From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon May 1 03:46:48 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon May 1 03:46:49 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang Message-ID: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl> I wonder how long it will take them this time. Of course they willn't have to search for books. http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/Asia/20060422/313580.html -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 1 07:32:44 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 1 07:32:45 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> "The committee also began Friday the process of selecting members for an escort team for the two monks. Two members of this team will be monks trained in martial arts at the Shaolin Temple in Central China's Henan Province. Eight people have already embarked on a journey to India as part of the project's advance group." Sort of like launching an Olympics team.........this ain't the way XuangZhan did it. Perhaps this effort could be dubbed a "moving theme park." Joanna ============================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Hoogcarspel" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 3:46 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang >I wonder how long it will take them this time. Of course they willn't have >to search for books. > > http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/Asia/20060422/313580.html > > -- > > > Erik > > > www.xs4all.nl/~jehms > weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/327 - Release Date: 4/28/2006 > > From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Mon May 1 08:50:23 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon May 1 08:52:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl> <005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen> Joanna wrote: > Sort of like launching an Olympics team.........this ain't the way > XuangZhan did it. For extra authenticity, it should be remembered that the mortality rate for Chinese monks visiting India were very high -- in the region of 90%, if the accounts by Yijing and others are reliable ! Tibetans visiting India at that time also suffered a very high mortality rate. I read that they sent people in batches in the hope that at least one or two would survive. Must be something about India. In contrast, Indian monks who ended up in China often lived to great ages -- octogenarians, nonogenarians were not uncommon. One or two even made it past 100. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 1 09:21:31 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 1 09:21:31 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> <003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen> Message-ID: <000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie> > Joanna wrote: > >> Sort of like launching an Olympics team.........this ain't the way >> XuangZhan did it. > For extra authenticity, it should be remembered that the mortality rate > for Chinese monks visiting India were very high -- in the region of 90%, > if the accounts by Yijing and others are reliable ! Tibetans visiting > India at that time also suffered a very high mortality rate. I read that > they sent people in batches in the hope that at least one or two would > survive. Must be something about India. In contrast, Indian monks who > ended up in China often lived to great ages -- octogenarians, > nonogenarians were not uncommon. One or two even made it past 100. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge ================ This is really intriguing...........I wonder what it was about India that caused so much mortality. The climate? Did any of your reports speculate as to the reasons? Any evidence that when XuangZhang started out he was doing it with a batch of people as well? As for Tibetans, Marpa wasone who made it back--but he was one tough guy. Joanna From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Tue May 2 01:04:44 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue May 2 01:05:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen> <000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <006701c66db6$b57a6290$c9339c04@Dan> > Any evidence that when XuangZhang started out he was doing it with a batch > of people as well? > Joanna He did start with a small entrourage, but the others dropped out along the way. The last one, a guide he had picked up along the way, was planning to steal his horse and leave him to die in the wilderness. Xuanzang did almost die in the desert, saved only because after he had already passed out, his horse smelled water in the distance and brought him there. He was also almost killed by brigands. His return to India, was a grand affair, involving dozens of pack animals and attendants loaded with texts, statues, etc. A number of people have retraced Xuanzang's steps in recent years. Sally Wiggins covered some of that ground, and Richard Bernstein, a writer for the New York Times, wrote a book about his own journey, _Ultimate Journey: Retracing the Path of an Ancient Buddhist Monk in Search of Enlightenment_ . He didn't walk, but took cars, trucks, trains, etc., whenever possible. Even so, he had to skirt some of the areas covered by Xuanzang due to the current political situation (Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, Kashmir -- keep in mind that Peshawar in Pakistan, always identified by journalists as a dangerous, militant haven, was the Purushapura in Gandhara from where Asanga and Vasubandhu, among many others, hailed). There are now roads that cover the way, so it is not the forboding journey into the unknown it was during Xuanzang's day. Chinese monks have continued to make the journey overland into modern times. The famous master, Xu Yun (Empty Cloud), who lived over 130 years (died in the 1950s) traveled to India and Burma making prostrations the whole way (take a few steps, do a full body prostration, then take a few more steps, etc.). I don't think the current group will follow his example. Dan Lusthaus From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Tue May 2 01:59:46 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue May 2 02:00:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie> <006701c66db6$b57a6290$c9339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <00b301c66dbe$64f17f40$c9339c04@Dan> I should add the reminder that he couldn't take a large entrourage, nor do anything overt or official, since at that time the Emperor had refused to allow ANY travel outside China, and had turned down Xuanzang's request. Some of Xuanzang's difficulties in the early stages of the journey, in fact until he reached to frontiers. were due to trying to avoid detection by the authorities, who were apparently in pursiut of his party. Dan Lusthaus From jmp at peavler.org Tue May 2 09:06:29 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue May 2 09:06:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang In-Reply-To: <006701c66db6$b57a6290$c9339c04@Dan> References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen> <000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie> <006701c66db6$b57a6290$c9339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <494CCAB8-09AE-4CC4-A1F8-1D09FEE861B5@peavler.org> On May 2, 2006, at 1:04 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > The last one, a guide he had picked up along the way, was planning to > steal his horse and leave him to die in the wilderness. Xuanzang > did almost > die in the desert, saved only because after he had already passed > out, his > horse smelled water in the distance and brought him there. The history of the western US is full of stories of pioneers, miners, and cowsboys being saved from death from dehydration by their horses. Apparently, donkeys are even better at finding water, and some donkeys in the southwestern deserts were kept around and used especially to find water and forage. So far as I know none of the people saved in the US were Buddhist monks, however. From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 2 09:21:29 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 2 09:21:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie><006701c66db6$b57a6290$c9339c04@Dan> <00b301c66dbe$64f17f40$c9339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <001a01c66dfc$164e8a70$2930cece@charlie> >I should add the reminder that he couldn't take a large entrourage, nor do > anything overt or official, since at that time the Emperor had refused to > allow ANY travel outside China, and had turned down Xuanzang's request. > Some > of Xuanzang's difficulties in the early stages of the journey, in fact > until > he reached to frontiers. were due to trying to avoid detection by the > authorities, who were apparently in pursuit of his party. > > Dan Lusthaus Thanks for both of your posts on Zuanzang---they remind me that once again I've put off getting Wriggins's book and reading about that whole fantastic courageous epic. Joanna From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 2 13:13:43 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue May 2 13:13:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen> <000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen> Joanna wrote: > This is really intriguing...........I wonder what it was about India that > caused so much mortality. The climate? Did any of your reports speculate > as to the reasons? As far as anything is mentioned, mainly disease and snake-bites were the main causes of death. I wonder if there were diseases indigenous to India but rare or unknown in China to which the Chinese pilgrims had little or no resistance. Yijing mentions brief bigraphical details of Chinese monks who went to India around the same time as he was living there. There are about 64 of them and almost 60 had died or gone missing never to be heard of again by the time Yijing left India. After the Chinese invasion of Tibet and the subsequent flow of refugees into India, many of those Tibetans fell sick with TB to which they had not previously been exposed. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jhayes at unm.edu Tue May 2 14:39:10 2006 From: jhayes at unm.edu (Judy Hayes) Date: Tue May 2 14:39:15 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Summer seminar in Buddhism (Second call) Message-ID: <1146602350.7080.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Bodhi Manda Zen Center and the Philosophy Department at University of New Mexico are pleased to announce that the 30th annual summer seminar on Buddhism will be held this year from June 5 to June 16. If any of you have students who may be interested in attending, please pass the following information on to them. Of course, if you yourself are interested, please sign up. This year's featured scholars will be William LaFleur, John McRae and Harold Roth. Professor LaFleur's lecture series are entitled "Mere Buddhism"; Professor McRae's, "Seeing through Zen"; and Professor Roth's, "Taoist Meditation." There will also be presentations by Oshos trained by Rinzai-ji, the organization founded by Roshi Joshu Sasaki. It is possible to take the two-week seminar for academic credit, conferred by UNM and transferable to most other colleges and universities. By a special arrangement with the University of New Mexico, no tuition fees are charged for this course. In fact, it costs LESS to take this seminar for academic credit than it costs to attend as a non-student. (A non-student is a participant who is not taking the seminars for academic credit.) Cost for a student for both weeks is $750 Cost for a non-student for both weeks is $900 Cost for a non-student for one week is $500 (June 5-9 or June 12-16) Bodhi Manda Zen Center is located in a canyon in the beautiful Jemez Mountains in central New Mexico. It is located about one hour's drive northwest of Albuquerque Sunport. The meals are vegetarian. The rooms are simple but comfortable. On the property there is a natural hot spring where people can soak to their heart's content. A typical day includes Zen meditation and chanting in the morning and three class periods per day (two in the morning and one in the evening). There are ample opportunities during mealtimes or unscheduled parts of the day to chat with the lecturers and the Zen monks. The afternoons are usually unscheduled so that attendees can hike, study, meditate, soak in the hot springs, walk through the charming village of Jemez Springs or socialize. More information on the seminars and on this year's professors can be found at the website http://www.summerseminar.org , on which one can also find registration forms and ways to contact human beings who can answer any questions you may have about the seminars. One such human being is myself, reachable by e-mail at rhayes@unm.edu -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From marshallarts at bigpond.com Tue May 2 14:58:13 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Tue May 2 14:58:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie> <00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen> Message-ID: <001901c66e2b$20808320$6900a8c0@katies> There is a free download of Fa Hsien's (Xuan Zhang/Hsuan-tsang) 'Buddhist Records of Western Countries,' Book I, taken from translations by Thomas Watters (1904) and Samuel Beal (18884) available at: http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Hsien-Tsang.htm I can't remember if this is partial or complete. Regards Kate From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 2 18:02:52 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue May 2 18:02:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie><00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen> <001901c66e2b$20808320$6900a8c0@katies> Message-ID: <011201c66e44$fec32070$18454e51@zen> Kate Marshall wrote: > There is a free download of Fa Hsien's (Xuan Zhang/Hsuan-tsang) 'Buddhist > Records of Western Countries,' Book I, taken from translations by Thomas > Watters (1904) and Samuel Beal (1884) available at: Actually, Fa Hsien is Faxian, not Xuanzang/Hsuan-tsang, so this is Faxian's travelogue which is shorter than that by Xuanzang. For Faxian's accounts of the many poor Chinese monks who perished in India, you wuill need to look at his "A Record of the Eminent Monks who Sought the Dharma in the West" (Xiyu Qiufa Gaoseng Chuan). I don't know if this is available as an etext -- I don't think so. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 2 18:31:52 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 2 18:31:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope Message-ID: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/06-3om/Jensen.html Excerpts: ".....Hope is, in fact, a curse, a bane. I say this not only because of the lovely Buddhist saying "Hope and fear chase each other's tails," not only because hope leads us away from the present, away from who and where we are right now and toward some imaginary future state. I say this because of what hope is. More or less all of us yammer on more or less endlessly about hope. You wouldn't believe-or maybe you would-how many magazine editors have asked me to write about the apocalypse, then enjoined me to leave readers with a sense of hope. But what, precisely, is hope? At a talk I gave last spring, someone asked me to define it. I turned the question back on the audience, and here's the definition we all came up with: hope is a longing for a future condition over which you have no agency; it means you are essentially powerless......" ".............At one of my recent talks someone stood up during the Q and A and announced that the only reason people ever become activists is to feel better about themselves. Effectiveness really doesn't matter, he said, and it's egotistical to think it does. I told him I disagreed. Doesn't activism make you feel good? he asked. Of course, I said, but that's not why I do it. If I only want to feel good, I can just masturbate. But I want to accomplish something in the real world. Why? Because I'm in love. With salmon, with trees outside my window, with baby lampreys living in sandy streambottoms, with slender salamanders crawling through the duff. And if you love, you act to defend your beloved. Of course results matter to you, but they don't determine whether or not you make the effort. You don't simply hope your beloved survives and thrives. You do what it takes. If my love doesn't cause me to protect those I love, it's not love. A WONDERFUL THING happens when you give up on hope, which is that you realize you never needed it in the first place. You realize that giving up on hope didn't kill you. It didn't even make you less effective. In fact it made you more effective, because you ceased relying on someone or something else to solve your problems-you ceased hoping your problems would somehow get solved through the magical assistance of God, the Great Mother, the Sierra Club, valiant tree-sitters, brave salmon, or even the Earth itself-and you just began doing whatever it takes to solve those problems yourself...." "...And when you quit relying on hope, and instead begin to protect the people, things, and places you love, you become very dangerous indeed to those in power. In case you're wondering, that's a very good thing." What are we, as members of this list, or as humans, or as Buddhists maybe, doing to solve some of these problems ourselves? Do we care? or did we just give up and turn to solipsistic recourses? Joanna From marshallarts at bigpond.com Tue May 2 21:16:01 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Tue May 2 21:16:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie><00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen><001901c66e2b$20808320$6900a8c0@katies> <011201c66e44$fec32070$18454e51@zen> Message-ID: <000901c66e5f$e829cd80$6900a8c0@katies> Thanks, Stephen! Fa Hsien was known by so many different names, I assumed Xuan Zhang was yet another one. My mistake! From marshallarts at bigpond.com Tue May 2 22:30:16 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Tue May 2 22:30:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie><00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen><001901c66e2b$20808320$6900a8c0@katies> <011201c66e44$fec32070$18454e51@zen> Message-ID: <000d01c66e6a$4959abc0$6900a8c0@katies> Just re-reading your post again, Stephen. Are you saying that Xuan Zhang and Hsuan-tsang are the same person and that Fa Hsien/Faxian is someone else entirely different? Sometime ago I read two different references to 'Buddhist Records of Western Countries,' one saying that Fa Hsien was the author, the other citing Hsuan-tsang, which is why I assumed they were one and the same person. Thanks! From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed May 3 07:26:28 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed May 3 07:33:38 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie><00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen><001901c66e2b$20808320$6900a8c0@katies><011201c66e44$fec32070$18454e51@zen> <000d01c66e6a$4959abc0$6900a8c0@katies> Message-ID: <004501c66eb6$259f7bf0$98414e51@zen> Dear Kate, > Fa Hsien was known by so many different names. No, he wasn't known by so many different names -- just the one. The plethora of names for him and also Xuanzang has arisen because of the different methods of romanization that were used over the past 150 years. Some dimwitted writers don't seem to realize this -- I have seen two different versions of "Xuanzang" mentioned in one paragraph as though they were different people ! The "Yuan-chwang" one sometimes sees is still Xuanzang. > Are you saying that Xuan Zhang and Hsuan-tsang are the same person Yes, just different romanizations. Note that it is Xuanzang -- no "h" whoch would completely change the pronunciation. > Fa Hsien/Faxian is someone else entirely different? Yes, he lived amost 200 years before Xuanzang ! > Sometime ago I read two different references to 'Buddhist Records of > Western Countries,' > one saying that Fa Hsien was the author, the other citing Hsuan-tsang The problem is that there are actually two different works with very similar titles. One was by Faxian, but Xuanzang also wrote a travelogue which is much longer and more detailed than that by Faxian, I hope this helps. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From at8u at virginia.edu Wed May 3 12:20:30 2006 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Wed May 3 12:20:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang In-Reply-To: <200605031800.k43I0k7E013403@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200605031800.k43I0k7E013403@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <4458F46E.8020602@virginia.edu> Dear List, On a similar topic to the one discussed in this thread on Xuan Xhang, I have another question: did Japanese Buddhists go to India in pre-modern times? I suppose my question can be split into two: - did Japanese Buddhists try to go to India? - did they make it all the way? I remember reading that Kuukai is meant to have met an Indian teacher in Nara, though the book where I read this was more hagiographical than scholarly, so I was wondering if Japanese Buddhists undertook the reverse journey. Thanks in advance, Alberto Todeschini From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Wed May 3 14:13:41 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Wed May 3 14:13:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang (Stephen Hodge) In-Reply-To: <200605031800.k43I0k7G013403@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20060503201341.69382.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not to mention the nearly 1 million British subjects who died and were buried in India, many suffering from ill health. Mike Joanna wrote: > This is really intriguing...........I wonder what it was about India that > caused so much mortality. The climate? Did any of your reports speculate > as to the reasons? As far as anything is mentioned, mainly disease and snake-bites were the main causes of death. I wonder if there were diseases indigenous to India but rare or unknown in China to which the Chinese pilgrims had little or no resistance. Yijing mentions brief bigraphical details of Chinese monks who went to India around the same time as he was living there. There are about 64 of them and almost 60 had died or gone missing never to be heard of again by the time Yijing left India. After the Chinese invasion of Tibet and the subsequent flow of refugees into India, many of those Tibetans fell sick with TB to which they had not previously been exposed. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060503/ff1b634e/attachment.htm From marshallarts at bigpond.com Wed May 3 15:10:03 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Wed May 3 15:10:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><003601c66d2f$03b6a5f0$15f586d9@zen><000f01c66d32$ed6772d0$2930cece@charlie><00bf01c66e1c$9a289b90$18454e51@zen><001901c66e2b$20808320$6900a8c0@katies><011201c66e44$fec32070$18454e51@zen><000d01c66e6a$4959abc0$6900a8c0@katies> <004501c66eb6$259f7bf0$98414e51@zen> Message-ID: <003901c66ef5$f2896010$6900a8c0@katies> Thank you, Cyril and Stephen, for this information - it's cleared up a lot of confusion for me. Some months ago, I came across a quote by Xuanzang and was interested in chasing this up. Then with the confusion over the names, I ended up ordering a book by Fa-Hsien and couldn't work out why I couldn't find the quoted passage. At least, now I have a better chance of finding the information I am after. My thanks again! From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed May 3 18:09:36 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed May 3 18:09:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuanzang References: <200605031800.k43I0k7E013403@ns1.swcp.com> <4458F46E.8020602@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <008401c66f0f$1c021950$675b4e51@zen> Alberto Todeschini wrote: > in this thread on Xuan Xhang ... Yet, another variant spelling of the man's name. I wonder why is pinyin such a challenge for people ? You are all going to need to learn it pretty soon anyway with current Chinese economic expansion set to outpace the US in the next couple of decades, if not sooner. > - did Japanese Buddhists try to go to India? Yes. > - did they make it all the way? No. The temple in which I lived during my sojourn at Koyasan was the Shinnyo-en. It was named after Shinnyo, a disciple of Kobo Daishi. He made it as far as Kampuchea where he was attacked and killed by a tiger. The abbot of Shinnyo-in, while I was there, visited the area of Kampuchea where Shinnyo is thought to have died and erected a small memorial. However, I doubt this survived the Khmer Rouge interlude. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Thu May 4 03:05:19 2006 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Thu May 4 03:01:07 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Prof. Guenther: some essays Message-ID: <4459C3CF.5070505@arcor.de> Dear folks, a small German Buddhist publishers: Buddhistischer Studienverlag, Berlin, (that is Peter Gaeng and friends) recently has published: "Herbert Guenther, Wirbelndes Licht - Texte zur holistischen Prozessphilosophie des tibetischen Buddhismus der aelteren Ueberlieferung" This book gathers the German version of 8 essays about the early Dzogchen tradition (namely Padmasambhava), Guenther wrote in the years 1994-2002: - The Re-Cognition of Being's Infrastructure as Self-Completion, - The Complexity of the Initial Condition, - Is the Mind in Search of Itself? - Light - An Emergent Phenomenon, - Sound, Colour, and Self-Organiszation, - Mandala and/or dkyil-'khor, - The Intensity-Immensity Singularity, - The Lama -From Authenticity to Theatrics. The German translation for this edition was done by Herbert and Ilse Guenther. Might be, this was the last work, Guenther could finish. I've been asked to review this book for a German Buddhist journal. Long time ago, I've read and enjoyed Guenther's: - The Tantric view of Life, - Ecstatic Spontaneity: Saraha's Three Cycles of Doha, but his recent "Wirbelndes Licht" I find not easy to read, very complex and I encounter many questions - might be, anybody here could help me. 1. all the time Guenther speaks from the "rDzogs-chen thinkers" - is this really a valid approch to Dzogchen or isn't this focus too small? 2. very often Guenther compares the ontological dimension of Padmasambhavas "thinking" with the thinking of Heidegger? Well, is this only Guenther's view, or would you agree? 3. Guenther is seeing a strong influence of oriental gnostic ideas in Padmasambhavas writings - would you agree? 4. a central term in Dzogchen and also in Guenther's book is "rigpa". He translates rigpa with: "overconscious ecstatic intensity". Well, until now, I understood rigpa as "insight/vipassana". What do you think about "rigpa" and Guenther's view? 5. in Guenthers book, and especially in the essay "The Lama ...", I miss the word "byams-pa" (metta, loving kindness). The words "light, ecstatic, dynamic, ontic ground" are used very often. Do you think, this is the view of Guenther or the view of Padmasambhava? By the way, in the end of "The Lama ..." there are some very unkind and in my view unknowing words about the american Nyingma Lama Surya Das. Thank you for your patience and feedback, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-1.4.2 From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 4 09:42:34 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu May 4 09:42:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI--Some interesting books from an Indian publisher Message-ID: <006601c66f91$5d1a65f0$2930cece@charlie> http://www.hopeindiapublications.com/booksdsp.php?catid=5 This publisher sells books about Buddhism as well as Hinduism and other religions. Its perspective is inter-religion harmony. The well-known author Asghar Ali Engineer has a book here that explores liberation theology amongst the various religions of India (including Buddhism) and includes an article by a socialist as well. They have a deal----20% off and free shipping if one becomes a Hope India book club member. However the signup page doesn't say what being a member entails. Perhaps only more emails in inbox. Joanna From at8u at virginia.edu Thu May 4 14:32:16 2006 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu May 4 14:32:23 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] On typos, pilgrims and travellers In-Reply-To: <200605041800.k44I0MBP006232@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200605041800.k44I0MBP006232@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <445A64D0.3050509@virginia.edu> Dear Stephen, Thank you for your reply. >> in this thread on Xuan Xhang ... >> > Yet, another variant spelling of the man's name. I wonder why is pinyin > such a challenge for people ? Good question....In my case the problem is that they put the "z" next to the "x" in my keyboard. Next time I'll probably spell it Xuan \hang. While on the topic of travellers, do you know whether the Indian monk met by Kuukai in Nara was an isolated case or were there other brave Indian Buddhists who undertook the long trip to Japan? Thanking you in advance, Alberto Todeschini From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Fri May 5 00:57:56 2006 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Fri May 5 00:53:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Prof. Guenther: some essays In-Reply-To: <4459C3CF.5070505@arcor.de> References: <4459C3CF.5070505@arcor.de> Message-ID: <445AF774.9050609@arcor.de> M.B. Schiekel wrote: >> "Herbert Guenther, Wirbelndes Licht - >> Texte zur holistischen Prozessphilosophie des tibetischen Buddhismus >> der aelteren Ueberlieferung" someone asked: > Do these essays exist in English? Here the English references: Herbert Guenther: - The Re-Cognition of Being's Infrastructure as Self-Completion, International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, 2002, vol.21, - The Complexity of the Initial Condition, International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, 1997, vol.16, - Is the Mind in Search of Itself? International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, 2000, vol.19, - Light - An Emergent Phenomenon, 1999, not published, - Sound, Colour, and Self-Organiszation, International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, 1998, vol.17,1, - Mandala and/or dkyil-'khor, International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, 1999, vol.18,2, - The Intensity-Immensity Singularity, in: Dhih, Journal of Rare Buddhist Texts Research Project, 1994, vol 18, - The Lama -From Authenticity to Theatrics, in: The Cosmic Light, Spring 2001. With best wishes, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-1.4.2 From tdreitlein at poem.ocn.ne.jp Fri May 5 06:13:34 2006 From: tdreitlein at poem.ocn.ne.jp (Tom Dreitlein) Date: Fri May 5 08:02:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuanzang In-Reply-To: <008401c66f0f$1c021950$675b4e51@zen> References: <200605031800.k43I0k7E013403@ns1.swcp.com> <4458F46E.8020602@virginia.edu> <008401c66f0f$1c021950$675b4e51@zen> Message-ID: <445B416E.1030008@poem.ocn.ne.jp> Stephen Hodge wrote: > > > The temple in which I lived during my sojourn at Koyasan was the > Shinnyo-en. > It was named after Shinnyo, a disciple of Kobo Daishi. He made it as > far as > Kampuchea where he was attacked and killed by a tiger. The abbot of > Shinnyo-in, while I was there, visited the area of Kampuchea where Shinnyo > is thought to have died and erected a small memorial. However, I doubt > this > survived the Khmer Rouge interlude. Stephen, I believe you wanted to give the name of the temple you stayed at as Shinno-in, not Shinnyo-en. Shinnyo-en is, of course, an entirely different and modern entity in Japanese Buddhism and unconnected with Koyasan. Former Prince Takaoka (Takaoka Shinno), who became the monk Shinnyo, died as you say in 881. The temple is named after the title Shinno (Imperial Prince), not after his monastic name of Shinnyo. Just to jog your memory. Regards from Koyasan. Tom Dreitlein From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 7 04:57:29 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun May 7 04:57:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: > http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/06-3om/Jensen.html > > Excerpts: > ".....Hope is, in fact, a curse, a bane. I say this not only because > of the lovely Buddhist saying "Hope and fear chase each other's > tails," not only because hope leads us away from the present, away > from who and where we are right now and toward some imaginary future > state. I say this because of what hope is. > > More or less all of us yammer on more or less endlessly about hope. > You wouldn't believe-or maybe you would-how many magazine editors have > asked me to write about the apocalypse, then enjoined me to leave > readers with a sense of hope. But what, precisely, is hope? At a talk > I gave last spring, someone asked me to define it. I turned the > question back on the audience, and here's the definition we all came > up with: hope is a longing for a future condition over which you have > no agency; it means you are essentially powerless......" > > ".............At one of my recent talks someone stood up during the Q > and A and announced that the only reason people ever become activists > is to feel better about themselves. Effectiveness really doesn't > matter, he said, and it's egotistical to think it does. > I told him I disagreed. > Doesn't activism make you feel good? he asked. > Of course, I said, but that's not why I do it. If I only want to feel > good, I can just masturbate. But I want to accomplish something in the > real world. > Why? > Because I'm in love. With salmon, with trees outside my window, with > baby lampreys living in sandy streambottoms, with slender salamanders > crawling through the duff. And if you love, you act to defend your > beloved. Of course results matter to you, but they don't determine > whether or not you make the effort. You don't simply hope your beloved > survives and thrives. You do what it takes. If my love doesn't cause > me to protect those I love, it's not love. > A WONDERFUL THING happens when you give up on hope, which is that you > realize you never needed it in the first place. You realize that > giving up on hope didn't kill you. It didn't even make you less > effective. In fact it made you more effective, because you ceased > relying on someone or something else to solve your problems-you ceased > hoping your problems would somehow get solved through the magical > assistance of God, the Great Mother, the Sierra Club, valiant > tree-sitters, brave salmon, or even the Earth itself-and you just > began doing whatever it takes to solve those problems yourself...." > > "...And when you quit relying on hope, and instead begin to protect > the people, things, and places you love, you become very dangerous > indeed to those in power. In case you're wondering, that's a very good > thing." > > > What are we, as members of this list, or as humans, or as Buddhists > maybe, doing to solve some of these problems ourselves? Do we care? or > did we just give up and turn to solipsistic recourses? > Joanna Poetic and profound, Joanna. It reminds me of Albert Camus, who considered Sysiphus a wise and happy person, because he had completely given up hope. But Camus distinguished hope with a big H (esp?rance) from practical hope (espoir). The last one is OK, it makes sense to say 'I hope to see you soon' or 'I hope to finish this piece before six o'clock'. But the hope for a heaven with 72 virgins or a promised land has made more vicitims then any natural disaster so far. That's whu I gave up the hope for sukhavati. -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From curt at cola.iges.org Sun May 7 07:59:14 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Sun May 7 07:59:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <445DFD32.1050100@cola.iges.org> Is "hope and fear chase each other's tails" really an old Buddhist saying? Maybe one of the old Buddhists on this list can verify that for us? At first I thought it might just be something that Jensen read in a Hallmark card - but then I found out that he probably picked it up during a fawning interview he did with world renowned Sanskritist and authority on old Buddhist sayings Marc Ian Barasch: http://www.healingdreams.com/interview.htm . Although in one way it amounts to nothing more than "guilt by association" I think it's worth noting that Derrick Jensen takes John Zerzan seriously, and John Zerzan takes the "ideas" of Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) seriously. After all, some associations are worse than others. Here's a link to an interview of Zerzan by Jensen: http://www.altpr.org/apr12/zerzan.html (Jensen calls the interview "a meeting between two anarchists"). Jensen is part of the "lifestyle anarchism" movement - he is often labeled an "anarcho-primitivist". He is also buddies with Dave Foreman, the co-founder of the narcissistic softcore-terrorist outfit "Earth First!". Anyone who is interested in anarchism as a real political movement that has been based in the struggles of working people around the world for centuries, rather than a bunch of dilettante posers spouting doomsday histrionics and hallmarkesque platitudes, should check out the wikipedia entry for "libertarian socialism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism , Daniel Guerin's books "No Gods No Masters" http://www.akpress.org/2004/items/nogodsnomastersak , and "Anarchism" http://www.akpress.org/1996/items/anarchismguerin (with an introduction by Noam Chomsky) or the excellent collection of on-line resources at this link: http://flag.blackened.net/index.shtml - or just do a google search on "noam chomsky" or "libertarian socialism". - Curt Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > jkirk schreef: > >> http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/06-3om/Jensen.html >> >> Excerpts: >> ".....Hope is, in fact, a curse, a bane. I say this not only because >> of the lovely Buddhist saying "Hope and fear chase each other's >> tails," not only because hope leads us away from the present, away >> from who and where we are right now and toward some imaginary future >> state. I say this because of what hope is. >> >> More or less all of us yammer on more or less endlessly about hope. >> You wouldn't believe-or maybe you would-how many magazine editors >> have asked me to write about the apocalypse, then enjoined me to >> leave readers with a sense of hope. But what, precisely, is hope? At >> a talk I gave last spring, someone asked me to define it. I turned >> the question back on the audience, and here's the definition we all >> came up with: hope is a longing for a future condition over which you >> have no agency; it means you are essentially powerless......" >> >> ".............At one of my recent talks someone stood up during the Q >> and A and announced that the only reason people ever become activists >> is to feel better about themselves. Effectiveness really doesn't >> matter, he said, and it's egotistical to think it does. >> I told him I disagreed. >> Doesn't activism make you feel good? he asked. >> Of course, I said, but that's not why I do it. If I only want to feel >> good, I can just masturbate. But I want to accomplish something in >> the real world. >> Why? >> Because I'm in love. With salmon, with trees outside my window, with >> baby lampreys living in sandy streambottoms, with slender salamanders >> crawling through the duff. And if you love, you act to defend your >> beloved. Of course results matter to you, but they don't determine >> whether or not you make the effort. You don't simply hope your >> beloved survives and thrives. You do what it takes. If my love >> doesn't cause me to protect those I love, it's not love. >> A WONDERFUL THING happens when you give up on hope, which is that you >> realize you never needed it in the first place. You realize that >> giving up on hope didn't kill you. It didn't even make you less >> effective. In fact it made you more effective, because you ceased >> relying on someone or something else to solve your problems-you >> ceased hoping your problems would somehow get solved through the >> magical assistance of God, the Great Mother, the Sierra Club, valiant >> tree-sitters, brave salmon, or even the Earth itself-and you just >> began doing whatever it takes to solve those problems yourself...." >> >> "...And when you quit relying on hope, and instead begin to protect >> the people, things, and places you love, you become very dangerous >> indeed to those in power. In case you're wondering, that's a very >> good thing." >> >> >> What are we, as members of this list, or as humans, or as Buddhists >> maybe, doing to solve some of these problems ourselves? Do we care? >> or did we just give up and turn to solipsistic recourses? >> Joanna > > Poetic and profound, Joanna. It reminds me of Albert Camus, who > considered Sysiphus a wise and happy person, because he had completely > given up hope. But Camus distinguished hope with a big H (esp?rance) > from practical hope (espoir). The last one is OK, it makes sense to > say 'I hope to see you soon' or 'I hope to finish this piece before > six o'clock'. But the hope for a heaven with 72 virgins or a promised > land has made more vicitims then any natural disaster so far. That's > whu I gave up the hope for sukhavati. > From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 7 10:01:33 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun May 7 10:01:27 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Prof. Guenther: some essays In-Reply-To: <4459C3CF.5070505@arcor.de> References: <4459C3CF.5070505@arcor.de> Message-ID: <445E19DD.2030303@xs4all.nl> M.B. Schiekel schreef: >Dear folks, > >a small German Buddhist publishers: Buddhistischer Studienverlag, >Berlin, (that is Peter Gaeng and friends) recently has published: > "Herbert Guenther, Wirbelndes Licht - > Texte zur holistischen Prozessphilosophie des tibetischen Buddhismus > der aelteren Ueberlieferung" > >This book gathers the German version of 8 essays about the early >Dzogchen tradition (namely Padmasambhava), Guenther wrote in the years >1994-2002: >- The Re-Cognition of Being's Infrastructure as Self-Completion, >- The Complexity of the Initial Condition, >- Is the Mind in Search of Itself? >- Light - An Emergent Phenomenon, >- Sound, Colour, and Self-Organiszation, >- Mandala and/or dkyil-'khor, >- The Intensity-Immensity Singularity, >- The Lama -From Authenticity to Theatrics. > >The German translation for this edition was done by Herbert and Ilse >Guenther. Might be, this was the last work, Guenther could finish. > >I've been asked to review this book for a German Buddhist journal. Long >time ago, I've read and enjoyed Guenther's: >- The Tantric view of Life, >- Ecstatic Spontaneity: Saraha's Three Cycles of Doha, >but his recent "Wirbelndes Licht" I find not easy to read, very complex >and I encounter many questions - might be, anybody here could help me. > > >1. all the time Guenther speaks from the "rDzogs-chen thinkers" - is >this really a valid approch to Dzogchen or isn't this focus too small? > > I myself would prefer not to isolate these Indo-Tibetan authors from their background, allthough in the Tibetan tradition they seem to be recognised as a class apart. >2. very often Guenther compares the ontological dimension of >Padmasambhavas "thinking" with the thinking of Heidegger? >Well, is this only Guenther's view, or would you agree? > > It's not Heidegger's view anyway, I can garantee that. For him it's Seinsvergessenheit all around these days. Parmenides and Heracleitos were about the only exceptions and beyond Greece there wasn't even philosophy because everything is determined by history. >3. Guenther is seeing a strong influence of oriental gnostic ideas in >Padmasambhavas writings - would you agree? > > I don't know what you mean by gnosticism. In the strict sense it's a movement which is really historically determined, it is a kind of New Age movement in second centure Egypt. But if you merely mean a way of life directed to a liberating insight then you can lable many thinkers that way. Influnce is only proved by a line of transmission. Mere similarity is not enough, because many people can have similar ideas at different times and places. Besides there the problem that similar propositions can have different meanings in different contexts. The only solid ground IMHO is the life form, i.e. the practices and social strcutures. >4. a central term in Dzogchen and also in Guenther's book is "rigpa". He >translates rigpa with: "overconscious ecstatic intensity". >Well, until now, I understood rigpa as "insight/vipassana". What do you >think about "rigpa" and Guenther's view? > > I would vote for 'clear awareness', but Guenter tried to imitate Heidegger by making mysterious expressions. The problem is that there may not be a word or precise translation for rigpa, so the only legitimate thing to do is make the best description you can make and then stipulate a word for it. Guenthers strategy of condensing a description into a long wordcombination is perhaps the worst solution. >5. in Guenthers book, and especially in the essay "The Lama ...", I miss >the word "byams-pa" (metta, loving kindness). >The words "light, ecstatic, dynamic, ontic ground" are used very often. >Do you think, this is the view of Guenther or the view of Padmasambhava? > > Heideggers. He made the distinction between ontologic (pertaining to being) and ontic (pertaining to beings). There's npo way you can use one of the pair without having th other in mind. And since I doubt that Guenther understood anyting of Heidegger it's very likely that he would not be able to explain clearly what he meant. >By the way, in the end of "The Lama ..." there are some very unkind and >in my view unknowing words about the american Nyingma Lama Surya Das. > > >Thank you for your patience and feedback, >bernhard > > > > -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sun May 7 10:06:02 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sun May 7 10:06:51 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <445DFD32.1050100@cola.iges.org> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> <445DFD32.1050100@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <3ydq8nEqrhXEFwnB@clara.net> In message <445DFD32.1050100@cola.iges.org>, curt writes >Is "hope and fear chase each other's tails" really an old Buddhist >saying? Maybe one of the old Buddhists on this list can verify that for >us? Attachment and aversion, depicted as the cock and the snake on the wheel of life, chase each others' tales via the tail of the pig of ignorance. But on some depictions, they both come from the mouth of the pig and are thus side by side. -- Metta Mike Austin From jamesward at earthlink.net Sun May 7 10:52:54 2006 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sun May 7 10:53:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Old Tibetan Documents Online Message-ID: Perhaps some of you would be interested to see this site, containing a few Old Tibetan documents in Wylie transcription: http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~hoshi/OTDO_web/index.html James Ward From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 7 13:02:10 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun May 7 13:02:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> Poetic and profound, Joanna. It reminds me of Albert Camus, who considered Sysiphus a wise and happy person, because he had completely given up hope. But Camus distinguished hope with a big H (esp?rance) from practical hope (espoir). The last one is OK, it makes sense to say 'I hope to see you soon' or 'I hope to finish this piece before six o'clock'. But the hope for a heaven with 72 virgins or a promised land has made more vicitims then any natural disaster so far. That's whu I gave up the hope for sukhavati. -- Erik ==================== I began thinking of worst cases: people stuck in prisons-----is hope any consolation there? I guess there is realistic hope and then unrealistic hope. Realistic would include for ex. legal groups dedicated to saving condemned prisoners from execution via DNA research....or pro bono lawyers getting sentences shortened, and such like. This sort of hope made some prisoners learn law while serving sentences. For some like terrorist Moussaoui, he has the rest of his life to pray, in hopes of getting 72 virgins in heaven. He'd hoped to become a martyr with a death sentence, but that hope was erased by a life sentence. There once was a prisoner, a murderer, in the USA famed for becoming a Buddhist, who was said to have achieved big insight after years of meditation practice as is lawyers fought against his death sentence. Anti-death penalty organizations tried to save him, but did not succeed. Perhaps he died with a peaceful mind, only achievable perhaps if one takes up meditation and achieves insight. But some say that condemned prisoners who get religion (other kinds of) also die in peace. The death penalty seems to me to continue the bellicosity and belief in the value of aggression of those who, and the societies that, impose it. But I have "given up hope" that in this country it will be ended. Even working against it seems to get nowhere, much less working for peace. Joanna From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Sun May 7 13:40:27 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun May 7 13:40:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Prof. Guenther: some essays References: <4459C3CF.5070505@arcor.de> <445E19DD.2030303@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <003c01c6720e$18102e20$21339c04@Dan> > >4. a central term in Dzogchen and also in Guenther's book is "rigpa". He > >translates rigpa with: "overconscious ecstatic intensity". > >Well, until now, I understood rigpa as "insight/vipassana". What do you > >think about "rigpa" and Guenther's view? > > > > > I would vote for 'clear awareness', but Guenter tried to imitate > Heidegger by making mysterious expressions. The problem is that there > may not be a word or precise translation for rigpa, so the only > legitimate thing to do is make the best description you can make and > then stipulate a word for it. Guenthers strategy of condensing a > description into a long wordcombination is perhaps the worst solution. Among attested uses of Rig pa to represent/translate Sanskrit terms are: rig pa - sa.mvedana; {MSA}vid; {LCh,MSA,C}vidyaa; sa.mvid; {C}vij~na; {C}viditvaa These are not "mysterious" terms but are various ways of saying "to experience, or know" or as the Tibetan Translation Tool (available online for download from U of Virginia) suggests: (JH-ENG) knower; knowledge; awareness; know; be aware; aware; basic knowledge (JH-OE) {C}lore; existence; science(s); secret lore; magical formula; discern(ing); have understood; convinced; having known/seen/noticed (JH-SE) Syn.: knowledge; cognition (YOGA) vidyA (JV) (pure, sheer, instantaneous, instant) presence, know, knower, knowledge, understand, actually experience, (immediate, pure, intrinsic, aesthetic, value-sustained, pure non-dual) awareness, noetic act, pure sensation, information input, cognition, cognitive (capacity, being), energetic charge, intrinsic perception, science, SA rtogs pa'i rig pa, the flash of knowing that gives awareness its illumining quality, insight, logic, mantra, talent, wit, science, learning, literature, intellectual reasoning, awakened awareness, knowing in-a-flash, state of contemplation, intelligence, true condition of the mind of the individual, conscious mind, to notice, to recognize, to see, discovering, discovers, real knowledge, recognition The problem is that every manner of acquiring knowledge or insight that various Tibetans wanted to legitimize got packed into the usages of this term. Guenther's attempt to pack all that into an overwrought, virtually incomprehensible English phrase doesn't clarify much, does it? Or, maybe unpacking all those compressed indigestibles will lead to another sort of insight. Dan :Lusthaus From curt at cola.iges.org Mon May 8 08:12:12 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon May 8 08:12:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <3ydq8nEqrhXEFwnB@clara.net> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> <445DFD32.1050100@cola.iges.org> <3ydq8nEqrhXEFwnB@clara.net> Message-ID: <445F51BC.4080804@cola.iges.org> Thanks! With that information I was able to do a google search on "snake pig tail wheel of life buddhism" and found lots of information, including this very nice wikipedia article on the wheel of life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_Life. - Curt Mike Austin wrote: > In message <445DFD32.1050100@cola.iges.org>, curt > writes >> Is "hope and fear chase each other's tails" really an old Buddhist >> saying? Maybe one of the old Buddhists on this list can verify that >> for us? > > Attachment and aversion, depicted as the cock and the snake on the > wheel of life, chase each others' tales via the tail of the pig of > ignorance. But on some depictions, they both come from the mouth of > the pig and are thus side by side. > From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon May 8 08:34:42 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon May 8 08:34:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl> <006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: The death penalty seems to me to continue the bellicosity and belief in the value of aggression of those who, and the societies that, impose it. But I have "given up hope" that in this country it will be ended. Even working against it seems to get nowhere, much less working for peace. Joanna for people like us who want deathpenalty to disappear altogether, it doesn't matter much in which country it's still being carried out. But I repete that this is what Camus meant with Sysiphus being a happy and wise person and also what it means in the Bhagavad Giita when K.r.s.n.a advises Arjuna to give up any attachment for the results of action and finally what it means in Buddhism when a bodhisattva will bring an unendless multitude of beings to bodhi and still doesn't have the idea that anyone has been brought to bodhi. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Mon May 8 12:28:48 2006 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Mon May 8 09:17:27 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> <445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> It's SO EASY for us righteous "liberals"--hey, we're "compassionate" "buddhists too--to oppose the death penalty. Whatever happened to the movement for PRISON ABOLITION? Eugene Debs:"While there is a soul in prison, I am not free". He did'nt say "innocent soul" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Hoogcarspel" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope > jkirk schreef: > > The death penalty seems to me to continue the bellicosity and belief in the > value of aggression of those who, and the societies that, impose it. But I > have "given up hope" that in this country it will be ended. Even working > against it seems to get nowhere, much less working for peace. > > > Joanna > > for people like us who want deathpenalty to disappear altogether, it doesn't matter much in which country it's still being carried out. But I repete that this is what Camus meant with Sysiphus being a happy and wise person and also what it means in the Bhagavad Giita when K.r.s.n.a advises Arjuna to give up any attachment for the results of action and finally what it means in Buddhism when a bodhisattva will bring an unendless multitude of beings to bodhi and still doesn't have the idea that anyone has been brought to bodhi. > > > > Erik > > > www.xs4all.nl/~jehms > weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 8 09:19:02 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 8 09:19:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> <445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000701c672b2$bd62ed00$2930cece@charlie> >> jkirk schreef: > > The death penalty seems to me to continue the bellicosity and belief in > the value of aggression of those who, and the societies that, impose it. > But I have "given up hope" that in this country it will be ended. Even > working against it seems to get nowhere, much less working for peace. > > >> Joanna > for people like us who want death penalty to disappear altogether, it > doesn't matter much in which country it's still being carried out. > Erik Well, yes, but I, like many others, also try to commit action on behalf of peace as well as just pushing my stone endlessly up the hill. I can only do it in my country, where there may still be some room for human agency left over. Step by step........"being peace" as Thich Nhat Hanh said. But as at present my neck of the woods (and neighbor rocky mountain states) is threatened by another mushroom cloud, one not offered by bin Laden, but by our own government bent on preparing the way for testing more nuclear bunker-buster bombs. So on June 2 next month they prepare to set off a 700 ton bomb underground in Nevada (south of Idaho where I and thousands of others live), near the old test site, that will indeed set free tons of radioactive dust left behind from their 1940s nuclear bomb testing. People in Idaho who were recipients of radioactive fallout back in the forties have yet to be compensated by the government. Now this. I cannot take any pleasure in the irony that a state like Idaho-- where a large majority of people are against the termination of pregnancies for almost any reason -- are now going to face having their unborn infants and live children (both of whom are more vulnerable to ionizing radiation than adults) subjected to this radioactive dust fallout. Thus, I must try to do more than simply go about my business like Sisyphus. Joanna Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 8 09:36:55 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 8 09:37:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sutta readings, online in English Message-ID: <001901c672b5$3d0c4860$2930cece@charlie> http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/index.html in English They've put quite a lot of them online and I note that many of the readings are from Bhikkhu Bodhi's books, some are from Access to Insight's website. From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon May 8 09:48:18 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon May 8 09:48:27 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> <445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <445F6842.8090100@xs4all.nl> Gad Horowitz schreef: >It's SO EASY for us righteous "liberals"--hey, we're "compassionate" >"buddhists too--to oppose the death penalty. Whatever happened to the >movement for PRISON ABOLITION? Eugene Debs:"While there is a soul in >prison, I am not free". He did'nt say "innocent soul" > > > I'm not against deathpenalty because of me, but because it's just wrong and it brings more sorrow then it is supposed to prevent or alleviate. Moreover I think the thought of revenge is too easy and also that a society shouldn't just get rid of it's mistakes, but try to make them right and learn from them. I don't think we should reinvent the kastesystem and consider some people to be born as criminals, nor ignore the influence of society with the excuse of a cheap and easy voluntarism. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 8 10:06:31 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 8 10:06:30 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie><445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <001101c672b9$5f2e3da0$2930cece@charlie> Good question. What's the answer in your view? Joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gad Horowitz" > It's SO EASY for us righteous "liberals"--hey, we're "compassionate" > "buddhists too--to oppose the death penalty. Whatever happened to the > movement for PRISON ABOLITION? Eugene Debs:"While there is a soul in > prison, I am not free". He did'nt say "innocent soul" From myquagga at yahoo.com Mon May 8 10:15:24 2006 From: myquagga at yahoo.com (Michael Wright) Date: Mon May 8 11:50:23 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] chenrezi In-Reply-To: <200605081606.k48G6oFA024187@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20060508161524.69533.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone on this list have a good English translation of the tantra for Chenrezi (Avalokitesvara)? I've sat in on a Tibetan chant, but would like to know more about what's being said. Thanks. Michael Wright __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From srhodes at boulder.net Mon May 8 11:52:32 2006 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Mon May 8 11:53:03 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] chenrezi In-Reply-To: <20060508161524.69533.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060508161524.69533.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <445F8560.9000406@boulder.net> What do you mean by *the* tantra? There is an English-language Chenrezig sadhana included in the recently published Cultivating a Compassionate Heart by Thubten Chodron (from Snow Lion Publications). Steve Michael Wright wrote: >Does anyone on this list have a good English >translation of the tantra for >Chenrezi (Avalokitesvara)? I've sat in on a Tibetan >chant, but would like to know more about what's being >said. > >Thanks. > >Michael Wright > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From curt at cola.iges.org Mon May 8 12:18:39 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon May 8 12:18:59 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie> <445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <445F8B7F.4010206@cola.iges.org> Debs was a revolutionary socialist - he viewed capitalism as inherently unjust - and, as a system, totally incapable of dispensing justice. For Debs the police, the courts and the prison system were just instruments of capitalism - and so every prisoner was a victim of injustice. The solution, in Debs view, was the overthrow of capitalism and its replacement by socialism. That is not an immediately practical answer to the very real problem of the incredible rate of incarceration in the United States (higher than anything Stalin or Mao ever achieved) - but the more one is familiar with the realities of the U.S. prison system, the more revolutionary one is likely to become in one's outlook. Between now and the revolution there's work to be done - if for no other reason than simple humanitarianism and compassion for the over 2 million people in prison in the US. Getting as many of them out of prison as quickly as possible is probably one good goal. One way to achieve that would be sweeping reform of drug laws - specifically laws that put people in prison for non-violent drug-related charges. An excellent source of information on the "war on drugs" and its relationship to prison issues and "law and order" issues in general is Michael Parenti's "Lockdown America". Parenti makes a good case that if we just returned to drug policies and laws that were championed by Richard Nixon (!), there would be a vast decrease in the prison population (basically treating drug addiction as a public health problem rather than as a political bludgeon for Republicans to swing at Democrats). - Curt P.S. Debs was also an anarchist - or at least there is anecdotal evidence for that. Supposedly he once met Emma Goldman and after they had talked for a while Goldman exclaimed, "Why, Mr. Debs, you're an Anarchist!". To which Debs replied, "that's Comrade Debs." Gad Horowitz wrote: > It's SO EASY for us righteous "liberals"--hey, we're "compassionate" > "buddhists too--to oppose the death penalty. Whatever happened to the > movement for PRISON ABOLITION? Eugene Debs:"While there is a soul in > prison, I am not free". He did'nt say "innocent soul" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erik Hoogcarspel" > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope > > > >> jkirk schreef: >> >> The death penalty seems to me to continue the bellicosity and belief in >> > the > >> value of aggression of those who, and the societies that, impose it. But I >> have "given up hope" that in this country it will be ended. Even working >> against it seems to get nowhere, much less working for peace. >> >> >> Joanna >> >> for people like us who want deathpenalty to disappear altogether, it >> > doesn't matter much in which country it's still being carried out. But I > repete that this is what Camus meant with Sysiphus being a happy and wise > person and also what it means in the Bhagavad Giita when K.r.s.n.a advises > Arjuna to give up any attachment for the results of action and finally what > it means in Buddhism when a bodhisattva will bring an unendless multitude of > beings to bodhi and still doesn't have the idea that anyone has been brought > to bodhi. > >> Erik >> >> >> www.xs4all.nl/~jehms >> weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From mike at lamrim.org.uk Mon May 8 12:24:01 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Mon May 8 12:24:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] chenrezi In-Reply-To: <20060508161524.69533.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200605081606.k48G6oFA024187@ns1.swcp.com> <20060508161524.69533.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In message <20060508161524.69533.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com>, Michael Wright writes >Does anyone on this list have a good English >translation of the tantra for >Chenrezi (Avalokitesvara)? You could try www.lamrim.org.uk\download.htm. -- Metta Mike Austin From gbungo at earthlink.net Mon May 8 15:17:29 2006 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Mon May 8 15:17:34 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope Message-ID: <26096887.1147123049705.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Curt, wrote: (snip) > That is not an immediately practical answer to >the very real problem of the incredible rate of incarceration in the >United States (higher than anything Stalin or Mao ever achieved) - but >the more one is familiar with the realities of the U.S. prison system, >the more revolutionary one is likely to become in one's outlook. (snip) Do you have evidence to back up your statement about Stalin and Mao? Even if it is true, I suspect it would be due to the very high mortality rate in the Stalinist and Maoist prisons. The high population of China would also be a factor. Why imprison people when they can be put to work against their will on a collective farm? By the way, I'm not defending the U.S. prison system. The mandatory sentences for some offenses are outrageous. There are many people in prison who should be in medical treatment programs. Sincerely, Greg Bungo From curt at cola.iges.org Mon May 8 15:59:10 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon May 8 15:59:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <26096887.1147123049705.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26096887.1147123049705.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <445FBF2E.2000307@cola.iges.org> Here's a very nice 2005 world map with a country by country color code for incarceration rates (based on data from the International Center for Prison Studies, Kings College, London): http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/dp/maps-incarceration.html Here's a link to a study of international incarcerations rates, by the "U.S. Justice Fund": http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/articles_publications/publications/intl_incarceration_20030620 Here's a link to a 2003 Christian Science Monitor article on incarceration rates: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html Here's a website on the "Real Price of Prison" hosted by Mother Jones Magazine: http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/index.html The fact that anyone would feel the need to defend the US prison system against comparisons to the regimes of Mao or Stalin basically makes the point all by itself. In terms of being a police state, the U.S. is definitely playing in the major leagues - and we are in the top of our division. If we were to lose the world series (to Stalin or Mao - who only play in the "fantasy" league now, anyway) I don't see that it matters all that much! - Curt Gregory Bungo wrote: > Hi Curt, > > wrote: > (snip) > >> That is not an immediately practical answer to >> the very real problem of the incredible rate of incarceration in the >> United States (higher than anything Stalin or Mao ever achieved) - but >> the more one is familiar with the realities of the U.S. prison system, >> the more revolutionary one is likely to become in one's outlook. >> > (snip) > > Do you have evidence to back up your statement about Stalin > and Mao? Even if it is true, I suspect it would be due to the very > high mortality rate in the Stalinist and Maoist prisons. The high > population of China would also be a factor. Why imprison people > when they can be put to work against their will on a collective farm? > > By the way, I'm not defending the U.S. prison system. The > mandatory sentences for some offenses are outrageous. There > are many people in prison who should be in medical treatment > programs. > > Sincerely, > > Greg Bungo > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From gbungo at earthlink.net Mon May 8 18:00:28 2006 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Mon May 8 18:03:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <445FBF2E.2000307@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: Hi Curt, Did you even bother to read my full message? I wasn't defending the U.S. prison system. In fact I criticized it. I could not find anything about Soviet or Maoist prisons in the references that you supplied. I may have missed it, but I have a feeling you exaggerated, and you don't want to say so. The inability to admit a mistake is a sign of attachment to self. Perhaps I have misunderstood.... I will acknowledge my mistake if you do provide evidence for your assertion about Stalinist or Maoist prisons. I will also be grateful for the education. Sincerely, Greg Bungo curt wrote on 5/8/06 4:59 PM: > Here's a very nice 2005 world map with a country by country color code > for incarceration rates (based on data from the International Center for > Prison Studies, Kings College, London): > http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/dp/maps-incarceration.html > > Here's a link to a study of international incarcerations rates, by the > "U.S. Justice Fund": > http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/articles_publications/publications/in > tl_incarceration_20030620 > > Here's a link to a 2003 Christian Science Monitor article on > incarceration rates: > http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html > > Here's a website on the "Real Price of Prison" hosted by Mother Jones > Magazine: > http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/index.html > > The fact that anyone would feel the need to defend the US prison system > against comparisons to the regimes of Mao or Stalin basically makes the > point all by itself. In terms of being a police state, the U.S. is > definitely playing in the major leagues - and we are in the top of our > division. If we were to lose the world series (to Stalin or Mao - who > only play in the "fantasy" league now, anyway) I don't see that it > matters all that much! > > - Curt > > Gregory Bungo wrote: >> Hi Curt, >> >> wrote: >> (snip) >> >>> That is not an immediately practical answer to >>> the very real problem of the incredible rate of incarceration in the >>> United States (higher than anything Stalin or Mao ever achieved) - but >>> the more one is familiar with the realities of the U.S. prison system, >>> the more revolutionary one is likely to become in one's outlook. >>> >> (snip) >> >> Do you have evidence to back up your statement about Stalin >> and Mao? Even if it is true, I suspect it would be due to the very >> high mortality rate in the Stalinist and Maoist prisons. The high >> population of China would also be a factor. Why imprison people >> when they can be put to work against their will on a collective farm? >> >> By the way, I'm not defending the U.S. prison system. The >> mandatory sentences for some offenses are outrageous. There >> are many people in prison who should be in medical treatment >> programs. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Greg Bungo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Mon May 8 23:01:15 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon May 8 23:01:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie><445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl> <001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <009c01c67325$9a5bf5e0$5d339c04@Dan> > It's SO EASY for us righteous "liberals"--hey, we're "compassionate" > "buddhists too--to oppose the death penalty. Whatever happened to the > movement for PRISON ABOLITION? Eugene Debs:"While there is a soul in > prison, I am not free". He did'nt say "innocent soul" Richard Pryor, after giving a performance in a prison and meeting the prisoners, said in one of his subsequent routines: "There are lots of crazy motherf***ers in there! (long pause; frightened look on his face) Thank God there are prisons!" Dan Lusthaus From curt at cola.iges.org Tue May 9 08:24:36 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue May 9 08:24:46 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4460A624.5080408@cola.iges.org> I did read your message, Gregory. In it you asked whether or not I could substantiate my claim that the current rate of incarceration in the U.S. is higher than whatever it was under Mao or Stalin. I have read that this is so, and when you challenged me to back it up I first wanted to make sure not to stray too far from what I considered the main point to be: the outrageousness of having over 2,000,000 people in prison in the U.S. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that the USSR under Stalin and the PRC under Mao did, in fact, have higher rates of per capita incarceration that the U.S. does now (and/or that they had a higher absolute number of people incarcerated). If we allow that then what is the result? Only that those countries have decreased their rates of incarceration since then, and meanwhile the United States greatly increased ours - succeeding in capturing "first place" in the International Incarceration Rate Competition - although perhaps not yet breaking the historical record (but give us time). The question "does the United States have a lower incarceration rate than the Stalinist or Maoist police states" is like the old "when did you stop beating your wife?" To protest that one stopped beating one's wife quite some time ago is not much of a comeback. - Curt Gregory Bungo wrote: > Hi Curt, > > Did you even bother to read my full message? I wasn't defending > the U.S. prison system. In fact I criticized it. > > I could not find anything about Soviet or Maoist prisons in the > references that you supplied. I may have missed it, but I have a > feeling you exaggerated, and you don't want to say so. The inability > to admit a mistake is a sign of attachment to self. Perhaps I > have misunderstood.... > > I will acknowledge my mistake if you do provide evidence for your > assertion about Stalinist or Maoist prisons. I will also be > grateful for the education. > > Sincerely, > > Greg Bungo > > curt wrote on 5/8/06 4:59 PM: > > >> Here's a very nice 2005 world map with a country by country color code >> for incarceration rates (based on data from the International Center for >> Prison Studies, Kings College, London): >> http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/dp/maps-incarceration.html >> >> Here's a link to a study of international incarcerations rates, by the >> "U.S. Justice Fund": >> http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/articles_publications/publications/in >> tl_incarceration_20030620 >> >> Here's a link to a 2003 Christian Science Monitor article on >> incarceration rates: >> http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html >> >> Here's a website on the "Real Price of Prison" hosted by Mother Jones >> Magazine: >> http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/index.html >> >> The fact that anyone would feel the need to defend the US prison system >> against comparisons to the regimes of Mao or Stalin basically makes the >> point all by itself. In terms of being a police state, the U.S. is >> definitely playing in the major leagues - and we are in the top of our >> division. If we were to lose the world series (to Stalin or Mao - who >> only play in the "fantasy" league now, anyway) I don't see that it >> matters all that much! >> >> - Curt >> >> Gregory Bungo wrote: >> >>> Hi Curt, >>> >>> wrote: >>> (snip) >>> >>> >>>> That is not an immediately practical answer to >>>> the very real problem of the incredible rate of incarceration in the >>>> United States (higher than anything Stalin or Mao ever achieved) - but >>>> the more one is familiar with the realities of the U.S. prison system, >>>> the more revolutionary one is likely to become in one's outlook. >>>> >>>> >>> (snip) >>> >>> Do you have evidence to back up your statement about Stalin >>> and Mao? Even if it is true, I suspect it would be due to the very >>> high mortality rate in the Stalinist and Maoist prisons. The high >>> population of China would also be a factor. Why imprison people >>> when they can be put to work against their will on a collective farm? >>> >>> By the way, I'm not defending the U.S. prison system. The >>> mandatory sentences for some offenses are outrageous. There >>> are many people in prison who should be in medical treatment >>> programs. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Greg Bungo >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From jmp at peavler.org Mon May 8 21:00:26 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue May 9 09:31:38 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13FD5713-EB63-4556-AF42-BF1DEF6BAA80@peavler.org> On May 8, 2006, at 6:00 PM, Gregory Bungo wrote: > Hi Curt, In the interests of peace and equanimity on Buddha-l, and since the issue at this point is not about matters of central interest to the proclaimed subject realm of Buddha-l, I encourage the combatants to go to their neutral corners and take the remainder of this particular debate offline (i.e., between themselves). This is just my personal point of view, that I have no wish to impose upon anyone who is actually interested in the outcome. Jim Peavler "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 9 11:00:21 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 9 11:00:19 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: Buddhist social deconstruction Message-ID: <004a01c6738a$0f4837b0$2930cece@charlie> Since we've got onto the topic of prisons, war etc, I thought members might like to read this old message from the list. I wish Ross would post again, over two years since he wrote this. Joanna ============================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Barlow" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Buddhist social deconstruction > Richard asked: or less on target?> > > The word "political" is indeed a dirty word to many Americans these > days. To many, it represents a lust for Power over others. Police > power. The power of the god-awful goose-stepping State. And the > politician is the ultimate lecher after this power, the whore who > sells his wares to anyone who pays with a vote. His wares are > plundered from the people via "laws," regulations and taxes. The > symbol of politics is a prison cell. > > "Political" also means "dogmatic" more and more as American political > cultures grow so far apart that they can no longer converse with one > another. The only thing they have in common is their desire to use > the tool of politics to go after whoever they define as heretics. > Ideologies ? religious and secular ? have their creeds memorized and > their political action-plans in place, ready to bring the hammer of > the State down on their enemies. > > Perhaps a better term for a Buddhist oriented concept of human > interaction would be "social" or "cooperative." Social motivation is > voluntary, from the heart, and non-coercive. While political power > tends to corrupt, social power encourages virtue. Political power > calls on the cops to draw their guns, while social power calls on > individuals and organizations to draw on their compassion and > understanding. The symbols of social interaction are metta, mudita, > genuine dialogue, and a willingly helping hand. > > Users of the political way whore after public opinion for their > justification to enlarge the American Empire, invading at will > everywhere at anytime to force their way on others. This appeals to > the bully-boy redneck who, in his youth, loved to beat people up and > who now has government agents who will beat the hell out of those > foreigner-heathens in his name. > > The political whores legislate majority religious/ethical norms for > the majority against the minorities in the name of "community > standards," "the American Way," "tradition," Christianity, etc. They > force their ways on all. It is naked compulsion, pure and simple. > Their weapon is politics. Even Buddhists could use political power to > coerce advantages over others. > > The political whores coerce huge shares of citizens' earnings to pay > for their wars, for their "public-spirited" schemes of bringing a > share of the loot back to their constituents in exchange for votes, > and for their payoffs to all politically-connected thieves (both > well-heeled and professionally shabby). It is theft, graft, plunder, > and might-makes-right pillage. It depends upon violence and force to > get its way. Halliburton has its whores in Washington (highly placed, > I am told). > > Where has compassion gone these days? Where is the idea of letting > people be in peace? Where has tolerance gone? Has America ever had > these ideas? Can they be re-gained/ re-taught? > > I have lived in America for 53 years. But now, more than ever > before, I feel like dropping out, because the American game has more > than ever become Politics ? i.e., using legislation to plunder, > coerce, bully, and kill. I will never vote in another election for > any of these sleazy whores again. > > Politics be damned. It is time to renounce such ancient > warfare-bound thinking and to shift to a more civilized social and > voluntary outlook. It is time to look away from power-mad rat-holes > like Washington, Ottawa, Rangoon or Beijing and to look to our > neighbors and ask them "How are you doing these days? How can I help > you?" > > The Ring of Power cannot be wielded without corrupting the wearer. > > Politics, War, Coercion and Plunder have been standard human games > for all time. Why did the Buddha decide not to pursue these courses > of action? Did he see a better way? > > -Ross Barlow. > an anarchist in the American revolutionary tradition. > Don't Tread On Me. > > From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Tue May 9 14:07:52 2006 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Tue May 9 14:08:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist social deconstruction References: <200605091800.k49I0LTV014610@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: I was reading in a San Marino restaurant the other day when someone running for office (Congress?) and someone else (a fundraiser, quasi-lobbyist?) were having a "meeting." The fundraiser fellow said, in an opening statement, something about how he used to always want to get work specifically in proportion to his donations and fundraising efforts, but that never happened, so he now knows that one does such things to serve the community. Being a nosy fellow, I listened and listened and listened. I wanted to know if they were Democrats or Republicans. This never came up, not once. They only discussed money, networks, "the Construction Community," the propriety of donation requests, and things like that. There was one tiny hint that the candidate was a Democrat--he met J-lo at a fund-raiser. I'm assuming that the entertainer signifies some miniscule degree of Leftness, but I don't know. Maybe W. charmed her by speaking in Spanish. Okay...how can I tether this complaint to Buddhism. No-self! Democrats, Republicans...they have no self-existant permanent identity! Their selves are determined by the grasping they have not yet overcome. Michael Moore and I are "not two" (today), "JWB" / the Huntington Library >Since we've got onto the topic of prisons, war etc, I thought members might >like to read this old message from the list. I wish Ross would post again, >over two years since he wrote this. >Joanna From mike at lamrim.org.uk Tue May 9 14:46:32 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Tue May 9 14:47:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <13FD5713-EB63-4556-AF42-BF1DEF6BAA80@peavler.org> References: <13FD5713-EB63-4556-AF42-BF1DEF6BAA80@peavler.org> Message-ID: In message <13FD5713-EB63-4556-AF42-BF1DEF6BAA80@peavler.org>, Jim Peavler writes > >This is just my personal point of view, that I have no wish to impose >upon anyone who is actually interested in the outcome. > This not just your point of view Jim. I share it. -- Metta Mike Austin From curt at cola.iges.org Tue May 9 15:11:30 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue May 9 15:11:45 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <13FD5713-EB63-4556-AF42-BF1DEF6BAA80@peavler.org> References: <13FD5713-EB63-4556-AF42-BF1DEF6BAA80@peavler.org> Message-ID: <44610582.8080101@cola.iges.org> By Buddha-l standards it wasn't very "combative". But then again that's kind of like saying "well, compared to Mao we've got a pretty good human right record"! - Curt Jim Peavler wrote: > > On May 8, 2006, at 6:00 PM, Gregory Bungo wrote: > >> Hi Curt, > > In the interests of peace and equanimity on Buddha-l, and since the > issue at this point is not about matters of central interest to the > proclaimed subject realm of Buddha-l, I encourage the combatants to go > to their neutral corners and take the remainder of this particular > debate offline (i.e., between themselves). > > This is just my personal point of view, that I have no wish to impose > upon anyone who is actually interested in the outcome. > > > Jim Peavler > > "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little > temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." > > -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania > Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From bsimon at toad.net Tue May 9 17:20:21 2006 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Tue May 9 17:20:29 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction Message-ID: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> Since we're on the subject of prison, I recall that Nagarjuna had something to say about the subject in his Letter to a Friend. I find this text valuable because it's one of the few that I know of that speak about the political and social implications of Buddhism. Perhaps some of the list members know of some other texts. http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dsantina/friend.htm Nagarjuna does not neglect even the case of offenders against the law, common criminals. Even those who deserve punishment because of their ill deeds should be treated with compassion. Compassion should in fact be generated even towards those who have committed awful crimes. Murderers in particular should be objects of compassion for those who are of a virtuous nature. Nagarjuna went so far as to concern himself with the treatment of prisoners. He recommends that the weaker prisoners be freed after a single day or at the most five days of imprisonment. Indeed, one should never think of imprisoning anyone for life]. In fact, the simple thought of imprisoning someone for life is a cause of breaking the Buddhist layman's Commitment to protect life. Conditions in the prisons too do not escape Nagarjuna's attention. He says that as long as prisoners are not freed, they should be made comfortable. They should be provided with barbers, baths, food, drink and medicine. Finally, Nagarjuna expresses a concept that only dawned upon western social philosophers at the time of the eighteenth century so called "enlightenment" in Europe. That is, wrong doers should be punished with the sole wish to reform them, not with the wish to exact revenge or retribution. Like sons who have gone astray, prisoners should be punished in such a way as to make them once again worthy members of society. ---- Bernie Simon / Jinpa Zangpo From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 9 18:11:09 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 9 18:11:06 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist social deconstruction References: <200605091800.k49I0LTV014610@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <002801c673c6$3dc38360$2930cece@charlie> ...Okay...how can I tether this complaint to Buddhism. No-self! Democrats, Republicans...they have no self-existant permanent identity! Their selves are determined by the grasping they have not yet overcome. Michael Moore and I are "not two" (today), "JWB" / the Huntington Library ---------------- In fact, it seems that ust about the entire society is like this. Joanna From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 9 19:19:24 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue May 9 19:18:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> Message-ID: <004601c673cf$d913dd20$0a644e51@zen> Bernie Simon wrote: > Like sons who have gone astray, prisoners should be punished > in such a way as to make them once again worthy members of society. Though the actuality increasingly deviates from the ideal, it is being a prisoner, that is, merely the fact of being deprived of one's liberty, which is the punishment under British and most European penal codes. Prisoners should not be additionally punished -- well, that's the ideal anyway. I noticed a lot on people on TV in the US congratulating themselves how humane their society is because Moussaoui was sentenced to life imprisonment, but I wonder if the inhumane conditions of his incarceration are widely known ? Some would say that it would be more merciful to execute the man instead. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From curt at cola.iges.org Tue May 9 21:17:36 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue May 9 21:17:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction In-Reply-To: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> Message-ID: <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org> There is some good stuff in Asoka's Rock Edicts concerning prisoners as well as other social and political matters. In Major Edict #5 Asoka praises the "officers of the Dhamma" for their work on behalf of prisoners - gaining the release of prisoners who have children or are aged, and looking after prisoners who are well behaved (see http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/asoka1.html). There is also mention of treating slaves and servants well, and (in the 12th Rock Edict) a fairly strong statement on Religious tolerance. - Curt Bernie Simon wrote: > Since we're on the subject of prison, I recall that Nagarjuna had > something to say about the subject in his Letter to a Friend. I find > this text valuable because it's one of the few that I know of that > speak about the political and social implications of Buddhism. Perhaps > some of the list members know of some other texts. > > http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dsantina/friend.htm > > Nagarjuna does not neglect even the case of offenders against the law, > common criminals. Even those who deserve punishment because of their > ill deeds should be treated with compassion. Compassion should in > fact be generated even towards those who have committed awful crimes. > Murderers in particular should be objects of compassion for those who > are of a virtuous nature. > > Nagarjuna went so far as to concern himself with the treatment of > prisoners. He recommends that the weaker prisoners be freed after a > single day or at the most five days of imprisonment. Indeed, one > should never think of imprisoning anyone for life]. In fact, the > simple thought of imprisoning someone for life is a cause of breaking > the Buddhist layman's Commitment to protect life. > > Conditions in the prisons too do not escape Nagarjuna's attention. He > says that as long as prisoners are not freed, they should be made > comfortable. They should be provided with barbers, baths, food, drink > and medicine. Finally, Nagarjuna expresses a concept that only dawned > upon western social philosophers at the time of the eighteenth century > so called "enlightenment" in Europe. That is, wrong doers should be > punished with the sole wish to reform them, not with the wish to exact > revenge or retribution. Like sons who have gone astray, prisoners > should be punished in such a way as to make them once again worthy > members of society. > > ---- > Bernie Simon / Jinpa Zangpo > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 9 21:25:11 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 9 21:25:07 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI--Buddhism-The eBook Message-ID: <00c101c673e1$59212ca0$2930cece@charlie> http://www.jbeonlinebooks.org/buddhism.html Buddhism-The eBook Second Edition The First Comprehensive E-Text Introduction By Charles Prebish and Damien Keown I got the first ed., haven't seen this second ed, which is accompanied by a lot more online backup resources than the first one was (see the website), Joanna Kirkpatrick From c_castell at yahoo.com Wed May 10 00:01:36 2006 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina Castell-du Payrat) Date: Wed May 10 00:01:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Where is Richard-Hayes-Coyote? In-Reply-To: <00c101c673e1$59212ca0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <20060510060136.87338.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Running after a roadrunner in new mexico? I would like to hear from you Coyote. Cheers, Catalina Catalina Castell - du Payrat c_castell@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060509/56584722/attachment.html From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Wed May 10 05:10:54 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed May 10 05:11:41 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> Curt wrote: > In Major Edict #5 Asoka > praises the "officers of the Dhamma" for their work on behalf of > prisoners - gaining the release of prisoners who have children or are > aged, and looking after prisoners who are well behaved (see > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/asoka1.html). One has to know something about the customs of the times to recognize that this is a very measured, and indeed restrictive stipulation. It was common in China as well as India to offer major amnesties on regular occasions -- annually or on certain years (e.g., every seventh year), or to coordinate with certain festivals or astrological/astronomical events, etc. In Pillar Edict 5 (which can be found on the same site), it says: "In the period [from my consecration] to [the anniversary on which] I had been consecrated twenty-six years, twenty-five releases of prisoners have been made." So it was an annual event, on the anniversary of his "consecration" (= coronation), an act of mercy believed to help insure continued rule (it had cosmological as well as political dimensions). What "Major Edict #5" shows is that these annual gestures of amnesty where not universal (he didn't empty the prisons), but selective -- the old and infirm (who were now physically harmless) and well-behaved breadwinners whose families needed them for survival (there was no welfare system to pick up the slack). In short, these were selective releases (some rulers did virtually empty their prisons on certain pressing occasions). The idea that prisons are unnecessary is naive, and dangerous. The idea that inflicting dangerous predators on a defenseless populace is an act of compassion is perverse. The idea that a kiss on the cheek and a mantra will extirpate dangerous criminal tendencies from all criminals is, itself, criminal. If you've never had a conversation with someone that you quickly realize is willing and able to kill you right there on the spot should the merest shift in wind or mood strike him, a realization that makes you tremble to your depths, then you are not in a position to fully appreciate what is at stake. The necessity of prisons is not to be conflated with: 1. issues of false imprisonment, 2. substandard prison conditions, 3. overly harsh sentencing (or the obverse) 4. police brutality and corruption and the plethora of other issues that clear thinking people would wish to curtail and reform. It is about those people who have done horrible, unimaginable things, and will do them again, next time perhaps to someone you know. When I was in Britain about a year and half ago, the big news was some fellow who had massacred his wife and family and, once he had served his ten years (!) had been released, marrying some woman who had become interested in him while he was in prison. It was current news because he had just massacred wife #2, apparently in a brutal fashion similar to what he had done to his previous, deceased wife. While the talking heads on tv were defending the idea that the release after the ten year sentence was justified (for similar reason to the ones floated on this list), the second wife's surviving brother was hardly in agreement. My compassion melds with his outrage. I wasn't in Britain long enough to learn the final disposition of the new crime. (incidentally, this coincided with the slaughter of the children in the Chechnyan school -- which the British journalists were too PC to label an act of "terrorism," a terminological hesitance that a panel reviewing the BBC's practices has recently highlighted for criticism http://www.bbcgovernors.co.uk/docs/reviews/panel_report_final.pdf ). A squeamish incapacity to deal with violent people, masked by the reassurance that this incapacity was a sign of high moral sensibilities. Interesting, but dangerous. Dan Lusthaus From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 10 07:50:27 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed May 10 07:50:27 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction In-Reply-To: <003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org> <003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <4461EFA3.3040207@xs4all.nl> Dan Lusthaus schreef: > >If you've never had a conversation with someone that you quickly realize is >willing and able to kill you right there on the spot should the merest shift >in wind or mood strike him, a realization that makes you tremble to your >depths, then you are not in a position to fully appreciate what is at stake. > >The necessity of prisons is not to be conflated with: >1. issues of false imprisonment, >2. substandard prison conditions, >3. overly harsh sentencing (or the obverse) >4. police brutality and corruption >and the plethora of other issues that clear thinking people would wish to >curtail and reform. > >It is about those people who have done horrible, unimaginable things, and >will do them again, next time perhaps to someone you know. > > > I don't think one example proves a lot and I hate conversasiotns where only examples and counter examples are exchanged. An important question one has to answere is: what's the objective of punishment?Is it: * revenge * honouring the public feeling of justice, or * prevention? The Old Testament prescribes revenge, most judges nowadays appeal to a feeling of justice expressed in the law and jurisprudence. Liberals may want the last option, me too. This is a tough one because it's not easy to find out how you can make people not to commit crimes again. One thing is certain however: the prison today is a crime university. (Read Michel Foucalt's 'Discipline and punishment'). Most inmates are prone to go back where to came from, even better prepared. Making them more uncomfortable has never helped. The sharia even doesn't help to lower the crime rate. It seems that prisons need to be more like social schools or places of education. Not because we want to be nice to criminals, but because we want to punish the crime and not the criminal. If I'm not mistaken I smell a bit of old fashioned anattaa here! Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jkirk at spro.net Wed May 10 08:16:22 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed May 10 08:17:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net><44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org> <003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <008701c6743c$514dc9b0$2930cece@charlie> Dan makes some persuasive points. I see the issue of prison also in the light of repeat child rapers and molesters, pedophiles in a word. Compassion for such as they IMHO is prison for life, so that they have no chance to incur further bad consequences to their moral life, nor opportunities to injure others, by repeating. Where I live there are men who continue to try to lure or snatch kids walking home from school into their trucks or cars. These people when caught should be taken off the roads and off the map. It's well known that such people cannot be "cured." It's been tried by various means and it fails. Joanna =================================================== > Curt wrote: > >> In Major Edict #5 Asoka >> praises the "officers of the Dhamma" for their work on behalf of >> prisoners - gaining the release of prisoners who have children or are >> aged, and looking after prisoners who are well behaved (see >> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/asoka1.html). > > One has to know something about the customs of the times to recognize that > this is a very measured, and indeed restrictive stipulation. It was common > in China as well as India to offer major amnesties on regular occasions -- > annually or on certain years (e.g., every seventh year), or to coordinate > with certain festivals or astrological/astronomical events, etc. In Pillar > Edict 5 (which can be found on the same site), it says: > > "In the period [from my consecration] to [the anniversary on which] I had > been consecrated twenty-six years, twenty-five releases of prisoners have > been made." > > So it was an annual event, on the anniversary of his "consecration" (= > coronation), an act of mercy believed to help insure continued rule (it > had > cosmological as well as political dimensions). What "Major Edict #5" shows > is that these annual gestures of amnesty where not universal (he didn't > empty the prisons), but selective -- the old and infirm (who were now > physically harmless) and well-behaved breadwinners whose families needed > them for survival (there was no welfare system to pick up the slack). In > short, these were selective releases (some rulers did virtually empty > their > prisons on certain pressing occasions). > > The idea that prisons are unnecessary is naive, and dangerous. The idea > that > inflicting dangerous predators on a defenseless populace is an act of > compassion is perverse. The idea that a kiss on the cheek and a mantra > will > extirpate dangerous criminal tendencies from all criminals is, itself, > criminal. > > If you've never had a conversation with someone that you quickly realize > is > willing and able to kill you right there on the spot should the merest > shift > in wind or mood strike him, a realization that makes you tremble to your > depths, then you are not in a position to fully appreciate what is at > stake. > > The necessity of prisons is not to be conflated with: > 1. issues of false imprisonment, > 2. substandard prison conditions, > 3. overly harsh sentencing (or the obverse) > 4. police brutality and corruption > and the plethora of other issues that clear thinking people would wish to > curtail and reform. > > It is about those people who have done horrible, unimaginable things, and > will do them again, next time perhaps to someone you know. > > When I was in Britain about a year and half ago, the big news was some > fellow who had massacred his wife and family and, once he had served his > ten > years (!) had been released, marrying some woman who had become interested > in him while he was in prison. It was current news because he had just > massacred wife #2, apparently in a brutal fashion similar to what he had > done to his previous, deceased wife. While the talking heads on tv were > defending the idea that the release after the ten year sentence was > justified (for similar reason to the ones floated on this list), the > second > wife's surviving brother was hardly in agreement. My compassion melds with > his outrage. I wasn't in Britain long enough to learn the final > disposition > of the new crime. (incidentally, this coincided with the slaughter of the > children in the Chechnyan school -- which the British journalists were too > PC to label an act of "terrorism," a terminological hesitance that a panel > reviewing the BBC's practices has recently highlighted for criticism > http://www.bbcgovernors.co.uk/docs/reviews/panel_report_final.pdf ). A > squeamish incapacity to deal with violent people, masked by the > reassurance > that this incapacity was a sign of high moral sensibilities. Interesting, > but dangerous. > > Dan Lusthaus > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 5/5/2006 > > From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Wed May 10 08:36:14 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed May 10 08:36:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org><003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> <4461EFA3.3040207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <005101c6743f$1b3975b0$f7339c04@Dan> Erik wrote: > I don't think one example proves a lot and I hate conversasiotns where only examples and counter examples are exchanged. An important question one has to answere is: what's the objective of punishment?Is it: Of course not. Why should reality or anything empirical intrude on one's fantasies? > * revenge > * honouring the public feeling of justice, or > * prevention? If you go back and reread what I wrote, the answer is that some people are too dangerous to be allowed to prey on others. "Revenge" is merely a label one gives to someone else's sense of justice when one doesn't approve or agree. To deny a society the right to establish justice would be perverse and injust. > The Old Testament prescribes revenge, Actually, that is the Christian myth (= deliberate misreading) of the Hebrew scriptures. It's a devious and yet transparent way for Christians to disown two incredibly brutal millennia while reassuring themselves that they are morally superior to their victims and each other. Which is why the Rabbinic tradition outlawed capital punishment -- based on its reading of the scriptures -- two thousand years ago (they set the bar so high, that in practical terms, virtually no human situation would fulfill the requirements). Rabbinic ethics center on balancing chesed (loving-kindness, mercy) with din (stern justice), the former considered the higher value; either extreme, when untempered by the other, leads to bad consequences. Middle Way. >most judges nowadays appeal to a > feeling of justice expressed in the law and jurisprudence. Judges, if they are doing their job, implement the law (which is usually written by others). If they don't, they are not judges but vigilantes. >One > thing is certain however: the prison today is a crime university. (Read > Michel Foucalt's 'Discipline and punishment'). Most inmates are prone to > go back where to came from, even better prepared. That generalism doesn't even rise to the status of an example or counterexample. There are lots of problems with Foucault's version of institutional history (driven, as it is, by an agenda grounded in a deep nostalgia for the lost wholeness of the Church). In the American judicial system, the stress and resources were devoted to rehabilitation over "punishment" for several decades (1950s-70s), but the results were unsatisfactory and depressing. Recidivism didn't decline, actual rehabilitation was a rare event, and the crime rate soared. While some argued that more effective rehabilitative methods should be sought, others (who have dominated policy since) rejected that argument and insisted that prisons shouldn't "coddle" criminals. Whatever one thinks of the heartlessness of that theory, crime rates have dropped. Whether Europe has been following a similar or different trajectory, I don't know. Some people really are icchantikas. Dan Lusthaus From curt at cola.iges.org Wed May 10 08:57:22 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed May 10 08:58:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction In-Reply-To: <003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org> <003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <4461FF52.10406@cola.iges.org> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > The idea that > inflicting dangerous predators on a defenseless populace is an act of > compassion is perverse. I totally agree. This is why people need to stop voting for Republicans. Or isn't that what you meant by "inflicting dangerous predators on a defenseless populace"? > The idea that a kiss on the cheek and a mantra will > extirpate dangerous criminal tendencies from all criminals is, itself, > criminal. > I am not familiar with this approach. Is it something Foucault dreamed up? In fact, however, it sounds far more likely to succeed in "extirpating dangerous criminal tendencies from all criminals" than the present legal system in the United States. > If you've never had a conversation with someone that you quickly realize is > willing and able to kill you right there on the spot should the merest shift > in wind or mood strike him, a realization that makes you tremble to your > depths, then you are not in a position to fully appreciate what is at stake. > This sounds like something that Gareth Keenan (from the BBC comedy The Office [http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/theoffice/]) would say. He would follow it up by offering to demonstrate five different ways to kill a man using a napkin dispenser and a paper clip. Were you ever in the Territorial Army, Dan? > The necessity of prisons is not to be conflated with: > 1. issues of false imprisonment, > If one does not "conflate" "the necessity of prisons" with the "issue of false imprisonment" then how does one pretend to know that the bad guys are in prison and the good guys are not? Isn't that the point? The real question is - who is Dan arguing with? Who has said any of the things that Dan is arguing against? My own personal view is that society has both the right and the responsibility to punish people who "do wrong" and to protect "the rest of us". I know of no evidence that the American system of justice does anything of this sort. - Curt From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 10 09:32:51 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed May 10 09:32:52 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction In-Reply-To: <005101c6743f$1b3975b0$f7339c04@Dan> References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org><003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> <4461EFA3.3040207@xs4all.nl> <005101c6743f$1b3975b0$f7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <446207A3.6020204@xs4all.nl> Dan Lusthaus schreef: >Erik wrote: > > >>I don't think one example proves a lot and I hate conversasiotns where >> >> >only examples and counter examples are exchanged. An important question one >has to answere is: what's the objective of punishment?Is it: > >Of course not. Why should reality or anything empirical intrude on one's >fantasies? > > A fantasy would be to turn one example into a universal rule. Logic tells us that a universal proposition covers an unlimited number of cases, so the corroboration of an example to a rule is always 0.l > > >> * revenge >> * honouring the public feeling of justice, or >> * prevention? >> >> > >If you go back and reread what I wrote, the answer is that some people are >too dangerous to be allowed to prey on others. "Revenge" is merely a label >one gives to someone else's sense of justice when one doesn't approve or >agree. To deny a society the right to establish justice would be perverse >and injust. > > Revenge is derived from joy caused by the awareness of the suffering of an evildoer, in such a way that this joy is considered a compensation for the suffering of the victim. This is what's called 'getting even'. > > >>The Old Testament prescribes revenge, >> >> > >Actually, that is the Christian myth (= deliberate misreading) of the Hebrew >scriptures. It's a devious and yet transparent way for Christians to disown >two incredibly brutal millennia while reassuring themselves that they are >morally superior to their victims and each other. Which is why the Rabbinic >tradition outlawed capital punishment -- based on its reading of the >scriptures -- two thousand years ago (they set the bar so high, that in >practical terms, virtually no human situation would fulfill the >requirements). Rabbinic ethics center on balancing chesed (loving-kindness, >mercy) with din (stern justice), the former considered the higher value; >either extreme, when untempered by the other, leads to bad consequences. >Middle Way. > > I'm happy to learn this. > > >>most judges nowadays appeal to a >>feeling of justice expressed in the law and jurisprudence. >> >> > >Judges, if they are doing their job, implement the law (which is usually >written by others). If they don't, they are not judges but vigilantes. > > Never heared of hermeneutics in law? Sorry Dan, but this is a bit na?ve. > > >>One >>thing is certain however: the prison today is a crime university. (Read >>Michel Foucalt's 'Discipline and punishment'). Most inmates are prone to >>go back where to came from, even better prepared. >> >> > >That generalism doesn't even rise to the status of an example or >counterexample. There are lots of problems with Foucault's version of >institutional history (driven, as it is, by an agenda grounded in a deep >nostalgia for the lost wholeness of the Church). > I know some experts on Foucault, but no one would suspect Foucault of having Catholic nostalgia. I suppose this is a reliable source you're quoting? >In the American judicial >system, the stress and resources were devoted to rehabilitation over >"punishment" for several decades (1950s-70s), but the results were >unsatisfactory and depressing. Recidivism didn't decline, actual >rehabilitation was a rare event, and the crime rate soared. While some >argued that more effective rehabilitative methods should be sought, others >(who have dominated policy since) rejected that argument and insisted that >prisons shouldn't "coddle" criminals. Whatever one thinks of the >heartlessness of that theory, crime rates have dropped. Whether Europe has >been following a similar or different trajectory, I don't know. > > I'm very suspicious of this kind of statistics, I saw other ones which were not very optimistic. I don't care of you coddle criminals or crusify them, more important is not to surrender to feelings of anger and hatred, simply because those emotions don't help one to act effectively. Further it's always best for a criminal not to be one. So we have to prevent crime. In Europe most countries have a moderate regime. Foucault showed that fysical punishment has been replaced by surveillence and control and even medicalisation. He doesn't say that's a bad thing, nor that this make us bettter people. Of course pedofiles and serial criminals have to be put away. In Holland we have special institutions for those kind of criminals. They're treated and some come out after 20 years or so. But more and more people appear to be incurable and they're stuck for life. >Some people really are icchantikas. > > > > I'm not in a position to criticize the crime policy in the U.S. , but I wonder if some societies don't stimulate the growing of criminal personalities more then others (legalisation of weapons, consumer oriented, oversexed, violence oriented, anti-intellectualist, monothe?stic, etc.). But I would say this is a problem for sociologists. As a Buddhist I would say that no individual has a criminal nature (aatma, svabhaava) and therefore it's useless to develop hatred for something that doesn't exist. -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Wed May 10 10:14:32 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed May 10 10:14:51 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org><003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> <4461FF52.10406@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <009a01c6744c$d6532eb0$f7339c04@Dan> > > inflicting dangerous predators on a defenseless populace is an act of > > compassion is perverse. > > I totally agree. This is why people need to stop voting for Republicans. > Or isn't that what you meant by "inflicting dangerous predators on a > defenseless populace"? Have no fear. Sizeable portions of Republican administrations get indicted, and a good percentage of those get incarcerated. It's a well-established tradition going back to the Nixon administration. Perhaps you'd like to arrest all the people that vote for those fools in the first place (or just revoke their right to vote)? > > If you've never had a conversation [...]. > > This sounds like something that Gareth Keenan (from the BBC comedy The > Office [http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/theoffice/]) would say. Anyone who has had the sort of conversation I mentioned wouldn't find much humor in it. > Were you ever in the > Territorial Army, Dan? Like countless others, I managed -- with great effort -- to avoid military service. > If one does not "conflate" "the necessity of prisons" with the "issue of > false imprisonment" then how does one pretend to know that the bad guys > are in prison and the good guys are not? Isn't that the point? You do the best you can -- appeals, judicial constraints, etc. Beyond a "reasonable doubt" does not mean metaphysical certainty. The alternative -- holding no one to account since one cannot be sure with metaphysical certainty -- would produce the kind of anarchy that would lead people to overcompensate with undisciplined vigilantism. > The real question is - who is Dan arguing with? Who has said any of the > things that Dan is arguing against? Gad Horowitz quoting Eugene Debs. > My own personal view is that society has both the right and the > responsibility to punish people who "do wrong" and to protect "the rest > of us". I know of no evidence that the American system of justice does > anything of this sort. It could certainly do a better job. Dan Lusthaus From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Wed May 10 13:42:56 2006 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Wed May 10 10:31:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie><445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl><001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> <009c01c67325$9a5bf5e0$5d339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <009701c67469$efcfd100$7dee6480@chass> Debs spent months in prison without finding any crazy mothers. But Lusthaus prefers to follow Pryor. Well, you can't stop progress ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Lusthaus" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope > > It's SO EASY for us righteous "liberals"--hey, we're "compassionate" > > "buddhists too--to oppose the death penalty. Whatever happened to the > > movement for PRISON ABOLITION? Eugene Debs:"While there is a soul in > > prison, I am not free". He did'nt say "innocent soul" > > Richard Pryor, after giving a performance in a prison and meeting the > prisoners, said in one of his subsequent routines: > > "There are lots of crazy motherf***ers in there! (long pause; frightened > look on his face) Thank God there are prisons!" > > Dan Lusthaus > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Wed May 10 10:41:58 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed May 10 10:42:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <44615B50.6060902@cola.iges.org><003501c67422$7eddc110$f7339c04@Dan> <4461EFA3.3040207@xs4all.nl><005101c6743f$1b3975b0$f7339c04@Dan> <446207A3.6020204@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00a501c67450$ab9a7530$f7339c04@Dan> Eric, > Never heared of hermeneutics in law? Sorry Dan, but this is a bit na?ve. That's precisely what implementing law entails. Of course it is interpretive. That's what judges do: they wade through the conflicting interpretations advocated by the opposing lawyers based on precedents, legal principles, etc. > I know some experts on Foucault, but no one would suspect Foucault of > having Catholic nostalgia. They need to read more carefully. Foucault's nostalgia is not a naive pining for an arche when everything was whole and integrated rather than fragmented and mutated -- he knows that wish is impossible and misguided, so it is steeped in its own ironic impossibility. The shrewder readers of Foucault see that everywhere in his writings. > As a Buddhist I would say that no individual has a criminal nature > (aatma, svabhaava) and therefore it's useless to develop hatred for > something that doesn't exist. It's not a matter of svabhava or atma-vada, but of vasanas, bijas and entrenched karmic habits that can take lifetimes to work through. Dan Lusthaus From jmp at peavler.org Wed May 10 11:04:33 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Wed May 10 11:04:44 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Beyond Hope In-Reply-To: <009701c67469$efcfd100$7dee6480@chass> References: <007801c66e48$f9d0f700$2930cece@charlie> <445DD299.9080908@xs4all.nl><006401c67208$be734cd0$2930cece@charlie><445F5702.2070106@xs4all.nl><001a01c672cd$3f8e7280$7dee6480@chass> <009c01c67325$9a5bf5e0$5d339c04@Dan> <009701c67469$efcfd100$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: On May 10, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Gad Horowitz wrote: > Debs spent months in prison without finding any crazy mothers. But > Lusthaus > prefers to follow Pryor. Well, you can't stop progress While most folks in American prisons are pretty normal chaps who desire more than anything to get out and try to live a normal life, there are also plenty of crazy motherf****ers (that is motherfuckers in the vernacular) in prisons who must be kept separate from others. One of my favorite poet, Jimmy Santiago Baca, spent some hard time in prisons in New Mexico and Arizona that he describes in his book "A Place to Stand". It you would like to know what life is like in a modern maximum security prison pick up this book: http://www.jimmysantiagobaca.com/booksmerchandise.html or I also understand Dan's comment about facing a person who would just as soon kill you as look at you. I have had the opportunity to do that several times, and it always takes me several days to get over it, once I have realized that it had happened to me. Usually, at the moment it is happening, a person is in a kind of shock and is busy figuring a way to not cause the person to kill him. A few hours later, I have kind of a mental collapse, as the realization makes itself conscious. Then I get the cold sweats and I can't get it off of my mind. My first experience of this was when I had just graduated from high- school. I worked for the game and fish department, mostly building fences and digging holes for outdoor toilets at camp grounds. But I also rode a lot with the game warden. We were often called out to investigate poachers, and on two occasions the object of our interest, armed to the teeth, threatened to kill us both. The game warden was a soft-spoken fellow who managed to talk the men down, but I later dealt with the fact that someone had pointed a large gun at me and threatened to kill me with it. I was mugged in the middle of the night in Detroit once, when I was at a convention of Mediaevalists. I had a similar reaction. Again, I used to teach college courses to inmates at Stateville prison near Joliet, IL. I had a large Irishman killer in the class who constantly interrupted the class until I finally told him to leave. I learned from the other students later that Cohen had talked about killing me because throwing him out of the class had cost him "good time" and he was being kept in his cell instead of getting to hang out in the television room or library to go to class. From then on a couple of the students met me at the gatehouse and escorted me to the class room and back to the gatehouse. This was a different experience from the others because after a couple of weeks Cohen was back out in the yard, or working in the gardens where there was nothing between him and me except my friends within the prison. At the request of the other students in the class, Cohen's threat to me was never revealed to the guards. That might have actually endangered the privilege of having college classes taught in the prison. There are folks who have to be kept separated from society for society's good. I do NOT believe that they should be kept in what is essentially solitary confinement. In most modern prisons (many of which, by the way, are privately run for-profit institutions) it is common to remove "privileges" like having access to books or magazines, television, radio, music, sports, real exercise (they get to walk an hour or two a week in a small open area). I think this is cruel and unusual punishment and must be stopped. However, these "modern" prisons often don't even have facilities to treat prisoners humanely. I believe the worst punishment that can be meted on a social animal is isolation and sensory deprivation. And isolation and sensory deprivation is the most common punishment of "criminals" today, even if there crime is no more serious than possessing, or being with a person who possesses, some illegal drug. From elihusmith at yahoo.com Wed May 10 12:11:11 2006 From: elihusmith at yahoo.com (Elihu Smith) Date: Wed May 10 12:11:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] food for thought re: prison and sexual predators/murderers Message-ID: <20060510181111.86779.qmail@web81905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is a current news article which points out some of the issues of public safety vs individual human rights for all to contemplate. The full story is on the http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4756435.stm: "A sex attacker who killed a mother-of-one while on licence from a life sentence was "too dangerous" to be released, a watchdog has said. Anthony Rice, 48, was freed nine months before he stabbed Naomi Bryant in her home in Winchester in August last year. Rice had been given a 10-year minimum term in 1989 for attempted rape. Two parole requests were turned down before he was released in November 2004 having served 16 years. The Parole Board concluded he presented only a "minimal risk"... Mr Bridges said prison and other officials were side-tracked by considering Rice's human rights above their duties to the public. In 2001 a decision by the Parole Board to move him to an open prison, created a "momentum towards release". And the board's final decision to free him "gave insufficient weight to the underlying nature of his risk of harm to others". But the board had received "over optimistic" reports of Rice's progress under treatment and did not have a full picture of his previous crimes. Rice strangled Ms Bryant, 40, and stabbed her to death only days after they had met. " So, in this real world of Buddha Dharma - what are the choices which are compassionate and alleviate suffering for all? Elihu From srhodes at boulder.net Wed May 10 19:39:38 2006 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Wed May 10 19:40:13 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction In-Reply-To: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> Message-ID: <446295DA.6010407@boulder.net> Dear Bernie, I believe that this discussion is in The Precious Garland (vv. 330-337), not in The Friendly Letter. Best wishes, Steve Bernie Simon wrote: > Since we're on the subject of prison, I recall that Nagarjuna had > something to say about the subject in his Letter to a Friend. I find > this text valuable because it's one of the few that I know of that > speak about the political and social implications of Buddhism. Perhaps > some of the list members know of some other texts. > > http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dsantina/friend.htm > > Nagarjuna does not neglect even the case of offenders against the law, > common criminals. Even those who deserve punishment because of their > ill deeds should be treated with compassion. Compassion should in > fact be generated even towards those who have committed awful crimes. > Murderers in particular should be objects of compassion for those who > are of a virtuous nature. > > Nagarjuna went so far as to concern himself with the treatment of > prisoners. He recommends that the weaker prisoners be freed after a > single day or at the most five days of imprisonment. Indeed, one > should never think of imprisoning anyone for life]. In fact, the > simple thought of imprisoning someone for life is a cause of breaking > the Buddhist layman's Commitment to protect life. > > Conditions in the prisons too do not escape Nagarjuna's attention. He > says that as long as prisoners are not freed, they should be made > comfortable. They should be provided with barbers, baths, food, drink > and medicine. Finally, Nagarjuna expresses a concept that only dawned > upon western social philosophers at the time of the eighteenth century > so called "enlightenment" in Europe. That is, wrong doers should be > punished with the sole wish to reform them, not with the wish to exact > revenge or retribution. Like sons who have gone astray, prisoners > should be punished in such a way as to make them once again worthy > members of society. > > ---- > Bernie Simon / Jinpa Zangpo > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From mike at lamrim.org.uk Thu May 11 00:36:26 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Thu May 11 00:36:57 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction In-Reply-To: <446295DA.6010407@boulder.net> References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net> <446295DA.6010407@boulder.net> Message-ID: In message <446295DA.6010407@boulder.net>, Steven Rhodes writes >I believe that this discussion is in The Precious Garland (vv. >330-337), not in The Friendly Letter. Here it is, for those who don't have it: 330 Even if they rightfully have fined, Bound or punished people and so forth, You, being softened with compassion, Should always take care [of the offenders]. 331 O King, through compassion you should always Generate an attitude of help Even for all those embodied beings Who have committed appalling sins. 332 Especially generate compassion For those murderers, whose sins are horrible; Those of fallen nature are receptacles Of compassion from those whose nature is great. 333 Free the weaker prisoners After a day or five days, Do not think the others Are never to be freed. 334 For each one whom you do not think To free you will lose the layman's vow, Because you will have lost the vow Faults will constantly be amassed. 335 As long as the prisoners are not freed, They should be made comfortable With barbers, baths, food, drink, Medicine and clothing. 336 Just as unworthy sons are punished Out of a wish to make them worthy, So punishment should be enforced with compassion And not through hatred or desire for wealth. 337 Once you have analysed the angry Murderers and recognised them well, You should banish them without Killing or tormenting them. -- Metta Mike Austin From marshallarts at bigpond.com Thu May 11 01:09:43 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Thu May 11 01:09:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl> <005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> Hi Stephen, Just so I don't get tangled up in these names again, did Xuanzang write Si-Yu-Ki? Does this translate as Buddhist Records of Western Countries or Records of Western Countries? Many thanks! Kate From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Thu May 11 05:07:52 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Thu May 11 05:07:58 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and Jail In-Reply-To: <200605101800.k4AI0P6K004183@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20060511110752.22004.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is quite a good book review about a prisoner on death row in San Quentin who became a buddhist. The review is on the Journal of Global Buddhism: http://www.globalbuddhism.org/6/cunnell05.htm In 1997, The African-American writer, Buddhist, and Death Row prisoner Jarvis Masters published a book of personal essays and stories indicting the squalor, torture, masculine rage and unaccountability of authority in San Quentin prison, stories that are inscriptions of the multiple strategies of physical and spiritual renewal and resilience practised by men condemned to lifelong imprisonment and the threat of execution. The book was published under the title Finding Freedom: Writings from Death Row. Masters' writing is strongly informed by his discovery and practice while in prison of Tibetan Buddhism, and Finding Freedom is most obviously a text closely concerned with self-reflective discourse and spiritual practices designed, as Masters writes, to "take me out of prison even as I remain here."(3) It is then, only when he appears finally condemned, entombed, and discarded that Masters begins the processes that will lead him to a renunciation of the discourses and action of violent masculinity, those 'patriarchal notions of cool,' by which bell hooks argues young black men in particular are seduced; the "politics of being a gangsta (the) invitation to embrace death as the only logic of black male existence, and towards a newly positive identity embracing reflection, selflessness, and compassion." One of my favorite poet, Jimmy Santiago Baca, spent some hard time in prisons in New Mexico and Arizona that he describes in his book "A Place to Stand". It you would like to know what life is like in a modern maximum security prison pick up this book: http://www.jimmysantiagobaca.com/booksmerchandise.html or I --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060511/29b43e28/attachment.htm From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Thu May 11 07:31:04 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu May 11 08:14:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> <000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> Message-ID: <002d01c67505$61d9fc80$b24d4e51@zen> Dear Kate, > Just so I don't get tangled up in these names again, did Xuanzang write > Si-Yu-Ki? No. That is the title of the medieval novel, loosely inspired by Xuanzang's trip, which is normally translated as "Monkey". Best wishes, Stephen |odge From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Thu May 11 08:18:07 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu May 11 08:18:17 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> <000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> Message-ID: <005701c67505$baa6fcf0$5c369c04@Dan> > Just so I don't get tangled up in these names again, did Xuanzang write > Si-Yu-Ki? Does this translate as Buddhist Records of Western Countries or > Records of Western Countries? Many thanks! > > Kate Kate, Si-yu-ki is an archaic transliteration of what in pinyin would be Xiyuji, in Wade-Giles Hsi Yu Chi. Xi = west, yu = country, capital city or region, ji = record. So record of Western lands. Xuanzang wrote it at the request of the emperor once he returned to China. The best (and only complete) translation is the one by Li Rongxi, through the Numata series, _The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Lands_. Li has also translated the biography of Xuanzang written by his contemporaries and published soon after he died, in the Numata version (also, the only complete translation available), _A Biography of the Tripitaka Master of the Great Ci'en Monastery of the Great Tang Dynasty_. Dan Lusthaus From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 11 08:32:08 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu May 11 08:32:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist social deconstruction References: <471be2c0c965851cbebb63f0d983f913@toad.net><446295DA.6010407@boulder.net> Message-ID: <000701c67507$af188b40$2930cece@charlie> > 337 Once you have analysed the angry > Murderers and recognised them well, > You should banish them without > Killing or tormenting them. > > -- > Metta > Mike Austin ----------------------------------------- Banishment is no longer a viable choice as it might have been in ancient times with smaller populations and kingdoms-----even deporting people (a version of banishment) can't be enforced today----they just come back. The really dangerous criminals today should be locked up for life, but I agree with Jim that they should not be put in solitary......that's cruel (if common rather than unusual) punishment. It does not have a chance of any shade of reformation. The fact that much of US prisons are farmed out on private contracts suggests that inside supervision of the 'custodies' is probably not adequate, according to any concept of sila anyway. (But then, maybe it never was?) Joanna From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Thu May 11 11:42:57 2006 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu May 11 11:42:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> <005701c67505$baa6fcf0$5c369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <001901c67522$6cc649b0$405b4e51@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote, >> Just so I don't get tangled up in these names again, did Xuanzang write >> Si-Yu-Ki? Does this translate as Buddhist Records of Western Countries >> or >> Records of Western Countries? Many thanks! > Si-yu-ki is an archaic transliteration of what in pinyin would be Xiyuji, > in > Wade-Giles Hsi Yu Chi. Dan is, of course, right. Silly me ! However, the "Monkey" novel is also transliterated as Si-yu-ki = Xiyuji / Hsi-yu-chi, but then the underlying character for "yu" is different -- something like "travel, wander". This title can be translated as "Journey to the West", on which Wikipedia has a thorough article. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From amayer at uiuc.edu Thu May 11 12:02:50 2006 From: amayer at uiuc.edu (Alexander Mayer) Date: Thu May 11 12:20:02 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang In-Reply-To: <001901c67522$6cc649b0$405b4e51@zen> References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><00070 1c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> <005701c67505$baa6fcf0$5c369c04@Dan> <001901c67522$6cc649b0$405b4e51@zen> Message-ID: Transliteration from Chinese ... The Monkey book by Wu Cheng'en ?d?"?? (ca. 1500-1582) is Xi you ji, Records of Travels in the West "Xuanzang's" book is Xiyu ji, Records of the Western Territories Observe that in Wade-Giles the yu4 in Xiyu is y?; the you in Monkey is you2. Best -- Alexander Mayer >Dan Lusthaus wrote, > >>>Just so I don't get tangled up in these names again, did Xuanzang write >>>Si-Yu-Ki? Does this translate as Buddhist Records of Western Countries or >>>Records of Western Countries? Many thanks! > >>Si-yu-ki is an archaic transliteration of what in pinyin would be Xiyuji, in >>Wade-Giles Hsi Yu Chi. > >Dan is, of course, right. Silly me ! However, >the "Monkey" novel is also transliterated as >Si-yu-ki = Xiyuji / Hsi-yu-chi, but then the >underlying character for "yu" is different -- >something like "travel, wander". This title >can be translated as "Journey to the West", on >which Wikipedia has a thorough article. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS at Urbana-Champaign LAS -- EALC/RLST 3016 FLB, MC-146 707 S. Mathews Avenue Urbana, IL 61801 FAX (217) 244-8753 tel. o. (217) 244-2293 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060511/4356285f/attachment.html From suvanna at sfbuddhistcenter.org Thu May 11 12:36:45 2006 From: suvanna at sfbuddhistcenter.org (Dh. Suvarnaprabha) Date: Thu May 11 14:14:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement In-Reply-To: <200605111743.k4BHhLmw027065@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: >...solitary......that's cruel (if common rather than unusual) punishment. It does not have a chance of any shade of reformation. I think being solitary does have some potential for reformation if they at least could have some quality reading material! http://users.aristotle.net/~anna/news/nytart.html Cheers, Suvarnnaprabha (who teaches med. at the county jail and has been lurking around here for a while...) : : : Suvarnaprabha (AKA Suvanna) Director, San Francisco Buddhist Center Friends of the Western Buddhist Order Web: http://www.sfbuddhistcenter.org From marshallarts at bigpond.com Thu May 11 15:35:13 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Thu May 11 15:35:23 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> <005701c67505$baa6fcf0$5c369c04@Dan><001901c67522$6cc649b0$405b4e51@zen> Message-ID: <001701c67542$c98de9d0$6900a8c0@katies> Re: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan ZhangThank you for your replies, Stephen, Dan and Alexander. One last question - would someone please have a look at http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Hsien-Tsang.htm and let me know if this is a translation of Book I of Xuanzang's work. Thank you! Kate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060512/70555165/attachment.html From richard.nance at gmail.com Thu May 11 16:03:50 2006 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Thu May 11 16:03:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang In-Reply-To: <001701c67542$c98de9d0$6900a8c0@katies> References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl> <005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie> <000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies> <005701c67505$baa6fcf0$5c369c04@Dan> <001901c67522$6cc649b0$405b4e51@zen> <001701c67542$c98de9d0$6900a8c0@katies> Message-ID: Kate -- if you're looking for a complete e-text of the Beal translation of the Xiyuji, you can download one here: http://sw.chibs.edu.tw/~mb/tools/beal/indexBeal.html Best wishes, R. Nance From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 11 17:31:41 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu May 11 17:31:34 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement References: Message-ID: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> True--I should've said I wasn't factoring in meditation programs. Reminded of the film about the meditation programs taught to prisoners in India, and the movie about it, _Doing Time, Doing Vipassana_. JK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dh. Suvarnaprabha" To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:36 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement > >...solitary......that's cruel (if common rather than unusual) punishment. > It does not have a chance of any shade of reformation. > > I think being solitary does have some potential for reformation if they at > least could have some quality reading material! > http://users.aristotle.net/~anna/news/nytart.html > Cheers, Suvarnnaprabha (who teaches med. at the county jail and has been > lurking around here for a while...) > > : : : > Suvarnaprabha (AKA Suvanna) > Director, San Francisco Buddhist Center > Friends of the Western Buddhist Order > Web: http://www.sfbuddhistcenter.org > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/336 - Release Date: 5/10/2006 > > From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu May 11 18:25:28 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Thu May 11 18:25:34 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Vesak In-Reply-To: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: A very happy Vesak to everyone. May all beings be well and happy! W.F. Wong From marshallarts at bigpond.com Fri May 12 01:05:46 2006 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Fri May 12 01:05:58 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] In the footsteps of Xuan Zhang References: <4455D908.9030109@xs4all.nl><005a01c66d23$badc23b0$2930cece@charlie><000701c674c9$e119a2c0$6900a8c0@katies><005701c67505$baa6fcf0$5c369c04@Dan><001901c67522$6cc649b0$405b4e51@zen><001701c67542$c98de9d0$6900a8c0@katies> Message-ID: <000501c67592$7e612ad0$6900a8c0@katies> Thanks, Richard! This is exactly what I'm looking for. Regards Kate From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri May 12 03:08:07 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Fri May 12 03:08:11 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China In-Reply-To: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4757125.stm Someone I know was in Dharamsala recently to try to persuade H.H. to visit his country. Apparently, H.H. was putting off many trips in anticipation of an invitation for reconciliation talks in China. I guess the above news means the end of that. Sigh... W. F. Wong From meindzai at yahoo.com Fri May 12 05:28:24 2006 From: meindzai at yahoo.com (David Kotschessa) Date: Fri May 12 07:25:49 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement In-Reply-To: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <20060512112824.33484.qmail@web32108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- jkirk wrote: > True--I should've said I wasn't factoring in > meditation programs. Reminded > of the film about the meditation programs taught to > prisoners in India, and > the movie about it, _Doing Time, > Doing Vipassana_. > JK http://www.mro.org/zmm/rightaction/nbps.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Fri May 12 10:40:54 2006 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Fri May 12 07:30:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement References: Message-ID: <000b01c675e2$d6caa020$7dee6480@chass> Decades and decades of experience with prisons shows that they are more part of the problem than part of the solution. Crime and prison arise in dependence on one another. Prison, no matter what the lip service paid to "correction" i s on the whole not at all conducive to change for the better of the human beings caged therein like rats. Vengeance and self righteousness is the name of the game. Just suggest for a moment the possibility of movement towards abolition and all those who have not sinned start frothing at the mouth about serial killers and pedophiles. The fact that many many prisoners are no more violent than you all is hardly mentioned. My question is: When Debs says: While there is a criminal element I am of it;While there is a soul in prison I am not free--is he not manifesting a better understanding of emptiness and codependent arising than many of you fine Buddhists? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dh. Suvarnaprabha" To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:36 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement > >...solitary......that's cruel (if common rather than unusual) punishment. > It does not have a chance of any shade of reformation. > > I think being solitary does have some potential for reformation if they at > least could have some quality reading material! > http://users.aristotle.net/~anna/news/nytart.html > Cheers, Suvarnnaprabha (who teaches med. at the county jail and has been > lurking around here for a while...) > > : : : > Suvarnaprabha (AKA Suvanna) > Director, San Francisco Buddhist Center > Friends of the Western Buddhist Order > Web: http://www.sfbuddhistcenter.org > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jmp at peavler.org Fri May 12 08:42:51 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri May 12 08:43:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement In-Reply-To: <000b01c675e2$d6caa020$7dee6480@chass> References: <000b01c675e2$d6caa020$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <38212494-6CBE-4252-A030-24E68F5C05FD@peavler.org> On May 12, 2006, at 10:40 AM, Gad Horowitz wrote: > When Debs says: While there is a criminal element I am of > it;While there is a soul in prison I am not free--is he not > manifesting a > better understanding of emptiness and codependent arising than many > of you > fine Buddhists? I wish you wouldn't start calling us names. From curt at cola.iges.org Fri May 12 09:35:10 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri May 12 09:35:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement In-Reply-To: <000b01c675e2$d6caa020$7dee6480@chass> References: <000b01c675e2$d6caa020$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <4464AB2E.30707@cola.iges.org> To be fair to all of the fine Buddhists out there, Debs was working within a somewhat different theoretical framework. Debs accepted (and not without good reason, in my opinion) a "class struggle" analysis of human society. If one uses such an analysis the fundamental question is always "which side are you on?". While such a viewpoint probably sounds anathema to most Buddhists, it is the only workable perspective if one wants to organize labor unions (which was what Debs was mostly interested in). As individuals, workers have virtually no power whatsoever, but united into a union they can make their presence felt, to say the least. If you look into it, its really kind of interesting to realize that unions set out to teach people to identify their own interests with those of others (their fellow workers). But this is not done as an abstract exercise in consciousness raising - and so there is the additional factor or recognizing that there are those whose interests conflict with yours (those dirty Capitalists). Capitalists also want workers to see their own interests as being identified with that of the interests of others. But, rather perversely, the capitalists want workers to identify with ... the capitalists! And the capitalists further desire that the workers should see each other as competitors and potential enemies. Socialists propose something much more reasonable - that workers should find common cause with each other - and view those who exploit them as their enemies. The underlying idea behind Debs statements concerning criminals and prisoners is that so long as the capitalists are in charge then it is more important to identify with and make common cause with "criminals" and prisoners, because they are (except for the occasional Enron executive) one's fellow workers - and, therefore, one's proper allies. It is the bosses who seek to divide the workers against each other - and so long as workers are divided they will be slaves. Etc. The reason why this is important is because Debs, although extremely idealistic (even for a socialist) was not coming from a perspective that ruled out, in principle, the very idea of imprisonment and other forms of punishment for wrongdoers. In fact a labor union must have a certain amount of internal discipline, with rules, leaders, decision making bodies, and ways of implementing decisions (such as, for instance, going on strike). This inevitably involves coercion and/or the threat of coercion (like, for instance, picket lines) - as unpleasant as that sounds (and, in fact, is). Bottom line: Deb's apparent high-mindedness is not quite as sweeping as the quote, all by itself, might seem to imply. - Curt Gad Horowitz wrote: > Decades and decades of experience with prisons shows that they are more part > of the problem than part of the solution. Crime and prison arise in > dependence on one another. Prison, no matter what the lip service paid to > "correction" i s on the whole not at all conducive to change for the better > of the human beings caged therein like rats. Vengeance and self > righteousness is the name of the game. Just suggest for a moment the > possibility of movement towards abolition and all those who have not sinned > start frothing at the mouth about serial killers and pedophiles. The fact > that many many prisoners are no more violent than you all is hardly > mentioned. > My question is: When Debs says: While there is a criminal element I am of > it;While there is a soul in prison I am not free--is he not manifesting a > better understanding of emptiness and codependent arising than many of you > fine Buddhists? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dh. Suvarnaprabha" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:36 AM > Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement > > > >>> ...solitary......that's cruel (if common rather than unusual) punishment. >>> >> It does not have a chance of any shade of reformation. >> >> I think being solitary does have some potential for reformation if they at >> least could have some quality reading material! >> http://users.aristotle.net/~anna/news/nytart.html >> Cheers, Suvarnnaprabha (who teaches med. at the county jail and has been >> lurking around here for a while...) >> >> : : : >> Suvarnaprabha (AKA Suvanna) >> Director, San Francisco Buddhist Center >> Friends of the Western Buddhist Order >> Web: http://www.sfbuddhistcenter.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 12 09:37:32 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri May 12 09:37:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Speaking of prison, saving folks from, and going to: Message-ID: <002901c675d9$fc7f1de0$2930cece@charlie> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1744943,00.html He doesn't claim to be Buddhist, but the ideals of the 60s were heavily influenced by Buddhism. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 12 09:44:59 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri May 12 09:44:50 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] solitary confinement References: <000b01c675e2$d6caa020$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <005101c675db$06f142c0$2930cece@charlie> 'Fine Buddhists'? who says we are fine? Joanna ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` > My question is: When Debs says: While there is a criminal element I am > of > it;While there is a soul in prison I am not free--is he not manifesting a > better understanding of emptiness and codependent arising than many of you > fine Buddhists? From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 12 09:56:23 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri May 12 09:56:15 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <007d01c675dc$9ebae060$2930cece@charlie> HH would perhaps be better off in many ways if he simply ignored the Shugden Dorje business, as it certainly creates the occasion for China to make trouble for him by maintaining schismatic action. Joanna > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4757125.stm > > Someone I know was in Dharamsala recently to try to persuade H.H. to visit > his country. Apparently, H.H. was putting off many trips in anticipation > of an invitation for reconciliation talks in China. I guess the above news > means the end of that. Sigh... > > W. F. Wong > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/336 - Release Date: 5/10/2006 > > From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Fri May 12 12:06:00 2006 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Fri May 12 12:07:56 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie> <007d01c675dc$9ebae060$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E14E1@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> It should be obvious to anybody that knows anything about the Dalai Lama that he did not encourage the destruction of these statues in any way. Is the Orwellian double-speak of the Chinese official not obvious enough? "What the Dalai Lama has done violates the religious freedom of believers." It is a cynical exploitation of unfortunate events. I was under the impression that the destruction of 6000 temples and monasteries and the continued suppression of religion by the Chinese government has done a little to violate the "religious freedom of believers". When His Holiness recommends (not ban) that his followers cease a relatively modern and esoteric religious practice that is thought to lead to sectarian divisions, that is not a violation of religious freedom. It is merely a recommendation. China has supported the building of Shugden temples specifically to foster this sort of antagonism. Let's be clear about what is going on here. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of jkirk Sent: Fri 5/12/2006 8:56 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China HH would perhaps be better off in many ways if he simply ignored the Shugden Dorje business, as it certainly creates the occasion for China to make trouble for him by maintaining schismatic action. Joanna > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4757125.stm > > Someone I know was in Dharamsala recently to try to persuade H.H. to visit > his country. Apparently, H.H. was putting off many trips in anticipation > of an invitation for reconciliation talks in China. I guess the above news > means the end of that. Sigh... > > W. F. Wong > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/336 - Release Date: 5/10/2006 > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060512/d934a3da/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 12 13:49:28 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri May 12 13:49:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie><007d01c675dc$9ebae060$2930cece@charlie> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E14E1@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c675fd$2f47d410$2930cece@charlie> RE: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and ChinaYou misunderstood me. I was not 'criticising' the Dalai Lama, I only suggested that political knowledge of China would imply that continuing to actively oppose a sect that China is deliberately cultivating (knowing that HH had hopes of and was trying to be invited to China for diplomatic talks) gives China an excuse to blame any sort of sectarian hoopla in Tibet on HH. I can assure you that I'm entirely clear about what is going on here. Best wishes, Joanna It should be obvious to anybody that knows anything about the Dalai Lama that he did not encourage the destruction of these statues in any way. Is the Orwellian double-speak of the Chinese official not obvious enough? "What the Dalai Lama has done violates the religious freedom of believers." It is a cynical exploitation of unfortunate events. I was under the impression that the destruction of 6000 temples and monasteries and the continued suppression of religion by the Chinese government has done a little to violate the "religious freedom of believers". When His Holiness recommends (not ban) that his followers cease a relatively modern and esoteric religious practice that is thought to lead to sectarian divisions, that is not a violation of religious freedom. It is merely a recommendation. China has supported the building of Shugden temples specifically to foster this sort of antagonism. Let's be clear about what is going on here. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of jkirk Sent: Fri 5/12/2006 8:56 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China HH would perhaps be better off in many ways if he simply ignored the Shugden Dorje business, as it certainly creates the occasion for China to make trouble for him by maintaining schismatic action. Joanna > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4757125.stm > > Someone I know was in Dharamsala recently to try to persuade H.H. to visit > his country. Apparently, H.H. was putting off many trips in anticipation > of an invitation for reconciliation talks in China. I guess the above news > means the end of that. Sigh... > > W. F. Wong > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/336 - Release Date: 5/10/2006 > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/336 - Release Date: 5/10/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060512/34db4c20/attachment.html From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri May 12 19:29:13 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Fri May 12 19:29:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China In-Reply-To: <000f01c675fd$2f47d410$2930cece@charlie> References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie><007d01c675dc$9ebae060$2930cece@charlie> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E14E1@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <000f01c675fd$2f47d410$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, jkirk wrote: > I was not 'criticising' the Dalai Lama, I only suggested that political > knowledge of China would imply that continuing to actively oppose a sect > that China is deliberately cultivating (knowing that HH had hopes of and > was trying to be invited to China for diplomatic talks) gives China an > excuse to blame any sort of sectarian hoopla in Tibet on HH. I can > assure you that I'm entirely clear about what is going on here. Best My reading of it is that this *particular* incident and news item is an indication of either (a) the negotiations between China and the Tibetan government-in-exile has gone south or (b) China is trying to strengthen its hand in the negotiation. Otherwise, even though the Chinese government may very well be encouraging the Shugden sect to antagonize H.H., this incident won't have happened at this crucial point in time - or even if it did by accident, the outside world would not have heard of it. >From what little hearsay I got, the Tibetan government-in-exile has high hopes of this round of negotiation and in particular of the invitation for H.H. to visit China. Apparently they went to some length including burning some bridges in Taiwan to make this happen. Now this. I am afraid the hand is in China's favour. They can continue to play games and then wait for H.H. to pass on before proclaiming their own incarnation of the Dalai Lama. Even if the latter is not acceptable to most Tibetans in exile, it will create the necessary divisive effect. W.F. Wong NB: All my "info" are NOT first hand. All my opinions are purely speculative. From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 12 20:35:44 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri May 12 20:35:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] H.H. the Dalai Lama and China References: <000501c67553$0f7c7d70$2930cece@charlie><007d01c675dc$9ebae060$2930cece@charlie><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E14E1@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><000f01c675fd$2f47d410$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <004701c67635$ef803960$2930cece@charlie> Persuasive points, Weng Fai. Haven't the Chinese always had the upper hand, since HH doesn't have the means, nor the intention nor motivation, to go to war against them? The balance of power is heavily on the Chinese side of the equation and has been since he fled Tibet and probably, by doong so saved his life. So even if he lost his country, he has attained the status of a world leader that he might not have attained (so far as global media are concerned) had he remained in Tibet. Joanna =============== > My reading of it is that this *particular* incident and news item is an > indication of either (a) the negotiations between China and the Tibetan > government-in-exile has gone south or (b) China is trying to strengthen > its hand in the negotiation. Otherwise, even though the Chinese government > may very well be encouraging the Shugden sect to antagonize H.H., this > incident won't have happened at this crucial point in time - or even if it > did by accident, the outside world would not have heard of it. > >>From what little hearsay I got, the Tibetan government-in-exile has high > hopes of this round of negotiation and in particular of the invitation for > H.H. to visit China. Apparently they went to some length including burning > some bridges in Taiwan to make this happen. Now this. > > I am afraid the hand is in China's favour. They can continue to play games > and then wait for H.H. to pass on before proclaiming their own incarnation > of the Dalai Lama. Even if the latter is not acceptable to most Tibetans > in exile, it will create the necessary divisive effect. > > W.F. Wong > > NB: All my "info" are NOT first hand. All my opinions are purely > speculative. > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/336 - Release Date: 5/10/2006 > > From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 14 03:37:57 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun May 14 03:37:51 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] future of the book Message-ID: <4466FA75.7010200@xs4all.nl> Since we're all into books many of list might find this interesting. I have a slight reservation: the copyright issue has more bearing on popular books like 'The Davinci Code' then on buddhological or scientific ones. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/magazine/14publishing.html?th&emc=th -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 16 11:56:10 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 16 11:56:10 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI Message-ID: <003601c67912$04574c00$2930cece@charlie> Treasures of the Sand. [Mongolia] http://www.tibetan-museum-society.org/java/arts-culture-opening.jsp http://www.tibetan-museum-society.org/java/arts-culture-Danzan-Ravjaa.jsp Culture heroes, avatars, Buddhism in the Gobi----about resisting Soviet repression, hiding sacred collections, and finally after perestroika, reviving Buddhism. For history buffs~~~~~~~~` There's lots more on this site. Joanna From jmp at peavler.org Fri May 19 11:55:36 2006 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri May 19 11:56:04 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fwd: Tibetan Museum Society Benefit References: <13515618.1147953182728.JavaMail.root@server1.wordmarque.com> Message-ID: <74AA1794-4CF3-40CC-AFC2-0903D596B04F@peavler.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: Bob Tagert > Date: May 18, 2006 5:58:49 AM MDT > To: buddha-l-owner@mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Tibetan Museum Society Benefit > > > > > > The Tibetan Museum Society in association with iGavel: > A marketplace of auction house professionals, offering online > auctions of fine art, > antiques & collectibles ? all with guarantees for authenticity and > condition. > > > > > > > > > Online Auction May 16 - 25, 2006 ? The items for sale in this > benefit auction are all a part of our continuing efforts to > conserve and share with the world, important works of Buddhist art > from Mongolia and the greater Himalayan region. The TMS auction and > gallery are funding sources for our online exhibition, for which, > we conserve many artifacts, photograph them, catalog them, research > them, and include several, among our online exhibit, which reaches > thousands of viewers every month from over 100 countries. In this > way, we are better able to accumulate a large digital museum that > is self-supporting, which allows us to use donated funds for other > significant projects that benefit all concerned. To visit our > benefit auction, click here. > > TMS is pleased to offer this professional online environment in > association with iGavel. President of iGavel, Lark E. Mason, Jr. > was formerly Director of Online Auctions, Sothebys.com. Prior to > that, he served as Senior Vice President of Sotheby?s Chinese > Department for 18 years. With a University of Tennessee MBA Degree, > he completed Sotheby?s Works of Art program in London. Lark is a > board member of the Metropolitan Historic Structures Association in > New York City and an Elder of the Manhattan Church of Christ. He is > the author of Asian Art, an acclaimed guide to arts of the East, > and translator ofConnoisseurship of Chinese Furniture by Wang Shi- > Xiang and Classic Chinese Furniture from the Qing Dynasty by Tian > Jiaqing. Lark Mason appears frequently as an appraiser on PBS? > ?Antiques Roadshow.? To visit the benefit auction, click here. > > > > > If you wish to no longer recieve these notices, please follow this > link to unsubscribe: Unsubscribe > > From leigh at deneb.org Mon May 22 20:02:31 2006 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein (d)) Date: Mon May 22 20:02:52 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Someone asked me this recently. I was wondering what traditional Buddhist terms correspond in some sense to the Western idea "Buddhist" and whether, in particular, Buddha was considered to be a monk or subject to the ordination vows. If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it seems like Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does that mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and practices the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only complete or fully Buddhist. Besides this, there is the possibility of very different concepts about these things in the different Buddhist schools. Can someone point me to traditional sources on these subjects, if they exist? Thanks, Leigh From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon May 22 20:08:29 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Mon May 22 20:08:36 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: Which begs the question: Was Jesus a Christian, a Catholic, a Methodist, or a Southern Baptist? W.F. Wong From srhodes at boulder.net Mon May 22 20:14:05 2006 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Mon May 22 20:14:58 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <44726FED.9000404@boulder.net> Or, the old question, was Marx a Marxist? Steven Rhodes Wong Weng Fai wrote: >Which begs the question: Was Jesus a Christian, a Catholic, a Methodist, >or a Southern Baptist? > >W.F. Wong > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 22 20:23:40 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 22 20:23:39 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <004501c67e0f$e80049a0$2930cece@charlie> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leigh Goldstein (d)" Someone asked me this recently. I was wondering what traditional Buddhist terms correspond in some sense to the Western idea "Buddhist" and whether, in particular, Buddha was considered to be a monk or subject to the ordination vows. If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it seems like Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does that mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and practices the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only complete or fully Buddhist. Besides this, there is the possibility of very different concepts about these things in the different Buddhist schools. Can someone point me to traditional sources on these subjects, if they exist? Thanks, Leigh ================== What is the "western idea Buddhist"? Do you really think there is only one such idea extant today? or 2500 years ago? Why are these questions relevant to following the Buddha's dharma? Who cares if the Buddha fits some description or doesn't fit it? Who is figuring out who is a complete Buddhist and who is not-- and why? What do you mean by "traditional sources"? Try dealing with just one of the traditions or schools, get to know it really well. By then I'd guess that such questions will have vanished. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 5/19/2006 From tatelman at sympatico.ca Mon May 22 21:54:28 2006 From: tatelman at sympatico.ca (J Tatelman) Date: Mon May 22 21:54:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca> It may be that the Buddha wasn't a Buddhist any more than Jesus was a Christian. Cheers, Joel. On May 22, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Leigh Goldstein ((d)) wrote: > > Someone asked me this recently. I was wondering what traditional > Buddhist > terms correspond in some sense to the Western idea "Buddhist" and > whether, > in particular, Buddha was considered to be a monk or subject to the > ordination vows. > > If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it > seems like > Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who > follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does > that > mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? > > On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and > practices > the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only > complete > or fully Buddhist. > > Besides this, there is the possibility of very different concepts about > these things in the different Buddhist schools. > > Can someone point me to traditional sources on these subjects, if they > exist? > > Thanks, > Leigh > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Mon May 22 22:37:30 2006 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Mon May 22 22:37:37 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> I think the question of the Buddha being Buddhist is entirely different from the question of Jesus being Christian. Jesus was a Jew. In fact, he was a Rabbi. He never left the faith. He never spoke of starting a new religion. Certainly he was critical of certain elements of the Jewish power elite, but that does not mean he was intending to start a new religion. Christianity and the theology of a messiah dying for the sins of humanity was a creation of the early community of Jesus' followers in the first century after his death. As for the Buddha being a Buddhist, I think the question is sort of irrelavent from a Buddhist perspective. We can't really make the determination based on refuge, because once one is a Buddha, there is no need for refuge. Refuge is taken *until* one achieves Buddhahood. Unlike Jesus, the Buddha was introducing a new spiritual path. He was heterodoxical not only in the face of Vedic Brahminism, but even in the context of the sramana movement, his worldview and approach was quite radical. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of J Tatelman Sent: Mon 5/22/2006 8:54 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist It may be that the Buddha wasn't a Buddhist any more than Jesus was a Christian. Cheers, Joel. On May 22, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Leigh Goldstein ((d)) wrote: > > Someone asked me this recently. I was wondering what traditional > Buddhist > terms correspond in some sense to the Western idea "Buddhist" and > whether, > in particular, Buddha was considered to be a monk or subject to the > ordination vows. > > If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it > seems like > Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who > follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does > that > mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? > > On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and > practices > the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only > complete > or fully Buddhist. > > Besides this, there is the possibility of very different concepts about > these things in the different Buddhist schools. > > Can someone point me to traditional sources on these subjects, if they > exist? > > Thanks, > Leigh > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060522/edfd9fd1/attachment.html From mike at lamrim.org.uk Tue May 23 00:48:01 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Tue May 23 00:48:32 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: In message <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA>, "Leigh Goldstein (d)" writes > >If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it seems like >Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who >follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does that >mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? Does someone who has walked a path remain a walker after he arrives at the destination? He would be the one who has walked, or the one who has 'thus gone' - the Tathagata. Then refuge is sometimes referred to as a 'safe direction'. This would have no application for a Buddha - just as facing north would have no application to someone at the north pole. >On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and practices >the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only complete >or fully Buddhist. A Buddha has reached parinirvana, but he is not a Buddha because he has arrived there but because he remains there. By this, I mean that it is not a 'static' state, but there is no return to samsara. -- Metta Mike Austin From tatelman at sympatico.ca Tue May 23 05:42:26 2006 From: tatelman at sympatico.ca (J Tatelman) Date: Tue May 23 05:42:54 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> Jim, Very good points! But what have you in mind when you write that the Buddha was radical "even in the context of the sramana movement"? What about Mahavira, for example? Joel. On May 23, 2006, at 12:37 AM, Blumenthal, James wrote: > I think the question of the Buddha being Buddhist is entirely > different from the question of Jesus being Christian.? Jesus was a > Jew.? In fact, he was a Rabbi.? He never left the faith.? He never > spoke of starting? a new religion.? Certainly he was critical of > certain elements of the Jewish power elite, but that does not mean he > was intending to start a new religion.? Christianity and the theology > of a messiah dying for the sins of humanity was a creation of the > early community of Jesus' followers in the first century after his > death. > > As for the Buddha being a Buddhist, I think the question is sort of > irrelavent from a Buddhist perspective. We can't really make the > determination based on refuge, because once one is a Buddha, there is > no need for refuge.? Refuge is taken *until* one achieves Buddhahood.? > Unlike Jesus, the Buddha was introducing a new spiritual path. He was > heterodoxical not only in the face of Vedic Brahminism, but even in > the context of the sramana movement, his worldview and approach was > quite radical. > Jim Blumenthal > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060523/b5a5a6f4/attachment-0001.bin From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue May 23 07:30:51 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue May 23 07:31:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <44730E8B.3080400@xs4all.nl> Mike Austin schreef: > In message <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA>, "Leigh Goldstein > (d)" writes > >> >> If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it >> seems like >> Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who >> follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does >> that >> mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? > > > Does someone who has walked a path remain a walker after he arrives > at the destination? He would be the one who has walked, or the one who > has 'thus gone' - the Tathagata. Then refuge is sometimes referred to > as a 'safe direction'. This would have no application for a Buddha - > just as facing north would have no application to someone at the north > pole. Not having to follow a safe direction oneself doesn't mean that one has no idea of a safe direction for geings in general. The Buddha taught the dharma and was himself the living proof. He told that the dharma is the right direction and that he followed it. He didn't change his carreer and become a carsalesman or a politician. So, yes of course he was a Buddhist, like Mahaaviira was a Jain. Jezus is another story, because christianity was the invention of St. Paul. > >> On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and >> practices >> the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only >> complete >> or fully Buddhist. > > > A Buddha has reached parinirvana, but he is not a Buddha because he > has arrived there but because he remains there. By this, I mean that > it is not a 'static' state, but there is no return to samsara. There are sutra's where previous Buddha's are mentioned and the Buddha himself followed teachings which were part of a tradition too. The word 'buddha' had some meaning, so I 'm not sure if it's not possible to see him as a member of an existing tradition of buddha's. -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Tue May 23 08:42:27 2006 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Tue May 23 08:43:09 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Hi Joel, When I said that he was radical even in the context of the sramana movement, I was thinking primarily of the doctrines of anatman and impermanence. While many sramanas were focussing their practices on realizing their true atman in order to find some union with Brahman, the unchanging ultimate reality, the Buddha taught that such an atman does not exist, nor does an unchanging Brahman. I think Mahavira was also quite radical at that time. Perhaps that is part of the reason the paths that these two figures taught persisted when most faded away. Jim P.S. I think that the Buddha's "middle way" approach to asceticism was also probably quite radical at the time when many sramanas were practicing pretty extreme forms of asceticsim. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of J Tatelman Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 4:42 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist Jim, Very good points! But what have you in mind when you write that the Buddha was radical "even in the context of the sramana movement"? What about Mahavira, for example? Joel. On May 23, 2006, at 12:37 AM, Blumenthal, James wrote: > I think the question of the Buddha being Buddhist is entirely > different from the question of Jesus being Christian. Jesus was a > Jew. In fact, he was a Rabbi. He never left the faith. He never > spoke of starting a new religion. Certainly he was critical of > certain elements of the Jewish power elite, but that does not mean he > was intending to start a new religion. Christianity and the theology > of a messiah dying for the sins of humanity was a creation of the > early community of Jesus' followers in the first century after his > death. > > As for the Buddha being a Buddhist, I think the question is sort of > irrelavent from a Buddhist perspective. We can't really make the > determination based on refuge, because once one is a Buddha, there is > no need for refuge. Refuge is taken *until* one achieves Buddhahood. > Unlike Jesus, the Buddha was introducing a new spiritual path. He was > heterodoxical not only in the face of Vedic Brahminism, but even in > the context of the sramana movement, his worldview and approach was > quite radical. > Jim Blumenthal > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060523/430c0529/attachment.htm From curt at cola.iges.org Tue May 23 08:58:25 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue May 23 08:59:19 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <44732311.2010400@cola.iges.org> The Buddha was definitely a "follower of the Way" - or at least he is certainly conceived as such in "traditional" Buddhism. He is also generally assumed to have kept the highest possible standards in regard to his personal conduct. Certainly no "traditional" Buddhist would think anything other than that whatever the Buddha taught, he also practiced. One "traditional" source that might not be obvious would be Master Keizan's "Transmission of the Lamp". This is a series of "transmission" stories going from Shakyamuni Buddha to Dogen. Other sources to check out would be modern works on the Buddha's life that make use of primary sources. One that is short and sweet is Sherab Chodzen Kohn's "Awakened One" - which hits the high points and can easily be read in a few hours. The Buddha was a very successful teacher in his own lifetime - at least so the story goes. That would seem to mean that there is a good chance that the movement that bears his name also bears some resemblance to what he himself set in motion. This is to be contrasted with the situation of Jesus - who had very little impact in his lifetime, and, therefore, much less direct impact on the mass religious movement that was associated with him much later. So arguing from Christianity to Buddhism with regard to the relationship between the founder and the movement is hazardous. - Curt Leigh Goldstein (d) wrote: > Someone asked me this recently. I was wondering what traditional Buddhist > terms correspond in some sense to the Western idea "Buddhist" and whether, > in particular, Buddha was considered to be a monk or subject to the > ordination vows. > > If a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels, it seems like > Buddha could not be a Buddhist. If a Buddhist is a sentient being who > follows the Buddhist path, then Buddha could not be a Buddhist. Does that > mean that someone ceases to be a Buddhist when they become a Buddha? > > On the other hand, if someone is a Buddhist who understands and practices > the Buddhist doctrines and methods, then Buddha would be the only complete > or fully Buddhist. > > Besides this, there is the possibility of very different concepts about > these things in the different Buddhist schools. > > Can someone point me to traditional sources on these subjects, if they > exist? > > Thanks, > Leigh > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Tue May 23 14:25:27 2006 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue May 23 14:26:15 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: Gang, I think nearly the whole field of the history of religion stands with Jim Blumenthal in thinking Siddhartha Gautama's relationship to Hinduism--at least in the last half of his life--is quite different than Jesus of Nazareth's relationship to Judaism. (The theological question of whether they are "Buddhists" or "Christians" is quite another matter.) I'm not sure I'd say it was doctrinal matters (such as anatman) that separate Buddha from the general run of the sramana movement, though. The movement, as far as I know or guess, was really only united by one thing: being sramanas rather than householders. There was a huge range of ideas represented in it, including radical materialism. Still, I agree that the Buddha's ideas were pretty "out there." What I'd add to this, what I personally think was exceptional in his sangha, was his emphasis on the middle way. Where almost *all* sramanas had tapas, asceticism, as their raison d'etre, and gained their status that way, the Buddha and his sangha explicitly rejected this approach. This and their acceptance of non-Brahmin members--and, later, women--set them quite apart from other groups and on the road to being--too at last return to the subject of this thread--"Buddhist," not "Hindu." That's what I think, anyway, though I'm far from a scholar on this subject. Franz From bcarral at kungzhi.org Tue May 23 14:47:57 2006 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Tue May 23 14:49:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <748348364.20060523224757@kungzhi.org> On Tuesday, May 23, 2006, Blumenthal, James wrote: > When I said that he was radical even in the context > of the sramana movement, I was thinking primarily of > the doctrines of anatman and impermanence.?While many > sramanas were focussing their practices on realizing > their true atman in order to find some union with > Brahman [...] Is there any real difference there? I'm quite convinced that the Old Indian Guy didn't teach anything revolutionary--I see him more like a pragmatic. There was not only a kind of forest wanderers. Some of them wanted to unite their atman with Brahma, some of them don't. I think that the Buddha just taught a different approach, "Do you want to unite your atman with Brahma? Well, show me your atman and I will show you Brahma," "Do you want to remain skeptical? I will give you skepticism." I think that the Abhidhammic tradition devolped a whole radical and illogical system in order to find a solid place in the Indian spiritual market. Then some latter traditions as Chan recovered the full atman/Brahman approach, "Discover your true luminous nature." Best wishes, Beni From meindzai at yahoo.com Tue May 23 15:49:18 2006 From: meindzai at yahoo.com (David Kotschessa) Date: Tue May 23 15:55:26 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <748348364.20060523224757@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <20060523214918.35503.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Benito Carral wrote: > On Tuesday, May 23, 2006, Blumenthal, James wrote: > > > When I said that he was radical even in the > context > > of the sramana movement, I was thinking primarily > of > > the doctrines of anatman and impermanence.?While > many > > sramanas were focussing their practices on > realizing > > their true atman in order to find some union > with > > Brahman [...] > > Is there any real difference there? I'm > quite > convinced that the Old Indian Guy didn't teach > anything > revolutionary--I see him more like a pragmatic. > > There was not only a kind of forest wanderers. > Some > of them wanted to unite their atman with Brahma, > some > of them don't. > > I think that the Buddha just taught a > different > approach, "Do you want to unite your atman with > Brahma? > Well, show me your atman and I will show you > Brahma," > "Do you want to remain skeptical? I will give > you > skepticism." > > I think that the Abhidhammic tradition > devolped a > whole radical and illogical system in order to > find a > solid place in the Indian spiritual market. > > Then some latter traditions as Chan recovered > the > full atman/Brahman approach, "Discover your > true > luminous nature." > > Best wishes, > > Beni I have heard it argued that Buddhas an-atman was not really so much a philosophical argument, but a reaction to some of the brahmanic craziness that had escalated during his time. Allegedly, according to this poster (whose post I cannot now find) there were folks who were physically looking for the tiny self located in the body. This obsession (attachment) required a cure, which Dr. Gotama graciously provided with anatman. When I read the Upanishads, I believe that I am reading mythology, and that the "self" they speak of is just a vehicle they used for liberation, as is the "Brahma" they were seeking to unite with. I don't even see a conflict with Buddhist practice, just a more flowery language. The authors of any mythology know that what they are writing is fiction, poetry, allegory and so forth. After they die off, what they leave behind is probably first read as it it was intended, then begins to lose it's fictive qualities over time. If it's still around for a few thousand years it will become religion to many people. I believe that the Buddha cut through the mythology, cut through the poetry, and tried to get right to the heart of of the matter. As far as I'm concerned, self or no-self, it's the same thing. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Wed May 24 08:56:56 2006 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Wed May 24 08:57:38 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Self and Non self in Early Buddhism In-Reply-To: <000a01c65d1e$e4b72e10$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <20060524145656.73245.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Does anyone have acess to JSTOR or NUMEN? I am wondering whether you can help me get the review of "Self and Non self in Early Buddhism by J. Perez-Remon" by Steven Collins. (Numen, Vol. 29, No. 2 (Dec., 1982) , pp. 250-271) Please reply offline. Thanks, Rahula --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060524/f271a508/attachment.html From curt at cola.iges.org Wed May 24 12:00:10 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed May 24 12:00:29 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <44749F2A.1020202@cola.iges.org> Is there clear, or even suggestive, evidence to support the idea that "Buddhism" and "Hinduism" are mutually exclusive? "Exclusivism" is not a feature of religions in general (although it is a feature of certain religions) - and it is specifically not a feature of Buddhism - at least in practice. I also think a strong case can be made that it is not a general feature of Hinduism. If neither Buddhism nor Hinduism are exclusive in general - is there reason form assuming that they are specifically exclusive of each other? - Curt Franz Metcalf wrote: > Gang, > > I think nearly the whole field of the history of religion stands with > Jim Blumenthal in thinking Siddhartha Gautama's relationship to > Hinduism--at least in the last half of his life--is quite different > than Jesus of Nazareth's relationship to Judaism. (The theological > question of whether they are "Buddhists" or "Christians" is quite > another matter.) > > I'm not sure I'd say it was doctrinal matters (such as anatman) that > separate Buddha from the general run of the sramana movement, though. > The movement, as far as I know or guess, was really only united by one > thing: being sramanas rather than householders. There was a huge range > of ideas represented in it, including radical materialism. Still, I > agree that the Buddha's ideas were pretty "out there." What I'd add to > this, what I personally think was exceptional in his sangha, was his > emphasis on the middle way. Where almost *all* sramanas had tapas, > asceticism, as their raison d'etre, and gained their status that way, > the Buddha and his sangha explicitly rejected this approach. This and > their acceptance of non-Brahmin members--and, later, women--set them > quite apart from other groups and on the road to being--too at last > return to the subject of this thread--"Buddhist," not "Hindu." > > That's what I think, anyway, though I'm far from a scholar on this > subject. > > Franz > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Wed May 24 12:39:21 2006 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Wed May 24 12:40:27 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <44749F2A.1020202@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154A@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Curt, Usually when the term "exclusivism" is used it refers to religious traditions which claim to have an exclusive hold on the truth and the means to salvation as most evangelical Christians believe ("take Jesus as your personal savior or go to hell". Clearly neither Buddhist nor Hindu traditions are exclusivist in this way. The question of whether they are exclusive of one another is another question and quite a bit more complicated, an excellent point which your question highlights. We only need to look at Newari Buddhism in the Kathmandu Valley (or most any form of Buddhism) to see a perfect example of the blurriness of the line Westerners like to draw between traditions. Many Newars follow both Buddhist traditions and worship Hindu gods at their respective temples. Perhaps the issue comes to a question of whether we are investigating doctrine or popular practice. And then there are those who identify with another religion like Judaism or Christianity, but engage in Buddhist contemplative practices as well and benefit from them. Does that make them Christian and Buddhist? If one is nominally Buddhist on the basis of taking spiritual refuge in the Three Jewels, then probably not. Except in the most liberal sense, I do not see how somebody can both seek salvation through Jesus and take their spiritual refuge in the three Jewels. But it is certainly a grey area and an interesting topic of conversation. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97213 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of curt Sent: Wed 5/24/2006 11:00 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist Is there clear, or even suggestive, evidence to support the idea that "Buddhism" and "Hinduism" are mutually exclusive? "Exclusivism" is not a feature of religions in general (although it is a feature of certain religions) - and it is specifically not a feature of Buddhism - at least in practice. I also think a strong case can be made that it is not a general feature of Hinduism. If neither Buddhism nor Hinduism are exclusive in general - is there reason form assuming that they are specifically exclusive of each other? - Curt Franz Metcalf wrote: > Gang, > > I think nearly the whole field of the history of religion stands with > Jim Blumenthal in thinking Siddhartha Gautama's relationship to > Hinduism--at least in the last half of his life--is quite different > than Jesus of Nazareth's relationship to Judaism. (The theological > question of whether they are "Buddhists" or "Christians" is quite > another matter.) > > I'm not sure I'd say it was doctrinal matters (such as anatman) that > separate Buddha from the general run of the sramana movement, though. > The movement, as far as I know or guess, was really only united by one > thing: being sramanas rather than householders. There was a huge range > of ideas represented in it, including radical materialism. Still, I > agree that the Buddha's ideas were pretty "out there." What I'd add to > this, what I personally think was exceptional in his sangha, was his > emphasis on the middle way. Where almost *all* sramanas had tapas, > asceticism, as their raison d'etre, and gained their status that way, > the Buddha and his sangha explicitly rejected this approach. This and > their acceptance of non-Brahmin members--and, later, women--set them > quite apart from other groups and on the road to being--too at last > return to the subject of this thread--"Buddhist," not "Hindu." > > That's what I think, anyway, though I'm far from a scholar on this > subject. > > Franz > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060524/808a58c7/attachment.html From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Wed May 24 15:16:24 2006 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed May 24 15:16:51 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154A@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <44749F2A.1020202@cola.iges.org> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154A@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: Curt, James, et al., You raise provocative questions on exclusivity and inclusivity. Questions I can't answer. I'll just say two things. Regarding Hinduism and Buddhism, in India they both defined themselves in opposition to each other and influenced each other tremendously--especially on the philosophical level. In truth, as Curt intimates, they're not-two. As for Christian-Buddhist practice, I don't think there's one clear way to do it, but I can tell you I've met folks who are deeply sincere and seem highly accomplished in both paths. I'm sure you met similar folks, not just dabblers, but seasoned practitioners. To me, it's all metaphor, so I say good for them. Best, Franz From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Wed May 24 15:24:41 2006 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Wed May 24 15:27:41 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <44749F2A.1020202@cola.iges.org> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154A@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154F@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> >...... To me, it's all >metaphor, so I say good for them. > >Best, > >Franz The Christian philosopher Georges Santayana described religions as like poems. They are creative expressions of a worldview and path to salvation. Some prefer Shakespeare, others Ginsberg. Jim Blumenthal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060524/b55c4eb7/attachment.htm From leigh at deneb.org Wed May 24 16:58:01 2006 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein (d)) Date: Wed May 24 16:58:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nagarjuna quote? In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154F@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <003301c67f85$87fc3ab0$0200020a@BORABORA> I recall a quote, maybe Nagarjuna, something like, "There are only two people in India who can recognize the true Buddhist teaching, and when I go to Nepal next month, there will only be one." Is there really some such quote, and do you have a reference for it? -Leigh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060524/ad499942/attachment.htm From jkirk at spro.net Wed May 24 16:58:05 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed May 24 16:59:08 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><44749F2A.1020202@cola.iges.org> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154A@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <004901c67f85$89c00ac0$2930cece@charlie> RE: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist"Perhaps the issue comes to a question of whether we are investigating doctrine or popular practice." James Blumenthal --------------- These are at least two dimensions of approaching the issue of religious identity, when it becomes an issue. As you noted, James, it is not a big issue with the Newars of Nepal so far as worship is concerned. It may however be an issue for Newars so far as samskaras--life rituals--are concerned (although I'm not sure about it on that score.) We also see that among Thais and Burmans, both mainly Theravada Buddhist, Hindu gods and local spirits are also worshipped, along with the Buddha, who is usually treated as a god in popular practice despite what the monks and preceptors teach. So among these populations the concept of anatta gets short shrift. Burmans believe in the butterfly soul, the entity that transmigrates from lifetime to lifetime. This doesn't correspond to anatta. Doctrine rarely converges with practice in popular religion. In the Pali suttas, the Buddha often debates with practicing Jains or members of various sampradayas who challenge him as to the efficacy or truth of his teachings. He wins these debates, of course. In this instance we can see that he, the Buddha, is making distinctions between what he teaches and what they teach--doctrinal distinctions. In that sense I'd say he is making exclusive claims about his teachings. The sutta stories reveal that some of the preceptors of the other sampradayas are insistent on the superiority of their views as against his. Thus, one could infer that there was a deal of exclusiveness going on in those days, probably also with some folks running around from teacher to teacher, seeking the best bets for salvation. Joanna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060524/df710f7f/attachment.html From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu May 25 08:21:17 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu May 25 08:21:16 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <004901c67f85$89c00ac0$2930cece@charlie> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA><20b666f8fcfadd72d50fb13ab6ee47eb@sympatico.ca><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153C@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <159bee3c5234903d56d9d76facd22aaa@sympatico.ca> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E153D@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><44749F2A.1020202@cola.iges.org> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E023E154A@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <004901c67f85$89c00ac0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <4475BD5D.1070607@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: > "Perhaps the issue comes to a question of whether we are investigating > doctrine or popular practice." James Blumenthal > --------------- > These are at least two dimensions of approaching the issue of > religious identity, when it becomes an issue. As you noted, James, it > is not a big issue with the Newars of Nepal so far as worship is > concerned. It may however be an issue for Newars so far as > samskaras--life rituals--are concerned (although I'm not sure about it > on that score.) > We also see that among Thais and Burmans, both mainly Theravada > Buddhist, Hindu gods and local spirits are also worshipped, along with > the Buddha, who is usually treated as a god in popular practice > despite what the monks and preceptors teach. So among these > populations the concept of anatta gets short shrift. Burmans believe > in the butterfly soul, the entity that transmigrates from lifetime to > lifetime. This doesn't correspond to anatta. Doctrine rarely converges > with practice in popular religion. > > In the Pali suttas, the Buddha often debates with practicing Jains or > members of various > sampradayas who challenge him as to the efficacy or truth of his > teachings. He wins these debates, of course. In this instance we can > see that he, the Buddha, is making distinctions between what he > teaches and what they teach--doctrinal distinctions. In that sense I'd > say he is making exclusive claims about his teachings. The sutta > stories reveal that some of the preceptors of the other sampradayas > are insistent on the superiority of their views as against his. Thus, > one could infer that there was a deal of exclusiveness going on in > those days, probably also with some folks running around from teacher > to teacher, seeking the best bets for salvation. > > Joanna > Maybe in the Buddha's days there was foremost a difference between brahmins, householders and sramana's and the Buddhists were just one among the different groups of sramana's who all greed on the unsatisfactoryness of daily life some kind of personal liberation. Lateron, after the rise of devotion cults in hindu?sm and buddhism, things became complicated, because rituals were exchanged. But even in the Bhagavadgita and in the Pata?jaliyogasutra's there's a strong buddhist influence. When you finally look at tantrism, the dividing line becomes even more blurry, because some mahasiddha's are worshipped both in hindu?sm and buddhism and they don't seem to care about any doctrinal differences. Some tantra's also have many hindu elements. Kalacakra is Shiva, so is Mahakala. -- Groet Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From curt at cola.iges.org Thu May 25 09:26:31 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu May 25 09:27:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nagarjuna quote? In-Reply-To: <003301c67f85$87fc3ab0$0200020a@BORABORA> References: <003301c67f85$87fc3ab0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <4475CCA7.1000000@cola.iges.org> Who was the other one? - Curt Leigh Goldstein (d) wrote: > > > I recall a quote, maybe Nagarjuna, something like, "There are only > two people in India who can recognize the true Buddhist teaching, > and when I go to Nepal next month, there will only be one." > > Is there really some such quote, and do you have a reference for it? > > -Leigh > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From bcarral at kungzhi.org Thu May 25 14:35:23 2006 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Thu May 25 14:35:41 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> Message-ID: <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> Dear Buddha-L friends, I would like to share with you some additional thoughts about this topic--I'm sorry I have not time to develop them, but I'm sure that you will be able to do it if you wish. :-) My starting point is that the Buddha was no so different from other forest wanderers. If we consider the canonical account of his early practice, we found that he studied under two well-known teachers. He didn't understand his own system as a new approach, but as an improvement of his teacher's ones. Then if we study what such an improvement was, we find that it was a question of how much attachment one discards. To use a well-know conceptualization, the Buddha thought that his teachers were still attached to atman, and what he discovered is that there is not atman, that atman is Brahman. Of course, I don't think that this was something new is the forest scene, and I believe that the "improvement" was a creation of the later tradition. If we consider now his first teaching to the five disciples, we can get a clue to understand how the Buddha was different, he was highly charismatic. I think that the Buddha's success was based on three fundamental points (none of them related to doctrinal innovation), his charisma, his pragmatism (he taught everyone according to his capacities, without a fixed Dharma, centered on experience), and his ethical standard. I have dealt yet with the issue of his reform of the Brahmanical tradition because I don't think it was important. The Buddha was not the only reformer, it was just what was expected of a forest wanderer. I don't think this facet of his ministry had much to do with his success, which I think was based on the three points I mentioned above. In short, I don't think that the Buddha was a great innovator at all, but a very charismatic, pragmatic, and ethical guy of the forest scene. Best wishes, Beni From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri May 26 03:55:04 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri May 26 03:55:48 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: In message <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org>, Benito Carral writes > > In short, I don't think that the Buddha was a great >innovator at all, but a very charismatic, pragmatic, >and ethical guy of the forest scene. > One knows the Buddha by knowing the dharma. Stories from history play a very minor role in this. The difference is like that between a Buddhist and a Buddhologist. Whereas it could be debatable whether the Buddha was a Buddhist, I would say he was certainly not a Buddhologist. -- Metta Mike Austin From bcarral at kungzhi.org Fri May 26 05:05:35 2006 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Fri May 26 05:05:47 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <711832323.20060526130535@kungzhi.org> On Friday, May 26, 2006, Mike Austin wrote: >> In short, I don't think that the Buddha was a great >> innovator at all, but a very charismatic, pragmatic, >> and ethical guy of the forest scene. > One knows the Buddha by knowing the dharma. Stories > from history play a very minor role in this. If you think that stories play a "very minor role," it's clear that you know little about how traditions works. > Whereas it could be debatable whether the Buddha was > a Buddhist, I would say he was certainly not a > Buddhologist. Maybe I entered the wrong room, I thought this is a Buddhist discussion forum, isn't? Best wishes, Beni From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri May 26 05:36:53 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri May 26 05:37:18 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <711832323.20060526130535@kungzhi.org> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <711832323.20060526130535@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: In message <711832323.20060526130535@kungzhi.org>, Benito Carral writes >> One knows the Buddha by knowing the dharma. Stories >> from history play a very minor role in this. > > If you think that stories play a "very minor role," >it's clear that you know little about how traditions >works. I say again, stories from history only play a minor role in knowing the Buddha - the awakened one. On the other hand, they may well play a major role in knowing about Sidartha Gautama - the historical figure. From my limited experience, such historical knowledge has not really helped much to reduce dukkha. In fact, if someone 'proved' that Sidartha Gautama was a mythical figure, it would not make the slightest difference to me. So you are correct, I know little about how traditions work. But neither am I bothered. >> Whereas it could be debatable whether the Buddha was >> a Buddhist, I would say he was certainly not a >> Buddhologist. > > Maybe I entered the wrong room, I thought this is a >Buddhist discussion forum, isn't? Yes. Have I gone off topic somewhere? -- Metta Mike Austin From bcarral at kungzhi.org Fri May 26 06:15:14 2006 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Fri May 26 06:15:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <711832323.20060526130535@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <854981455.20060526141514@kungzhi.org> On Friday, May 26, 2006, Mike Austin wrote: > I say again, stories from history only play a minor > role in knowing the Buddha - the awakened one. On the > other hand, they may well play a major role in > knowing about Sidartha Gautama - the historical > figure. Come one, Mike, we were talking about Siddhattha Gotama (the historical Buddha), we were not talking about the Buddhas invented by the different traditions, but trying to understand who Siddhattha was. One can't know the Buddha because there is not only one Buddha. For example, the mythical Buddhas of the Tibetan traditions have little to do with the mythical Buddhas of the Theravada or Chan traditions. I always teach my students to be clear about which Buddha we are talking about--are we talking about the historical Buddha? or the Mazu's, Dogen's, or Mipham's one? So, Mike, if you don't want to know the historical Buddha, which one do you want to know about? > From my limited experience, such historical knowledge > has not really helped much to reduce dukkha. This used to be a "Buddhist Academic Discussion Forum." It seems that someone decided to rename it downplaying the "academic" side (see the current description on the web), but as far as I know, it is not restricted to orthodox discussion according to the mainstream (or the western liberal) Buddhist schools. Anyway, Mike, we were talking about the historical Buddha. Best wishes, Beni From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri May 26 07:49:49 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri May 26 07:50:24 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <854981455.20060526141514@kungzhi.org> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <711832323.20060526130535@kungzhi.org> <854981455.20060526141514@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: In message <854981455.20060526141514@kungzhi.org>, Benito Carral writes >On Friday, May 26, 2006, Mike Austin wrote: > >> I say again, stories from history only play a minor >> role in knowing the Buddha - the awakened one. On the >> other hand, they may well play a major role in >> knowing about Sidartha Gautama - the historical >> figure. > > Come one, Mike, we were talking about Siddhattha >Gotama (the historical Buddha), we were not talking >about the Buddhas invented by the different traditions, >but trying to understand who Siddhattha was. That's OK. My interests are in neither of these, per se, but in what the teachings and practices are that eliminate dukkha, so I can use them. It may be that there are many of these behind superficial presentations. I appreciate that your interest, on this particular occasion at least, is more from an historical perspective. > I always teach my students to be clear about which >Buddha we are talking about--are we talking about the >historical Buddha? or the Mazu's, Dogen's, or Mipham's >one? So, Mike, if you don't want to know the historical >Buddha, which one do you want to know about? The Buddha as the 'mind' behind the dharma teachings, accessible through putting those teachings into practice: that is the Buddha I want to know about. The historical Buddha is the same as Siddartha, renamed after an historical event called Buddha's enlightenment. This teaches me nothing, unless I unravel what is meant by 'buddha' ('awakened one') for myself. >> From my limited experience, such historical knowledge >> has not really helped much to reduce dukkha. > > This used to be a "Buddhist Academic Discussion >Forum." It seems that someone decided to rename it >downplaying the "academic" side (see the current >description on the web) The Buddhist list was merged with the Buddha-L list several years ago. I was subscribed to both. They met different, shall we say, 'markets'. But I still suggest that the teachings of the Buddha - the dharma - are what characterises Buddhists rather that the historical figure. That is why I drew the distinction between Buddhists and Buddhologists. Otherwise, it tends to become mere history. Then, even in a purely academic discussion 'buddhist' list, I would have thought that the emphasis would be largely on particular distinguishing aspects of the Buddha - his achievement and how he got there. Just being a historical figure is rather mundane. > Anyway, Mike, we were talking about the historical >Buddha. OK, I will leave you to it then. -- Metta Mike Austin From jhubbard at email.smith.edu Fri May 26 08:08:29 2006 From: jhubbard at email.smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Fri May 26 08:10:35 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> Mike Austin wrote: > In message <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org>, Benito Carral > writes > >> >> In short, I don't think that the Buddha was a great >> innovator at all, but a very charismatic, pragmatic, >> and ethical guy of the forest scene. >> > One knows the Buddha by knowing the dharma. Stories from history play > a very minor role in this. The difference is like that between a > Buddhist and a Buddhologist. Whereas it could be debatable whether the > Buddha was a Buddhist, I would say he was certainly not a Buddhologist. > I think that most contemporary Buddhologists would say that Buddhists, from the very beginning, have always known the Buddha by, well, knowing the Buddha. The importance of his physical presence in helping his followers to their own awakening has been well established. After his passing, the "absence" of the charismatic guy of the of the forest scene was made "present" in several ways-- including the continued presence of other charismatic guys of the forest, but also through relics, stupas, images, and the like-- a healthy tradition of encountering the Buddha that continues throughout the Buddhist world to this day. Some would even go further and say that it was the Buddhologists (that is, academic monks of the vihara as opposed to the charismatic and ethical guys of the forest) who made the Dharma the stand-in (the presence) for the absent Buddha.. Works by John Strong, Don Swearer, David Eckel, and especially Reggie Ray all demonstrate this. New work by Andy Rotman on the workings of prasada make this very clear too. Of course, if you spend much time with Buddhists you too will know just how many other ways than through the Dharma one can know the Buddha. And the stories, of course, are all part of this too. . . any Buddhist teacher worth her salt ought to be able to inspire an encounter with the Buddha through a good story about Sakyamuni, no? I certainly have experienced this often enough. . . Jamie Hubbard From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 26 08:37:01 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri May 26 08:36:53 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Two films of interest Message-ID: <000301c680d1$da018250$2930cece@charlie> Has anyone seen one or both of these two films? Comment? Joanna --------- Amongst White Clouds. The world premiere was co-presented in 2005 by the International Buddhist Film Festival at the 28th Mill Valley Film Festival. Inspired in part by the noted book by Bill Porter (Red Pine), Road To Heaven: Encounters With Chinese Hermits, and filmed on location in China by American Director Edward A. Burger, the film takes an unforgettable journey into the hidden tradition of China's Buddhist hermit monks. Amongst White Clouds is an intimate insider's look at students and masters living in scattered retreats dotting China's Zhongnan Mountain range. These peaks have reputedly been home to recluses since the time of the Yellow Emperor, some five thousand years ago. It was widely thought that the tradition was all but wiped out, but the film emphatically and beautifully shows us otherwise. One of only a few foreigners to have lived and studied with these elusive practitioners, Burger is able, with humor and compassion, to present their tradition, their wisdom, and the hardship and joy of their everyday lives among the clouds. ----------- Un Buda (A Buddha) Diego Rafecas, Director Argentina, 2005, 110 minutes (Spanish, with English subtitles) Rafecas is a Zen teacher in Argentina; Un Buda is his first feature. With a backdrop of the government abuses in Argentina during its "Dirty War" of the late 70s and early 80s, the film follows two brothers orphaned as children when their parents were taken by the military. Tomas is now a drifting and withdrawn young man who experiments with ascetic practices and has compassion for others. His older brother Rafael, played by Rafecas, is a university philosophy professor, detached and alone. Their struggles with each other and the world around them in Buenos Aires take a turn when they find themselves at a Zen retreat center in rural Argentina. From bcarral at kungzhi.org Fri May 26 08:57:34 2006 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Fri May 26 08:58:00 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <1416100841.20060526165734@kungzhi.org> On Friday, May 26, 2006, Jamie Hubbard wrote: > [...] any Buddhist teacher worth her salt ought to be > able to inspire an encounter with the Buddha through > a good story about Sakyamuni, no? I can't agree more with the points you rise. I think that it's important to know the role of narrative in the traditions. I have experienced that good histories use to inspire quite more than nice thoughts. That's why I ask my students to read Chan master's biographies. For example, when they read Xuyun's autobiography, they get a feeling of what is real Chan, and they can feel inspired to follow the master's steps. Could you share with us some of the book titles you had in mind? BTW, does someone know some good new books on Chan or the Chinese tradition? I think that it's good to share this kind of info. I don't read much about Buddhism nowadys. The last Buddhist thing I have read is _Hoofprint of the Ox,_ by master Sheng-yen, what seems to me a nice introduction to Chinese Zen. I have also ordered a copy of _Swampland Flowers: The Letters and Lectures of Zen Master Ta Hui,_ the classic J.C. Cleary's translation now available again. Best wishes, Beni From curt at cola.iges.org Fri May 26 09:21:11 2006 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri May 26 09:21:25 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <1416100841.20060526165734@kungzhi.org> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> <1416100841.20060526165734@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <44771CE7.8010406@cola.iges.org> A good enlightenment story should be enlightening. Definitely. The little book "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" has numerous little stories in it about great masters, including a Chinese girl who attained enlightenment and became a great teacher while leading an "ordinary" life of a lay person, as well as another story about an entire family of people (mother, father, son and daughter) who were all enlightened (I think that one might be based on the famous "Layman P'ang"). These stories often sound like harmless fairy tales on a superficial level - but they reveal a great deal of depth on closer inspection. I didn't know "Swampland Flowers" was back in print! I have an old Xerox copy made from a library book. I have recently been reading "Zen Letters" - which is from Yuan Wu's letters (he was, of course, Ta Hui's teacher) - another "Cleary Brothers" production. The brief introduction to this slim volume is quite interesting in its own right - has anyone else read it? It is quite a sweeping denunciation of western culture and Christianity in particular - but couched almost diplomatically enough that one could miss it. - Curt Benito Carral wrote: > On Friday, May 26, 2006, Jamie Hubbard wrote: > > >> [...] any Buddhist teacher worth her salt ought to be >> able to inspire an encounter with the Buddha through >> a good story about Sakyamuni, no? >> > > I can't agree more with the points you rise. > > I think that it's important to know the role of > narrative in the traditions. I have experienced that > good histories use to inspire quite more than nice > thoughts. That's why I ask my students to read Chan > master's biographies. For example, when they read > Xuyun's autobiography, they get a feeling of what is > real Chan, and they can feel inspired to follow the > master's steps. > > Could you share with us some of the book titles you > had in mind? BTW, does someone know some good new books > on Chan or the Chinese tradition? I think that it's > good to share this kind of info. > > I don't read much about Buddhism nowadys. The last > Buddhist thing I have read is _Hoofprint of the Ox,_ by > master Sheng-yen, what seems to me a nice introduction > to Chinese Zen. I have also ordered a copy of > _Swampland Flowers: The Letters and Lectures of Zen > Master Ta Hui,_ the classic J.C. Cleary's translation > now available again. > > Best wishes, > > Beni > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri May 26 11:23:46 2006 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri May 26 11:24:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <2fj24pJimzdEFw0I@clara.net> In message <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu>, Jamie Hubbard writes >> One knows the Buddha by knowing the dharma. Stories from history >>play a very minor role in this. The difference is like that between >>a Buddhist and a Buddhologist. Whereas it could be debatable whether >>the Buddha was a Buddhist, I would say he was certainly not a Buddhologist. >> >I think that most contemporary Buddhologists would say that Buddhists, >from the very beginning, have always known the Buddha by, well, knowing >the Buddha. The importance of his physical presence in helping his >followers to their own awakening has been well established. You make some good points, Jamie. Being in the actual presence of a kind and wise person can certainly be inspiring. And it is true that stories may help to convey those qualities. The Cappala Sutta is one that comes to mind for me. I am going to Brussels next week to see His Holiness the Dalai Lama. And again to France a few weeks later. I find his qualities very inspiring. Whether he is 'awakened' or 'enlightened' or not, I can never know until I achieve that state myself. Therefore, I listen, learn and practice. Now my point in this thread is that the history is not significant - for me, anyway. For example, I am no nearer knowing who the Dalai Lama is by stories of finding his reincarnation, or of his history. And the same is true of the historical Buddha. What really interests me is understanding dukkha and its causes, and cessation and its causes. Stories do nothing to remove ignorance and delusion, however nice and uplifting they may be to hear. >any Buddhist teacher worth her salt ought to be able to inspire an >encounter with the Buddha through a good story about Sakyamuni, no? I >certainly have experienced this often enough. . . Could you describe this 'encounter with the Buddha'? Does it differ from an 'encounter' with any other historical figure when you think of them? Are you proposing some sort of darshan through using a mental image? What I suspect is happening here (and how I explain my experiences that are likewise) is a combination of two of the three faiths, i.e. admiring faith, aspiring faith, and convincing faith. I can see someone I admire, and it makes me feel empowered - even as if I have already accomplished something. This should lead to the last and strongest convincing faith - that which comes from the experience of practice. -- Metta Mike Austin From jhubbard at email.smith.edu Fri May 26 12:31:17 2006 From: jhubbard at email.smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Fri May 26 12:31:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <1416100841.20060526165734@kungzhi.org> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> <1416100841.20060526165734@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <44774975.2000200@email.smith.edu> Benito Carral wrote: > Could you share with us some of the book titles you >had in mind? BTW, does someone know some good new books >on Chan or the Chinese tradition? I think that it's >good to share this kind of info. > > The importance of the physical is all over academia these days (we've gone all post-modern and left our rationalist logocentrism to the Protestant Buddhists, I guess), so there are many, many works on these themes, but some of the titles that come to mind include: Andy Rotmam, Divine Stories: A Translation of the Divyaavadaana, vol. 1. Cambridge: Wisdom Publications Andy Rotman, "The Erotics of Practice: Objects and Agency in Buddhist Avadaana Literature." Journal of the American Academy of Religion 71.3 (2003): 555?578. Andy Rotman, The Power of Proximity: Creating and Venerating Shrines in Indian Buddhist Narratives David Eckel, To See the Buddha (HarperSanFrancisco), 51-72 Donald Swearer, ?Consecrating the Buddha,? from Buddhism in Practice (Princeton University Press), 50-57 (and most of the other articles from the first part of this book). Donald Swearer, Becoming the Buddha : the ritual of image consecration in Thailand (Princeton University Press) John Strong, The Buddha: A Short Biography John Strong, Relics of the Buddha (Princeton University Press) Daniel Boucher, ?Sutra on the Merit of Bathing the Buddha? from Buddhism in Practice (Princeton University Press), 60-68. Anne Klein, ?Meeting The Great Bliss Queen? (Princeton University Press). Donald Lopez, ?A Prayer for the Long Life of the Dalai Lama? rom Buddhism in Practice (Princeton University Press), 170-175. Richard Gombrich, ?The Consecration of a Buddhist Image? Journal of Asian Studies, 26/1, 23-36. Reginald Ray, Buddhist Saints in India Bob Sharf and Bernard Faure also have a fair amount of stuff out there on this topic. . . maybe bodies, narrative, and mummies don't work for everybody in terms of encountering the Buddha and thereby reducing suffering, but it seems pretty clear to me (through both study and experience) that this sort of physical presence does indeed serve. Jamie Hubbard From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sun May 28 09:31:17 2006 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sun May 28 09:31:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <20060524145656.73245.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi I read from a book: The Kathavatthu records how the Vaitulyakas had made a provision that "on account of a particular intention, the saint could resort to sexual-intercourse" Kathavatthu, XXIII.219.1, p.535 - ekaabhippaayena methuno dhammo patisevitabbo Can anyone verify this?Who are the Vaitulyakas? Thanks, Rahula --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060528/3e717bd9/attachment.htm From bcarral at kungzhi.org Sun May 28 09:40:35 2006 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Sun May 28 09:40:38 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Was Buddha a Buddhist In-Reply-To: <44774975.2000200@email.smith.edu> References: <000201c67e0c$f7b74bd0$0200020a@BORABORA> <76932664.20060525223523@kungzhi.org> <44770BDD.9010303@email.smith.edu> <1416100841.20060526165734@kungzhi.org> <44774975.2000200@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <982568504.20060528174035@kungzhi.org> On Friday, May 26, 2006, Jamie Hubbard wrote: > The importance of the physical is all over academia > these days [...] some of the titles that come to mind > include [...] Thank you very much for the references. BTW, Faure is one of my favourite scholars, we share the postmodern thing, and I always enjoy reading him. Best wishes, Beni From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 28 13:48:25 2006 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun May 28 13:48:21 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4479FE89.5010805@xs4all.nl> Ngawang Dorje schreef: > Hi > > > I read from a book: > > The Kathavatthu records how the Vaitulyakas had made a provision that > "on account of a particular intention, the saint could resort to > sexual-intercourse" > > Kathavatthu, XXIII.219.1, p.535 - ekaabhippaayena methuno dhammo > patisevitabbo > > Can anyone verify this?Who are the Vaitulyakas? from http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/establishment.htm I read: > After this incident, for about 3 1/2 decades, no king seems to have paid any attention to Cetiyagiri till Vasabha (127-171 AD) effected some improvements there. He appears to have patronised all viharas impartially, and he did a great deal to further the cause of Buddhism by providing for the preachers of dhamma and building new cetiyas and images, and repairing old monasteries. Viharas were built even in Nagadipa (modern Jaffna peninsula) in the north during the reign of this king. He is said to have celebrated 44 Vesak festivals. Between the reigns of Vasabha and Voharika-Tissa (269-291 AD) for about a century, nothing of importance appears to have taken place. During the time of Voharika-Tissa, we hear for the first time of a new school of thought called Vetullavasda, Vaitulyvada or Mahasunnavadi. This school of thought believed that the Buddha, having been born in Tusita heaven, lives there and never comes down to the human world, and that it is only a created phantasmal form (nimmitarupamattakam) and not the Buddha that appears among men. Both this created form. and Ananda who learned from it preached the dhamma; the Buddha himself never preached. Further more, according to this view, the Buddha as such does not take anything (na Bhagava kinci paribhunjati), but pretends to accept offerings in order to be in comformity with the world (lokanucattanattham). Therefore, what is given to him bears no fruit because it is of no help (nirupakaratta). The king who supported the two viharas --Mahavihara and Abhayagiri -- is said to have suppressed Vaitulyavada, keeping heretics in check with the assistance of his minister Kapila, who was evidently well-versed both in the law of the Buddha and in that of the land. Voharika-Tissa had not only to suppress the Vaitulyas, he had also to purify the Sangha as a whole. Buddhism seems to have been in a bad state and the Sangha.was corrupt. The king is said to have paid three hundred thousand and freed many monks who were in debt. Such a thing was unheard of during the early days. Perhaps during a famine about two decades before Voharika -Tissa's reign monks incurred these debts as alms-begging may not have been easy. Voharika -Tissa is said to have established alms-giving at places all over the Island where the Ariyavamsa Sutta was preached which meant that Buddhism was in an unsatisfactory state. Voharika-Tissa also abolished the infliction of physical pain as penalty and held a great Vesak. festival. So the Vaitulyas were a su?yavada group. According to Warder ('Indian Buddhism' p. 414) its a nickname for mahayanists, derived from vaitaalika/vai.daalika = magician, destrucionist. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Sun May 28 13:49:48 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun May 28 13:49:58 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003601c6828f$e1addd40$71339c04@Dan> Rahula, The Kathaavatthu, of course, as usual, does not provide any name or attribution for the positions taken by the various opponents. It is the commentaries (many centuries later) that attempt to assign various positions to various schools, and this is the case with the Vaitulyakas. The KV, in fact, does not present the reasoning or arguments of the opponent in this case at all, moving immediately to their refutation. As to who they were, the English tr. of the Kathaavatthu, _Points of Controversy_, states in an annotation to XVII.6 (another position attributed to them by the commentary) that "the Vetulya[ka]s, who are known as the Mahaasu~n~nataavaadins." There is some debate among scholars whether these Mahaa-"suunyataa-vaadins are to be identified with proto-Madhyamaka, other groups (such as that reflected in the Tattvasiddhi), or something else. The name Vetulyaka pops up from time to time, especially in Abhidharma literature, negatively, when an author wants to dismiss an unacceptable claim by associating the maker of such a claim with these Vetulyakas. Some have suggested that Vaitulya is a synonym for Vaipuulya, which is often used in Indian Abhidharma and early debate literature as a synonym for Mahaayaana. See, e.g., P. Jaini, "On the Theory of Two Vasubandhus," BSOAS, 21, 1/3. 1958, pp. 48-53, in which he offers some evidence for that equivalence. Dan Lusthaus The Kathavatthu records how the Vaitulyakas had made a provision that "on account of a particular intention, the saint could resort to sexual-intercourse" Kathavatthu, XXIII.219.1, p.535 - ekaabhippaayena methuno dhammo patisevitabbo Can anyone verify this?Who are the Vaitulyakas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060528/c784f8a3/attachment.html From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun May 28 14:21:20 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun May 28 14:21:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rahula, One seems to get these slightly inaccurate citations rather frequently. This is from the final chapter of the Kathaavatthu. It and some of the preceding chapters are almost certainly a late addition to the Kathaavatthu - probably directed against nascent Mahaayaana tendencies. The date is unclear, but the additions could easily have been made at some time after the writing down of the Pali texts in the first century B.C. It is difficult to be absolutely sure what is meant by the expression, since the compound ekaadhippaayena could have various meanings. The attribution to the Vetullas (Sanskrit Vaitulya) is from the commentary, dating to the fourth or fifth century A.D. In fact the commentary attributes this view to those "such as the Andhakas and Vetullas" which (in the commentary's time certainly means the Southern Mahaasanghikas and the Mahaayaanists. The commentary offers alternative interpretations of ekaadhippaaya: 1. with a compassionate purpose alone or 2. possessing a united purpose i.e. a resolve to be together in sa.msaara, after performing worship of the Buddha and so on. So it is with one of these two purposes that the Andhakas and Vetullas are said to have held that sexual intercourse should be practised. It is difficult to know what exactly the commentary is referring to - perhaps one practice among Mahaayaanists and another among Southern Mahaasanghikas ? In any case it may well be quite different to that intended by the author of these additions to the Kathaavatthu around the first century A.D. The term Vaitulla (Vaitulyaka, etc.) is standard to refer to Mahaayaana in non-Mahaayaana literature and also some Mahaayaana sources. Lance Cousins >Hi > >I read from a book: > >The Kathavatthu records how the Vaitulyakas had made a provision >that "on account of a particular intention, the saint could resort >to sexual-intercourse" > >Kathavatthu, XXIII.219.1, p.535 - ekaabhippaayena methuno dhammo patisevitabbo > >Can anyone verify this?Who are the Vaitulyakas? > >Thanks, >Rahula > From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 28 14:32:04 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun May 28 14:32:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <003601c6828f$e1addd40$71339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <01ab01c68295$c87a6400$2930cece@charlie> This entry adds that there was actually a vetulla pitaka, considered as heretical: The Vetulla Pitaka, the canon of the Vetullavadins, is condemned as abuddhavacana. E.g., SA.ii.150; cf. Sp.iv.742, where it is called Vedalha Pitaka. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/vy/vetullavaada.htm Joanna =========================================== ..... The name Vetulyaka pops up from time to time, especially in Abhidharma literature, negatively, when an author wants to dismiss an unacceptable claim by associating the maker of such a claim with these Vetulyakas. Some have suggested that Vaitulya is a synonym for Vaipuulya, which is often used in Indian Abhidharma and early debate literature as a synonym for Mahaayaana. See, e.g., P. Jaini, "On the Theory of Two Vasubandhus," BSOAS, 21, 1/3. 1958, pp. 48-53, in which he offers some evidence for that equivalence. Dan Lusthaus From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Mon May 29 03:03:12 2006 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon May 29 03:03:20 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com><003601c6828f$e1addd40$71339c04@Dan> <01ab01c68295$c87a6400$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <00dc01c682fe$b75590a0$44369c04@Dan> Joanna, > This entry adds that there was actually a vetulla pitaka, considered as > heretical: > The Vetulla Pitaka, the canon of the Vetullavadins, is condemned as > abuddhavacana. > E.g., SA.ii.150; cf. Sp.iv.742, where it is called Vedalha Pitaka. Since the references are to commentaries, they are probably alluding to Mahayana sutras, which Theravadins would naturally consider beyond the pale and non-canonical and not the authentic word of the Buddha (abuddhavacana). Dan Lusthaus From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon May 29 04:42:03 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon May 29 05:34:01 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <4479FE89.5010805@xs4all.nl> References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4479FE89.5010805@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Erik Hoogcarspel cites: >Between the reigns of Vasabha and Voharika-Tissa (269-291 AD) for >about a century, nothing of importance appears to have taken place. >During the time of Voharika-Tissa, we hear for the first time of a >new school of thought called Vetullavasda, Vaitulyvada or >Mahasunnavadi. The term Mahasu??avaadin is a beautiful example of unnecessary confusion generated by scholars. It is found in only one source, if that. The source is the discussion in the Kathaavatthu commentary (Kv-a 168) concerning the view of some that the 'Sangha cannot receive gifts', since properly speaking the Sangho refers to the Path and Fruit i.e. the stages of enlightenment and stages of enlightenment do not accept gifts. The commentary (in the fourth or fifth century A.D.) states that this view is held _nowadays_ by the Vetullakas known as Mahaapu??avaadins (some Mss have Mahaasu??avaadins). In other words the commentator is referring to his own time. So the commentator asserts that the view that in the highest sense the Sangha cannot receive gifts was held in the fourth century A.D. or so by Mahaayaanists of the sort he designates as Mahaasu??avaadins (accepting the variant reading). This clearly refers to Maadhyamikas of some kind. And indeed one can think of Perfection of Wisdom texts which could easily be interpreted as saying this by a Theravaadin. Evidently, the commentator did not think this was the view of all Mahaayaanists; hence the specification. Clearly then the term Mahaasu??avaadin has nothing to do with the reign of Vohaarikatissa. >So the Vaitulyas were a su?yavada group. Rather the converse. >According to Warder ('Indian Buddhism' p. 414) its a nickname for >mahayanists, derived from vaitaalika/vai.daalika = magician, >destrucionist. > Unlikely. It seems rather to be related to the name of a text or collection of texts - in Pali the Veda.lhapi.taka or Vetullapi.taka, supposedly brought from the Naaga realm. Note that a pi.taka is not necessarily a collection of texts; cf. the Cariyaapi.taka or the Bodhisattvapi.taka. It may also have something to do with the Anga known variously as Vedalla, Vaipulya and Vaitulya. Lance Cousins From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Mon May 29 08:20:50 2006 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Mon May 29 08:20:56 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060529142050.31218.qmail@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Thank you so much. However, I am Pali illiterate. Is that a complete sentence? What's the context? Can anyone translate it? I believe, that the book that I am reading, the author was trying attribute the origin of Tantric practices to the Vaitulyakas Best wishes, Rahula --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060529/d5b402cc/attachment.htm From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Mon May 29 08:32:03 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Mon May 29 08:32:07 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche in Toronto In-Reply-To: <200605291421.k4TELhKC017776@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20060529143203.32394.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nyernga Ngakde is very excited to announce the visit of Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche. He will be coming to teach in Toronto on July the First. Here is the published flier, please feel free to send this information to friends family, or any one who may be interested. Legendary Tibetan Yogi The great Tibetan yogi and scholar Kyabje Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche is a world renowned master of Tibetan Buddhism. He has been trained through the time of 13th Dalai Lama and is presently a senior adviser to the 14th Dalai Lama. He is the second oldest lama alive today and has taught Tibetan Buddhism around the world for the last sixty years. Many lamas active today in the Tibetan community and in the west have been trained by him, including many prominent western scholars and practitioners. As one of the most prolific scholars alive today, Rinpoche has composed over twenty volumes of texts. Tantric Practice in Nying-ma, a commentary on the instructions of the foundation practice for the Great Perfection, was published in several languages and has become the essential guide for thousands of people in the west. Rinpoche's newly released book, Fundamental Mind: The Nyingma View of the Great Completeness, is likely to be an instant classic. Invited by Nyernga Ngakde Buddhist Center and his closest disciple, Lopon Ugyen Rinpoche, the following events will provide a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for anyone interested in learning and experiencing more about spirituality and Buddhism, and to receive profound blessings from one of the most senior Buddhist masters of our time. July 1st - 8th — Phowa: Transference of Consciousness Po Chai Temple, 84 Swanwick Ave, Toronto, ON M4E 1Z7 (please call for time schedule) 40 hours minimum time required for attendees. Phowa, also known as "liberation without meditation" was intended for ordinary people who have not been able to practice systematically in their lives. In this series Rinpoche will teach various visualization and meditation techniques that will teach us to prepare our bodies and minds for emergence with ultimate reality at the time of death. Translated into Chinese and English $350 Pre-registration required July 17st - 22th — U of T Teachings 7:00p.m. - 8:30p.m. at University of Toronto Campus O.I.S.E. Building 252 Bloor Street W. Room G162 (St. George Subway) 17th- Precious Human Existence 18th- Dreams and Illusion 19th - Compassion and Equanimity 20th - Cultivating Wisdom and Enlightenment 21th- 22nd - Dzogchen (as elucidated in Fundamental Mind) Lecture topics are based on the books, Tantric Practice in Nyingma (Snowlion Pub 1983), and Fundamental Mind (Snowlion Pub 2006). It is recommended that attendies review these books. $40 per night or $240 for all six nights Please pay with cash only, checks will not be accepted. July 11th — Long life Empowerment 6:00pm. - 10:00pm. at Po Chai Temple, 84 Swanwick Ave, Toronto, ON M4E 1Z7 This empowerment is a precious opportunity to receive blessings for a long and healthy life, and to clear life obstacles. Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche attained the long life siddhis at the Maratika Cave in Nepal, where Guru Rinpoche attained the life control vidhyadhara. Translated into Chinese and English $70 Pre-registration required For more information visit our website, www.ngakde.com. You can contact Nyernga Ngakde staff via e-mail at info@ngakde.com or by telephone: 647.340.1191. 173 Gamble Ave, Toronto ON Thank you very much. -- www.ngakde.com 647-340-1191 173 Gamble Ave, Toronto ON, M4J 2P2 --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060529/d307ded4/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 29 09:25:31 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 29 09:25:33 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fw: Articles on Buddhadasa Bhikku's birth anniversary Message-ID: <002c01c68334$1fa34690$2930cece@charlie> Articles from _The Nation_, Bangkok, on how Buddhadasa's ideas have fared since his death (1906-1993). I found links for the first 2 parts of these articles on Buddhadasa Bhikku's centenary of birth in Thailand, but could not find a link for the third part, so reproduce it here. Joanna ================================================= Pt.1 http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/page.news.php?clid=2&id=30004771 A century of spirituality Published on May 24, 2006 Even 13 years after his death, Buddhadasa Bhikku's teachings continue to rattle the underpinnings of religion in Thai society. [read on] Pt.2 http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/page.news.php?clid=18&id=30004949 It's not about the next life May 26, 06 [read on] [this article repeats a typo misspelling of Tripitaka, as tripikata) Pt. 3 Can Thai Buddhism be saved from superstition? Published on May 27, 2006 Followers feel Buddhadasa's teachings are crucially relevant to the present age. Mayura Wilainum-chokchai remembers having little interest in the extensive TV news coverage of the funeral of the Venerable Buddhadasa Bhikku 13years ago. She had never heard of the monk before and simply assumed Buddhadasa was one of many famous Luang pu, senior monks with sacred powers. Now 26, Mayura sees things very differently. She recently left her job as a graphic designer with a Japanese company in order to pursue graduate studies in the United States. Upon her return to Thailand, she plans to enter the teaching profession, starting a new life spreading Buddhadasa's dharma to the younger generation. "I want to bring Buddhism to the attention of young people," she says. "I was almost too old when I learnt that Buddhist teachings can benefit someone like myself who never believed in superstitious stories or particularly liked going to temples full of ornate buildings and monks watching big-screen TVs with [Sony] Playstations". Last night Mayura and some of her like-minded friends made the trip by train to Suan Mokkh or the "Garden of Liberation" founded by Buddhadasa 74 years ago, to join today's commemoration of the centenary of Thailand's most famous Buddhist scholar and reformer of Theravada Buddhism. Mayura exemplifies a growing trend among young people, a trend which many Buddhist scholars hope will be able to save Thai Buddhism from a potentially shaky future. "More than 80 per cent of people report that they are Buddhists, but I doubt that many of them really know about the essence of the Buddha's teaching," challenges Bancha Chalermchaikit, the owner of Sukapap Jai publishing house, which has printed Buddhadasa's books for more than two decades."Some 2,000 copies of Buddhadasa's books might stay on the shelves for four or five years while those about monks and nuns with supernatural powers can sell 100,000 copies in a few months." Even worse, adds Phra Dussadee Methangul, a famous disciple of Buddhadasa, is that most of the nation's 300,000 Buddhist monks are not doing their job of helping people rid their minds of the ignorance that the Buddha taught is the root cause of delusion and suffering. "The monks themselves may even be encouraging this delusion," explains Phra Dussadee. "They hand out lottery numbers and amulets and sprinkle holy water because they know that these are easy ways to draw people to their temples, and more visitors means more donations." As Buddhadasa emphasised, such activities are far from what was at the essence of the Buddha's teachings, and as a result, critics charge, they are contributing to the religion's decline at a time when it may be needed more than ever. An advocate of Buddhism, Dr Tienchai Wongchaisuwan observes that temples taking advantage of people's fears and hopes for a better life are acting little differently from corporations. "Multinational corporations exploit our ignorance surrounding how the craving for material possessions works and are systematically packaging it as 'modern culture'," he argues. Other scholars agree. As consumerism becomes more sophisticated, it sells not only products but lifestyles and culture too. Ritualistic Buddhism benefits from that same approach: "It's about getting people to feel better about themselves", notes Dr Suwanna Satha-anand, a lecturer in philosophy at Chulalongkorn University. "Commercial Buddhism is also selling something more abstract, such as meditation training that can make people feel momentary happiness," she notes. "We have to admit that Buddhism [such as Buddhadasa taught] is a very difficult and demanding religion. It is a religion based on wisdom, not faith. To gain this wisdom, you have to not only intellectually understand the teaching but also practice it. It demands you rely on yourself, not gods." But Phra Paisal Visalo, a well-known disciple of Buddhadasa, is not discouraged. He says the fact that an increasing number of people in the West are becoming interested in Buddhism and its logical explanation of life and suffering is an illustration of people failing to find the answer to life through material success. He sees Thailand as no different and cites young people like Mayura as an example of the beginning of a similar trend. "This growth in material consumption does have a positive side. It allows religion an opportunity to present alternatives once people emerge from the myth that materialism leads to happiness," he says. "Moreover, advances like information technology can also help us monks to understand the outside world better and be more responsive to people's needs." Phra Dussadee concurs, adding that maybe it is time for Buddhadasa's followers to become more aggressive in their networking to spread his teaching to wider groups in society. As Buddhadasa hoped, more laypersons are now beginning to teach dharma to fellow laypersons through books and lectures, as Mayura herself plans to do. "Monks certainly face a tough challenge if they are still to be relevant in the future of Buddhism," advises Phra Dussadee. "We may lose relevance if they don't adjust to become more committed to learning and practising deeper dharma to fit our role as religious practitioners." Ultimately, none of this may really matter if we follow the basic Buddhist teaching of impermanence, says Dr Suwanna. "Buddhadasa's teaching could eventually fade away, but as the monk himself stressed, Buddhism is a fundamental law of nature and will always be there for people to discover." Nantiya Tangwisutijit The Nation [Bangkok] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.3/350 - Release Date: 5/28/2006 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060529/7b613f7a/attachment.htm From benjaminytse at yahoo.com Mon May 29 07:47:34 2006 From: benjaminytse at yahoo.com (Benjamin Tse) Date: Mon May 29 09:30:28 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Himitsu Nembutsu tradition Message-ID: <20060529134734.15095.qmail@web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello all, I was just reading the article by James Sanford, "Breath of Life: The Esoteric Nembutsu." I was wondering, does this school of Buddhism still exist? I was hoping to study this tradition on a personal level. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks. Ben --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060529/9b34af40/attachment.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon May 29 11:20:21 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon May 29 11:26:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <20060529142050.31218.qmail@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060529142050.31218.qmail@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rahula writes: >However, I am Pali illiterate. Is that a complete sentence? What's >the context? Can anyone translate it? Yes, the sentence is complete. There is almost no context. It is just a proposition. The refutation is almost sarcastic. The counter-questions which follow in the Kathaavatthu are: should it be by one with single intent who is no longer a mendicant ? should it be by one with single intent who is no longer a monk? should it be by one with single intent who has cut the roots ? should it be by one with single intent who is excluded from the Sangha (paaraajika)? This makes it fairly clear that the intention is to refer to monastics. Then there is a further series - even more sarcastic: Should a living being be slain by one with with single intent ? Then follows a series of further wrong actions, clearly intended as a reductio ad absurdum. I did more or less translate it before, but here is a more literal rendering of the whole sentence: ekaadhippaayena by one with (a) single intent/purpose methuno dhammo coupling pa.tisevitabbo to be practised i.e. "Is coupling to be practised by one whose intent is single/united/of one kind ?" To which the opponent's reply is: "Yes". Other renderings are perhaps also possible for ekaadhippaayena. >I believe, that the book that I am reading, the author was trying >attribute the origin of Tantric practices to the Vaitulyakas It is possible that this refers to some kind of "Tantric" practice around the first century A.D., but the attribution to Andhakas and Vetullas several centuries later is not really evidence, as it may simply mean that the author thought that this was the kind of thing that Mahaayaanists and Mahaasanghikas get up to. In general the Kathaavatthu tends to give the last word to the criticized view. It is noteworthy that in the final chapter where this question occurs that does not happen at all. Given that it does seem to be a particularly late addition, we cannot use it as early evidence for Tantra in Buddhism. If it really is the earliest evidence, we should rather think of a later date for this addition - even the third century A.D. Lance Cousins From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Mon May 29 17:21:35 2006 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Mon May 29 17:21:40 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche in Toronto In-Reply-To: <200605291530.k4TFUclj018960@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20060529232135.87489.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.ngakde.com/khetsunpa.html We made this announcement in advance of polishing that "mysterious mirror", the webpage. Mike Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche in Toronto To: buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Nyernga Ngakde is very excited to announce the visit of Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche. He will be coming to teach in Toronto on July the First. Here is the published flier, please feel free to send this information to friends family, or any one who may be interested. Legendary Tibetan Yogi The great Tibetan yogi and scholar Kyabje Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche is a world renowned master of Tibetan Buddhism. He has been trained through the time of 13th Dalai Lama and is presently a senior adviser to the 14th Dalai Lama. He is the second oldest lama alive today and has taught Tibetan Buddhism around the world for the last sixty years. Many lamas active today in the Tibetan community and in the west have been trained by him, including many prominent western scholars and practitioners. As one of the most prolific scholars alive today, Rinpoche has composed over twenty volumes of texts. Tantric Practice in Nying-ma, a commentary on the instructions of the foundation practice for the Great Perfection, was published in several languages and has become the essential guide for thousands of people in the west. Rinpoche's newly released book, Fundamental Mind: The Nyingma View of the Great Completeness, is likely to be an instant classic. Invited by Nyernga Ngakde Buddhist Center and his closest disciple, Lopon Ugyen Rinpoche, the following events will provide a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for anyone interested in learning and experiencing more about spirituality and Buddhism, and to receive profound blessings from one of the most senior Buddhist masters of our time. July 1st - 8th ? Phowa: Transference of Consciousness Po Chai Temple, 84 Swanwick Ave, Toronto, ON M4E 1Z7 (please call for time schedule) 40 hours minimum time required for attendees. Phowa, also known as "liberation without meditation" was intended for ordinary people who have not been able to practice systematically in their lives. In this series Rinpoche will teach various visualization and meditation techniques that will teach us to prepare our bodies and minds for emergence with ultimate reality at the time of death. Translated into Chinese and English $350 Pre-registration required July 17st - 22th ? U of T Teachings 7:00p.m. - 8:30p.m. at University of Toronto Campus O.I.S.E. Building 252 Bloor Street W. Room G162 (St. George Subway) 17th- Precious Human Existence 18th- Dreams and Illusion 19th - Compassion and Equanimity 20th - Cultivating Wisdom and Enlightenment 21th- 22nd - Dzogchen (as elucidated in Fundamental Mind) Lecture topics are based on the books, Tantric Practice in Nyingma (Snowlion Pub 1983), and Fundamental Mind (Snowlion Pub 2006). It is recommended that attendies review these books. $40 per night or $240 for all six nights Please pay with cash only, checks will not be accepted. July 11th ? Long life Empowerment 6:00pm. - 10:00pm. at Po Chai Temple, 84 Swanwick Ave, Toronto, ON M4E 1Z7 This empowerment is a precious opportunity to receive blessings for a long and healthy life, and to clear life obstacles. Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche attained the long life siddhis at the Maratika Cave in Nepal, where Guru Rinpoche attained the life control vidhyadhara. Translated into Chinese and English $70 Pre-registration required For more information visit our website, www.ngakde.com. You can contact Nyernga Ngakde staff via e-mail at info@ngakde.com or by telephone: 647.340.1191. 173 Gamble Ave, Toronto ON Thank you very much. -- http://www.ngakde.com 647-340-1191 173 Gamble Ave, Toronto ON, M4J 2P2 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20060529/9cdb0b11/attachment.html From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 29 18:38:04 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 29 18:38:05 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4479FE89.5010805@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001b01c68381$50608340$2930cece@charlie> ...Unlikely. It seems rather to be related to the name of a text or collection of texts - in Pali the Veda.lhapi.taka or Vetullapi.taka, supposedly brought from the Naaga realm. Note that a pi.taka is not necessarily a collection of texts; cf. the Cariyaapi.taka or the Bodhisattvapi.taka. It may also have something to do with the Anga known variously as Vedalla, Vaipulya and Vaitulya. Lance Cousins =================================================== If a pittaka is not always a collection of texts, then what is it a collection of? sutras? Why would any text refer to a Vetalhapitaka if it's not a collecyion? This is a bit confusing.........perhaps you could elucidate further? Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 29 20:40:22 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon May 29 20:40:22 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas Message-ID: <001f01c68392$667bc890$2930cece@charlie> Aren't the titles of this alleged sect derived from these terms for demons, ghosts, etc, or magic arts? Seems this outfit were accused of being up to no good, regardless. Their title and reputation suggests derogatory labeling. Or is this off-base? I tried finding Veda.lha in the Pali dictionary and in MW, but no go. Joanna MW vetAla m. (of doubtful derivation) a kind of demon , ghost , spirit , goblin , vampire (esp. one occupying a dead body) Hariv. Ka1v. Katha1s. &c. ; N. of one of S3iva's attendants , Ka1lika1P. ; of a teacher BhP. ; of a poet Cat. ; a door-keeper (?) L. ; (%{A}) f. a form of Durga1 Va1s. ; (%{I}) f. N. of Durga1 Hariv. Pali dictionary 2. Vetala: (page 647) Vetala at D i.6 (in the lists of forbidden crafts) refers to some magic art. The proper meaning of the word was already unknown when Bdhgh at DA i.84 explained it as "ghana-- ta?a?" (cymbal beating) with remark 'mantena mata-- sarir' u??hapanan ti eke" (some take it to be raising the dead by magic charms).......... From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon May 29 23:50:16 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon May 29 23:50:30 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <001b01c68381$50608340$2930cece@charlie> References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4479FE89.5010805@ xs4all.nl> <001b01c68381$50608340$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Joanna, >If a pittaka is not always a collection of texts, then what is it a >collection of? sutras? Why would any text refer to a Vetalhapitaka >if it's not a collecyion? >This is a bit confusing.........perhaps you could elucidate further? The word pi.taka is literally a basket and so later tradition tends to think of a receptacle for written texts, but this is doubtful. Apart from anything else, you cannot literally put an orally memorized text in a basket. The notion of the Canon as consisting of three 'baskets' seems not to be older than the writing down of the texts themselves around the first century B.C. The term seems extracted from the expression pi.takasampadaana found in various sutta contexts. There it seems to mean 'tradition' (and is usually criticized as a source of knowledge). Later it comes to mean 'tradition' in a favourable sense i.e. the Buddhist tradition(s). So we get an inscriptional reference to a pe.takin i.e. a holder of the tradition and a text such as the Pe.taka or Pe.takopadesa. At around this time (i.e. a little before or a little after the writing down of the texts) we get texts which include pe.taka as part of their title. So Cariyaapi.taka means "The tradition concerning the practice ". This usage continues for a while. So we get other texts whose name includes pe.taka in the sense of tradition as a second component. After the writing down of the texts and their organization into three parts, we have the Threefold Tradition (tipi.taka). Inevitably, this becomes quickly reinterpreted to mean Three Baskets (tipi.taka) -indeed, retrospectively, this is the obvious meaning. So you now get a term like Bodhisattvapi.taka. This is certainly a specific text giving the Bodhisattva Tradition, but in some contexts it clearly designates instead (correctly or by misunderstanding) a Bodhisattva Basket or Baskets, understood as a collection of Mahaayaana texts. See Ulrich Pagel, _The Bodhisattvapi.taka_, Tring, 1995 for this (esp. pp. 7-35). Lance Cousins From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Tue May 30 00:04:26 2006 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Tue May 30 00:04:31 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] on "pitaka" In-Reply-To: References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4479FE89.5010805@ xs4all.nl> <001b01c68381$50608340$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Just a note (not sure if this has been pointed out)... In the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Pali Sutta-pitaka, we have a text (the 15th one) called the Cariyaapit.aka ("Basket of conducts"). W.F. Wong From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 30 07:39:14 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 30 07:39:14 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas References: <20060528153117.19091.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4479FE89.5010805@xs4all.nl> <001b01c68381$50608340$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <001301c683ee$718ae160$2930cece@charlie> Thanks Lance----now this usage is clear, and I always appreciate getting the chronological perspective. JK ========= > Joanna, > >>If a pittaka is not always a collection of texts, then what is it a >>collection of? sutras? Why would any text refer to a Vetalhapitaka >>if it's not a collecyion? >>This is a bit confusing.........perhaps you could elucidate further? > > The word pi.taka is literally a basket and so later tradition tends > to think of a receptacle for written texts, but this is doubtful. > Apart from anything else, you cannot literally put an orally > memorized text in a basket. The notion of the Canon as consisting of > three 'baskets' seems not to be older than the writing down of the > texts themselves around the first century B.C................ ............. From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue May 30 08:11:53 2006 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue May 30 09:10:41 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas In-Reply-To: <001f01c68392$667bc890$2930cece@charlie> References: <001f01c68392$667bc890$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: Joanna, I don't think so. There is a textual problem in that Vetullapi.taka seems to be later in Pali and used to explain Veda.lhapi.taka or Vedallapi.taka (the Burmese edition seems always to have the latter) in the earlier commentaries. Veda.lha- is rather cryptic and perhaps just an error. Vedalla- and Vetulla- as Sanskrit Vaitulya, Vaipulya and Vaidalya are all used to refer to one of the 9 or 12 Angas (types of scripture). Mahaayaanists seem to have claimed that their texts belonged to this Anga. If from vetaala, you would get in Sanskrit: vaitaalika or vaitaalya and hence in Pali vetaalika or vetalla but never vedalla or vetulla. Lance >Aren't the titles of this alleged sect derived from these terms for >demons, ghosts, etc, or magic arts? Seems this outfit were accused >of being up to no good, regardless. Their title and reputation >suggests derogatory labeling. Or is this off-base? I tried finding >Veda.lha in the Pali dictionary and in MW, but no go. > Joanna > > >MW > vetAla m. (of doubtful derivation) a kind of demon , ghost , >spirit , goblin , vampire (esp. one occupying a dead body) Hariv. >Ka1v. Katha1s. &c. ; N. of one of S3iva's attendants , Ka1lika1P. ; >of a teacher BhP. ; of a poet Cat. ; a door-keeper (?) L. ; (%{A}) >f. a form of Durga1 Va1s. ; (%{I}) f. N. of Durga1 Hariv. > > >Pali dictionary >2. Vetala: (page 647) >Vetala at D i.6 (in the lists of forbidden crafts) refers to some >magic art. The proper meaning of the word was already unknown when >Bdhgh at DA i.84 explained it as "ghana-- ta?a?" (cymbal beating) >with remark 'mantena mata-- sarir' u??hapanan ti eke" (some take it >to be raising the dead by magic charms).......... From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 30 09:23:29 2006 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue May 30 09:23:29 2006 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vaitulyakas References: <001f01c68392$667bc890$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <000b01c683fd$01599350$2930cece@charlie> Ok got it, suspected I was off track here but never sure----thanks, J ==================== > Joanna, > > I don't think so. > > There is a textual problem in that Vetullapi.taka seems to be later > in Pali and used to explain Veda.lhapi.taka or Vedallapi.taka (the > Burmese edition seems always to have the latter) in the earlier > commentaries. Veda.lha- is rather cryptic and perhaps just an error. > Vedalla- and Vetulla- as Sanskrit Vaitulya, Vaipulya and Vaidalya are > all used to refer to one of the 9 or 12 Angas (types of scripture). > Mahaayaanists seem to have claimed that their texts belonged to this > Anga. > > If from vetaala, you would get in Sanskrit: vaitaalika or vaitaalya > and hence in Pali vetaalika or vetalla but never vedalla or vetulla. > > Lance > >>Aren't the titles of this alleged sect derived from these terms for >>demons, ghosts, etc, or magic arts? Seems this outfit were accused >>of being up to no good, regardless. Their title and reputation >>suggests derogatory labeling. Or is this off-base? I tried finding >>Veda.lha in the Pali dictionary and in MW, but no go. >> Joanna >> >> >>MW >> vetAla m. (of doubtful derivation) a kind of demon , ghost , >>spirit , goblin , vampire (esp. one occupying a dead body) Hariv. >>Ka1v. Katha1s. &c. ; N. of one of S3iva's attendants , Ka1lika1P. ; >>of a teacher BhP. ; of a poet Cat. ; a door-keeper (?) L. ; (%{A}) >>f. a form of Durga1 Va1s. ; (%{I}) f. N. of Durga1 Hariv. >> >> >>Pali dictionary >>2. Vetala: (page 647) >>Vetala at D i.6 (in the lists of forbidden crafts) refers to some >>magic art. The proper meaning of the word was already unknown when >>Bdhgh at DA i.84 explained it as "ghana-- ta?a?" (cymbal beating) >>with remark 'mantena mata-- sarir' u??hapanan ti eke" (some take it >>to be raising the dead by magic charms).......... > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 > >