'passing over' praj?apti category. [The tricky word, which occurred in the previous line ("since it _she_ skandhas, dhaatus, and aayatanas") and here appears after each of the numbers, is she, which, as a verb would mean "collected into," but is frequently used in Buddhist literature of this sort simply to indicate that this is a "category." It can make sense either way. As "category," a "smoother" translation might read: 1. The category of "everything is praj?apti." 2. The category of "one-part is praj?apti." 3. The category of "cessation and 'passing over' is praj?apti."I am taking it in the latter sense. Bareau apparently took in the former sense, as "collected." If, as may be the case, Paramaartha is trying to imply the sense of "appropriation" ? our upaadaana, upaadhi, etc., term ? by using _she_, then the three praj?aptis might be rendered: 1. The praj?apti of collecting (i.e., appropriating) everything; 2. the praj?apti of collecting one part; 3. the praj?apti of 'collecting' cessation and 'passing over.'] All sa.msk.rta dharmas are momentary, ceasing momentarily. [Paramaartha seems to be reading the term here as sa.msk.rta-dharmas, while Xuanzang is reading it as sa.mskaara. The pudgalavada literature suggests that Xuanzang's reading is probably correct.] Apart from ruupa, there is not a single dharma that follows from this life to the next life. It is the person that can be said to have transposed (yi, anugacchati). [This is illogical, since ruupa doesn't "transpose" or "transmit" from one life to another. The new life acquires a new rupic bundle. One's ruupa even changes each moment during a single life. Paramaartha may have been thinking of some notion of the continuity of the body during a single life as an identity marker, contrasting it with sa.msk.rta dharmas, but ruupa is also a sa.msk.rta dharma. He seems to want to suggest that mental events are momentary, and thus lack continuity, while physical continuity does occur. But since the context here is across lives, not the continuity of a single life, his editorialization is missplaced.] Non-Buddhists (may) have the five .rddhis. A person correctly giving rise to the five consciousness, neither has desire nor is apart from desire. The bonds (sa.myojana) associated with the kaama-dhaatu are negated through the bhaavanaa-maarga. If a person is able to eliminate (them), then he attains "elimination of desire." If they are negated through the dar'sana-maarga in the kaama-dhaatu, then it is not as good as that. K.saanti, naama, nimitta, and laukikaa agra-dharmaa.h, these four stages are called correct meditation. [The third item, in Chinese, is xiang, an infamously multi-semantic term, which can be used to render lak.sa?a, aakaara, nimitta, li'nga, etc. In some texts, even with a relatively clear context, it can sometimes be difficult to decide which meaning is intended (and Chinese commentators frequently guess wrong). In similar contexts Thich T.C., apparently like Bareau, also Sanskritizes xiang as aakaara, but, I suspect the intended term is nimitta, since one finds similar, but not identical lists, in other texts where nimitta is the word being used. We are not given enough information here about how this list of four wholesome practices was understood by the Vaatsiiputriiyas to make a truly informed guess.] If a person has already entered correct meditation within the twelve mental (moments), this is called approaching srota-aapanna (?). [The Taisho has ?????? xu lue duo a ban na, which, if one replaces the first two characters with?? so lu, would be identical to ?????? su lu duo a ban na, a common transliteration of srota-aapanna. Justification for substituting the xu for su as the first character is based on ???? xu tuo ban na, which is another known transliteration for srota-aapanna. The Foguang dictionary, p.5360a, also gives Paramaartha's version here as an alternate transliteration of srota-aapanna. Many translators into Chinese devised their own transliterative compounds, partially to reflect changes over time, or regional dialect differences in pronunciation. Paramaartha's transliteration only occurs one other time in the Taish?, and that is also in this text, during the description of the Sarvaastivaadins. In that place, Xuanzang's text has the identical term he himself uses here, ?? xingxiang, lit. "going toward," or "beginning to walk [the path]."] Arriving at the thirteenth mental (moment) is called srota-aapanna. [Xuanzang called this "abiding in the fruit." (continued in next message) Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/8d49642c/attachment.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 14:39:45 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:40:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> <006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra(continuation of Paramartha's version of the Vasumitra text on Pudgalavada) [The following appears only in Paramaartha's version] All sentient beings have two types of faults: 1. Mental faults. 2. Thing (vastu) faults. Life and Death (i.e., sa.msaara) has two major causes: 1. Kle'sas, 2. Karma. Two types of dharmas are the major causes of liberation, i.e., vipa'syanaa (biboshena) and 'samatha (shemota). If the adhipati-pratyaya (contributing condition) of shame (hrii) is not based on oneself (i.e., one dissimulates "shame" during praatimok.sa, etc.), then the correct Dharma (saddharma) does not belong to this person. There are two types of root kle'sas always operating is all sentient beings, i.e., ignorance and craving for existence (bhava-t.r.s.naa). There are seven types of pure abodes. Buddha's cognition (j?aana ?) is not associated (viprayukta?) with morality ('siila), etc. As to cognitive-objects (vi.saya), by means of correctly discerning their aalambanas, one can fully understand all dharmas. [This is a bit unclear, and the Taisho records some variants in this passage, suggesting others found it unclear as well. As it stands, it would seem to be saying something like: Know how to cognize something properly, and one can fully cognize everything. Whether this is a claim to omniscience (it says "all dharmas," not "all knowing") or more modestly indicating a capacity (neng) to understand things as they are, is uncertain, though, given its wording, I would tend to read it in the latter way.] If one takes cessation to be collected/categorized with them, then generally there are six types (?). [Is this referring to the list of six types of arhats? Or does this passage mean something like: If you take the category of praj?apti-of-cessation to have a pudgala, then there are six types of beings (i.e., the five gatis plus the "ceased" pudgala)"?] There is no entry into correct meditation in the ruupa- and aaruupya-dhaatus. Bodhisattvas are always born in the middle (?). If having produced the extinguishing cognition (k.saya-j?aana) and the non-arising cognition (anutpaadaa-j?aana), such attainment is called "Becoming Buddha" (or: by such attainment one is considered a Buddha). There are three meanings/purposes (artha) to what the Tathaagata says in the sutras: 1. Disclosing the faults of Life-and-death (sa.msaara); 2. disclosing the qualities (gu.nas) of liberation; 3. nothing disclosed (?) [Paramartha's additions end] The Vaatsiiputriiya school holds to these basic ideas. Because of a single verse, this school divided, establishing four schools, which are Dharmottara, Bhadrayaa.niiyas (lit. "Vehicle of the Honorables"), Sa.mmitiiyas (lit. "Disciples of Correct Measure"), and .Saa.n.dagirikas (lit. "Abiding in Hidden Forests"). The verse says: Having already attained liberation, [one] again backslides and falls. [One] falls due to lust and attachment and returns [to the path]. Already reaching the place of peace, he wanders in the agreeable. >From enjoyable activity, [one] reaches the locus of bliss. [?? lexing, which Xuanzang also uses here, though in Xuanzang's version it appeared that the xing was a verb meaning "to go," as a compound means "The events occurring after Siddhaartha abandoned his six years of ascetic practice, bathed in the Naira?jaana river ????, ate rice and yogurt, sat under the bodhi tree, and entered into deep meditation." (Muller CJK Buddhist Online Dictionary). It has a secondary meaning: "An enjoyable life. (Skt. sukha-vihaara)." I should probably also revise my translation of Xuanzang to reflect this.] Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/8279e1f4/attachment-0001.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 14:57:08 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 6 14:57:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - VasumitraLance, Bareau takes this as: All sa.mskaaras have a momentary duration and are instantly destroyed (k.sa.nikaniruddha). That's how Paramartha reads. Moreover, even non-Buddhists can attain the five ?ddhis. as in Theravaada This seems to have been a bone of contention at that time, since Vasumitra, in his descriptions of some other schools, notes that they DON'T hold such a view, and insist the rddhis are purely within the domain of Buddhists. The five consciousnesses have no kle?as, and are not apart from kle?as. Bareau has viraaga and aviraaga which seems less likely. In any case it must be part of an abhidhamma analysis. Compare Vibh 319 in Pali where the five are given as asa.mkili.t.tha-sankilesika i.e. not defiled but subject to defilement. He is following Paramartha. Xuanzang's reading obviously is more in line with the Pali. It is by [the four wholesome roots, viz.] k??nti, n?ma, nimitta, and laukik? agra-dharm?? (the highest meditative insight) that one can enter into the correct nature in which no kle?as arise. (niy?m?vakr?nti or samyaktva-niy?ma). This looks like a version of the nirvedhabhaagiya. A sort of cross between the Yogaacaarin and the Vaibhaa.sika versions ? Does Paramaartha omit this ? No. His vocabulary is just not as precise: X: It is by [the four wholesome roots, viz.] k??nti, n?ma, nimitta, and laukik? agra-dharm?? (the highest meditative insight) that one can enter into the correct nature in which no kle?as arise. (niy?m?vakr?nti or samyaktva-niy?ma). P: K??nti, n?ma, nimitta, and laukik? agra-dharm??, these four stages are called correct meditation. X: If entering niy?m?vakr?nti during the twelve mental moments, this is called "Going toward" (pratipanna?). P: If a person has already entered correct meditation within the twelve mental (moments), this is called approaching srota-?panna. ???agirikas (Hidden in the Forests and Mountains). The last school seems unknown in inscriptions. .Saa'n.dagirikas (rendered Abiding in Hidden Forests by Paramartha) would indicate this school consisted of hermits, who would have had little use for the pomp and ceremony involved in constructing steles and inscriptions. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/1aa27201/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Wed Dec 6 15:39:22 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:39:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] textual linearity vs fluidity in dialogue Message-ID: <004201c71987$601ef770$2930cece@charlie> Since I posted a query asking if anyone thought the Brihad.A.Upanishad was earlier or later than the Buddha's dates, nobody bothered to reply, so I take the liberty of reposting a comment from another list (that some of you are on as well) which not only answers my query indirectly, but also makes a sage point that seems applicable to the discussion about pudgalavada texts as well: "In a similar vein, I note that my article on the Chaandyoga-U., "Indra's search for the self" (reprinted in my book _Reason's Traces_) suggests -- though I did not state this as robustly as I now think I should have -- that the final redaction of that "early" Upani.sad was also post-Buddha. It seems to me that the 19th cent. model -- one text or tradition coming after another in a linear series -- has to be definitively abandoned in favor of a more fluid conception in which texts and traditions evolved in dialogue with one another and arrived at their "finished" forms in processes spanning centuries. Certainly, works like the BAU and the ChU seem better understood in this way. Matthew Kapstein Chicago and Paris" (End re-post) Joanna From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 6 15:28:50 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:57:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: BAU or Buddha's life ... which came first? In-Reply-To: <000a01c71883$f0eaf1a0$2930cece@charlie> References: <000a01c71883$f0eaf1a0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Joanna, I don't think anyone wants to take this on - it's just too difficult. In short, 1. if the Majjhima discourses (or rather some of them) are something close to the actual words of the Buddha and you accept that they are critiquing certain of the earliest Upani.sads, then the oldest two or four Upani.sads are contemporary with or earlier than the Buddha. 2. If you think the Majjhima discourses (or the relevant passages in them), took something like their present form some time after the life of the `Buddha or you don't think they critique the Upani.sads, then the Upani.sads could have developed after the time of the Buddha. 3. The Upani.sads were originally dated on the basis of the dates of the Buddha and Mahaaviira. That would seem to imply that they should be later now that most Buddhologists accept a later date for the Buddha. I am not sure how far they can be dated on the internal evidence of brahmanical literature alone. Lance >Since our Buddhologers are so busy with pudgalavada, >perhaps one among you might be sufficently energized >to consider a reply to this query from another list, >which interests me as well (on this list, and might >interest a few others folks). > >Do y'all agree with Goto, Toshifumi? > >Thanks >Joanna >=========================== From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 6 15:42:16 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:57:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra-2a In-Reply-To: <010e01c7197e$c52c3190$6d369c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> <006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> <010e01c7197e$c52c3190$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, >Paramaartha's version (T.49.2033.21c21-22a15) > >These are the basic opinions held by the Vaatsiiputriiya: >[Both Paramaartha and Xuanzang translate, rather than transliterate, >this school's name. Paramaartha's rendering means something like >"Son Able to Abide" while Xuanzang's means "Son of a Heifer" (? du >means a calf).] A Prakrit form like Vaccha-, interpreted as deriving from vatsyati ? >They establish the person, etc. to be a praj?apti (jiaming). There >are three types of praj?apti. 1. Everything (is) praj?apti category. >2. One part is praj?apti category. 3. Cessation and 'passing over' >praj?apti category. >[The tricky word, which occurred in the previous line ("since it >_she_ skandhas, dhaatus, and aayatanas") and here appears after each >of the numbers, is she, which, as a verb would mean "collected >into," but is frequently used in Buddhist literature of this sort >simply to indicate that this is a "category." It can make sense >either way. As "category," a "smoother" translation might read: 1. >The category of "everything is praj?apti." 2. The category of >"one-part is praj?apti." 3. The category of "cessation and 'passing >over' is praj?apti."I am taking it in the latter sense. Bareau >apparently took in the former sense, as "collected." If, as may be >the case, Paramaartha is trying to imply the sense of >"appropriation" - our upaadaana, upaadhi, etc., term - by using >_she_, then the three praj?aptis might be rendered: 1. The praj?apti >of collecting (i.e., appropriating) everything; 2. the praj?apti of >collecting one part; 3. the praj?apti of 'collecting' cessation and >'passing over.'] eka"se.sanaya and ekade"sanaya ? >Apart from ruupa, there is not a single dharma that follows from >this life to the next life. It is the person that can be said to >have transposed (yi, anugacchati). >[This is illogical, since ruupa doesn't "transpose" or "transmit" >from one life to another. The new life acquires a new rupic bundle. >One's ruupa even changes each moment during a single life. >Paramaartha may have been thinking of some notion of the continuity >of the body during a single life as an identity marker, contrasting >it with sa.msk.rta dharmas, but ruupa is also a sa.msk.rta dharma. >He seems to want to suggest that mental events are momentary, and >thus lack continuity, while physical continuity does occur. But >since the context here is across lives, not the continuity of a >single life, his editorialization is missplaced.] I suggested in my article mentioned before that the Pudgalavaadins may have had something to do with the development of antaraabhava theories. If so, they may have believed that subtle materiality carries through into the antaraabhava and beyond. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/8631da79/attachment.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 6 15:50:39 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:57:12 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b In-Reply-To: <012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> <006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> <012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, >All sentient beings have two types of faults: 1. Mental faults. 2. >Thing (vastu) faults. avij?apti ? >Bodhisattvas are always born in the middle (?). Madhyade"sa i.e. like Buddhas ? >[???s lexing, which Xuanzang also uses here, though in Xuanzang's >version it appeared that the xing was a verb meaning "to go," as a >compound means "The events occurring after Siddhaartha abandoned his >six years of ascetic practice, bathed in the Naira?jaana river >???A?W??, ate rice and yogurt, sat under the bodhi tree, and entered >into deep meditation." (Muller CJK Buddhist Online Dictionary). d.r.s.tadharmasukhavihaara ? Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/65181b0f/attachment-0001.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 6 15:55:04 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Dec 6 15:57:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra In-Reply-To: <015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> <015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, >???agirikas (Hidden in the Forests and Mountains). > >The last school seems unknown in inscriptions. > > .Saa'n.dagirikas (rendered Abiding in Hidden Forests by Paramartha) >would indicate this school consisted of hermits, who would have had >little use for the pomp and ceremony involved in constructing steles >and inscriptions. I don't think .Sa.n.dagirika can have this kind of meaning, although Paramaartha is giving exactly the kind of interpretation you would get in a commentary. Rather, .Sa.n.dagiri will be the name of a monastery. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/b839b83d/attachment.htm From jkirk at spro.net Wed Dec 6 16:58:49 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Dec 6 16:58:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: BAU or Buddha's life ... which came first? References: <000a01c71883$f0eaf1a0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <000c01c71992$79b3e1e0$2930cece@charlie> Thanks Lance, I also heard off list that most scholars have never really settled this issue to everyone's agreement. But I learned more about the issue from your reply. Joanna ============ > Joanna, > > I don't think anyone wants to take this on - it's just too difficult. > > In short, > 1. if the Majjhima discourses (or rather some of them) are something close > to the actual words of the Buddha and you accept that they are critiquing > certain of the earliest Upani.sads, then the oldest two or four Upani.sads > are contemporary with or earlier than the Buddha. > > 2. If you think the Majjhima discourses (or the relevant passages in > them), took something like their present form some time after the life of > the `Buddha or you don't think they critique the Upani.sads, then the > Upani.sads could have developed after the time of the Buddha. > > 3. The Upani.sads were originally dated on the basis of the dates of the > Buddha and Mahaaviira. That would seem to imply that they should be later > now that most Buddhologists accept a later date for the Buddha. I am not > sure how far they can be dated on the internal evidence of brahmanical > literature alone. > > Lance > >>Since our Buddhologers are so busy with pudgalavada, >>perhaps one among you might be sufficently energized >>to consider a reply to this query from another list, >>which interests me as well (on this list, and might >>interest a few others folks). >> >>Do y'all agree with Goto, Toshifumi? >> >>Thanks >>Joanna >>=========================== > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/571 - Release Date: 12/5/2006 > 11:50 AM > > From jkirk at spro.net Wed Dec 6 17:58:33 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Dec 6 17:58:29 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] news about dating the Afghan Bamian Buddhas Message-ID: <000e01c7199a$d1d602b0$2930cece@charlie> http://tinyurl.com/ydoon3 >From Ruins of Afghan Buddhas, a History Grows "...carbon dating of fragments of the plaster surface of the Buddhas was able to pinpoint the construction of the smaller one to 507, and the larger one to 554. Previous estimates had varied over 200 years.".......[more] From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:16:18 2006 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:16:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> Message-ID: I remember Lewis Lancaster has written a paper on this; sorry, that all I can recall at the moment. Piya Tan On 12/5/06, Benito Carral wrote: > > Dear Buddha-L denizens, > > Do you know some traditional sutra or commentary > (besides the _Sigalovada Sutta_) dealing with the > Buddhist family life? I'm particularly interest in East > Asian sources (in English translation). Do you know > some good English book dealing with Buddhist family > life? I would also like to understand how the Chinese > Confucian-family-oriented sangha transformed Indian > monastic-oriented Buddhist life and ideals (if so). > > Best wishes, > > -- > Benito Carral > Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061207/9a372fe3/attachment.htm From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 18:43:42 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:44:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan> Re: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - VasumitraLance, .Saa'n.dagirikas (rendered Abiding in Hidden Forests by Paramartha) would indicate this school consisted of hermits, who would have had little use for the pomp and ceremony involved in constructing steles and inscriptions. I don't think .Sa.n.dagirika can have this kind of meaning, although Paramaartha is giving exactly the kind of interpretation you would get in a commentary. Rather, .Sa.n.dagiri will be the name of a monastery. .sa.n.da = group of trees (=forest) giri = mountain, elevation, hill, high ground That's clearly how Xuanzang understood it (Hidden in Forest and Mountains). Both Paramartha and Xuanzang add the "hidden". I'm not sure how one can determine whether this is the name of a monastery or a characterization of the group without additional data. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/45a25a5e/attachment.html From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Wed Dec 6 18:57:23 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:56:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan> <006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <028b01c719a3$0a1e25a0$dc0a7257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > I am now preparing a full translation of the Paramartha version Dear Dan, Thanks for the comparative translations. I'm a bit tied up for the next day or so, but hope to get back to this discussion soon. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Dec 6 18:56:23 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Dec 6 18:56:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?q?Ni=C5=9Bcaya?= again Message-ID: <200612061856.23951.rhayes@unm.edu> I would belatedly like to thank Richard Nance, Dan Lusthaus, Stephen Hodge and Lance Cousins for drawing attention to helpful materials concerning a question I asked about the word ni?caya. While I found the information provided helpful, nothing that was said directly addressed the question I asked, so I will try again. First some background. Brendan Gillon and I are trying to finish the next installment of our translation of the Pram??asamuccaya. In conversations with Mark Siderits, we have discovered that he is of the view that when Dharmak?rti speaks of ni?caya, he is speaking of the fact of being convinced that something is the case. A possible alternative to Siderits's view, one expressed by Birgit Kellner,* is that the word in question refers to something stronger than just being convinced; it may refer to the fact of KNOWING that something is the case. The difference between knowing that P and being convinced that P is philosophically important. One can be convinced that P even though P is false (as George W. Bush and Tony Blair were convinced that Saddam Hussein was building weapons of mass destruction), but one cannot know that P even though P is false. If Dharmak?rti is speaking of inference as a means of adding to the things about which one is convinced, that is different from speaking of inference as a means of adding to our knowledge. Obviously, adding to one's convictions is a less demanding task than adding to one's knowledge. My question is this: is the Sanskrit term ni?caya (or the Pali nicchaya or the Tibetan nges pa) normally used in the sense of knowledge/ascertainment, or is it normally used in the sense of conviction/resolution? The exact usage of the term in Pram??asamuccaya is not at all easy to limn. * Birgit Kellner (2004) "Why Infer and not just Look? Dharmak?rti on the Psychology of Inferential Processes." In The Role of the Example in Classical Indian Logic. Edited by Shoryu Katsura and Ernst Steinkellner. Vienna: Arbeitskreis f?r tibetische und buddhistische Studien Universit?t Wien. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Wed Dec 6 19:31:01 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Dec 6 19:29:42 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> <012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen> Dear Dan, For better sense, I suggest re-punctuating this bit as follows: ??????????? A Buddha's cognition (j??na ?) with regards to morality (??la), etc. is not associated (viprayukta?) with cognitive-objects (vi?aya). ?????????????? By means of / on the basis of ?lambanas that are discerned, one can fully understand all dharmas. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Wed Dec 6 19:46:51 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Dec 6 19:45:31 2006 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=5BBuddha-l=5D_Ni=C5=9Bcaya_again?= References: <200612061856.23951.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <02d901c719a9$f30866d0$dc0a7257@zen> Richard Hayes wrote< A possible alternative to Siderits's view, one expressed by Birgit Kellner,* is that the word in question refers to something stronger than just being convinced; it may refer to the fact of KNOWING that something is the case. ---- If ni?caya is used uniformly in Indian philosophical discourse, then this interpretation is correct. I have had a quick look through five or six of the major commentaries on the Bhagavad Gita, where the term is discussed. They talk about, for example, having ni?caya that the appearance of water in a mirage is not real water. They are clearly talking about certain / definite knowledge which distinguishes tattva from mithyaa. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 20:29:04 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:29:15 2006 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=5BBuddha-l=5D_Ni=C5=9Bcaya_again?= References: <200612061856.23951.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <02a501c719af$d96c19a0$6d369c04@Dan> Richard, I'm not sure the word itself will solve all this, since ni?caya probably has different connotations for different thinkers, and even the same thinker at different times. None of the following may be helpful, but I'll take an initial stab. I am not sure that the distinction between knowing that P vs being convinced that P (the latter a form of belief, not knowledge) applies in Dharmakirti's case. One way to think about that which may help would be to ascertain what sort of objects of knowledge does ni?caya apply to. If, as is usually claimed, for Dharmakirti only perception of discrete, momentary particulars can count as direct knowledge (in the know that P sense), while inference (or however you want to think of anum?na) yields indirect knowledge that is nonetheless true, then the question would be: To which type of knowledge-object does ni?caya apply? Is it, for instance, only ni?caya of doctrinal (i.e., conceptual) objects, or does one have ni?caya of the momentary particulars themselves? Does one have ni?caya of both svalak?a?a and s?m?nyalak?a?a, or only the latter? And if there is some sort of ni?caya about svalak?a?a (e.g., a ni?caya concerning the distinction between sva- and s?m?nya-, or a determination about the svalak?a?a of something), does this constitute direct cognition (pratyak?a) of that thing and/or its svalak?a?a, or is this rather knowledge ABOUT that thing (or its svalak?a?a)? While the latter would not have the same status as direct cognition, it would nonetheless be a true conceptual cognition, which is not the same as a belief or (possibly mistaken) conviction. There are, it would seem to me, methodological procedures by which one can reach true, albeit conceptual, judgements about something. Otherwise Dharmakirti wouldn't bother doing anything or emphasize "purpose." As for the word itself, here are some Chinese equivalents, which indicate how at least some Buddhist translators understood the term. Again, I'll provide links to Chuck Muller's online dictionary (username: guest, leave pswd blank -- don't forget to include the closing parenthesis at the end of the urls), so that you can see the plethora of *other* terms that are also rendered by these characters, to give you a feel for their semantic range. 1. The most common equivalent is ?? jueding, which means to settle, decide upon, be certain about, reach a definite determination. http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?6c.xml+id('b6c7a-5b9a') 2. A similar equivalent is ?? jueliao, which means to reach a resolute decision, or "to apprehend perfectly." It also renders ni?caya, avadh?ra?a; ek?nt?-bh?va, nidh?rayati, nirdh?rayati, vini?cita, vyavasth?na. http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?6c.xml+id('b6c7a-4e86') 3. Less common, but also used, is ?? gangjue: certitude, firm determination. http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?52.xml+id('b525b-6c7a') Each of the above includes as part of its compound the character ? jue, which on its own means "decide, settle, judge, fix, agree upon, resolve, arrange, determine." http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?6c.xml+id('b6c7a') 4. Even less common, but also attested, is ??? zheng siwei, which is more commonly used as an equivalent for samyak-sa?kalpa, which would certainly go with the application of ni?caya to conceptual and doctrinal knowledge-objects rather than direct cognition of discrete particulars. http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?6b.xml+id('b6b63-601d-60df') 5. Finally, again not that commonly used but also attested, ? zhi, which means direct immediate cognition, and is usually translated "knowledge" or "to know." http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?77.xml+id('b77e5') The sematic ranges you will find for each of these terms may help clarify -- or further complicate -- your search for certainty about ni?caya. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061206/13952958/attachment.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 7 01:55:10 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu Dec 7 02:20:30 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] textual linearity vs fluidity in dialogue In-Reply-To: <004201c71987$601ef770$2930cece@charlie> References: <004201c71987$601ef770$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Joanna, you wrote: > so I take the liberty of reposting a comment from another list >(that some of you are on as well) which not only answers my query >indirectly, but also makes a sage point that seems applicable to the >discussion about pudgalavada texts as well: and quote Matthew Kapstein: >"In a similar vein, I note that my article on the >Chaandyoga-U., "Indra's search for the self" (reprinted in >my book _Reason's Traces_) suggests -- though I did not >state this as robustly as I now think I should have -- that >the final redaction of that "early" Upani.sad was also >post-Buddha. It seems to me that the 19th cent. model -- one >text or tradition coming after another in a linear series -- >has to be definitively abandoned in favor of a more >fluid conception in which texts and traditions evolved in >dialogue with one another and arrived at their "finished" >forms in processes spanning centuries. Certainly, works like >the BAU and the ChU seem better understood in this way. Well, I also think that much literature during the oral period (and some after) may have operated like this, but I would be wary of assuming that this is true in all cases. Of course, in this particular case it does not take two to tango. Even if one believes that some of the discourses of the Majjhima had a relatively fixed form because of their association with the founder, if the early Upani.sads did not, then the alternatives I presented will have to take a more nuanced form. We could only say that Majjhima references are to particular passages in Upani.sads. And this does not take into account that there may have been older Upani.sads or proto-Upani.sads which have not survived. Lance From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 7 03:31:06 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu Dec 7 03:31:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b In-Reply-To: <02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan> <012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan> <02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: Dan/Stephen, >For better sense, I suggest re-punctuating this bit as follows: > >???q???????s?????????B > >A Buddha's cognition (j??na ?) with regards to morality (??la), etc. >is not associated (viprayukta?) with cognitive-objects (vi?aya). Could this just be anaalambana ? In abhidharma at least, viprayukta means 'having a distant relationship with' as opposed to samprayukta 'having a close relationship with'. Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061207/3fd8b222/attachment.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 7 04:27:40 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu Dec 7 04:28:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra In-Reply-To: <026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan> <026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, The Pali seems to be generally channaagaarika 'possessing hidden abodes'. I am not sure if .Sa.n.dagirika is actually attested in an Indic language. Note that the only way to move between cha- in Pali and .sa- in Sanskrit is if the initial element is understood as equivalent to .sa.t 'six'. This is because the development is anomalous (.sa.t may be from an older k.sa-). However, an equivalence to Sanskrit .sa.n.na(a)garika 'belonging to six cities' or (more probably) a mistaken back-formation from a vernacular is possible. That could then easily become .Sa.n.dagirika or similar. Most likely of all: Vasumitra invented this school either out of thin air or on the basis of some vague recollection to bring the number up to 18. Everybody else is following him. No views are ever attributed to this school ? >> .Saa'n.dagirikas (rendered Abiding in Hidden Forests by >>Paramartha) would indicate this school consisted of hermits, who >>would have had little use for the pomp and ceremony involved >>in constructing steles and inscriptions. > >I don't think .Sa.n.dagirika can have this kind of meaning, although >Paramaartha is giving exactly the kind of interpretation you would >get in a commentary. Rather, .Sa.n.dagiri will be the name of a >monastery. > >.sa.n.da = group of trees (=forest) >giri = mountain, elevation, hill, high ground > >That's clearly how Xuanzang understood it (Hidden in Forest and >Mountains). Both Paramartha and Xuanzang add the "hidden". > >I'm not sure how one can determine whether this is the name of a >monastery or a characterization of the group without additional data. > >Dan Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061207/0e1c8989/attachment.htm From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 7 06:10:17 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 7 06:09:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen> L.S. Cousins wrote, > Could this just be anaalambana ? Looking at the Chinese sentence structure, this is very unlikely. It also more likely to be vi.saya anyway. >In abhidharma at least, viprayukta means 'having a distant >relationship with' as opposed to samprayukta 'having a close >relationship with'. In everything that I read, viprayukta is the opposite of samprayukta -- "disassociated". But here I would prefer to reconstruct "asamprayukta". Another, though much less likely, possibility is asamanvaagata. Best wishes, Stephen From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 7 07:13:09 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 7 07:12:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan><026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <035501c71a09$d2e10aa0$dc0a7257@zen> Dear Dan / Lance, Here are a few modifications / corrections to Dan's translation of Vasumitra. DL/X: If the bonds (sa?yojana) are eliminated by cultivation (bh?van?-m?rga) in the k?ma-dh?tu, one is called "free from desire." They aren't eliminated in dar?ana (-m?rga). SH/X: If one eliminates the bonds [associated with] the k?ma-dh?tu to be eliminated by cultivation (bh?van?-prah?tavya), one is said to be "free from desire", but not in the case of those to be eliminated by seeing (dar?ana-prah?tavya). DL/P: The bonds (sa?yojana) associated with the k?ma-dh?tu are negated through the bh?van?-m?rga. If a person is able to eliminate (them), then he attains "elimination of desire." If they are negated through the dar?ana-m?rga in the k?ma-dh?tu, then it is not as good as that. SH/P: As for the bonds (sa?yojana) associated with the k?ma-dh?tu to be eliminated by the bh?van?-m?rga, when a person has eliminated them, he attains the "elimination of desire". This is not so in the case of those associated wuth the k?ma-dh?tu which are to be eliminated by the path of seeing. > The third item, in Chinese, is xiang, an infamously multi-semantic term, > which can be used > to render lak?a?a, ?k?ra, nimitta, li?ga, etc. It's not nimitta or ?k?ra at all. The "xiang" here is the wrong character -- it should be the "sa.mj~naa" xiang ! See Thien Chau p90 and corresponding Chinese for details. [NB for Lance: I am referring to the English translation of "Literature of the Personalists"] DL/P: If one takes cessation to be collected/categorized with them, then generally there are six types (?). SH/P If one subsumes them under cessation, there are six types in total. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 7 07:44:03 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 7 07:44:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] textual linearity vs fluidity in dialogue References: <004201c71987$601ef770$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <006001c71a0e$242bc0e0$2930cece@charlie> > Joanna, ......We could only say > that Majjhima references are to particular passages in Upani.sads. > And this does not take into account that there may have been older > Upani.sads or proto-Upani.sads which have not survived. > > Lance =============== Sort of backs up the point about fluidity. Joanna From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 7 09:29:35 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu Dec 7 09:32:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b In-Reply-To: <032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@D an><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen> <032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: Dan/Stephen, >>In abhidharma at least, viprayukta means 'having a distant >>relationship with' as opposed to samprayukta 'having a close >>relationship with'. >In everything that I read, viprayukta is the opposite of samprayukta >-- "disassociated". But here I would prefer to reconstruct >"asamprayukta". Another, though much less likely, possibility is >asamanvaagata. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Well, Stephen, I don't know what you read. But seriously, I should probably have kept to the Pali vippayutta- and sampayutta-. Still what then do you understand a (citta)viprayuktadharma to be ? Lance From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 7 10:13:01 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 7 10:11:50 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> L.S. Cousins wrote: > But seriously, I should probably have kept to the Pali vippayutta- and > sampayutta-. Still what then do you understand a (citta)viprayuktadharma > to be ? Basically, one of the list of twenty-four or so beginning with praapti and ending with asaamagrii. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 7 10:32:53 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu Dec 7 10:34:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b In-Reply-To: <037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@D an><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen> <037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: Stephen, >L.S. Cousins wrote: > >>But seriously, I should probably have kept to the Pali vippayutta- >>and sampayutta-. Still what then do you understand a >>(citta)viprayuktadharma to be ? > >Basically, one of the list of twenty-four or so beginning with >praapti and ending with asaamagrii. Replied like a true Yogaacaarin. But what does the term viprayukta mean here ? Or, rather what does it mean to the Vaibhaa.sikas from whom they took over the term, since in Yogaacaara many of them are simply concepts. Surely, the point is that they are not cittasamprayukta i.e. they don't share the same object, material base, etc. They are not dissociated from citta in the sense of being quite separated. Lance From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 7 18:31:50 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 7 18:30:31 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan><026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan> <035501c71a09$d2e10aa0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <03e201c71a68$a28c67a0$dc0a7257@zen> Dan, Lance et al, Further to my last, >It's not nimitta or ?k?ra at all. The "xiang" here is the wrong >character -- it should be the "sa.mj~naa" xiang ! See Thien Chau p90 and >corresponding Chinese for details. Thien Chau p47 and T1506 p18 b 06-19 is better since the Chinese text for his p90 is corrupt and Chau's summary "translation" here is inaccurate anyway. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 7 18:46:01 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 7 18:44:43 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <03ed01c71a6a$9e0aec40$dc0a7257@zen> L.S. Cousins wrote: > Surely, the point is that they are not cittasamprayukta i.e. they don't > share the same object, material base, etc. They are not dissociated from > citta in the sense of being quite separated. Lance, Well, perhaps it depends from what context you are speaking. As far as I know, the Vaibhasika view is that they are quite separate from mind. But I am not sure why you are bringing this up -- the viprayukta / asamprayukta in the Vasumitra text doesn't seem to be obviously talking about citta-viprayukta-dharmas. Perhaps I'm missing something. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Dec 7 23:06:08 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu Dec 7 23:06:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan><026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan><035501c71a09$d2e10aa0$dc0a7257@zen> <03e201c71a68$a28c67a0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <030101c71a8e$f6bf9f60$9c339c04@Dan> Stephen, Lance et al. > >It's not nimitta or ?k?ra at all. The "xiang" here is the wrong > >character -- it should be the "sa.mj~naa" xiang ! See Thien Chau p90 and > >corresponding Chinese for details. > > Thien Chau p47 and T1506 p18 b 06-19 is better since the Chinese text for > his p90 is corrupt and Chau's summary "translation" here is inaccurate > anyway. I'm glad you caught the problems on p90 before I had a chance to point them out (in short, the only word in that miserable passage that Thich T.C. doesn't change into something else is the xiang/thought term! He completely mangles it.) P. 47 is, in some ways, no better. The Taisho punctuation here is completely wrong, and TTC therefore mis-parses the passage in his comments. That passage, in fact, seems to reinforce the reading of xiang/nimitta. I haven't commented yet on the many suggested emendations suggested by Stephen. Some are what I would consider merely stylistic revisions, with little if any semantic impact, and since Stephen's rendering are less literal and more mellifluous, they are harmless revisions. Others result from some major or minor surgery on the original text, and these I remain hesitant to embrace. I would rather try to make sense of what the page presents, perhaps altering punctuation (since the Taisho punctuation is notoriously erroneous), and only when all efforts, even some that are, as Stephen somewhat justifiably characterized them, "creative," will I start to look for surgical remedies. Since it would require technical (and for most buddha-lers, arcane) details to go into each of Stephen's suggestions, I will restrict my online comments to this example alone, which, perhaps for those not just hitting the delete button on this thread, may illustrate the sort of challenges faced by those attempting to decipher such texts (that is, the translations most of you read in order to acquire more knowledge of Buddhism). The problems with the long and short text are legion, and TCC's pioneering effort is highly laudable -- downright courageous at times -- but not always on the mark. The short text is somewhat better, but it is terse and jumbled at times. The long text, which TCC sees as containing not only a root text, but a commentary and (at least one) subcommentary, is an interesting disaster. While not exactly stating this outright, his reconstruction of the circumstances of its composition suggest a scenario something like the following: Kumaarabuddhi, from a Turfan royal family, was probably a spoiled rich kid who, not being in the line to inherit rulership, was farmed out to the local monastic community to pursue a monk's life (not an uncommon scenario in Buddhist countries). He was, at best, a middling scholar. Somehow he ends up in China at time when Dao'an and Huiyuan were active. In order to have him earn his keep, Dao'an decided to put him to good use and have him translate some texts, starting with the Vatsiputriya treatise (and its commentaries). Given the state of his talents, the resulting translation was miserable, and Dao'an, Huiyuan, and the others realized that (which is probably why he was not assigned any more translations, and we hear little more about him). Huiyuan, in writing about the translation work, while maintaining a diplomatic tone extolling the merits of the work, warns, not so subtly between the lines, that the work of translation with Kumarabuddhi was unpleasant and the result was unsatisfactory. TCC himself loses no opportunity to (justifiably) complain about the translation mistakes he finds. Some remain instructive, however, as when (TCC, p. 47, n. 199) the short text uses the term zheng siwei (correct reflective thought) while in Kumarabuddhi's long version the corresponding term is yin xing ("practicing sexual misconduct"), an over-literal rendering of yoni"so-manaskaara, thus providing a good clue to the Indic term underlying the short version's zheng siwei (which, otherwise, could have been suggestive of a wide range of terms). Coming back to the passage with the xiang/nimitta that Stephen suggests we amend to a different xiang/thought (based on things in TCC on this page [actually on the following page], let's examine the evidence. 1. Both translations of Vasumitra, those by Paramartha and Xuanzang, have xiang/nimitta here, not xiang/thought. 2. While it would be conceivable that some textual corruption entered one version or the other, the odds against it happening to both texts, composed a century apart, is slight. 3. If one speculates that some editor/redactor came along at some later date and altered both texts for whatever reason, that would suggest that this later editor had the same opinion as I do, viz. that nimitta (or laksana, linga, etc.) was the correct term here. 4. Paramartha and Xuanzang were two of the best translators, so to think that they couldn't tell the difference in Sanskrit between samjna on the one hand and nimitta, laksana, linga, akara, etc. on the other, is unreasonable. 5. So the question remains, why do the long and short texts appear to have xiang/thought in the comparable context? To answer that, we need to look at the Chinese texts, which, to avoid message-size limitations, I will do in the next message. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 8 00:02:41 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 8 00:02:52 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan><026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan><035501c71a09$d2e10aa0$dc0a7257@zen> <03e201c71a68$a28c67a0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <032c01c71a96$dcad7400$9c339c04@Dan> Continuing from the previous message, the passages that TCC summarizes (but doesn't translate on pp.47-48), are T.25.1506.18b14-17. He summarizes thus: "a) patience (k.saanti), in which the practitioner profoundly penetrates the reality of compounded things; b) name (naama), in which the mind of the practioner becomes imperturbable in correct reflection. c) perception (xiang , sa.mj~naa) or clear comprehension; this includes the stage of the supreme worldly dharma (laukikaagradharma) since it is so with the perception of the Buddha." The Chinese (as presented in the Taisho) is: ???????? ? ?????????????????????????? ??????????????????? ?????????????????? I won't belabor technical analysis (I'm sure Stephen will recognize those), but only point out a few relevant features. 1. TCC treats this passage as consisting of three elements (ksanti, nama, samjna), while Paramartha and Xuanzang list FOUR items (ksanti, nama, nimitta, and laukikaa agra-dharmaa.h). TCC believes this entire text tries to list everything in three-s, and so predisposes himself to treat this passage in that way. But we quickly see in the Chinese that the fourth term is present here as well, though TCC has subsumed it in the third item -- in fact, he basically defines the third item (samjna/perception) by the fourth. That's a clue. 2. The line ????????????? needs to be repunctuated thus: ?????????????? Quickly translating what it says, with this new punctuation: ???????? ? Attaining true mental content (TCC suggests abhisamaya) one therefore is in correct reflective thought (yoni"so-manaskaara -- see previous message). ??????????????????? While contemplating the skandhas, dhaatus, aayatanas, impermanence, suffering, emptiness and no-self, if one wishes for sukha, this is called k.saanti (forebearance). ??????????? Correct reflective thought (yoni"so-manaskaara) with an imperturbable (ani~njya) mind (manas) is called naama (name). ?????, ???????? ? ? [=> ?]? Just as one sees someone familiar in a dream, or an image in a mirror, just so does one contemplate the nimitta of suffering. ??????????? [=> ?]??????? The laukika-agra-dharma [i.e., the highest meditative insight] due to taking the World Honored One as a nimitta, is called "Drawing Near [to Nirvana] while Practicing Samadhi." I'm sure Stephen will find several things to quibble about in my translation, but the pertinent passage is the second to last, the one in which the third item of the list of four (ksanti, etc.) is described. We are given examples of "images," types of objects: someone familiar appearing in a dream, or an image in a mirror. These are nimittas. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 8 00:49:11 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 8 00:49:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> <03ed01c71a6a$9e0aec40$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <034401c71a9d$5be15470$9c339c04@Dan> Stephen and Lance > But I > am not sure why you are bringing this up -- the viprayukta / asamprayukta in > the Vasumitra text doesn't seem to be obviously talking about > citta-viprayukta-dharmas. Perhaps I'm missing something. > Stephen Hodge I suppose this is my fault, due to clumsily suggesting (with a question mark) vipraykta for buxiangying. A better guess would have been something like: na anugata, asamanvaagata, asa.mgata, etc., i.e., not accompanied by, etc. Sorry. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 8 00:58:57 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 8 00:59:07 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan><026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan><035501c71a09$d2e10aa0$dc0a7257@zen><03e201c71a68$a28c67a0$dc0a7257@zen> <032c01c71a96$dcad7400$9c339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <034a01c71a9e$b8f2e6f0$9c339c04@Dan> BTW, TCC discusses again the four good roots as three, still retaining xiang/samjna for part of his explanation, while, drawing on Bareau, calling it "aspects" (implying aakaara) intermittently, indicating his thinking on this vacillated. Cf. pp. 193ff, esp. n.719. Dan Lusthaus From selwyn at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 8 01:55:55 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Fri Dec 8 02:07:23 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b In-Reply-To: <03ed01c71a6a$9e0aec40$dc0a7257@zen> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@D an><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> <03ed01c71a6a$9e0aec40$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: Stephen, >L.S. Cousins wrote: > >>Surely, the point is that they are not cittasamprayukta i.e. they >>don't share the same object, material base, etc. They are not >>dissociated from citta in the sense of being quite separated. > >Lance, > >Well, perhaps it depends from what context you are speaking. As far >as I know, the Vaibhasika view is that they are quite separate from >mind. But that would mean that arising, etc. and passing away of each caitta and of consciousness itself is 'quite separate from mind'. How could that be ? >But I am not sure why you are bringing this up -- the viprayukta / >asamprayukta in the Vasumitra text doesn't seem to be obviously >talking about citta-viprayukta-dharmas. Perhaps I'm missing >something. Well, I expect we're wandering from the point. My original objection is partially met by using 'na samprayukta' or 'asamprayukta' if that occurs. You originally wrote: >A Buddha's cognition (j?aana ?) with regards to morality ("siila), >etc. is not associated (viprayukta?) with cognitive-objects >(vi.saya). To me that looked as if it belongs in the context of the discussions about the knowledge of Buddhas that are collected in chap, VI of Griffiths, _On Being Buddha_. Of course, that is later, but we could be dealing with an earlier Sammatiiya version. The other part of my problem is that it otherwise doesn't quite make sense. Rephrasing, "A Buddha's knowledge of the path is not associated with colour, etc." Did anybody suggest it was ? Or, am I missing something here ? Lance From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 8 03:10:49 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 8 03:11:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen><03ed01c71a6a$9e0aec40$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <062501c71ab1$24757700$9c339c04@Dan> Lance and Stephen, > You originally wrote: > >A Buddha's cognition (j?aana ?) with regards to morality ("siila), > >etc. is not associated (viprayukta?) with cognitive-objects > >(vi.saya). Lance's objections are reasonable. Hence I would still prefer to translate this something like: Buddha's cognition (j?ana ?) is not accompanied by (asamanvagata? asa.mgata?) morality (sila), etc. Even this raises questions about what Paramartha is trying to suggest they hold. Given that the pudgalavadins were said to be obsessed with vinaya, this "release" from vinaya-type concerns being attributed to the Buddha is curious. And one can only wonder what the "etc." is meant to suggest. One thought that crosses my mind is that, if sila, samadhi, and prajna are taken to be means no longer required once one has achieved the ends, then this is just an awkward way of saying that Buddha is a"saik.sa, he no longer needs to train. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 8 03:43:41 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 8 03:43:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> Message-ID: <063f01c71ab5$baf0bb50$9c339c04@Dan> Lance, Stephen, et al. Looking over the difference between the Skt Diirgha-agama and the Digha-nikaya passage re: the pudgalavadins, several thoughts occurred to me. First, it makes one wish that some of the other Tripitakas of the other Buddhist schools had survived. There may have been more interesting variations. I suspect that the version of this sutra in the Vatsiputriya canon -- and, assuming the other pudgalavada schools shared the same canon without any significant deviations, the Sammitiyas, etc.as well -- was closer to what we find in the Pali than to this particular Skt recension. The Skt version almost seems deliberately modified to neutralize pudgalavada readings and appropriations: not only was prajnapti deleted (replaced by vyavahaara), but the number of terms used to identify a "self," e.g., puru.sa, etc. are increased, putting more stress on the rejection of "self" language, rather than setting limits for the proper use of "self" language, as the pali (and I assume the Vatsiputriya) version(s) expound. Do any of you have a different take on this? Dan Lusthaus From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Fri Dec 8 05:48:35 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Dec 8 05:47:19 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><015601c71981$7ac40210$6d369c04@Dan><026801c719a1$284443e0$6d369c04@Dan><035501c71a09$d2e10aa0$dc0a7257@zen><03e201c71a68$a28c67a0$dc0a7257@zen> <032c01c71a96$dcad7400$9c339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <042601c71ac7$2ce02690$dc0a7257@zen> Dan Lusthaus rwote > I'm sure Stephen will find several things to quibble about in my > translation, but the pertinent passage is the second to last, the one in > which the third item of the list of four (ksanti, etc.) is described. We > are > given examples of "images," types of objects: someone familiar appearing > in > a dream, or an image in a mirror. These are nimittas. Dear Dan, I am not entirely convinced by your re-punctuated translation of the latter part of this passage, but after having reviewed the evidence again last night before bed, I was going to write that I was having second thoughts about this anyway. So I am happy to concede that in fact we are most likely dealing with xiang / nimitta rather than xiang / sa.mj~naa. However, it may be the case that underlying Indic text for T1506 did have sa.mj~naa -- given that definitionally nimitta implies sa.mj~naa and vice versa. Best wishes, Styephen Hodge From selwyn at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 8 07:35:23 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Fri Dec 8 07:35:57 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada - Vasumitra2b In-Reply-To: <063f01c71ab5$baf0bb50$9c339c04@Dan> References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c 04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04 @Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@D an><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen> <063f01c71ab5$baf0bb50$9c339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan/Stephen, >Looking over the difference between the Skt Diirgha-agama and the >Digha-nikaya passage re: the pudgalavadins, several thoughts occurred to me. > >First, it makes one wish that some of the other Tripitakas of the other >Buddhist schools had survived. There may have been more interesting >variations. Yes, indeed. >I suspect that the version of this sutra in the Vatsiputriya canon -- and, >assuming the other pudgalavada schools shared the same canon without any >significant deviations, the Sammitiyas, etc.as well Bear in mind that, in one of the two or three extant inscriptions, the school in question is referred to as both Sammatiiya and Vaatsiiputriiya (with slight spelling variations). I see no reason to doubt that all of the Pudgalavaadin schools considered themselves to be Vaatsiiputriiyas. > -- was closer to what we >find in the Pali than to this particular Skt recension. The Skt version >almost seems deliberately modified to neutralize pudgalavada readings and >appropriations: not only was prajnapti deleted (replaced by vyavahaara), In fact, vohaara is already there in the Pali. I am not sure what to make of the absence of praj?apti. > but >the number of terms used to identify a "self," e.g., puru.sa, etc. are >increased, putting more stress on the rejection of "self" language, rather >than setting limits for the proper use of "self" language, as the pali (and >I assume the Vatsiputriya) version(s) expound. This Sanskrit version belongs to what used to be called Muulasarvaastivaadin and is now perhaps better designated as Recension Two. Most scholars (but not Gregory Schopen) think that as a whole this very large collection was assembled relatively late. >Do any of you have a different take on this? > >Dan Lusthaus Not really. I do think it is clear that a collection process has gone on in the editing of discourses. Something like: if five things are mentioned in one discourse and five things in another with two of them different, a new version of both those discourses appears with all seven. Sometimes one or both of the earlier versions are even retained. So a list of the number of terms for "self" is likely to get longer in later collections. But the absence of praj?apti may be significant. Lance From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 8 12:22:45 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 8 12:22:59 2006 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=5BBuddha-l=5D_Ni=C5=9Bcaya_again?= References: <200612061856.23951.rhayes@unm.edu> <02a501c719af$d96c19a0$6d369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <008501c71afe$3e60dfe0$06369c04@Dan> Richard, Here's another thought, if one wishes to play within the domain of Analytic philosophy lingo. How about instead of differentiating between know that P and be convinced that P, one distinguishes between know that P and know P, the former referring to conceptual knowledge and the latter to the special type of knowing involved in direct perception of discrete particulars (though P in this case would necessarily be nonreducible to linguistic conceptualization)? Perhaps one would, additionally, have to differentiate between P (the momentary, nonconceptual particular) and P1 (the true concepts about that particular). We're still waiting to hear from you whether ni"scaya applies to both of these types of knowledge. One would also have to clarify whether the correspondence truth theory implied by know that P is fully appropriate for Dharmakirti, or whether a distinction between P and P1 requires something closer to a representational theory of truth. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061208/714d9226/attachment.html From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Dec 8 14:33:39 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Dec 8 14:33:49 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?q?Ni=C5=9Bcaya?= again In-Reply-To: <008501c71afe$3e60dfe0$06369c04@Dan> References: <200612061856.23951.rhayes@unm.edu> <02a501c719af$d96c19a0$6d369c04@Dan> <008501c71afe$3e60dfe0$06369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <200612081433.39674.rhayes@unm.edu> On Friday 08 December 2006 12:22, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > How about instead of differentiating between know that P and be convinced > that P, one distinguishes between know that P and know P, the former > referring to conceptual knowledge and the latter to the special type of > knowing involved in direct perception of discrete particulars (though P in > this case would necessarily be nonreducible to linguistic > conceptualization)? I am not sure whether ni?caya is used to refer to direct knowledge of momentary particulars---I haven't yet had time to look through Ono's concordance of every word ever used by Dharmakirti for that information. I do know that the term is used a lot with reference to propositional knowledge, and that is the context I am now most worried about for my current translation project. The terms ni?caya and ni?cita come up around twenty times in the first forty verses or their commentaries of the PVSV. Both of those words are invariably translated by the Tibetans as nges pa. That Tibetan phrase is also used to translated ava?yam, niyata, niyama, pratiniyata, Thanks for your thoughts on this, Dan. There is more to say, and I will say it as soon as I dig my way out from under the stack of essays and final exams I have to grade, none of which are---alas---on topics in Indian Buddhist epistemology. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From dmahinda at yahoo.com Fri Dec 8 15:00:13 2006 From: dmahinda at yahoo.com (Mahinda Deegalle) Date: Fri Dec 8 15:00:45 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] New Book on Popularizing Buddhism In-Reply-To: <200612081433.39674.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <172720.54332.qm@web52513.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Buddha-L readers: I am just writing this to let you know the release of my new book. Details of the book are below. Sincerely Mahinda Deegalle Mahinda Deegalle, Popularizing Buddhism: Preaching as Performance in Sri Lanka (State University of New York Press, 2006), pp. 241; ISBN10: 0-7914-6897-6; ISBN13: 978-0-7914-6897-5 The first book to focus on the ritual practice of Buddhist preaching in Asia, Popularizing Buddhism examines the role of preaching in Buddhist devotional life and its relationship to the vernacular Sinhala literature of late medieval Sri Lanka. Blending ethnography, textual and doctrinal studies, and an analysis of untranslated Sinhala vernacular Buddhist texts, Mahinda Deegalle traces the development of Buddhist preaching within the Sri Lankan Theravada Buddhist tradition. He explains the preaching ceremony popularly known as bana and offers a rich depiction of preaching styles, events, and specific preachers. The book delves into the debates surrounding the preaching ritual?s origin and its potential beginning and continuity within the bhanaka (reciter) tradition, and explores the interactions between vernacular religious traditions of Sri Lanka with cosmopolitan Buddhism. Deegalle advances previous research on the transmission of Buddhist teachings by constructing a vivid picture of the way Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions have shaped the nature of Theravada Buddhism. ?In his research Deegalle has examined the most important and relevant sources and has demonstrated a sense of priority in recognizing the most pertinent discussions within them. I applaud his sense of historical perspective, his acute sensitivity to the Sri Lankan Buddhist religious and cultural context, and his willingness to make critical assessments of previous scholarship when needed. His book fills a vacuum.? ? John Clifford Holt, coeditor of Constituting Communities: Theravada Buddhism and the Religious Cultures of South and Southeast Asia Mahinda Deegalle is Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religions at Bath Spa University in England. He is the editor of Buddhism, Conflict, and Violence in Modern Sri Lanka and coeditor (with Frank J. Hoffman) of Pali Buddhism. Table Of Contents Acknowledgments Abbreviations 1. Preaching in the Context of Popular Religion 2. Buddha as the Best Preacher 3. Bana as an Emerging Tradition 4. Banapot as Innovation 5. Marathon Preachers 6. Preaching Performance in the Nineteenth Century 7. Twentieth-century Innovations 8. Preacher as Poet 9. Further Reflections Notes Bibliography Index Dr. Mahinda Deegalle Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religions School of Historical and Cultural Studies Bath Spa University Newton Park Bath BA2 9BN, United Kingdom Phone: 44+(0)1225-875429(W); Fax: 44+(0)1225-875605(W) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From jkirk at spro.net Sun Dec 10 10:40:56 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Dec 10 10:41:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Worthwhile educational film Message-ID: <002701c71c82$590eb210$2930cece@charlie> There may not be many academic instructors on this list, but for those who are, I recommend renting this film for classes on: comparative religion, Buddhism, and/or cultural criticism. Readings should perhaps include selections from, or the whole book, David Loy, The Great Awakening: A Buddhist Social Theory. Wisdom Pubs., 2003. Joanna ============================= The film: Sandcastles: Buddhism & Global Finance A Film by Alexander Oey [The film] is a fascinating, interdisciplinary interpretation of the volatile worlds of global finance and international trade. Featuring commentary from economist Arnoud Boot, sociologist Saskia Sassen, and Tibetan Buddhist teacher Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche (director of The Cup), the film applies a Buddhist analysis to the functioning of worldwide finance and trade. ...As the discussion unfolds an important question is raised: can this profit at-all-costs mentality lead to a compassionate, humane economy, in which wealth is distributed more fairly? And how can an understanding of the fleeting and illusory nature of finance and consciousness help us develop alternative approaches? 30 minutes / color / 2003 Sale/video-dvd: $225 Rental/video: $75 Available from http://www.frif.com/new2004/san.html From bcarral at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 13:48:41 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Sun Dec 10 16:12:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> On Tuesday, December 5, 2006, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Try Alan Cole's _Mothers and Sons in Chinese > Buddhism_. Thank you for the reference. Since lay people are considered second-class citizens by traditional Buddhism and its teachings are individual-oriented (one main factor why it seems so attractive to individualistic marxist-oriented Westerners, I think), I'm wondering how such characteristics were absorbed (if so) by the family-oriented ethos of classical Chinese culture. I also wonder what Chinese sangha has thought about abortion, homosexuality, and divorce through the years. Thoughts are very welcome. Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From bcarral at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 13:49:45 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Sun Dec 10 16:12:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19510037827.20061210214945@gmail.com> On Thursday, December 7, 2006, Piya Tan wrote: > I remember Lewis Lancaster has written a paper on > this; sorry, that all I can recall at the moment. I will look for it. Thank you for the reference. Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Sun Dec 10 16:25:17 2006 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun Dec 10 16:25:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> Message-ID: Benito, On Dec 10, 2006, at 12:48 PM, Benito Carral wrote: > I also wonder what Chinese sangha has thought about > abortion, homosexuality, and divorce through the years. Welcome back. I don't think it covers exactly your question on Chinese sangha views of abortion and homosexuality, but you might want to look at _Buddhism, Sexuality, and Gender_, edited by Jose Ignacio Cabezon. It's got chapters on many issues clustered around your concerns. Good wishes, Franz Metcalf From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 01:37:17 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon Dec 11 01:37:23 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> Message-ID: <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> Benito Carral schreef: > Since lay people are considered second-class > citizens by traditional Buddhism and its teachings are > individual-oriented (one main factor why it seems so > attractive to individualistic marxist-oriented > Westerners, I think), > Thoughts are very welcome. > > The Western modern discourse has been indivdualistic since Descartes, no need to blame Marx or Saint Simon. And it was Adam Smith who made economic indivdualism the standard of the dominant classes. Marx was even against indivualism, he wanted collective ownership of the means of production. Something that had become a reality in Chinese Buddhist monasteries. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From bcarral at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 08:09:45 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Mon Dec 11 11:30:47 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> On Monday, December 11, 2006, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > The Western modern discourse has been indivdualistic > since Descartes, no need to blame Marx or Saint > Simon. Well, Descartes didn't destroy the Western family. Mainstream Western discourse seems hijacked by the Frankfurt School's offsprings, and one of their declared marxist goals is to destroy family and long-term meaningful relationships between individuals because of their supposed "oppressive" nature (I suppose that hedonist egos tend to feel oppressed by commitment and so they are in conflict--it seems that marxists decided that it's easier and funnier to destroy commitments than the hedonist ego). So, as far as I'm concerned, marxism is a cancer that should be transformed (reeducated) if possible. BTW, it is not coincidence that Erich Fromm wrote a book about Buddhism and marxist psychoanalysis, and these days I'm exploring such a link in order to explain why marxist-oriented Westerners, wich are majority, feel attracted by postmodern reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism (it indeed seems quite easy to explain). Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From bcarral at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 09:04:30 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Mon Dec 11 11:30:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205305809.20061211170430@gmail.com> On Monday, December 11, 2006, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Welcome back. Thank you. It's nice to read you again. > [Y]ou might want to look at _Buddhism, Sexuality, and > Gender_, edited by Jose Ignacio Cabezon. I will try to check its table of contents online, thank you. Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon Dec 11 11:35:55 2006 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 11 11:36:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life Message-ID: In a message dated 12/11/2006 12:31:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, bcarral@gmail.com writes: why marxist-oriented Westerners, wich are majority, feel attracted by postmodern reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism (it indeed seems quite easy to explain). If I remember correctly, you have used the phrase "postmodern reinterpretations" before. What do you mean by it? Jack -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061211/0b485005/attachment.htm From richard.nance at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 12:19:17 2006 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Mon Dec 11 12:20:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, Benito Carral wrote: > So, as far > as I'm concerned, marxism is a cancer that should be > transformed (reeducated) if possible. I think you're working with a mixed metaphor here, Benito. Cancers aren't re-educable, as far as I know (though I'm not an oncologist). To say that X is a "cancer" seems to me to imply that X a threat to survival -- one that needs to be cut away, eradicated, disposed of, destroyed, etc. This may seem a somewhat trivial point, but I don't think it is: if your goal is education, you might want to ponder the terms in which you characterize those whom you intend to instruct. > these days I'm exploring such a link in order to > explain why marxist-oriented Westerners, wich are > majority, Watch out for over-hasty generalizations -- especially those that are ambiguous. Do you meant that most Westerners are Marxists, or that most Marxists are Westerners? From the general thrust of your paragraph, you seem to mean the former. But this is a claim that, without further qualification, seems patently false -- though I haven't checked in with "most Westerners" to check its veracity. (Nor am I quite sure where and how you're drawing the "West"/"East" divide.) Best wishes, R. Nance From bcarral at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:05:16 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Mon Dec 11 13:11:19 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> Message-ID: <867121915.20061211210516@gmail.com> On Monday, December 11, 2006, Richard Nance wrote: >> So, as far as I'm concerned, marxism is a cancer >> that should be transformed (reeducated) if possible. > I think you're working with a mixed metaphor here, > Benito. [...] Well, I think that maybe you're right. So I could paraphrase myself and say, "As far as I'm concerned, marxism is a mental virus that should removed through a reeducation of its hosts." Better? >> these days I'm exploring such a link [between >> postmodern reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism >> and cultural marxism] in order to explain why >> marxist-oriented Westerners, wich are majority, > Watch out for over-hasty generalizations Generalizations are useful when they are correct, no matter how hastily they are written. > Do you meant that most Westerners are Marxists, or > that most Marxists are Westerners? I don't think that such an ambiguity is present in my words, anyway, what I say is that most Westerners are marxists, although in an unconscious way, just as cultural marxist social enginery attempts. > [T]his is a claim that, without further > qualification, seems patently false -- though I > haven't checked in with "most Westerners" to check > its veracity. Well, you can study Western laws, mainstream education, and popular culture and compare them with the Frankfurt School's ideas. You can also read this article: http://www.tomvalentine.com/html/culture_wars.html > (Nor am I quite sure where and how you're drawing the > "West"/"East" divide.) Just as the COED defines it, "the West: Europe and North America seen in contrast to other civilizations," although I could have referred to "globalized citizens" as well. Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From jmp at peavler.org Mon Dec 11 13:14:58 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon Dec 11 13:15:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21283761-9D3D-40F0-B424-85D209EE99B6@peavler.org> On Dec 11, 2006, at 8:09 AM, Benito Carral wrote: > > BTW, it is not coincidence that Erich Fromm wrote a > book about Buddhism and marxist psychoanalysis, and > these days I'm exploring such a link in order to > explain why marxist-oriented Westerners, wich are > majority, feel attracted by postmodern > reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism (it indeed > seems quite easy to explain). This statement strikes me as utter nonsense. Marxism was already in bad odor back in the 60's when I was a revolutionary. Economical Marxism thrives (if thrive could be the word to use) in only a few spots in the West, although it has made something of a small comeback in a few places. Jim Peavler jmp@peavler.org From jkirk at spro.net Mon Dec 11 13:34:58 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Dec 11 13:35:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Position Buddhist Studies, Univ. of Hong Kong, Asst Prof Message-ID: <004f01c71d63$d37e8340$2930cece@charlie> In case anyone can use this. I heard from a colleague who worked there for a few years that the bureaucracy situation is pretty difficult there, so far as innovating pedagogically. Joanna =========================== > H-ASIA > December 11, 2006 > > > Position: Buddhist Studies, Assistant Professor, University of Hong Kong > ************************************************************************ > From: H-Net Job Guide: > > University of Hong Kong - Assistant Professor in the Centre of Buddhist > Studies > > Location: Hong Kong > Institution Type: College/University > Position Type: Assistant Professor > Submitted: Monday, December 11th, 2006 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Main Category: Religious Studies > Secondary Categories: None > > > The University of Hong Kong is at the international forefront of higher > learning and research, with more than 100 teaching departments and > sub-divisions of studies, and more than 60 research institutes and > centres. It has over 20,000 undergraduate and postgraduate students from > 48 countries. English is the medium of instruction. The University is > committed to international standards for excellence in scholarship and > research. > > Assistant Professor in the Centre of Buddhist Studies (Ref.: > RF-2006/2007-280) > > Applications are invited for appointment as Assistant Professor in the > Centre of Buddhist Studies, tenable from September 1, 2007 or as soon as > possible, on a two-year fixed-term basis, with the possibility of renewal. > > Applicants must possess a Ph.D. degree, with at least 2 years' teaching > experience in a recognized tertiary institution, have the ability to > direct research activity and supervise postgraduate students, and have an > established research and publications record. Area of specialization is > Indian and Chinese Buddhism. Candidates must have knowledge of both > Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism, and be able to read classical Chinese > Buddhist scriptures and preferably possess knowledge of Sanskrit and Pali > for research purposes. Further information about the Centre can be > obtained at http://www.buddhism.hku.hk/. > > Applicants should submit a completed University application form, a > curriculum vitae, writing sample, evidence of teaching excellence, and > arrange to have three confidential reference reports sent directly by the > referees to the Assistant Registrar (Appointments), Human Resource > Section, Registry, The University of Hong Kong, Pokfulam Road, Hong Kong. > > Starting annual salary for Assistant Professorship is around HK$451,980 > (approx. US$1=HK$7.8) (subject to review from time to time at the entire > discretion of the University). At current rates, salaries tax does not > exceed 16% of gross income. The appointment will attract a contract-end > gratuity and University contribution to a retirement benefits scheme, > totalling up to 15% of basic salary, as well as leave, and medical/dental > benefits. Housing benefits will be provided as applicable. > > Further particulars and application forms (272/302 amended) can be > obtained at https://www.hku.hk/apptunit/; or from the Appointments Unit > (Senior), Human Resource Section, Registry, The University of Hong Kong, > Hong Kong (fax (852) 2540 6735 or 2559 2058; e-mail: > apptunit@hkucc.hku.hk). Closes December 31, 2006. > > The University is an equal opportunity employer and is committed to a > No-Smoking Policy > > > > Contact Info: > The Appointments Unit (Senior), Human Resource Section, Registry, The > University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong (fax (852) 2540 6735 or 2559 2058; > e-mail: apptunit@hkucc.hku.hk) > Website: http://www.buddhism.hku.hk/ > > > The H-Net Job Guide is a service to the profession provided by H-Net. The > information provided for individual listings is the responsibility of the > organization posting the position. If you are interested in a particular > position, please contact the organization directly. Send comments and > questions about this service to H-Net Job Guide. > > Humanities & Social Sciences Online Copyright 1995-2006 > ****************************************************************** > To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: > > For holidays or short absences send post to: > with message: > SET H-ASIA NOMAIL > Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL > H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 > 3:41 PM > > From jmp at peavler.org Mon Dec 11 13:51:16 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon Dec 11 13:51:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <867121915.20061211210516@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> <867121915.20061211210516@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12FE7762-41EE-4F22-B04E-B029517D31FA@peavler.org> On Dec 11, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Benito Carral wrote: > Generalizations are useful when they are correct, no > matter how hastily they are written. I am afraid that you are insisting, with no supporting evidence whatsoever, that your generalizations are necessarily correct. I, for one, do not agree, so I reckon I am allowed to dismiss your generalization until further information is produced? > >> Do you meant that most Westerners are Marxists, or >> that most Marxists are Westerners? > > I don't think that such an ambiguity is present in > my words, anyway, what I say is that most Westerners > are marxists, although in an unconscious way, just as > cultural marxist social enginery attempts. I see. We are unaware that we are Marxists (hence evil cancers?) Who is aware that we are unconscious Marxists other than yourself? Where do I go to get a second opinion? > > > You can also read this article: > > http://www.tomvalentine.com/html/culture_wars.html > Wow! Some article. I'm very pleased not to base my ideas of civilization on this stuff! Not that I am very comfortable about the standards of the civilization I inhabit, I am thankfully not yet rabid. (Rabies, unlike cancer, is a disease that kills but that has no cure.) This is a discussion that seems to not be going in a very useful direction unless someone picks it up and can relate it back to some topic having to do with Buddhism or with ethics or something useful (or unless I am the only one who sees it as another of those blind alleys blocked by an absolute truth on either end.). Jim Peavler jmp@peavler.org From bcarral at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:30:15 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Mon Dec 11 13:53:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1904581735.20061211213015@gmail.com> On Monday, December 11, 2006, Jack wrote: >> marxist-oriented? Westerners feel attracted? by >>?postmodern reinterpretations?of traditional Buddhism > If I remember correctly, you have used the phrase > "postmodern reinterpretations"?before. What do you > mean by it? Postmodern reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism are characterized because they project on the tradition the "truth is a social construction (relative)" and "good and bad are social constuctions (relative)" postmodern ideals. For example, they could possibly agree with Peter Singer that "right sexual conduct" could include sexual intercourse with pets. Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From jmp at peavler.org Mon Dec 11 14:11:23 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon Dec 11 14:11:51 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <1904581735.20061211213015@gmail.com> References: <1904581735.20061211213015@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2006, at 1:30 PM, Benito Carral wrote: > For example, they could possibly > agree with Peter Singer that "right sexual conduct" > could include sexual intercourse with pets. That would depend on the pet, I would guess. > > Best wishes, > > -- > Benito Carral > Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > Jim Peavler jmp@peavler.org From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Dec 12 14:23:52 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue Dec 12 14:24:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165958632.7501.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-12-11 at 16:09 +0100, Benito Carral wrote: > these days I'm exploring such a link in order to > explain why marxist-oriented Westerners, wich are > majority, feel attracted by postmodern > reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism (it indeed > seems quite easy to explain). Probably the easiest explanation is that postmodernism has quite a lot in common with classical Buddhism; very little reinterpretation is needed. Although there are almost as many definitions of postmodernism as there are people who use the word, a pretty common view of postmodernism is that it is a rejection of epistemological foundationalism, metaphysical essentialism, philosophical realism and moral absolutism. Aside from a few Indian Buddhists in the fifth and sixth centuries, just about all Buddhist philosophy is anti-foundationalist; this is especially the case with Madhyamaka, but hardly less so of other schools. Most forms of classical Buddhism were also anti-realist, in that they went in for various kinds of reductionism. I can think of no Buddhists who were not anti-absolutist. So one could say that Buddhism was postmodern avant le mot, at least in general spirit. Mind you, I am inclined to agree with Richard Rorty that "postmodernism" is a word in search of a definition these days. It has been so over-used, both by people who are sympathetic with what they imagine it to mean and by people who employ the term to name their own personal b?te noire, that the word has nearly lost its meaning. One who wishes to communicate clearly might be well advised to use a more precise term these days. It has been quite a long time since I last encountered a Western Marxist. Among Buddhists I know of very few who read Habermass or other neo-Marxists. (I once read about two pages of Habermass and gave up in disgusted perplexity.) So in getting on your white horse and gallantly saving Buddhism from Marxists, you may be indulging in the spiritual exercise known as imitatio quixoti. Sally ho to La Mancha, ye noble Buddhist crusaders. There are foes to be fought and gallant arhants to save! -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Dec 12 15:51:01 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Dec 12 15:51:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <1164488920.7465.69.camel@rhayes-laptop><1164642539.12295.55.camel@rhayes-laptop><010601c71300$09623fb0$77339c04@Dan><009001c71310$386b5070$0b369c04@Dan><010e01c714cf$f21b9c30$fa067257@zen><019601c71568$e4eb81d0$fa067257@zen><020501c7158a$4078d7c0$fa067257@zen><00af01c717d7$a02b0590$0c369c04@Dan><010601c717df$4a239420$0c369c04@Dan><019d01c717eb$958fef60$0c369c04@Dan><006b01c71965$2e556c50$6d369c04@Dan><012a01c7197f$0cc35f60$6d369c04@Dan><02cb01c719a7$bcb52750$dc0a7257@zen><032901c71a01$0a892cc0$dc0a7257@zen><037301c71a22$f58ac0f0$dc0a7257@zen><063f01c71ab5$baf0bb50$9c339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <003801c71e40$00867320$b6339c04@Dan> Those who have followed the pudgalavada thread might be interested to know of a partial translation of what we have been calling the "long" text (the longer of the two parallel texts, the one translated by Kumarabuddhi, obscurely). I just came on it a day ago. The translation is by Leon Hurvitz, one of the more prolific and accurate of the translators of Buddhist materials from Chinese and Japanese of the recent generation. It's titled "The Road to Buddhist Salvation as described by Vasubhadra," Journal of the American Oriental Society (JOAS), 87, 4, Oct-Dec 1967, 434-486. He only translates pages 4a-7a of the text (the full text runs from 1a-15b of Taisho v. 25), i.e., about one fifth of the total. It is an interesting effort for several reasons: 1. Although at one point he identifies a position in a passage as reflecting a Sammitiya viewpoint (p. 443, n.79), he remains unaware that the whole text is a pudgalavada exposition, and so he endeavors to translate it in conformity with basic Buddhist doctrines, which, in fact, largely works. 2. Being a thorough scholar, he heavily annotates his translation, noting the many places where the text is difficult to read, but also: 3. Compares it to the "short" version, recognizing that the two texts are related. 4. Searches for parallels or contextual information in other Buddhist texts, most notably the Abhidharmako"sa and Ya"somitra's -vyakya, Pali sources, and various abhidharma treatments. 5. He tries to reconstruct the Sanskrit in various places. 6. It's fun to watch an accomplished translator wrestle with a difficult text. Unfortunately, the passage that I translated and distributed earlier to the list, and on which Stephen commented, is not part of the section Hurvitz dealt with, so he offers no help with that. On another passage that we have discussed, one which bore on how to read xiang (as nimitta or samjna) in these texts as well as in the Ch translations of Vasumitra by Paramartha and Xuanzang, Hurvitz does provide some further data, although, if his data is correct, what he offers adds an additional complication. The one passage he did recognize as Sammitiya concerned dividing the Dar"sana-maarga into 12 rather than (as is found in some other systems) 16 moments. It turns out that at this point the text also lists the items which were in question (k.santi, naama, etc.). Hurvitz in the aforementioned footnote translates this Vasumitra passage from Xuanzang: XZ: "These very acquiescence [=k.santi -DL], names and signs, and supreme mundane dharma..." For Paramartha he skips that line and begins, unfortunately, at the following line. What is new is that he includes a transcription of the Tibetan translation of Viniitadeva's commentary on that line, which he translates this way: "Now the basic positions of the school of the Vatsiputriyas are as follows... (the practictioner), having properly entered into acquiescence (bzod pa, k.santi), names and signs, and the supreme (mundane) dharma..." But the Tibetan he cites lacks, as far as I can tell, anything in the place of "signs." It reads (I am adding the Sanskrit equivalents in parentheses): bzod pa (k.saanti) dang (ca) ming (naama) dang (ca) chos kyi mchog (dharmotthama = laukikaagrya-dharma) rnams (plural marker) ... So we have the terms for k.santi, naama and laukikaagriya-dharma, but nothing in the third place (precisely the xiang that was in dispute in our discussion). I don't have a copy of the Tibetan text of Vinitadeva to check whether this is merely an inadvertent omission by Hurvitz, or an accurate transcription of the Tibetan text. Does anyone have that text on hand to tell us? Dan Lusthaus From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Tue Dec 12 16:26:14 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue Dec 12 16:24:45 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <003801c71e40$00867320$b6339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <007501c71e44$eb06a880$ba037257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > It's titled "The Road to Buddhist Salvation as described by Vasubhadra," > Journal of the American Oriental Society (JOAS), 87, 4, Oct-Dec 1967, > 434-486. Thanks for alerting us to this translation. I'll try and get a look at it, although possibly not this side of the New Year. > But the Tibetan he cites lacks, as far as I can tell, anything in the > place > of "signs." It reads (I am adding the Sanskrit equivalents in > parentheses): > > bzod pa (k.saanti) dang (ca) ming (naama) dang (ca) chos kyi mchog > (dharmotthama = laukikaagrya-dharma) rnams (plural marker) ... I have looked at the Tibetan translation of Vasumitra, which overall is identical to Xuanzang as might be expected. The above line in the Cone Edition microfiche copy I have reads: bzod-pa dang | ming dang | mtshan dang | chos-kyi mchog-rnams-la ... having something for the "xiang". However, the abbreviated "mtshan" looks odd on its own in prose -- it should be "mtshan-ma" (nimitta) or "mtshan-nyid (lak.sa.na). Other editions might clarify this, but as I said before, this does confirm that the "xiang" (sign) is correct rather than "xiang" (sa.mj~naa). Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Dec 13 00:07:28 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Dec 13 00:07:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pudgalavada References: <003801c71e40$00867320$b6339c04@Dan> <007501c71e44$eb06a880$ba037257@zen> Message-ID: <000d01c71e85$5afaad90$87369c04@Dan> Stephen, > bzod-pa dang | ming dang | mtshan dang | chos-kyi mchog-rnams-la ... Thanks for this emendation. > having something for the "xiang". However, the abbreviated "mtshan" looks > odd on its own in prose -- it should be "mtshan-ma" (nimitta) or > "mtshan-nyid (lak.sa.na). Other editions might clarify this, but as I said > before, this does confirm that the "xiang" (sign) is correct rather than > "xiang" (sa.mj~naa). I believe mtshan, even without an additional -ma or -nyid, can mean: naama; nimitta; raatrau (or raatri); or vya~njana. If so, like xiang, it doesn't let us narrow down between laksana and nimitta, but, as you say, it puts us in the right ballpark. Dan Lusthaus From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Dec 13 07:24:55 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Dec 13 07:25:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <1165958632.7501.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <001f01c718a5$91128910$b6339c04@Dan> <1847992009.20061210214841@gmail.com> <457D18BD.9060008@xs4all.nl> <171049726.20061211160945@gmail.com> <1165958632.7501.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45800D37.8010908@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > > Aside from a > few Indian Buddhists in the fifth and sixth centuries, just about all > Buddhist philosophy is anti-foundationalist; this is especially the case > with Madhyamaka, but hardly less so of other schools. > And yet these supposedly antifoundationalist Buddhists persist in believing in ghosts, demons, nagas, hell realms, heaven realms, out of the body experiences, telepathy, astrology, oracular divination, Gods, Goddesses, past life memories, etc. Not to mention Right and Wrong. Just last week I attended the opening ceremony of a new Tendai Buddhist Temple in the Washington DC area. It was about as postmodernist as a Baptist prayer meeting. I think the resemblance between postmodernism and "actual" Buddhism is more apparent than real. - Curt P.S. Madhyamaka philosophy, as everyone knows, originally comes from the Snake People who live below the earth. From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Dec 13 07:49:39 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Dec 13 07:49:56 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <1904581735.20061211213015@gmail.com> References: <1904581735.20061211213015@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45801303.3000006@cola.iges.org> Benito Carral wrote: > On Monday, December 11, 2006, Jack wrote: > > >>> marxist-oriented Westerners feel attracted by >>> postmodern reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism >>> > > >> If I remember correctly, you have used the phrase >> "postmodern reinterpretations" before. What do you >> mean by it? >> > > Postmodern reinterpretations of traditional Buddhism > are characterized because they project on the tradition > the "truth is a social construction (relative)" and > "good and bad are social constuctions (relative)" > postmodern ideals. For example, they could possibly > agree with Peter Singer that "right sexual conduct" > could include sexual intercourse with pets. > > Marxism and postmodernism are mortal enemies. Marxism lives and dies by the metanarrative of the "class struggle". What Benito really seems to be most concerned with is neither Marxism nor Postmodernism, but just good old fashioned Libertinism. Now, the grand daddy of all Postmodernists was the openly Libertine Michel Foucault. But most of the people who today spout postmodernist jargon would probably move nervously to the other side of the street if they ever saw Foucault coming towards them. Marxists can obviously no longer be blamed for much of anything anymore. Capitalism rules supreme in the world today and Capitalism is the most amoral ideology ever invented. - Curt From bcarral at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 08:56:37 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Wed Dec 13 11:18:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <45801303.3000006@cola.iges.org> References: <1904581735.20061211213015@gmail.com> <45801303.3000006@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1099093506.20061213165637@gmail.com> On Wednesday, December 13, 2006, Curt wrote: > Marxism and postmodernism are mortal enemies. Marxism > lives and dies by the metanarrative of the "class > struggle". What Benito really seems to be most > concerned with is neither Marxism nor Postmodernism, > but just good old fashioned Libertinism. Now, the > grand daddy of all Postmodernists was the openly > Libertine Michel Foucault. I'm really concerned with the old good traditional values. Of course, Libertinism is a powerful enemy, but most of today hedonism is based on postmodern principles --postmodernism is a smart justification for the old human lust. You are right about the inherent antagonism between old marxism and postmodernism, however the new cultural marxism uses postmodern principles in order to destroy the traditional religious societies. Then, cultural marxists think, the Happy New World would spring by itself. You can easily see how all these things relate reading, for example, a gender feminist book. There you can read about Gramsci (1891-1937), Freud (1856-1939), Foucault (1926-1984). > Marxists can obviously no longer be blamed for much > of anything anymore. Capitalism rules supreme in the > world today and Capitalism is the most amoral > ideology ever invented. Cultural marxism and socialisms are all arounds us and use capitalism to achieve their goal. Capitalism is amoral, not immoral, so the problem is hedonist capitalism. It's interesting to read: _Reum Novarum: Encyclical of Pope Leo XII on Capital and Labor:_ http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Dec 13 22:07:04 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Dec 13 22:07:14 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: <45800D37.8010908@cola.iges.org> References: <8110050990.20061205140615@gmail.com> <1165958632.7501.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45800D37.8010908@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200612132207.04449.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 13 December 2006 07:24, curt wrote: > And yet these supposedly antifoundationalist Buddhists persist in > believing in ghosts, demons, nagas, hell realms, heaven realms, out of > the body experiences, telepathy, astrology, oracular divination, Gods, > Goddesses, past life memories, etc. Such beliefs have no bearing on epistemological foundationalism. Foundationalism has to do with how one claims that one's beliefs are justified, not with what one believes. > Just > last week I attended the opening ceremony of a new Tendai Buddhist > Temple in the Washington DC area. It was about as postmodernist as a > Baptist prayer meeting. Ceremonies are ceremonies. There is nothing especially pre-modern, modern or post-modern about the ceremonies themselves. There could, of couse, be varieties of interpretations of what the ceremnies signify. > I think the resemblance between postmodernism and "actual" Buddhism is > more apparent than real. As I said, there are many forms of Buddhism. Many of the intellectual traditions of Indian Buddhism share features with what some people nowadays call postmodernism. As I have said, I don't have much enthusiasm for the term myself, but I have some understanding of what some people mean when they use it,and what they are describing does fit much of Indian Buddhism rather well. Benito's remarks suggest to me that everything he dislikes about what he calls postmodernism is found in abundance in early Buddhism. What he really seems to despise is Indian Buddhism. He seems to prefer some version of neo-Confucianism with a dab of Sino-Buddhist parfum behind the ears. I can't say as I blame him. I don't much like Indian Buddhism myself anymore. The older I get, the less what Buddhists called the highest good (parama-artha) appeals to me and the more I strongly value the things that Buddhists tended to dismiss as lesser goods (samv.rti-satya). The most honest way to deal with my tastes, I think, is to acknowledge that Buddhism does not much interest me these days; that is preferable to trying to make Buddhism over in my own image, as Benito is wont to try to do. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From joy at vrienstrad.com Thu Dec 14 00:47:43 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Dec 14 00:47:51 2006 Subject: Tathagatism Re: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life References: <200612132207.04449.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: Bonjour buddha-l, Cordialement, Joy Vriens joy@vrienstrad.com 14/12/2006 Votre message: ----- De : Richard Hayes ? : Buddhist discussion forum Date : 2006-12-13, 22:07:04 Sujet : [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life >On Wednesday 13 December 2006 07:24, curt wrote: > >> And yet these supposedly antifoundationalist Buddhists persist in >> believing in ghosts, demons, nagas, hell realms, heaven realms, out of >> the body experiences, telepathy, astrology, oracular divination, Gods, >> Goddesses, past life memories, etc. > >Such beliefs have no bearing on epistemological foundationalism. >Foundationalism has to do with how one claims that one's beliefs are >justified, not with what one believes. > >> Just >> last week I attended the opening ceremony of a new Tendai Buddhist >> Temple in the Washington DC area. It was about as postmodernist as a >> Baptist prayer meeting. > >Ceremonies are ceremonies. There is nothing especially pre-modern, modern or >post-modern about the ceremonies themselves. There could, of couse, be >varieties of interpretations of what the ceremnies signify. > >> I think the resemblance between postmodernism and "actual" Buddhism is >> more apparent than real. > >As I said, there are many forms of Buddhism. Many of the intellectual >traditions of Indian Buddhism share features with what some people nowadays >call postmodernism. As I have said, I don't have much enthusiasm for the term >myself, but I have some understanding of what some people mean when they use >it,and what they are describing does fit much of Indian Buddhism rather well. > >Benito's remarks suggest to me that everything he dislikes about what he calls >postmodernism is found in abundance in early Buddhism. What he really seems >to despise is Indian Buddhism. He seems to prefer some version of >neo-Confucianism with a dab of Sino-Buddhist parfum behind the ears. I can't >say as I blame him. I don't much like Indian Buddhism myself anymore. The >older I get, the less what Buddhists called the highest good (parama-artha) >appeals to me and the more I strongly value the things that Buddhists tended >to dismiss as lesser goods (samv.rti-satya). The most honest way to deal with >my tastes, I think, is to acknowledge that Buddhism does not much interest me >these days; that is preferable to trying to make Buddhism over in my own >image, as Benito is wont to try to do. Buddhism interests me, because of my past, because it was the angle from which I first started to really reflect on life and so it is always there as a sort of reference point, but I can't say I would call myself a Buddhist. To be a Buddhist one seems to have to carry along too much history and culture and I don't need any culture or history to drag along. It would be more accurate if I called myself a Tathagatist, because basically it is the "tathagata" that seems to interest me and that I imagine I recognise in the teachings of the various Buddhist and non-Buddhist traditions. When I was first introduced into Buddhism, I was explained that the Tathagata was just another name for the Buddha. So when I read texts wherein the Buddha himself talked about the Tathagata I thought he was a bit weird and that he was suffering from Julius Caesar's disease. Later I explained this weird feature as a consequence of the canon being compiled by others in times where the Buddha had become a god or a superman. Now I know that the Buddha was simply talking about the tathagata, an atemporal mode AKA nirvana, the deathless etc. I see all Buddhist traditions and even many non-Buddhist traditions as centered on or more or less directly gravitating around "tathagata", because I like to make everything over in my own deepest image, where the only thing "own" is that I reify and approriate it when I make it into an object. That those suffering from dhaatuphobia relax, the tathagata isn't ontic if they want it that way. Joy From joy at vrienstrad.com Thu Dec 14 00:55:38 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Dec 14 00:55:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ch'an in the gospels? References: <200612132207.04449.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: I read this yesterday: Ponce Pilate demande : Quid est veritas ? Qu'est-ce que la v?rit?? J?sus r?pond : Est vir quid adest ! C'est l'Homme ici pr?sent ! Ponce Pilate asks: Quid est veritas ? What is truth? Jesus answers : Est vir quid adest! The man that is present here! BTW I didn't check whether it is actually written like this in the latin translation of the bible, but it is written as an anagram. And making everything over in my own image I am convinced that when Jesus talked about truth and the kingdom of heaven and all that, he was talking about the tathagata. Theosophically yours, Joy From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 14 04:01:31 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 14 04:00:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ch'an in the gospels? References: <200612132207.04449.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000e01c71f6f$393f5030$c5097257@zen> Joy Vriens wrote: > Ponce Pilate asks Pilate might have been a ponce as well, but we write his name Pontius. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 14 06:49:42 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu Dec 14 06:49:52 2006 Subject: Tathagatism Re: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life In-Reply-To: References: <200612132207.04449.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <45815676.7090102@xs4all.nl> Joy Vriens schreef: > Bonjour buddha-l, > > > Cordialement, > > Joy Vriens > joy@vrienstrad.com > 14/12/2006 > > Votre message: > > ----- > De : Richard Hayes > ? : Buddhist discussion forum > Date : 2006-12-13, 22:07:04 > Sujet : [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life > > > > > >> On Wednesday 13 December 2006 07:24, curt wrote: >> >> >>> And yet these supposedly antifoundationalist Buddhists persist in >>> believing in ghosts, demons, nagas, hell realms, heaven realms, out of >>> the body experiences, telepathy, astrology, oracular divination, Gods, >>> Goddesses, past life memories, etc. >>> >> Such beliefs have no bearing on epistemological foundationalism. >> Foundationalism has to do with how one claims that one's beliefs are >> justified, not with what one believes. >> >> >>> Just >>> last week I attended the opening ceremony of a new Tendai Buddhist >>> Temple in the Washington DC area. It was about as postmodernist as a >>> Baptist prayer meeting. >>> >> Ceremonies are ceremonies. There is nothing especially pre-modern, modern or >> post-modern about the ceremonies themselves. There could, of couse, be >> varieties of interpretations of what the ceremnies signify. >> >> >>> I think the resemblance between postmodernism and "actual" Buddhism is >>> more apparent than real. >>> >> As I said, there are many forms of Buddhism. Many of the intellectual >> traditions of Indian Buddhism share features with what some people nowadays >> call postmodernism. As I have said, I don't have much enthusiasm for the term >> myself, but I have some understanding of what some people mean when they use >> it,and what they are describing does fit much of Indian Buddhism rather well. >> >> Benito's remarks suggest to me that everything he dislikes about what he calls >> postmodernism is found in abundance in early Buddhism. What he really seems >> to despise is Indian Buddhism. He seems to prefer some version of >> neo-Confucianism with a dab of Sino-Buddhist parfum behind the ears. I can't >> say as I blame him. I don't much like Indian Buddhism myself anymore. The >> older I get, the less what Buddhists called the highest good (parama-artha) >> appeals to me and the more I strongly value the things that Buddhists tended >> to dismiss as lesser goods (samv.rti-satya). The most honest way to deal with >> my tastes, I think, is to acknowledge that Buddhism does not much interest me >> these days; that is preferable to trying to make Buddhism over in my own >> image, as Benito is wont to try to do. >> > > Buddhism interests me, because of my past, because it was the angle from which I first started to really reflect on life and so it is always there as a sort of reference point, but I can't say I would call myself a Buddhist. To be a Buddhist one seems to have to carry along too much history and culture and I don't need any culture or history to drag along. It would be more accurate if I called myself a Tathagatist, because basically it is the "tathagata" that seems to interest me and that I imagine I recognise in the teachings of the various Buddhist and non-Buddhist traditions. > > When I was first introduced into Buddhism, I was explained that the Tathagata was just another name for the Buddha. So when I read texts wherein the Buddha himself talked about the Tathagata I thought he was a bit weird and that he was suffering from Julius Caesar's disease. Later I explained this weird feature as a consequence of the canon being compiled by others in times where the Buddha had become a god or a superman. Now I know that the Buddha was simply talking about the tathagata, an atemporal mode AKA nirvana, the deathless etc. > > I see all Buddhist traditions and even many non-Buddhist traditions as centered on or more or less directly gravitating around "tathagata", because I like to make everything over in my own deepest image, where the only thing "own" is that I reify and approriate it when I make it into an object. That those suffering from dhaatuphobia relax, the tathagata isn't ontic if they want it that way. > > Joy > > Couldn't it be that tathagata just comes from the Pali word tatagata, which means the man who drives a Tata? Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 14 11:58:58 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 14 11:59:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Dear comrades, er um, denizems: Benito has made the interesting claim that most Westerners are Marxists. (I guess that would explain why Germany, France, the UK, Australia, Canada, Israel and the USA all have elected right-wing governments.) Dennis Lingwood, founder of the Western Buddhist Order and a social and political conservative, has observed with some alarm that the majority of Western Buddhists are political leftists. James Coleman has surveyed Buddhist converts (not asian Buddhist immigrants) in the USA and found that 96% identify themselves as politically left of center. For years and years I have found the terms "left" and "right" and "liberal" and "conservative" unhelpful and almost meaningless. None of those terms unambiguously capture how I would identify myself or most people whose political and social views I know about. Some political scientists in the UK have devised a new way of discussing political orientation. It places people on a graph with two axes. The x-axis plots where a person stands on economic issues; left of 0.0 indicates favoring government control of corporations, as well as favoring tax-supported healthcare, education and social programs, while right of 0,0 indicates favoring free trade and minimal governmental regulation and low taxation. The y-axis indicates where one stands on governmental social regulation; above 0,0 indicates a tendency toward authoritarian policy, while below 0,0 indicates libertarian policy. If you visualize a standard two-axis graph and imagine four quadrants, here is where some well-known figures would fall according to these political scientists: NW (authoritarian communist): Pope Benedict, Stalin, Kim Jongil, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez. NE (authoritarian free-market liberals): Hitler, Olmert, Bush, Chirac, Blair, Thatcher, Howard, Harper and Merkel. SW (libertarian communist): Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dalai Lama XIV. SE (libertarian free-market liberal): Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Thomas Freedman. Denizens of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to accept it, is to take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and 71% libertarian and therefor in the same sector as Gandhi, HHDL and Mandela, although consideraby more to the left than any of them. This would put me pretty solidly in the sector of folks that Benito sees as Buddhists in dire need of reform and cure, perhaps even of inquisition. My company in this sector, in addition o HHDL, would probably be Thich Nhat Hanh and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. My high communist score would explain why I tend to get along pretty well with Unitarians, Quakers and anabaptists, and the high libertarian score would explain why I am so allergic to lamas, swamis, gurus, roshis, priests, rabbis, imams, deans and departmental chairs. I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From Jackhat1 at aol.com Thu Dec 14 12:23:24 2006 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 14 12:24:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: In a message dated 12/14/2006 1:02:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, rhayes@unm.edu writes: I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! economic: -1.5 social: -4.1 I found many of the questions poorly worded. For instance, one question is whether "Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity." One could be strongly against the establishment and still find a peace with it. Jack -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061214/8d0614ac/attachment.html From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 14 12:37:08 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 14 12:37:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms Message-ID: <200612141237.08913.rhayes@unm.edu> After taking the political compass questionnaire, be sure to take the little quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/iconochasms --- you may be surprised to learn which of your cultural heroes and villains despised Jews, praised Hitler and Mussolini and Chairman Mao, spoke ill of Mexicans, recommended the castration of homosexuals, and sternly warned against the frivolity of listening to or making music. (Haven't all these topics been discussed on buddha-l during the past year? In act, haven't I myself been accused of all those crimes by fellow denizens?) http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From l.k.starner at larc.nasa.gov Thu Dec 14 12:47:56 2006 From: l.k.starner at larc.nasa.gov (Lawrence K. Starner) Date: Thu Dec 14 12:46:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: Economic Left/Right: -3.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.31 -- Just to the right, of Ghandi -- Larry Starner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > Richard Hayes > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:59 PM > > If you visualize a standard two-axis graph and imagine four > quadrants, here is > where some well-known figures would fall according to these political > scientists: > > NW (authoritarian communist): Pope Benedict, Stalin, Kim Jongil, > Fidel Castro, > Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez. > > NE (authoritarian free-market liberals): Hitler, Olmert, Bush, > Chirac, Blair, > Thatcher, Howard, Harper and Merkel. > > SW (libertarian communist): Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dalai Lama XIV. > > SE (libertarian free-market liberal): Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Thomas > Freedman. > > Denizens of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to > accept it, is to > take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to > report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his > research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) > > My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and > 71% libertarian > and therefor in the same sector as Gandhi, HHDL and Mandela, although > consideraby more to the left than any of them. > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From tbovee at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 12:52:33 2006 From: tbovee at gmail.com (Tim Bovee/Datni LLC) Date: Thu Dec 14 12:53:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: On 12/14/06, Richard Hayes wrote: > I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! Fascinating. Reminds a bit of a less elaborate test, "The World's Smallest Political Quiz", that the Libertarians were promoting a few years back. As an unaffiliated American Buddhist dilettante of several decades standing (yes, one of those), I came out slightly less libertarian and economically left than the Dalai Lama. Economic Left/Right: -4.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.92 Tim Bovee, Washington, D.C. tbovee@gmail.com | http://www.daypoems.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061214/90d72c68/attachment.htm From joy at vrienstrad.com Thu Dec 14 12:56:50 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Dec 14 12:57:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: >SW (libertarian communist): Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dalai Lama XIV. >I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside >on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! Economic Left/Right: -7.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77 Which places me among Gandhi and DLIX, but unlike them I would never accept to govern or have authority over others. I think we need another axis or dimension. Joy From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Dec 14 14:10:45 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu Dec 14 14:11:09 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4581BDD5.6040709@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > NW (authoritarian communist): Pope Benedict, Stalin, Kim Jongil, Fidel Castro, > Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez. > > > > Hugo Chavez has more popular support than any current leader of any nation in Europe, North American, Australia or New Zealand (for some reason, white people and the nations they control are always assumed to be the standard by which "democracy" must be measured.) Chavez' popular support can be measured objectively and directly by the number of people who vote for him and the number of times he has been elected to office. By placing Chavez in the same category as Stalin, the Pope and Kim Jongil, are you trying to suggest that this new system is just as meaningless as the old "left-right" dichotomy? As Oscar Wilde pointed out long ago, the only "measurement" that really counts is who would you want to hang out with at a party? - Curt From bialick at usit.net Thu Dec 14 13:01:27 2006 From: bialick at usit.net (bialick@usit.net) Date: Thu Dec 14 14:42:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: <14401606.1166126487834.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Economic Left/Right: -8.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92 > >I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside >on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! > >http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire From bcarral at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:28:31 2006 From: bcarral at gmail.com (Benito Carral) Date: Thu Dec 14 14:42:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <565537808.20061214212831@gmail.com> On Thursday, December 14, 2006, Richard Hayes wrote: I think that it's a quite limited and biased measuring system (for example, it fails to differentiate between Pope Benedict XVI and Mamoud Abbas), but here my numbers go: Economic Left/Right: -2.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.49 This place me quite close to Pope Benedict XVI (what it's true) --and quiete close to Mamoud Abbad (what it's not true). Best wishes, -- Benito Carral Asturias, Sepharad (Spain) From net3431 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 14 13:10:11 2006 From: net3431 at yahoo.com (paul bennett) Date: Thu Dec 14 14:42:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <20061214201011.13893.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Economic Left/Right: -6.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.59 (right smack on top of gandhi) And I thought I was a hardass Richard Hayes wrote: Dear comrades, er um, LURKERS: LURKERS of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to accept it, is to take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and 71% libertarian and therefor in the same sector as Gandhi, HHDL and Mandela, although consideraby more to the left than any of them. This would put me pretty solidly in the sector of folks that Benito sees as Buddhists in dire need of reform and cure, perhaps even of inquisition. My company in this sector, in addition o HHDL, would probably be Thich Nhat Hanh and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire -- Paul Bennett net3431@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061214/9ebcc8d9/attachment-0001.html From tony at starve.org Thu Dec 14 14:43:14 2006 From: tony at starve.org (Tony Trigilio) Date: Thu Dec 14 14:51:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4581C572.3040609@starve.org> I'm a little less communist than you, Richard, and a little more libertarian: Economic Left/Right score: -7.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian score: -8.56 I'm pretty squarely in your quadrant, which explains my similar allergy to deans and department chairs, and my allergy to Benito's overgeneralizations about Buddhism, postmodernism, and values. It explains, too, why I stopped grading final papers to take the survey . . . Tony Trigilio Columbia College Chicago Richard Hayes wrote: >Dear comrades, er um, denizems: > >Benito has made the interesting claim that most Westerners are Marxists. (I >guess that would explain why Germany, France, the UK, Australia, Canada, >Israel and the USA all have elected right-wing governments.) Dennis Lingwood, >founder of the Western Buddhist Order and a social and political >conservative, has observed with some alarm that the majority of Western >Buddhists are political leftists. James Coleman has surveyed Buddhist >converts (not asian Buddhist immigrants) in the USA and found that 96% >identify themselves as politically left of center. > >For years and years I have found the terms "left" and "right" and "liberal" >and "conservative" unhelpful and almost meaningless. None of those terms >unambiguously capture how I would identify myself or most people whose >political and social views I know about. > >Some political scientists in the UK have devised a new way of discussing >political orientation. It places people on a graph with two axes. The x-axis >plots where a person stands on economic issues; left of 0.0 indicates >favoring government control of corporations, as well as favoring >tax-supported healthcare, education and social programs, while right of 0,0 >indicates favoring free trade and minimal governmental regulation and low >taxation. The y-axis indicates where one stands on governmental social >regulation; above 0,0 indicates a tendency toward authoritarian policy, while >below 0,0 indicates libertarian policy. > >If you visualize a standard two-axis graph and imagine four quadrants, here is >where some well-known figures would fall according to these political >scientists: > >NW (authoritarian communist): Pope Benedict, Stalin, Kim Jongil, Fidel Castro, >Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez. > >NE (authoritarian free-market liberals): Hitler, Olmert, Bush, Chirac, Blair, >Thatcher, Howard, Harper and Merkel. > >SW (libertarian communist): Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dalai Lama XIV. > >SE (libertarian free-market liberal): Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Thomas >Freedman. > >Denizens of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to accept it, is to >take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to >report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his >research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) > >My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and 71% libertarian >and therefor in the same sector as Gandhi, HHDL and Mandela, although >consideraby more to the left than any of them. This would put me pretty >solidly in the sector of folks that Benito sees as Buddhists in dire need of >reform and cure, perhaps even of inquisition. My company in this sector, in >addition o HHDL, would probably be Thich Nhat Hanh and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. My >high communist score would explain why I tend to get along pretty well with >Unitarians, Quakers and anabaptists, and the high libertarian score would >explain why I am so allergic to lamas, swamis, gurus, roshis, priests, >rabbis, imams, deans and departmental chairs. > >I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside >on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! > >http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire > > > From jmp at peavler.org Thu Dec 14 15:18:48 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Thu Dec 14 15:18:58 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <4581C572.3040609@starve.org> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> <4581C572.3040609@starve.org> Message-ID: If you want my political views get your self a big gun and come take 'em from me. (I'm a wild assed western cowboy just like my hero George the lesser.) Jim Peavler jmp@peavler.org From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 14 15:39:01 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 14 15:38:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <200612141237.08913.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00a101c71fd0$a741bb70$2930cece@charlie> Gandhi's prejudices and likes were a big surprise-I already knew he was a dictator with his family. I got the Ike & Nixon ones right, also Ben Franklin, but missed out on some of the nefariousness of Jefferson. However, the question about music being a no-no wasn't so accurate because it's also a no-no for Buddhist monks. That question only allowed one answer--Quakers. (While Quaking, they could have had so much more divine fun if they'd been Quaking to music.) Joanna =========== > After taking the political compass questionnaire, be sure to take the > little > quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/iconochasms --- you may be > surprised > to learn which of your cultural heroes and villains despised Jews, praised > Hitler and Mussolini and Chairman Mao, spoke ill of Mexicans, ........ From cshaw at gmavt.net Thu Dec 14 15:40:41 2006 From: cshaw at gmavt.net (Christopher Shaw) Date: Thu Dec 14 16:04:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists References: <20061214201011.13893.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003001c71fd0$e26a62b0$0201a8c0@chris> Economic 7.25 Libertarian 6.10 Chris Shaw ----- Original Message ----- From: paul bennett To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Economic Left/Right: -6.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.59 (right smack on top of gandhi) And I thought I was a hardass Richard Hayes wrote: Dear comrades, er um, LURKERS: LURKERS of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to accept it, is to take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and 71% libertarian and therefor in the same sector as Gandhi, HHDL and Mandela, although consideraby more to the left than any of them. This would put me pretty solidly in the sector of folks that Benito sees as Buddhists in dire need of reform and cure, perhaps even of inquisition. My company in this sector, in addition o HHDL, would probably be Thich Nhat Hanh and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire -- Paul Bennett net3431@yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061214/9f0dbccd/attachment.html From alex at chagchen.org Thu Dec 14 16:28:48 2006 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Thu Dec 14 16:29:31 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <005601c71fd7$9ca50a80$0200000a@Tsogyal> Economic Left/Right: -4.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.85 AW From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Dec 14 17:24:47 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Dec 14 17:24:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists References: <20061214201011.13893.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c71fdf$6db84770$fe017257@zen> Economic Left/Right: -8.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00 Stephen Hodge PS: Has it ocurred to anybody that this site may be a clever way of collecting data on people for identification and subsequent treatment a la Carral in this surveillance society of ours ? How do you know that you are *really* not identifiable by participating ? From Jackhat1 at aol.com Thu Dec 14 17:56:03 2006 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 14 17:56:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: The results might tell us more about the political views of academics than the political views of Buddhists. It might be that academics of all liberal arts disciplines might be very similar as compared with, for example, those in business as I am and Buddhism has nothing to do with it. Jack -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061214/4dec0418/attachment.htm From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Dec 14 17:58:40 2006 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu Dec 14 17:58:52 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141901.kBEJ1xFm016338@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200612141901.kBEJ1xFm016338@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <4581F340.8050601@virginia.edu> Dear Buddha-L While on the topic of political views, what do American Buddhists think of universal health care? It is a topic that came up at the very end of a class, so we didn't have time to discuss it (some background: I am an Italian who has lived in the States for the past 15 months and the question came up in a class that I TA for). Alberto Todeschini (-7.25,-7.59) From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 14 20:19:41 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 14 20:20:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <4581BDD5.6040709@cola.iges.org> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> <4581BDD5.6040709@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200612142019.41751.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 14 December 2006 14:10, curt wrote: > By placing Chavez in the same category as Stalin, the Pope and Kim > Jongil, are you trying to suggest that this new system is just as > meaningless as the old "left-right" dichotomy? Not at all. Chavez is economically to the left, and he is quite authoritarian in that he is pretty intolerant of those who do not share his views. (Or do you think that calling Bush "el diablo" and imprisoning political dissidents betokens tolerance?) In those two dimensions--economic communitarianism and authoritarianism--- Se?or Ch?vez has much in common with Castro, Stalin and Mao. And, yes, the Pope. Quite a few of the people in that NW quadrant would surely hate each other. Being in the same quadrant does not guarantee mutual love and affection; being an authoritarian pretty much guarantees hate and suspicion. And being an authoritarian is not at all antithetical to being democratically elected. People do elect strong authoritarian leaders, even tyrants. Speaking of democracy, I once heard a talk by the Cuban ambassador. Some well-scrubbed well-heeled boorish right-wing student twit asked him when Cuba would ever hold free elections. The ambassador took a long draw on his cigar and said "Every Cuban household has a gun. Every day we do not kill Castro, he is elected." -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From Bshmr at aol.com Thu Dec 14 20:20:34 2006 From: Bshmr at aol.com (Bshmr@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 14 20:20:47 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: Economic Left/Right: -6.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.56 Well, I seem to be part of the covey for 'western buddhists' of buddha-l, but likely not of the Brooks' persuasion. Does anyone stick out like a 'sore thumb'? Or, imagine their score to be other than it is? Anyone trying for some ideal score or association? Richard Basham -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061214/a71397ce/attachment.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 14 20:30:31 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 14 20:30:38 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612142030.31342.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 14 December 2006 17:56, Jackhat1@aol.com wrote: > The results might tell us more about the political views of academics than > the political views of Buddhists. In the United States the vast majority of Buddhists are highly educated, and many are academics or writers or artists. My guess is that Asian Buddhists would be much less communistic-libertarian than all those who have reported to buddha-l have been. Hell, I don't even have to guess. I know from my own experience that Asian Buddhists tend to have social and political views that make their Western co-religionists cringe. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 14 20:52:07 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 14 20:52:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms In-Reply-To: <00a101c71fd0$a741bb70$2930cece@charlie> References: <200612141237.08913.rhayes@unm.edu> <00a101c71fd0$a741bb70$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <200612142052.07929.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 14 December 2006 15:39, jkirk wrote: > Gandhi's prejudices and likes were a big surprise-I already knew he was a > dictator with his family. Hey! No fair giving away the answers. The whole fun of taking the quiz is to be taken by surprise. One of my colleagues surprised me recently by thrusting a copy of George Orwell's interview of Gandhi-ji into my hands, in which the Mahatma told George that the Jews in Europe should have committed mass suicide to shame Hitler. Good idea, Gandhi-ji! Committing suicide would have saved their lives for sure. > I got the Ike & Nixon ones right, also Ben > Franklin, but missed out on some of the nefariousness of Jefferson. Jefferson was a really complicated guy. Any man who sells his library to pay off his huge wine bill and who fathers children by a black slave as he writes treatises about the cultural and psychological inferiority of Negroes is liable to say or do almost anything. Hardly any American (except Mark Twain) has said more that I agree with than Jefferson, and no one who has said as much as I agree with has said more that I disagree with than Jefferson. I'm glad he loved his wine though. But for his fondness for good wine we might not have the Library of Congress. > However, the question about music being a no-no wasn't so accurate because > it's also a no-no for Buddhist monks. That question only allowed one > answer--Quakers. (While Quaking, they could have had so much more divine > fun if they'd been Quaking to music.) As you know, there were several Utopian communities started up by American Quakers who preferred ecstatic dancing to stoic silence. Several American Quaker women got rhythm, went pentecostal, declared themselves to be the second coming of Christ and gathered communities of slavishly devoted followers. There is a whole chapter on them in Sydney Ahlstrom's Religious History of the American People. If Buddhists ever discovered music, God help us all, eh? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 14 23:18:55 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 14 23:18:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <200612141237.08913.rhayes@unm.edu><00a101c71fd0$a741bb70$2930cece@charlie> <200612142052.07929.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <008001c72010$e66da760$2930cece@charlie> > > If Buddhists ever discovered music, God help us all, eh? > > -- > Richard Hayes =========== They already have.....in China..... choral singing too. Not chanting either. I wonder if it was influenced by Christian hymn-singing. But I have no idea what it sounds like. Perhaps someone on the list will tell us more about it. Joanna From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Dec 14 23:52:15 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu Dec 14 23:52:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <200612141237.08913.rhayes@unm.edu><00a101c71fd0$a741bb70$2930cece@charlie><200612142052.07929.rhayes@unm.edu> <008001c72010$e66da760$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <00ba01c72015$8f370c20$19339c04@Dan> > > If Buddhists ever discovered music, God help us all, eh? > > > > -- > > Richard Hayes > =========== > They already have.....in China..... choral singing too. Not chanting either. > I wonder if it was influenced by Christian hymn-singing. But I have no idea > what it sounds like. Perhaps someone on the list will tell us more about it. > Joanna Muzak. Dan Lusthaus From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 15 00:51:59 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 15 00:52:09 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <00ba01c72015$8f370c20$19339c04@Dan> Message-ID: RH >> > If Buddhists ever discovered music, God help us all, eh? JK >> They already have.....in China..... choral singing too. Not chanting >either. >> I wonder if it was influenced by Christian hymn-singing. But I have no >idea >> what it sounds like. Perhaps someone on the list will tell us more about >it. DL >Muzak. Buddhists have discovered music a long time ago (at least if one considers Tibetan Buddhists Buddhists and their music music. In my pr?vioius career as a Tibetan Buddhist I learned to play all the instruments of the Tibetan philharmonic orchestra. And Dan, we are waiting for your results. I would like to know what you learned from those marxist horses. ;-) Joy From espen.ore at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 01:36:46 2006 From: espen.ore at gmail.com (Espen S. Ore) Date: Fri Dec 15 01:37:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <45825E9E.7090002@gmail.com> Richard Hayes skrev 14.12.2006 19:58: > Denizens of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to accept it, is to > take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to > report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his > research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) > > My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and 71% libertarian > My score is not so very different - a little less communist, a little less libertarian: -8.13, -6.92 Espen Ore Oslo, Norway From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Dec 15 01:52:57 2006 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Dec 15 01:53:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <00ba01c72015$8f370c20$19339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <177401c72026$6b940fa0$19339c04@Dan> > > And Dan, we are waiting for your results. I would like to know what you learned from those marxist horses. ;-) > Joy It's a bogus test, Joy. Notice that virtually no one occupies the bottom-right quadrant. However the Western Republican states in the US are filled with economically right-wing but socially libertarian folks (they want no govt intervention in ANYTHING), and that sort of popularism has always had a significant following in the states, and, perhaps in somewhat smaller measure, in Europe. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popularism ) That Olmert -- who is a moron, a mediocre politician, an inept leader, and who was elected on a platform of promising to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank in the next two years (that was before Hizbollah precipitated the recent war, so that's now off the table) -- should end up virtually in the identical space as Hitler also suggests that the way they are classifying "heroes" leaves a lot to be desired as well. Like most other buddha-lers, however, I ended up in the vicinity of Gandhi and Mandela, neither of whom I would want to spend any time with at a party. Dan Lusthaus From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 15 02:38:25 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 15 02:38:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <177401c72026$6b940fa0$19339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan wrote: >It's a bogus test, Joy. Notice that virtually no one occupies the >bottom-right quadrant. However the Western Republican states in the US are >filled with economically right-wing but socially libertarian folks (they >want no govt intervention in ANYTHING), and that sort of popularism has >always had a significant following in the states, and, perhaps in somewhat >smaller measure, in Europe. It's not a serious test, but that's true for all tests I think. I think the bottom line of the rejecton of govt intervention often is that they (those who can pay for the goodies of gvt inttervention) don't want to pay for it. Before W's election, I read that he wanted to withdraw state help and give a bigger role to charities (it was part of compassionate conservatism). If you look at how help after disasters, even common issues like help for the homeless, working poor etc. or simply funding for schools, prisons, hospitals is becoming more and more private, including in Europe, the only genuin role considered acceptable for a state seems to be "security"/control in the largest sense of the word. Extremely worrying. >That Olmert -- who is a moron, a mediocre politician, an inept leader, and >who was elected on a platform of promising to unilaterally withdraw from the >West Bank in the next two years (that was before Hizbollah precipitated the >recent war, so that's now off the table) -- should end up virtually in the >identical space as Hitler also suggests that the way they are classifying >"heroes" leaves a lot to be desired as well. I agree that may not be an innocent move. And if it isn't I don't like that equation. But in general I don't like it when people are either idolised or demonised at a "safe" and comfortable distance from where we stand. Hitler became Hitler because he was given the means. I think there are a lot of potential Hitlers on this earth (cf Hannah Ahrend). And what to think of a Madeleine Albright and all those who think in terms of figures and percentages? ("4 Who, commenting on the deaths of more than half a million children, said I think that this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it?") Certainly, there may be a context, but for some things the context shouldn't even be considered. >Like most other buddha-lers, however, I ended up in the vicinity of Gandhi >and Mandela, neither of whom I would want to spend any time with at a party. Yes I think there is always something extreme in any great figure, because to make a certain point and to get a certain message across or action done, you may have to betray that message or action by giving it more volume etc. and you must believe in interventionism of course. Joy From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 15 02:51:55 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri Dec 15 02:52:09 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4582703B.3020303@xs4all.nl> Richard Hayes wrote: > I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow denizens reside > on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and take the test! > > http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire > > My score is: Economic -8.13 Social -6.14 Regards Erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 15 05:56:58 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri Dec 15 05:57:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] historical maps of Asia Message-ID: <45829B9A.7020105@xs4all.nl> Denizens some of you may be familiar with this site, but others may not. The site http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/schwartzberg/ offers some detailed historical maps of Asia. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From Jackhat1 at aol.com Fri Dec 15 06:05:35 2006 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 15 06:05:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: In a message dated 12/14/2006 9:32:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, rhayes@unm.edu writes: > The results might tell us more about the political views of academics than > the political views of Buddhists. In the United States the vast majority of Buddhists are highly educated, and many are academics or writers or artists. My guess is that Asian Buddhists would be much less communistic-libertarian than all those who have reported to buddha-l have been. Hell, I don't even have to guess. I know from my own experience that Asian Buddhists tend to have social and political views that make their Western co-religionists cringe. ====== I was making the distinction between highly educated Western Buddhists who are academics and highly educated Western Buddhists who are not. Most of the people on this list are academics. I was wondering if an important variable affecting the test results was academia not Buddhism. In my mind Asian Buddhists could be called Devotion Buddhists. Western Buddhists could be split into Academic Buddhists and Meditation Buddhists. It is my impression that these categories are mainly exclusive. This is not to say that any of these categories is the true Buddhism or better than the others. And, of course, there are some people who don't fit into any one category, for example, an Asian Buddhists who meditates and is a academic. Each category would have a different viewpoint on social and economic issues. Jack -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061215/75048bfe/attachment.htm From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 15 06:27:12 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri Dec 15 06:27:27 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01c72015$8f370c20$19339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <4582A2B0.1060301@xs4all.nl> Joy Vriens schreef: > Buddhists have discovered music a long time ago (at least if one considers Tibetan Buddhists Buddhists and their music music. > In my pr?vioius career as a Tibetan Buddhist I learned to play all the instruments of the Tibetan philharmonic orchestra. > > And Dan, we are waiting for your results. I would like to know what you learned from those marxist horses. ;-) > > > Let's be honest Joy, you wouldn't call that puja noise music, would you? In my previous Buddhist career I visited Rumtek where the 16th Karmapa lived and discovered that there was an underground culture of folk music. People gathered secretely in hideaway places to listen to the local fluteplayer and singer. Music was a no-no in this Tibetan Buddist world, because it leads the mind away from the dharma. -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 15 07:10:42 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 15 07:10:59 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms References: <4582A2B0.1060301@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hoi Erik, >Let's be honest Joy, you wouldn't call that puja noise music, would you? >In my previous Buddhist career I visited Rumtek where the 16th Karmapa >lived and discovered that there was an underground culture of folk >music. People gathered secretely in hideaway places to listen to the >local fluteplayer and singer. Music was a no-no in this Tibetan Buddist >world, because it leads the mind away from the dharma. That's not my experience. I was in Rumtek the year the 16th Karmapa died. At one point two traveling muscians (Westerners living in India) came by. They called themselves Himala Chu chu Re. A simple armchair was placed in front of the temple for the at that point very ill Karmapa to sit on and watch the show, surrounded by all the monks of Rumtek. It was a very pleasant moment and I enjoyed the simplicity and joy of it, including the Karmapa's who was happy as a child. He explained jokingly that those two artists must have been part of the birds he used to keep. But that was probably a moment of rest and relaxation. When I stayed at Kalu Rinpoche's monastery at Sonada, the young monks would come to puja in the evening, wearing jeans under their robes. As soon as the puja ended, they got rid of the robes and went into town to watch Bollywood movies. Sometimes they were caught and got beaten with a stick by the master of disciplin. They also told me there was a special police in Darjeeling that would look out for monks in theaters and bring them back to the monastery. Joy From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Dec 15 08:29:43 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Dec 15 08:30:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612142019.41751.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> <4581BDD5.6040709@cola.iges.org> <200612142019.41751.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4582BF67.5030609@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > On Thursday 14 December 2006 14:10, curt wrote: > > >> By placing Chavez in the same category as Stalin, the Pope and Kim >> Jongil, are you trying to suggest that this new system is just as >> meaningless as the old "left-right" dichotomy? >> > > Not at all. Chavez is economically to the left, and he is quite authoritarian > in that he is pretty intolerant of those who do not share his views. (Or do > you think that calling Bush "el diablo" and imprisoning political dissidents > betokens tolerance?) I guess it depends on one's definition of Authoritarian. Anarchists/Libertarians tend to view ALL government as inherently Authoritarian. I just think that someone who holds elected office in a constitutional democracy cannot be conflated with Stalin and Kim Jong Il. Actually, Authoritarianism has multiple subcomponents. In particular one can readily differentiate between "social/cultural" authoritarianism and "political" authoritarianism. For example, the de' Medici's in Florence were politically athoritarian, but were culturally libertarian - and the infamous Savonarola was a populist or even a "democrat" after a sort, but one of his first acts after overthrowing the de' Medici's was to increase the penalty for sodomy from a fine to the death sentence. Frederick II was also culturally libertarian but politically authoritarian. > > Speaking of democracy, I once heard a talk by the Cuban ambassador. Some > well-scrubbed well-heeled boorish right-wing student twit asked him when Cuba > would ever hold free elections. The ambassador took a long draw on his cigar > and said "Every Cuban household has a gun. Every day we do not kill Castro, > he is elected." > > There's a lot to that! It also happens to be the reason why the United States has never attempted a replay of the Bay of Pigs. - Curt From joy at vrienstrad.com Fri Dec 15 09:58:13 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Dec 15 09:58:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] OT Build your own meditation device References: Message-ID: Google has opened a new searching service to search through patents http://www.google.com/patents. Surprisingly there seem to be some 276 patents for various meditation devices and aids, and this is just for the English language (do a search on meditation). And these are devices for which the designer and builder actually went through the trouble of depositing a patent! Now we know what a lot of meditators think of when meditating. I especially recommend this one: Abstract A meditation enhancing apparatus is provided. The apparatus is a head covering which is made of a highly conductive metal such as copper. The head covering or helmet has several ports which are adapted to hold crystals, the ports being connected to conduits. The conduits serve to hold the crystals in position directly in front of the user's eyes and temples, as well as to conduct electromagnetic and other energy to the user's brain. The user may select crystals which have been effective in enhancing previous meditation sessions for placement in the device. http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6205589&id=Cw4FAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=meditation Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Dec 15 10:49:31 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Dec 15 10:49:41 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Iconochasms In-Reply-To: <177401c72026$6b940fa0$19339c04@Dan> References: <00ba01c72015$8f370c20$19339c04@Dan> <177401c72026$6b940fa0$19339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <200612151049.31641.rhayes@unm.edu> On Friday 15 December 2006 01:52, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > It's a bogus test, Joy. Notice that virtually no one occupies the > bottom-right quadrant. However the Western Republican states in the US are > filled with economically right-wing but socially libertarian folks (they > want no govt intervention in ANYTHING), and that sort of popularism has > always had a significant following in the states, and, perhaps in somewhat > smaller measure, in Europe. I'm not sure what you mean that nobody is in that quadrant? Nobody on buddha-l? Or do you mean there are no names in that quadrant on the website? I suspect that may be because few people who think that way run for office and become famous. Therefore, nobody occupies that quadrant but Ayn Rand. The last politician in the USA to be for deregulation of everything, individual and corporate, was probably Barry Goldwater in 1964. Also to be borne in mind is that the website is managed in the UK, and they may not be as painfully aware of all the anti-government libertarian rednecks in the western part of the USA. > That Olmert -- who is a moron, a mediocre politician, an inept leader, and > who was elected on a platform of promising to unilaterally withdraw from > the West Bank in the next two years (that was before Hizbollah precipitated > the recent war, so that's now off the table) -- should end up virtually in > the identical space as Hitler also suggests that the way they are > classifying "heroes" leaves a lot to be desired as well. I don't know. Just about everyone in that NE quadrant is a moron, a mediocre politician and an inept leader. In that respect, Olmert seems to fit right in with George W. Bush, Hitler, Chirac, Stephen Harper and John Howard. Yes, their policies may differ, but they all get similar scores on the moron index. > Like most other buddha-lers, however, I ended up in the vicinity of Gandhi > and Mandela I have been a little surprised at how just about everyone but Benito has landed in the same quadrant. Does this tell us anything about Western people who poke around the edges of Buddhism, or does it only tell us who survives on buddha-l? -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From wbodman at austinseminary.edu Fri Dec 15 15:00:05 2006 From: wbodman at austinseminary.edu (Whitney Bodman) Date: Fri Dec 15 15:03:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: political test In-Reply-To: <200612151751.kBFHpEOv005285@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200612151751.kBFHpEOv005285@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: Since someone demanded that lurkers reveals their scores, I will delurk and confess to -5.63 and -5.28. Since most of us are in the double negative quadrant, does that make us negative? Is true sunyata in the center, or is that mindlessness? Will the Buddhologists comment? Whit Bodman > > Richard Hayes wrote: >> I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow >> denizens reside on the Political Compass graph. So drop what >> you're doing and take the test! >> >> http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire >> >> > My score is: > Economic -8.13 > Social -6.14 > > Regards > Erik > > > I have been a little surprised at how just about everyone but > Benito has > landed in the same quadrant. Does this tell us anything about > Western people > who poke around the edges of Buddhism, or does it only tell us who > survives > on buddha-l? > > -- > Richard P. Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > Whitney S. Bodman Ass't Professor of Comparative Religion Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary 100 E. 27th St. Austin, TX 78705 512 404-4835 (o) 512 289-3205 (c) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061215/927bd305/attachment.html From RonLeifer at aol.com Fri Dec 15 15:18:43 2006 From: RonLeifer at aol.com (RonLeifer@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 15 15:18:56 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: political test Message-ID: Ron Leifer Economic left/right -5.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -5.33 Just about where HHDL ranks which is fine with me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061215/8c18b1b0/attachment.htm From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 15 16:46:33 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 15 16:46:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] OT Build your own meditation device References: Message-ID: <001d01c720a3$409baa10$2930cece@charlie> Abstract A meditation enhancing apparatus is provided. The apparatus is a head covering which is made of a highly conductive metal such as copper. The head covering or helmet has several ports which are adapted to hold crystals, the ports being connected to conduits. The conduits serve to hold the crystals in position directly in front of the user's eyes and temples, as well as to conduct electromagnetic and other energy to the user's brain. The user may select crystals which have been effective in enhancing previous meditation sessions for placement in the device. http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6205589&id=Cw4FAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=meditation Joy ============================ Oh boy! Just in time for Xmas. My shopping spree has reached its ultimate conclusion. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/586 - Release Date: 12/13/2006 6:13 PM From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 15 17:46:09 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 15 17:46:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Atman/Anatman Message-ID: <00b201c720ab$93e47d70$2930cece@charlie> On atman,anatman debate: Sue Hamilton's book entitled Early Buddhism: A New Approach, The I of the Beholder (published by Curzon in 2000). Any views on the quality of this book? Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 15 17:48:47 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 15 17:48:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: H-ASIA: Position: Buddhist Studies Professorship, Oxford University Message-ID: <00c701c720ab$f23ba4c0$2930cece@charlie> Perhaps one or two of our most brilliant members might like to apply? Joanna ============================================= > H-ASIA > December 15, 2006 > > > Position: Numata Professorship of Buddhist Studies, University of Oxford > ************************************************************************ > From: H-Net Job Guide: > > University of Oxford - Professorship of Buddhist Studies > > Location: United Kingdom > Institution Type: College/University > Position Type: Full Professor > Submitted: Thursday, December 14th, 2006 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Main Category: Religious Studies > Secondary Categories: None > > > UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD > > NUMATA PROFESSORSHIP OF BUDDHIST STUDIES > > Applications are invited for the above post, tenable with effect from 1 > October 2007, or such date as may be arranged. This new professorship has > been created by means of a generous donation from the Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai > (BDK) of Tokyo, held in trust by Balliol College, and is named after the > BDK's founder, Mr Yehan Numata. The University interprets Buddhist Studies > widely, to include all historical fields and all relevant academic > disciplines; expertise in at least two of the canonical languages of > Buddhism is expected. A non-stipendiary fellowship at Balliol College is > attached to the professorship. > > Applications (ten copies, or one only from overseas candidates), naming > three persons who have agreed to act as referees on thisi occasion, should > be received not later than Monday 5 February 2007 by the Registrar, > University Offices, Wellington Square, Oxford OX1 2JD, from whom further > particulars may be obtained (telephone 0-1865 270200). Further particulars > may also be accessed on the Web (http:/www.admin.ox.ac.uk/fp/). > > > Contact Info: > The Registrar > University of Oxford > University Offices > Wellington Square > Oxford > OX1 2JD > United Kingdom From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri Dec 15 20:07:29 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg) Date: Fri Dec 15 20:07:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] OT Build your own meditation device In-Reply-To: <001d01c720a3$409baa10$2930cece@charlie> References: <001d01c720a3$409baa10$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <3858.137.132.80.35.1166238449.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> My friend once twisted my arm to fork out nearly US$50 on a one inch purple aluminium (I think) disc that is suppose to channel harmless energy away and open chakras thereby enhancing my meditation and life. Anyone interested? I'm willing to let it go for a mere US$30 just so that it may benefit more beings. Yup... there *IS* a sucker born every minute. W.F. Wong > Abstract > A meditation enhancing apparatus is provided. The apparatus is a head > covering which is made of a highly conductive metal such as copper. The > head > covering or helmet has several ports which are adapted to hold crystals, > the > ports being connected to conduits. The conduits serve to hold the crystals > in position directly in front of the user's eyes and temples, as well as > to > conduct electromagnetic and other energy to the user's brain. The user may > select crystals which have been effective in enhancing previous meditation > sessions for placement in the device. > > http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6205589&id=Cw4FAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=meditation > Joy > ============================ > > Oh boy! Just in time for Xmas. My shopping spree has reached its ultimate > conclusion. > Joanna > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/586 - Release Date: > 12/13/2006 > 6:13 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Sat Dec 16 11:41:58 2006 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Sat Dec 16 11:42:08 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5029F662-709F-4B66-A18F-FA828336FB93@wheelwrightassoc.com> Economic Left/Right: -3.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.82 No wonder my consulting practice is in the tank. Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061216/0523e946/attachment.html From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Dec 16 13:10:22 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat Dec 16 13:10:29 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] OT Build your own meditation device In-Reply-To: <3858.137.132.80.35.1166238449.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> References: <001d01c720a3$409baa10$2930cece@charlie> <3858.137.132.80.35.1166238449.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <200612161310.22413.rhayes@unm.edu> On Friday 15 December 2006 20:07, wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg wrote: > My friend once twisted my arm to fork out nearly US$50 on a one inch > purple aluminium (I think) disc that is suppose to channel harmless energy > away and open chakras thereby enhancing my meditation and life. Anyone > interested? I'm willing to let it go for a mere US$30 just so that it may > benefit more beings. Those purple disks are only effective for the original buyer. There is, however, a new chartreuse disk that has transferable merit. Please send me US$20 for this valuable information. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Sat Dec 16 15:30:34 2006 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sat Dec 16 15:30:38 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <0b9b5a26910971f3b3a3bd7480c2a886@earthlink.net> Gang, My (quite pedestrian around here) scores: Economic Left/Right: -6.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.56 But I wonder what I might have scored had I not answered "I agree" to several poorly conceived and ambiguous questions. Someone (sorry, lost the post) has commented already on Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity. I add A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system. I think a good Buddhist really *must* answer yes to the first, and realistically is wise to answer yes to the second. But of course these "yesses" are by no means endorsements of "the establishment" or the "one-party state." I reckon they are *counted* as such by the test, though. So this test is a game, but, as Richard asserted, most tests are games. My qualifying exams sure were! I have to say, though, that our posted results are coming close to giving Benito some statistically significant data supporting his view that denizens of buddha-l (and, by a small extension, the entire Western World) are indeed communists. Uh-oh, I suppose I shouldn't be sending this email using my wi-fi. Franz Metcalf From pvera at health.usf.edu Sat Dec 16 16:13:08 2006 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Sat Dec 16 16:17:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Delayed Reporting of Political views of Buddhists due to email problems Message-ID: Greetings: I tried thrice to post this message and it seems that it was never delivered to the list. Thanks to Richard and Jim Peavler for pointing out the discrepancy between the email addy for my subscription, and my current one (which was recently reworded slightly by the school). Happy holidays to all. Pedro -----Original Message----- From: Vera, Pedro L. Sent: Thu 12/14/2006 3:17 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists My score: Economic Left/Right: -0.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41 However, I too found the questions poorly worded and, if parsed enough, non-sensical. At any rate, I would warn the group that self-report scores are notoriously unreliable. One possibility would be to revive objectifiable Inquisitorial or Puritanical tests, modified to detect Marxists/Communists. Thus, we could drop Marxists down wells (or submerge them in bodies of water at any rate) to see if they drown. If they drown, of course they are not Marxists and we may thus all pray for their entrance into the Pure Land. If they do not drown, they could then be further interrogated to ascertain their truly hidden "post-modernist" views and then an immunization plan (I use the term immunization to continue the metaphor of "post-modernist" views as virions) could be implemented to eradicate the infection and redeem them. By the way, being ignorant of the arcane and tortuous lingo in most of the humanities, I was puzzled as to what "post-modern" could possible mean. I could identify "modern" as whatever age we are in, "pre-modern" as whatever came before the "modern", but "post-modern"?? Is that like the ghost of Christmas Future?? I finally succumbed to the temptation to follow nonsensical information and did a Wikipedia search on the term and was surprised to find Kierkegaard (which I remembered as an existentialist), Barth (well-regarded theologian) and Thomas Kuhn (which I knew as a historian/philosopher of science) all lumped in the same category. I did not finish reading the entire Wikipedia article since it got progressively arcane, tortuous and frankly unintelligible. I walked away with my initial feeling verified as correct, that the term "post-modern" is absurd and meaningless (and one that was probably created by the Marxists/Communists to confuse the rest of us!). Of course, I realize that such an assertion might leave me open to the accusation of being an "unconscious" Marxist (or "post-modernist"??). However, now (thanks to Dr. Hayes for providing the link), I have proof (see my score above) that I am not, at least, Marxist. I do seem to have certain Libertarian (or Libertine?) tendencies that should probably be held in check. Also, as an addendum, I seem to be deviating quite a bit from the scores reported by others in the list. Happy "post-modern" holidays to all!! Pedro -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061216/7427e85e/attachment.bin From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 16 16:18:52 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 16 16:18:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> <0b9b5a26910971f3b3a3bd7480c2a886@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <009501c72168$8d2cb020$2930cece@charlie> > > Uh-oh, I suppose I shouldn't be sending this email using my wi-fi. > > Franz Metcalf -------------- Hey Franz------thanks to you, soon the feds will be busting down all our doors on an ask no questions basis. Just as they did with the poor old lady in the south who kept a shotgun handy because she lived in a criminal neighborhood. Someone told the cops she sold dope, and they busted down her door without warning. She shot at them not knowing why, or who was doing it, and they shot her back--dead. Have we all duly noticed how rapidly this episode disappeared from the news? Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun Dec 17 10:26:43 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Dec 17 10:26:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ven Maha Kassapa and the flower Message-ID: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> There's a story I read somewhere (might be in one of Thich Nhat Hanh's books) of someone asking the Buddha a question. The Buddha plucks a flower and holds it up. Mahakassapa smiles, and the Buddha says words to the effect that MK understood the point. I've probably garbled this. But I can't find this story in accesstoinsight.org in anything under Kassapa. Can someone tell me if this story is part of the Mahayana literature or is in the Pali literature, and where to find it? Thanks, Joanna From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Sun Dec 17 11:05:26 2006 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun Dec 17 11:05:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ven Maha Kassapa and the flower In-Reply-To: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> References: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <2f235665df87e037f7d69ccc00081c15@earthlink.net> Joanna et al., You won't find the Mahaakaas'yapa (I use the preferred Mahaayaana Sanskrit version here) flower story at accesstoinsight.org because its a Zen transmission story. Indeed, it's *the* paradigmatic Zen transmission story. You can find it various places, including (in chronological order) the various _Transmission of the Lamp_ collections, the _Wumenguan_, and Keizan's Denkooroku. It's the common heritage of all the Chan/Tien/Son/Zen traditions--and no other traditions, as far as I know. It is, after all, the very essence of the mind-to-mind tradition outside the scriptures. Good stuff. Incidentally, sorry if I've brought the Feds down on us with untoward words wirelessly transmitted. I keep forgetting I'm not in Canada anymore. Franz Metcalf From castanford at wb-university.org Sun Dec 17 00:17:48 2006 From: castanford at wb-university.org (castanford) Date: Sun Dec 17 11:07:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists References: Message-ID: <00c901c721ab$74a01180$1c00a8c0@microsof1150fc> x = -6.00, y = -5.79. But then I have extensive earth sciences' exposure prior to my enlightenment! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence K. Starner" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:47 AM Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists > > Economic Left/Right: -3.50 > Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.31 > > -- Just to the right, of Ghandi > > -- Larry Starner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -----Original Message----- >> Richard Hayes >> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:59 PM >> >> If you visualize a standard two-axis graph and imagine four >> quadrants, here is >> where some well-known figures would fall according to these political >> scientists: >> >> NW (authoritarian communist): Pope Benedict, Stalin, Kim Jongil, >> Fidel Castro, >> Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez. >> >> NE (authoritarian free-market liberals): Hitler, Olmert, Bush, >> Chirac, Blair, >> Thatcher, Howard, Harper and Merkel. >> >> SW (libertarian communist): Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Dalai Lama XIV. >> >> SE (libertarian free-market liberal): Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Thomas >> Freedman. >> >> Denizens of buddha-l, your assignment if you should choose to >> accept it, is to >> take the short political quiz at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ and to >> report your score back to the rest of us. (This will help Benito do his >> research into the political orientation of Western Buddhists.) >> >> My score: -8.63, -7.13 (This means I'm about 87% communist and >> 71% libertarian >> and therefor in the same sector as Gandhi, HHDL and Mandela, although >> consideraby more to the left than any of them. >> -- >> Richard Hayes >> Department of Philosophy >> University of New Mexico >> http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > From castanford at wb-university.org Sun Dec 17 00:25:50 2006 From: castanford at wb-university.org (castanford) Date: Sun Dec 17 11:07:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists References: <200612142030.31342.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00fd01c721ac$94081e40$1c00a8c0@microsof1150fc> Richard, are you or anyone else in our community keeping tract of these test responses and 'cranking' any numbers or, at least, developing a plot? I have not as I inadvertantly deleted a number of replies before I fully realized their potential worth. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists > On Thursday 14 December 2006 17:56, Jackhat1@aol.com wrote: > >> The results might tell us more about the political views of academics >> than >> the political views of Buddhists. > > In the United States the vast majority of Buddhists are highly educated, > and > many are academics or writers or artists. My guess is that Asian Buddhists > would be much less communistic-libertarian than all those who have > reported > to buddha-l have been. Hell, I don't even have to guess. I know from my > own > experience that Asian Buddhists tend to have social and political views > that > make their Western co-religionists cringe. > > > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > From upasaka at optonline.net Sun Dec 17 07:15:59 2006 From: upasaka at optonline.net (upasaka@optonline.net) Date: Sun Dec 17 11:07:30 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612142146.kBELk1BN026893@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200612142146.kBELk1BN026893@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: Hi, Jack - > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:23:24 EST > From: Jackhat1@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists > To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > In a message dated 12/14/2006 1:02:35 P.M. Central Standard > Time, > rhayes@unm.edu writes: > > > I'm eager as hell to hear reports of where my beloved fellow > denizens reside > > on the Political Compass graph. So drop what you're doing and > take the test! > > > economic: -1.5 > social: -4.1 > > I found many of the questions poorly worded. For instance, one > question is > whether "Making peace with the establishment is an important > aspect of > maturity." One could be strongly against the establishment and > still find a peace > with it. > > Jack ========================== I also was unhappy with a number of the questions. I tried to not respond to one, but that wasn't permitted. (Damn fascist test! LOL!) My score was Economic: + 1.38 (sorry, Richard! ;-), and Social: -6.56. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061217/73d45cd4/attachment.htm From jmp at peavler.org Sun Dec 17 11:15:07 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sun Dec 17 11:15:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <009501c72168$8d2cb020$2930cece@charlie> References: <200612141158.58558.rhayes@unm.edu> <0b9b5a26910971f3b3a3bd7480c2a886@earthlink.net> <009501c72168$8d2cb020$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: On Dec 16, 2006, at 4:18 PM, jkirk wrote: >> >> Uh-oh, I suppose I shouldn't be sending this email using my wi-fi. >> >> Franz Metcalf > -------------- > Hey Franz------thanks to you, soon the feds will be busting down > all our doors on an ask no questions basis. Just so. All you marxist/postmoderns are so naif. You will notice that my response to the political quiz put me in solid with Fearless Leader! It has been fun knowing you all. Jim Peavler jmp@peavler.org From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Sun Dec 17 11:27:31 2006 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun Dec 17 11:27:39 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <200612142030.31342.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200612142030.31342.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <6b45317be89e9f9cb3df18f4c77f6c8f@earthlink.net> Richard et al., > I know from my own experience that Asian Buddhists tend to have > social and political views that make their Western co-religionists > cringe. This reminds me of the first time I taught a course on the life cycle and religion at the university on Saturdays. That course attracted (and has continued to attract), for unknown reasons, an enormous number of Vietnamese American students. That first year I babbled on (with some connection to Buddhist practice) about the stupid Americans and the corrupt South Vietnamese government and oppression of the sangha and--somehow--I just didn't get a good response from my students. Only later did it occur to me that 95% of them were the children of boat people who had been part of that government and its army. Um, oops. As Richard notes, they fall into a very different quadrant from their American convert Buddhist compatriots. Franz Metcalf From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Sun Dec 17 20:03:45 2006 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Sun Dec 17 20:03:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: Okay, I'm -5.88 on economy and -4.92 on social. I expected to come out further to the right on social issues as I have a teenage son and am always talking about how homework makes you a better person, but I guess it also gets figured in that that is not working at all, which protects my credentials as a Lefty. Yours for the revolution, JWB Associate Professor John Whalen-Bridge English Language and Literature Academic Coordinator: Religious Studies Minor Program Associate Director: Centre for the Dev. of Teaching and Learning National University of Singapore 10 Kent Ridge Road Singapore 117570 http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/ellwbj/jwb/ office: +65 6516-6029 / fax: +(65) 6773-2981 Fine Print: "With our thoughts we make the world..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061218/b997500a/attachment.htm From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun Dec 17 21:02:16 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Sun Dec 17 21:02:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha prohesized abt Jesus In-Reply-To: <2f235665df87e037f7d69ccc00081c15@earthlink.net> References: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> <2f235665df87e037f7d69ccc00081c15@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Apparently the following is used by Christian missionaries working in Cambodia. http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm Merry Christmas... W.F. Wong From joy at vrienstrad.com Mon Dec 18 00:37:29 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon Dec 18 00:37:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life References: <1099093506.20061213165637@gmail.com> Message-ID: Benito wrote: > You are right about the inherent antagonism between >old marxism and postmodernism, however the new cultural >marxism uses postmodern principles in order to destroy >the traditional religious societies. Then, cultural >marxists think, the Happy New World would spring by >itself. It may be simply one of the consequences of globalisation... For an example : http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2299/ and don' forget to have a look a theChristmas Card *Proposal* http://www.spiked-online.com/CRE-Xmas-Card.htm Joy From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Mon Dec 18 06:31:04 2006 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Mon Dec 18 06:30:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ven Maha Kassapa and the flower In-Reply-To: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> References: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <45869818.9040707@arcor.de> jkirk wrote: > ... The Buddha plucks a > flower and holds it up. Mahakassapa smiles, and the Buddha says words to > the effect that MK understood the point. > ...Can someone tell me if this story is part of the Mahayana literature or > is in the Pali literature, and where to find it? Hallo Joanna, Dumoulin is saying, the first occurence of this Kasyapa-story is found in the forth Chan chronicle 'Tsung-men lien-teng hui-yao' (1183). For more recent information about the development of Chan and especially the Chan genealogical system, please have a look at: J.R. McRae, Seeing through Zen. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-1.4.2 From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Dec 18 07:17:55 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Dec 18 07:18:14 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ven Maha Kassapa and the flower In-Reply-To: <45869818.9040707@arcor.de> References: <000b01c72200$855cbbe0$2930cece@charlie> <45869818.9040707@arcor.de> Message-ID: <4586A313.9090407@cola.iges.org> M.B. Schiekel wrote: > Dumoulin is saying, the first occurence of this Kasyapa-story is found > in the forth Chan chronicle 'Tsung-men lien-teng hui-yao' (1183). For > more recent information about the development of Chan and especially the > Chan genealogical system, please have a look at: > J.R. McRae, Seeing through Zen. > > Steve Heine's "The Koan: Texts and Contexts in Zen Buddhism" has a whole chapter on this story: "Mahakasyapa's Smile: Silent Transmission and the Kung-an (Koan) Tradition" by Albert Welter. Here are a few links with more information/interpretations about this story: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/zen/flower_of_no_separation.htm http://www.ordinarymind.com/koan_honored.html http://www.kwanumzen.com/primarypoint/v13n1-1995-summer-dgzm-transmissionspeech.html http://www.everydayzen.org/teachings/talk_mumonkan6.asp - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Mon Dec 18 09:19:24 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Dec 18 09:19:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist family life References: <1099093506.20061213165637@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c722c0$488fd740$2930cece@charlie> It may be simply one of the consequences of globalisation... For an example : http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2299/ and don' forget to have a look a theChristmas Card *Proposal* http://www.spiked-online.com/CRE-Xmas-Card.htm Joy ================== The author, Mr Furedi, produced a persuasive analysis of the alleged War on Christmas, but he could have offered his views in half the length. I finally gave up. The "war" is going on here too and has managed to distract people from the real war going on in Iraq, to which it seems Bush is planning on sending 10 to 30,000 more soldiers, many to their death or dismemberment. THAT war is the real war on Christmas, whose slogan has always been Peace on Earth. And Bush claims to be a Christian? Joanna =============== _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.23/591 - Release Date: 12/17/2006 3:17 PM From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Mon Dec 18 15:31:23 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Mon Dec 18 15:31:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: <20061218223123.40374.qmail@web56401.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I lost my [politicalcompas score, and don't when I will take the test again, but I was almost on the same -x-y coordinate as the UK Green party, which was slightly more to the right economically than Ghandi but a bit more anarchistic (does that mean morally libertarian?). Mike J. Wilson "Down come the tough and big, Up comes the gentle sprig" Taoist saying "I pefer the natural sky to the opium eater's heavin." Henry David Thoureau "What time is it when the hands fall off the clock?" Zen saying __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061218/7d1a1c29/attachment.html From tycann2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 20 00:45:46 2006 From: tycann2000 at yahoo.co.uk (Tyler Cann) Date: Wed Dec 20 14:15:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: <20061220074547.94707.qmail@web86915.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I know from my own experience that Asian Buddhists tend to have > social and political views that make their Western co-religionists > cringe. Sounds about right to me. Here in Thailand, most members of the Dhammakaaya sect would probably fall slightly to the North of Rush Limbaugh... you should see some of their gruesome public displays on the 'evils' of drinking and sex. Additionally, their conversion efforts often outshine even those of the most fervent evangelical Christians. By the way my score was: Economic Left/Right: -3.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.23 Kind of disappointing. I really wanted to be in the Southeast quadrant, just to be different. And because Milton Friedman was cool. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061220/6fbf6171/attachment.html From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Dec 20 14:27:04 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Dec 20 14:27:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <20061220074547.94707.qmail@web86915.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20061220074547.94707.qmail@web86915.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4589AAA8.4070102@cola.iges.org> Tyler Cann wrote: > Milton Friedman was cool. > Milton Friedman was a truly evil man. Because of people like him and his buddy Pinochet I pray that there really is a Hell. Also (and somewhat ironically) people like them always pull me back from the precipice of moral relativism. - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 21 12:17:30 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 21 12:17:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] See the new book by Korten, THE GREAT TURNING Message-ID: <003c01c72534$a95278f0$2930cece@charlie> Plus go to this website: http://www.yesmagazine.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page Has anyone on list seen the current National Geographic magazine, Jan. 2007 issue on AMAZON. FROM FOREST TO FARMS. BATTLE TO STOP THE LAND GRAB. It's all so very depressing. We humans must get with what's happening to our planet.......Buddhists/non-Buddhists too. Joanna From tridral at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 16:08:24 2006 From: tridral at gmail.com ('o-Dzin Tridral) Date: Fri Dec 22 05:38:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] New book: Spacious Passion - The Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind to Practice Message-ID: Dear all, I am writing to let you know of a new book by my wife, Ngakma Nor'dzin Pamo. Details are below. I hope that this is of interest and considered relevant to the list. with best wishes '?-Dzin Tridral Spacious Passion by Ngakma Nor'dzin Pamo Description from http://www.lulu.com/content/493670 (from where the book may be bought) : A Buddhist book exploring the sutric teaching of 'The Four Thoughts that turn the Mind to Practice' as vividly relevant to our everyday lives: the extraordinarily precious opportunity to live as an honourable human being; the experience of impermanence that pervades our existence as an opportunity to awaken; the emotional and psychological patterning which dominates our lives (karma); and the seemingly endless cycle of dissatisfaction in which we imprison ourselves. Each chapter ends with a series of questions and answers which are both pragmatic and inspirational. Ngakma Nor'dzin has been a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism for more than twenty years. *Printed:* 255 pages, 6.14" x 9.21", perfect binding, black and white interior ink *Publisher:* Aro Books (www.arobooks.org) *Copyright:* (c) 2006 *Language:* English *Country:* United Kingdom (Great Britain) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061221/be4c0781/attachment.html From tycann2000 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 21 22:45:57 2006 From: tycann2000 at yahoo.co.uk (Tyler Cann) Date: Fri Dec 22 05:38:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: <883859.48455.qm@web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >Milton Friedman was a truly evil man. Because of people >like him and his buddy Pinochet I pray that there really >is a Hell. Umm... just because Pinochet tried to instate Friedman's theories as policy doesn't make them 'buddies.' Stalin's reign does not nullify the contribution of Marx, nor does Hitler's that of Hegel. Yes, Friedman gave lectures at the Catholic University of Chile during Pinochet's time, but they did not differ widely from those he gave in other countries, and occurred not because of Friedman's relationship with Pinochet but rather because of a long-standing exchange program between said university and the U of Chicago. Friedman only met with Pinochet once, and then only very briefly. And yes, economists of Friedman's 'Chicago School' did play a part in the implementation of Pinochet's policies, but the Chicago Boys blatantly disregarded their former mentor's prescription for political freedom. Friedman formally denounced the authoritarian regime of Chile in 1975. Say what you will about Friedman's ideas in practice, but it seems to me that no one else had the wherewithal to rescue the field of Economics from the train-wreck that was Keynesianism (Great Depression anyone?) Maybe you disagree with Friedman's quantity theory of money, even though has shown itself to be empirically blatant. OK, fine. Maybe you prefer the stranglehold fixed exchange rates hold over economies to Friedman's floating rates. Sure, good for you. Perhaps you prefer the outdated and defunct Phillips Curve to Friedman's revision thereof. Again, up to you. But to call him evil because you disagree with his theoretical efforts is a bit over-the-top. Whether right or wrong, I highly doubt Friedman, or any economist (except for Soros) is hell-bent on world domination. And even if his theory did contribute to Pinochet's regime, I don't think that qualifies him to wind up in the hell you so wish for. "Mental volition, O Bhikkhus, is what I call kamma." The Jains were pretty spot on with their criticism of the Buddhist reliance on volition when they jested that, under Buddhism, he who stabs a baby thinking it's a durian will suffer no kammic consequences. So, even if you are correct in that Friedman 'stabbed the baby', I think it's fairly certain that he thought it was a durian. - Tyler Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061222/c693022e/attachment.htm From jkirk at spro.net Fri Dec 22 20:25:11 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Dec 22 20:25:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Watching Heaven on teevee Message-ID: <000301c72641$f4d3f610$2930cece@charlie> Tonight 20/20 is on about Heaven. B Walters is the shill. I'm watching it because i heard HHDL would be among the people she interviews. Interesting montage: afte rhe intro, scene fades to a sentence featuring HEAVEN in large letters with a sentence underneath saying We will take you there, and then the word HEAVEN seqgues into the medication called ENBREL, which is followed by all the side effects you can have it you use it, followed by some peoples' idea of heaven: a gigantic Nissan pickup truck; plus an Estee Lauder cosmetics ad, then back to the program. It's going to be pretty awful, judging by the script that replaces the sound, having turned off the sound until HHDL comes on. But I pity him agreeing to be interviewed by the No1 Teevee shill of all network time, B. Walters. I wish that somehow he'd see his mission as less a question of familiarizing TV audiences with his ideas, since they are all contained in lovely books that people can read on their own minus commercials. But still, I can't pass up the chance to hear whatever he says. Joanna From joy at vrienstrad.com Sat Dec 23 02:26:44 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat Dec 23 02:26:57 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Watching Heaven on teevee References: <000301c72641$f4d3f610$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: >I wish that somehow he'd see his mission as less a question of >familiarizing TV audiences with his ideas, since they are all contained in >lovely books that people can read on their own minus commercials. But still, >I can't pass up the chance to hear whatever he says. Hi Joanna, I guess it's simply the contemporary expression of Mahaayaana prosyletism, like Vimalakiirti going into taverns, brothels etc. Joy From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 23 08:48:48 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 23 08:48:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Watching Heaven on teevee References: <000301c72641$f4d3f610$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <002201c726a9$d6585470$2930cece@charlie> >I wish that somehow he'd see his mission as less a question of >familiarizing TV audiences with his ideas, since they are all contained in >lovely books that people can read on their own minus commercials. But >still, >I can't pass up the chance to hear whatever he says. Hi Joanna, I guess it's simply the contemporary expression of Mahaayaana prosyletism, like Vimalakiirti going into taverns, brothels etc. Joy ============= Hi Joy, Taverns and brothels, eh? He wasn't alone in making such visits, but the Zen poets who wrote about such places at least were there participating rather than proselytizing. What the Dalai Lama said last night is what he usually says in such venues, and he also answered direct questions from Ms Walters. I got no sense that he was proselytizing. As the ex-leader of his country now overrun by China, am pretty sure that he feels obliged to appear in public if possible whenever requested. So its probably more a political move than otherwise. My reference to "commercials" was to my main bete noir on TV. They ruin almost any program. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: 12/19/2006 1:17 PM From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Dec 23 10:22:49 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat Dec 23 10:22:57 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <003d01c71fdf$6db84770$fe017257@zen> References: <20061214201011.13893.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <003d01c71fdf$6db84770$fe017257@zen> Message-ID: <1166894569.22469.32.camel@rhayes-laptop> On Fri, 2006-12-15 at 00:24 +0000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > PS: Has it ocurred to anybody that this site may be a clever way of > collecting data on people for identification and subsequent treatment a la > Carral in this surveillance society of ours ? How do you know that you are > *really* not identifiable by participating ? Did I forget to mention that the Political compass website is sponsored by MI5? But not to worry. Just install a copy of privoxy and tor. These are tools that enable you to surf the web without leaving telltale traces of where you have been. More to the point, they accept cookies from sites you visit but the cookies are worthless to the sites that send them to your computer. The cookies cannot be used later to send advertisements to you. This is because privoxy works by rerouting your content through a series of constantly changing web addresses. It slows down your browsing, but it does make it almost impossible for any site you have visited to find a route back to your computer. Just do an Ask.com (or Google) search for privoxy. Or go to http://tor.eff.org/ or http://tor.eff.org/ for their official websites. If you are like me, you spend a lot of time visiting Mongolian teenage Lesbian gymnast porn sites; ordering a metric tonne of anthrax-infected monkey mucous from e-Bay and FedExing it to 1600 Pennsylvania avenue; sending Christmas e-cards to Jewish and Muslim friends; hacking into the Federal reserve and diverting funds to a bogus PayPal account in order to have enough funds to play Texas Hold 'em on Uzbekistani e-casinos; shopping for plutonium on North Korean web sites; and checking into the buddha-l archives. It would make one's life unnecessarily complicated if others knew about these hobbies, so it's prudent to use private proxy software such as privoxy and tor. (Besides, Who needs all the spam that eventually comes in asking you if you need some v1@gr@ to help you deal with er3ek*yle d15function as you gaze as Mongolian teenage lesbian gymnasts?) One interesting feature of tor is that when I search Google using it, I get only German websites. Sometime during the next day or so I plan to compile the results of the political compass questionnaire and write up a bunch frivolous time-wasting fatuous comments on what MI5 and I have learned about the political views of Westerner with academic pretensions who labour under the delusion that they are Buddhists. I'll then forward this information to Benito so he can tell us what kinds of cancer we are in the Dharmakaya. (It is ever so much fun to be rectified by Benito!) One last chance to take the silly but entertaining questionnaire at http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From joy at vrienstrad.com Sat Dec 23 11:03:25 2006 From: joy at vrienstrad.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat Dec 23 11:03:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Watching Heaven on teevee References: <002201c726a9$d6585470$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Joanne wrote: >Taverns and brothels, eh? [Vimalakiirti] wasn't alone in making such visits, but the Zen >poets who wrote about such places at least were there participating rather >than proselytizing. Well, at least that is what Vimala must have told mrs Kiirti for obvious reasons of compassion. "I am off to the brothel now, dear" - "I am so proud of you, honey" >What the Dalai Lama said last night is what he usually says in such venues, >and he also answered direct questions from Ms Walters. I got no sense that >he was proselytizing. Like any bodhisattva he must have taken the vow to proselytize ;-). And what else could we call someone who publishes a book every other month? >As the ex-leader of his country now overrun by China, am pretty sure that he >feels obliged to appear in public if possible whenever requested. You're probably right. Joy From gbungo at earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 12:12:25 2006 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Sat Dec 23 12:14:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <1166894569.22469.32.camel@rhayes-laptop> Message-ID: Hi all, I took the test, and my score is Economic Left/Right: -6.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.54 I was a little disappointed that there was no neutral option for any of the questions. Oh well. Politically, Greg Bungo From jamesward at earthlink.net Sun Dec 24 05:09:15 2006 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sun Dec 24 05:09:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <1166894569.22469.32.camel@rhayes-laptop> References: <20061214201011.13893.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> <003d01c71fdf$6db84770$fe017257@zen> <1166894569.22469.32.camel@rhayes-laptop> Message-ID: <9336E775-9347-11DB-87A8-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> On Dec 23, 2006, at 9:22 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > One last chance to take the silly but entertaining questionnaire at > http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire All right, here's my two cents: Economic Left/Right: -6.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46 The graph reminds me that it has been too long since I have played a nice game of Go. Merry Christmas! (Or if that is not your cup of tea, then best wishes for peace, love, understanding and happiness, which I think is what most people mean when they say the former -- unless they simply mean "have a nice couple of days away from work", which is an admirable sentiment too.) James Ward From stephen.hopkins at ukonline.co.uk Sun Dec 24 06:53:20 2006 From: stephen.hopkins at ukonline.co.uk (Stephen Hopkins) Date: Sun Dec 24 06:54:12 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <1166894569.22469.32.camel@rhayes-laptop> Message-ID: In a seasonal spirit: Economic Left/Right: -8.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.97 Best, Steve Hopkins > > One last chance to take the silly but entertaining questionnaire at > http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire From SJZiobro at cs.com Sun Dec 24 13:59:39 2006 From: SJZiobro at cs.com (SJZiobro@cs.com) Date: Sun Dec 24 13:59:52 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists Message-ID: <24350FFD.176EF9DA.007A239A@cs.com> In some kind of spirit: Economic Left/Right: -4.563 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.41 Stephen Hopkins wrote: >In a seasonal spirit: > >Economic Left/Right: -8.50 >Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.97 > >Best, > >Steve Hopkins > > >> >> One last chance to take the silly but entertaining questionnaire at >> http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 07:39:05 2006 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Sun Dec 24 16:24:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: <1166894569.22469.32.camel@rhayes-laptop> Message-ID: I am probably an outlier here: Economic Left/Right: 1.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.49 I would agree with this assessment. In terms of social policy, I place myself as a liberal and yet I am firm believer in market-driven economic policy. I am also an active member of the Australian Liberal Party (Centre Right coalition of liberals and conservatives) as opposed to the opposition Australian Labor Party (Centre Left coalition of social democrats and socialists). By the way, I think the International Chart is a total load of crap. Robert Mugabe is VERY right wing (sexist and racist) on social policy. Ratzinger is HARDLY more socially liberal than Olmert! The Dalai Lama has let out a few homophobic corkers in the past and I am yet to hear him propose that women can attain complete buddhahood whilst born in a female body. How exactly are George Bush's economic policies more neo-liberal than John Howard?! Chirac is hardly an economic liberal! etc etc. These tests are all very amusing but all they seem to show is that these groups are somewhat more diverse than people may first assume. What would REALLY be interesting would be to look back through the wide variety of Buddhist tradition and the Buddhist texts to see how differing communities and textual traditions answer some of the questions in this survey. Antonio Ferreira-Jardim On 12/24/06, Stephen Hopkins wrote: > In a seasonal spirit: > > Economic Left/Right: -8.50 > Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.97 > > Best, > > Steve Hopkins > > > > > > One last chance to take the silly but entertaining questionnaire at > > http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sun Dec 24 18:56:13 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sun Dec 24 18:56:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Watching Heaven on teevee In-Reply-To: References: <002201c726a9$d6585470$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <6tqVk7E9+yjFFwS+@clara.net> In message , Joy Vriens writes > >And what else could we call someone who publishes a book every other >month? A publisher? -- Metta Mike Austin From clasqm at mweb.co.za Tue Dec 26 01:43:15 2006 From: clasqm at mweb.co.za (Michel Clasquin) Date: Tue Dec 26 01:43:29 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <205DDF87-388B-4A7E-8CF9-D262A4687AF5@mweb.co.za> > Hi all, > > I took the test, and my score is > > Economic Left/Right: -6.00 > Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.54 > Economic Left/Right: -5.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.21 > I was a little disappointed that there was no > neutral option for any of the questions. Oh well. Ah, but then it would be too easy to get Economic Left/Right: 0.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00 Michel From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Dec 26 11:21:47 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue Dec 26 11:21:59 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Political views of Buddhists In-Reply-To: <00fd01c721ac$94081e40$1c00a8c0@microsof1150fc> References: <200612142030.31342.rhayes@unm.edu> <00fd01c721ac$94081e40$1c00a8c0@microsof1150fc> Message-ID: <200612261121.48250.rhayes@unm.edu> On Sunday 17 December 2006 00:25, Chris Stanford wrote about the notorious http:\\www.politicalcompass.org questionnaire: > Richard, are you or anyone else in our community keeping tract of these > test responses and 'cranking' any numbers or, at least, developing a plot? The number of people who reported their scores: 29 econ social average -5.49 -5.08 median -6.25 -5.23 stdev 3.01 2.33 max 1.38 1.49 min -9.5 -8.56 If we look at the median scores, it would appear that people who reported are fairly far to the left economically (-6.25) and pretty strongly inclined toward libertarian social views (-5.23). Only a couple of people reported positive scores on the authoritarian scale, and the highest of them was a modest 1.49. Interestingly enough, the person who reported the most communistic economic score (-9.5) is a Caucasian Buddhist nun from California. (She put my miserable -8.63 to shame!) None of these results surprise me for buddha-l readers. (After all, the last time we took a questionnaire together, most of us ended up getting rather high scores on the Unitarian index. (Do you recall that annoying website at http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html where you answer 20 questions and discover with what percent of various religious persuasions you agree? That's how I discovered I am 100% in agreement with Unitarians, 95% in agreement with liberal Quakers, 89% in agreement with Theravada, 74% with Mahayana and hardly in any agreement at all with Orthodox Judaism, Islam, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism.) My guess is that on these social and political matters buddha-l readers are not awfully typical of Buddhists in the world as a whole, but are probably fairly typical of Buddhist converts (and sympathizers) from Europe and North America. (I don't know enough about Buddhists from the antipodes or from South America to have any idea of how typical the buddha-l scores might be for them.) Like many of you, I found many of the questions on the Political Compass questionnaire poorly worded and potentially misleading, and I had a difficult time answering several of them, but questionnaires always seem inadequate to me. I find most questionnaires just barely more useful than astrology, which I find slightly more than 100% useless and frivolous; I instantaneously refuse to include people who believe in astrology in the circle of all sentient beings toward whom I cultivate unconditional metta. That's probably because I'm an off-the-charts introvert and an unrepentant asshole. Does anyone happen to know of a good website that has a Naricissism Personality Disorder Index questionnaire? My guess is that many of us on buddha-l would get pretty high scores on that one. In fact, I think a Westerner with a strong interest in Buddhism is almost a Disorderly Narcissist by definition. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Wed Dec 27 20:45:46 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Dec 27 20:45:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 Message-ID: <009801c72a32$a8d6a880$2930cece@charlie> A while back I posted this book for list denizens' consideration: David Korten, _The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community_, 2006. It could be considered as a supportive counterpart to David Loy's _The Great Awakening_, an analysis of capitalist/corporate domination and psychology in Buddhist terms. I just found Korten's website, http://www.davidkorten.com/ , where you can find more on his ideas of building community in the face of the hell we live in now when getting rich, making more money, is the dominant goal. His earlier book was titled _When Corporations Rule the World_, an international bestseller that helped expose the attack on democracy and economic justice being advanced through free trade agreements and the institutions that negotiate and enforce them. I realize that some members of this list are rampant individualists and hearty capitalists, so these ideas won't speak to them, but I suspect they might be felt worthwhile by some of us. I just got an announcement that Korten will be speaking at our local Unitarian Fellowship on Jan 19th. I'll be there. Will 2007 be better than the past 6 years? Can we do anything about it? Joanna From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Dec 27 21:33:31 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Dec 27 21:33:41 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 In-Reply-To: <009801c72a32$a8d6a880$2930cece@charlie> References: <009801c72a32$a8d6a880$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <4593491B.2@cola.iges.org> jkirk wrote: > > I realize that some members of this list are rampant individualists > and hearty capitalists, Individualism and Capitalism are mutually exclusive. Capitalism, as its name implies, is a social system in which only money is valued - and everything else is valued with reference to money. In such a soul-less society individualism is merely a marketing ploy to sell carbonated beverages. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me nothing. Money suffereth long, and is kind; money envieth not; money vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money." http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/prose/KeepAspidistraFlying/index.html - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Wed Dec 27 21:50:29 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Dec 27 21:50:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] A brilliant move Message-ID: <000b01c72a3b$b2e3a950$2930cece@charlie> http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,,1979157,00.html Many though not a majority of these people are Buddhists, by the way. Joanna From gbungo at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 08:20:37 2006 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Thu Dec 28 08:20:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 Message-ID: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi, curt wrote: > >Individualism and Capitalism are mutually exclusive. Capitalism, as its >name implies, is a social system in which only money is valued - and >everything else is valued with reference to money. In such a soul-less >society individualism is merely a marketing ploy to sell carbonated >beverages. Indididualism and capitalism are certainly different, but they can overlap. In the graph with economic issues mapped horizontally, and social issues mapped vertically, capitalism is on the right, and individualism is on the bottom. So they overlap in the lower right. It's a simplistic model, but there is some truth to it. By the way, I'm not saying this to defend the excesses of capitalism. I scored in the lower left on the survey. Sincerely, Greg Bungo From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 28 08:51:28 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 28 08:51:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 In-Reply-To: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200612280851.28998.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 28 December 2006 08:20, Gregory Bungo wrote: > In the graph with economic issues mapped horizontally, and social > issues mapped vertically, capitalism is on the right, and individualism > is on the bottom. As I understand the model, the economic scale represents a person's willingness to have a government-regulated economy. The left welcomes regulation and taxation, while the right resists it. Capitalism does not occur on the chart as such. One can be a capitalist (that is, one who invests in corporations) and still be far to the left (if, for example, one welcomes governmental regulation of the corporations in which one invests). A number of Buddhists I know are capitalists who welcome corporate regulation. I think David Loy espouses a kind of governmentally regulated capitalism, as does Peter Singer. (Loy is a Buddhist; Singer might as well be.) > So they overlap in the lower right. It's a simplistic > model, but there is some truth to it. Yes, it is simplistic, but at least it is less oversimplified that the left-right and liberal-conservative false dichotomies. And it does seem to have room for Buddhists,albeit mostly in the crowded southwest quadrant. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 28 10:16:57 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 28 10:16:55 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002201c72aa3$fabf8600$2930cece@charlie> I forgot my "scores," but I was in the left of center-center of the bottom-left quarter (quartile?). Joanna ============= > Hi, > > curt wrote: >> >>Individualism and Capitalism are mutually exclusive. Capitalism, as its >>name implies, is a social system in which only money is valued - and >>everything else is valued with reference to money. In such a soul-less >>society individualism is merely a marketing ploy to sell carbonated >>beverages. > > Indididualism and capitalism are certainly different, but they can > overlap. > In the graph with economic issues mapped horizontally, and social > issues mapped vertically, capitalism is on the right, and individualism > is on the bottom. So they overlap in the lower right. It's a simplistic > model, but there is some truth to it. > > By the way, I'm not saying this to defend the excesses of capitalism. > I scored in the lower left on the survey. > > Sincerely, > > Greg Bungo > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.27/602 - Release Date: > 12/25/2006 10:19 AM > > From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 28 10:19:13 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 28 10:19:13 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200612280851.28998.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002801c72aa4$4bb05940$2930cece@charlie> Peter Singer? Pardon my ignorance but who's he and what did he write? Joanna ============ > On Thursday 28 December 2006 08:20, Gregory Bungo wrote: > >> In the graph with economic issues mapped horizontally, and social >> issues mapped vertically, capitalism is on the right, and individualism >> is on the bottom. > > As I understand the model, the economic scale represents a person's > willingness to have a government-regulated economy. The left welcomes > regulation and taxation, while the right resists it. Capitalism does not > occur on the chart as such. One can be a capitalist (that is, one who > invests > in corporations) and still be far to the left (if, for example, one > welcomes > governmental regulation of the corporations in which one invests). A > number > of Buddhists I know are capitalists who welcome corporate regulation. I > think > David Loy espouses a kind of governmentally regulated capitalism, as does > Peter Singer. (Loy is a Buddhist; Singer might as well be.) > >> So they overlap in the lower right. It's a simplistic >> model, but there is some truth to it. > > Yes, it is simplistic, but at least it is less oversimplified that the > left-right and liberal-conservative false dichotomies. And it does seem to > have room for Buddhists,albeit mostly in the crowded southwest quadrant. > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.27/602 - Release Date: > 12/25/2006 10:19 AM > From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 28 12:22:50 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 28 12:23:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 In-Reply-To: <002801c72aa4$4bb05940$2930cece@charlie> References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200612280851.28998.rhayes@unm.edu> <002801c72aa4$4bb05940$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <200612281222.52657.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 28 December 2006 10:19, jkirk wrote: > Peter Singer? Pardon my ignorance but who's he and what did he write? > Joanna He's an Australian ethicist who has worked in the UK and the USA. He has witten on animal rights and other forms of practical ethics. His book The President of Good and Evil is an entertainingly serious analysis of the Bush administration. Oddly enough, Singer tips toward the position that the Bush administration is hypocritical and morally bankrupt. (Critics of Singer say that exposing moral inconsistencies in George W. Bush is like shooting fish in a bare, but my students in reasoning and critical thinking liked him, in a tooth-gnashing sort of way.) -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 28 13:38:27 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 28 13:38:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net><200612280851.28998.rhayes@unm.edu><002801c72aa4$4bb05940$2930cece@charlie> <200612281222.52657.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002201c72ac0$214313c0$2930cece@charlie> "like shooting fish in a bare,.-you meant a bar? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 > On Thursday 28 December 2006 10:19, jkirk wrote: > >> Peter Singer? Pardon my ignorance but who's he and what did he write? >> Joanna > > He's an Australian ethicist who has worked in the UK and the USA. He has > witten on animal rights and other forms of practical ethics. His book > The President of Good and Evil is an entertainingly serious > analysis of the Bush administration. Oddly enough, Singer tips toward the > position that the Bush administration is hypocritical and morally > bankrupt. > (Critics of Singer say that exposing moral inconsistencies in George W. > Bush > is like shooting fish in a bare, but my students in reasoning and critical > thinking liked him, in a tooth-gnashing sort of way.) > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.27/602 - Release Date: > 12/25/2006 10:19 AM > > From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Dec 28 14:25:48 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Dec 28 14:25:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 In-Reply-To: <002201c72ac0$214313c0$2930cece@charlie> References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200612281222.52657.rhayes@unm.edu> <002201c72ac0$214313c0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <200612281425.48345.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 28 December 2006 13:38, jkirk wrote: > "like shooting fish in a bare,.-you meant a bar? Isn't the clich? "like shooting fish in a bear?" I guess the idea is that if the bear has eaten a lot of fish, you get not only the bear but the fish if you shoot it. Sounds like something Dick Cheney might do. By mistake. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Thu Dec 28 14:34:52 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Dec 28 14:34:45 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thoughts on action in 2007 References: <15023668.1167319237867.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net><200612281222.52657.rhayes@unm.edu><002201c72ac0$214313c0$2930cece@charlie> <200612281425.48345.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c72ac8$02b9df30$2930cece@charlie> Ho ho~~~~~ especially a grizzly bar......or baah, or beah (as in UK) ============================================= On Thursday 28 December 2006 13:38, jkirk wrote: > "like shooting fish in a bare,.-you meant a bar? Isn't the clich? "like shooting fish in a bear?" I guess the idea is that if the bear has eaten a lot of fish, you get not only the bear but the fish if you shoot it. Sounds like something Dick Cheney might do. By mistake. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.27/602 - Release Date: 12/25/2006 10:19 AM From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Fri Dec 29 19:03:38 2006 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Fri Dec 29 19:03:47 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Thoughts on action in 2007 References: <200612291900.kBTJ0GBQ016695@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: Singer's most famous book is "Animal Liberation" which argues for animal rights. Not "equal rights for animals" by any means, but rights equivalent to their capacity to suffer. He has recently written (in IHT) about philanthropy, about how much we all ought to donate, given our earnings. He received the most death threats for his calculations about the rights of embryos, which angered both pro-life and pro-choice fanatics. There's a scanner in the kitchen (only place it would fit) at the Center for Human Values at Princeton that was installed to check his mail for a while, lest someone send in an explosive package. JWB ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061230/e2548b46/attachment.htm From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Sat Dec 30 08:42:27 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Sat Dec 30 08:42:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Linden dollars for Buddha? Message-ID: <20061230154227.76936.qmail@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I registered in the Second Life virtual reality community yesterday. Using my Visa card I was automatically assigned 250 linden dollars to buy or trade virtual objects. The free linden dollars were optional, otherwise no need to use the Visa card. http://secondlife.com/whatis/ At first, entering the virtual reality space and seeing other virtual reality people, who I could stop to chat with, or fly above the landscapes and land on properties designed like shopping malls or theatres, was very exciting. I thought this was the future of online communities. I thought this is how Buddha-l will look in the future. Eventually I "teleported" to a community I found that had a buddhist theme, temples, snow gently falling, ambient sounds... and I sat inside a small temple - a sanctuary from the hussle and bussle of this busy online space - there are over 2 million virtual people. Someone made over a million dollars (real U.S. dollars) in this virtual space last year! Could this be a future for academic online meeting spaces? Not this Second Life community and it's "linden dollars" but a community using similiar software. Academics prefer paper texts, at least that is how most establish their learning base and academic credentials. Publishing and networking is another thing. But what would the Buddha-l community look like in virtual space? What clothes would they design for their virtual bodies, etc.? I sometimes think Buddha-l might be better organized as a blog, let alone something more advanced like a 3D virtual space. I have been on and off buddha-l since 1993 and not much has changed to the interface as it could still be read by a DOS user with a 1200 baud modem. After only a few hours of exploration I became jaded by what looked like an endless fantasmagora of designer clothing stores. Lacking illustration and designer skills - though tools for these exist there - I cancelled my linden dollars, my 3D virtual self (named Jungpo Whitman) and my account. If I was single and thirty years younger I'd be ready for this. I now suspect we will all have virtual reality selves in the not too distant future, and it might not be optional. Michael J. Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061230/496c4cfc/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 30 10:09:25 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 30 10:09:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Linden dollars for Buddha? References: <20061230154227.76936.qmail@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c72c35$42199490$2930cece@charlie> AAAAargh~~~~~~~~~~`We need to use whatever energy we have left to stop the virtualization of everyday life thanks to shopping malls, consumerism, and media. And W. Don't think I'd enjoy Buddha-L as a blog. Scrolling them is too often a waste of time. With the list the way it is now, one can block any email one wants to, without having to wade through it all to get to the interesting stuff, as one has to do with blogs. This deal is sort of intriguing in principle. Like for conferences? Could save lots of travel bucks. Last one I went to in Calif was so costly I decided never again. Joanna ============================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael J. Wilson To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 8:42 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] Linden dollars for Buddha? I registered in the Second Life virtual reality community yesterday. Using my Visa card I was automatically assigned 250 linden dollars to buy or trade virtual objects. The free linden dollars were optional, otherwise no need to use the Visa card. http://secondlife.com/whatis/ At first, entering the virtual reality space and seeing other virtual reality people, who I could stop to chat with, or fly above the landscapes and land on properties designed like shopping malls or theatres, was very exciting. I thought this was the future of online communities. I thought this is how Buddha-l will look in the future. Eventually I "teleported" to a community I found that had a buddhist theme, temples, snow gently falling, ambient sounds... and I sat inside a small temple - a sanctuary from the hussle and bussle of this busy online space - there are over 2 million virtual people. Someone made over a million dollars (real U.S. dollars) in this virtual space last year! Could this be a future for academic online meeting spaces? Not this Second Life community and it's "linden dollars" but a community using similiar software. Academics prefer paper texts, at least that is how most establish their learning base and academic credentials. Publishing and networking is another thing. But what would the Buddha-l community look like in virtual space? What clothes would they design for their virtual bodies, etc.? I sometimes think Buddha-l might be better organized as a blog, let alone something more advanced like a 3D virtual space. I have been on and off buddha-l since 1993 and not much has changed to the interface as it could still be read by a DOS user with a 1200 baud modem. After only a few hours of exploration I became jaded by what looked like an endless fantasmagora of designer clothing stores. Lacking illustration and designer skills - though tools for these exist there - I cancelled my linden dollars, my 3D virtual self (named Jungpo Whitman) and my account. If I was single and thirty years younger I'd be ready for this. I now suspect we will all have virtual reality selves in the not too distant future, and it might not be optional. Michael J. Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.0/610 - Release Date: 12/30/2006 2:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061230/c378b925/attachment.htm From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 30 10:37:14 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat Dec 30 10:37:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Linden dollars for Buddha? In-Reply-To: <001e01c72c35$42199490$2930cece@charlie> References: <20061230154227.76936.qmail@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <001e01c72c35$42199490$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <4596A3CA.7070608@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: > AAAAargh~~~~~~~~~~`We need to use whatever energy we have left to stop > the virtualization of everyday life thanks to shopping malls, > consumerism, and media. And W. > Don't think I'd enjoy Buddha-L as a blog. Scrolling them is too often > a waste of time. With the list the way it is now, one can block any > email one wants to, without having to wade through it all to get to > the interesting stuff, as one has to do with blogs. > This deal is sort of intriguing in principle. Like for > conferences? Could save lots of travel bucks. Last one I went to in > Calif was so costly I decided never again. > Joanna Hi Michael, I can understand why you were so excited the first time, but users tell me that at first they choose a very nice dream avatar and so the buddha-l you would be crowded with Majushri's and Vajradaikini's. But in the long run most people grow tired of their onw phantasies and end up with a sort of virtual clone of their everyday self. So at that stage we would have duplicated samsara and hte second one is even more time consuming than the first one. Think I'll pass! Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 30 10:45:09 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 30 10:45:14 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Satirical life-size watercolors at Brooklyn Museum of Art--Buddha Purnima + one more Message-ID: <000901c72c3a$408b8840$2930cece@charlie> The artist, Walton Ford, paints giant Audubon-like animals but with intentional irony lacking in Audubon. Show title is, Tigers of Wrath. Main show site at http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/tigers_of_wrath/ This pdf is an educators packet. Titled Buddha Purnima, the picture is based on a Jataka. http://tinyurl.com/yge3gz Here's another interesting one, titled Falling Bough http://tinyurl.com/yer79a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061230/504f0f20/attachment-0001.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Dec 30 12:20:01 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat Dec 30 12:20:12 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Linden dollars for Buddha? In-Reply-To: <20061230154227.76936.qmail@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <20061230154227.76936.qmail@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200612301220.02216.rhayes@unm.edu> On Saturday 30 December 2006 08:42, Michael J. Wilson wrote: > I registered in the Second Life virtual reality community yesterday. The virtual community here at buddha-l sends its virtual condolences. > I thought this is how Buddha-l will look in the future. Not if Amitabha and I have anything to do with it. We like buddha-l pretty much as it is. One thing that concerns me slightly is that the address of buddha-l is now in some huge database of addresses that spammers have access to. None of the spam that is sent to buddha-l finds its way out to the coddled readership, but the poor moderators are looking for new recipes for spam. Jim Peavler likes to cut Spam up into 1 kilogram chunks, soak it in egg, beer and flour batter, deep fry it with a few battered Mars bars, and put it into a deep-fried loaf of Italian bread. It makes a tasty sandwich but I think Jim's recipe is a hell of a waste of beer. But I digress, as is my wont. > Could this be a future for academic online meeting spaces? It is the present of academic classrooms. Increasingly I find myself lecturing to the lids of open laptops, behind which students are reading their e-mail, checking out photographs of Miss USA french-kissing Donald Trump's wife, buying and selling stocks, downloading mpeg documentaries proving that America has been governed by robots since 1957, and booking cheap flights to Bogata. The really serious students (both of them) are reading Wikipedia articles as I talk and yelling out my mistakes---things like "Hume died in 1776. You said 1775!" In the rare event that anyone actually wants to ask a question, such as "Is there going to be a surprise quiz next Monday?" (the only kind of information they cannot find on Google or Ask.com or Clusty.com), I tell them to send me a text message. (I neglect to add that I don't have a mobile phone or a Blackberry. I'm so old-fashioned that I still think of blackberries as something you put on waffles.) I've seen the present, and I don't want to live there. > I have been on and off > buddha-l since 1993 and not much has changed to the interface as it could > still be read by a DOS user with a 1200 baud modem. May this never change. I reckon if somebody is using high-speed internet connections and Windows (or the X-11 system in Linux), they are probably suffering from attention deficiency disorder and moving way too fast to be able to savor the morsels of subtle wisdom that our team of self-appointed spiritual masters are preparing for their delectation. People who use mice and menus instead of command lines need a doctor, not buddha-l. No, buddha-l is for slowpokes. In fact, Jim Peavler and I have been exploring the possibility of distributing messages by postcard and doing away with all these modems and computers. I've been reading a lot of Emerson and William James and Rufus M. Jones this past year. They all wrote beautiful sentences in long, meandering essays that take a whole afternoon to read. On a snowy winter evening, reading a bunch of ungrammatical buddha-l messages, each no longer than a badly written telegraph message, is no substitute for curling up next to the fireplace with a cup of hot Xocolatl, a purring cat, and a tattered copy of Emerson's "Representative Men." If some modern Emersonian were to send a well-crafted essay to buddha-l, it would be received with a barrage of whimpering complaints about prolixity, and a stern reprimand from Benito about speech precepts. Alas, we live in a post-literary (nd increasingly post-literate) era. As Swami Vivekananda predicted would happen, we are now living in the age of the shudra. The Buddha would have hated computers. Of this I am convinced. He didn'teven like reality much---howmuch less virtual reality. It dishonours the memory of the Best of all Bipeds to write about him by e-mail. Let's shut this damn thing down and start writing each other long letters with fountain pens and endlessly fascinating stationery. Thanks, Mr Wilson, for a thought-provoking message. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Dec 30 12:31:07 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat Dec 30 12:31:15 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-l underwear Message-ID: <200612301231.08008.rhayes@unm.edu> Dear denizens, As much as I think buddha-l (The Buddhist Discussion Forum) should remain free of commercial enterprise, I would like to draw your attention to the line of official buddha-l men's underwear called M333E-buddha-L. Check it out. (If you like them, consider buying me a pair with your linden dollars.) http://www.youniqueboutique.com/mansilk/pages/M333E-buddha-L.htm -- Richard Hayes Department of Philandery University of Nude Mexicans From s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz Sat Dec 30 15:58:28 2006 From: s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz (s.mcara@auckland.ac.nz) Date: Sat Dec 30 16:07:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] that test Message-ID: <1C89D7893B60E84E865B3027A8FBE7C10A24C9@ARTSMAIL1.ARTSNET.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> I know it's a bit late, but I only just got around to reading the last week of emails. Richard mentioned antipodeans. So here in NZ I did the test, which I agree is a bit like astrology, not much use... Anywaymy score was Economic Left/Right: -7.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74 Probably much the same as most convert buddhists I've met in Australia & NZ - at least those in the FWBO. I've also met some FPMT members and people who follow Thich Nhat Hanh. While their approaches to Buddhist practice are quite different, I'd hazard a guess that most of their political views are similar. Am also a Green Party member and environmentalist, so that probably fits the profile for many. cheers Sally McAra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061231/fa38ba20/attachment.html From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Sat Dec 30 18:39:05 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Sat Dec 30 18:39:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Linden dollars for Buddha? Message-ID: <20061231013905.27785.qmail@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi I think a 3D virtual reality portal for academics would work on occassion over conferences, for the reasons you delineate. I am intrigued with the development of this kind of software, because that is part of what my job entails, working for academics at a university. For some reason I am beginning to imagine a society where we have a virtual 3D self and identity more or less locked in, and subject to governance, as we have in our own reality. Not much room for fantasy there either. When I was in the book store today I saw a book package which was actually a set of four fold out altars to Buddhist goddesses. This could easily be made into something digital, and transportable as an illusion-like 3D virtual altar, if it isn't already. Let us login. Let us pray. Yah, that's one for the IT guy. Mike This deal is sort of intriguing in principle. Like for conferences? Could save lots of travel bucks. Last one I went to in Calif was so costly I decided never again. Joanna Hi Michael, I can understand why you were so excited the first time, but users tell me that at first they choose a very nice dream avatar and so the buddha-l you would be crowded with Majushri's and Vajradaikini's. But in the long run most people grow tired of their onw phantasies and end up with a sort of virtual clone of their everyday self. So at that stage we would have duplicated samsara and hte second one is even more time consuming than the first one. Think I'll pass! Erik __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061230/4b4e2ffe/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 30 22:58:27 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 30 22:58:31 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Linden dollars for Buddha? References: <20061231013905.27785.qmail@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004101c72ca0$b106c970$2930cece@charlie> Mike, would your virtual conference program also allow for participants to become invisible, or to beam themselves up or out, (as in Star Trek)? I've often wished for that while sitting bored to pieces at conferences. Could it even leave a proxy virtual person behind apparently in attendance, while the other one got to head for the bar or the flower market, or something? Joanna Hi I think a 3D virtual reality portal for academics would work on occassion over conferences, for the reasons you delineate. I am intrigued with the development of this kind of software, because that is part of what my job entails, working for academics at a university. For some reason I am beginning to imagine a society where we have a virtual 3D self and identity more or less locked in, and subject to governance, as we have in our own reality. Not much room for fantasy there either. When I was in the book store today I saw a book package which was actually a set of four fold out altars to Buddhist goddesses. This could easily be made into something digital, and transportable as an illusion-like 3D virtual altar, if it isn't already. Let us login. Let us pray. Yah, that's one for the IT guy. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061230/2f33d6d9/attachment.htm From jkirk at spro.net Sat Dec 30 23:02:51 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Dec 30 23:02:55 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-l underwear References: <200612301231.08008.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <004e01c72ca1$4ebaa4c0$2930cece@charlie> I clicked on Briefs and got the schockh of my life! Joanna =========================== > Dear denizens, > > As much as I think buddha-l (The Buddhist Discussion Forum) should remain > free > of commercial enterprise, I would like to draw your attention to the line > of > official buddha-l men's underwear called M333E-buddha-L. Check it out. (If > you like them, consider buying me a pair with your linden dollars.) > > http://www.youniqueboutique.com/mansilk/pages/M333E-buddha-L.htm > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philandery > University of Nude Mexicans > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.0/610 - Release Date: 12/30/2006 > 2:59 PM > > From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 31 04:39:05 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun Dec 31 04:39:09 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] For pun dits only Message-ID: <4597A159.3070306@xs4all.nl> A virtual top ten list of puns: 1. A vulture boards an airplane, carrying two dead raccoons. The stewardess looks at him and says, "I'm sorry, sir, only one carrion allowed per passenger." 2. Two fish swim into a concrete wall. The one turns to the other and says "Dam!". 3. Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too. 4. Two hydrogen atoms meet. One says "I've lost my electron," The other says, "Are you sure?" The first replies "Yes, I'm positive." 5. Did you hear about the Bu ddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? His goal: transcend dental medication. 6. A group of chess enthusiasts checked into a hotel and were standing in the lobby discussing their recent tournament victories. After about an hour, the manager came out of the office and asked them to disperse. "But why?" they asked, as they moved off. "Because," he said, "I can't stand chess-nuts boasting in an open foyer." 7. A woman has twins and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named "Ahmal." The other goes to a family in Spain; they name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his birth mother. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Ahmal. Her husband responds, "They're twins! If you've seen Juan, you've seen Ahmal." 8. These friars were behind on their belfry payments, so they opened up a small florist shop to raise funds. Since everyone liked to buy flowers from the men of God, a rival florist across town thought the competition was unfair. He asked the good fathers to close down, but they would not. He went back and begged the friars to close. They ignored hi m. So, the rival florist hired Hugh MacTaggart, the roughest and most vicious thug in town to "persuade" them to close. Hugh beat up the friars and trashed their store, saying he'd be back if they didn't close up shop. Terrified, they did so, thereby proving that only Hugh can prevent florist friars. 9. Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. This made him ..(Oh, man, this is so bad, it's good)..... A super calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis. 10. And finally, there was the person who sent ten different puns to his friends, with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh. No pun in ten did. 1) carry-on; 2) damn; 3) you can't have your cake and eat it to; 4) positive, as in electrical charge; 5) transcendental meditation; 6) chestnuts roasting over an open fire (from a Christmas carol); 7) if you've seen one, you've seen them all; 8) only you can prevent forest fires (slogan of Smokey the Bear, US Department of Forestry mascot); 9) supercalifragilist icexpialidocious, from Mary Poppins musical and movie -- see Wikipedia, here ; 10) no pun intended. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 31 04:49:22 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun Dec 31 04:49:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Linden dollars for Buddha? In-Reply-To: <20061231013905.27785.qmail@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <20061231013905.27785.qmail@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4597A3C2.6050609@xs4all.nl> Michael J. Wilson schreef: > Hi > > I think a 3D virtual reality portal for academics would work on > occassion over conferences, for the reasons you delineate. I am > intrigued with the development of this kind of software, because that > is part of what my job entails, working for academics at a university. > > For some reason I am beginning to imagine a society where we have a > virtual 3D self and identity more or less locked in, and subject to > governance, as we have in our own reality. Not much room for fantasy > there either. > > When I was in the book store today I saw a book package which was > actually a set of four fold out altars to Buddhist goddesses. This > could easily be made into something digital, and transportable as an > illusion-like 3D virtual altar, if it isn't already. > > Let us login. Let us pray. Yah, that's one for the IT guy. I know something better. I just let my virtual self do the praying. But the bugger is very smart and lazy, so he creates a virtual world with a praying avatar of him and of course this guy is smart and lazy as well, so he does the same and so on and so on. And because this is all my imagination it goes a warp speed, there's no matter involved to slow anything down and infinitisemal mathematics tells us there's a real limit here, it doesn't go on indefenitely. So there 's a bunch of guys out there doing all my prayers, as much as there are grains of sand on the banks of the Ganges. I must be in Sukhavati allready. I guess the Tibetans allready invented the principle when the made prayerwheels the turn endlessly by the force of wind or water Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 31 04:55:29 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun Dec 31 04:55:31 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-l underwear In-Reply-To: <004e01c72ca1$4ebaa4c0$2930cece@charlie> References: <200612301231.08008.rhayes@unm.edu> <004e01c72ca1$4ebaa4c0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <4597A531.6010109@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: > I clicked on Briefs and got the schockh of my life! > Joanna In that case, avoid the men's bikini's! Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jkirk at spro.net Sun Dec 31 09:45:20 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Dec 31 09:45:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-l underwear References: <200612301231.08008.rhayes@unm.edu><004e01c72ca1$4ebaa4c0$2930cece@charlie> <4597A531.6010109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001701c72cfb$0fb21150$2930cece@charlie> Yikes! ======== > jkirk schreef: >> I clicked on Briefs and got the schockh of my life! >> Joanna > In that case, avoid the men's bikini's! > > Erik > > > www.xs4all.nl/~jehms > weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.0/610 - Release Date: 12/30/2006 > 2:59 PM > > From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Dec 31 13:13:17 2006 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun Dec 31 13:13:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Human conventions Message-ID: <200612311313.17805.rhayes@unm.edu> Beloved denizens, The artificial construct of celebrating a new year on an arbitrary date demonstrates how powerful social conventions can be. It makes no sense to me at all that if the world were to explode at this very minute, then the world would have ended in 2007 in Japan and New Zealand but in 2006 in California. This is the sort of thing I worry about. Why should New Zealanders get to live an extra year? Whenever this socially constructed convention of a new year rolls around, we are all treated to retrospectives of the year gone by. For instance, even though it happened only a few days ago, we are reminded by TV commentators that 2006 was the year in which James Brown died. (Oddly, I have not yet heard an earnest news analyst remind us that 2006 was the year in which Saddam Hussein was subjected to the cruel and unusual punishment of being hanged. Maybe yesterday's events are a little too recent to deserve reminders. It has to have happened at least a week ago to belong to history.) As the photos of this year's deceased celebrities rolls by (Lou Rawls, Coretta Scott King, Betty Friedan, Gerald Ford) I find myself thinking about one of our own buddha-l denizens who left us to cope without him. Peter Junger was involved from the very beginning with the BUDDHIST and BUDDHA-L lists (which were eventually merged into a single list). In recent years he served as one of our moderators, and in this context both Jim Peavler and I had the pleasure of corresponding with him privately. He was a delightful correspondent, as I'm sure many of you also discovered. He practiced Buddhism in a nominally Pure Land temple under the guidance of the imaginative, energetic and unclassifiable Reverend Ogui. Peter practiced Buddhism, and life itself, with a pure heart and a keen and curious intellect. His messages to buddha-l invariably revealed the insight and kindness of their author. We miss him. One of the things people in the thrall of human conventions do is to make resolutions for the new year. Even I do that sort of thing about once every five years or so. My buddha-l resolution for 2007 is to try to be ironic from time to time. It really is time I stopped being so straightforward and serious. Whether you are already experiencing the delights of 2007 or have a few more hours in which to savor the bitter dregs of 2006, on behalf of the team of uncountable bodhisattvas, apsarases and mahoragas here at buddha-l headquarters in snowbound Albuquerque, I wish you all a happy and healthy new year. Please write if you become enlightened. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From bclough at aucegypt.edu Sun Dec 31 15:31:55 2006 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Sun Dec 31 15:36:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Tibetan for...? Message-ID: Dear All, I have a student who would like to make a tattoo in Tibetan for "action speaks louder than words." How would one say this in Tibetan? Thanks, Brad Clough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20061231/4998cb5c/attachment.htm