From shian at kmspks.org Wed Apr 1 22:42:11 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:42:11 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for English version of sutra Message-ID: Hi Buddha-lers, Do you know where to find an English version of ?????????????????????????????? ?C if it exists at all? (Also called ?????? for short) The full Chinese text of this short sutra can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amituofo/message/138 with an English version that I need to check for quality. Thanks in advance, shi??an From jayarava at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 01:22:56 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for English version of sutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <634043.26284.qm@web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Shi'an There is a translation here: http://is.gd/qeZZ But when I look closer it is by someone called Shen Shi'an. Same one? Jayarava From shian at kmspks.org Thu Apr 2 02:01:33 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:01:33 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for English version of sutra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jayarava, Thanks! But that would be me (still). The website is my blog. I'm looking for any existing alternative translation to check my version against! :-] Metta, shi'an -----Original Message----- From: Jayarava [mailto:jayarava at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 02 April, 2009 3:23 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Looking for English version of sutra Dear Shi'an There is a translation here: http://is.gd/qeZZ But when I look closer it is by someone called Shen Shi'an. Same one? Jayarava _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3982 (20090402) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. Email message - is OK Email message - is OK http://www.eset.com From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Apr 2 13:54:40 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:54:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake Message-ID: <1238702081.14198.25.camel@localhost> Dear denizens, Just about every day something comes along to remind me that I am living in the wrong country, perhaps even on the wrong planet. Today's evidence comes from a Pew Forum survey, which was actually released in December, but of which I was reminded today. On this survey people were asked "Is it necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values?" 57% of Americans said YES! Tell me it isn't so. In contrast, all the civilized countries reported on the survey had a strong majority saying NO to that question. Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Germany, Japan, China and Israel all had a majority of respondents knowing the right answer to the question. (I keep waiting for Americans to catch up with Italians in religious sophistication, but I'm not holding my breath.) Mind you, there are some countries in which even more people got the wrong answer than in the USA. In India, Nigeria, Turkey, Indonesia and Egypt substantial numbers of people gave the wrong answer. The same, for that matter, could be said of most of the countries in Africa and South America. If an atheist roams outside Canada, Israel and Europe, the majority of people she encounters will think she's incapable of being moral or having good values. I wonder when the Pew Foundation will get around to asking "Is it necessary to believe in karma and rebirth in order to be moral and have good values?" The correct answer to that is the same as the correct answer to "Is it necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values?", but I bet even a few subscribers to buddha-l might flunk this one-question quiz. (I have confidence, however, that the majority of buddha-l subscribers would get this one right.) A short version of the Pew survey can be found at http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=373 at which site there is a link to the complete 144-page report on a wide range of moral, social and political attitudes in various parts of the world. The report was published in 2007. It's probably obsolete by now, given how rapidly people abandon their false beliefs in the light of evidence and sound arguments. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 2 17:38:26 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:38:26 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <1238702081.14198.25.camel@localhost> References: <1238702081.14198.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <9E62A8E7C3A94C42B1B546ECC67F5CC0@OPTIPLEX> R.H.: "The same, for that matter, could be said of most of the countries in Africa and South America. If an atheist roams outside Canada, Israel and Europe, the majority of people she encounters will think she's incapable of being moral or having good values." That's why when she goes to these places men keep hitting on her no matter what she does, including dressing like a man. JK ====================== From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 2 17:39:47 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:39:47 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <1238702081.14198.25.camel@localhost> References: <1238702081.14198.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: "(I have confidence, however, that the majority of buddha-l subscribers would get this one right.)" With you there! JK ======= I wonder when the Pew Foundation will get around to asking "Is it necessary to believe in karma and rebirth in order to be moral and have good values?" The correct answer to that is the same as the correct answer to "Is it necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values?", but I bet even a few subscribers to buddha-l might flunk this one-question quiz. (I have confidence, however, that the majority of buddha-l subscribers would get this one right.) -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From at8u at virginia.edu Fri Apr 3 12:30:14 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:30:14 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D655B6.3050908@virginia.edu> Richard Hayes wrote: > Just about every day something comes along to remind me that I am living > in the wrong country, perhaps even on the wrong planet. If you want momentary relief, you could watch _Religulous_ by Bill Maher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religulous I watched it last night. I had never heard of him before earlier this week and I was curious. I wonder if he has bodyguards (when Richard Dawkins came to UVA to introduce The God Delusion, he was provided with body guards and understandably so). The relief will be only momentary because after you have finished watching it you'll probably want to move to another planet even more than before. Best, Alberto Todeschini From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 3 13:38:30 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:38:30 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <49D655B6.3050908@virginia.edu> References: <49D655B6.3050908@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <49D665B6.3060507@xs4all.nl> Richard Hayes schreef: > Dear denizens, > > Just about every day something comes along to remind me that I am living > in the wrong country, perhaps even on the wrong planet. Today's evidence > comes from a Pew Forum survey, which was actually released in December, > but of which I was reminded today. On this survey people were asked "Is > it necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good > values?" > 57% of Americans said YES! Tell me it isn't so. In contrast, all the > civilized countries reported on the survey had a strong majority saying > NO to that question. Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Spain, Italy, > Germany, Japan, China and Israel all had a majority of respondents > knowing the right answer to the question. (I keep waiting for Americans > to catch up with Italians in religious sophistication, but I'm not > holding my breath.) > > Mind you, there are some countries in which even more people got the > wrong answer than in the USA. In India, Nigeria, Turkey, Indonesia and > Egypt substantial numbers of people gave the wrong answer. The same, for > that matter, could be said of most of the countries in Africa and South > America. If an atheist roams outside Canada, Israel and Europe, the > majority of people she encounters will think she's incapable of being > moral or having good values. > In the Netherlands, the country where I live and that you'll be visiting shortly, the situation is not much better than in the USA. I guess the line of thought is quite obvious: heathens go to hell and Christians go to heaven. Hell is for bad people so heathens must be bad. I used to quote Albert Camus in order to convince people of of the absurdity of this kind of reasoning, but some political leaders of the recent past in general and of the USA in particular provided more falsification than one could dream of. erik Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 3 15:16:05 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:16:05 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Famous dissident Buddhist leader in Vietnam joins opposition to a planned bauxite mine. Message-ID: <409DABE44F454D8C9C5C8C881F342A73@OPTIPLEX> http://www.rfa.org/english/news/vietnam/bauxitemining-04022009155 316.html Ven. Thich Quang Do, under house arrest in HGMC, Vietnam, calls for demos against bauxite mining Excerpt: The planned project "will destroy the forests of the Central Highlands, pollute the basalt-rich red soils, increase the risk of prolonged periods of drought or flooding, and seriously contaminate water supplies, thus directly threatening the economic development of the southern regions of Central Vietnam," he said in a statement. "This project is not the fruit of studies by economists or environmental experts, but an illustration of Vietnam's dependence on China," he said, calling for a month of "peaceful demonstrations at home" in May. Joanna K. From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 3 15:30:51 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:30:51 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <49D655B6.3050908@virginia.edu> References: <49D655B6.3050908@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <672D5D64A1D84FBF9AD1873812A0B6E1@OPTIPLEX> A clearly flawed production, since he did not interview any Buddhists, and as many of us (or them) know, it's also a religion..... right? Joanna K. ======================= If you want momentary relief, you could watch _Religulous_ by Bill Maher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religulous I watched it last night. I had never heard of him before earlier this week and I was curious. I wonder if he has bodyguards (when Richard Dawkins came to UVA to introduce The God Delusion, he was provided with body guards and understandably so). The relief will be only momentary because after you have finished watching it you'll probably want to move to another planet even more than before. Best, Alberto Todeschini _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From cfynn at gmx.net Fri Apr 3 20:35:01 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:35:01 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Former denizens keeping the faith In-Reply-To: <000601c9b1c5$f5540e10$dffc2a30$@org> References: <1238475931.14165.52.camel@localhost> <000601c9b1c5$f5540e10$dffc2a30$@org> Message-ID: <49D6C755.4060007@gmx.net> Alex Wilding wrote: > How refreshing! I too have briefly mentioned E-Sangha on my own blog > (http://dangzang.blogspot.com/2009/03/aro-ter.html), and plan to do more. > Richard, you did not mention that Aro-ter is one of the banned movements. > > (I *really want* to stress that I'm not actually supporting Aro-ter, just > noting the way they have been treated at E-Sangha. Once, when I lived in > Ireland, I wrote a letter to the local paper protesting against an idiotic > attack on the Masons that had been printed - one of those things about the > Protocols of the Elders of Zion etc etc. Lo and behold, within two weeks I > was approached about becoming a Mason. People seem to assume that "He who is > against the lies that are told against me must be for me"! Hence my caution > here.) Oh Alex, too bad you didn't join ~ you cold have started a lodge of Buddhist Masons. - Chris From at8u at virginia.edu Sat Apr 4 12:26:03 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 14:26:03 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D7A63B.2070008@virginia.edu> > > A clearly flawed production, since he did not interview any > Buddhists, and as many of us (or them) know, it's also a > religion..... right? > > Joanna K. > ======================= Hi Joanna, I wouldn't say it's flawed because of the reason you mention, though certainly it isn't flawless either. I don't consider it to be a documentary and so it doesn't have to meet the criteria that I'd like a good documentary to meet. It's just a comedian going around and talking to religious people. He never claims to be comprehensive and he is not obliged to. I did learn something from it and it does have entertainment value. Others may disagree. Best, Alberto Todeschini From lharrington at wesleyan.edu Sat Apr 4 15:04:55 2009 From: lharrington at wesleyan.edu (lharrington at wesleyan.edu) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:04:55 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma Message-ID: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> I'm doing some research with a psychologist who works with Tibetan monks suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) in the wake of being imprisoned and tortured. In particular, they're grappling with severe and invasive flash-backs (involuntary memories of their torture) that occur while they are meditating, and which effectively end their meditation session. I'd like to know if there is any reference in Buddhist meditative literature that alludes to this kind of experience, and perhaps offers an explanation or an antidote. Towards that end, I?ve re-read a range of Indian and Tibetan sources, searching for a commentarial tradition or genre of literature which might be fruitful to pursue. My sampling has included obvious Nikaya sources, A including Pali suttas and Buddhagosa?s Visuddhimagga; Mahayana commentaries within the lam rim and blo sbyong genres, focusing on works ranging from Atisa?s Lamp for the Path(byang chub gyi sgron ma) Tsong kha pa?s Great Exposition of the Stages of the Path (lam rim chen mo), and Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation (thar rgyan); Tantric commentaries focusing on everything from the 6 Yogas of Naropa to the Kalacakra. In addition, I?ve done a literature review of secondary sources on trauma, meditation and PTSD, with an emphasis on studies of Tibetan and Buddhist communities. (I am happy to share a bibliography with interested readers.) So far, I haven?t found much to work with. The only reference to anything close to a flash-back are allusions to memories of past lives. Does anybody have any suggestions about where I should focus my research? Thank you, Laura Harrington From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Apr 4 21:14:36 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 21:14:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: mailman.7.1238781610.29457.buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Message-ID: <1238901277.15716.6.camel@localhost> Alberto confessed to having watched Bill Maher's Religulous. And then he observed: > The relief will be only momentary because after you have finished > watching it you'll probably want to move to another planet even more > than before. I haven't seen this particular Maher piece, but in general I find Maher very tedious. I'm probably becoming a prude in my old age, but I really find gratuitous swearing tiresome. In what I've seen, Maher can't get to the verb of a sentence without tossing in several pointless adverbs that he seems to think make him look very hip and cool. When seeking intelligent critiques of religion, I'll stick to Hume and Nietzsche. Every night I look at the sky in the direction of my home planet and wonder when the ship is coming back to pick me up. Am I being punished for something I did or said there? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Apr 4 21:20:20 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 21:20:20 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: 49D655B6.3050908@virginia.edu Message-ID: <1238901620.15716.12.camel@localhost> Erik Hoogcarspel schreef: > In the Netherlands, the country where I live and that you'll be visiting > shortly, the situation is not much better than in the USA. I guess the > line of thought is quite obvious: heathens go to hell and Christians go > to heaven. Despite what you say, I'm looking forward to spending a semester in the Netherlands. It may be necessary for me to drink a beer about once a month, and if you indulge in such violations of Buddhist precepts, I'd enjoy your companionship. We can speculate about where Nederlanders and Nieuw Mexicanders go when they die. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sat Apr 4 21:22:48 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:22:48 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <1238901277.15716.6.camel@localhost> References: <1238901277.15716.6.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <49D82408.9020901@comp.nus.edu.sg> Richard Hayes wrote: > I haven't seen this particular Maher piece, but in general I find > Maher very tedious. A lot of comedy - in particular stand up comedy, involves quite a bit of negative thinking. Words and thoughts that we normally would fend off are "let loose" in the name of laughter and free speech. We are essentially taken to very dark corners of my mind by the comedian with the comfort that we are not responsible for it. However, karma will kick in... karmic mental formations... W.F. Wong From jayarava at yahoo.com Sun Apr 5 00:49:00 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <504976.51209.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Laura Have a look through the ther?g?th? - published in translation as "Poems of the Early Buddhist Nuns". Some of them suffered traumas and then went on to become Arahants - I seem to recall some of the nuns who recovered from madness. Sorry not to be able to provide references - it's been a while since I read this. There are several examples of 'possession by mara' in which a meditating bhikkhu overcomes this 'invasion'. See especially the M?rasa?yutta in the Sa?yutta N?k?ya (pg 195ff in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation). Possession is clearly distinguished from madness, and more resembles something like an intrusion of something other (memory?) into the consciousness that might be like a flashback. The approach seems to be to get into dialogue with the 'other' - very Jungian. Have you seen "Buddhism and the Mythology of Evil" by Trevor Ling. That might give you some clues as well. Treat the memory as a visit from Mara. Best of luck Jayarava From jayarava at yahoo.com Sun Apr 5 01:02:48 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 00:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <1238901277.15716.6.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <73412.57654.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 5/4/09, Richard Hayes wrote: > When seeking intelligent critiques of religion, I'll stick to Hume > and Nietzsche. Bryan Magee points out that philosophy doesn't seem to progress in an orderly fashion. The science of today is built on the science of yesterday, and bigger and better breakthroughs have been made by a stream of great minds. But in philosophy centuries go by without any great philosophers. His endpoint is Schopenhauer. > Every night I look at the sky in the direction of my home > planet and wonder when the ship is coming back to pick me up. Am I > being punished for something I did or said there? No, it's not personal, samsara just sucks. Remember: so karoti so pa?isamvediyati... sassata? eta? pareti. Ciao Jayarava From jkirk at spro.net Sun Apr 5 06:49:10 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 06:49:10 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: <49D7A63B.2070008@virginia.edu> References: <49D7A63B.2070008@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <9DABC56DD1CC455BBA360DDFB301C6CE@OPTIPLEX> > > A clearly flawed production, since he did not interview any Buddhists, > and as many of us (or them) know, it's also a religion..... right? > > Joanna K. > ======================= Hi Joanna, I wouldn't say it's flawed because of the reason you mention, though certainly it isn't flawless either. I don't consider it to be a documentary and so it doesn't have to meet the criteria that I'd like a good documentary to meet. It's just a comedian going around and talking to religious people. He never claims to be comprehensive and he is not obliged to. I did learn something from it and it does have entertainment value. Others may disagree. Best, Alberto Todeschini =================== Hi Alberto, I was being ironic --guess irony doesn't come across in email. I haven't seen the film yet but certainly intend to, even if I have to wait to get it on Netflix. Joanna From at8u at virginia.edu Sun Apr 5 13:02:24 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 15:02:24 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D90040.3070501@virginia.edu> Dear Richard, > I haven't seen this particular Maher piece, but in general I find Maher > very tedious. I'm probably becoming a prude in my old age, but I really > find gratuitous swearing tiresome. In what I've seen, Maher can't get to > the verb of a sentence without tossing in several pointless adverbs that > he seems to think make him look very hip and cool. I've since looked him up on Wikipedia, the ultimate arbiter of everything worth knowing. Maher seems to be a peculiar fellow. Judging by the movie I'm not surprised that he gets tedious quickly. > When seeking > intelligent critiques of religion, I'll stick to Hume and Nietzsche. Sounds reasonable. The interesting bits of Maher's movie aren't really the bits when he's doing the talking but the replies that he gets from the colorful people he meets. Some of them seem genuinely caring and well-meaning but I'm sure I disagree with about 99.92% of what they think. Other seem to simply be charlatans who swindle believers out of millions. Also, there are a number of highly intelligent people in the movie, such as Reginal Foster (Pope's principal Latinist) and George Coyne (former director of the Vatican Observatory). Foster in particular is very refreshing, but I wonder if he still has his job after what he said on camera. To his credit, most of the time Maher isn't too confrontational or rude. Also, quite frequently the target of his jokes is himself. And Joanna, "I was being ironic --guess irony doesn't come across in email. I haven't seen the film yet but certainly intend to, even if I have to wait to get it on Netflix." Sorry, I missed the irony completely. Some of the most bizzarre parts are the interviews that are included in the DVD but didn't make it in the actual movie/comedy/documentary/whatever it is. For instance, one guy knows of several eye-witness reports that G. Bush senior is a shape-shifting reptilian. You can probably find his books about the reptilian conspiracy, which also includes the British royal family, Tony Blair and others. There are also more sinister or downright frightening people there, like the interviewee who thinks it's good to shoot people to prevent abortion. If you do see it, let us/me know what you think. Best, Alberto From jkirk at spro.net Sun Apr 5 19:02:01 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:02:01 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spring --2 dharma poems Message-ID: At the risk of falling flat on my face--oh well, it's only a face........ Joanna Karma Flowing along Murmuring its silent song Surmounting and crushing Threading winding paths Choked with reeds Crashing down cliffs Reaching level Dissolving into reflections .... Now, look! See your mind In the lake That spreads toward horizons unseen .... Is the mirror clear? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Temple banner from Chiang Mai It's a fine white narrow plastic thing. White lace in the middle With gold borders, Dotted with plastic Blossoms, white and yellow. A strip, divided Into equal segments Like gold metal banners Hanging from temple crests- Segments hinged, So they cascade peacefully. I saw it flying high in Chiang Mai (Some rhymes irresistible as the wind.) Chinese stores sell them, So I was told by Thais. Mine hangs on the screen porch Here in Idaho. It used to fall during high winds. Using a twisty on a nail I fixed it above the top three circles- Buddha red Dharma and Sangha blue. Now it undulates in high wind A lacy dragon beckoning I can only see it through a front window When the wind blows. Does its metal mimesis remind us To follow the Great Example? From roblev at sonic.net Sun Apr 5 12:17:24 2009 From: roblev at sonic.net (Robert Leverant) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:17:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 5 Reply Laura Harrington In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laura, You won't find this in Buddhist literature. You will find what you are seeking in the literature of psycholytic psychotherapy, particularly the work of Hanscarl Leuener . An autobiography which describes a harrowing journey of "curing" severe PTSD flash-backs this way is: Ka-Tzetnik 135633, Shivitti, A Vision (Berkeley: Gateway Books & Tapes, 1998). FYI: this is a small text. Leuner figures in it. He ran a clinic for such persons so afflicted. Robert Leverant > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:04:55 -0000 (UTC) > From: lharrington at wesleyan.edu > Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Message-ID: > <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel at webmail.wesleyan.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 > > I'm doing some research with a psychologist who works with Tibetan monks > suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) in the wake > of being imprisoned and tortured. In particular, they're grappling with > severe and invasive flash-backs (involuntary memories of their torture) > that occur while they are meditating, and which effectively end their > meditation session. I'd like to know if there is any reference in > Buddhist meditative literature that alludes to this kind of experience, and > perhaps offers an explanation or an antidote. > > Towards that end, I?ve re-read a range of Indian and Tibetan sources, > searching for a commentarial tradition or genre of literature which might > be fruitful to pursue. My sampling has included obvious Nikaya sources, A > including Pali suttas and Buddhagosa?s Visuddhimagga; > Mahayana commentaries within the lam rim and blo sbyong genres, focusing > on works ranging from Atisa?s Lamp for the Path(byang chub gyi sgron ma) > Tsong kha pa?s Great Exposition of the Stages of the Path (lam rim chen > mo), and Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation (thar rgyan); > Tantric commentaries focusing on everything from the 6 Yogas of Naropa to > the Kalacakra. > > In addition, I?ve done a literature review of secondary sources on trauma, > meditation and PTSD, with an emphasis on studies of Tibetan and Buddhist > communities. (I am happy to share a bibliography with interested readers.) > > So far, I haven?t found much to work with. The only reference to anything > close to a flash-back are allusions to memories of past lives. Does > anybody have any suggestions about where I should focus my research? > > Thank you, > Laura Harrington > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 21:14:36 -0600 > From: Richard Hayes > Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Message-ID: <1238901277.15716.6.camel at localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain > > Alberto confessed to having watched Bill Maher's Religulous. And then he > observed: > >> The relief will be only momentary because after you have finished >> watching it you'll probably want to move to another planet even more >> than before. > > I haven't seen this particular Maher piece, but in general I find Maher > very tedious. I'm probably becoming a prude in my old age, but I really > find gratuitous swearing tiresome. In what I've seen, Maher can't get to > the verb of a sentence without tossing in several pointless adverbs that > he seems to think make him look very hip and cool. When seeking > intelligent critiques of religion, I'll stick to Hume and Nietzsche. > > Every night I look at the sky in the direction of my home planet and > wonder when the ship is coming back to pick me up. Am I being punished > for something I did or said there? From jkirk at spro.net Sun Apr 5 19:36:58 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:36:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spring --2 dharma poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA10BCC17154338913E69D71DF96D62@OPTIPLEX> At the risk of falling flat on my face--oh well, it's only a face........ Joanna this one got messed up layout-wsie re-sending in hopes---J ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Temple banner from Chiang Mai It's a fine white narrow plastic thing. White lace in the middle With gold borders, Dotted with plastic Blossoms, white and yellow. A strip, divided Into equal segments Like gold metal banners Hanging from temple crests- Segments hinged, So they cascade peacefully. I saw it flying high in Chiang Mai (Some rhymes irresistible as the wind.) Chinese stores sell them, So I was told by Thais. Mine hangs on the screen porch Here in Idaho. It used to fall during high winds. Using a twisty on a nail I fixed it above the top three circles- Buddha red Dharma and Sangha blue. Now it undulates in high wind A lacy dragon beckoning I can only see it through a front window When the wind blows. Does its metal mimesis remind us To follow the Great Example? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Apr 5 19:44:08 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:44:08 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: mailman.3.1238954411.12588.buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Message-ID: <1238982248.9297.24.camel@localhost> Alberto wrote: > For instance, one guy knows of > several eye-witness reports that G. Bush senior is a shape-shifting > reptilian. You can probably find his books about the reptilian > conspiracy, which also includes the British royal family, Tony Blair and > others. One of my former students has a father living in a commune in northern New Mexico who takes this fellow completely seriously. (They don't have a lot of reality up in northern New Mexico, so these wild theories go unchallenged for decades.) This particular conspiracy theorist is named David Icke. My student gave me one of his books. It's the only book I've ever had that I have thrown into the garbage (only because it wouldn't flush down the toilet). Icke is an equal-opportunity hate-monger, but like many such mad haters he is quite sure the Jews play a special role in the unravelling of the universe. Take a look at http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/ for an unpleasant taste. Speaking of bizarre conspiracy theories, have any of you seen "The Secret of the Phoenix"? It's all about how a complex conspiracy of Freemasons, Roman Catholics, Rosicrucians and Theosophists, beginning with George Washington, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson and ending with F.D. Roosevelt and his seemingly benign wife, planned (yes, PLANNED) the collapse of the American economy that is taking place right now so that Lucifer could gain control of the planet earth and control it from the star Sirius. I may have some of the details a little scrambled, so you may want to do a fact check by going to a website that promotes the video. One site is (http://www.survivormall.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=549) Next time someone asks you "Are you Sirius?", be careful how your respond. Could be someone trying to pin you down as a member of the dreaded Illuminati. (Coming from a fairly long line of Freemasons, and being related to the Roosevelts, George Washington and the Bush family, I am probably a certifiable carrier of reptilian DNA and no doubt brainwashed by all manner of Luciferian and Satanic dogmatism. In fact, many of you may wonder what my real motives were in starting up buddha-l in 1991. BWAHAHAhahaHAhaaaaaaa. > There are also more sinister or downright frightening people > there, like the interviewee who thinks it's good to shoot people to > prevent abortion. My neighbor's car has a bumper sticker that says "Killing doctors does not make you pro-life." Today, however, I saw a bumper sticker that I truly envied. It said "Bumper sticker". -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From sfeite at adelphia.net Mon Apr 6 07:14:43 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2009, at 5:04 PM, lharrington at wesleyan.edu wrote: > So far, I haven?t found much to work with. The only reference to > anything > close to a flash-back are allusions to memories of past lives. Does > anybody have any suggestions about where I should focus my research? I think the first thing that's important to keep in mind is that PTSD is a modern discovery and therefore it may be advantageous to look at more modern descriptions and treatments which utilize Buddhist contemplative approaches. Psychiatrist Daniel Siegel, MD, an expert on mental illness and mindfulness meditation has made some interesting comments on mental illness and the patterns that allow them to arise. He comments that virtually every diagnosis in the DSM- IV, the standard handbook for diagnosis of mental and emotional illness, come from the two extremes of "Rigidity" or Chaos" or some combination of the two. For example, with PTSD he observes that one person might exhibit chaotic states like flashbacks and emotional lability, as well as "rigid states of avoidance and numbness". What they're finding is that healing of such patterns has a lot to do with the "resonance circuitry" of the brain, especially the various functions of the prefrontal cortex (there are nine such functions). Matthieu Ricard points out in his Google talk that when talking to various refugees who escaped from Tibet who were severely abused and tortured by the Chinese, one of their greatest fears was *that they'd lose their ability to feel compassion for their to torturers* (!). So much of who they were and what they did and how they saw the world was about generating and maintaining lovingkindness for all beings, that the thought of losing that ability was just unthinkable. And maybe there were some who could resist falling into hatred and extreme aversion, but I think realistically we can imagine what forcing monks who generated compassion full-time to systematic torture would or could do to such mindstates. While we now know that generation of compassion has noticeable, neuroplastic changes to the brain, we have to also admit that severe torture, esp. over long periods of time would also leave it's own imprint on the brain as well: one not easily escapable from. It would seem to me what modern psychiatric and neurological insight is telling us, that in order to free ourselves from such patterns, we essentially need to create a meditative space where the circuitry of the prefrontal cortex will "reweave" it's inter-neuronal connections. One thing we know for certain is that in allocentric forms of meditation we create changes in the prefrontal cortex so that our ability to form and appreciate the minds of "others" is greatly enhanced. In fact it's so enhanced that in adept Buddhist practitioners, even when presented with extremely averse images like a burn victim or a horribly deformed child, these important areas of integrative interbeing in the prefrontal cortex just "light up". Show that same imagery to Jane or Joe on the street and this circuitry of the prefrontal cortex does an interesting thing: it shuts down. *It goes dark.* The importance of this is touched on by Daniel Siegel in a lecture given at Claremont School of Theology at the Neurosciences and Spirituality Conference. If I were to recommend one lecture on Buddhism and Neuroscience to watch from the last year, this would be it (esp. the last 6 minutes or so). It can be found at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-312291860326281852&hl=en It may be helpful to be familiar with Siegel's _The Mindful Brain: Reflection and Attunement in the Cultivation of Well-Being_ to grok some of the references in this lecture. I take it you're familiar the research already being done on PTSD in Iraq War veterans using Buddhist meditation?, it's this type of work that would probably carry over quite well into Tibetan refugees. Are you familiar with MBCT? Sincerely, Steve Feite From at8u at virginia.edu Mon Apr 6 07:53:08 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:53:08 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Be good for Godsake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DA0944.9090001@virginia.edu> Richard Hayes wrote: > One of my former students has a father living in a commune in northern > New Mexico who takes this fellow completely seriously. (They don't have > a lot of reality up in northern New Mexico, so these wild theories go > unchallenged for decades.) This particular conspiracy theorist is named > David Icke. My student gave me one of his books. It's the only book I've > ever had that I have thrown into the garbage (only because it wouldn't > flush down the toilet). Icke is an equal-opportunity hate-monger, but > like many such mad haters he is quite sure the Jews play a special role > in the unravelling of the universe. Take a look at > http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/ for an unpleasant taste. Wow, it's a small world, eh? It's the same fellow who in the interview with Maher talks about the shape-shifting reptilian conspiracy (it's not in the final version of the movie, it's in the extras on DVD). I didn't know his name. Now I'm trying to forget it. Best, Alberto Todeschini From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Apr 6 13:13:50 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:13:50 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Seminar at Bodhi Manda Zen Center Message-ID: <200904061313.50977.rhayes@unm.edu> Dear Denizens, Every year for the past couple of decades the University of New Mexico has offered an intensive 3-credit two-week summer course through the departments of philosophy and religious studies. The seminars are also open to people not interested in taking them for academic credit. The course is offered at Bodhi Manda Zen Center in the J?mez Mountains about one hour northwest of Albuquerque. This year an especially talented tam of presenters has been lined up: Shoryu Katsura (Ryukoku Daigaku, Kyoyo), Jay Garfield and Peter Gregory (both from Smith College) and Wendy Adamek (Bernard College/Columbia University). The seminars run from June 1 through June 13. For more detailed information please go to to http://www.summerseminar.org/ -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From minh_dieu at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 14:35:21 2009 From: minh_dieu at yahoo.com (Minh Dieu) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Asking for Article regarding Unified Vietnamese Buddhist Congregation In USA Message-ID: <92682.42116.qm@web33204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello All, I am looking for the references that state about Vietnamese Buddhist Organization In USA. I am still not catching the source. If you know book, article, electronic article and so on please let me know. Thanks for helping.. With Metta... Minh Dieu From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 03:56:46 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 05:56:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> Steve Feite writes: "Matthieu Ricard points out in his Google talk that when talking to various refugees who escaped from Tibet who were severely abused and tortured by the Chinese, one of their greatest fears was *that they'd lose their ability to feel compassion for their to torturers* (!). So much of who they were and what they did and how they saw the world was about generating and maintaining lovingkindness for all beings, that the thought of losing that ability was just unthinkable." I would be very cautious about taking these sorts of reports too seriously, or without further examination. I know Tibetans who don't find a healthy expression of outrage something outside their "practice." And there are some courageous Tibetan women who were abused and raped in Nepal while escaping from Tibet who have attempted to organize and mobilize to bring some justice to the situation and to make such passage safer. Anger is not absent from their vocabulary. After the Khmer Rouge were deposed and the aftermath of their carnage and torture of their fellow Cambodians became known, visitors and reporters repeatedly explained to a (disbelieving or admiring -- select your preference) western audience how devoid of malice, revenge, etc. Cambodians were, and all sorts of explanations of how their notions of karma provided them with this "healthy" forgiving attitude were offered. They were not even interested in justice or finding or prosecuting the guilty. The Asia Society Magazine had a detailed essay (with pictures) in the mid-80s (it went defunct a year or so later). As a little more time has shown, the Cambodians were not a nation of forgiving Buddhist saints. Rather the entire country was in stunned shock, and it took more than a decade for the real anger, grief, despair, etc., to emerge and find expression. The shock has worn off and the pain is now searing with more recognizable and predictable effects. As for searching for ancient Buddhist cures for PTSD, that would be naive. PTSD as a diagnosis is not simply about flashbacks, or exactly what was understood as shellshock, etc. Sex abuse, especially of young children, is also a common cause, and in such cases there are few if any "flashbacks" (therapists are rather worried about false memories, an issue Freud already came to recognize). What makes PTSD a distinct diagnosis, and not just a fancy name for trauma or haunting memories, is a full complex of symptoms and issues which typically engulf and thoroughly influence a person's entire behavioral and mental orientation, and it is frequently suicidal. When properly diagnosed, it is not your garden variety traumatic aftereffect, and remains, even for the leading professionals, very difficult to treat. There are some Buddhist manuals that describe various types of mental issues and meditation problems, such as (usually very brief) discussions of "Zen sickness," but none with the sort of etiological richness or therapeutic depth that one would expect from a modern psychological prognosis and treatment plan. And I have never seen anything in such texts that remotely reminded me of PTSD. Let's keep in mind, for instance, that mental illness was a *disqualifying* condition from being accepted in the sangha, and grounds for expulsion if manifested by someone already a cleric. In general Buddhists "professionals" (monks, etc.) were not in the business of curing major mental disorders. Some forms of practice kicked up dangerous and scary samskaras, which the texts do give advice on dealing with, but this is not easily transferable to serious mental disorders except as loose analogies. It is probably not simply by historical accident that in China, for instance, it became the Daoists who were considered the masters of exorcism (Buddhists were masters of funerals and certain types of festivals). Fox exorcism remains a big money maker and a significant portion of the training of Soto monks in Japan, but probably due to the absence of Daoists and the morphing of the native shamanistic traditions into Buddhism. In Korea, shamans would still be the average person's first choice for serious problems of this sort, not the local Buddhist monk. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 04:05:06 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:05:06 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Asking for Article regarding Unified Vietnamese BuddhistCongregation In USA References: <92682.42116.qm@web33204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008501c9b768$539d2860$2101a8c0@Dan> > I am looking for the references that state about Vietnamese Buddhist Organization In USA. I am still not catching the source. If you know book, article, electronic article and so on please let me know. > Thanks for helping.. > With Metta... > Minh Dieu Minh Quang's PhD dissertation at FSU (2007), titled "Vietnamese Buddhism In America" provides a good overview. It is available online: http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-07162007-154557/ Dan Lusthaus From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 7 03:25:01 2009 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:25:01 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <49DB1BED.8080308@ntlworld.com> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Let's keep in mind, for instance, that mental illness was a *disqualifying* > condition from being accepted in the sangha, and grounds for expulsion if > manifested by someone already a cleric. Current mental illness would certainly disqualify for acceptance as a fully ordained monk. That's hardly surprising. But what is your source for the claim that it could lead to expulsion ? As far as I know, mental illness is a valid defence in some cases where there is an allegation or confession of a p?r?jika offence. As regards the general point, I agree that we should not look in meditation manuals for advice on such things. Generally they are just schematic guides. Most things concerning meditation are part of an oral tradition or matters of following a technique that leads to self-discovery. Lance Cousins From jayarava at yahoo.com Tue Apr 7 04:11:19 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 03:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4274.9753.qm@web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Let's keep in mind, for instance, that mental illness > was a *disqualifying* condition from being accepted in the sangha, and > grounds for expulsion if manifested by someone already a cleric. Peter Harvey's article on culpability (JBE 6, 1999) makes the opposite point - that madness (umm?da; "Mental illness" is such a ghastly and misleading phrase) is grounds for not being held culpable for vinaya offences. This is brought out in several vinaya passages featuring the mad monk Gagga - who did not come to assembly when called and committed offences because he was gaga! Gagga is not-guilty of several offences on the grounds of insanity. It is quite an interesting case study because initially it is a let off for Gagga, but is then made a general principle, which I think shows something of the process of making the vinaya. Gagga is neither censured nor expelled from the order because of his affliction and the Sangha shows quite a bit of flexibility in working around him. Perhaps you are thinking of some other tradition, or some other period? Otherwise I think you are right to flag up the complex nature of what have become throwaway terms like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. The reality of mental problems is often difficult for us lay people to understand, let alone diagnose and treat. I don't ask my doctor for advice on Sanskrit grammar or ancient Indian history... Regards Jayarava BTW I checked and gaga/Gagga don't seem to be etymologically related. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 06:16:01 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:16:01 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma References: <4274.9753.qm@web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013501c9b77a$9de28110$2101a8c0@Dan> Dear Lance and Jayarava, Peter Harvey's JBE essay aside, this is a more complex matter than a simple thumbs up or thumbs down to mad monks. Several things: (1) there is a huge spectrum of things that would fall under "mental illness", or unm?da if you prefer (an important issue in Indian medicine; an entire chapter is devoted to it in the Caraka-samhita, for instance), from basic disorientations regarding time and place (not knowing what day it is or where you are can get you committed today, or at least receive an official diagnostic label), which would include not showing up for meetings; all the way to psychotic, violent outbursts. Different cases would/should be treated differently, depending on severity, how extreme the behavior (does he just talk to himself and ignore others, or does he defecate and urinate all over himself while rambling incoherently? Is he violent? Self-abusive [cutting, mutilating himself, etc.] requiring restraints? And so on.) (2) The issue would not be "culpability" if one is truly insane, but treatment or the safety of the person and of others. Because otherwise intentional behaviors are now to be viewed as non-intentional, non-culpable, the idea of demons, possession, past unresolved karma, etc., became attractive explanations, and the more attractive such explanations became, the more recourse would be taken to confronting demons, exorcisms, charms, etc. as "cures." Dunhuang is full of such "medical" texts. (3) If one was properly admitted to the order, one should not have been insane at that time, but has become insane during [maybe because of] one's existence as a sangha member. The sangha thereby shares some responsibility for that person's present condition. (4) The "text" aside, what has been done in Theravadin cultures with the severely disturbed? Have they been returned to their families? When the closest thing to a hospital would be a sangha community, they may take on the issue of care simply by default. Indeed other vinayas seem to be clearer that crazy behavior, even mildly rude behavior, *may* be grounds for expulsion. That appears to be the general understanding in East Asia, but I believe that is also expressed in the Mulasarvastivada Vinaya. Don't have time now to hunt down references. Of course, some Buddhists (especially in the Chan/Zen traditions) also romantically extolled the enlightened virtues of crazy monks, but these were not "insane" in a disturbed way, though their social rudeness might be disturbing to the less enlightened around them. cheers (and a crazy laugh), Dan From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Apr 7 06:56:53 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:56:53 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2009, at 5:56 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Steve Feite writes: > "Matthieu Ricard points out in his Google talk that when talking to > various refugees who escaped from Tibet who were severely abused and > tortured by the Chinese, one of their greatest fears was *that they'd > lose their ability to feel compassion for their to torturers* (!). So > much of who they were and what they did and how they saw the world > was about generating and maintaining lovingkindness for all beings, > that the thought of losing that ability was just unthinkable." > > I would be very cautious about taking these sorts of reports too > seriously, > or without further examination. I know Tibetans who don't find a > healthy > expression of outrage something outside their "practice." And there > are some > courageous Tibetan women who were abused and raped in Nepal while > escaping > from Tibet who have attempted to organize and mobilize to bring > some justice > to the situation and to make such passage safer. Anger is not > absent from > their vocabulary. I would suspect the aforementioned example would be the exception rather than the rule. It could be that trauma avoided might be proportional to meditative expertise. It might also be an interesting comment on what aspects of neural circuitry support healing and which parts are potentially damaged. I think the more Buddhist take on this might be that given the reality of neuroplasticity, no one is a prisoner of karma. BTW, that example by Matthieu Ricard is from the documentary _Monks, In the Lab_. > > As for searching for ancient Buddhist cures for PTSD, that would be > naive. > PTSD as a diagnosis is not simply about flashbacks, or exactly what > was > understood as shellshock, etc. Sex abuse, especially of young > children, is > also a common cause, and in such cases there are few if any > "flashbacks" > (therapists are rather worried about false memories, an issue Freud > already > came to recognize). What makes PTSD a distinct diagnosis, and not > just a > fancy name for trauma or haunting memories, is a full complex of > symptoms > and issues which typically engulf and thoroughly influence a > person's entire > behavioral and mental orientation, and it is frequently suicidal. When > properly diagnosed, it is not your garden variety traumatic > aftereffect, and > remains, even for the leading professionals, very difficult to treat. Nonetheless, there appears to be some success with (mindfulness) meditation. Scientists like Siegel provide a reasonable explanation for why this is the case. As they say 'change your mind, change your brain'. From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Apr 7 07:18:41 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:18:41 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> <005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net> On Apr 7, 2009, at 8:56 AM, S.A. Feite wrote: > Nonetheless, there appears to be some success with (mindfulness) > meditation. Scientists like Siegel provide a reasonable explanation > for why this is the case. As they say 'change your mind, change your > brain'. From Neurologist and Zen Master James H. Austin's new book _Selfless Insight: Zen and the Meditative Transformations of Consciousness_: Intriguing clinical studies have been conducted on patients who suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) (chapter 36).8 Structural MRI scans have suggested that among normal subjects, a thicker ventral medial prefrontal cortex is associated with their retaining a greater capacity to extinguish fearful behavior. Other data suggest that genetic deficits in the way the hippocampus processes cues could also predispose PTSD patients to develop their stress disorder.9 Clearly, a complex circuitry is involved in enhancing and suppressing our fears. Simpler practical measures, including mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) training, and cognitive retraining have much to recommend them as parts of a conservative approach to treating less severe forms of PTSD. The evidence that different subtypes exist among patients who suffer from obsessivecompulsive disorder (OCD) suggests that several different modules in the larger network helps determine which patients are more likely to improve on cognitive behavioral therapy per se10 [ZBR:84]. References 8. S. Rauch, L. Shin, E. Phelps. Neurocircuitry models of post- traumatic stress disorder and extinction: Human neuroimaging research past, present, and future. Biological Psychiatry 2006; 60:376?382. 9. M. Gilbertson, S. Williston, L. Paulus, et al. Configural cue performance in identical twins discordant for posttraumatic stress disorder: Theoretical implications for the role of hippocampal function. Biological Psychiatry 2007; 62:513?520. 10. A. Brody, S. Saxena, J. Schwartz, et al. FDG-PET predictors of response to behavioral therapy and pharmacotherapy in obsessive compulsive disorder. Psychiatry Research 1998; 84:1? 6. Zen practice employs mindful introspection and analysis (chapter 33). With regard to this top-down capacity to modulate the emotions, it is important to appreciate how effective a tool cognitive retraining is in defusing the urgency of obsessive and compulsive behaviors in some patients, and in reversing their PET scan abnormalities. From lharrington at wesleyan.edu Tue Apr 7 08:12:29 2009 From: lharrington at wesleyan.edu (lharrington at wesleyan.edu) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] monks and trauma In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53376.141.157.189.58.1239113549.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> First, thanks to all of you for your thoughtful responses to my PTSD query. I so appreciate all the time and energy you have contributed to this effort. I've also been enjoying the follow-up conversation on monks and madness. It is perhaps a good opportunity for me to respond quickly to Dan Lusthaus very valid concern about the severity and complexity of PTSD, and the relative inadequacy of the Buddhist meditative literature to address it. The monks on whose behalf I am doing this research are, as is appropriate, being treated by psychologists and physicians with long training in treating PTSD and other trauma-related concerns. As such, the purpose of my query is not to find a "solution" to PTSD in a Buddhist text or texts that would substitute for such treatment. Rather, I am hoping to tease out various perspectives or strategies from within their own tradition that might complement their present treatment. I have learned a great deal from the responses I have received so far, and I hope to learn more from all of you in the future. Thanks, Laura From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 08:31:11 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:31:11 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> <5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan> Steve, The quote for Austin's book offers a bunch of dreamy "maybe-s" for the future, not science. Genetic predisposition to PTSD by means of hippocampus deficiencies is speculative at best, and would at best be a partial explanation for some types of PTSD. The footnote in support of his claim "Simpler practical measures, including mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) training, and cognitive retraining have much to recommend them as parts of a conservative approach to treating less severe forms of PTSD" is nothing more than the vaguest of facts, viz., that Zen involves introspective analysis. Note, also, that he is at least being careful enough to qualify his endorsement as "part" of treatment for "less severe forms of PTSD." In fact, that is precisely what remains to be seen or proven. What is the case is that the seemingly innocuous activity of "sitting" can be excruciating and impossible for people with PTSD -- they can't do it; it's NOT innocuous for them, precisely because it brings up all the things they are unable to handle or that are torturing them. The very first time I participated in Zen training (actually Son, but that's besides the point), I was part of a group of nearly fifty neophytes undergoing several days of training, all getting our first taste of "sitting." One of the people, a friend and fellow Religious Studies major, had been in Vietnam, and had served in intelligence; I won't go into detail, but typical assignments were interrogating suspected Viet Cong by taking several up in a chopper and throwing them out one by one until one spoke. He had been brainwashed in his training into unquestioningly obeying orders, that what he was doing was the right thing, etc. Once back stateside the true nature of what he had been doing finally hit him, and he was drenched in guilt about it -- though he could go about his average day with a cheerful, humorous disposition, and rarely spoke about it. The poor fellow did not make it through a single day -- in his words, "this is like being bootcamp again... that guy (the Son master) is trying to read my mind ... this is like being back in the service..." He couldn't sit, and went home. Interestingly, another of us neophytes, another undergrad was a Rosicrucian virgin, meaning she had grown up with Rosicrucian parents as part of a Rosicrucian community, participating in their rituals, etc. A sweet girl, she had looked forward to the Zen experience, and had even sowed my zafu for me that I took to training. Like the ex-soldier, sitting dredged up god-knows-what for her, freaked her out, and like him, she also left before the first evening was over, never explaining why except that things were coming up and one could see on her face that she was greatly distressed and distraught. To imagine "sitting" is the panacea for such problems is cruel, like forcing cod liver oil down a child's throat -- except the cod liver oil has a more proven track record of actually being effective. Similarly, "I would suspect the aforementioned example [about Cambodia's cultural traumatic shock] would be the exception rather than the rule. It could be that trauma avoided might be proportional to meditative expertise. It might also be an interesting comment on what aspects of neural circuitry support healing and which parts are potentially damaged. I think the more Buddhist take on this might be that given the reality of neuroplasticity, no one is a prisoner of karma." is potentially moralistic demonization. One decides beforehand, and for no reason aside from ideological preference, that trauma responses of one sort are better than others, and then posit that the less desired response reflects an (unproven) brain pathology. Only good little boys and girls who behave like Sunday school ideals have "healthy" brains, or, conversely, those who are a bit nastier than one approves of must be so due to some unhealthy brain developments. This is just moral indignation at an imaginary remove, deflected onto physiology, and certainly not helpful. PTSD tends toward suicidal behavior -- that means anger is internalized, turned in, blaming and punishing oneself. Part of the cure is to -- at least initially -- externalize it, let it vent, let it show itself (part of the internalization involves denying the anger is there, and thus hiding it, or, if recognizing the presence of anger, denying its actual object or instigator; e.g. blaming oneself for being angry). Telling such a person that any show of anger is warping their brain is cruel and counterproductive. Dan Lusthaus From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Apr 7 09:19:33 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:19:33 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan> <5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net> <017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > The quote for Austin's book offers a bunch of dreamy "maybe-s" for the > future, not science. Genetic predisposition to PTSD by means of > hippocampus > deficiencies is speculative at best, and would at best be a partial > explanation for some types of PTSD. The footnote in support of his > claim > > "Simpler practical measures, including mindfulness-based stress > reduction > (MBSR) training, and cognitive retraining have much to recommend > them as > parts of a conservative approach to treating less severe forms of > PTSD" Correct. > In fact, that is precisely what remains to be seen or proven. What > is the > case is that the seemingly innocuous activity of "sitting" can be > excruciating and impossible for people with PTSD -- they can't do > it; it's > NOT innocuous for them, precisely because it brings up all the > things they > are unable to handle or that are torturing them. I believe the DSM-IV calls it "relaxation-induced anxiety". > > The very first time I participated in Zen training (actually Son, > but that's > besides the point), I was part of a group of nearly fifty neophytes > undergoing several days of training, all getting our first taste of > "sitting." One of the people, a friend and fellow Religious Studies > major, > had been in Vietnam, and had served in intelligence; I won't go > into detail, > but typical assignments were interrogating suspected Viet Cong by > taking > several up in a chopper and throwing them out one by one until one > spoke. He > had been brainwashed in his training into unquestioningly obeying > orders, > that what he was doing was the right thing, etc. Once back > stateside the > true nature of what he had been doing finally hit him, and he was > drenched > in guilt about it -- though he could go about his average day with a > cheerful, humorous disposition, and rarely spoke about it. The poor > fellow > did not make it through a single day -- in his words, "this is like > being > bootcamp again... that guy (the Son master) is trying to read my > mind ... > this is like being back in the service..." He couldn't sit, and > went home. > (snip) Well obviously, if the person is suffering from relaxation-induced anxiety AND they were still interested in learning to sit, they may want to address their anxiety with a medical professional first. > > Similarly, > > "I would suspect the aforementioned example [about Cambodia's cultural > traumatic shock] would be the exception rather than the rule. It > could be > that trauma avoided might be proportional to meditative expertise. > It might > also be an interesting comment on what aspects of neural circuitry > support > healing and which parts are potentially damaged. > > I think the more Buddhist take on this might be that given the > reality of neuroplasticity, no one is a prisoner of karma." > > is potentially moralistic demonization. Non sequitur. The above quote was NOT responding to your vignette on Cambodia, but on the quote directly above my response on Tibetan refuges. > One decides beforehand, and for no > reason aside from ideological preference, that trauma responses of > one sort > are better than others, and then posit that the less desired response > reflects an (unproven) brain pathology. Only good little boys and > girls who > behave like Sunday school ideals have "healthy" brains, or, > conversely, > those who are a bit nastier than one approves of must be so due to > some > unhealthy brain developments. This is just moral indignation at an > imaginary > remove, deflected onto physiology, and certainly not helpful. Wow, it seems like you really missed my point to try to make this implication of "Only good little boys and girls who behave like Sunday school ideals have "healthy" brains" as part of what my point was. The actual point was that people who were subjected to trauma might have more resilience if they possessed certain contemplative skills--and those whose brains were adversely affected by the trauma they receive aren't necessarily doomed to some hard-wired fate. This does not necessarily mean that contemplative psychological approaches are appropriate for all patients or for all levels of PTSD. But what it may mean is that we may be able to find non-sectarian approaches to mental healing which don't involve medication. Steve Feite From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 10:21:51 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:21:51 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan><5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net><017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <01c201c9b79c$f5b327b0$2101a8c0@Dan> > Well obviously, if the person is suffering from relaxation-induced > anxiety AND they were still interested in learning to sit, they may > want to address their anxiety with a medical professional first. I haven't seen or heard from either of them in many years, but last I heard neither was interested in a second exposure. The first taste was too traumatic. Both left thoroughly shaken, and were still visibly trying to shake that off a week or two later. > Non sequitur. The above quote was NOT responding to your vignette on > Cambodia, but on the quote directly above my response on Tibetan > refuges. Actually, it makes no difference whether you were referring to Tibetan refugees or Cambodians. The same criticism applies either way. > Wow, it seems like you really missed my point to try to make this > implication And you seem to have missed my point. You have already decided which type of response is preferred, and assume that brain pathology would back up that preference. The implication is that someone responding in the less preferred way (i.e., less preferred by you) must have their negative state isomorphically imprinted on their brain physiology. It is also merely presumption -- not fact supported by evidence -- that certain types of practices and meditations, etc., will better prepare one for life's adversities, including the sorts of things causing PTSD. That's an assumption I assume many people on this list would like to have substantiated, but there is no evidence of that yet. Again, it is a moralistic or quasi-moralistic projection. When, on the other hand, one looks at actual extreme cases (e.g., Nazi concentration camps, long-term drought and famine refugees, etc.) it becomes clear that all sorts of unseemly mental dispositions are the best predictors of survivability, and that moral focus can actually be a liability. I am not, btw, reducing meditative preparedness to "moral" issues. If you prefer the word "ideological" in this context, it that makes the point clearer, than go with that. But I do have suspicions that Buddhists or Buddhism-sympathizers have reasons for investing in the belief that such practices afford practical protections and immunities (otherwise, why valorize them or imagine they have magical efficacy?), a belief which, I also suspect, is less common among serious long-term practitioners who know better. In short, it may be the case that a better "immunization" from PTSD may be to develop the character of a mean SOB. Ultimately, no guarantees, either way. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 10:35:01 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:35:01 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks and trauma References: <53376.141.157.189.58.1239113549.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <01e701c9b79e$cc9878b0$2101a8c0@Dan> Dear Laura, Back in Feb. 2007, Justin Whitaker posted the following on H-Buddhism re: "mental illness and Buddhism", which may be helpful: 1. Ruwanpura E, Mercer SW, Ager A and Duveen G. Cultural and spiritual constructions of mental distress and associated coping mechanisms of Tibetans in exile: implications for western interventions. J Ref. Studies 2006, 19: 187-202 2. Mercer SW, Ager A and Ruwanpura E. Psychosocial distress of Tibetans in exile: integrating western interventions with traditional beliefs and practice. Social Science and Medicine 2005, 60 (1), 179-189 3. 2000. Jacobson, Eric Emil. Situated knowledge in classical Tibetan medicine: Psychiatric aspects. PhD. Harvard University, 2000, 687 pages AAT 9988621 (it's mostly about affective and anxiety disorders but has some discussion of psychotic disorders.) 4. 1997. Bonnie Pasqualoni. The Art of Healing: A Tibetan Buddhist Perspective. http://www.dharma-haven.org/tibetan/tibetan-art-of- healing.htm#Tibetan%20Art%20of%20Healing 5. A very large bibliography of Tibetan Medicine: http://asianmedcom.site.securepod.com/research/tibet/projects/page7.htm Dan Lusthaus From jmp at peavler.org Tue Apr 7 10:52:54 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:52:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Maher as philosopher In-Reply-To: <49DA0944.9090001@virginia.edu> References: <49DA0944.9090001@virginia.edu> Message-ID: I have always thought of Maher as one of the better stand-up comics (although I understand his present TV show is a sit down, round-table, kind of like Howdy-doody's Meet the Press on NBC on Sunday). I wouldn't mistake him for a serious documentary creator, nor as a religious philosopher, nor anyone who should be held to remembering to be sure to ask a crack-pot from every known religion to say or do something stupid for his movie (which, though I didn't see it) I bet was done more for comic effect than for theology or academic accuracy and completeness. And, since I grew up amongst kinda rough cowboys, miners, and lumberers I got used to a certain roughness of language, used mostly for emphasis (like pointing your finger), which was expanded considerably by several years in the civil rights movement, so that I am not offended by mere profanity, obscenity, nor sacrilege. It takes hate-speech (which I have also heard a considerable amount of) to piss me off. It sounds like I would probably enjoy this "documentary". As long as it only makes fun of a reasonable selection of religious nonsense, I am cool with it. Sorry -- I'm kinda unsophisticated that way. From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Apr 7 11:26:49 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:26:49 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <01c201c9b79c$f5b327b0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan><5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net><017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan> <01c201c9b79c$f5b327b0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> Wow, it seems like you really missed my point to try to make this >> implication > > And you seem to have missed my point. You have already decided > which type of > response is preferred, and assume that brain pathology would back > up that > preference. The implication is that someone responding in the less > preferred > way (i.e., less preferred by you) must have their negative state > isomorphically imprinted on their brain physiology. Well, let's look at my original comment then: "I would suspect the aforementioned example would be the exception rather than the rule. It could be that trauma avoided might be proportional to meditative expertise. It might also be an interesting comment on what aspects of neural circuitry support healing and which parts are potentially damaged. I think the more Buddhist take on this might be that given the reality of neuroplasticity, no one is a prisoner of karma." Which "response" are you referring to? Trauma vs. no trauma? Immunity vs. non-immunity? Trauma inducing neurological changes vs. trauma which doesn't produce neuro. changes? Of course the preferred state would be the ability to remain immune vs. pathological changes to the brain--in the same way the preferred state for Smallpox would be to be immune via vaccination vs. infectable. Resilience from acute suffering vs. horrendous suffering. Relatively immune from suffering vs. more potentially traumatized. Of course I'm not including other forms of resilience here. People may be relatively immune for other reasons: environmental, developmental, genetic, etc. What the assumption is is that trauma can cause changes to the brain, and that those changes represent a form of pathology and those changes are supportive for mental and emotional suffering that has the potential to remain--until neuroplastic changes occur to free one from that suffering. An example: Reactive Attachment Disorder in young children who experience emotional trauma or neglect. > > It is also merely presumption -- not fact supported by evidence -- > that > certain types of practices and meditations, etc., will better > prepare one > for life's adversities, including the sorts of things causing PTSD. I'm pretty sure there is science on this. Whether the conclusions are parsed in a way you would accept is another question. Since it appears a presumption in the research on MBCT is that once neuroplastic changes occur in certain patients with depression, resiliency is attained and therefore relapse is unlikely, I would expect similar resiliency to be possible for various afflictive emotions. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Apr 7 13:23:13 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:23:13 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan><5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net><017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan><01c201c9b79c$f5b327b0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <021001c9b7b6$4be15800$2101a8c0@Dan> Steve, Disneyland used to have a section called Tomorrowland (maybe it still does, haven't been there for many years). It touted all the wonderful things just around the corner in the future. Futuristic kitchens, gravity-free autos, etc, etc, "Better living through chemistry" (a corporate slogan that served as a sly punchline in the 60s, and has undermined the ability of our air and water to support healthy life). The future eventually arrives, but rarely as imagined. Watch some of the predictive films of those times for a good chuckle. You are confusing the dreams some have about what the future might be, with what is presently the case, and with what sufficient evidence indicates has a good chance of being the case in the future. Brain plasticity is the "hot" thing these days, tons of research coming out, but aside from showing that the brain is not a static organ, and that it can undergo modifications -- in complex networks of ways -- due to reactions to external experiences or to how such experiences are experienced, little else is certain about how "plastic" the brain is or how it really works. Our lack of knowledge is replaced by hyperactive theorizing and speculation -- which is fine... that leads to experiments and tests, and actual knowledge is gained thereby. But on the popular front, people and generalists tend to run with the penumbras of speculation as if those are the facts. Think of all the "groundbreaking" announcements one hears on the news about some new medical breakthrough, which, when you get through the journalistic hype, usually turns out to be a very mundane laboratory result that -- if it holds up with subsequent experimentation -- may contribute in some way, years down the road, to a cure for cancer or diabetes or whatever because it may have some noticeable affect on some micro-anatomical process that some believe plays a role in cancer, diabetes, etc. Gamblers call this kind of thing "long shot." > Well, let's look at my original comment then: > > "I would suspect the aforementioned example would be the exception > rather than the rule. I suspect your suspicion is unfounded. There is a lot of anger, etc., in the Tibetan community, about many things (and not just among the youth). Let's do a rigorous poll and get out of the suspicion business. >It could be that trauma avoided might be > proportional to meditative expertise. And here is a tentative cause-effect claim. Obviously a large part of my comments were directed at exactly this assumption. >It might also be an interesting > comment on what aspects of neural circuitry support healing and which > parts are potentially damaged. And here we've entered Disneyland... > I think the more Buddhist take on this might be that given the > reality of neuroplasticity, no one is a prisoner of karma." In fact, according to Buddhism we are all prisoners of karma, bound by the bonds (there is a rich vocabulary for binding conditions, bonds, bondage, fetters, etc.). Unless you propose to liberate sentient beings through neurosurgery or chemical alteration of the brain, the physical corollaries to the cognitive-affective processes are fairly irrelevant, a hobby pursuit perhaps (think arrow-in-eye story). > What the assumption is is that trauma can cause changes to the brain, > and that those changes represent a form of pathology and those > changes are supportive for mental and emotional suffering that has > the potential to remain--until neuroplastic changes occur to free one > from that suffering. All that can be reformulated more accurately and coherently without recourse to the brain. The pathology from trauma is already patent, with or without identified brain correlates. And again, unless you want to fix the problem by working directly on the brain, the theoretical "neuroplastic changes" you require would be primarily byproducts of mental interventions and work, again making the brain story an interesting but irrelevant sidebar vis-a-vis the cure. "Cure" is a big word, and may involve entirely different techniques than immunization. > I'm pretty sure there is science on this. There are lab results open-ended enough to interpret in a variety of ways, this being one hopeful way. But this is not fact yet. > Since it appears a presumption in the research on MBCT is that once > neuroplastic changes occur in certain patients with depression, > resiliency is attained and therefore relapse is unlikely, I would > expect similar resiliency to be possible for various afflictive > emotions. "Presumption" is the operative word there. Know any cured depressives? Dan From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 16:26:15 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 00:26:15 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks and trauma In-Reply-To: <53376.141.157.189.58.1239113549.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> References: <53376.141.157.189.58.1239113549.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <577277167.20090408002615@gmail.com> L Harrington wrote: lwe> I am hoping to tease out various perspectives or strategies from lwe> within their own tradition that might complement their present lwe> treatment. just to point a famous episode absent in this discussion, the strategy applied by Buddha to Kisa Gotami to solve her traumatized mind: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/noncanon/comy/thiga-10-01-ao0.html Probably you know similar strategies in modern therapy in the Brief Strategic and Systemic Therapy of Giorgio Nardone and others: http://www.giorgionardone.it/ The American side is the Mental Research Institute of Palo Alto, CA: http://www.mri.org/ These authors sometimes use Buddhist texts to exemplify aspects or to stress the importance of the present moment. Well but how anyone can know if only medical interpretations are enough in a religious person. Unfortunately, the traumatic episode frequently is an unavoidable presence in the spiritual path. Even if the person has not lived a sensorial experience the mind can show such things when the moment arrives. I remember psychologist Rollo May cites in "Love and Will" the biblical episode in where Jacob fight against God. He achieves the victory but getting a lameness for the rest of his life. best regards, From sfeite at adelphia.net Wed Apr 8 06:10:29 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:10:29 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma In-Reply-To: <021001c9b7b6$4be15800$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan><5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net><017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan><01c201c9b79c$f5b327b0$2101a8c0@Dan> <021001c9b7b6$4be15800$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <6A38A97A-0EC9-4E87-87ED-FDA30048CE33@adelphia.net> Hi Dan: On Apr 7, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Disneyland used to have a section called Tomorrowland (maybe it > still does, > haven't been there for many years). It touted all the wonderful > things just > around the corner in the future. Futuristic kitchens, gravity-free > autos, > etc, etc, "Better living through chemistry" (a corporate slogan > that served > as a sly punchline in the 60s, and has undermined the ability of > our air and > water to support healthy life). The future eventually arrives, but > rarely as > imagined. Watch some of the predictive films of those times for a good > chuckle. You are confusing the dreams some have about what the > future might > be, with what is presently the case, and with what sufficient evidence > indicates has a good chance of being the case in the future. Brain > plasticity is the "hot" thing these days, tons of research coming > out, but > aside from showing that the brain is not a static organ, and that > it can > undergo modifications -- in complex networks of ways -- due to > reactions to > external experiences or to how such experiences are experienced, > little else > is certain about how "plastic" the brain is or how it really works. > Our lack > of knowledge is replaced by hyperactive theorizing and speculation > -- which > is fine... that leads to experiments and tests, and actual > knowledge is > gained thereby. But on the popular front, people and generalists > tend to run > with the penumbras of speculation as if those are the facts. Think > of all > the "groundbreaking" announcements one hears on the news about some > new > medical breakthrough, which, when you get through the journalistic > hype, > usually turns out to be a very mundane laboratory result that -- if > it holds > up with subsequent experimentation -- may contribute in some way, > years down > the road, to a cure for cancer or diabetes or whatever because it > may have > some noticeable affect on some micro-anatomical process that some > believe > plays a role in cancer, diabetes, etc. Gamblers call this kind of > thing > "long shot." Well the present in not the 60's and actual science is not Disneyland. The state of the art is already sufficient to ascertain whatever is there is to know about human hardware: both time-of-flight PET and fMRI are present realties and the next several generations of MRI and PET are already available at the research level. It's silly to invoke the past or some imagined advancement in science that's coming unless you weren't really familiar with what's out there, for one. And secondly there's nothing new about kleshavarana, obliteration of negative patterns, these are thousands of years old. Whether of not we have a science capable of grokking what's going on is somewhat moot, since contemplatives know that negative patterns can be eliminated and have known that for a long, long time. What it may take is appropriate subjects being examined across time and then controls learning the same meditative techniques across time to see if the results are replicable. This is already well under way. If it were the 1970's or even 1980's your 'the future is coming' lament might hold some validity, but really it just makes you sound like a religious professor who's out of touch with science. > > >> Well, let's look at my original comment then: >> >> "I would suspect the aforementioned example would be the exception >> rather than the rule. > > I suspect your suspicion is unfounded. There is a lot of anger, > etc., in the > Tibetan community, about many things (and not just among the > youth). Let's > do a rigorous poll and get out of the suspicion business. Well let's be clear here, I'm not talking about the Tibetan community in general. Tibetan refugees crossing the Himalaya aren't human counterparts of the residents of Krypton, some superhuman race and the descendants of Jor-El simply because the come from magical Tibet. There may only be a few ever coming across with such capacities I'm speaking of. Such states as samadhi are still relatively rare in long- term contemplative. Sadhana is not a magical bullet. A good indicator of whether or not contemplative approaches to human well-being are sufficient and valid is whether or not insurance companies reimburse for their use--and that's already happening. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Apr 8 08:07:15 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:07:15 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] monks, meditation and trauma References: <56312.76.119.65.166.1238879095.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu><005501c9b767$29b8a110$2101a8c0@Dan><5B418F83-81E2-4142-9762-231C89429376@adelphia.net><017d01c9b78d$80176b60$2101a8c0@Dan><01c201c9b79c$f5b327b0$2101a8c0@Dan><021001c9b7b6$4be15800$2101a8c0@Dan> <6A38A97A-0EC9-4E87-87ED-FDA30048CE33@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <0ac801c9b853$528b5870$2101a8c0@Dan> Hi Steve, > It's silly to invoke the past or some imagined advancement in science > that's coming unless you weren't really familiar with what's out > there, It's arrogant to think "we" "now" are so much more enlightened about such matters than were our predecessors, or, as this sort of self-aggrandizing blindness is usually indicated, as ignoring the past when trying to understand the present. Every generation has that conceit. That's one of the things we learn by looking at Tomorrowland or history in general. We certainly have a lot more data and methods for collecting data than we had 20 or 40 or 100 years ago, but our neural processors (our brains and minds) have not advanced much in that time, and we make the same stupid mistakes, and process the data into the same reductive categories and alternatives (sive Nagarjuna). >If it > were the 1970's or even 1980's your 'the future is coming' lament > might hold some validity, but really it just makes you sound like a > religious professor who's out of touch with science. Au contraire -- your cheerleading sounds like someone steeped in the secondary, pop version of what is currently underway in the sciences. In the actual research papers that are published, and in discussions with the people actually doing such work, there is a keen understanding of the theoretical, tentative, barely initiated nature of such work. Great excitement because of great possibilities ("possibilities" means potential acquisition and achievements in the future), mixed with a sense that a very limited range of things have been subjected to serious experimentation as yet, but since there is a great deal of experimentation on those limited range of things (the hippocampus is one brain area subjected to a lot of research and speculation) our notions of those limited things are getting somewhat clearer, or at least our speculations are becoming better grounded in empirical data. Want to know where to start gathering primary data, rather than predigested hype? Check http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/short/fj.07-9492LSFv1 then go to PubMed http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ > Well let's be clear here, I'm not talking about the Tibetan community > in general.[...] > There may only be a few ever coming across with such capacities I'm > speaking of. Since you originally claimed that what now we may think of as "normal" Tibetans (or "the Tibetan community in general") were the exception, not the rule, it seems you have reversed yourself here. Since you like to quote yourself, here is what you said: "I would suspect the aforementioned example would be the exception rather than the rule." You have made clear that "aforementioned" in this sentence refers to the Tibetan community, or the refugee community (do you count Tibetans born outside Tibet as "refugees"?). Your reversal means we now seem to be in agreement. Have a nice day. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Wed Apr 8 09:09:49 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:09:49 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] For Himalayan/Tibetan art lovers Message-ID: <2E7C16173DC74262B0D2CC7B693C81F9@OPTIPLEX> LA CR?ATION ARTISTIQUE FACE AUX CONTRAINTES POLITIQUES ET RELIGIEUSES DE L'HIM?LAYA ? L'ASIE CENTRALE DE L'ANTIQUIT? ? NOS JOURS http://seechac.org/colloque/ Impressive conference, papers, and all. If only........... Joanna K. From tccahill at loyno.edu Wed Apr 8 13:10:52 2009 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (tccahill) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:10:52 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vietnamese Buddhism in the US (Louisiana) Message-ID: <49dcf6bc.59.1141d2.12901@loyno.edu> Hi folks! One article I came across on-line can be found at- www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/Articles_Essays/offeringskingsbuddha.html It's no dissertation, of course, but it has some swell photos! best, Tim From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 18:21:15 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Tusita Heavens Questions Message-ID: <554258.88016.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, ? I have a few doctrinal questions regarding the Tusita heavens.? ? Supposedly, the ?Buddhas who still have to be born on Earth one more time in order to burn off their very last residual karma dwell in the Tusita heavens.? So then: ? (a) Are the Tusita-dwellers Buddhas in the full sense of the word, or Buddhas-to-be?? From a Mahayana perspective they wouldn?t be Bodhisattvas, because supposedly Bodhisattvas have already burned off their karma and return voluntarily and altruistically until all sentient beings are saved?right? ? (b) Would the Tusita heavens be Maitreya?s residence as well?? This would mean that Maitreya is burning off his/her last karma in preparation for birth as a Buddha. ? (c) If the Pure Lotus Land is the celestial realm of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, how do the Tusita heavens fit in with this?? ? (d) The Deva realm in the Wheel of Life houses happy, carefree Devas taking it easy on long vacations.? Once their good karma runs out, plop!? Down they go to another realm.? Where do the Tusita heavens fit in with the six realms in the wheel of life and with Buddhist cosmology in general? ? Many thanks, Katherine Masis ? ? From sfeite at adelphia.net Wed Apr 8 19:09:19 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:09:19 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Results of the Shamatha Project Message-ID: <9747E73D-4FE4-4373-B06F-DAF41AA3EC97@adelphia.net> After over a year of analyzing data, it looks like the results of the Shamatha Project will be announced with HHDL at Mind and Life 18, in Dharamsala. The good news is we can follow it on the web: http://www.mindandlife.org/blog/dharamsala/ Over the next five days, for five and a half hours a day, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and 10 scientists, philosophers, scholars and contemplatives from North America, Europe and India will sit together in an intimate dialogue entitled: Mind and Life XVIII: Attention, Memory and Mind: A Synergy of Psychological, Neuroscientific, and Contemplative Perspectives. Mind and Life staff members are blogging from the event. Please visit the blog regularly for updates as it unfolds this week: www.mindandlife.org/blog . You are welcome to post comments, share the blog with others, sign up for RSS feeds which will alert you to new blog updates, and create a link from your web site to the blog. This historic meeting is the 18th in a series of international science dialogues that have been organized by the Mind and Life Institute, www.mindandlife.org , which was co-founded by the Dalai Lama in 1987. From very modest beginnings, the Mind and Life Institute has become a world leading organization, stimulating the scientific research on the effects of meditation and contemplative practice on the mind and brain and in the prevention and treatment of disease. These dialogues have also contributed toward a deep engagement between modern science and the world's living contemplative traditions, especially Buddhism. Future Mind and Life dialogues are planned for Washington DC in October, 2009. Please visit the event web site at www.EducatingWorldCitizens.org ; Zurich, Switzerland in April 2010 and New Delhi in November 2010. From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 19:32:20 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:32:20 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Tusita Heavens Questions In-Reply-To: <554258.88016.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <554258.88016.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Katherine, On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Katherine Masis wrote: > Dear List, > > I have a few doctrinal questions regarding the Tusita heavens. > > Supposedly, the Buddhas who still have to be born on Earth one more time > in order to burn off their very last residual karma dwell in the Tusita > heavens. So then: > (a) Are the Tusita-dwellers Buddhas in the full sense of the word, or > Buddhas-to-be? From a Mahayana perspective they wouldn?t be Bodhisattvas, > because supposedly Bodhisattvas have already burned off their karma and > return voluntarily and altruistically until all sentient beings are > saved?right? > Maitreya (Pali Metteyya) in Tusita is apparenrly a late story. Metteyya is only mentioned in the Pali Canon in the Cakkavatti Sihanada Sutta. There are at least two penultimate "last lives" of our Buddha Gautama: one as Vessantara and the other as Santusita deva in Tusita. It is possible that he was Vessantara before becoming Santusita. That is, if we take all Jatakas as actually historical past lives of the Buddha, and not sijmply as didactic folk stories adopted by the Buddhists and Buddhified. The last ten life are great literary works of Buddhist masters. This same pattern is used to fit Metteyya. So it is best to take this as a post-Buddha story invented in the Maha Vihara in Sri Lanka maybe. Anyway, Metteyya in Tusita is still a Bodhisatta, not a Buddha yet. > (b) Would the Tusita heavens be Maitreya?s residence as well? This would > mean that Maitreya is burning off his/her last karma in preparation for > birth as a Buddha. > We could say that. But this sounds deterministic and Mahayanist, that is, a docetic sort of Buddha, a nirmanakaya, for example. I would prefer to think of the Buddha as the most highly evolved being during a certain historical time period. So whether he is reborn in one of the heavens is immaterial, or at best mythical (in the mythology sense). People love stories, so stories are told (neyy'attha approach). > (c) If the Pure Lotus Land is the celestial realm of the Buddhas and > Bodhisattvas, how do the Tusita heavens fit in with this? > As far as I understand the available sutras, Sukhavati is not a historical dimension. In fact, one of the earliest Amitabha Sutras teaches the 4 smrtyupasthana. See *Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra by Lokaksema and Paul Harrison, Tr. (with Surangama Samadhi Sutra by Kumarajiva and John Mc Rae, Tr.) Numata Center for Buddhist Translation and Research, Hardcover, 94 pages*] Harrison has also written an excellent journal article on this. Sukhavati I think serves: (1) as a palpable symbolic or mythical description of what nirvana can be in our perceivable and linguistic terms. (2) it serves as a Buddha mandala for an elaborate inspiring (pasadiniya nimitta) meditation, which can serve as a basis for other meditation as taught in the Satipatthana Sutta or Smrtyupasthana Sutra. What Sukhavati evolved into in due course in another story. > (d) The Deva realm in the Wheel of Life houses happy, carefree Devas taking > it easy on long vacations. Once their good karma runs out, plop! Down they > go to another realm. Where do the Tusita heavens fit in with the six realms > in the wheel of life and with Buddhist cosmology in general? > The Tusita heaven in still within the sense-world, just "above" Tavatimsa, which is just "above" the Four Great Kings' realm, which is the lowest of the sense-world heavens. For details, see Rupert Gethin, "The Foundation of Buddhism," 1998: 116 f. There are of course other opinions, too. With metta, Piya Tan > > Many thanks, > Katherine Masis > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 20:14:23 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 19:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Tusita Heavens Questions Message-ID: <879077.26795.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi, Piya Tan ? Many thanks for your full reply.??? ? Katherine ? From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Apr 9 00:48:35 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 02:48:35 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Cmabodian memory References: <879077.26795.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0d2401c9b8df$34ff1580$2101a8c0@Dan> I recently mentioned the Khmer Rouge and the impact of its aftermath on Cambodian society. Today an article appearing in the NYTimes provides a new wrinkle. The younger generation is largely ignorant of what happened, and disbelieve their grandparents' accounts, or simply don't want to know about it. {quote} "Some older people get so upset at their children for not believing that they say, 'I wish the Khmer Rouge time would happen again; then you'd believe it,' " Mr. Ty Leap said. {unquote} Very curious social-psychological processes at play here. "As much as 70 percent of Cambodia's population is under the age of 30, and four out of five members of this young generation know little or nothing about the Khmer Rouge years, according to a survey last fall by the Human Rights Center at the University of California, Berkeley." more details at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/world/asia/08cambo.htm Is this practicing compassion or avidya? Dan From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 9 09:20:58 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:20:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Cmabodian memory In-Reply-To: <0d2401c9b8df$34ff1580$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <879077.26795.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <0d2401c9b8df$34ff1580$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Obviously, the Cambodian government has been complicit in this process of historical unknowing, since former KR men have been serving in the government. Look how long it has taken to bring what's left of the KR to legal justice? What's the education system like? I suspect it's practically defunct so far as education about history and other necessary subjects is concerned. This country was so utterly crushed, tortured and demoralised by the Pol Pot regime that although the adults who went through it remember what they survived, IMO-- based on views of a colleague who worked for several years on the Thai border with Cambodian refugees-- the whole country older than 30 must be under the effects of PTSD. The sangha has been relegated to marginality or self-chosen marginality, as well. They have no influence on Cambodian ethics and morality. Today, Cambodia is the ultimate child and women trafficking country of SE Asia. Back in the seventies, Bangladesh was the basket-case country so far as economics went; today it's Cambodia for every possible reason, not just economics. Nothing strange about their social-psychological processes! Joanna K. ======================= I recently mentioned the Khmer Rouge and the impact of its aftermath on Cambodian society. Today an article appearing in the NYTimes provides a new wrinkle. The younger generation is largely ignorant of what happened, and disbelieve their grandparents' accounts, or simply don't want to know about it. {quote} "Some older people get so upset at their children for not believing that they say, 'I wish the Khmer Rouge time would happen again; then you'd believe it,' " Mr. Ty Leap said. {unquote} Very curious social-psychological processes at play here. "As much as 70 percent of Cambodia's population is under the age of 30, and four out of five members of this young generation know little or nothing about the Khmer Rouge years, according to a survey last fall by the Human Rights Center at the University of California, Berkeley." more details at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/world/asia/08cambo.htm Is this practicing compassion or avidya? Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 9 09:31:46 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:31:46 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] State of the Buddhst arts/antiques in Vietnam Message-ID: <43DF587FD5EC438394DC02115ADBEAC5@OPTIPLEX> Money-madness has overcome Buddhism in most of SE Asia today. To protect temples, how about mastiffs and armed guards? Each temple with a flock of geese, to sound the warning? (They'd probably be caught and eaten with a few days.) Joanna K. http://english.vietnamnet.vn/reports/2009/04/840118/ Excerpts: ...Some relics were installed with horn-alarm systems, such as But Thap Pagoda in Hanoi, but these systems were quickly destroyed by rats. When rats came, the systems howled noisily, but when thieves came to steal statues, they didn't work. ...Relics in Vietnam have been opened to all visitors for centuries. They have open-air structures to welcome every visitor. Temples and pagodas don't have fences or anything to protect them, so accidentally, antiques there have become fried fish exposed to hungry cats. Quang Huc Temple in Ba Vi district, Hanoi, is one of the largest, oldest and most beautiful temples in Vietnam. Covered by ancient trees, the temple is located near a vast field, without any fence, enabling thieves to freely "collect" antiques. The temple had a very beautiful pair of ancient cranes of up to 4.5m high but one night, they were stolen. The temple lost the holy cranes which were there for several hundred years. Police officers went to investigate but they didn't find any clue. Local residents, thus, prevented thefts by binding all worshipping objects to iron chains and hiding some in warehouses. Mrs. Oanh, the temple's manager, said that whenever the village opens a festival, three young men are chosen to break the chains, which often takes them a whole day, to free worshipping objects. The village gave priority to protecting the pair of turtles which carried the lost cranes. The turtles were also kept in the warehouse but one day, thieves broke into the warehouse and stole the turtles. Old villagers were wringing their hands and didn't know what to do. Do they have to sleep at the temple to protect antiques? They decided to buy more iron chains to chain the remaining antiques and patrol the temple every night. But they still worry. Thefts [thieves] go by car to steal antiques Dong Vien Temple is located in the neighboring commune of Quang Huc temple. This relic is famous for reliefs, which are printed in textbooks. Ignoring three to four rounds of fences and special protection measures, thieves broke in to take the invaluable doors with famous reliefs to a truck. When villagers came to the temple, they only saw the smoke from the truck. A most beautiful communal temple, Tay Dang, even lost its altar. Cau Cuong Temple has lost 11 ancient documents, Dong Vien Temple lost its ancient doors, Cao Pagoda lost a Buddha statue, Mong Phu Temple lost ancient documents, stone young lions and bronze incense-burners and Mia Pagoda lost its best statues. After these break-ins, Dong Vien Temple is protected by a pack of dogs. Other temples have built fences. In Vinh Phuc province, according to a statistic released by the Vietnam News Agency, within four months, the province lost up to 1,000 ancient Buddha statues, 37 ancient documents, four ancient cranes, and hundreds of valuable objects of hundreds of years old, including palanquins, incense burners, altars, potteries, and others. One pagoda lost 31 statues at the same time. Another temple lost a truckload of antiques, including two palanquins and 11 giant halberds. With "black antique markets" open everywhere, thieves receive orders for antiques. When antiques are purchased at the price of treasure, old villages can't protect worshipping objects. The "steel hand" of the state is needed to protect relics. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Apr 11 10:23:44 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:23:44 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: ;sa;svat. Was Eternalism In-Reply-To: <76114.51937.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <700A4496A0EC44928B4B452D69CFE19F@OPTIPLEX> <76114.51937.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96276F8BBF314372B8B7E3FE78A09D95@OPTIPLEX> Thanks for further on this fascinating topic. I'm giving up, but took in everything suggested. Speaking of Aajivikas, didn't the Buddha debate with one or two of them? Refraining from action is also a Jain idea, isn't it? It would be fun to write a detective story based on a philologer doing detective work on some etymology, and then (of course) suddenly finding a purloined safe stashed in among the dusty treatises. But who'd read it? No blood, no buyers. Best, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jayarava Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:15 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] FW: ;sa;svat. Was Eternalism Hi Joanna I think Richard has signed off to go back to his lucrative book contract, but he did comment on Ashok's explanation in an earlier post. Having thought about it a bit more I don't see how ?a??yas can be related to ?a?vat. Though it does suggest an adjective ?a? meaning 'numerous', that is not in the dictionaries. The suffix -?yas is added to adjectival stems to make comparatives. Are you even allowed stems in -?? I think who ever said that we have to just treat it as a word is probably right. Incidentally "eternal" can be traced back to the IE root 'i', which occurs in Sanskrit - 3rd person present indicative: eti. It comes into English via Latin ?vum, and is related to words like age, aeon. The sassata belief seems to arise from seeing many lifetimes or many world ages in meditation. That is, one sees in a vision a large number of recurrences of rebirth/redeath or creation/destruction of the universe (what a vision that must be!), and concludes that they go on repeating forever. Where the Buddha's vision is different is that he sees an escape from the recycling. The version of rebirth in which an ?tman comes back again and again *without end* is a primitive one. It seems to match one of the versions of redeath in the first chapter of the B?had?ranyka Upani?ad. Later of course even the Brahmins accepted the idea of mok?a. Did I mention in my post about Bronkhorst that he thinks that the idea of an ?tman providing the continuity between lives came from the ?jivakas? But he also says that the ?jivakas believed in mok?a - although one could not speed it along, one could only keep the deadline from being extended by refraining from action. So the idea of an endless cycle of rebirth/redeath of an ?tman seems to be unique to the Brahmins of that period - or at least associated with some people, probably Brahmins, who composed an oral tradition, two different versions of which, possibly based on an ur-text but more likely to have emerged out of two oral lineages, have survived from an unknown period which may or may not have preceded the Buddha (if there even was a Buddha). We don't actually know anything, we just make up plausible stories. The wisdom of no escape? Anyway it become clear that the reason sassatadi???i is problematic is that it denies the possibility of ending the cycle of rebirths. Yours in happy pedantry. Jayarava _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Apr 13 14:01:51 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:01:51 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA Message-ID: <200904131401.51588.rhayes@unm.edu> From: Jayarava On Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:15 AM, Jayarava wrote: > I think Richard has signed off to go back to his lucrative book contract, If I'm the referent of the name used in the sentence cited above, I would love to know more about the lucrative book contract mentioned in the same sentence. I could use some lucre about now. (By the way, does lucre come in any flavor other than filthy? If there is some clean lucre, I'll have some of that, please.) Meanwhile, I have two more non-lucrative writing commitments to finish, after which I'll think about signing back on to buddha-l. I got back from Vancouver yesterday after attending the annual meetings of the Pacific Division of the American Philosophical Association. There were several excellent panels on Asian philosophy, including papers on Buddhist philosophy. (Buddha-l veteran Ashok Aklujkar drove several of us around Vancouver and pointed out all the things we might have seen if it had been a sunny day. We thus came to know about Vancouver through ??bdapram??a.) Talk about buddha-l at the APA was incessant, most probably because it was also beginningless. It's always good to see something an?di showing up at the APA. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jmp at peavler.org Tue Apr 14 07:12:06 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:12:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: <200904131401.51588.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200904131401.51588.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54645A27-6A58-4F1E-A3CB-1C3193207B9C@peavler.org> On Apr 13, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > From: Jayarava > On Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:15 AM, Jayarava wrote: >> >> There were > several excellent panels on Asian philosophy, including papers on > Buddhist > philosophy. I have switched from reading about all that Asian philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jayarava at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 13:00:54 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: <54645A27-6A58-4F1E-A3CB-1C3193207B9C@peavler.org> Message-ID: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: > I have switched from reading about all that Asian > philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? JR From jmp at peavler.org Tue Apr 14 17:30:40 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:30:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? > > JR > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow church. The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. I think. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:51:29 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:51:29 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: <1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> Message-ID: Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label HInayana, originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of the established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed monks). But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not Mahayana. In fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label than the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad labelling. The Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term vis-a-vis their grander siblings. The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, three point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana means "big business" in many cases. A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is facing mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty (sic) in connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the top honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know what to think. Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of this surreal episode. The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. PIya Tan On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian > >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? > > > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? > > > > JR > > > > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow church. > The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. I > think. > > Jim Peavler > jmp at peavler.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Tue Apr 14 19:27:06 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:27:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com><1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> Message-ID: What at first amazed me the 2 times I visited Thailand (mostly in the north) was the Mahayana invasion, especially Kwan Yin statues and devotions in major Theravada temple precincts, and so on. As you say, Piya, ordinary people began to think hard about how the "laziness" of the Theravada monastics did little to help their fortunes. My guess is that Mahayana suits contemporary industrial capitalist society better than the older Buddhism of the Theravada. In the contemporary economy there are only winners and losers. Rarely is even a local subsistence economy found that resembles pre-capitalist economies based on fate--one year up, another year down, according to weather and other cosmic events. Now, one perforce must gamble that one can be a winner, and praying for benefactions from a goddess helps people to feel they have some control. Luck replaces fate. There IS a difference. Fate, unlike luck, has no presiding deity, it's an aspect of the universe or the cosmos. (That fate is often wrongly conflated with karma, by some individuals, doesn't apply.) This "reading" of the situation you describe has nothing to do with Mahayana in past ages (in China, for ex.), where people's cravings were focused on other goals. I refer only to the invasion, as it were, of the Theravada countries by Mahayana deities and ideas. Best, Joanna =================== On Behalf Of Piya Tan Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:51 PM Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label HInayana, originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of the established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed monks). But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not Mahayana. In fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label than the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad labelling. The Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term vis-a-vis their grander siblings. The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, three point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana means "big business" in many cases. A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is facing mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty (sic) in connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the top honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know what to think. Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of this surreal episode. The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. PIya Tan From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Tue Apr 14 21:23:26 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:23:26 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com><1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> Message-ID: Like you say Piya: a finger pointing outwards means 4 pointing back. To be fair, just look at the charms and talisman business that Thai monks are doing, esp. the big advertisements in the Chinese tabloid papers here. Bad apples are everywhere. Weng-Fai > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:51 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA > > Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label > HInayana, > originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of the > established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed monks). > But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. > > So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not Mahayana. > In > fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label than > the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. > > In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad labelling. > The > Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term > vis-a-vis their grander siblings. > > The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, > three > point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana means > "big business" in many cases. > > A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is > facing > mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty (sic) > in > connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are > pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the top > honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know what to > think. > > Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of this > surreal episode. > > The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a > better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. > > PIya Tan > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > > > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian > > >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? > > > > > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? > > > > > > JR > > > > > > > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow church. > > The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. I > > think. > > > > Jim Peavler > > jmp at peavler.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:58:53 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:58:53 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> Message-ID: I only have two hand, Weng Fai. Maybe if I have Bodhisattva hands, I could point to more. Anyway thanks for pointing out more of the shadows. I agree with what you say of Thai magical Buddhism, and there are many more. Looks like we (that's the royal we) are the only good guy/s left (thumbs under armpits), and my thumbs are hurting. Piya Tan 2009/4/15 Weng-Fai Wong > Like you say Piya: a finger pointing outwards means 4 pointing back. To be > fair, just look at the charms and talisman business that Thai monks are > doing, esp. the big advertisements in the Chinese tabloid papers here. > > Bad apples are everywhere. > > Weng-Fai > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:51 AM > > To: Buddhist discussion forum > > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA > > > > Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label > > HInayana, > > originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of the > > established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed > monks). > > But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. > > > > So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not Mahayana. > > In > > fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label than > > the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. > > > > In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad labelling. > > The > > Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term > > vis-a-vis their grander siblings. > > > > The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, > > three > > point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana means > > "big business" in many cases. > > > > A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is > > facing > > mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty (sic) > > in > > connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are > > pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the top > > honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know what > to > > think. > > > > Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of this > > surreal episode. > > > > The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a > > better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. > > > > PIya Tan > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > > > > > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian > > > >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? > > > > > > > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? > > > > > > > > JR > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow church. > > > The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. I > > > think. > > > > > > Jim Peavler > > > jmp at peavler.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > buddha-l mailing list > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Minding Centre > > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > > Singapore 650644 > > Tel: 8211 0879 > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Wed Apr 15 10:56:21 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:56:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Some academic food for thought? Message-ID: This piece is short, and witty. http://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/the_education_of_oronte_churm /tibetan_book_of_the_adjunct JK From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 13:04:14 2009 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Hinayanaists unite (?) and Kashyapa question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <740009.39392.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hello all, .... in part, responding to today's buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 15 ... I am surprised that someone calls himself a Hinayanist, as it seemed up until now quite a straw-man position that no one ever held. It is clearly as we know an insult term. It does not mean smaller in a neutral sense (culayana?) but abandoned, inferior, etc. So why take on such a label? Contrarian instincts? That said, I have been trying to track down the story of Kashyana (Pali, Kassapa) coming to enlightenment/awakening by being shown a flower, in a famous story. I see it quite at odds with the Theravadan understanding on when Kassapa aka Mahakassapa/Mahakashyapa came to be a stream-entrant and came to be an arahat (the latter related to his mother's admonitions??? hehehe). The furthest back I have been able to track the flower-holding story down is to a little work said to be by Bodhidharma (in Chinese), Xuemailun, where Kashyapa is mentioned as the only one to "get it." As for the explicit story itself, I find it in two texts of the eleventh century CE (1000s), and then in later works... Questions for anyone: 1. Are there any Indic sources for this story (and if so from what age/time)? 2. What is the earliest recounting of this flower-demonstration teaching (in Chinese, or another language)? Thank you, everyone. Mitchell G. ========== Homepage (updated 6 April 09): http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa See also http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 13:04:14 2009 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Hinayanaists unite (?) and Kashyapa question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <740009.39392.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hello all, .... in part, responding to today's buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 15 ... I am surprised that someone calls himself a Hinayanist, as it seemed up until now quite a straw-man position that no one ever held. It is clearly as we know an insult term. It does not mean smaller in a neutral sense (culayana?) but abandoned, inferior, etc. So why take on such a label? Contrarian instincts? That said, I have been trying to track down the story of Kashyana (Pali, Kassapa) coming to enlightenment/awakening by being shown a flower, in a famous story. I see it quite at odds with the Theravadan understanding on when Kassapa aka Mahakassapa/Mahakashyapa came to be a stream-entrant and came to be an arahat (the latter related to his mother's admonitions??? hehehe). The furthest back I have been able to track the flower-holding story down is to a little work said to be by Bodhidharma (in Chinese), Xuemailun, where Kashyapa is mentioned as the only one to "get it." As for the explicit story itself, I find it in two texts of the eleventh century CE (1000s), and then in later works... Questions for anyone: 1. Are there any Indic sources for this story (and if so from what age/time)? 2. What is the earliest recounting of this flower-demonstration teaching (in Chinese, or another language)? Thank you, everyone. Mitchell G. ========== Homepage (updated 6 April 09): http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa See also http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Apr 15 22:09:14 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:09:14 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com><1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> Message-ID: <6ACF5C96674A4ED0B751B422DA57B7F7@comp.nus.edu.sg> More Mahayanist keeping with the times that will make Piya flip :) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7996813.stm Weng-Fai > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:59 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA > > I only have two hand, Weng Fai. Maybe if I have Bodhisattva hands, I could > point to more. Anyway thanks for pointing out more of the shadows. > > I agree with what you say of Thai magical Buddhism, and there are many > more. > Looks like we (that's the royal we) are the only good guy/s left (thumbs > under armpits), and my thumbs are hurting. > > Piya Tan > > > 2009/4/15 Weng-Fai Wong > > > Like you say Piya: a finger pointing outwards means 4 pointing back. To > be > > fair, just look at the charms and talisman business that Thai monks are > > doing, esp. the big advertisements in the Chinese tabloid papers here. > > > > Bad apples are everywhere. > > > > Weng-Fai > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > > > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:51 AM > > > To: Buddhist discussion forum > > > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA > > > > > > Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label > > > HInayana, > > > originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of > the > > > established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed > > monks). > > > But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. > > > > > > So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not > Mahayana. > > > In > > > fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label > than > > > the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. > > > > > > In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad labelling. > > > The > > > Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term > > > vis-a-vis their grander siblings. > > > > > > The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, > > > three > > > point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana > means > > > "big business" in many cases. > > > > > > A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is > > > facing > > > mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty > (sic) > > > in > > > connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are > > > pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the > top > > > honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know > what > > to > > > think. > > > > > > Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of > this > > > surreal episode. > > > > > > The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a > > > better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. > > > > > > PIya Tan > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian > > > > >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? > > > > > > > > > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? > > > > > > > > > > JR > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow > church. > > > > The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. > I > > > > think. > > > > > > > > Jim Peavler > > > > jmp at peavler.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > buddha-l mailing list > > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > The Minding Centre > > > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > > > Singapore 650644 > > > Tel: 8211 0879 > > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > > > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > buddha-l mailing list > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 22:55:46 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:55:46 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> <6ACF5C96674A4ED0B751B422DA57B7F7@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Weng Fai, Interesting that you don't flip about such things. But don't get me wrong, but I love music. It's that I do not want to be construed as encouraging monastics to fall from their Vinaya. Some years back, when Hong Choon was still abbot of PKS, there was a young lively monk called Kong Hian who appeared in the Sunday Times with a guitar. He disrobed or was disrobed after the abbot died, and was not welcomed back at the temple (not sure what happened). He got himself ordained in Theravada robes using the name Mahavira, and I was told he drives around in a Mercedes, has a temple of his own, and goes to gambling houses. He was caught and warned against returning, but he is quietly back. Oh yes I'm told that he tries to get boys to sleep with him too. It would be interesting to see what happens to this new singing sensation in China in due course. Being silent when we should speak is karmically accountable, too. There are bad monastics because there are good Buddhist who do not speak up. Or we rather wait until the law catches up with them. Piya Tan > 2009/4/16 Weng-Fai Wong >> >> More Mahayanist keeping with the times that will make Piya flip :) >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7996813.stm >> >> Weng-Fai >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:59 AM >> > To: Buddhist discussion forum >> > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA >> > >> > I only have two hand, Weng Fai. Maybe if I have Bodhisattva hands, I could >> > point to more. Anyway thanks for pointing out more of the shadows. >> > >> > I agree with what you say of Thai magical Buddhism, and there are many >> > more. >> > Looks like we (that's the royal we) are the only good guy/s left (thumbs >> > under armpits), and my thumbs are hurting. >> > >> > Piya Tan >> > >> > >> > 2009/4/15 Weng-Fai Wong >> > >> > > Like you say Piya: a finger pointing outwards means 4 pointing back. To >> > be >> > > fair, just look at the charms and talisman business that Thai monks are >> > > doing, esp. the big advertisements in the Chinese tabloid papers here. >> > > >> > > Bad apples are everywhere. >> > > >> > > Weng-Fai >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> > > > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:51 AM >> > > > To: Buddhist discussion forum >> > > > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA >> > > > >> > > > Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label >> > > > HInayana, >> > > > originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of >> > the >> > > > established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed >> > > monks). >> > > > But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. >> > > > >> > > > So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not >> > Mahayana. >> > > > In >> > > > fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label >> > than >> > > > the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. >> > > > >> > > > In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad >> labelling. >> > > > The >> > > > Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term >> > > > vis-a-vis their grander siblings. >> > > > >> > > > The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, >> > > > three >> > > > point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana >> > means >> > > > "big business" in many cases. >> > > > >> > > > A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is >> > > > facing >> > > > mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty >> > (sic) >> > > > in >> > > > connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are >> > > > pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the >> > top >> > > > honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know >> > what >> > > to >> > > > think. >> > > > >> > > > Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of >> > this >> > > > surreal episode. >> > > > >> > > > The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a >> > > > better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. >> > > > >> > > > PIya Tan >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian >> > > > > >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > JR >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow >> > church. >> > > > > The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. >> > I >> > > > > think. >> > > > > >> > > > > Jim Peavler >> > > > > jmp at peavler.org >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > buddha-l mailing list >> > > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > The Minding Centre >> > > > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) >> > > > Singapore 650644 >> > > > Tel: 8211 0879 >> > > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com >> > > > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > buddha-l mailing list >> > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > buddha-l mailing list >> > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > The Minding Centre >> > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) >> > Singapore 650644 >> > Tel: 8211 0879 >> > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com >> > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > buddha-l mailing list >> > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From shian at kmspks.org Wed Apr 15 23:07:01 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:07:01 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA In-Reply-To: <197c917695409927a9f72cbaa844ad62a60ff08d@localhost> References: <449572.21752.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1D052A5C-8893-47B6-A6BF-7D54814B76EA@peavler.org> <6ACF5C96674A4ED0B751B422DA57B7F7@comp.nus.edu.sg> <197c917695409927a9f72cbaa844ad62a60ff08d@localhost> Message-ID: <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3230D44721F@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> Reminds me of this... If a [practising] Bodhisattva acts in such a manner [which harms other Buddhists for personal advantage], he is no different from a worm in a lion's body, eating away at the lion's flesh. This is not something a worm living outside the lion can do. Likewise, only disciples of the Buddhas can bring down the Dharma - no externalist or demon can do so. - Brahma Net Sutra The lion is the fiercest of animals, and when he roars all the other beasts flee. In the same way, people who have taken the precepts are likened to a lion; no other beings will bother them. However, just as worms that live in the lion's body dare to feed on the lion's flesh, so too, disciples within Buddhism can undermine the entire system. Buddhist disciples themselves are capable of destroying the Dharma, more so than the people outside Buddhism. - Master Yen-p'ei -----Original Message----- From: Piya Tan [mailto:dharmafarer at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 16 April, 2009 12:56 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA Weng Fai, Interesting that you don't flip about such things. But don't get me wrong, but I love music. It's that I do not want to be construed as encouraging monastics to fall from their Vinaya. Some years back, when Hong Choon was still abbot of PKS, there was a young lively monk called Kong Hian who appeared in the Sunday Times with a guitar. He disrobed or was disrobed after the abbot died, and was not welcomed back at the temple (not sure what happened). He got himself ordained in Theravada robes using the name Mahavira, and I was told he drives around in a Mercedes, has a temple of his own, and goes to gambling houses. He was caught and warned against returning, but he is quietly back. Oh yes I'm told that he tries to get boys to sleep with him too. It would be interesting to see what happens to this new singing sensation in China in due course. Being silent when we should speak is karmically accountable, too. There are bad monastics because there are good Buddhist who do not speak up. Or we rather wait until the law catches up with them. Piya Tan > 2009/4/16 Weng-Fai Wong >> >> More Mahayanist keeping with the times that will make Piya flip :) >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7996813.stm >> >> Weng-Fai >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:59 AM >> > To: Buddhist discussion forum >> > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA >> > >> > I only have two hand, Weng Fai. Maybe if I have Bodhisattva hands, I could >> > point to more. Anyway thanks for pointing out more of the shadows. >> > >> > I agree with what you say of Thai magical Buddhism, and there are many >> > more. >> > Looks like we (that's the royal we) are the only good guy/s left (thumbs >> > under armpits), and my thumbs are hurting. >> > >> > Piya Tan >> > >> > >> > 2009/4/15 Weng-Fai Wong >> > >> > > Like you say Piya: a finger pointing outwards means 4 pointing back. To >> > be >> > > fair, just look at the charms and talisman business that Thai monks are >> > > doing, esp. the big advertisements in the Chinese tabloid papers here. >> > > >> > > Bad apples are everywhere. >> > > >> > > Weng-Fai >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> > > > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:51 AM >> > > > To: Buddhist discussion forum >> > > > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhism at the APA >> > > > >> > > > Some desperate or arrogant Mahayanists long ago invented the label >> > > > HInayana, >> > > > originally with good intentions to highlight the "lazy Buddhism" of >> > the >> > > > established Buddhist coenobites (settled non-meditating and moneyed >> > > monks). >> > > > But labels like "jesuit: can become double-edged. >> > > > >> > > > So Hinayana in due course became finger-pointing at what is not >> > Mahayana. >> > > > In >> > > > fact, more Mahayanists today are embarrassed with the Hinayana label >> > than >> > > > the intended "inferior" siblings themselves. >> > > > >> > > > In other words, the Mahayanists are reaping the karma of bad >> labelling. >> > > > The >> > > > Hinayanists generally do not mind referring themselves using the term >> > > > vis-a-vis their grander siblings. >> > > > >> > > > The Mahayanists know ultimately that when two fingers point at others, >> > > > three >> > > > point back at them. And this is not good for business. And Mahayana >> > means >> > > > "big business" in many cases. >> > > > >> > > > A local Mahayana monk, Mingyi (Goh Kah Heng), a Gold Card holder, is >> > > > facing >> > > > mutiple criminal charges for mismanagement of funds and dishonesty >> > (sic) >> > > > in >> > > > connection with a hospital he is running. Most Buddhists here are >> > > > pathologically silent, some in denial, some enjoying the moment (the >> > top >> > > > honchos do not see eye to eye), and many others simply do not know >> > what >> > > to >> > > > think. >> > > > >> > > > Narrow minded Hinayanists like myself feel as if we are not part of >> > this >> > > > surreal episode. >> > > > >> > > > The brighter side is that the younger Buddhists are working hard for a >> > > > better future despite our terribly dysfunctional family. >> > > > >> > > > PIya Tan >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jayarava wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Jim Peavler wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> I have switched from reading about all that Asian >> > > > > >> philosophy to reading David Hume. Will become a Humanitarian? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > And if I read P?li will I become a P?liamentarian? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > JR >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Yes, I believe that would be correct. That would be the narrow >> > church. >> > > > > The wide church (probably Latitudinarian) would be empaliamentarian. >> > I >> > > > > think. >> > > > > >> > > > > Jim Peavler >> > > > > jmp at peavler.org >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > buddha-l mailing list >> > > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > The Minding Centre >> > > > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) >> > > > Singapore 650644 >> > > > Tel: 8211 0879 >> > > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com >> > > > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > buddha-l mailing list >> > > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > buddha-l mailing list >> > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > The Minding Centre >> > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) >> > Singapore 650644 >> > Tel: 8211 0879 >> > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com >> > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > buddha-l mailing list >> > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4012 (20090416) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. Email message - is OK Email message - is OK http://www.eset.com From rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com Thu Apr 16 12:04:25 2009 From: rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com (Bob Zeuschner) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:04:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question In-Reply-To: <740009.39392.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <740009.39392.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E77329.5080605@roadrunner.com> Hi Mitchell -- Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. As far as I know, the "Flower Sermon" is the invention of Ho-tse Shen-hui, an 8th century student of Hui-neng. Shen-hui invented much of Ch'an history, especially the mythical connection of Ch'an to India. I hope this helps. Bob Zeuschner Dept. of Philosophy Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > Hello all, > > The furthest back I have been able to track the flower-holding story down > is to a little work said to be by Bodhidharma (in Chinese), Xuemailun, where > Kashyapa is mentioned as the only one to "get it." As for the explicit story > itself, I find it in two texts of the eleventh century CE (1000s), and then in > later works... > > Questions for anyone: > 1. Are there any Indic sources for this story (and if so from what age/time)? > 2. What is the earliest recounting of this flower-demonstration teaching (in > Chinese, or another language)? > > Thank you, everyone. > > Mitchell G. > ========== From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:17:14 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:17:14 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? Message-ID: -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu Apr 16 22:23:26 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:23:26 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B0FE30D7A4D41F29CEA82D1ECE34AAC@comp.nus.edu.sg> Ohmigosh! You having a breakdown, Piya? :) Weng Fai > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:17 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:25:40 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:25:40 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? Message-ID: I'm not sure how my recent Buddha-L emails are now gone from my browser. In fact I'm unable to access my normal browser and using the basic HTML version (slow). Is it possible that someone, a vengeful bodhisattva (?), has accessed by system and excised my recent emails. I hope I am forgiven for all my nasty truth statements, and have my emails back. They are all I have that are real in this false Saha world. May you be well and happy no matter what. Piya Tan -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:27:09 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:27:09 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? In-Reply-To: <3B0FE30D7A4D41F29CEA82D1ECE34AAC@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <3B0FE30D7A4D41F29CEA82D1ECE34AAC@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Makes you happy right, Weng Fai? Okay here's a breakdown for you then, enjoy. On 4/17/09, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Ohmigosh! You having a breakdown, Piya? :) > > Weng Fai > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:17 PM >> To: Buddhist discussion forum >> Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? >> >> -- >> The Minding Centre >> Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) >> Singapore 650644 >> Tel: 8211 0879 >> Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com >> Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:29:31 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:29:31 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? In-Reply-To: References: <3B0FE30D7A4D41F29CEA82D1ECE34AAC@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: My full "breakdown" message is here below: I'm not sure how my recent Buddha-L emails are now gone from my browser. In fact I'm unable to access my normal browser and using the basic HTML version (slow). Is it possible that someone, a vengeful bodhisattva (?), has accessed by system and excised my recent emails. I hope I am forgiven for all my nasty truth statements, and have my emails back. They are all I have that are real in this false Saha world. May you be well and happy no matter what. Piya Tan On 4/17/09, Piya Tan wrote: > Makes you happy right, Weng Fai? > > Okay here's a breakdown for you then, enjoy. > > On 4/17/09, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: >> Ohmigosh! You having a breakdown, Piya? :) >> >> Weng Fai >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >>> bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:17 PM >>> To: Buddhist discussion forum >>> Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? >>> >>> -- >>> The Minding Centre >>> Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) >>> Singapore 650644 >>> Tel: 8211 0879 >>> Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com >>> Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 03:06:53 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:06:53 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question In-Reply-To: <49E77329.5080605@roadrunner.com> References: <740009.39392.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49E77329.5080605@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Dear Mitchell, Shen-hui is one of the darkest shadows of Chinese Buddhism, indeed, in the history of Buddhism. One of my favourite writers on Shenhui is John McRae. You will find details in the biblio in my write-up on "How Buddhism Became Chinese" here; http://pali.house.googlepages.com/suttadiscoveryvol40b Best wishes, Piya Tan On 4/17/09, Bob Zeuschner wrote: > Hi Mitchell -- > Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. > As far as I know, the "Flower Sermon" is the invention of Ho-tse > Shen-hui, an 8th century student of Hui-neng. > Shen-hui invented much of Ch'an history, especially the mythical > connection of Ch'an to India. > I hope this helps. > Bob Zeuschner > Dept. of Philosophy > > > > Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> The furthest back I have been able to track the flower-holding story down >> is to a little work said to be by Bodhidharma (in Chinese), Xuemailun, >> where >> Kashyapa is mentioned as the only one to "get it." As for the explicit >> story >> itself, I find it in two texts of the eleventh century CE (1000s), and >> then in >> later works... >> >> Questions for anyone: >> 1. Are there any Indic sources for this story (and if so from what >> age/time)? >> 2. What is the earliest recounting of this flower-demonstration teaching >> (in >> Chinese, or another language)? >> >> Thank you, everyone. >> >> Mitchell G. >> ========== > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 17 10:23:02 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:23:02 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Breakdown? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0069CE818B93470F9101C086F523E185@OPTIPLEX> Piya, Could it be a problerm with your server? Joanna ------------------------ I'm not sure how my recent Buddha-L emails are now gone from my browser. In fact I'm unable to access my normal browser and using the basic HTML version (slow). Is it possible that someone, a vengeful bodhisattva (?), has accessed by system and excised my recent emails. I hope I am forgiven for all my nasty truth statements, and have my emails back. They are all I have that are real in this false Saha world. May you be well and happy no matter what. Piya Tan -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 08:48:02 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:48:02 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question In-Reply-To: References: <740009.39392.qm@web63305.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49E77329.5080605@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Dear Bob, You mentioned Shenhui as the source of the Kasyapa and the flower story. From my limited research notes, I found this The first version of the story to make explicit what was only implicitly drawn in the Ti?nsh?ng gu?ngd?ng l? was the D?f?n ti?nw?ng w?n f?ju?y? j?ng ?????????? (?The Scripture on the Heavenly Lord Mah?,?brahm? Asking the Buddha About His Doubt?). According to the D?f?n ti?nw?ng w?n f?ju?y? j?ng version of the story, as Shakyamuni sat before the assembly holding the lotus-blossom given him by brahmin, Ka?yapa, without saying a word, broke into a smile. The Buddha then proclaimed, ?I possess the treasury of the true Dharma-eye, the wondrous mind of nirvana, miraculous Dharma-methods born of the formlessness of true form, not established on words and letters, a special transmission outside the scriptures, etc.? and went on to entrust it to Ka?yapa. Reading: ?Mah?k??yapa?s smile: Silent transmission and the kung-an (koan) Tradition,? in Stephen Heine & Dale S Wright, The Koan, 2000: 75-109. What other sources is there on origin of the story (esp in relation to Shenhui)? Thanks & best wishes, Piya Tan On 4/17/09, Piya Tan wrote: > Dear Mitchell, > > Shen-hui is one of the darkest shadows of Chinese Buddhism, indeed, in > the history of Buddhism. > > One of my favourite writers on Shenhui is John McRae. You will find > details in the biblio in my write-up on "How Buddhism Became Chinese" > here; > > http://pali.house.googlepages.com/suttadiscoveryvol40b > > Best wishes, > > Piya Tan > > > On 4/17/09, Bob Zeuschner wrote: >> Hi Mitchell -- >> Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. >> As far as I know, the "Flower Sermon" is the invention of Ho-tse >> Shen-hui, an 8th century student of Hui-neng. >> Shen-hui invented much of Ch'an history, especially the mythical >> connection of Ch'an to India. >> I hope this helps. >> Bob Zeuschner >> Dept. of Philosophy >> >> >> >> Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> >>> The furthest back I have been able to track the flower-holding story >>> down >>> is to a little work said to be by Bodhidharma (in Chinese), Xuemailun, >>> where >>> Kashyapa is mentioned as the only one to "get it." As for the explicit >>> story >>> itself, I find it in two texts of the eleventh century CE (1000s), and >>> then in >>> later works... >>> >>> Questions for anyone: >>> 1. Are there any Indic sources for this story (and if so from what >>> age/time)? >>> 2. What is the earliest recounting of this flower-demonstration teaching >>> (in >>> Chinese, or another language)? >>> >>> Thank you, everyone. >>> >>> Mitchell G. >>> ========== >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) > Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 12:22:47 2009 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question (Bob and Piya) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <99865.26105.qm@web63302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hello Bob and Piya, Thank you for the replies and information here. As for Shenhui and John McRae (combining your two mentions), I see in Seeing through Zen (p. 55) that Shenhui mentions Kashyapa but not the flower demonstrating story. And in Andy Ferguson's Zen's Chinese Heritage (pp. 57ff.), I see a little bit on Ho-tse (Heze in Pinyin), but again nothing on Kashyapa and the flower. Did you write anything on this topic, or is anything written, tracing the story back to Shenhui? Piya: may your links to the internet and your emails be reinstituted easily and either mundanely or miraculously through the intervention of the good forces of the universe. Mitchell G. ========== Homepage (updated 17 April 09): http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa See also http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html --- On Fri, 4/17/09, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 17 From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 12:30:38 2009 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question (Piya Tan) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <484091.26255.qm@web63302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hello Piya and all, I am trying to view your posting and have set the Character Encoding option to a large variety of settings. Could you tell me which one to use, or type out those titles in "emailese"? Esp.: re the passages: the Ti?nsh?ng gu?ngd?ng l? was the D?f?n ti?nw?ng w?n f?ju?y? j?ng ?????????? (?The Scripture on the Heavenly Lord Mah?,?brahm? Asking the Buddha About His Doubt?). According to the D?f?n ti?nw?ng w?n f?ju?y? j?ng version of the story, ... Reading: ?Mah?k??yapa?s smile: Silent transmission and the kung-an (koan) Tradition,? in Stephen Heine & Dale S Wright, The Koan, 2000:75-109. ... What other sources is there on origin of the story (esp in relation to Shenhui)? Thanks & best wishes, Piya Tan Mitchell G. ========== Homepage (updated 17 April 09): http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa See also http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html --- On Sat, 4/18/09, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com wrote: buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 18 From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Apr 18 13:40:19 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:40:19 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question (Piya Tan) References: <484091.26255.qm@web63302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201c9c05d$82114070$2101a8c0@Dan> > Hello Piya and all, > I am trying to view your posting and have set the Character Encoding option to > a large variety of settings. Mitchell, the message was in utf-8 unicode setting, and displayed perfectly on my computer. If you tried that setting and it still didn't display, then you need to install a decent font (the message also included the Chinese characters of the title; most computers and browsers today can handle that effortlessly). Good luck, Dan From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 17:50:08 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:50:08 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question (Bob and Piya) In-Reply-To: <99865.26105.qm@web63302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <99865.26105.qm@web63302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Mitchell, [I've removed the attachment, as it did not clear the Buddha-L Excise Dept.] I've attached the excerpt you asked for above. The whole chapter of same is here: http://pali.house.googlepages.com/40b.5Transmissionoutsidethescripture.pdf The bibliography: http://pali.house.googlepages.com/40b.8Biblio.pdf All the above can be found on http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com, but you have to look for them. With metta, Piya Tan On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 2:22 AM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > Hello Bob and Piya, > Thank you for the replies and information here. As for Shenhui and > John McRae (combining your two mentions), I see in Seeing through > Zen (p. 55) that Shenhui mentions Kashyapa but not the flower > demonstrating story. And in Andy Ferguson's Zen's Chinese Heritage > (pp. 57ff.), I see a little bit on Ho-tse (Heze in Pinyin), but again nothing > on Kashyapa and the flower. Did you write anything on this topic, or > is anything written, tracing the story back to Shenhui? > Piya: may your links to the internet and your emails be reinstituted > easily and either mundanely or miraculously through the intervention > of the good forces of the universe. > Mitchell G. > ========== > > Homepage (updated 17 April 09): http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa > > See also http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com > buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 17 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 19:16:04 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:16:04 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Modern monk" Message-ID: [Mood: doloroso; for some: capricio] If you think you are not not making enough money, trying becoming a "modern monk": http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_365458.html The full article will be available later today online. Let me not say anything more lest modern day bodhisattvas hurl thunderbolts at me. Anyway, calluses have grown over the past wounds, so hit them, Shenhui! Piya Tan -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 17:39:18 2009 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Kashyapa question (Dan and Piya) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <344397.78941.qm@web63302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hello Dan and Piya and all, Thank you both for your kindness and thoughts. Dan: I checked and that is the current default setting on this browser. So maybe there is a problem with the way the browser handles the fonts involved. I'll try to forward the email to another browser and see what comes of it! Piya: I downloaded and have begun reading this pdf file (successfully). So thank you for taking the trouble of responding that way. Mitchell ========== Homepage (updated 17 April 09): http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa See also http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html --- On Sun, 4/19/09, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com wrote: End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19 From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 22:30:53 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:30:53 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Modern monk" In-Reply-To: <7E7F387850F14884B33B78E181430582@OPTIPLEX> References: <7E7F387850F14884B33B78E181430582@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: The best I can get is this mirror page: http://singaporeenquirer.sg/?p=3382 His wiki entry is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Ming_Yi Try googling "Mingyi 2009 credit cards" It would be great if someone who has a Straits Times internet account could post the article her to send it offline on request. Personally, I'm deeply saddened by this tartuffe's self-righteousness and lack of remorse. Many other here are deeply saddened, too. Piya Tan On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:53 AM, jkirk wrote: > > ?Dear Piya > > I wanted to read the Sunday article about the modern-day monk, > but it's gone. > Can you send me a link for it? I tried using the Search but got > nowhere. > > Thanks > Joanna > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 7:16 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: [Buddha-l] "Modern monk" > > [Mood: doloroso; for some: capricio] > > If you think you are not not making enough money, trying becoming > a "modern monk": > > http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STISt > ory_365458.html > > The full article will be available later today online. > > Let me not say anything more lest modern day bodhisattvas hurl > thunderbolts at me. Anyway, calluses have grown over the past > wounds, so hit them, Shenhui! > > Piya Tan > > > > -- > The Minding Centre > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 > Tel: 8211 0879 > Meditation courses & therapy: > http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Mon Apr 27 19:50:42 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:50:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] seeking comments on a book Message-ID: Has anyone read _The Open Road: The Global Journey of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama_, by Pico Iyer? Your comments? Thanks, Joanna From jmp at peavler.org Wed Apr 29 07:22:48 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (jmp at peavler.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:22:48 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] NYTimes.com: More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops Message-ID: <200904291322.n3TDMon1095890@ame2.swcp.com> This page was sent to you by: jmp at peavler.org. This is an interesting article in regard to recent polls etc. US | April 27, 2009 More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops By LAURIE GOODSTEIN Organized atheist groups liken their strategy to the gay-rights movement, which lifted off when members of a scorned minority went public. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html?emc=eta1 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company From jmp at peavler.org Wed Apr 29 07:37:15 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:37:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops References: <200904291322.n3TDMokd095889@ame2.swcp.com> Message-ID: <1D0A3C8A-4B2E-4D45-A2D6-67F609164094@peavler.org> > > This page was sent to you by: jmp at peavler.org: > > This is an interesting article in regard to recent polls etc. > > US | April 27, 2009 > More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops > By LAURIE GOODSTEIN > Organized atheist groups liken their strategy to the gay-rights > movement, which lifted off when members of a scorned minority went > public. > > > > > > 1. Op-Ed Contributor: End the University as We Know It > 2. The Caucus: Specter Switches Parties > 3. Personal Health: Paying a Price for Loving Red Meat > 4. A Tiny Hominid With No Place on the Family Tree > 5. Verizon Said to Be in Talks for the iPhone > > ? Go to Complete List > > > > > Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy > Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jkirk at spro.net Wed Apr 29 09:24:36 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:24:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] NYTimes.com: More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops In-Reply-To: <200904291322.n3TDMon1095890@ame2.swcp.com> References: <200904291322.n3TDMon1095890@ame2.swcp.com> Message-ID: <389C80D0DAF04E87AF3A11054F71C079@OPTIPLEX> This woman has what might be called a Buddhist attitude: _Loretta Haskell, the church musician, said: "I did struggle at one point as to whether or not I should be making music in churches, given my position on things. But at the same time I like using my music to move people, to give them comfort. And what I've found is, I am not one of the humanists who feels that religion is a bad thing."_ Joanna =========================== This page was sent to you by: jmp at peavler.org This is an interesting article in regard to recent polls etc. US | April 27, 2009 More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops By LAURIE GOODSTEIN Organized atheist groups liken their strategy to the gay-rights movement, which lifted off when members of a scorned minority went public. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html?emc=eta1 -