From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 00:17:02 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:17:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" Message-ID: <746049.6459.qm@web112612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Richard Hayes wrote: ?I wonder whether any academics recognize a similar dynamic over overcompensation in themselves.? ============================================= That could explain it, then.? I was under the impression that Lopez was (is) a scholar, but not a practitioner.? On page 4 of the Introduction to *Buddhism and Science*, he states: ? ?The authors of most books and articles about Buddhism and Science generally fall into one of several categories. Some are Asian Buddhist monks ? with some knowledge of Western science; some are Buddhist monks, or former Buddhist monks, of European or North American parentage, with some previous education ? or professional training in science; some are Asian scientists from Buddhist cultures who regard themselves as Buddhists; some are European or American scientists with at least a passing interest in Buddhism, an interest that may extend to practicing meditation and identifying themselves as Buddhists. I have none of these qualifications. I write as a historian of Buddhist thought and practice, with an interest in the processes by which what we today call ?Buddhism? has emerged in modernity.? ? In *Buddhism: The American Experience*, Charles Prebish says that about 25% of scholar-practitioners in academia admit to being practitioners, and that likely another 25% percent of scholars are in the closet about their practice.? I wonder about Western scholar-practitioners teaching in academia in historically Buddhist countries in Asia?do they feel the same pressure to be quiet about their practice or can they loosen up about it? ? ? Katherine Masis ? From gouin.me at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 01:35:15 2010 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:35:15 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: <18608_1262021751_4B38EC76_18608_62281_2_F414164B-1D8D-485F-9A95-9DED102E4923@unm.edu> <64B4C1F3-A761-48B9-A759-5C385C5B3082@unm.edu> <4B39B9F3.5090504@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: 2009/12/31 Richard Hayes > > > Although Quli's article raises quite a few problems (which several of you > have already pointed out), I do think she makes a valid point when she > observes that for Buddhists it is quite important to reflect on what counts > as legitimate Buddhism, but academics should not engage in this enterprise. > So while, say, a Rinzai Zen Buddhist might do well to think about whether > SGI, NKT, the FWBO and Stephen Batchelor are really presenting authentic > Buddhist teachings, academics should abstain for passing judgement on such > matters. > > One of my favourite statements is from Eva Dargyay, writing in 1988: 'The ethnographic details reported here should caution us against rushing to label one or the other activities or ideas as ?truly Buddhist? or ?non-Buddhist.? This would not only distort the facts, as such labels were never used by the people involved, but it would also jeopardize the validity of our findings. It is not the researcher?s business to define what constitutes true Buddhism and what constitutes a less authentic form of this religion if the Buddhists themselves feel they are genuine followers of their faith.' (Eva Dargyay. 1988. ?Buddhism in Adaptation: ancestor gods and their tantric counterparts in the religious life of Zanskar?, *History of Religions*, 28.2: 123-34; page 133) Margaret From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 1 02:49:00 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 04:49:00 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <18608_1262021751_4B38EC76_18608_62281_2_F414164B-1D8D-485F-9A95-9DED102E4923@unm.edu><64B4C1F3-A761-48B9-A759-5C385C5B3082@unm.edu><4B39B9F3.5090504@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002901ca8ac7$a5c81a40$2101a8c0@Dan> Margaret wrote: ----- One of my favourite statements is from Eva Dargyay, writing in 1988: 'The ethnographic details reported here should caution us against rushing to label one or the other activities or ideas as ?truly Buddhist? or ?non-Buddhist.? This would not only distort the facts, as such labels were never used by the people involved, but it would also jeopardize the validity of our findings. It is not the researcher?s business to define what constitutes true Buddhism and what constitutes a less authentic form of this religion if the Buddhists themselves feel they are genuine followers of their faith.' (Eva Dargyay. 1988. ?Buddhism in Adaptation: ancestor gods and their tantric counterparts in the religious life of Zanskar?, *History of Religions*, 28.2: 123-34; page 133) Margaret ---- Buddha-l does go in cycles -- this is an issue we have visited on numerous occasions. Dargay's generosity pretty much represented the sentiments of the field until Aum Shin Rikyo gassed the Tokyo subway and became murdered a number of judges while otherwise terrorizing the Matsumoto prefecture of Japan. Their claim to be Buddhists, given that their doctrines, etc., were so far afield from what other Buddhists engaged in, has led some to rethink that generosity. Similarly lots of new agers declared themselves Buddhists with highly distorted ideas of what that might mean. The loonies shouldn't get to define what a Buddhist is. Sectarian self-identification in East Asia is more complicated than one might imagine. An ethnographer, to the extent that s/he is engaging in descriptive ethnography, should not be in the business of sanctioning practitioners. Scholars and historians, on the other hand, are in a position to evaluate the extent to which current practices and claims are concordant with, or deviate from what was historically the case, and in some ways more accurately than the actual practitioners. I am not an ethnographer. Happy New Year. Dan From sugar.mathura at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 00:24:33 2010 From: sugar.mathura at gmail.com (Sugar Mathura) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:24:33 +0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <4B3D691A.6090804@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2D8E784F-23AB-4227-9361-540FC013A711@unm.edu> <4B3D691A.6090804@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <6a53f9950912312324s22e0c1cy7a604afc47d6744d@mail.gmail.com> *Happy New Year to all Buddha-l denizens,* *Wish all of you for **New Year, better life.* *Happiness, serenity, and peace in Dharma.* ** *All the Best,* *Sugar:)* On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Wishing everyone a very happy new year. May the new year and new decade > brings you more joy, success, and peace. > > May all beings be well and happy! > > Weng-Fai From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 1 10:12:18 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:12:18 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <6a53f9950912312324s22e0c1cy7a604afc47d6744d@mail.gmail.com> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2D8E784F-23AB-4227-9361-540FC013A711@unm.edu> <4B3D691A.6090804@comp.nus.edu.sg> <6a53f9950912312324s22e0c1cy7a604afc47d6744d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3E2CF2.3090206@xs4all.nl> Op 1-1-2010 8:24, Sugar Mathura schreef: > *Happy New Year to all Buddha-l denizens,* > *Wish all of you for **New Year, better life.* > *Happiness, serenity, and peace in Dharma.* > ** > *All the Best,* > *Sugar:)* > > May the blessings of Saint Josaphat rest upon you all! Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 1 10:29:36 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:29:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> Katherine Masis wrote: > > What puzzles me is that there are western scholars of Buddhism who seem to subtly disdain the entire field of study and practice, western as well as Asian. I?m thinking of Donald Lopez here. I?ve only read a couple of his articles plus one-and-a-half of his books (completed *Prisoners of Shangri-La* and am now reading *Buddhism and Science: A Guide for the Perplexed*). Am I the only one with that impression on this list? Don?t get me wrong?I think he?s an excellent historian of Buddhism. I?m just puzzled about what I perceive as an undercurrent of contempt in his writings. > I agree about Lopez' "contempt". And I also think that this contempt seriously undermines the value of his writings. Take "Prisoners of Shangrila", please. According to Robert A.F. Thurman "The book is fundamentally marred by the usual trademarks of a polemic: mere assertions paraded as evidence, confused distortions in reasoning, and an authorial pose of scholarly self-righteousness. Numerous specific passages throughout the book are simply erroneous: for example, 'Lama Govinda ... set up permanent residence in Sikkim' (61) (the Lama lived far away in Almora in India); 'In Tibet ... lay and state support for monks was less generous than in some Theravada countries' (174) (there has been no society more fully monasticized than Tibet in the whole world under any religion in any era) ...." The most damning thing that Thurman says, though, is this: "I was dismayed at the intensity of the resentment of the Tibetan people that leaps from every page and surprised by the unself-consciousness that gives that resentment such free reign. Most of all, I was saddened by his joining, however unwittingly, the apologists for China in Tibet." It's really too bad that Thurman's critique of Lopez is not freely available online! The full reference is: "Critical Reflections on Donals S. Lopez Jr.s Prisoners of Shangrila: Tibetan Buddhism and the West" by Robert A.F. Thurman, Journal of the American Academy of Religion 2001 69(1):191-202: http://jaar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/69/1/191 Curt From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 1 12:17:34 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:17:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <4B3E2CF2.3090206@xs4all.nl> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2D8E784F-23AB-4227-9361-540FC013A711@unm.edu> <4B3D691A.6090804@comp.nus.edu.sg><6a53f9950912312324s22e0c1cy7a604afc47d6744d@mail.gmail.com> <4B3E2CF2.3090206@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: May the blessings of Saint Josaphat rest upon you all! Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl _________________________ Bah, humbug! If we think 2010 will be different from 2009, think again~~~~~~~ Grumpily yours, JK From ralf.steckel at online.ms Fri Jan 1 12:21:05 2010 From: ralf.steckel at online.ms (Ralf Steckel) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 20:21:05 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" Message-ID: <1121367299@web.de> --- begin snip What puzzles me is that there are western scholars of Buddhism who seem to subtly disdain the entire field of study and practice, western as well as Asian. --- end snip Dear forum, practicing Buddhism would give every scholar of Buddhism the chance to have a direct and experimental access his or her field of study. So i'm a bit astonished that so few do. I can imagine that some scholars and scientists of different academic disciplines would be grateful if there still would exist a living tradition of their topic of interest. Just my thoughts, Ralf Steckel From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 1 12:37:34 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:37:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> It's really too bad that Thurman's critique of Lopez is not freely available online! The full reference is: "Critical Reflections on Donals S. Lopez Jr.s Prisoners of Shangrila: Tibetan Buddhism and the West" by Robert A.F. Thurman, Journal of the American Academy of Religion 2001 69(1):191-202: http://jaar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/69/1/191 Curt ============= Hi Curt, I read a few articles in his _Curators of the Buddha_, and found not contempt for scholars or for Buddhism of various kinds _per se_, but more for the period biases of some scholars, and also for sentimentality about Buddhism and its objects. But I might be off the mark --not sure, since I've not read the books just mentioned. In his book about Gendun Chophel, which I did read, there's no discernible contempt for his subject. He seemed to me to be more approving of Buddhists who heartily go against the grain, as compared to folks who (in his view) are unthinking (some meanies would say, knee-jerk) devotees. So, in Richard's term of over-compensation, I've noticed in myself and in some other folks I know a tendency to feel embarrassed by and therefore negative toward sentimentality when it comes to the "spiritual quest"......maybe Lopez is too. (One wonders, with that surname, if he might have been born a Roman Catholic. If so, might be some repercussions there, too.) Might you be able to make a pdf of it and post it to those of us who'd like to read Thurman's review? Thanks for noting the review, anyway. JK From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 1 13:18:36 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 21:18:36 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <1121367299@web.de> References: <1121367299@web.de> Message-ID: <4B3E589C.6080909@xs4all.nl> Op 1-1-2010 20:21, Ralf Steckel schreef: > --- begin snip > > What puzzles me is that there are western scholars of Buddhism who seem to subtly disdain the entire field of study and practice, western as well as Asian. > > --- end snip > > Dear forum, > > practicing Buddhism would give every scholar of Buddhism the chance to have a direct and experimental access his or her field of study. So i'm a bit astonished that so few do. I can imagine that some scholars and scientists of different academic disciplines would be grateful if there still would exist a living tradition of their topic of interest. > The French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu advises us here to look at the different rules of the different games and what is at stake. Buddhist traditions strive for stability of institutions and tradition certainly in these fast changing times. They accept different kind of pupils as pupils, but they are not happy with new expertise. So the master knows best and (s)he has the best knowledge no matter what scientists or philosophers say. If the master insists that the Buddha lived 3000 years ago that will be the truth. He has the social capital, the scientist wants the cultural capital. Buddhologists play the game of science, correcting and criticizing each other, now if one of them accepts a nonscientist as authority in the field all beit in his free time, it looks like treason. Another problem is that buddhology is the science of Buddhist texts and meditation has been claimed by psychologists as their field of study being something that happens in the brain. But perhaps thanks to discussions as this one the field of buddhology will change. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jmp at peavler.org Fri Jan 1 13:37:09 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 13:37:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] So much for that. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The announcement of the death of Buddha-l was apparently premature. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 14:04:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:04:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <30833ABA-F886-47AA-BADA-58567CC8D379@unm.edu> On Jan 1, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Take "Prisoners of Shangrila", please. One of the best books on Buddhism written in the past twenty years. > According to Robert A.F. Thurman > "The book is fundamentally marred by the usual trademarks of a polemic: > mere assertions paraded as evidence, confused distortions in reasoning, > and an authorial pose of scholarly self-righteousness. Interestingly enough, Thurman's attack on Lopez is flawed by exactly the features of which he criticizes Lopez. Many of those who saw Thurman denounce Lopez at the American Academy of Religion described it as a painfully embarrassing episode in which one highly regarded scholar overreacted to the work of another highly regarded scholar and delivered a series of completely unsubstantiated accusations. Trivialities were magnified into major issues. > The most damning thing that Thurman says, though, is this: "I was > dismayed at the intensity of the resentment of the Tibetan people that > leaps from every page and surprised by the unself-consciousness that > gives that resentment such free reign. Most of all, I was saddened by > his joining, however unwittingly, the apologists for China in Tibet." Of all the things Thurman said, this was seen as the most embarrassingly wide of the mark. Hardly anyone else saw Lopez's book as resentful in any sense of the word, nor was there seen any denigration of the Tibetan people. This careless accusation was Thurman at his very worst. > It's really too bad that Thurman's critique of Lopez is not freely > available online! It is freely available to academics. most of whom dismiss it as an unfortunate diatribe in which the reviewer lost control of himself and substituted vitriol for substance. But it's good to know that someone liked Thurman's review. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 14:14:56 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:14:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <1121367299@web.de> References: <1121367299@web.de> Message-ID: <8CE360DD-E70C-44FC-8D62-EB3F097FCC40@unm.edu> On Jan 1, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Ralf Steckel wrote: > practicing Buddhism would give every scholar of Buddhism the chance to have a direct and experimental access his or her field of study. So i'm a bit astonished that so few do. You may be relieved to know that it's false that few scholars of Buddhism have a direct and experimental relationship with their area of study. The vast majority do have such a relationship. I can think of only a few individual scholars who do not (or have not in the past) had such a relationship. There are some, especially in the United States, who do not publicize their relationship with what they study out of fear of being seen as proselytizers. In a country in which the prevalent educational policies are influenced by the wording of the separation of church and state, most people who have anything to do with religious studies at all are careful not to be perceived as advocating a particular religious tradition. They learn to keep their own religious convictions and practices at home or at their dojo (where, incidentally, they belong), not in the classroom. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 1 14:15:06 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 16:15:06 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <30833ABA-F886-47AA-BADA-58567CC8D379@unm.edu> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <30833ABA-F886-47AA-BADA-58567CC8D379@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B3E65DA.1080703@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > It is freely available to academics. most of whom dismiss it as an unfortunate diatribe in which the reviewer lost control of himself and substituted vitriol for substance. But it's good to know that someone liked Thurman's review. > This sounds like something from FOX News. Why not just state your own opinion and stand by it? If you wish to drag others down with you, then cite some sources. Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 14:23:50 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:23:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] So much for that. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Jim Peavler wrote: > The announcement of the death of Buddha-l was apparently premature. It has been said, probably falsely, that the purpose of holding a wake was to make sure a corpse was really dead and not just passed out from too much drink. (This was especially important in the day of goblets with high lead content, since lead and alcohol could have the effect of rendering a person unconscious for several days.) I think our idea to hold a wake to make sure buddha-l was really dead and not just playing 'possum was a wise one. Now that the corpse has sprung back to life and joined in the dancing, you and I can go drink ourselves into a stupor and perhaps debate on whether the fifth precept is really the teaching of the Buddha or an interpolation by some presbyterians from Kansas. Abstaining from intoxicants sounds to me like Protestant Buddhism if there ever was such a thing. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 14:40:35 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 14:40:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <4B3E65DA.1080703@cola.iges.org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <30833ABA-F886-47AA-BADA-58567CC8D379@unm.edu> <4B3E65DA.1080703@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Why not just state your own > opinion and stand by it? I don't have an opinion on the matter of Thurman's review, because I have never read it. I simply reported what I heard people saying about it moments after the panel in which he delivered it at the AAR was over. But I admit that hearsay is no substitute for scholarship. I falsely assumed you might be interested to know that not everyone agrees with your apparently positive assessment of Thurman's review. You want to hear me state an opinion? Here's one: I like Lopez's book, which I believe I did say, and which I now stand by. And I know it has been quite well received, Thurman's critique notwithstanding. Since you seem to take an interest in objectivity, why don't you go ask Dr Google to provide you with a list of all the reviews of "Prisoners of Shangri-la" and submit a fair and balanced report to the rest of us. Although I have no opinion of Thuerman's review of Lopez, I do have an opinion about one piece of Thurman's work that I have seen and used in classes. He gave opening remarks to the teachings of the Dalai Lama in a series of videotapes called The Four Noble truths. His introduction is so full of misinformation and misquotations that I learned to fast-forward past his introduction and and just get to the Dalai Lama's teachings. If he excoriates his colleagues for scholarly carelessness, it may do more to evoke such words as "pot" and "kettle" and "black" than to diminish the reputations of his colleagues. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From alex at chagchen.org Fri Jan 1 16:12:06 2010 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 10:12:06 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> I never did read "Prisoners of Shangri-La, so I can't comment directly. There is, however, a reason why I decided not to invest that much of my short life in it: the patronizing contempt that Lopez shows for his audience in the piece "7 things you didn't know about Tibet" (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493105.html). I am not a totally ignorant, stupid twerp, and am not drawn to reading a book by an author who assumes that I am. ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding Blog: Dang Zang From jmp at peavler.org Fri Jan 1 16:44:10 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 16:44:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] So much for that. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04321BC4-8C43-4F64-BBDB-C04356829434@peavler.org> We were supposed to abstain from intoxicants? On Jan 1, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > > I think our idea to hold a wake to make sure buddha-l was really dead and not just playing 'possum was a wise one. Now that the corpse has sprung back to life and joined in the dancing, you and I can go drink ourselves into a stupor and perhaps debate on whether the fifth precept is really the teaching of the Buddha or an interpolation by some presbyterians from Kansas. Abstaining from intoxicants sounds to me like Protestant Buddhism if there ever was such a thing. > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > rhayes at unm.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain." Bertrand Russell. From bankei at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 16:46:56 2010 From: bankei at gmail.com (Bankei) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 10:46:56 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> Message-ID: Hello Alex. I just read that short article you referred to and did not feel it came across as 'patronizing contempt' at all. Thanks for the link Bankei 2010/1/2 Alex Wilding > I never did read "Prisoners of Shangri-La, so I can't comment directly. > There is, however, a reason why I decided not to invest that much of my > short life in it: the patronizing contempt that Lopez shows for his > audience > in the piece "7 things you didn't know about Tibet" > (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493105.html). > I am not a totally ignorant, stupid twerp, and am not drawn to reading a > book by an author who assumes that I am. > > All the best > Alex Wilding > Blog: Dang Zang > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 1 17:48:41 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 19:48:41 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> Message-ID: <00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> > Hello Alex. > > I just read that short article you referred to and did not feel it came > across as 'patronizing contempt' at all. > > Thanks for the link > > Bankei Lopez is trying to play myth-buster. Thurman's objections are based on the idea that Tibet's mystique is a useful tool for eliciting support for Tibetan liberation from China, and undermining that mystique therefore has dire consequences for actual flesh-and-blood Tibetans, who rely on that support for hope. As a myth-buster, Lopez tries to sensationalize his supposed revelations (most are just common-place knowledge amongst scholars, if not all Western devotees). Into that, he mixes his own bag of questionable assertions. Let's take Alex's linked piece, on the 7 things you didn't know about Tibet. 1. Shangri-la is a made-up western name, possibly corruption of Shambhala. So? 2. The most wide-read book on Tibet is T. Lopsang Rampa's The Third Eye. I don't know if that quantitative claim is true (I confess to having read it back in my high school days -- always found it suspicious), but I know it still has its fans (including a Vietnamese monk friend who refuses to believe that it's a hoax). Are people still reading that tripe? It was understandable some decades ago when the available literature in English on Tibet was miniscule, but today, with Snow Lion, et al. pumping out Tibetophilic offerings at an alarming rate (and often questionable quality), why would anyone want to revert to Rampa's nonsense? 3. "Tibetans have never heard of the Tibetan Book of the Dead". Well, that's a bit of Madison Ave oversell. That's like saying New Yorkers have never heard of NY Pizza (since no one calls it that in NY). 4. Here's a Lopezism that most scholars I know have not found persuasive (Richard, you're our resident Skt grammarian -- I think you've already weighed in on this on buddha-l, here's a chance to revisit the issue). I quote Lopez: "Here is something for the initiated: The most famous of all Buddhist mantras, om mani padme hum, does not mean "the jewel in the lotus." It means instead, "O Jewel-Lotus." Nineteenth-century European scholars of Sanskrit misread a vocative ending as a locative ending, thus thinking that the jewel (mani) was in the lotus (padme)..." Richard, set us straight, but my grammar sources tell me that the vocative of padma is padma, and that padme is indeed a locative. This was supposed to be one of Lopez's big hermeneutic discoveries. I don't buy it. http://sanskrit.inria.fr/cgi-bin/sktdeclin?t=VH&q=padma&g=Mas&font=roma 5. "The most common Western name for Tibetan Buddhism, "Lamaism," is considered a disparaging term by Tibetans." This is a subject that has been recently discussed on buddha-l, and one of the facts that came into evidence was that whoever it was that found the term objectionable, that did not include Tibetans who, as was demonstrated, continue to use it themselves. 6. "Because Tibet never became a European colony, it remained-and for many, continues to remain-a land of mystery for the West." Oh?! That's the reason? How post-colonial of Lopez to notice that! 7. "Tibet was not a non-violent society, even after the Dalai Lamas assumed secular control in 1642." And he goes on to offer some important examples. This is the sort of myth-busting that will throw Richard into apoplexy (perhaps he will give us a demonstration of a Western scholar declaring the last five hundred years of Tibetan Buddhism to not be Buddhist, or to be a decadent misundertanding of Buddhism?). Reminder that _Buddhist Warfare_, ed. by Michael Jerryson and Mark Juergensmeyer -- http://tinyurl.com/yeyufef -- is now available. I've got my copy. Important reading for self-styled Western Buddhists. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 1 18:44:13 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 18:44:13 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] So much for that. In-Reply-To: <04321BC4-8C43-4F64-BBDB-C04356829434@peavler.org> References: <04321BC4-8C43-4F64-BBDB-C04356829434@peavler.org> Message-ID: <4D49C421D87348739EB4CF2BAC4ABA91@OPTIPLEX> On Behalf Of Jim Peavler We were supposed to abstain from intoxicants? On Jan 1, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > > I think our idea to hold a wake to make sure buddha-l was really dead and not just playing 'possum was a wise one. Now that the corpse has sprung back to life and joined in the dancing, you and I can go drink ourselves into a stupor and perhaps debate on whether the fifth precept is really the teaching of the Buddha or an interpolation by some presbyterians from Kansas. Abstaining from intoxicants sounds to me like Protestant Buddhism if there ever was such a thing. > > Richard Hayes ______________________________ haha. Now that reading of Protestant Buddhism I can go along with! But the Day of the Dead has long passed................. JK From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 1 18:45:51 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 18:45:51 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> Message-ID: <3962A9FE5084441F839B6D7F99DD6F3A@OPTIPLEX> Yikes--Lopez sounds neurotic! -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Alex Wilding Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 4:12 PM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" I never did read "Prisoners of Shangri-La, so I can't comment directly. There is, however, a reason why I decided not to invest that much of my short life in it: the patronizing contempt that Lopez shows for his audience in the piece "7 things you didn't know about Tibet" (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493105.html). I am not a totally ignorant, stupid twerp, and am not drawn to reading a book by an author who assumes that I am. ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding Blog: Dang Zang _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From richard.nance at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 19:02:41 2010 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:02:41 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> <00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Richard, set us straight, but my grammar sources tell me that the vocative > of padma is padma, and that padme is indeed a locative. Wrong Richard, I know -- and it's been a while since I've perused the book -- but as I recall, the compound is being read as a bahuvrIhi. Cf. the relevant vocative: http://sanskrit.inria.fr/cgi-bin/sktdeclin?t=VH&q=taaraa&g=Fem&font=roma Hope this helps, Richard N. (the other one) From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 19:10:19 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 18:10:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" Message-ID: <544236.37132.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have read and have?mixed feelings about Thurman's review of Lopez' *Prisoners of Shangri-La*, which I won't go into right now.? But here's?an interesting?paragraph from?it: ? "During our AAR panel, Lopez told a revealing anecdote, quite apropos of this irony. He was invited to do a National Public Radio show on his book. The interviewers told him he should expect a representative of 'the other side' to debate him during the show. He came to the studio, fully expecting to face a representative of the Chinese perspective. He was astonished that the producers had invited a representative of the Tibetan Government In Exile to debate with him. He thought he was on the Tibetan side and would face opposition from the Chinese; but the producers thought he was on the Chinese side and that the Tibetans should have the chance to voice their opposition! This perfectly exemplifies the contradiction between his intentions and his expressions that I am exposing in this critique." ? So that goes to show that there are quite a few of us out there who see some contempt in Lopez' writings.? Still I wonder,?why was he astonished?? Did he not see how he came across in his book? ? Katherine Masis From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 1 21:05:11 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 23:05:11 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> > Wrong Richard, I know -- and it's been a while since I've perused the > book -- but as I recall, the compound is being read as a bahuvrIhi. > Cf. the relevant vocative: Any Richard will do. Thanks for piping in. Two questions: Who says mani padme has to be read as a compound [it is a mantra, after all]? If it must be a compound, what recommends it be read as a bahuvrihi instead of a tatpurusa? Still unconvinced, Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 1 22:18:59 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 00:18:59 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> <00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> Not wanting to put anyone on the spot, or start the New Year with a boring recitation of grammatical complexities, let me point out that a somewhat detailed discussion can be found in Alexander Studholme - The Origins of Om Manipadme Hum: A Study of the Karandavyuha Sutra, which, with a little googling, you should be able to find in pdf format for a free download (not sure of the copyright status, so I won't complicitly provide any links). There, he addresses both of my questions, which were: >Two questions: Who says mani > padme has to be read as a compound [it is a mantra, after all]? If it must > be a compound, what recommends it be read as a bahuvrihi instead of a > tatpurusa? First, an explanation by the Dalai Lama that completely avoids the grammatical question (but tends to align itself with the "mani in the padma" approach, i.e., mani = upaya, padma = prajna. http://www.circle-of-light.com/Mantras/om-mantra.html Now that we got that out of the way, Studholme, putting aside the fact that it is a mantra and thus not susceptible to regular Skt rules, tries to tackle the four inner syllables as grammatical, doctrinal, and semantic issues. To the first question he insists mani padme must be a compound because mani (without -?, i.e., mani?) is not an acceptable nominative, ergo it must be treated as stem, ergo mani padme must be a compound manipadme. If one ignores the caveat of being a mantra, that makes sense. He states: "It has been popularly understood to refer to ?the jewel (mani-) in the lotus (-padme),? a phrase that has been taken, predominantly, as symbolic of the conjunction of the Buddhist coefficients of wisdom and compassion, of the union of male and female, and the appearance of a buddha (or bodhisattva) in the mind (or heart). But though padme may be correctly parsed as a masculine or neuter locative (the noun may be either gender), there appears to be no grammatical precedent for reading mani here as the nominative form, which would normally be mani?. according to the laws of classical Sanskrit, mani- is the stem form, making manipadme a compound noun." (p. 110) Next question, what sort of compound? Remarking that it is sufficiently ambiguous to have allowed a variety of interpretations to emerge, he examines several of them. One is precisely the option Lopez prefers. This is what he says: "A more promising approach might appear to consist in treating manipadme as a bahuvrihi, or ?exocentric,? compound, in which, as in the English expressions ?redhead,? or ?paperback,? the characteristics of a person or object can also be used as means of referring to the person or thing itself. Manipadme, here, could describe a ?jewel-lotus? (a ?lotus made of jewels?) or a ?jewel and lotus,? in the sense of someone or something who is, in some way, a ?jewel-lotus? or a ?jewel and lotus.? Interpretations of this sort have tended to view the compound as a vocative, directed towards a person who has the attributes of a ?jewel and a lotus.? This, occasionally, has been understood to be a means of addressing Avalokitesvara himself. However, that would be to treat manipadme as a masculine vocative, an extremely heterodox reading. In classical Sanskrit, the -e ending denotes the vocative only of nominal stems of all genders ending in -i or of feminine stems ending in -?. Manipadme might, then, be a mode of address to a female person Manipadm?, who bears the attributes of a ?jewel and lotus? or, even possibly, a ?jewel-lotus.? Who, then, might that person be? Manipadm?, it is argued, is the name of a female partner of Avalokitesvara. She might, it seems, be the personification of the six-syllable formula itself..." (pp. 110-111) After some further exploration into this possibility, rejecting on various grounds (historical, doctrinal, etc.), he considers the meaning and specific usages of lotus in early Mahayana literature. He says: "All these different connotations may be said to inform what is perhaps the most central usage of the symbol of the lotus in the Mah?y?na, the doctrine that the mode of entry into the pure lands of the buddhas is to appear seated in such a flower. In the Vimalakirtinirdesa Sutra, for instance, when Sakyamuni transforms this world into a buddhafield by touching the ground with his big toe, everyone in his assembly is said to be filled with wonder, ?each perceiving himself seated on a throne of jewelled lotuses (ratnapadmavyuh?sana).?82 The Saddharmapundarika states: ?And in the buddhafield where he is to be born, he shall appear by metamorphosis on a lotus of seven precious substances (saptaratnamaye padme), face-to-face with the tath?gata." This is padme as locative. But it's not a compound. We are then treated to several pages of uses, terms, phrases and compounds with lotus/padma. Eventually we come to this: "Finally, on two separate occasions, the K?randavyuha describes the goal of reaching Sukh?vat? in terms of being born or being seated ?in a lotus.? Those who bring to mind the name (n?madheyamanusmaranti) of Avalokitesvara are, at one point, said to go to Amit?bha?s pure land. There, they are said not to remember the suffering of dwelling in the womb (garbh?v?sadu?kham), for they are born ?in that lotus? (tasminneva padme j?yante). Next, Bali is told by Avalokitesvara that he will go to Sukh?vati, where, a ?lotus throne made of the seven jewels? (saptaratnamaya? padm?sana?) will be produced for him. Then, seating himself ?in the jewel lotus? (ratnapadme) in the presence of Amit?bha, he will listen to the K?randavyuha Sutra." (pp. 115-116) ratna, like mani, means jewel. Here we have the compound ratnapadme with -padme clearly locative (*in* the jewel lotus), though it is not the jewel (ratna) in the lotus, but a seat which is a jewel lotus. It is we, ourselves, who get to sit in it when and if... With some further discussion, he finally concludes: "The cumulative effect of all these examples is to show that the significance of the four middle syllables of the six-syllable mah?vidy? would have been quite obvious to anyone remotely familiar with the idiom of the Mah?y?na. The use of manipadme connects the paramahrdaya of Avalokitesvara with one of the central symbols of the Mah?y?na vision, the ?jewel-lotus,? or ?lotus made of jewels.? The expression should be parsed as a tatpurusa, or ?determinative,? compound in the (masculine or neuter) locative case, meaning ?in the jewel-lotus,? referring to the manner in which buddhas and bodhisattvas are said to be seated in these marvelous blooms and, in particular, to the manner in which more mundane beings are believed to appear in the pure land of the buddhas. Given the predominance, in the K?randavyuha and in the Mah?y?na in general, of the religious goal of the pure land of Amit?bha, it may be safely assumed that manipadme would have been quite naturally associated with the mode of the rebirth of human beings there." So manipadme is a tatpurusa after all. I guess we should start a list of 7 things Lopez doesn't know about Tibet, and make this item #1. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 23:25:24 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 23:25:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> Message-ID: <99E98C09-DE16-4F8F-97E7-B18F08B1D481@unm.edu> On Jan 1, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Alex Wilding wrote: > I never did read "Prisoners of Shangri-La, so I can't comment directly. > There is, however, a reason why I decided not to invest that much of my > short life in it If you are not averse to entertainment, you might nevertheless enjoy reading "Prisoners" for its entertainment value. It is enormously fun to read, but it also has quite a serious message. The message, I think, is that no one is particularly well served by delusion and illusions. There are times when one is better off being disillusioned. The romantic elements of the Tibetan mystique do not really serve the Tibetans well either, since they raise unrealistic expectations that can lead only to disappointment. As Lopez points out, the politically vulnerable Tibetans are hardly likely to be served well by the disappointment in them that is inevitable as people who had glorified them discover that they, like all peoples on the earth, have feet of clay. The book is completely benign in intention, and I cannot detect even a trace of any sort of contempt for anyone in Lopez's work. Add to that the fact that his work is well written and fun to read, and I think one might find that reading it is not a bad investment. At least consider treating yourself to the chapter called "The mantra." Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 23:26:48 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 23:26:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] So much for that. In-Reply-To: <04321BC4-8C43-4F64-BBDB-C04356829434@peavler.org> References: <04321BC4-8C43-4F64-BBDB-C04356829434@peavler.org> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Jim Peavler wrote: > We were supposed to abstain from intoxicants? There used to be a precept to that effect, but I think the people who wrote it were drunk. From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 1 23:43:27 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 23:43:27 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> <00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2010, at 9:05 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Two questions: Who says mani > padme has to be read as a compound [it is a mantra, after all]? The problem is that ma?i is a masculine noun, the nominative of which is manih. The mantra does not read "ma?i? padme" but "ma?ipadme." The traditional commentaries (according to Lopez) always took it is a feminine bahuvr?hi in the vocative. > If it must > be a compound, what recommends it be read as a bahuvrihi instead of a > tatpurusa? Could be a dvandva, I suppose. But that is not how commentators construed it. Whatever the case may be, it is clear that the mantra cannot possibly be translated "the jewel in the lotus." It may be utterly meaningless [it is a mantra, after all], but if that is the case, then it cannot mean "the jewel in the lotus." Richard (I'm not sure which one) From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 00:11:21 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 00:11:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> <00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> On Jan 1, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Now that we got that out of the way, Studholme, putting aside the fact that > it is a mantra and thus not susceptible to regular Skt rules Since when is it a fact that a mantra is not susceptible to regular Sanskrit rules? If a phrase does not follow regular Sanskrit rules, it is not Sanskrit. Now if the claim is that mantras need not be Sanskrit sentences but can be just sounds, then it would be silly to try to attach any meaning to the sounds at all. > So manipadme is a tatpurusa after all. It could be in theory, but it there is one very good reason to doubt that that's what it is in practice. It is a strange sentence that consists of nothing but tatpuru?a in the locative singular and nothing else. If it is a tatpuru?a, then it can only mean something like "in the lotus with, for, out of, belonging to or in the jewel" (depending on whether one takes it to be a third, fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh vibhakti tatpuru?a. None of those means the same as "the lotus is in the jewel." Lopez admits the mantra has puzzled commentators for years. No one would deny that. His point is that no one ever understood "om ma?ipadme h??" to mean "the jewel is in the lotus" until an Oxford professor with an overly active imagination claimed the mantra to have that meaning and suggested that it was a sexual metaphor consistent with left-handed tantra. What is interesting is how such a completely untenable interpretation could come to be regarded by so many as the "right" interpretation and how every Comparative Religions 101 professor has repeated that untenable interpretation as if it made some sense. It does not encourage one about the future of education. But what the hell, eh? Ninety-eight percent of the world wrongly regarded 2000 as the first year of the 21st century instead of the last year of the 20th, and all manner of television people who should have known better were calling 2010 the first year of a new decade, when it is clearly the last year of the decade that began with 2001, the first year of the 21st century. If television journalists can't even get the simple matters straight, why should Comparative Religion 101 professors be able to sort out what an obscure mantra is all about? Richard (any Richard will do) From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 00:15:34 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 02:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> > The traditional commentaries (according to Lopez) always took it is a > feminine bahuvr?hi in the vocative. That's a huge caveat. Apparenlty some Tib. comm. did that, but not all. (Cf. Studholme, p. 117, and endnote #104). He provides plenty of evidence that in India that was not how it was understood. >> If it must >> be a compound, what recommends it be read as a bahuvrihi instead of a >> tatpurusa? > > Could be a dvandva, I suppose. But that is not how commentators construed > it. Whatever the case may be, it is clear that the mantra cannot possibly > be translated "the jewel in the lotus." It may be utterly meaningless [it > is a mantra, after all], but if that is the case, then it cannot mean "the > jewel in the lotus." Studholme considers and rejects that possibility as well. He writes: "The possible readings of such a compound are, once again, numerous. It has been parsed as a nominative neuter dvandva, or ?co-ordinative,? compound, meaning ?jewel and lotus,? where the formula is understood to be an expression of a corresponding arrangement of buddhas, in which O?, Mani, Padme, and Hu? are each linked to individual buddhas. There are, it seems to me, three major drawbacks to this interpretation. In order to connect the formula to an orthodox fivefold scheme of buddhas, it becomes necessary to lengthen the formula by the arbitrary addition of the extra syllable Hrih (the associated bija, or ?seed syllable,? which is traditionally used as a symbol of the potentiality of Avalokitesvara or that from which the bodhisattva may manifest). It is also odd that some of these buddhas should be represented by a single syllable and some of them by a noun. Finally, it depicts the formula not as a particularly ?well fashioned? device, but rather, as something clumsily and convolutedly contrived." (p. 110) Note that the objection is not grammatical, but doctrinal coherency. Simply put, what type of compound it is cannot be solved by grammar alone (grammar only points to possible consequential semantic and doctrinal entailments, and one then has to decide which to embrace -- this is not an objective procedure, as hiding behind grammar would implly, but largely subjective and contextual. Here is the conclusion to his chapter on the "Meaning" of the mantra (pp. 117-118) --- In conclusion, it would be churlish to insist that such presentations of manipadme as the ?jewel in the lotus,? or as a vocative to ?the one with the jewel and the lotus? are nonsensical, even though, strictly speaking, they are semantically incorrect. Like the various correspondence schemes, the ?meaning? of Om Manipadme Hum is merely an explication of the function of the formula. In so far as these other ?meanings? are appropriate to a proper appreciation of this function and assist in ?the turning of the twelvefold wheel of Dharma,? they make sense. Nevertheless, the discovery of what would seem to be the original ?meaning? of the formula does beg the question of why it has been interpreted so differently throughout the ages. Already, for instance, in a ninth-century Tibetan grammatical treatise, Om Manipadme Hum is treated as an example of the Sanskrit vocative. Two reasons present themselves. The first is that the conception of the formula as a name of Avalokitesvara and the personification of the formula in female form would both tend to relate Om Manipadme Hum to the idea of calling upon a person, making the vocative interpretation an immediately attractive option from a very early stage. The second is that the Tibetans, the custodians of the formula for the last millennium, would be unlikely to be aware of the connection of Om Manipadme Hum with the idiom of the Mah?y?na sutras, due to the fact that these works would generally be read in Tibetan translation. Padme becomes pad ma?i nang du in Tibetan, which provokes no immediate association with Om Manipadme Hum. Notwithstanding all these difficulties, the original ?meaning? of Om Manipadme Hum does seem to have been kept alive in Tibetan minds despite, though not because of, any analysis of the ?meaning? of the formula. Instead, recitation of the six syllables has remained linked, in the collective consciousness, to the idea of rebirth in Sukh?vat? due to an appreciation of the close relationship between Avalokite?vara and Amit?bha. The indignation with which the French explorer and early Tibetologist Alexandra David-Neel berates the Tibetan people on this point is, in retrospect, ironic. She writes: Passing to the following words of the formula, mani padme means ?the jewel in the lotus.? Here we seem to find a meaning that is immediately intelligible, and yet the usual Tibetan interpretation takes no account whatsoever of this literal meaning, the majority of devotees being completely ignorant of it. The latter believes that the mechanical repetition of Aum mani padme hum! secures for them a happy birth in Nub dewa chen: the Occidental paradise of bliss. ---- Obladi oblada, Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 00:55:48 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 02:55:48 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> Message-ID: <011f01ca8b80$ffaca620$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard (whichever) wrote: > Since when is it a fact that a mantra is not susceptible to regular > Sanskrit rules? If a phrase does not follow regular Sanskrit rules, it is > not Sanskrit. Now if the claim is that mantras need not be Sanskrit > sentences but can be just sounds, then it would be silly to try to attach > any meaning to the sounds at all. I agree with all that. There are attendant issues emerging from this that concern me. First, putting aside the issue of mantras (and whatever exceptionalism we may or may not grant them), while we are on the topic of Oxford imaginations (and imaginations from similar haunts) hopelessly enmeshing our treatment of Buddhist materials from previous millennia, what becomes evident if one starts to examine actual old manuscripts, i.e., what the Buddhists (and others) of yore actually wrote and read, one finds all sorts of "irregularities" in their "Sanskrit". In some cases, such as some of the Gandharan mss., their variance is so great and pervasive, that we consider them a different language, today dubbed "Gandharan." But the more mss. one surveys, the more one finds "irregularities", some well known and also pervasive, such as bodhisatva instead of bodhisattva. These irregularities can occur in what otherwise appears to be sound Sanskrit usage (I have, e.g., seem Asanga's Skt described by some Indian Sanskritists as elegant, perfectly formed, etc., while others find it horrrendous, bordering on the barbarous -- the latter perhaps overly sensitive to such spelling issues, since Asanga's grammar is fairly standard). Ms. variants, which may appear consistently in a text, can affect the grammar. What sharp, astute, Oxford-influenced scholars do is assume the original must have been in pristine (i.e., panini-conformant) Sansrkit, and they go about creating "critical" texts where all the endemic variants are "corrected." Great for maintaining the illusion of a pristine Sanskrit, but not good enough to squelch entirely the debate whether to call the language of some Buddhist texts Buddhist-hybrid Sanskrit, or simply Prakrit (the latter is applied, without complaint, to many Jain texts). We might reserve "Sanskrit" for only those texts that are written in Paninian (or pass a proximity test of some sort), and find other names for the rest, or we might start to acknowledge that paninian is only one dialect of Sanskrit, which in the 1st millennia CE did not have a monopoly on the grammatical rules either (there was Candra's grammar, preferred by Buddhists, and others; not clear what the Kashmiris were up to at certain times re: grammatical innovations -- the Tibetans learned much of what they understood to be Skt grammar from the Kashmiris). Now, returning to mantras, as you know there is a long held traditional theory that mantras are not about the semantics but the sounds, and that meanings cannot be attached to them. Proper pronunciation, utterance, is more important than semantic analysis. That's what makes it a mantra and simply a recitation. Tibetans reciting Om manipadme hum are chanting in a foreign tongue, just as Westerners would be. May as well recite In Hoc Signo Vinces or Allah-hu akbar (though the Latin and Arabic do mean something). So if it is silly to try to attach meanings to mantras (and probably we could at least agree that there are mantras so obscure or "corrupt" that trying to make sense of them *is* silly), that doesn't preclude the fun one has inventing meanings. The Oxford professor, therefore, was in his own way very much participating in the tradition, and in fact devised a very ingenious decoding. The only "rule" he broke is that grammar should act as a constraint on the imagination, and he dipped his mani into the padma (wouldn't be the first would-be tantric to attempt that maneover) instead of being the manipadma: be the manipadma, sit/be born in your manipadma... >> So manipadme is a tatpurusa after all. > > It could be in theory, but it there is one very good reason to doubt that > that's what it is in practice. It is a strange sentence that consists of > nothing but tatpuru?a in the locative singular and nothing else. If it is > a tatpuru?a... Excellent. So, combining all that we've learned from all sources, we have eliminated bahuvrihi, tatpurusa, dvandva, and shown there is something unacceptable about each of the declension choices (vocative vs locative). See, isn't it fun doing something silly like trying to make sense of a mantra? Looking forward to a silly new year, Goo gooka choo, Dan From gouin.me at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 01:21:18 2010 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 09:21:18 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <30833ABA-F886-47AA-BADA-58567CC8D379@unm.edu> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <30833ABA-F886-47AA-BADA-58567CC8D379@unm.edu> Message-ID: 2010/1/1 Richard Hayes > [re "Prisoners of Shangrila"] > > > > It's really too bad that Thurman's critique of Lopez is not freely > > available online! > > It is freely available to academics. most of whom dismiss it as an > unfortunate diatribe in which the reviewer lost control of himself and > substituted vitriol for substance. But it's good to know that someone liked > Thurman's review. > > As I recall, Thurman's critique was part of a panel at the AAR on 'Prisoners'; the whole panel (the other participants were Tsering Shakya and David Germano) was published in JAAR 29.1 (March 2001) including Thurman's talk, AND Lopez's reply. There is also a review of 'Prisoners' in the 1998 'Tibet Journal' 23.4 (pp. 128-31), where the (Tibetan) author takes Lopez to task for being a coloniser himself, just in another way. Margaret From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 01:33:08 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:33:08 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2010, at 12:15 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Simply > put, what type of compound it is cannot be solved by grammar alone (grammar > only points to possible consequential semantic and doctrinal entailments, > and one then has to decide which to embrace -- this is not an objective > procedure, as hiding behind grammar would implly, but largely subjective and > contextual. No one is suggesting otherwise. No one I know of would claim that grammar alone can solve a problem. Most people I know, however, would say that a solution found in some other way must at least be grammatical to be worthy of consideration. > Passing to the following words of the formula, mani padme means ?the jewel > in the lotus.? Here we seem to find a meaning that is immediately > intelligible, Absolutely false. One cannot say that is the meaning at all (let alone an intelligible meaning), because it is grammatically unsound. There is simply no legitimate way to get that meaning out of those words. > and yet the usual Tibetan interpretation takes no account > whatsoever of this literal meaning, perhaps because there is no way to see that as the literal meaning; > the majority of devotees being > completely ignorant of it. Devotees are not ignorant of a meaning the phrase has. They are smart enough to avoid misconstruing the phrase and attributing to it a meaning it cannot possibly have. > The latter believes that the mechanical > repetition of Aum mani padme hum! secures for them a happy birth in Nub dewa > chen: the Occidental paradise of bliss. Who knows what anyone believes? Did Pew or Gallup take a poll of what devotees believe, or is this just another fantasy of a Comparative Religions 101 professor. I doubt reciting this or any other mantra has much of anything to do with belief at all. I reckon it's just a nervous habit that eventually evolves into an addiction, sort of like pledging allegiance to the flag at the beginning of a school day or singing the national anthem before a hockey game. some Richard or other From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 01:39:34 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:39:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <011f01ca8b80$ffaca620$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> <011f01ca8b80$ffaca620$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1A35C473-F540-4E57-B6A8-02D937D5497C@unm.edu> On Jan 2, 2010, at 12:55 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Excellent. So, combining all that we've learned from all sources, we have > eliminated bahuvrihi, tatpurusa, dvandva, and shown there is something > unacceptable about each of the declension choices (vocative vs locative). > See, isn't it fun doing something silly like trying to make sense of a > mantra? It's not particularly fun, but it may be useful to dispel common misconceptions about mantras when such misconceptions manifest themselves. > Looking forward to a silly new year, > Goo gooka choo, God almighty, Dan, can't you get anything right? The silly new year mantra is not "Go cook a Jew." It's "See the queer Quaker quakin' in the quagmire." Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 02:26:32 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 04:26:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <014101ca8b8d$ac3d2b60$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard, >> Passing to the following words of the formula, mani padme means ?the >> jewel >> in the lotus.? Here we seem to find a meaning that is immediately > >intelligible, >Absolutely false. The last paragraph was not Studholme's own explanation, but his quotation of Alexandra David-Neel. Perhaps my excerpts from his chapter were insufficient to indicate that he had already fully dispelled those ideas. His claim is that the formula manipadme has strong rebirth in the pure land connotations (I skipped the pages where he compiles that evidence -- again the book can be downloaded in pdf format for free). Hence he cites David-Neel precisely because she evinces agitation and disdain based on thinking she understands the mantra better than the practitioners, who all *mistakenly* think it is about rebirth in the western paradise. Studholme believes that is exactly what it originally meant, and the meaning has survived misguided Tibetan elitist exegesis as well as Western patronizing. The common folk knew exactly what it meant and what it was designed to do. Personally, to borrow an Arkansas expression, I have no dog in that fight. Since manipadme is some sort of nominal compound with no verb in sight (hum was not a verb, last I checked), do with it what you will. It's not a sentence, and according to some Skt grammarians meaning resides only in complete sentences, not words or letters. Dan From H.W.A.Blezer at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sat Jan 2 08:33:04 2010 From: H.W.A.Blezer at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Blezer, H.W.A.) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 16:33:04 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ERIK!! You have been told more than once now, JK does not like to read about Saint Josaphat! Behave, Henk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:17:34 -0700 From: "JKirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" May the blessings of Saint Josaphat rest upon you all! Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl _________________________ Bah, humbug! If we think 2010 will be different from 2009, think again~~~~~~~ Grumpily yours, JK From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 2 10:10:19 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 10:10:19 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> Message-ID: <9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> Richard H. & Dan, Why can't it be the "jewel of (belonging to, from the) the lotus"? That trans. would accord with the oft-used metaphor, in various texts, of Buddhist insight arising out of samsara as the lotus rises from the mud. The jewel of course being the Buddha's message. Has anyone ever asked any Tibetan monks what they think it means? Did Lopez ask any Tibetan monks about this? Aside from the philological issues of non-monk non-Tibetan scholars, seems to me that Tibetan scholarship on this deserves some attention. Dreyfus did a lot of translating and was accorded the title of Geshe--did he ever discover how Tibetan (presumably monk) scholars deconstruct this mantra? Did anyone??? Emically yours, JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:11 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" On Jan 1, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Now that we got that out of the way, Studholme, putting aside the fact > that it is a mantra and thus not susceptible to regular Skt rules Since when is it a fact that a mantra is not susceptible to regular Sanskrit rules? If a phrase does not follow regular Sanskrit rules, it is not Sanskrit. Now if the claim is that mantras need not be Sanskrit sentences but can be just sounds, then it would be silly to try to attach any meaning to the sounds at all. > So manipadme is a tatpurusa after all. It could be in theory, but it there is one very good reason to doubt that that's what it is in practice. It is a strange sentence that consists of nothing but tatpuru?a in the locative singular and nothing else. If it is a tatpuru?a, then it can only mean something like "in the lotus with, for, out of, belonging to or in the jewel" (depending on whether one takes it to be a third, fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh vibhakti tatpuru?a. None of those means the same as "the lotus is in the jewel." Lopez admits the mantra has puzzled commentators for years. No one would deny that. His point is that no one ever understood "om ma?ipadme h??" to mean "the jewel is in the lotus" until an Oxford professor with an overly active imagination claimed the mantra to have that meaning and suggested that it was a sexual metaphor consistent with left-handed tantra. What is interesting is how such a completely untenable interpretation could come to be regarded by so many as the "right" interpretation and how every Comparative Religions 101 professor has repeated that untenable interpretation as if it made some sense. It does not encourage one about the future of education. But what the hell, eh? Ninety-eight percent of the world wrongly regarded 2000 as the first year of the 21st century instead of the last year of the 20th, and all manner of television people who should have known better were calling 2010 the first year of a new decade, when it is clearly the last year of the decade that began with 2001, the first year of the 21st century. If television journalists can't even get the simple matters straight, why should Comparative Religion 101 professors be able to sort out what an obscure mantra is all about? Richard (any Richard will do) _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 2 11:06:16 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 11:06:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ya Allah! I really was only alluding to the usual happiness of the new year, which in my political negativity about the world doesn't foretell anything better than the last one. Erik's messages usually give me some good laughs, and now yours did too, so thanks all. JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Blezer, H.W.A. Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:33 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year ERIK!! You have been told more than once now, JK does not like to read about Saint Josaphat! Behave, Henk ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:17:34 -0700 From: "JKirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Happy New Year To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" May the blessings of Saint Josaphat rest upon you all! Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl _________________________ Bah, humbug! If we think 2010 will be different from 2009, think again~~~~~~~ Grumpily yours, JK _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Sat Jan 2 15:58:51 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 14:58:51 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Undead, This is a very important discussion to which I want to contribute. But for now I have only time to only say that, following up on Katherine's idea, I just emailed Natalie Quli and offered to send her the text of this thread, if she wants me to. Before doing so, I want to ask if any participants decline to have your words included. If so, please email me. Happy New Year, Franz From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 16:17:56 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 18:17:56 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan><7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> <9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <001001ca8c01$d1695e80$2101a8c0@Dan> Joanna, > Why can't it be the "jewel of (belonging to, from the) the lotus"? "Belonging to" would require a genitive ending. "From the" would require the ablative. While, as is evident, cases can be made (and unmade) for locative and vocative readings of padme, padme cannot (as far as I can tell) be construed as either genitive or ablative. This is what we meant by grammar putting limits on interpretation, but not sufficient to decide amongst viable possibilities. But, hey, if you call yourself a Buddhist, and want to interpret it that way, who are we prejudicial orientalist-tinged western scholars to tell you you're wrong? Just don't release sarin in any subways. cheers, Dan From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 2 16:24:21 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:24:21 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> <00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B3FD5A5.9090908@cola.iges.org> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Lopez is trying to play myth-buster. Thurman's objections are based on the > idea that Tibet's mystique is a useful tool for eliciting support for > Tibetan liberation from China, and undermining that mystique therefore has > dire consequences for actual flesh-and-blood Tibetans, who rely on that > support for hope. > > As a myth-buster, Lopez tries to sensationalize his supposed revelations > (most are just common-place knowledge amongst scholars, if not all Western > devotees). Into that, he mixes his own bag of questionable assertions. Let's > take Alex's linked piece, on the 7 things you didn't know about Tibet. > I think it is not really the case that Thurman fears that the spread of accurate knowledge about Tibet will undermine western support for the Tibetan cause. Rather, Thurman is concerned about the way "information", and in Lopez' case the quotation marks are justified, is used to influence public perception of Tibet. Public perception being what it is, and the situation in Tibet being what it is, Thurman is understandably concerned first and foremost with whether or not public perception of Tibet is favorable, and, just as importantly, whether or not public perception of the brutal Chinese occupation of Tibet is unfavorable. Does the public at large have a more accurate view of Tibet, and, in particular, the current situation in Tibet, thanks to Lopez? No. This is because Lopez is often wrong (as Dan showed) and even when right does not present new knowledge, but rather presents common-knowledge in a sensationalistic way that is obviously (to everyone, including Lopez, regardless of his feeble protests) designed to undermine public support for the Tibetan cause. Basically, Lopez is like an Buddhist Alan Keyes. If some Chinese Communist Party official prattles on about how the dirty backwards Tibetans beat their wives and live in their own filth, no one pays attention (well, except for scum like Michael Parenti). But if some nice western Buddhist with a PhD comes along with a slightly watered down version of standard issue Maoist propaganda about Tibet, well, that's news. Curt P.S. I envy those who don't know who either Alan Keyes or Michael Parenti are. If you are so fortunate, please remain blissfully ignorant and under no circumstances google their names. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 2 16:37:14 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 16:37:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <001001ca8c01$d1695e80$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan><7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu><9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> <001001ca8c01$d1695e80$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <7C6AAA4E8CC74FCE83A41B44F4E2BBBB@OPTIPLEX> "Just don't release sarin in any subways." Come on Dan--that is not funny. I think you philogers are overdoing the classical grammatical focus. I bet this mantra got started in ages past and with constant vernacular use became variable in pronunciations and in writing, over time, like many other mantras from our own historical records. JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 4:18 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" Joanna, > Why can't it be the "jewel of (belonging to, from the) the lotus"? "Belonging to" would require a genitive ending. "From the" would require the ablative. While, as is evident, cases can be made (and unmade) for locative and vocative readings of padme, padme cannot (as far as I can tell) be construed as either genitive or ablative. This is what we meant by grammar putting limits on interpretation, but not sufficient to decide amongst viable possibilities. But, hey, if you call yourself a Buddhist, and want to interpret it that way, who are we prejudicial orientalist-tinged western scholars to tell you you're wrong? Just don't release sarin in any subways. cheers, Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 18:25:36 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 20:25:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan><7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu><9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX><001001ca8c01$d1695e80$2101a8c0@Dan> <7C6AAA4E8CC74FCE83A41B44F4E2BBBB@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <000a01ca8c13$a752a900$2101a8c0@Dan> > "Just don't release sarin in any subways." > Come on Dan--that is not funny. Just a self-reference to an earlier posting of my own -- re: scholars were willing to let anyone who call themselves a Buddhist define what was and wasn't Buddhism, and they'd let anyone call themselves a Buddhist -- until the Sarin attack, which suggested maybe it is time to do the difficult job of defining things with a bit more specificity. Heck, Buddhists have been doing that to each other for nearly 2500 years. > I think you philogers are overdoing the classical grammatical > focus. > I bet this mantra got started in ages past and with constant > vernacular use became variable in pronunciations and in writing, > over time, like many other mantras from our own historical > records. I agree with you. All that fuss about a vowel (-e), which may just be a poorly transcribed -a, or who knows what. The fun of exegesis. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 21:59:24 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 21:59:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <014101ca8b8d$ac3d2b60$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <014101ca8b8d$ac3d2b60$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <0FBD2568-3DFC-4794-9FEC-E00F79F84A26@unm.edu> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:26 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > It's not a > sentence, and according to some Skt grammarians meaning resides only in > complete sentences, not words or letters. In response to those grammarians, I say "ho hum." Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 22:07:34 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 22:07:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <4B3FD5A5.9090908@cola.iges.org> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> <00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B3FD5A5.9090908@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:24 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > P.S. I envy those who don't know who either Alan Keyes or Michael > Parenti are. If you are so fortunate, please remain blissfully ignorant > and under no circumstances google their names. I have no idea who either of these people are, and I appreciate the warning. They shall remain ungoggled in the Hayes household. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 22:09:33 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 22:09:33 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <7C6AAA4E8CC74FCE83A41B44F4E2BBBB@OPTIPLEX> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan><7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu><9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> <001001ca8c01$d1695e80$2101a8c0@Dan> <7C6AAA4E8CC74FCE83A41B44F4E2BBBB@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1C57090C-6200-40D8-86A6-C8681D99596A@unm.edu> n Jan 2, 2010, at 4:37 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I think you philogers are overdoing the classical grammatical > focus. What the hell is a philoger? Curious Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 22:12:18 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 22:12:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> <9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <45382DD4-AF95-4E58-AF25-AD65D942BF54@unm.edu> On Jan 2, 2010, at 10:10 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Richard H. & Dan, > > Why can't it be the "jewel of (belonging to, from the) the lotus"? If you ask Richard and Dan, you'll get an answer, but it won't be the one you want. To get the answer you want, you need to ask Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. Richard From cfynn at gmx.net Sat Jan 2 22:57:32 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:57:32 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5giAod2FzOiBS?= =?utf-8?q?e=3A_=22Western_Self=2C_Asian_Other=22_=29?= In-Reply-To: <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> Dan Lusthaus wrote: >... There are, it seems > to me, three major drawbacks to this interpretation. In order to connect the > formula to an orthodox fivefold scheme of buddhas, it becomes necessary to > lengthen the formula by the arbitrary addition of the extra syllable Hrih > (the associated bija, or ?seed syllable,? which is traditionally used as a > symbol of the potentiality of Avalokitesvara or that from which the > bodhisattva may manifest). In the Tibetan tradition the *six* Buddhas that the syllables of the sa?ak?ara mantra of Avalokite?vara, O? MA?I PAD ME H??, are associated with are the six nirm??ak?ya muni (sprul-sku thub-drug)~ aspects of Buddha (/Avalokite?vara) said to manifest in the six realms of living beings: 1. O? with Indra?akra - the muni of the gods realm 2. MA with Vemacitra - the muni of the anti-gods realm 3. ?I with ?h?kyasi?ha or ?h?kyamuni - the muni of the human realm 4. PAD with Stirasi?ha -the muni of the animals realm 5. ME with Jv?lamukha - the muni of the anguished spirits realm 6. H?? with Yama Dharmar?ja - the muni of the hell realm Mindfully reciting this mantra is beleived to purify the defilement assosiated with each realm (1. pride 2. envy 3. attachment, 4. ignorance, 5. greed, 6. anger); thus to help liberate beings in each of these six realms and to cut off future rebirth in each of these realms for oneself. This is the "meaning" of the mantra which has been consitently taught by Tibetan lamas for well over a thousand years and the understanding of Tibetans who recite it with faith in its efficacy. Each of these six muni is normally represented and visualised as a peaceful standing Buddha of a particular colour (1. white, 2. green, 3. golden-yellow, 4. blue, 5. red, 6. black) holding an article symbolically associated with the way Buddha conveys Dharma in each realm. There are several ancient iconographic forms of Avalokite?vara depicted in the centre of a six petalled lotus surrounded by these six nirm??ak?ya muni ~ one on each petal. The HR?? from which the six syllables emanate, is of course associated with Avalokite?vara from whom the six muni emanate. - Chris From cfynn at gmx.net Sat Jan 2 23:32:20 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 12:32:20 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5gg==?= In-Reply-To: <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4B4039F4.1080903@gmx.net> Tibetan lamas (some of whom do know Sanskrit) generally say that one should not try to interpret mantras as grammatically meaningful sentences or phrases. This, they claim, is why mantras were left untranslated in Tibetan. In an article Lokesh Chandra claimed that many of the syllables in Buddhist mantras which seem nonsense in Sanskrit, do make sense in Dravidian languages and, on this basis, theorized that the land of Uddiyana / Oddiyana was actually Kanchi in South India! IMO Another example of the sort of scholastic entertainment that can be derived by Sanskritists attempt to make literal sense of mantras. - Chris From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 2 23:33:31 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 23:33:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <12887_1262495631_4B40278F_12887_34_1_45382DD4-AF95-4E58-AF25-AD65D942BF54@unm.edu> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> <9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> <12887_1262495631_4B40278F_12887_34_1_45382DD4-AF95-4E58-AF25-AD65D942BF54@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2010, at 10:10 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Why can't it be the "jewel of (belonging to, from the) the lotus"? I think the most insightful observations on mantras was given by Charles Lutwidge Dodgson in Through the Looking Glass. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all." From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 2 23:48:49 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 23:48:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <1C57090C-6200-40D8-86A6-C8681D99596A@unm.edu> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan><7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu><9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX><001001ca8c01$d1695e80$2101a8c0@Dan><7C6AAA4E8CC74FCE83A41B44F4E2BBBB@OPTIPLEX> <1C57090C-6200-40D8-86A6-C8681D99596A@unm.edu> Message-ID: <2938BFDED8F24CADA0DB3DA5121392A4@OPTIPLEX> compare to rheumatologer -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 10:10 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" n Jan 2, 2010, at 4:37 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I think you philogers are overdoing the classical grammatical focus. What the hell is a philoger? Curious Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Jan 3 03:32:29 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 05:32:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5giAod2FzOiBS?= =?utf-8?q?e=3A_=22Western_Self=2C_Asian_Other=22_=29?= References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> Message-ID: <006701ca8c60$0d868830$2101a8c0@Dan> Thanks, Chris for the 6 Buddha correlative theory. One minor correction. What you are quoting is not what "Dan Lusthaus wrote," but what Alexander Studholme wrote in his book _The Origins of Om Manipadme Hum: A Study of the Karandavyuha Sutra_ SUNY Press, 2002. The Dalai Lama, on the site I previously gave a link to, mentions *five* Buddhas re: Om mani padme hum. " In terms of the seed syllables of the five Conqueror Buddhas, hum is the seed syllable of Akshobhya - the immovable, the unfluctuating, that which cannot be disturbed by anything." The link, again: http://www.circle-of-light.com/Mantras/om-mantra.html Since Om can be broken into 3 syllables (a-u-m), shall we go for eight Buddhas? A-U-M ma-ni pad-me hum? (or seven, if a-um ma-ni pad-me hum?) If we give each ak.sara (letter) its own corresponding bija we could get 10 Buddhas or more (depending on how you treat the vowels). Dan > In the Tibetan tradition the *six* Buddhas that the syllables of the > sa?ak?ara mantra of Avalokite?vara, O? MA?I PAD ME H??, are associated > with are the six nirm??ak?ya muni (sprul-sku thub-drug)~ aspects of > Buddha (/Avalokite?vara) said to manifest in the six realms of living > beings: From franz at mind2mind.net Sun Jan 3 11:03:58 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 10:03:58 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Om mani padme hum IN "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan><00f101ca8b6b$1769ed60$2101a8c0@Dan> <7746A700-458F-4DEB-B587-8024A50DC187@unm.edu> <9B41161DCE3840DCABD12D78C87646D1@OPTIPLEX> <12887_1262495631_4B40278F_12887_34_1_45382DD4-AF95-4E58-AF25-AD65D942BF54@unm.edu> Message-ID: <3981209A-8ED7-498D-BFC8-55CCA4794F72@mind2mind.net> Making a nice, knock-down argument, Richard Hayes wrote: > I think the most insightful observations on mantras was given by > Charles Lutwidge Dodgson in Through the Looking Glass. > > "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, > "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." > "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so > many different things." > "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - > that's all." There's glory for you! (So wrote my seventh cousin, three times removed.) From bshmr at aol.com Sun Jan 3 11:21:35 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 12:21:35 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1262542895.15933.114.camel@aims110> Denizens and non-denizens, After wading through the whole of the journal article (on the 29th) and following discourse, I will take my sandals and socks off, roll up my pants (no sense damaging perfectly functional stuff) to wade in with my two cents worth. BTW, it has been as warm -7 C lately just so you can appreciate the risk and suffering as well as the wish to not re-dress in ice. My first significant thought was that the journal piece needed or suffered editing. Second, 'it' was Palin-esque -- a hodgepodge of Falkner-length sentences which lacked consistency in content or structure. Third, use of a 'logic table' approach, as in some canon works, would simplify (and shorten). ... Research added some humor. Finally, I expected super-hero Obvious Man to appear numerous times. As others have noted, it addressed "the individual cherries seen as ripe for the picking". Undoubtedly, some individuals in today's world are prejudiced, some luny/loony, some both, and the remainder neither (all of the time). Yes, "the white man's burden" is 'his' chauvinist imperial attitude reinforced by 'his' Abrahamic exceptionalism. ... Other than that, ON ONE LEVEL, I observed much argument (noises and signs) over (what I refer to as) 'mystification'. And, whose 'mystery' is transcendent -- I have in mind HTML posts and 'aum/om mani padme hum' (or whatever). On HTML, black symbols of uniform size on white background are directly functional. Infinite choices as to size, color, font, and images detract from content, regardless of how flattering, powerful, all sorts of 'desirables' for the composer. So, though sweet innocents plead for HTML, I imagine (fear) abuse by the emotional, convinced types. On ?'mani padme', I point out that ASL (American Sign Language) and other conceptual languages communicate more with brevity than the proper structured written (or spoken) words of the American/English language. Yet, ASL effectively communicates and connects -- often admirably lucid and pure. In other words, for those limited to 'zen', fingers and reflections ain't the sense of the moon, which is a state of being. That said, I do appreciate the learning, yours and continuing mine. I haven't decided whether to wait a bit, in this damned cold, to redress, or not. Most likely not not. Richard Basham -- Make noise; leave sign; or, not. @1983 On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 23:11 -0700, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com wrote: > On Dec 28, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > > > There is an interesting article in the current edition of the > on-line Journal of Buddhist Ethics. It's entitled "Western Self, Asian > Other: Modernity, Authenticity and Nostalgia for 'Tradition' in > Buddhist Studies," by Natalie E. Quli. It can be downloaded from the > Buddhist Ethics website: http://www.buddhistethics.org/current.html > > Quli's article begins with this observation: "There has been > considerable rancor and finger-pointing in recent years concerning the > intersection of the West and Buddhism." This observation is followed > by two claims. The first claim is that Western scholars of Buddhism > and Western converts to Buddhism are "regularly labeled Orientalists." > The second claim is that Asian Buddhists who appropriate Western ideas > are "routinely dismissed for appropriating Western ideas and cloaking > them with the veil of tradition, sometimes for nationalistic purposes, > and producing 'Buddhist modernism.'" The examples she gives of Asians > who are subjected to this treatment for this reason are Anag?rika > Dharmap?la and D.T. Suzuki. From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 3 16:26:47 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 16:26:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5gg==?= In-Reply-To: <4B4039F4.1080903@gmx.net> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> <4B4039F4.1080903@gmx.net> Message-ID: <80F2A21C-0A88-407C-9994-99C28D2729C3@unm.edu> On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Chris Fynn wrote: > IMO Another > example of the sort of scholastic entertainment that can be derived by > Sanskritists attempt to make literal sense of mantras. Is Lopez wrong when he reports that commentators have also attempted to make grammatical sense of mantras? Or am I misremembering what Lopez wrote? What I am really asking is whether modern academic Sanskritists have followed a traditional foolishness, or have found a novel way to be foolish. (Like Dan, I have no cock in this fight, but I suppose I would like to think that modern Sanskritists have made some sort of new contribution to the world's folly.) Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Jan 3 20:27:38 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 19:27:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" Message-ID: <902252.76972.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Curt Steinmetz said: "P.S. I envy those who don't know who either Alan Keyes or Michael Parenti are. If you are so fortunate, please remain blissfully ignorant and under no circumstances google their names." ___________________________________________ Actually, Stuart Lachs posted some comments on Parenti's views a couple of years ago.? While I might not agree with everything Parenti says,?his online article "Friendly Feudalism" is worth reading.? Regarding Alan Keyes,?I will abstain from?learning about him for now.? ? Katherine Masis ? ? From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun Jan 3 21:24:43 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:24:43 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] 7 Day Buddha In-Reply-To: <006701ca8c60$0d868830$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan><4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> <006701ca8c60$0d868830$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4EAC6942D1A6488493ADDFD2D887FA5D@comp.nus.edu.sg> On a related note... in Thai Buddhism, there is also the "7 Day Buddhas" thingy - http://www.buddha-images.com/seven-days.asp W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:32 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l]O? MA?I PAD ME HU? (was: Re: "Western Self, Asian > Other" ) > > Thanks, Chris for the 6 Buddha correlative theory. One minor correction. > What you are quoting is not what "Dan Lusthaus wrote," but what Alexander > Studholme wrote in his book _The Origins of Om Manipadme Hum: A Study of > the > Karandavyuha Sutra_ SUNY Press, 2002. > > The Dalai Lama, on the site I previously gave a link to, mentions *five* > Buddhas re: Om mani padme hum. " In terms of the seed syllables of the > five > Conqueror Buddhas, hum is the seed syllable of Akshobhya - the immovable, > the unfluctuating, that which cannot be disturbed by anything." > > The link, again: http://www.circle-of-light.com/Mantras/om-mantra.html > > Since Om can be broken into 3 syllables (a-u-m), shall we go for eight > Buddhas? A-U-M ma-ni pad-me hum? (or seven, if a-um ma-ni pad-me hum?) If > we > give each ak.sara (letter) its own corresponding bija we could get 10 > Buddhas or more (depending on how you treat the vowels). > > Dan > > > In the Tibetan tradition the *six* Buddhas that the syllables of the > > sa?ak?ara mantra of Avalokitesvara, O? MA?I PAD ME HU?, are associated > > with are the six nirma?akaya muni (sprul-sku thub-drug)~ aspects of > > Buddha (/Avalokitesvara) said to manifest in the six realms of living > > beings: > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 3 23:26:52 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 23:26:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: <1262542895.15933.114.camel@aims110> References: <1262542895.15933.114.camel@aims110> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2010, at 11:21 AM, R B Basham wrote: > On HTML, black symbols of uniform size on white background are directly > functional. Infinite choices as to size, color, font, and images detract > from content, regardless of how flattering, powerful, all sorts of > 'desirables' for the composer. Holy Java script, Batman! I forgot all about the grim prospects of messages coming in written on flowered "stationery" with text in Apple Marker Felt font set at 18 point in the color mauve. And some would not be able to resist dynamic emoticons that wink, blink, blush, eat, sleep, drink and wet. The technological age has provided us with alternatives to good prose and sound argumentation so numerous as to defy reckoning, and while I trust most buddha-l denizens to have the discipline to refrain from such aesthetic monstrosities as those you mention, there may be some who would assault and batter the rest of us with their eye-candy canes. > So, though sweet innocents plead for > HTML, I imagine (fear) abuse by the emotional, convinced types. Your fear is contagious, Brother Richard. In my previous state of innocence, I failed to panic, but now that you remind me, I recall that there are still a few bad cyber-citizens even here on buddha-l. There are still contributors who commit such unconscionable breeches of conventional netiquette as to quote an entire long post in a message that contains nothing else but response such as "LOL" or "Hahahahaha." If the original long message were in HTML, it would already be as bulky as an elephant. If the response were "OMG" in blinking pink, accompanied by a 3D dynamic emoticon graphically depicting projectile vomiting, the resultant message would have as many bytes as there are grains of sand on the banks of the Mississippi. Perish the thought. You have convinced me that HTML could be the end of civilization as we know it here on buddha-l. I feel obligated to commit harakiri for even asking the quesion. Chris Fynn, can you remind us of the mantra that translates "Oh Lord, don't let me commit seppuku again?" The late Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Jan 4 08:07:06 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:07:06 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5gg==?= In-Reply-To: <006701ca8c60$0d868830$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> <006701ca8c60$0d868830$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B42041A.6080807@gmx.net> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Thanks, Chris for the 6 Buddha correlative theory. One minor correction. > What you are quoting is not what "Dan Lusthaus wrote," but what Alexander > Studholme wrote in his book _The Origins of Om Manipadme Hum: A Study of the > Karandavyuha Sutra_ SUNY Press, 2002. Sorry Dan, missed that - Does Studholme reference any of the innumerable Tibetan texts on this mantra? > The Dalai Lama, on the site I previously gave a link to, mentions *five* > Buddhas re: Om mani padme hum. " In terms of the seed syllables of the five > Conqueror Buddhas, hum is the seed syllable of Akshobhya - the immovable, > the unfluctuating, that which cannot be disturbed by anything." > > The link, again: http://www.circle-of-light.com/Mantras/om-mantra.html But in this the DL actually connects only one of the 5 Buddhas, Ak?obhya, to a syllable of the Mantra (H??) giving no correlations for the rest. Since Ak?obhya usually represents the "mirror-like" wisdom, the purity of anger-aversion, and the muni Yama Dharmaraja in the list I gave is supposed to purify anger-aversion there seems no real conflict between the two versions. As well as the usual fivefold list, there is sometimes a sixfold list of Conqueror Buddhas: Samantabhadra, Vairocana, Ak?obhya-Vajrasattva, Ratnasambhava, Amit?bha, and Amoghasiddhi - which is the same as the 5 fold list with the addition of Samantabhadra. > Since Om can be broken into 3 syllables (a-u-m), shall we go for eight > Buddhas? A-U-M ma-ni pad-me hum? (or seven, if a-um ma-ni pad-me hum?) If we > give each ak.sara (letter) its own corresponding bija we could get 10 > Buddhas or more (depending on how you treat the vowels). You can break it down however you choose but, in Tibetan, o? ma-?i pad-me h?? is inevitably referred to as the "six-syllable" or "six letter" (yi-ge drug-pa) mantra ~ even though, as you point out, some of these yig-ge have more than one component. > Dan > >> In the Tibetan tradition the *six* Buddhas that the syllables of the >> sa?ak?ara mantra of Avalokite?vara, O? MA?I PAD ME H??, are associated >> with are the six nirm??ak?ya muni (sprul-sku thub-drug)~ aspects of >> Buddha (/Avalokite?vara) said to manifest in the six realms of living >> beings: These muni are often depicted - one in each realm - in Tibetan paintings of the "Wheel of Life" (sid pa'i kor lo) - a theme which is described in Gunaprapha's Vinaya-s?tra. Early examples of paintings of the Wheel of Life depict only five realms of beings; those of gods, humans, animals, anguished spirits and hell beings, - while later versions from Tibet and Central Asia often divide the gods realm into two: gods and jealous gods making six. These later paintings often depict the six muni. I wonder if this change was made to bring it in line with the popular traditon of Avalokite?vara and the six syllable mantra in Tibet? There are of course numerous forms of Avalokite?vara surrounded by completely different retinues and numbers of of deities ~ but these different forms are usually also associated with different mantras. O? ma-?i pad-me h?? is most often associated with the white four armed seated form popular in Tibet. - Chris From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Jan 4 08:19:11 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:19:11 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: <1262542895.15933.114.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <4B4206EF.4020000@gmx.net> Richard Hayes wrote: > Chris Fynn, can you remind us of the mantra that translates "Oh Lord, don't let me commit seppuku again?" That can't possibly be the correct translation of a mantra since it makes grammatical sense. :-) Possibly a dh?ra??? - C From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 4 08:25:18 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 08:25:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: <1262542895.15933.114.camel@aims110> Message-ID: Yikes (is that still allowed?)--- I retract my call for HTML. The prospects are indeed daunting. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 11:27 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" On Jan 3, 2010, at 11:21 AM, R B Basham wrote: > On HTML, black symbols of uniform size on white background are > directly functional. Infinite choices as to size, color, font, and > images detract from content, regardless of how flattering, powerful, > all sorts of 'desirables' for the composer. Holy Java script, Batman! I forgot all about the grim prospects of messages coming in written on flowered "stationery" with text in Apple Marker Felt font set at 18 point in the color mauve. And some would not be able to resist dynamic emoticons that wink, blink, blush, eat, sleep, drink and wet. The technological age has provided us with alternatives to good prose and sound argumentation so numerous as to defy reckoning, and while I trust most buddha-l denizens to have the discipline to refrain from such aesthetic monstrosities as those you mention, there may be some who would assault and batter the rest of us with their eye-candy canes. From alberto.tod at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 08:41:51 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 10:41:51 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western Self, Asian Other In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B420C3F.70409@gmail.com> Richard Hayes wrote: > There are still contributors who commit such unconscionable breeches of conventional netiquette as to quote an entire long post in a message that contains nothing else but response such as "LOL" or "Hahahahaha." On a similar topic, I prefer to receive Buddha-L in digest form. I've ground my teeth into oblivion because of the distress caused to me by top posters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting#Top-posting). Please, pleeeeease, dear members, learn not to top-post. If it's unclear why that's irritating, try to receive Buddha-L in digest form and you'll see how annoying that practice is. Toothlessly yours, Alberto Todeschini From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Jan 4 09:47:56 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:47:56 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5gg==?= In-Reply-To: <80F2A21C-0A88-407C-9994-99C28D2729C3@unm.edu> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> <4B4039F4.1080903@gmx.net> <80F2A21C-0A88-407C-9994-99C28D2729C3@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B421BBC.6020509@gmx.net> Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Chris Fynn wrote: > >> IMO Another >> example of the sort of scholastic entertainment that can be derived by >> Sanskritists attempt to make literal sense of mantras. > > Is Lopez wrong when he reports that commentators have also attempted to make grammatical sense of mantras? Or am I misremembering what Lopez wrote? What I am really asking is whether modern academic Sanskritists have followed a traditional foolishness, or have found a novel way to be foolish. (Like Dan, I have no cock in this fight, but I suppose I would like to think that modern Sanskritists have made some sort of new contribution to the world's folly.) Like Dan and others I find Lopez suspect on a number of counts - but there may be a grain of truth here - while the Tibetan commentators I am familiar with refrain from attempting to make grammatical or literary sense of mantras, several do warn of the folly of such attempts so there must have been some that attempted this in the past. Does Lopez cite any any of these foolish commentators? Modern Sanskritists may have only revived an old sport or perhaps extended it. As far as I can make out in Buddhism mantras (sngags) have long been held to have only symbolic or "mystical" meaning and some power to transform while otoh dh?ra?? (gzungs) often do contain intelligible phrases (that seems to be the main distinction made between the two). That's not to say that mantras have no meaning - indeed they are usually held to be imbued with a great deal of symbolic - but not literary - meaning. In this instance I was referring to Lokesh Chandra's attempt to locate O??iy?na in South India * and other such daring attempts to construct an elaborate thesis or re-write history on what seems like the rather shaky foundation of the supposed "literal meaning" or grammar of generally unintelligible phonemes in mantras. I can't imagine commentators of the past going quite so far. It must be fun to be a Sanskritist (/ Sanskritologer?)- but I fear I'm getting too old and lazy in this life to learn the language of the devas to a level that I could participate in such sport. I'll have to content myself with barbarian languages such as English and Tibetan. - chris * "O??iy?na: A New Interpretation" in M. Aris & Aung San Suu Kyi, Tibetan Studies in Honour of Hugh Richardson, Warminster, 1980, pp. 73-78 From H.W.A.Blezer at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Jan 4 10:27:41 2010 From: H.W.A.Blezer at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Blezer, H.W.A.) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 18:27:41 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism without Borders Message-ID: L.S., Those who are currently engaged in discussing Natalie Quli's article, might be interested to move part of their discussion to another venue -- into her presence in fact: At the occasion of the Buddhism without Borders conference, March 18 - 21, 2010, at the Institute of Buddhist Studies, in Berkeley, California http://www.shin-ibs.edu/eventreg/Berkeley2010.php As far as I know, Natalie Quli is involved in organising the event. With best wishes for the new year, Henk P.S. on a tangential note: Speaking about the benefits of the presence of the subject of discussion. Allow me to articulate at least one concrete wish for 2010, RE: netiquette. The tone with which colleagues whom I hold in high regards (notably Lopez, but also Vetter or the late Gonda, to mention just a few) are discussed on this list at times appears somewhat ad hominem and dismissive -- occasionally even from members who admit that they have not read their work (properly) ... I'd wish that list-members could engage my colleague's work or if needs be question their personal motives -- but preferably only their work -- *as if* the subjects of discussion were actually present, on the list or otherwise (and of the dead, speak nothing but good, of course). I can't easily imagine that some of the opinions voiced here would have been spoken in the same manner in their presence. If only a few people regularly contribute, a false sense of privacy may appear; yet, this is still a semi-public and archived forum. I for one, would find my occasional readings of postings a much more pleasant experience if people could exert more restraint in this regard. Such discretion would not detract from the quality of discussion, rather on the contrary; thanks. From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Jan 4 10:28:04 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 23:28:04 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: <1262542895.15933.114.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <4B422524.3030306@gmx.net> Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 3, 2010, at 11:21 AM, R B Basham wrote: > >> On HTML, black symbols of uniform size on white background are directly >> functional. Infinite choices as to size, color, font, and images detract >> from content, regardless of how flattering, powerful, all sorts of >> 'desirables' for the composer. > Holy Java script, Batman! I forgot all about the grim prospects of messages > coming in written on flowered "stationery" with text in Apple Marker Felt font > set at 18 point in the color mauve. And some would not be able to resist > dynamic emoticons that wink, blink, blush, eat, sleep, drink and wet. > The technological age has provided us with alternatives to good prose and > sound argumentation so numerous as to defy reckoning, and while I trust most > buddha-l denizens to have the discipline to refrain from such aesthetic > monstrosities as those you mention, there may be some who would assault > and batter the rest of us with their eye-candy canes. Unfortunately in the next version of the Unicode Standard a bunch of "Emoji" characters are being encoded "for compatibility with Japanese cell phone messaging" at the insistence of the manufacturers of some of these cell phones (DoCoMo, KDDI and Softbank) aided and abetted by Apple, Yahoo and Microsoft. So soon even with plain text you can include such characters as CHERRY BLOSSOM, LEAF FLUTTERING IN WIND, WOMAN WITH BUNNY EARS. LONG NOSED GOBLIN, FISH CAKE WITH SWIRL DESIGN, ALIEN MONSTER, MOUNT FUJI, POOP and hundreds of other such things to brighten up your Buddha-L messages. OTOH due to the work of others soon you will also be able to quote Buddhist manuscripts in Gandhari and Ranjana using the original script as characters for these scripts are also being included in Unicode. - Chris From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 4 13:33:14 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:33:14 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?b?T+G5giBNQeG5hkkgUEFEIE1FIEjFquG5gg==?= In-Reply-To: <4B421BBC.6020509@gmx.net> References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org><50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX><000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org><00d401ca8b45$5478af00$2101a8c0@Dan><00df01ca8b60$c8093b90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011601ca8b7b$6f5c03e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B4031CC.9030904@gmx.net> <4B4039F4.1080903@gmx.net> <80F2A21C-0A88-407C-9994-99C28D2729C3@unm.edu> <4B421BBC.6020509@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4B42508A.9030004@xs4all.nl> Op 4-1-2010 17:47, Chris Fynn schreef: > > Modern Sanskritists may have only revived an old sport or perhaps > extended it. As far as I can make out in Buddhism mantras (sngags) have > long been held to have only symbolic or "mystical" meaning and some > power to transform while otoh dh?ra?? (gzungs) often do contain > intelligible phrases (that seems to be the main distinction made between > the two). > Alex Wayman shows in an article in his 'Buddhist insight' that most mantra's are of Vedic origin or made out of Vedic components. This as in argument in favour of the assumption that Buddhist rituals and even tantrism has been invented by converted brahmins or copycats of brahmanist rituals. This fact has been overlooked by Tibetan lamas, because of their poor knowledge of Sanskrit, Vedic literature and Indian history. Most mantras by the way are not in Prakrit, the vajrasongs are. I don't believe in the myth of the mystic sound of mantras, which also has a Vedic origin I'm afraid. Since the appearance of proselytising Numata professors in my neighbourhood I am a staunch believer of pragmatism. So if the lamas really would care about the sound they would necessarily be very meticulous about the pronunciation of mantras. The dramatic effects of their sloppiness in this area have been all to clear. China had no trouble invading and occupying Tibet because Indra's weapon had become a powerless /benzra /and the /hum /and /om/ had been reduced to flat nasal sounds. I also believe that the financial crisis and the attacks of al Qaeda would stop instantly once the inhabitants of the U.S. of A. would stop murdering the Queens English. The floods and fires in Australia would undoubtedly stop too if the people there would stop chewing their language like bubblegum. conspicuously yours Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 4 14:04:12 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:04:12 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] suffix mantras (?) in Eng. [do not read if easily bored] Message-ID: <36ED1C10862C47F3B9DF7C93D4FB960B@OPTIPLEX> Someone recently asked if "philologer" is a word. Here's a list of words ending in -oger: apologer, astrologer, botanologer, cataloger, chronologer, demonologer, dialoger, egyptologer, etymologer, geologer, horologer, insectologer, mythologer, osteologer, philologer, phonologer, phrenologer, physiologer, theologer, zoologer. I note that rheumatologer and Sanskritologer are missing, but there seems no reason why they shouldn't be added, unless non-usage is a reason. But that might apply to the whole -oger list. The -ist suffix is more common. (If you go to this link http://www.wordbyletter.com/suffixe.php and type ist into the right search slot, the list of words ending with -ist is miles long.) English is variable. I prefer the -oger ending whenever possible, because the -ist suffix strikes me as too often hinting at negativity, as in the term "activist," (ex.: "She's a Buddhist activist.") The term "Communist," followed in this country by "Socialist," probably started it all for -ist. Spellcheck hates the list of terms ending in -oger, BTW. Might be fun to check up some of them in the OED to see if -oger words in the professional denotations preceded the -ist words. Your spellcheckologer, JK From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 4 15:47:04 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:47:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] suffix mantras (?) in Eng. [do not read if easily bored] In-Reply-To: <36ED1C10862C47F3B9DF7C93D4FB960B@OPTIPLEX> References: <36ED1C10862C47F3B9DF7C93D4FB960B@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > Someone recently asked if "philologer" is a word. No one asked that. The word about which an inquiry was made was "philoger," a nonce word used in one of your messages. I found "philologer" in an on-line dictionary. It said "See 'philologist.'" That is the word I have most often heard used for the practitionist of a certain approach to texts, used by some religious studies methodologers. The word "philology" means "a love of knowledge" or "a love of words." > English is variable. All languages are. > I prefer the -oger ending whenever possible, > because the -ist suffix strikes me as too often hinting at > negativity, That's a very odd belief. I suggest you may want to go see a psychologer to help you get to the root of that quirky habit of thought. Of course a good philosophist might also be able to offer some help, if you can find one. > as in the term "activist," I'm with you there. "Activator" or "actologer" rings much more positive in my ears than "activist." > The term "Communist," followed in this country by > "Socialist," probably started it all for -ist. You're showing your age. Nobody has given a hoot about communists since Ronald Reagan was playing president. Imagine that! He was elected President of the USA without ever having been a Senatist. All he ever was before running for President was a governist of California. I guess that was considered enough to qualify him to Californicate the whole damn country, and most of the world with it.. > Spellcheck hates > the list of terms ending in -oger, BTW. That fact is the strongest argument I can think of for using that suffix. Aggravating spelling checkists is one of my favorite hobbies. But then I have always been something of an aggravationist. > Might be fun to check up some of them in the OED to see if -oger > words in the professional denotations preceded the -ist words. Well, if that is your idea of fun, then please do it and report back to the rest of us. Meanwhile, we will be using our skills as grammologers. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophistry University of New Mexico (home of New Mexickers) From alex at chagchen.org Mon Jan 4 17:14:50 2010 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:14:50 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western Self, Asian Other In-Reply-To: <4B420C3F.70409@gmail.com> References: <4B420C3F.70409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01ca8d9c$18ed2610$4ac77230$@org> Sorry, we're drifting off-topic, but I have to say that I find bottom posting quite annoying. I like to see what the person has to say, if it interests me enough I can go to the context. Scrolling down and down through stuff I already read just to find out whether the added comment is worth reading - please, no! Please, dear members, top post wherever possible! ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding Blog: Dang Zang > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Alberto Todeschini > Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2010 2:42 AM > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Western Self, Asian Other > (...) > On a similar topic, I prefer to receive Buddha-L in digest form. I've > ground my teeth into oblivion because of the distress caused to me by > top posters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting#Top-posting). > > Please, pleeeeease, dear members, learn not to top-post. If it's unclear > why that's irritating, try to receive Buddha-L in digest form and you'll > see how annoying that practice is. > > Toothlessly yours, > > Alberto Todeschini From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 4 20:56:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 20:56:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Top-posting was [Re: Western Self, Asian Other] In-Reply-To: <000f01ca8d9c$18ed2610$4ac77230$@org> References: <4B420C3F.70409@gmail.com> <000f01ca8d9c$18ed2610$4ac77230$@org> Message-ID: <6617BE78-199A-40C9-AEB1-D5742DF2DC79@unm.edu> On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Alex Wilding wrote: > Sorry, we're drifting off-topic, That's because collectively we have attention deficiency disorder. > but I have to say that I find bottom > posting quite annoying. Yes, it is nearly as bad as top-posting. The middle path between top-posting and bottom-posting is to intermingle one's remarks with the specific sentences to which on is responding. If a reader wishes to read the entire message into which comments have been interspersed, it is very easy to go to the archives to find an original message. If that is too tedious, then one can use a mail client that sorts messages into threads. Unless one is using an email program written before 1998, this is fairly easy to do. > I like to see what the person has to say, if it > interests me enough I can go to the context. One can do that by following a thread. > Please, dear members, top post wherever possible! Please do not listen to Alex. He has gone wild. Richard From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Jan 5 03:36:24 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:36:24 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Meditation should be available on the National Health Service Message-ID: <4B431628.30805@gmx.net> or or - Chris From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 6 09:33:37 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:33:37 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra Message-ID: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> Perhaps we can persuade the generals to win battles by means of the Chenrezig puja. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222369/Can-kill-goat-staring-eyes-Thats-plot-Hollywood-film-U-S-army-experiment.html erik From h.godavari at shaw.ca Wed Jan 6 10:04:14 2010 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (h.godavari) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:04:14 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra In-Reply-To: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> References: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B44C28E.9000303@shaw.ca> From another list for your contemplation :-) regards hg > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222369/Can-kill-goat-staring-eyes-Thats-plot-Hollywood-film-U-S-army-experiment.html > > From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 6 10:06:04 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:06:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra In-Reply-To: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> References: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Perhaps we can persuade the generals to win battles by means of the > Chenrezig puja. Is this how the Dutch government is getting rid of unwanted goats? Perhaps if staring into a goat's eyes turns the goat into a ghost, Geert Wilders will suggest passing a law requiring Dutch citizens to stare into the eyes of unwelcome immigrants. I see students staring into each other's eyes all the time, usually when they're in love. It doesn't seem to kill them, but as far as I can tell it does do serious brain damage. Richard From h.godavari at shaw.ca Wed Jan 6 10:16:20 2010 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (h.godavari) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:16:20 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra In-Reply-To: <4B44C28E.9000303@shaw.ca> References: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> <4B44C28E.9000303@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4B44C564.60001@shaw.ca> OOOPS sorry for the redirection regards hg h.godavari wrote: > From another list for your contemplation :-) > > regards > hg > >> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222369/Can-kill-goat-staring-eyes-Thats-plot-Hollywood-film-U-S-army-experiment.html >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From natalie at shin-ibs.edu Wed Jan 6 13:51:01 2010 From: natalie at shin-ibs.edu (Natalie Quli) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:51:01 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Response: Western Self, Asian Other Message-ID: <554133c71001061251i500b5e3fwe06b67728a73658d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Buddha-l friends, I?m very happy to see my article was interesting enough to spark a discussion, even if it was to denounce it as badly written (but Palinesque? Ouch!). I think most of Richard?s summary of my points was accurate and fair. But I hope I can clear up a few misunderstanding, which were probably due to my less than stellar writing. First, I want to say that I was not in any way advocating, as Richard suggested, ?...letting students read materials written in their own language by practicing Buddhists, especially by ?white? Buddhists...? instead of studying Pali, Sanskrit, etc. Ack, no way! I am arguing for legitimizing the study of Western (including Asian American, etc.) Buddhists and their writings, certainly, but I am definitely not in favor of replacing language studies. I would not suggest substituting Batchelor for Dharmakirti. I think the textual studies in classical languages are very important. But I also think it is worthwhile to study how Buddhism is being reinterpreted in the West among Asian Americans (my biggest interest) and non-Asian Americans, which might entail reading whatever they themselves deem authoritative. For my subjects (Sri Lankan Americans), I?m usually going back to Pali texts, but if one wants to study the Vipassana movement, then yes?reading Batchelor may be important. Also, Richard writes, ?Moreover, professors of Buddhism are, she claims, much more inclined to have students read texts than take field trips, analyze rituals, or study iconography.? Hmm, I wouldn?t claim that, actually. My professors have always encouraged the study of ritual and iconography, so that hasn?t been my experience. But they have discouraged the study of Buddhists in Western countries. Richard comments, ?The bias for texts, and especially old texts, and especially texts written in Asia, she claims, helps maintain the impression that Asian Buddhism is somehow authentic, while modernized Buddhism is less so.? I?m not sure I would call it a ?bias? for texts, it?s just the dominant methodology in the field. All methodologies have their weaknesses; this is one potential area of weakness for textual scholars certainly, but I would not say it is an inherent problem if people are aware of it. As long as we can see this potential weakness, I think we?re in good shape. And I do like Schopen?s work in that it shows instances of conflict between what Buddhist texts say about Buddhist behavior and how Buddhists actually behave, but I am a bit concerned by his idea that Western scholars have focused too much on text because of a ?Protestant? bias. Charles Hallisey made a good point in ?Roads Taken and Not Taken in the Study of Theravada Buddhism? (in _Curators of the Buddha_) that Theravadins themselves have historically valued texts, so the fact that early Buddhologists would have focused on texts may be more a case of ?intercultural mimesis? than Protestant bias. The idea that all things Buddhist that resemble Western or Protestant ideas must have somehow come from the West is actually something that concerns me a great deal, which is why I didn?t really mention Schopen, though I do think he has produced good research. Regarding Hallisey, I think he has made some convincing arguments about the limits of Orientalism as a theoretical model for studying Buddhologists, and I would agree with most of his points. But interestingly, it appears that some people have taken my paper to mean that I am accusing the entire field of being Orientalist. This is not the case. I have found that some of the most troubling claims about Buddhist modernism come from people who are a bit hyper-sensitive to Orientalism for my taste. The article was not intended to lament the ?horrors? of Western colonialism nor to paint a picture of innocent Asians as the recipients of corrupt Western violence. Indeed, that is the very attitude I am critiquing. Attributing all things negative to the West and making the West the sole cause of changes in Asian Buddhism is part of the trope of Western modernity being a ?corrupting? influence, and I just don?t buy it. I also think we risk ignoring Asian history by arrogantly making the West the most important influence in Asiawhen we employ Said?s Orientalism too hastily. This point was made by Anne Blackburn in her Nethra article (listed in the bibliography) and elsewhere when she notes that some changes in Sri Lanka may be arguably due to Burmese influence, for example, when scholars have attributed those changes to Western influence alone--what she calls ?a monocausal? explanation for change. This is another reason I am suspect of claims of Orientalism and Buddhist modernism. I name only a few people in the article, though I certainly could have named more. I think Bartholomeusz?s ?Spiritual Wealth and Neo-Orientalism? is a good example of someone who expresses feelings of guilt over colonialism and connects the study and practice of Buddhism by Westerners to Orientalism. There are many other examples of using Orientalism as a theoretical perspective to study Buddhism throughout Buddhist Studies (and anthropology), though the most obvious authors are in _Curators of the Buddha_, who accuse early Buddhology of being Orientalist. The more troubling assertions to me derive from the similar claim that Buddhist modernists or ?Protestant? Buddhists (Westerners studying Buddhism and Asian Buddhists influenced by Westerners) are all Orientalists. Borup's ?Zen and the Art of Inverting Orientalism? calls Dharmapala et al. Orientalists, for example, as does Prothero in his book on Olcott in Sri Lanka, _The White Buddhist_. Yarnall critiques Westerners studying Buddhism as Orientalists in ?Engaged Buddhism: New and Improved!(?): Made in the USA of Asian Materials.? There are many, many other examples. I did not go into a detailed list of names of people who espouse such a view in the article because (a) I?m still a doctoral candidate and think it would be academic suicide to do so and (b) I?m more interested in getting people to pay attention to how these issues may play out in their own and others? work than in attacking specific scholars. And so many of the articles and books above (and others not listed) have such great insights as well?I did not wish to trash them. It's difficult to critique without creating hostility. That brings me to Sharf (who?s work I admire, incidentally) and the issue of distortion. Professor Nance is absolutely right when he comments that the word ?distortion? does not occur in the ?Buddhist Modernism? article. I am quite embarrassed to say that I sloppily cited the incorrect article (though the ?Buddhist Modernism? article is similarly concerned with the decline of Buddhism by dint of its contact with the West and suggests the ?distortion? idea without directly using the word). The article in which he explicitly uses the term occurs in ?The Zen of Japanese Nationalism?: ?How was it that the West came to conceive of Zen in terms of a transcendent or ?unmediated? personal experience? And why are Western intellectuals, scholars of religion, Christian theologians, and even Catholic monastics so eager to embrace this distortion in the face of extensive historical and ethnographic evidence to the contrary?? (p. 108 in the _Curators of the Buddha_ reprint of the article). I?m not so concerned with Sharf creating transhistorical essences as I am concerned with his description of Western influence as ?distortion.? Apparently indigenous changes in Japanese Buddhism are not distortions, or at least I?ve never seen him describe them as such. Nor is influence from other Asian Buddhist countries described in such a way. But if a change in Asian Buddhist understanding is produced via Western influence, it is a ?distortion.? Why? Why is ?the Western? notion of experience (if it is indeed a strictly ?Western? category) capable of corrupting (?distorting?) Japanese Buddhism, while indigenous changes, or even other Asian influences, are not? If it?s Asian, it?s authentic; if it comes from the West, it is inauthentic. That is the subtle claim. I don?t think Sharf generally falls into the mistake of making Buddhism or the West into transhistorical essences, but I think he teeters on it in this particular instance, though to me that is much less important than the trope of ?contamination? that is employed in the article. So I ask: If the concept of ?experience? that Suzuki used to promote Japanese nationalism was found to have been introduced to Japan through Ceylonese rather than Western sources, would the category of ?experience? still be a "distortion"? If we are content to label any change in Buddhism, regardless of its source, as a "distortion," we have created a transhistorical essence that is capable of being distorted. But if only Western-influenced changes are distortions, we are labeling Western influence as the distortion. To look at it from another angle: Certainly adherents of many religions introduce innovations/discontinuities and try to label them as continuities ("tradition"). This is not unique to Zen nationalism. But I think it's dangerous territory to judge--as a scholar--certain changes as "distortions," with all the heavy pejorative baggage of that word, particularly when we know that nearly all religions introduce innovations that they try to pass off as traditional. So to me the emotional charge of "distortion" suggests that he sees *the West* as the corrupting influence, not that the innovations themselves should be seen as distortions. No one claims Zen Buddhists never innovated under the guise of "tradition," but no one seems to call these innovations "distortions" prior to Western influence. So why is an innovation under Western influence a "distortion," but other discontinuities with tradition are just innovations? If we agree that it is Western influence, and not mere innovation, that destroys and distorts Buddhism, then it follows that Asian American Buddhists and anyone else affected by Western ideas have a distorted Buddhism, no? But I am open to other interpretations of Sharf's intentions. Perhaps I am wrong in this instance. That said, I did not at all say or mean to suggest that this was the central thesis of his article rather than simply one aspect of that article. In any event, it?s worth reading Francisca Cho?s ?Religious Identity and the Study of Buddhism? for a critique of Sharf?s disdain for modernist Zen. And of course Southwold uses the word ?distortion? and expresses contempt for Sri Lankan Buddhist modernism throughout his _Buddhism in Life_, as I listed in my footnote. I find a lot of contempt for Western influence in Lopez?s works, too, but I also think he is an amazing scholar and produces great research, so I would not dismiss his work because of it. After all, we all have our opinions. I do indeed suspect much of this has to do with Western scholars competing with Western Buddhists and "new age loonies" over who gets to speak for Buddhism, as several people noted. And I must confess I am not immune to becoming annoyed with white middle-class Buddhist dabblers who make stuff up about Buddhism--someone recently told me Buddhism is about finding the highest purpose of your soul (!!!). I think the annoyance is understandable, but I think we need to go beyond it and remember that scholars are trying to understand and accurately describe Buddhists. I don't own Buddhism. It is going to take directions that I don't like. My job is not to say, "This person isn't a real Buddhist," but rather to reflect on why it is important to this person to have a Buddhist identity, and simply note the discontinuities with tradition without the contempt. It's easy enough to say, "What this person describes as Buddhism is very different from previous Buddhist traditions in the following ways...." There's no need for talk of corruption or lunacy in my opinion. That just makes me a mud-slinger, not a scholar striving for objectivity. I also want to make clear that I am under no illusion that the phenomena of creating Asian (or Western, for that matter) Others is the exclusive property of the West. In fact, this is precisely the kind of attitude I would like to guard against. Setting aside the lingering trope of Western modernity and its ?corrupting? influence, I rather like the point that Sharf and others make when they note how Asian Buddhists have appropriated Western ideas about Asian Others for various purposes. It brings agency back into the picture. I think creating "others" is part of the human project of drawing group boundaries. And I should also add that many Buddhists embrace being called "modern," though I'm more concerned in this article with the ways in which scholars use the category. Anyway, I thought your responses were really helpful and interesting, and I thank you very much for inviting me to respond. I gained some insight into some other perspectives that I had not considered. Thank you! I also recognize that I am not the best writer and that frequently the way I word things is overly confrontational. I have so much to learn. And yes, I am co-organizing with Scott Mitchell (and under the guidance of my advisor, Dr. Richard Payne) the event ?Buddhism without Borders? at the Institute of Buddhist Studies (at the Jodo Shinshu Center in Berkeley, CA)in March. I will be chairing the panel on transnational Buddhisms, which includes a paper by my friend Prof. David McMahan on ?Buddhism and Multiple Modernities? that I am really excited about! The whole conference looks to be very interesting, and I hope to see you there. Here is a link to the event?s Web site: http://www.shin-ibs.edu/eventreg/Berkeley2010.php Wishing you happiness, Natalie Quli --------- PhD candidate, Graduate Theological Union Asst. Editor, *Pacific World: Journal of the Institute of Buddhist Studies* From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 6 18:14:00 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 18:14:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra In-Reply-To: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> References: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5FE48F377819449CA6AF0D9F6EF6E32A@OPTIPLEX> Sounds satanic to me :) -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:34 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra Perhaps we can persuade the generals to win battles by means of the Chenrezig puja. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222369/Can-kill-goat-sta ring-eyes-Thats-plot-Hollywood-film-U-S-army-experiment.html erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jmp at peavler.org Thu Jan 7 09:45:42 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 09:45:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military lefthand tantra In-Reply-To: References: <4B44BB61.8060106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Apparently the left-hand mantra has changed since the days of my youth. On Jan 6, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 6, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > >> Perhaps we can persuade the generals to win battles by means of the >> Chenrezig puja. > > Is this how the Dutch government is getting rid of unwanted goats? Perhaps if staring into a goat's eyes turns the goat into a ghost, Geert Wilders will suggest passing a law requiring Dutch citizens to stare into the eyes of unwelcome immigrants. > > I see students staring into each other's eyes all the time, usually when they're in love. It doesn't seem to kill them, but as far as I can tell it does do serious brain damage. > > Richard > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain." Bertrand Russell. From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 7 11:33:00 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 11:33:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Response: Western Self, Asian Other In-Reply-To: <554133c71001061251i500b5e3fwe06b67728a73658d@mail.gmail.com> References: <554133c71001061251i500b5e3fwe06b67728a73658d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Natalie, for your detailed response on the somewhat desultory discussion of your article. (I'm sorry we got distracted so quickly. We usually get started on discussions here in the morning and end up discussing something totally unrelated to the initial topic by mid-afternoon. Buddha-l has a lot in common with Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.) On Jan 6, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Natalie Quli wrote: > First, I want to say that I was not in any way advocating, as Richard > suggested, ?...letting students read materials written in their own language > by practicing Buddhists, especially by ?white? Buddhists...? instead of > studying Pali, Sanskrit, etc. I may have attributed to you an idea that I myself advocate. I advocate letting students read materials written in their own language. In the past I have taught undergraduate courses in Buddhism in which all the readings were written in English by contemporary Buddhists, most of whom were Europeans or Americans. I would hastily add that I also teach Pali and Sanskrit and mercilessly force my graduate students to read texts written in those languages. > I am arguing for legitimizing the > study of Western (including Asian American, etc.) Buddhists and their > writings, certainly, but I am definitely not in favor of replacing language > studies. That's a reasonable position to take, I think, and it is one that I have seen resisted by some. There are a few academics I know (whose name I will not mention) who seem to think that if a text wasn't composed in Sanskrit, Tibetan, Mongol, Chinese, Korean or Japanese, it ain't Buddhist. That, in my view, is a position longing to attain impermanence as quickly as possible, and I applaud your work for at least preparing the coffin for that attitude. We may have to wait another decade or so for the last nail to be driven into that coffin. Incidentally, you unwittingly quoted some of my words in your article. They had appeared in Prebish's book. I can't recall the exact words right now, but they were words to the effect that at one time in my career I would have discouraged a student from studying "Western Buddhism" (whatever that is) but now encourage students to study it. I even directed an MA thesis by a very capable student who wrote on the development of several ideas in the work of Stephen Batchelor, a thesis from which I learned a great deal. (Stephen Batchelor said he learned a lot about his thought from that thesis, too.) > I would not suggest substituting Batchelor for Dharmakirti. I would, but I don't hold it against you or anyone else for not sharing my enthusiasm for Batchelor (and folks like Tai Unno) and my lack of enthusiasm for Dharmak?rti. > Also, Richard writes, ?Moreover, > professors of Buddhism are, she claims, much more inclined to have students > read texts than take field trips, analyze rituals, or study iconography.? > Hmm, I wouldn?t claim that, actually. My professors have always encouraged > the study of ritual and iconography, so that hasn?t been my experience. But > they have discouraged the study of Buddhists in Western countries. Perhaps I read that attitude between your lines. Probably I thought you were suggesting that there are people like me. I myself am guilty of the accusation I falsely accused you of making. In close to thirty years of teaching I have never even mentioned either rituals or iconography in my classes. I don't know anything about those things (except as a practitioner) and tend to stick with teaching the things I imagine I know something about, namely, doctrines and theories and the things people do with words. > Richard comments, ?The bias for texts, and especially old texts, and > especially texts written in Asia, she claims, helps maintain the impression > that Asian Buddhism is somehow authentic, while modernized Buddhism is less > so.? I?m not sure I would call it a ?bias? for texts, it?s just the dominant > methodology in the field. Fair enough. I tend to use the word "bias" in a non-pejorative way, simply in the sense of a tendency. A dictionary I have, for example, defines "bias" in this way: "a concentration on or interest in one particular area or subject" and gives this as an illustrative sentence: "he worked on a variety of Greek topics, with a discernible bias toward philosophy." > And I do like > Schopen?s work in that it shows instances of conflict between what Buddhist > texts say about Buddhist behavior and how Buddhists actually behave, but I > am a bit concerned by his idea that Western scholars have focused too much > on text because of a ?Protestant? bias. Whenever I read Schopen pointing out (yet again) that Buddhists do not always do what their texts say they are supposed to do, I ask "So what else is new? Who in human history *does* do what their texts say they are supposed to do?" And I agree with you that Schopen (who was brought up a Roman Catholic) overemphasizes the Protestant influence in Buddhist scholarship. I would not expect you to agree with me that Schopen's preoccupation with Protestant influences borders on a potentially (and perhaps actually) unhealthy obsession. That said, I very strongly concur with an observation you make: > The idea that all things Buddhist that resemble Western or Protestant ideas > must have somehow come from the West is actually something that concerns me > a great deal, which is why I didn?t really mention Schopen, though I do > think he has produced good research. This whole issue of Protestant Buddhism interests me a great deal, because I have consciously striven to explore the question of how much a person with a Protestant cultural heritage (such as, uh, myself) must jettison in order to take up Buddhism as a practice with a built-in theory based on assumptions that are not part of European cultural heritage. My trajectory has been one of going from thinking (about 40 years ago) that to be a Buddhist a Protestant kid from some backwater place like New Mexico would have to jettison almost everything to take up Buddhism in any serious way to thinking (now) that one would have to jettison very little. This is my own personal obsession, since I have been involved with both Quakerism and Unitarianism most of my life (and am even a dues-paying member of a Quaker Meeting and therefore what Quakers call a "convinced Friend") and yet fancy myself to be quite a serious Buddhist practitioner. So when I hear the term "Protestant Buddhist," my clenched fist involuntarily rises into the air as I shout "Si. Vinceremos." (Actually, after reading your article, I was thinking of sending you a link to some of my Protestant Buddhist writing, just to see what you would make of it.) > I name only a few people in the article, though I certainly could have named > more. I think Bartholomeusz?s ?Spiritual Wealth and Neo-Orientalism? is a > good example of someone who expresses feelings of guilt over colonialism and > connects the study and practice of Buddhism by Westerners to Orientalism. I've not read Bartholomeusz, but the recapitulations you offer convince me that there are scholars of Buddhism who think about colonialism. > And I must confess I am not immune to > becoming annoyed with white middle-class Buddhist dabblers who make stuff up > about Buddhism--someone recently told me Buddhism is about finding the > highest purpose of your soul (!!!). Most of us who teach Buddhism for a living (and wonder, quite sincerely, whether doing so is a breech against "right livelihood") have had the experience of reading exams at the end of a semester in which students earnestly speak of Buddhism as one of the many legitimate ways to repair our broken relationship with God. How on earth anyone could sit in a course on Buddhist philosophy for an entire semester and still think that boggles the soul. But I think everyone who teaches anything becomes aware pretty quickly that the course a student takes is a very different one from the course that the professor teaches. Our job as educators is to have our most cherished work caricatured. > I also > recognize that I am not the best writer and that frequently the way I word > things is overly confrontational. Welcome! You'll fit right on on buddha-l. But seriously, you may be the product of a tragic culture. One of the things that most alarms me about academic culture (at least as it is practiced in the places I have participated in it) is that it is so often conducted in a spirit of confrontation, as if one cannot possibly be taken seriously as a scholar unless one finds negative things to say about the work of others. I once attended a PhD defense (again, I won't say where) in which one of the questions posed by an examiner was "Is there a reason why you do not say a single positive thing about any scholar who went before you?" The answer almost made me cry. It was: "I thought if I praised the work of others, people would think I was uncritical and intellectually soft." What an indictment of academic culture that a young scholar would get the idea, probably from observation, that praise is some kind of sentimentality and that not being confrontational is not playing the academic game properly. Where do students get the idea that academic work is an invitation to play hardball? (That question is rhetorical. I know the answer, and I am ashamed of it.) > And yes, I am co-organizing with Scott Mitchell (and under the guidance of > my advisor, Dr. Richard Payne) the event ?Buddhism without Borders? at the > Institute of Buddhist Studies (at the Jodo Shinshu Center in Berkeley, > CA)in March. That looks like a very exciting conference. We all wish you the best in the thankless work of organizing it. And please stick around buddha-l, if you feel so inclined. It's often painful, but try to look at it as a practice in austerity. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 7 12:34:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Dayamati) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:34:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is no more Message-ID: <69E4179C-1091-4823-9737-1F339677882A@unm.edu> Dear denizens, Since there has been a recent discussion of Western Buddhism here, some of you may be interested in hearing that the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order (FWBO) is no longer going to bear that name. The background to the change of name is that for some years now members of the order in India have not been entirely comfortable with being designated as being identified as Western. In India, where nearly half of the order members are from, the order has had an entirely different name, Trailokya Bauddha Mahasangha Sahayaka Gana, which has no reference to the order being Western. In response to an appeal that the order being given a single name everywhere in the world (or at least that every country have a translation into its local language of the One True Name), Sangharakshita has announced that from now on the Western Buddhist Order will be called the Triratna Buddhist Order, and the friends thereof will be known as Friends of the Triratna Buddhist Order (FTBO). Right away, I have a question. How do you say "Friends of the Triratna Buddhist Order" in Spanish, French or Dutch? Already in Dutch the old FWBO had two names, one used in the Netherlands and the other in Belgium; the difference in names reflects two different ways of parsing the English name. Does it mean Friends of the Western Order of Buddhists, or Friends of the Order of Western Buddhist? The Nederlanders and Belgians arrived at different answers to that question. So what kind of compound is "Triratna-buddhist-order"? Deciding that will determine how the name is translated into languages that do not form compounds in the same way as English. Such grammatical questions are simply inescapable, unless of course the decision is made to take Triratna Buddhist Order as a mantra. In the 1980s I was a member of The Zen Lotus Society. We all loved the name and never gave much thought to what it meant. It was just our collective name, sort of like the name of a hockey team. You had your Toronto Maple Leafs (even though the plural of "leaf" is "leaves"), and you had your Zen Lotus Society. But as the ZLS expanded to non-English parts of the world, such as M?xico and Qu?bec, the question arose how to translate the name into Spanish and French. And that required knowing what the syntactic relationship was between the words "Zen" and "Lotus" and "Society". Was it the Society of Zen and the Lotus, or the Society of the Zen-like Lotus, or the Lotus-like Zen, or the Lotus-like Society for Zen, or the Society called the Lotus that belongs to Zen, or the Society coming from the Lotus in Zen? Heads were scratched in befuddlement, grammarians were consulted, tea leaves were read, hexagrams were cast, astrologers were visited, quantum physics was investigated, but no clear answer emerged. Finally a decision was made to change the name from Zen Lotus Society to something more transparently grammatical and therefore translatable into Spanish and French. It seemed a wise and right thing to do. But you know what? I never could remember the name that replaced Zen Lotus Society, and to this day Zen LOtus Society is what I still call it. Erik, Henk, Stefan, your assignment, if you should choose to accept it, is to translate "Friends of the Triratna Buddhist Order" into Dutch. I would bet you three olliebollen you can't make sense of the new name. (One person on hearing the name "triratna" asked "Why could someone name a Buddhist order the friends of the Tree rotting?") yours in triratna, Day?mati (I abandoned the named Richard Philip Hayes, because I couldn't parse it) rhayes at unm.edu From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 7 17:50:58 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 17:50:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem Message-ID: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> Except that I don't read Japanese JK ---------------- Triratna?????????? in Japanese Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Jan 7 20:09:27 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 19:09:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is no more Message-ID: <172858.19586.qm@web112615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Richard Hayes wrote: ? [snip] ? <> ? =========================== In Spanish, ?Friends of the Triratna Buddhist Order? is ?Amigos de la Orden Budista Triratna?.? If you want it completely in Spanish, here are the alternatives: ? Amigos de la Orden Budista de las Tres Joyas Amigos de la Orden Budista de los Tres Refugios Amigos de la Orden Budista de los Tres Tesoros ? I sincerely hope that there will be no confusion between the Friends of the Triratna Buddhist Order and the Sanbo-Kyodan Zen organization.? ? It looks like the name of Zen Lotus Society was translated in Mexico as ?Sociedad del Loto Zen? and subsequently to ?Sociedad Budista para la Sabidur?a Compasiva? (Buddhist Society for Compassionate Wisdom -- see http://www.socbudista.org/pages/mision.html). ? ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica ? From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 7 21:03:20 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:03:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is no more Message-ID: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> There doesn't seem to be a problem in translating the new name. Except that I don't read Japanese--but some list-folk do read it. JK ---------------- Triratna?????????? in Japanese Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu Jan 7 22:15:27 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:15:27 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is no more In-Reply-To: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> References: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <9C063E845E484C0AA3CE21A07DECB5F8@comp.nus.edu.sg> Japanese: ??????? > -----Original Message----- > > Triratna?????????? in Japanese > > Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna > > Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna > > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna > > Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna > > Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu Jan 7 22:26:19 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:26:19 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is nomore In-Reply-To: <9C063E845E484C0AA3CE21A07DECB5F8@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> <9C063E845E484C0AA3CE21A07DECB5F8@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <721941A616554639840136C64ACA0964@comp.nus.edu.sg> Will also almost do in Chinese except a little tweak perhaps: ???????? > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Weng-Fai Wong > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:15 PM > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is > nomore > > Japanese: ??????? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Triratna?????????? in Japanese > > > > Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna > > > > Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna > > > > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna > > > > Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna > > > > Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 23:56:11 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 07:56:11 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem In-Reply-To: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> > > > > Triratna?????????? in Japanese > > Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna > > Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna > > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna > > Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna > > Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages > > > For Dutch: Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Triratna-orde Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde van Triratna Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde der Drie Juwelen. Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde van de Drie Juwelen. De Boeddhistische Triratnavrienden. De Triratna-vrienden. I like the last one best ('The Triratnafriends'), eventhough it deviates from the original FWBO. Triratna already suggests it's Buddhist (Jainism is not well popularized in Belgium and the Netherlands, so few will make an erroneous connection with Jainism). The name Friends of the Western Buddist Order sounds a lot like 'The Knights of the Round Table', so maybe something more up to date is better. My doughnuts. Stefan From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 8 02:42:26 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:42:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem In-Reply-To: <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B46FE02.2050904@xs4all.nl> I have little to ad to Stephan's excellent translation, except the word 'friend' stands for a male associate, a female one in German or Dutch is a Freundin or vriendin. So in order to avoid accusations of male chovinism you might want to ad 'vriendinnen'. By the way, I wonder if the word 'friend' is not outdated. Today we speak of fans or supporters, perhaps even followers. The beauty of those words is that they're sexually neutral. Another thought is, since you want to change, do you still want to be an order, where people can get initiated or nominated officially and step down if they have a beef with each other? Of course order is very desirable in these chaotic times, but is it realistic? So how about Triratnafanclub or Driejuwelengroupies or Supportersclub van de Drie Juwelen? . just trying to be a friend erik Op 8-1-2010 7:56, Stefan Detrez schreef: >> >> >> Triratna?????????? in Japanese >> >> Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna >> >> Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna >> >> Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna >> >> Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna >> >> Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages >> >> >> For Dutch: >> > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Triratna-orde > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde van Triratna > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde der Drie Juwelen. > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde van de Drie Juwelen. > De Boeddhistische Triratnavrienden. > De Triratna-vrienden. > > I like the last one best ('The Triratnafriends'), eventhough it deviates > from the original FWBO. Triratna already suggests it's Buddhist (Jainism is > not well popularized in Belgium and the Netherlands, so few will make an > erroneous connection with Jainism). The name Friends of the Western Buddist > Order sounds a lot like 'The Knights of the Round Table', so maybe something > more up to date is better. > > From leigh at deneb.org Fri Jan 8 02:22:09 2010 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 01:22:09 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] source of quote In-Reply-To: <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a601ca9044$119b5990$34d20cb0$@org> I heard that some medieval Buddhist writer said something like: there are only two people in India who can recognize true Buddhism, and when I travel to Nepal next month there will only be one. If this is true, what is the correct statement and source? thanks. From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 01:05:43 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 01:05:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem In-Reply-To: <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 07:56:11 +0100, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Triratna-orde This seems like a natural way to interpret the compound. The emphasis here, I take it, is on Triratna simply being the name of the order. Just as there is a hotel named the Watergate, there is a Buddhist order named the Triratna. > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde van Triratna > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde der Drie Juwelen. > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde van de Drie Juwelen. All these seem to capture well what Sangharakshita hopes the name will mean to people. I tend to prefer the latter two, simply because I tend to like names that are all in one language rather than een verr?ckt m?lange van different lenguajes. > De Boeddhistische Triratnavrienden. That would be a good name for those of us who can't follow orders. > De Triratna-vrienden. > I like the last one best ('The Triratnafriends'), >eventhough it deviates > from the original FWBO. Triratna already suggests it's >Buddhist The official name of the Quakers is 'The Religious Society of Friends (Quaker).' In this age of abbreviations, that would be RSF(Q). It took the Quakers a generation or so to arrive at a good name. They first called themselves something like 'The Children of Light,' but eventually they thought it would be good to have something that sounded more adult. Then they got the idea of calling themselves 'The Society of Friends,' but thst sounded a little too much like a lonely hearts club or a dating service. So they added the word 'Religious.' People outside the Religious Society of Friends called them quakers by way of poking fun at the habit many of them had of trembling when they spoke up in meetings for worship. So the name grew into a parenthetical monstrosity. If anyone had asked me for suggestions for new names for the FWBO, I might have suggested The Buddhist Society of Friends. And just as the Quakers eventually took a term meant to be an insult and wore the insult as a badge of honor, the new name for the FWBO might have been The Religious Society of Friends (Dharmachari Cult). Another I quite like, because it brings out th Protestant flavor of the organization, is The Reformed Anglican Buddhist Order. Just as there is an Anglican Church of Canada and an Anglican Church of Nigeria, there could be a Reformed Anglican Buddhist Order of India and so on. For reasons I do not quite understand, that name has not met with widespread approval among my co-religionists. > The name Friends of >the Western Buddist > Order sounds a lot like 'The Knights of the Round >Table', so maybe something > more up to date is better. I had not thought of that. Now that you mention it, I am feeling a little drawn to a name like The Buddhist Order of the Knights of Saint George. (What would that be? De Boeddhistiche Orde van de Ridders van Sint Joris?) Yes, I think that's just the sort of name that appeals most deeply to my complex sense of reverence, absurdity and chivalry. It would be pleasing, of course, if I could work in some references to my Maoist past. How about The Running Dog Lackeys of the Buddha (Coyotes)? I may reserve that name for the order when New Mexico throws off the oppressive yoke of yankee imperialism and becomes an independent people's socialist Buddhist republic (a move that will require ridding the land of Republicans. And who can rid a land of Republicans better than Boeddhistiche ridders?) > My doughnuts. I can see I owe you three oliebollen as a reward for peforming the impossible task of translating Friends of the Triratna Buddhist Order into Flemish. I'll bring the bolas de aceite to you next time I visit Antwerpen. Good knight to all of you beloved denizens, Richard, the Red Buddhist Knight of Saint George From shian at kmspks.org Fri Jan 8 00:52:45 2010 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:52:45 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is nomore In-Reply-To: References: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> <9C063E845E484C0AA3CE21A07DECB5F8@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B814DEEA7@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> Hmmm... but all ?????? adhere to???? for refuge anyway. Methinks using the Triple Gem as 'branding' is somewhat weak due to its generic nature. -----Original Message----- From: Weng-Fai Wong [mailto:wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg] Sent: Friday, 08 January, 2010 1:26 PM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is nomore Will also almost do in Chinese except a little tweak perhaps: ???????????????? > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Weng-Fai Wong > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:15 PM > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is > nomore > > Japanese: ?????????????? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Triratna???????????k???????? in Japanese > > > > Amis de l'ordre de bouddhiste de Triratna > > > > Amigos de la pedido del budista de Triratna > > > > Vrienden van de Boeddhistische Orde Triratna > > > > Amigos da ordem do budista de Triratna > > > > Freunde des triratna Buddhistauftrages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From mike at lamrim.org.uk Fri Jan 8 09:53:36 2010 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:53:36 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem In-Reply-To: References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Once the name is sorted, there is still a logo to be discussed. And then there is the layout of the printed stationery ... -- Metta Mike Austin From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 10:56:39 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:56:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is nomore In-Reply-To: <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B814DEEA7@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> References: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> <9C063E845E484C0AA3CE21A07DECB5F8@comp.nus.edu.sg> <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B814DEEA7@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> Message-ID: <6323984B-011E-4669-87AC-EC24FC414E4A@unm.edu> On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:52 AM, [DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an wrote: > Hmmm... but all ??? adhere to?? for refuge anyway. Methinks using the Triple Gem as 'branding' is somewhat weak due to its generic nature. True enough. If I'm not mistaken (which would be a rare event indeed), one of the reasons for choosing 'triratna' is precisely that it is generic. It is what all Buddhists have in common. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 13:43:01 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:43:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem In-Reply-To: References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BD9A24F-5506-467E-883D-C8FC812166BB@unm.edu> On Jan 8, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Mike Austin wrote: > Once the name is sorted, there is still a logo to be discussed. And then > there is the layout of the printed stationery ... ...not the mention the webpage, the blog sites, and the monthly newsletter. It's no wonder the Buddha had to meet once a fortnight with his monks to sort all this stuff out. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 13:45:24 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 13:45:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nomenclature blues: "Western Buddhist Order" is nomore In-Reply-To: <13093_1262980890_4B478F1A_13093_3197_1_6323984B-011E-4669-87AC-EC24FC414E4A@unm.edu> References: <0B9F06299E844772B4D7252AC67E50E8@OPTIPLEX> <9C063E845E484C0AA3CE21A07DECB5F8@comp.nus.edu.sg> <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B814DEEA7@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> <13093_1262980890_4B478F1A_13093_3197_1_6323984B-011E-4669-87AC-EC24FC414E4A@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:52 AM, [DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an wrote: > >> Hmmm... but all ??? adhere to?? for refuge anyway. Methinks using the Triple Gem as 'branding' is somewhat weak due to its generic nature. > > True enough. If I'm not mistaken (which would be a rare event indeed), one of the reasons for choosing 'triratna' is precisely that it is generic. It is what all Buddhists have in common. So maybe the new name for the old FWBO should be Buddies of the Generic Buddhist Outfit (BuGBO). From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 14:06:01 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:06:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to change religions? Message-ID: Dear denizens, I'll be the first to confess I never watch Fox News. I just can't take all that fair and balanced reporting. I much prefer the prejudiced and skewed reporting on places like NPR and PBS. Last night as I was getting my daily fix of Amy Goodman, I heard a sound clip from Brit Hume, a senior political analyst for Fox News. It refers to Tiger Woods, an alleged golf player who was reportedly involved in a sex scandal. (I doubt many buddha-l people follow golf, so I assume none of you know who Tiger Woods are.) Here is what Brit Hume (probably no relation to David) said on a Fox News television broadcast on Sunday night: "The Tiger Woods that emerges once the news value dies out of this scandal, the extent to which he can recover, it seems to me, depends on his faith. He?s said to be a Buddhist. I don?t think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith. So my message to Tiger would be, 'Tiger, turn your faith---turn to the Christian faith, and you can make a total recovery and be a great example to the world.'" http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/7/headlines#11 What Brit Hume completely overlooks is that Christianity provides no practices effective at liberating people from playing golf. So my advice would be. "Tiger, remain a Buddhist. Only this time, try actually following the precepts. Then maybe in the next life you'll be reborn as a human being instead of a tiger." Always ready to give advice to golfers and other damaged people, I remain Richard P. Hayes (the P stands for Putter) From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 8 14:44:32 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:44:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to change religions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B47A740.8030107@cola.iges.org> I have to admit that IMO Brad Warner has given by far the best response to this whole business: "As for Tiger, I really have no advice for him. Maybe he could advise me on how to pick up girls!" Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > Dear denizens, > > I'll be the first to confess I never watch Fox News. I just can't take all that fair and balanced reporting. I much prefer the prejudiced and skewed reporting on places like NPR and PBS. Last night as I was getting my daily fix of Amy Goodman, I heard a sound clip from Brit Hume, a senior political analyst for Fox News. It refers to Tiger Woods, an alleged golf player who was reportedly involved in a sex scandal. (I doubt many buddha-l people follow golf, so I assume none of you know who Tiger Woods are.) Here is what Brit Hume (probably no relation to David) said on a Fox News television broadcast on Sunday night: > > "The Tiger Woods that emerges once the news value dies out of this scandal, the extent to which he can recover, it seems to me, depends on his faith. He?s said to be a Buddhist. I don?t think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith. So my message to Tiger would be, 'Tiger, turn your faith---turn to the Christian faith, and you can make a total recovery and be a great example to the world.'" > http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/7/headlines#11 > > What Brit Hume completely overlooks is that Christianity provides no practices effective at liberating people from playing golf. So my advice would be. "Tiger, remain a Buddhist. Only this time, try actually following the precepts. Then maybe in the next life you'll be reborn as a human being instead of a tiger." > > Always ready to give advice to golfers and other damaged people, I remain > Richard P. Hayes (the P stands for Putter) > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 14:51:44 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:51:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to change religions? In-Reply-To: <4B47A740.8030107@cola.iges.org> References: <4B47A740.8030107@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > I have to admit that IMO Brad Warner has given by far the best response > to this whole business: > > "As for Tiger, I really have no advice for him. Maybe he could advise me > on how to pick up girls!" First, make a billion dollars. From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 8 14:57:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:57:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western Self, Asian Other In-Reply-To: <4B420C3F.70409@gmail.com> References: <4B420C3F.70409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > Please, pleeeeease, dear members, learn not to top-post. If it's unclear > why that's irritating, try to receive Buddha-L in digest form and you'll > see how annoying that practice is. Perhaps I should change the settings of contributors who top-post to receive buddha-l in digest form for a while. The problem is that a really dedicated top-poster is liable to reply to the entire digest with a top-posted comment like "I completely agree!" Richard From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 8 15:08:16 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:08:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Time to change religions? Message-ID: <28466DAB7F4F43F2B07A1F1FCD483F6D@OPTIPLEX> http://gobeyondwords.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/one-city-author-eth an-nichtern-on-cnn/ Ethan Nichtern on CNN One City Author Responds to Brit Hume Yesterday One City author Ethan Nichtern made an appearance in the CNN Newsroom with Rick Sanchez to provide a Buddhist perspective to the recent Brit Hume statements about Tiger Woods, Christianity, and Buddhism. Ethan Nichtern is the charismatic and creative force behind New York's Interdependence Project (theidproject.com). In One City he guides the reader through the dynamic interdependence that is everywhere in the urban jungle. Click here to see the video. http://videos.mediaite.com/video/CNN-Rick-Sanchez-Educates-Us-An Eventually Sanchez gets around to interviewing EthanNichtern about Brit Hume's remarks. From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 8 15:47:05 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 23:47:05 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to change religions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B47B5E9.3010806@xs4all.nl> Op 8-1-2010 22:06, Richard Hayes schreef: > "The Tiger Woods that emerges once the news value dies out of this scandal, the extent to which he can recover, it seems to me, depends on his faith. He?s said to be a Buddhist. I don?t think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith. So my message to Tiger would be, 'Tiger, turn your faith---turn to the Christian faith, and you can make a total recovery and be a great example to the world.'" > http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/7/headlines#11 > > What Brit Hume completely overlooks is that Christianity provides no practices effective at liberating people from playing golf. So my advice would be. "Tiger, remain a Buddhist. Only this time, try actually following the precepts. Then maybe in the next life you'll be reborn as a human being instead of a tiger." > > Well, if you're doing a practice trying to bring your balls as close to the hole as possible, you're in for complications. I remember Hegel's piece about the real Christian compassion and the savage rage in the Bhagavad Giita. Today we would say 'well, it's an opinion and it's a free country'. I think however that we Buddhists have an offer that Tiger cannot refuse: rituals that can eliminate as much bad karma as grains of sand on the banks of the Mississipi and tantrism: remaining respectable and visualising loads of dakini's around, even merging with them on occasion. And with his swing he'll be great with vajra and bell, perhaps he could become a lama. There's a Chinese expression for 'so so' that is 'horse, horse, tiger, tiger' I'm sure that refers to mr. Woods relation to the Tibetan Wind Horse. erik From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 8 17:41:58 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 19:41:58 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to change religions? In-Reply-To: References: <4B47A740.8030107@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <4B47D0D6.9000200@cola.iges.org> They say the first billion is the hard part. Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > > >> I have to admit that IMO Brad Warner has given by far the best response >> to this whole business: >> >> "As for Tiger, I really have no advice for him. Maybe he could advise me >> on how to pick up girls!" >> > > First, make a billion dollars. > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 01:49:32 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:49:32 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ii don't see that there's any problem In-Reply-To: References: <615C9A2D810744BDBCC6C8BC0B078812@OPTIPLEX> <4526ba441001072256q6ae35721xefec76db28f222ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4526ba441001090049r3d139069y86331e871d81ab2@mail.gmail.com> > > > The name Friends of > >the Western Buddist > > Order sounds a lot like 'The Knights of the Round > >Table', so maybe something > > more up to date is better. > > I had not thought of that. Now that you mention it, I am > feeling a little drawn to a name like The Buddhist Order > of the Knights of Saint George. (What would that be? De > Boeddhistiche Orde van de Ridders van Sint Joris?) Yes, I > think that's just the sort of name that appeals most > deeply to my complex sense of reverence, absurdity and > chivalry. > > And since we're lifting the academic level of discussion to unprecedented heights, why not try 'The Buddhist Rotary'. It has that very whiff of exclusivity, cakravartinivity and flamboyancy, necessary for succes and world dominion. If you really want to emphasize the knightly character of the club (why not try 'The Buddha Bar Society'), we might as well call it 'The Triratna Kamikaze'. 'European Buddhist Society' sound good. 'Society of Westernized Buddhism'. 'The Buddhist Bond.' 'United Cherishers of the Buddhavacana'. 'Western Bond of Patronizers of Buddhism'. 'Buddheurope', 'Readers of the Western Buddha'. 'Why did the Bodhidharma go to the West?-Club'. 'Buddhassociates. Inc.' 'The Western Buddhist Community'. It would be pleasing, of course, if I could work in some > references to my Maoist past. How about The Running Dog > Lackeys of the Buddha (Coyotes)? I may reserve that name > for the order when New Mexico throws off the oppressive > yoke of yankee imperialism and becomes an independent > people's socialist Buddhist republic (a move that will > require ridding the land of Republicans. And who can rid a > land of Republicans better than Boeddhistiche ridders?) > > Maybe the 'White Crane Used To Spread Its Wings'-Buddhists. I can see I owe you three oliebollen as a reward for > peforming the impossible task of translating Friends of > the Triratna Buddhist Order into Flemish. I'll bring the > bolas de aceite to you next time I visit Antwerpen. > > You do that. I'll be waiting with politically correct coffee. Stefan, catuskotic Buddhist. From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Mon Jan 11 21:00:37 2010 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:00:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <625681.67237.qm@web63201.mail.re1.yahoo.com> hello all, A friend asked me a question, which I think some here may be able to answer. Here is what he wrote: From leigh at deneb.org Tue Jan 12 01:04:42 2010 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:04:42 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] D. T. Suzuki translation of Blue Cliff Record koans 1 & 2 In-Reply-To: <4B47D0D6.9000200@cola.iges.org> References: <4B47A740.8030107@cola.iges.org> <4B47D0D6.9000200@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <00af01ca935d$ed7e7610$c87b6230$@org> Kyozan Joshu Sazaki Roshi is looking for the translation by D. T. Suzuki of the first two koans of the Blue Cliff Record. He says he read them once long ago, but does not know where they have been published. (Some later koans from the collection have apparently been published in Suzuki's Zen and Japanese Culture, New York: Pantheon Books, 1959.) From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Tue Jan 12 01:29:50 2010 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:29:50 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha In-Reply-To: <625681.67237.qm@web63201.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <625681.67237.qm@web63201.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B4C32FE.2090103@arcor.de> Am 12.01.2010 05:00, schrieb Mitchell Ginsberg: >> From a Mahayana / Vajrayana Buddhist viewpoint only, I wish to have the most >> accurate answer possible to the following questions. It would be nice to know >> the authority for the answers. I.E., sutra, or the words of a well-known >> Buddhist teacher, etc. Dear friend, according to the teaching of the Buddha you have to find out by your own! <--- Sleeping Buddhas, Awaken! "So Rinpoche," she asked, "if these grand old living Buddha-lamas are as perfectly enlightened, awakened, omniscent, skillful, powerful, and compassionate as we think they are, why don't they just wake us up from the sleep of delusion?" "Who's asleep?" the master replied. ---> Surya Das, The Snow Lion's Turquoise Mane. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-1.4.2 From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 14:24:49 2010 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <358783.61081.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> hello Bernhard and all, To the question: Am 12.01.2010 05:00, schrieb Mitchell Ginsberg: >> From a Mahayana / Vajrayana Buddhist viewpoint only, I wish to have the most >> accurate answer possible to the following questions. It would be nice to know >> the authority for the answers. I.E., sutra, or the words of a well-known >> Buddhist teacher, etc. you replied: Dear friend, according to the teaching of the Buddha you have to find out by your own! <--- Sleeping Buddhas, Awaken! "So Rinpoche," she asked, "if these grand old living Buddha-lamas are as perfectly enlightened, awakened, omniscent, skillful, powerful, and compassionate as we think they are, why don't they just wake us up from the sleep of delusion?" "Who's asleep?" the master replied. ---> Surya Das, The Snow Lion's Turquoise Mane. in metta, bernhard http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ Of course, this could be an answer to any question asked about Buddhism whatsoever. The issue was not about how worldlings and others come to know anything (or come to awakening) but what omniscience or other deep awareness allows, and why these omniscient individuals are not communicating more and not giving more helpful information than they do (as I understand my friend's questioning). thank you. Mitchell ========== Homepage (updated 27 December 09): http://jinavamsa.com See also http://jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 20:33:51 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:33:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] D. T. Suzuki translation of Blue Cliff Record In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <791195.70857.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You probably saw this already, but just in case:?? ? Suzuki, Daisetz, T., ?On the Hekigan Roku (Blue Cliff Records) with a Translation of ?Case One? ?, Eastern Buddhist, New Series, i. No. 1, (September 1965), 5-21.? ? See:? http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article3653 ? The fonts are very small and pale. ? Hope this helps. ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica ? ? From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Wed Jan 13 02:12:55 2010 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:12:55 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha In-Reply-To: <358783.61081.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <358783.61081.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B4D8E97.7030704@arcor.de> Am 12.01.2010 22:24, schrieb Mitchell Ginsberg: >>> From a Mahayana / Vajrayana Buddhist viewpoint only, I wish to have the most >>> accurate answer possible to the following questions. It would be nice to know >>> the authority for the answers. I.E., sutra, or the words of a well-known >>> Buddhist teacher, etc. > ... The issue was not about how worldlings and others come to know > anything (or come to awakening) but what omniscience or other deep > awareness allows, and why these omniscient individuals are not > communicating more and not giving more helpful information than they > do (as I understand my friend's questioning). Hello Mitchell, if your friend is more interested in miracles than in awakening, than this stupid old man can be of no help. But I think, if your friend will be walking around the earth in search for miracles, he'll be wasting his precious lifetime an will not cease his suffering (dukkha). In the end, he might find, that there are no miracles and that omniscience for the Buddha himself meant first and foremost, that he deeply understood the Four Noble Truths: "Earlier and now also I declare - suffering (dukkha) and its cessation." Majjhima Nik?ya #22 So why not begin practising the precious Buddhadharma right now. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-1.4.2 From leigh at deneb.org Wed Jan 13 04:37:20 2010 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:37:20 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] D. T. Suzuki translation of Blue Cliff Record In-Reply-To: <791195.70857.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <791195.70857.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011d01ca9444$cb9691d0$62c3b570$@org> That article title on The Eastern Buddhist website index doesn't include the mention of the translation, so that is a big help. The next issue has case 2 as well. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Masis Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 19:34 To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] D. T. Suzuki translation of Blue Cliff Record You probably saw this already, but just in case: Suzuki, Daisetz, T., ?On the Hekigan Roku (Blue Cliff Records) with a Translation of ?Case One? ?, Eastern Buddhist, New Series, i. No. 1, (September 1965), 5-21. See: http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article3653 The fonts are very small and pale. Hope this helps. Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Jan 13 08:31:27 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:31:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) Message-ID: <670133.16947.qm@web112610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Bernhard, ? Practicing the Buddhadharma may take many different forms for many different people.? Mitchell?s friend has every right to practice it in his own way and to have curiosity about issues that?leave you cold. ? Natalie Quli seems to have been describing Buddha-L on page 11 of her recently-discussed article:? ? "?the extolling of reason and rationality; a rejection of ritual, ?superstition? and cosmology; ? the tendency to define Buddhism as a philosophy rather than a religion; ? and rejection of ?spirit? or ?folk? religion as mere cultural accretions to be separated from the rational core of Buddhism." ? A couple of years ago after a brief discussion on Buddha-L, there was an appeal for respect regarding Paul Williams? conversion to Catholicism; on the other hand, I have seen no similar appeals?regarding folks who might believe in rebirth or reincarnation, or use mantras and dharanis as part of their practice.? Even belief in miracles might have a place in some folks? practice. ?That is their right. ?I would like to see more tolerance and respect for this on Buddha-L. ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 13 11:02:50 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:02:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <670133.16947.qm@web112610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <670133.16947.qm@web112610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A517171-CF37-40E8-A13D-C26D33F77E83@unm.edu> On Jan 13, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Katherine Masis wrote: > "?the extolling of reason and rationality; a rejection of ritual, ?superstition? and cosmology; ? the tendency to define Buddhism as a philosophy rather than a religion; ? and rejection of ?spirit? or ?folk? religion as mere cultural accretions to be separated from the rational core of Buddhism." That's an interesting observation. I think it is definitely an accurate description of me, but I don't see it as generally true of contributors to buddha-l. I wonder how many other buddha-hellions would think that description accurate of them. > A couple of years ago after a brief discussion on Buddha-L, there was an appeal for respect regarding Paul Williams? conversion to Catholicism; on the other hand, I have seen no similar appeals regarding folks who might believe in rebirth or reincarnation, or use mantras and dharanis as part of their practice. Good heavens, you don't expect us to appeal for respect for every kind of irrational sloppy thinking in the world, do you? > I would like to see more tolerance and respect for this on Buddha-L. There would probably be more tolerance and respect on buddha-l if we didn't have so many Republicans on the list. Richard From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Jan 13 12:10:13 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:10:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) Message-ID: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ? >>>Richard Hayes ===Katherine Masis ? >>>That's an interesting observation. I think it is definitely an accurate description of me, but I don't see it as generally true of contributors to buddha-l. I wonder how many other buddha-hellions would think that description accurate of them. ? ===I see it as generally true of the "politically correct" way to post as buddha-l.? But I?ll be very glad to be wrong about this, especially since there are other things I enjoy about buddha-l. ? >>>Good heavens, you don't expect us to appeal for respect for every kind of irrational sloppy thinking in the world, do you? ? ===No, of course not.? I didn?t even have that in mind.? Beliefs and practices different from ours should be respected?such as the examples I provided in my post. ? >>>There would probably be more tolerance and respect on buddha-l if we didn't have so many Republicans on the list. ? ===I?ll wager there aren?t that many?probably from zero to three on the entire list.? In fact, let?s take a poll!? ? Katherine From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 13 12:24:09 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:24:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E999580-7807-4D95-8730-26392C0136CB@unm.edu> On Jan 13, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > >>>> There would probably be more tolerance and respect on buddha-l if we didn't have so many Republicans on the list. > > ===I?ll wager there aren?t that many?probably from zero to three on the entire list. In fact, let?s take a poll! That just shows you how dangerous Republicans are! Just three of them, out of 500 subscribers, turn this whole list into a hotbed of sectarianism, intolerance and prejudice. Richard From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Wed Jan 13 13:31:49 2010 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:31:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hello all, Thank you for your replies. Actually, there are few issues being raised here. The core of my friend's questions were not about miracles, but about how to understand the fact that those who are supposedly awakened (esp. in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, I know he is thinking of) and have a vision most humans don't, do not give this information out for the well being of the many (esp. considering the bodhisattva vows that are core to those practices). And this particular person has actually practiced quite intensely for years, having spent years in India in Tibetan Buddhist communities. He does believe that there are many levels of process (psychological, personal, interpersonal, etc.) that we are usually not aware of. He has seen his teachers with great subtle understanding and awareness that inspires him deeply, and also has him wonder about issues that he asked me about recently, and some of which I've passed on here, at his request. Thanks for your attentive replies. Mitchell ========== Homepage (updated 27 December 09): http://jinavamsa.com See also http://jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 13 13:57:57 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:57:57 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > The core of my friend's questions were not about miracles, but about how to understand the fact that those who are supposedly awakened (esp. in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, I know he is thinking of) and have a vision most humans don't, do not give this information out for the well being of the many (esp. considering the bodhisattva vows that are core to those practices). I cannot claim to be an authority on anything having to do with being awakened, but I can offer a guess. (My main contribution to Buddhist studies over the years has been to say things so outrageously stupid that others hasten to correct them.) I knew how to sharpen a knife for years before I taught my son how to do it. My reason for holding this information from him was that I worried he might come to some harm if he had the information before we was capable of showing me that he could be careful. Similar considerations are, I would guess, at work when teachers decide which practices to teach their disciples. Not everyone is ready for everything all at once. Now that I have made a crazy guess, maybe someone who really knows will prove me wrong, and then we'll all be wiser. (On the other hand, people who know the answer may decide that the rest of us are not mature enough to know it yet.) Richard From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Wed Jan 13 14:38:29 2010 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:38:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> On Jan 13, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > He does believe that there are many levels of process > (psychological, personal, interpersonal, etc.) that we are usually > not aware of. He has seen his teachers with great subtle > understanding and awareness that inspires him deeply, and also has > him wonder about issues that he asked me about recently, and some of > which I've passed on here, at his request. > I'm not much of a buddhist adept myself, but I do think that many of us who work with people in the three realms described above can develop subtle levels of understanding and awareness based solely on attending to that what arises from the human psyche and its manifestation in thought and action, even to the level of being able seemingly 'predict' events. I don't think sensitivity to individual spiritual or psychic needs requires a lot more than proper training, personal experience (introspection and individuation) and a willingness to be open with one's self I've always felt that good leaders, teachers, and counselors generally would qualify as bodhisattvas on the basis of demonstrating generosity, ethics and integrity, patience and understanding, energy and effort, self-reflection and clarity, in a wise and open-hearted manner (thereby excluding all post-moderate Republicans) I'm not sure that the religious or miraculous is at all required (tho I wish to god that someone would intervene with those same PMRs). From alberto.tod at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 20:20:00 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:05:00 +0545 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4E8D60.505@gmail.com> Katherine Masis, quoting Quli, wrote: >Natalie Quli seems to have been describing Buddha-L on page 11 of her recently-discussed article:? ? "?the extolling of reason and rationality; a rejection of ritual, ?superstition? and cosmology; ? the tendency to define Buddhism as a philosophy rather than a religion; ? and rejection of ?spirit? or ?folk? religion as mere cultural accretions to be separated from the rational core of Buddhism."< I haven't read the article, but in isolation I wonder how much of this quote is true nowadays, especially if you refer it to Buddha-(Hel)l. I like to put it more in terms of preference. There are numerous scholars of Buddhism, as well as interested non-professionals, who are attracted to the philosophical aspects of this or that Buddhist school. I'm one of them. I also know perfectly well that there's a lot more to Buddhism than this, and so do my colleagues. Simply, I don't write about some of the other aspects that Quli mentions because I'm either not interested enough or competent to do so. But I know they are there, and I don't reject them. To conclude, I'm not sure that the quote above is true nowadays, though as I said, I haven't read Quli's article so I have no idea about what time-frame she is referring to. In particular, I haven't seen any of that rejection here on Buddha-l. Failure to mention or being interested in some aspects of Buddhism doesn't mean rejecting them, though I understand that it could give such impression. Best, Alberto Todeschini From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 13 22:55:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:55:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha In-Reply-To: <4B4E8D60.505@gmail.com> References: <4B4E8D60.505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E10B6F2-6C89-4F32-95DE-4CD072D8A8F3@unm.edu> On Jan 13, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > There are numerous scholars > of Buddhism, as well as interested non-professionals, who are attracted > to the philosophical aspects of this or that Buddhist school. I'm one of > them. I also know perfectly well that there's a lot more to Buddhism > than this, and so do my colleagues. Simply, I don't write about some of > the other aspects that Quli mentions because I'm either not interested > enough or competent to do so. But I know they are there, and I don't > reject them. Very nicely said, Alberto! It might be worth adding that there are, and probably always have been, Buddhists for whom reading texts, thinking about what the texts mean, trying to assess whether what the texts say is true and useful, and then trying to put what they deem to be true and useful into effect in their daily lives, is their main practice. Those activities all are part of what we call philosophy in the West. So it's probably safe to say that "doing" philosophy is a legitimate mainstream Buddhist practice, and has been since Sariputta came on board. When students ask me (as they always seem to do) what Buddhist practice N?g?rjuna or Dharmak?rti did, I say "They wrote texts." The curious student usually laughs, thinking I have made a joke, and then asks again what *practice* they did. I repeat "They wrote texts. That is the only practice we know for sure that they did, because we have the evidence for it right in our hands." The student typically says "But did they *meditate*? What meditation did they do?" And I explain that meditation is just a four-syllable word for thinking, and it is obvious that these guys thought. Otherwise they could not have written all those texts. To write a text that people study for the next two thousand years is an achievement that would be hard to pull off without a fair amount of premeditation. I have known several Buddhist monks from Asia who had almost no active interest at all in either rituals or relics, but who spent as much time as circumstances would allow reading, discussing and writing texts. They simply let other people do rituals if other people felt that some rituals needed to be done. And if someone in the village had a drinking problem and was beating his wife, there might be yet another monk who would do a bit of pastoral care if asked. Not everyone needs to do all things, but somehow everything seems to get done. It seems to me that buddha-l is based on the distribution of email, and mostly what email can be used to do is distribute words. It's hard to use email as a medium for silent meditation or as an implement for conducting rituals or as a venue in which to plant a garden or cook a pot of rice, so we don't do much of that on buddha-l. It would, however, be rash to conclude that people who write to buddha-l never take hikes, plant gardens, cook food or wash their bowls, let alone that they have contempt for such activities. And even if someone *did* spend all of her time writing to buddha-l, it would be silly to think (and impudent to say) that in so doing she was not sincerely practicing Buddhism. Richard Hayes From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 14 01:51:05 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:51:05 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> Op 13-1-2010 22:38, Timothy Smith schreef: > On Jan 13, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > > >> He does believe that there are many levels of process >> (psychological, personal, interpersonal, etc.) that we are usually >> not aware of. He has seen his teachers with great subtle >> understanding and awareness that inspires him deeply, and also has >> him wonder about issues that he asked me about recently, and some of >> which I've passed on here, at his request. >> > I've always felt that good leaders, teachers, and counselors generally > would qualify as bodhisattvas on the basis of demonstrating > generosity, ethics and integrity, patience and understanding, energy > and effort, self-reflection and clarity, in a wise and open-hearted > manner (thereby excluding all post-moderate Republicans) I'm not sure > that the religious or miraculous is at all required (tho I wish to god > that someone would intervene with those same PMRs). > I think that one can even be a bodhisattva and a republican. The standard conception of an upperhuman is a person who is perfect in every possible sense. This may be wrong. Someone can have a perfect character, but be utterly stupid, one can be an expert in texts, but very dogmatic. I admire the Dalai Lama, but I'm sure he made some serious mistake and that he is biased because of his education. Persons may be multilayered and especially now in these postmodern times it is difficult to tell exactly what someone is and what not. I think that Buddhism is very naive in this respect and a task of Buddhologists and philosophers is to bring some wisdom here. erik From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu Jan 14 02:05:35 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:05:35 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man... In-Reply-To: <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> Sorry... stuff like this makes me break my metta-karuna-equanimity... http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html W.F. Wong From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 14 02:18:26 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:18:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <670133.16947.qm@web112610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <670133.16947.qm@web112610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B4EE162.6060003@xs4all.nl> Op 13-1-2010 16:31, Katherine Masis schreef: > A couple of years ago after a brief discussion on Buddha-L, there was an appeal for respect regarding Paul Williams? conversion to Catholicism; on the other hand, I have seen no similar appeals regarding folks who might believe in rebirth or reincarnation, or use mantras and dharanis as part of their practice. Even belief in miracles might have a place in some folks? practice. That is their right. I would like to see more tolerance and respect for this on Buddha-L. > > I'm not a supporter of natural rights, but you could rephrase this as 'it is what people do and there's no reason to hold that against them'. Here I agree. It is obvious that there's no God according to science, but some scientists still go to church every week. To me this proves that the existence of God is not at stake during prayer or mass. I seldom come in churches, but I've never heard of discussions about the existence of God taking place there. There's a lot of pretending in religion, as there is in science and in all of human activity. This is not wrong or bad, but some make the mistake of mixing different discourses. If you're studying the life of the Buddha and you get your belief in the Buddha's eternal existence in the way of the research, or if you write that he became a Buddha after aeons of practicing good karma, you're a lousy buddhologist. So my dentist can believe in miracles if he must, but not while I'm in his chair! -- Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 07:47:27 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:47:27 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <57868441-AC75-4B6A-A7A4-C3EC1A612CAB@unm.edu> On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:51 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > I think that one can even be a bodhisattva and a republican. OK, Erik. That does it. I'm having you admitted to a mental hospital. It's for your own good. From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Jan 14 07:55:46 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:55:46 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man... In-Reply-To: <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> Don't just get mad, get even. Donate to Vodou Aid. Seriously: http://vodouaid.org/ Curt Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Sorry... stuff like this makes me break my metta-karuna-equanimity... > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html > > W.F. Wong > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 07:59:15 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:59:15 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man... In-Reply-To: <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2010, at 2:05 AM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Sorry... stuff like this makes me break my metta-karuna-equanimity... > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html You have to learn to read between the lines. It's called hermeneutics. Robertson was LITERALLY saying that the Haitians made a pact with the devil to help them become liberated from the French during the time of Napoleon III, and that the devil is now seeking repayment. But don't forget that Robertson is a prophet and that prophets speak metaphorically. What Robertson is REALLY saying is that the United States has made a pact with the devil to help them destroy terrorists and abortionists, and that the devil will demand payment by causing global warming. Robertson's message is all in code. It is an appeal to stand behind Al Gore and to urge the US government to begin taking climate change seriously. I'm a little surprised that you didn't see that, Weng-Fai. Richard From roger60 at golden-wheel.net Mon Jan 11 21:17:59 2010 From: roger60 at golden-wheel.net (Roger60) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:17:59 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" In-Reply-To: References: <672995.53554.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B3E3100.1000004@cola.iges.org> <50FABFB9EA2249F8B7ECF8C604F5C747@OPTIPLEX> <000601ca8b37$d6ba0da0$842e28e0$@org> Message-ID: <000e01ca933e$3b9d4b20$b2d7e160$@net> Well this short article could help some people who do not know anything about Tibet apart from the various movies ("Kundun", "Seven years in Tibet" and others) that they could have seen. So I sent the link to some friends and family members, thanks for letting us know about it ! Roger Garin-Michaud Buddhist Bibliography February 2010 update: http://www.golden-wheel.net/buddbib.html -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Bankei Sent: samedi 2 janvier 2010 09:47 To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] "Western Self, Asian Other" Hello Alex. I just read that short article you referred to and did not feel it came across as 'patronizing contempt' at all. Thanks for the link Bankei 2010/1/2 Alex Wilding > I never did read "Prisoners of Shangri-La, so I can't comment directly. > There is, however, a reason why I decided not to invest that much of my > short life in it: the patronizing contempt that Lopez shows for his > audience > in the piece "7 things you didn't know about Tibet" > (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493105.html). > I am not a totally ignorant, stupid twerp, and am not drawn to reading a > book by an author who assumes that I am. > > All the best > Alex Wilding > Blog: Dang Zang > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 11:16:08 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:16:08 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief [was: Stupid old man...] In-Reply-To: <4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> <4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> On Jan 14, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Don't just get mad, get even. Donate to Vodou Aid. Seriously: > http://vodouaid.org/ Thanks for that link. (It will look good on our annual report to Homeland Security that buddha-l is supporting Voodoo.) Other ways to contribute to disaster relief in Haiti that our resident bodhisattvas may want to consider: https://secure2.convio.net/afsc/site/Donation2?idb=0&df_id=1040&1040.donation=form1&s_src=Crisis https://secure.americanhumanist.org/SSLPage.aspx?pid=288 https://secure.ajws.org/site/Donation2?df_id=3460&3460.donation=form1 http://www.redcross.org/ If you are American and would like to urge your representatives to provide for refugee status for Haitians in the USA, go to http://capwiz.com/fconl/issues/alert/?alertid=14551696 From franz at mind2mind.net Thu Jan 14 12:14:43 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:14:43 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Quli and Imminent Critique Message-ID: <803E0507-9659-49F9-9B1A-1D28172F25EA@mind2mind.net> Gang, Since the original thread on Natalie Quli's article has played out, I'm taking the liberty of starting a new one. I was struck by one thing she said in her post here on buddha-l and can't resist commenting on it. Quli writes, > I did not go into a detailed list of names of people who espouse > such a view [that scholars fail to acknowledge the threads of > Orientalism and its inverse in their work] in the article because... > I?m more interested in getting people to pay attention to how these > issues may play out in their own and others? work than in attacking > specific scholars. Precisely. This is the work of critical scholarship and I feel the proper point of Quli's pen in my own scholarly hide. For example, in the paper I'm currently preparing for the "Buddhism without Borders" conference that Ms. Quli and Scott Mitchell are organizing, I attend to the White Plum Asanga, the organization of dharma teachers in the lineage of Zen Center of Los Angeles's founding teacher Maezumi Roshi. That is all very well and good but it privileges convert or modernist (read: European-American) Buddhist practice. I suppose it is permissible, as just one scholar, to so privilege this sort of practice. But what when the entire field does so? Is it not the responsibility of scholars to promote balance within the field so it reflects and properly examines the realities of their object of study? In this case, since Asian-American Buddhists probably outnumber European-American Buddhists by ten-to-one, shouldn't I and 91% of my fellows be studying Asian-American Buddhists? But, that said, and to return to one of Quli's main points: Are Asian- American Buddhist contributions distortions (because they are American) or growth (because they are Asian)? And just who *are* Asian- American Buddhists, anyway? Wendy Egyoku Nakao Roshi, Abbot of ZCLA, about as throughly modern or postmodern a practice center as you're going to find, nevertheless chants lineages every day. Is that an elite practice? Or consider Rinban Nori Ito, minister of Higashi Honganji Temple in LA, who lectures both to his almost entirely Asian- American flock and to college students about engaged Shin Buddhism. Is that an ethnic practice? And these two, different as they are, are both American born Japanese-Americans. The diversity of Asian-American Buddhists goes so far beyond what they are given credit for, it is an embarrassment to the field of Buddhist studies. (Or so I think, anyway. Yet, as I say, I specialize in studying American Buddhist Zen meditators, who are almost all European-Americans, so who am I to throw stones?) Am I writing in circles? To some extent, yes. But of course that's my point, and, as I read her, a large part of Quli's as well. We *must* be self-aware and self-referential if we are to have any hope of curtailing our usual human/scholarly tendencies to objectify the Other, in a positive or negative light. What I take from Quli's article is foremost a strong and sane call to put our own houses in order. Franz Metcalf From franz at mind2mind.net Thu Jan 14 13:12:08 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:12:08 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wrong Speech in Buddhist Scholarship In-Reply-To: References: <554133c71001061251i500b5e3fwe06b67728a73658d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E29ACFA-9C09-41BD-8801-9EB1EC5F3B00@mind2mind.net> Richard et al., You quoted a young scholar confessing > "I thought if I praised the work of others, people would think I was > uncritical and intellectually soft." What an indictment of academic > culture that a young scholar would get the idea, probably from > observation, that praise is some kind of sentimentality and that not > being confrontational is not playing the academic game properly. I have long thought this about academia in general, but it pains me more because it is so true of Buddhist studies in particular. I have, over the years, been privileged to have Charles Prebish as a Buddhist studies mentor and we've exchanged many an email arising from nasty things that have been written about his work. But he's told me stories that were much worse, detailing nearly 40 years of wrong speech in Buddhist studies. The cruelty (the word is not an exaggeration) shown by some scholars of Buddhism and even by some Buddhist scholars chills me. I admit that I am, by nature, irenic and genial. It is practically impossible for me to be mean (except, of course, to those I love; then it is frequent). But I trust this does not condemn me to shallow, soft, or uncritical scholarship. When my scholarship is those things (also frequent) it is due to other factors, not to the fact that I'm insufficiently hurtful. And I have to repeat that I cannot chalk this up to being a scholar-practitioner: plenty of us (and the field is chalk full of us now) seem never to have learned If it?s not true, not beneficial, and disagreeable, don?t say it. If it?s true, not beneficial, and disagreeable, don?t say it. If it?s true, beneficial, and disagreeable, know when to say it. If it?s not true, not beneficial, and agreeable, don?t say it. If it?s true, not beneficial, and agreeable, don?t say it. If it?s true, beneficial, and agreeable, know when to say it. (From the Abhaya Sutta, MN 58, ) Good wishes, Franz From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 14 13:04:09 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:04:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief [was: Stupid old man...] In-Reply-To: <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> Message-ID: <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> Another donaton destination worthy of your help is Medecins sans Frontieres.....who are already in Haiti right now, unlike some of the other organizations who've not been able to get there on the ground as yet. http://www.msf.org/ Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 14:24:29 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:24:29 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief [was: Stupid old man...] In-Reply-To: <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > Another donaton destination worthy of your help is > Medecins sans Frontieres.....who are already in Haiti right now, > unlike > some of the other organizations who've not been able to get there > on the > ground as yet. http://www.msf.org/ I'm glad you put that one forward. I was looking for them, because they are such an obvious choice, but could only find a very complicated URL for their Haiti relief site. Another web page that has a list of organizations of varying persuasions---some religious, some political, some simply humanitarian---is http://www.interaction.org/crisis-list/earthquake-haiti In this, as in all things, it is not a bad idea to be informed. You can check out how much of your donation actually goes to the cause you are hoping to support. One place to do that is http://www.charitynavigator.org/ That site cannot provide information on some religious charities such as AFSC and the Slavation Army, however, because, as the site explains, "Many religious organizations are exempt under Internal Revenue Code from filing the Form 990. As a result, we lack sufficient data to evaluate their financial health." For example, they have nothing on Vodouid.org. Despite there being many religious organizations that are not rated by Charity Navigator, many are. I found nearly 300 Jewish charitable organizations rated (compared to a bit less that 700 Christian charities, 8 Muslims charities and 1 Buddhist charity). Alas, among the least efficient charities is the Quaker lobby group called Friends Committee for National Legislation. Most money contributed to them gets sucked up by adminsitrative costs; I reckon they have a hefty oatmeal bill. From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 14:28:09 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:28:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wrong Speech in Buddhist Scholarship In-Reply-To: <0E29ACFA-9C09-41BD-8801-9EB1EC5F3B00@mind2mind.net> References: <554133c71001061251i500b5e3fwe06b67728a73658d@mail.gmail.com> <0E29ACFA-9C09-41BD-8801-9EB1EC5F3B00@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <5AB70E41-C79F-45A2-9E81-A1521D8CADFF@unm.edu> On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Franz Metcalf confessed: > I admit that I am, by nature, irenic and genial. That's OK, Franz. No need to apologize. You're still welcome on buddha-l, despite those character flaws. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 14:30:01 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:30:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief [was: Stupid old man...] In-Reply-To: <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > Slavation Army Calling Dr Freud! Calling Dr Freud! From alberto.tod at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 20:57:32 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:42:32 +0545 Subject: [Buddha-l] You couldn't make this stuff up [was: Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com> Erik wrote: > So my > dentist can believe in miracles if he must, but not while I'm in his chair! And how about your chocolatier? I suppose it's not as risky. Intentional Chocolate (http://www.intentionalchocolate.com/info/About_Us): "Intentional Chocolate?, is a company that is holding a simple, yet revolutionary vision for the creation and consumption of food and how we live our lives. This conscious, for-profit company founded in 2007, is a leader in the revolutionary field of intention-enhanced food and is focused on delivering sustenance that nourishes both body and spirit. Through the power of food infused with good intentions, Intentional Chocolate and its research partner, the HESA Institute (Human Energy Systems Alliance ? www.hesainstitute.org) are reintroducing the ancient concept of intentional eating to refocus our attention on the important relationship we have to food. Our intention is to use good intentions to galvanize a shift in the food industry that would bring greater health and quality of life to all beings. Proven through scientific research to heighten well-being, Intentional Chocolate is the first intention-enhanced food on the market. The good intentions are infused into the chocolate from advanced meditators -- some who have trained with the Dalai Lama -- and is delivered with love to those who eat it. All the products from Intentional Chocolate include this intention: ?Whoever consumes this chocolate will manifest optimal health and functioning at physical, emotional and mental levels, and in particular will enjoy an increased sense of energy, vigor and well-being for the benefit of all beings.?" Best, Alberto Todeschini From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 14 22:38:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:38:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] You couldn't make this stuff up [was: Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha] In-Reply-To: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com> References: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <035197A4-29FB-4FED-A887-01A4467F8D20@unm.edu> On Jan 14, 2010, at 8:57 PM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > "Intentional Chocolate?, is a company that is holding a simple, yet > revolutionary vision for the creation and consumption of food and how we > live our lives. This conscious, for-profit company founded in 2007, is a > leader in the revolutionary field of intention-enhanced food and is > focused on delivering sustenance that nourishes both body and spirit. This reminds me of a restaurant I used to go to in Montreal. It was owned and operated by disciples of Sri Chinmoy. The walls were bedecked with photos of Sri Chinmoy lifting up passenger buses and barbells that it would take at least two Russian Olympic gold medalists in weighlifting to manage. The menu proclaimed that the most important ingredient in the food was divine love, infused into it by bhakta cooks. The servers drifted dreamily around the room vaguely taking food orders and smiling like three-toed sloths who had eaten too many hashish brownies. The joke used to be that the restaurant offered same-day service. The food would come a couple of hours after customers had forgotten what they had ordered, saturated with divine love and served with earnest blessings and benedictions. One hated to spoil the deeply spiritual atmosphere by leaving a crass monetary gratuity. Having had my karma transformed several times by Sri Chinmoy's restaurant (which I am sure was responsible for my getting tenure), I am a firm believer in consuming for-profit intention=enhanced food. You can bet I will be buying my lovely wife some Intentional Chocolate for Valentine's Day. I'd say more, but I have to go lift up a few buses before retiring to a night of dreaming of apsarases playing sweet celestial melodies as I sip ambrosia in Vridavan. Richard From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 15 02:20:53 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:20:53 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] You couldn't make this stuff up [was: Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha] In-Reply-To: <035197A4-29FB-4FED-A887-01A4467F8D20@unm.edu> References: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com> <035197A4-29FB-4FED-A887-01A4467F8D20@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B503375.7020206@xs4all.nl> Op 15-1-2010 6:38, Richard Hayes schreef: > On Jan 14, 2010, at 8:57 PM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > > >> "Intentional Chocolate?, is a company that is holding a simple, yet >> revolutionary vision for the creation and consumption of food and how we >> live our lives. This conscious, for-profit company founded in 2007, is a >> leader in the revolutionary field of intention-enhanced food and is >> focused on delivering sustenance that nourishes both body and spirit. >> > Having had my karma transformed several times by Sri Chinmoy's restaurant (which I am sure was responsible for my getting tenure), I am a firm believer in consuming for-profit intention=enhanced food. You can bet I will be buying my lovely wife some Intentional Chocolate for Valentine's Day. > > I'd say more, but I have to go lift up a few buses before retiring to a night of dreaming of apsarases playing sweet celestial melodies as I sip ambrosia in Vridavan. > And there was the 3HO family, American Sihks who were big in restaurants. The tantric adepts might want to google for sex and chocolate and I remember that there used to be a pastryshop in New York that sold all kinds of sexrelated chocolate figurines. This opens a whole new area in cooking, "accompany your unintentional French fries with the intentional steak, cooked during Mahakalapuja and finish with our karunasundae made with Tarastrawberries and yoghurt frozen during Avalokiteshvarapuja. As a special service for our guest and to make the digestion completely intentional we have an altar and recordings of pujas in each toilet." erik From slachs at att.net Fri Jan 15 03:38:41 2010 From: slachs at att.net (slachs at att.net) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:38:41 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] You couldn't make this stuff up [was: Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha] In-Reply-To: <4B503375.7020206@xs4all.nl> References: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com><035197A4-29FB-4FED-A887-01A4467F8D20@unm.edu> <4B503375.7020206@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <011520101038.24197.4B5045B100074A4B00005E8522230650029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C080C0E049C@att.net> Erik schreef: "This opens a whole new area in cooking, "accompany your unintentional French fries with the intentional steak, cooked during Mahakalapuja and finish with our karunasundae made with Tarastrawberries and yoghurt frozen during Avalokiteshvarapuja. " Achhh Erik- you finally showed your "old world" Commie rat colors- in the "Land of the Brave and the Home of the Free" we call them "Freedom fries." Just so you know, they are best followed with a slice of apple pie, preferably made by your mom. With the best intentionally enhanced blessings, Stuart From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 09:52:49 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:52:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] You couldn't make this stuff up [was: Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha] In-Reply-To: <011520101038.24197.4B5045B100074A4B00005E8522230650029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C080C0E049C@att.net> References: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com><035197A4-29FB-4FED-A887-01A4467F8D20@unm.edu> <4B503375.7020206@xs4all.nl> <011520101038.24197.4B5045B100074A4B00005E8522230650029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C080C0E049C@att.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2010, at 3:38 AM, slachs at att.net wrote: > Achhh Erik- you finally showed your "old world" Commie rat colors- in the "Land of the Brave and the Home of the Free" we call them "Freedom fries." Just so you know, they are best followed with a slice of apple pie, preferably made by your mom. If only the Bush administration had known that French fries are actually Belgian, we could have been spared the farce of Freedom fries. As for apple pie, Americans got it from the Dutch. Hence the expression "As Dutch as apple pie." Tell you what, Stuart. Let's go out and have some apple pie together. We'll go Dutch, of course. From roger60 at golden-wheel.net Thu Jan 14 16:06:44 2010 From: roger60 at golden-wheel.net (Roger60) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:06:44 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Haiti_relief_M=E9decins_sans_fronti=E8r?= =?iso-8859-1?q?es?= In-Reply-To: <24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001b01ca956e$40c0f890$c242e9b0$@net> In the USA the French organisation "M?decins sans fronti?res" is called "Doctors without borders USA" and the website is : http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/ while their Haiti donation page is at : https://donate.doctorswithoutborders.org/SSLPage.aspx?pid=197&hbc=1&source=A DR1001E1D01 Hope this can help someone ! Tashi delegs, Thubten Wangchuk aka Roger Garin-Michaud Still in sunny Brisbane -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: vendredi 15 janvier 2010 07:24 To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief [was: Stupid old man...] On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > Another donaton destination worthy of your help is > Medecins sans Frontieres.....who are already in Haiti right now, > unlike > some of the other organizations who've not been able to get there > on the > ground as yet. http://www.msf.org/ I'm glad you put that one forward. I was looking for them, because they are such an obvious choice, but could only find a very complicated URL for their Haiti relief site. Another web page that has a list of organizations of varying persuasions---some religious, some political, some simply humanitarian---is http://www.interaction.org/crisis-list/earthquake-haiti In this, as in all things, it is not a bad idea to be informed. You can check out how much of your donation actually goes to the cause you are hoping to support. One place to do that is http://www.charitynavigator.org/ That site cannot provide information on some religious charities such as AFSC and the Slavation Army, however, because, as the site explains, "Many religious organizations are exempt under Internal Revenue Code from filing the Form 990. As a result, we lack sufficient data to evaluate their financial health." For example, they have nothing on Vodouid.org. Despite there being many religious organizations that are not rated by Charity Navigator, many are. I found nearly 300 Jewish charitable organizations rated (compared to a bit less that 700 Christian charities, 8 Muslims charities and 1 Buddhist charity). Alas, among the least efficient charities is the Quaker lobby group called Friends Committee for National Legislation. Most money contributed to them gets sucked up by adminsitrative costs; I reckon they have a hefty oatmeal bill. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 14 20:31:31 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:31:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man... In-Reply-To: <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com><4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <1D3A059842524E329F0B9DBA6AE9B445@OPTIPLEX> At least he's not in your country!! Yes---I'd love to see more Christians publicly repudiate his ideas, but if they do, hard to find. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Weng-Fai Wong Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 2:06 AM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man... Sorry... stuff like this makes me break my metta-karuna-equanimity... http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.ht ml W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 14:49:38 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:49:38 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man... In-Reply-To: <1D3A059842524E329F0B9DBA6AE9B445@OPTIPLEX> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl> <707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg> <1D3A059842524E329F0B9DBA6AE9B445@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1263592178.3737.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Thu, 2010-01-14 at 20:31 -0700, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote regarding Pat Robertson: > I'd love to see more Christians publicly repudiate his > ideas, but if they do, hard to find. Jim Wallis routinely repudiates the religious right in his magazine Sojourners. The Sojourners website is a good resource for politically and socially progressive evangelical Christians: http://www.sojo.net/ There are also numerous Christian theologians and scholars who regularly repudiate people with Robertson's persuasions. Martin Marty (who appears on Bill Moyers' journal from time to time) is a good place to start. Harvey Cox, Miroslav Volf, Carol Zaleski and numerous other Christian theologians are out there critiquing the right-wing Christians. They are not at all hard to find, if you look somewhere besides Fox News. -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 15:29:10 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:29:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] On being moderate about being moderated Message-ID: <1263594550.3737.49.camel@rhayes-desktop> Dear denizens, During the past couple of weeks I have been playing Sorcerer's Apprentice again by tinkering with the various instruments here in the control tower of buddha-l. Several problems have come to my attention over the years, and I finally decided to try to solve some of them. One problem that I have noticed myself and have heard about from others is that some messages that are sent from buddha-l do not reach all subscribers. (The way I discover this is by receiving an interesting reply to a message but never receiving the message to which it is a reply.) When this happens I usually go the the archives (http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l) to find the missing message, but that is not a very elegant solution. Another thing that happens (not really a problem to anyone but me) is messages being held for moderation because they are larger than the upper size limit. (I have increased that limit, so that it should happen less often.) Oversized messages, by the way, most frequently result from a contributor either accidentally sending "rich format" messages that have hidden HTML code or replying to a long message but forgetting to trim out the parts of the long message that are not necessary for context. You can do your part by making sure messages are not richly formatted and being care not to include more than is really necessary from messages to which you are responding. In addressing the problem of missing messages, I tried to discover why some messages that I never received had failed to get to me. One of the ways that I checked on this was to see put up the moderation flags of several of the most regular contributers. That enabled me to see which messages were coming to buddha-l, which were being sent out by buddha-l, which reached the archives, and which reached my email address. For several days I put the entire list on what is called "emergency moderation" (usually used only in the event of terrorist attacks and flame wars), which means that absolutely everyone (including the moderators) is moderated. During that time I rejected about five messages (including one of my own) that somehow breeched the guidelines of buddha-l (which pretty much everyone ignores pretty much always anyway). The problem of the undelivered messages turned out to be on my computer, not on buddha-l. (I have an overzealous spam filter that sometimes dumps discussion group messages into a folder indelicately named Junk. I renamed the folder Guant?namo, and that seems to have solved the problem.) Once I discovered that, I took buddha-l off Terror Alert Level Orange. The only people whose moderation flags were still waving were a few of those regular contributors whose flags I had raised individually. I have been restoring them to no-moderation mode as their messages have come in for moderation. I believe everything is back to how it used to be now, except that messages can be longer than used to be the case. If any problems come to your attention, please address them either to me or to Jim Peavler, so we we do our best to solve them or at least salivate on them. Moderately yours, Richard From slachs at att.net Fri Jan 15 17:02:40 2010 From: slachs at att.net (slachs at att.net) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:02:40 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] You couldn't make this stuff up [was: Vajrayana onbuddha in the Buddha] In-Reply-To: References: <4B4FE7AC.5040505@gmail.com><035197A4-29FB-4FED-A887-01A4467F8D20@unm.edu><4B503375.7020206@xs4all.nl><011520101038.24197.4B5045B100074A4B00005E8522230650029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C080C0E049C@att.net> Message-ID: <011620100002.19127.4B510220000AB3EE00004AB722230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C080C0E049C@att.net> Richard offered: > If only the Bush administration had known that French fries are actually Belgian, we could have been spared the farce of Freedom fries. As for apple pie, Americans got it from the Dutch. Hence the expression "As Dutch as apple pie." Tell you what, Stuart. Let's go out and have some apple pie together. We'll go Dutch, of course. Richard -you are on- but since we are going Dutch-I don't think you will mind if I have two rollmoepse before the pie, along with a side of Belgium fries with mayo. We can send the ketchup to Georgie boy for his Freedom fries. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 15 19:21:48 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:21:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man...Pat Robertson: In-Reply-To: <1263592178.3737.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com><4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><1D3A059842524E329F0B9DBA6AE9B445@OPTIPLEX> <1263592178.3737.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <4A0A959E26E846D5B3FC8CF9E0260C34@OPTIPLEX> Richard, The various thankfully outspoken Christians that you mentioned, do get published, yes, but they rarely get into major print and especially radio media; Robertson does. That is what I was getting at with my wish for progressive Christians to publicly repudiate that bozo. Joanna From cfynn at gmx.net Fri Jan 15 20:44:36 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:44:36 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> This, along with Pat Robertson's remarks, makes me sick: be mindful - Chris From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Fri Jan 15 21:10:51 2010 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:10:51 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] On being moderate about being moderated In-Reply-To: <1263594550.3737.49.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <1263594550.3737.49.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1F8D236E-7F19-4472-9689-7F14C86CFAEF@wheelwrightassoc.com> Hail to the glove! On Jan 15, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > Guant?namo From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 22:58:28 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:58:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stupid old man...Pat Robertson: In-Reply-To: <4A0A959E26E846D5B3FC8CF9E0260C34@OPTIPLEX> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com><4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><1D3A059842524E329F0B9DBA6AE9B445@OPTIPLEX> <1263592178.3737.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4A0A959E26E846D5B3FC8CF9E0260C34@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2010, at 7:21 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > The various thankfully outspoken Christians that you mentioned, > do get published, yes, but they rarely get into major print and > especially radio media; Robertson does. All the people I mentioned have appeared on either radio or television and been featured in print media. In the stations I listen to and the print media I read Robertson is quoted only to be ridiculed. My impression is that Robertson within mainline Christian churches, Robertson is a joke and an embarrassment. He is no more representative of American Christianity than Michael Moore is representative of autoworkers. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 23:17:30 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:17:30 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> On Jan 15, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Chris Fynn wrote: > This, along with Pat Robertson's remarks, makes me sick: > That really is appalling. Thanks for the warning, Chris. On a happier note, I have been researching the efficiency of various aid organizations in terms of what percentage of the money donated makes it to the target. Very close to the top of the list for all charitable organizations is the William J. Clinton Foundation, which gets about 94% of the money it receives to the intended recipients. They are raising funds for Haiti relief. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 23:25:03 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: <27973_1263622752_4B515A60_27973_30_1_1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> <27973_1263622752_4B515A60_27973_30_1_1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> Message-ID: <3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> The PBS program Religion and Ethics has compiled a list of religious and humanitarian organizations raising funds for relief in Haiti. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/by-topic/humanitarian/haiti-earthquake-how-to-help/5474/ Of the 28 charities listed, I don't see any Buddhist organizations listed. I've been looking around for some but have not found any yet. Does anyone know whether there are Buddhist outfits offering relief for Haiti? From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 15 23:42:04 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:42:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: <28036_1263623195_4B515C1A_28036_36_1_3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> <27973_1263622752_4B515A60_27973_30_1_1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> <28036_1263623195_4B515C1A_28036_36_1_3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> Message-ID: <6652908D-40A5-4A6F-B465-85AB1A96B02E@unm.edu> On Jan 15, 2010, at 11:25 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > Does anyone know whether there are Buddhist outfits offering relief for Haiti? One of my favorite bloggers is James Ford, a Unitarian minister and Soto Zen priest. His blog of January 13 does mention one Soto Zen outfit in America that is raising funds. http://monkeymindonline.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-to-help-out-with-haitian-earthquake.html From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sat Jan 16 06:04:42 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:04:42 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: <3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> <27973_1263622752_4B515A60_27973_30_1_1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> <3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5F56420906F348AB8A70C8EBADA3991B@comp.nus.edu.sg> Tzu Chi of Taiwan was among the first to swing into action. http://www.us.tzuchi.org/usa/home.nsf/home/index W.F. Wong -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, 16 January, 2010 2:25 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief The PBS program Religion and Ethics has compiled a list of religious and humanitarian organizations raising funds for relief in Haiti. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/by-topic/humanitarian/hai ti-earthquake-how-to-help/5474/ Of the 28 charities listed, I don't see any Buddhist organizations listed. I've been looking around for some but have not found any yet. Does anyone know whether there are Buddhist outfits offering relief for Haiti? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 16 06:17:29 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:17:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: <5F56420906F348AB8A70C8EBADA3991B@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> <27973_1263622752_4B515A60_27973_30_1_1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> <3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> <5F56420906F348AB8A70C8EBADA3991B@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <4B51BC69.7080706@cola.iges.org> Another group is Buddhist Global Relief, the "driving force" behind which is Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi, according to this post at the Shambhala SunSpace (blog entry by Danny Fisher): http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=14279 Here's a direct link to Buddhist Global Relief: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/main.html And here is the whole original blog post by Danny Fisher: Though he is perhaps best known for his English translations of huge portions of the Pali canon?Wisdom Publications? In the Buddha?s Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon is an especially popular collection of his work?the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi has emerged as an important figure in the worldwide Engaged Buddhist movement. Among other things, he is the driving force behind Buddhist Global Relief?a new, visionary, Buddhist-inspired humanitarian organization contributing to relief and justice efforts all over the world. At this moment, Haiti is suffering the effects of an especially devastating earthquake. Humanitarian organizations are mobilizing for what President Obama called yesterday ?one of the largest relief efforts in history.? In a recent conversation I asked Bhikkhu Bodhi, ?What is Buddhist Global Relief doing to help? What can we do to help??His answer, after the jump. DCF: Regarding Haiti, what is Buddhist Global Relief doing to help? What can we do to help? Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi: Buddhist Global Relief has made a generous contribution to support the relief efforts in Haiti. This was drawn from our cumulative funds supplemented by donations from board members and friends of BGR. However, we did not make a public effort to raise funds for this emergency. The reason is that BGR itself does not operate in Haiti and is not equipped to send over staff to provide assistance on the ground. We also do not have partners in the country, and there is not enough time to establish a working partnership according to the usual processes. As a small organization, we had decided when we started that we would initially concentrate on South Asia, and from there we have branched into sub-Saharan Africa, but not yet to Latin America. We have sent our contribution of about $15,000 to reputable aid organizations already operating in the country: CARE, Oxfam, Doctors Without Borders, Freedom from Hunger, Tzu Chi Foundation (Taiwanese Buddhists), and Direct Relief International. We therefore suggest that those of your readers who would like to donate for relief in Haiti do likewise. They can also check out Google for Haiti relief operations. In this way, their donations will be used most effectively. Here are links to all of the organizations mentioned so that you can look into them for yourself: * Buddhist Global Relief * CARE * Oxfam International * Doctors Without Borders * Freedom From Hunger * Tzu Chi Foundation * Direct Relief International Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Tzu Chi of Taiwan was among the first to swing into action. > > http://www.us.tzuchi.org/usa/home.nsf/home/index > > W.F. Wong > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes > Sent: Saturday, 16 January, 2010 2:25 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief > > The PBS program Religion and Ethics has compiled a list of religious and > humanitarian organizations raising funds for relief in Haiti. > > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/by-topic/humanitarian/hai > ti-earthquake-how-to-help/5474/ > > Of the 28 charities listed, I don't see any Buddhist organizations listed. > I've been looking around for some but have not found any yet. Does anyone > know whether there are Buddhist outfits offering relief for Haiti? > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 16 08:04:53 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:04:53 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiti relief In-Reply-To: <5F56420906F348AB8A70C8EBADA3991B@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <931716.44511.qm@web63204.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7A7824D2-4184-4E2F-8BFE-EBF0223F2C1D@wheelwrightassoc.com> <4B4EDAF9.20801@xs4all.nl><707E0C40C2F540BDB4F45D6271449588@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B4F3072.5070906@cola.iges.org> <89B52848-BDAC-4C50-868F-B0C3A5A9D6BF@unm.edu> <10E5E9FDC67C47529A3B55DE68B064DE@OPTIPLEX> <17859_1263504428_4B4F8C2C_17859_32_3_24C0DAA6-E6A7-4F73-9252-75209BDCF9E8@unm.edu> <4B513624.50602@gmx.net> <27973_1263622752_4B515A60_27973_30_1_1D5B7A80-20D0-42D1-8630-6EFC8DCD2E98@unm.edu> <3CE4F1BF-9116-4B95-8330-4045A2C9E7AA@unm.edu> <5F56420906F348AB8A70C8EBADA3991B@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <4B51D595.1030901@xs4all.nl> Op 16-1-2010 14:04, Weng-Fai Wong schreef: > Tzu Chi of Taiwan was among the first to swing into action. > > http://www.us.tzuchi.org/usa/home.nsf/home/index > > W.F. Wong > > It's great, all those initiaves and I hope that it'll work out for the best, but be carefull, the first fake addresses have been reported. There are always criminals who try to get your money even at the cost of the poor victims of the quake. erik From gary.gach at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 08:07:46 2010 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:07:46 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] haiti Message-ID: <598baadd1001160707o77b363e5uc140e3b624f3f200@mail.gmail.com> am curious where / how our noble host monitors aid 'tho it may be too far offtopic often tzu chi is able to get aid in before others (red cross, etc) arrive on scene ? but not haiti apparently ( http://tzuchi.org ) metta .:. Gary Gach .:. Haiku Corner : http://community.tricycle.com Buddhist news : http://buddhistchannel.tv H o m e p a g e : http://word.To From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 16 09:09:48 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:09:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] haiti In-Reply-To: <598baadd1001160707o77b363e5uc140e3b624f3f200@mail.gmail.com> References: <598baadd1001160707o77b363e5uc140e3b624f3f200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Everybody had problems getting aid to the scene --at one point the airport had too many planes on the tarmac--plane triage was necessary--then the roads through to Port au Prince are blocked in various ways. I heard on radio that some aiders had been parachuting in, but nothing about it has surfaced in "regular" media, far as I can tell. Might have been a wish instead of a fact. Maybe for earthquakes hitting urban areas, aid organizations need to develop a few aid ninjas, expert in parachuting with large backpacks (in addition to the parachute pack) in order to get basics delivered early before thousands die of thirst or starvation. A recommended aid monitor is here: http://www.charitynavigator.org/ Joanna am curious where / how our noble host monitors aid 'tho it may be too far offtopic often tzu chi is able to get aid in before others (red cross, etc) arrive on scene - but not haiti apparently ( http://tzuchi.org ) metta .:. Gary Gach .:. Haiku Corner : http://community.tricycle.com Buddhist news : http://buddhistchannel.tv H o m e p a g e : http://word.To _ From jmp at peavler.org Sat Jan 16 10:33:54 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:33:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> On Jan 13, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: >>>> . I wonder how many other buddha-hellions would think that description accurate of them. > > ===I see it as generally true of the "politically correct" way to post as buddha-l. But I?ll be very glad to be wrong about this, especially since there are other things I enjoy about buddha-l. I thought you were talking about me. I am more of a Russellian skeptic. I do resent (deeply) being called 'politically correct', a term more properly referring to the niggling nabobs of negativism (I have waited about 35 years for the opportunity to use that in a sentence!!! > > Good heavens, you don't expect us to appeal for respect for every kind of irrational sloppy thinking in the world, do you? > > ===No, of course not. I didn?t even have that in mind. Beliefs and practices different from ours should be respected?such as the examples I provided in my post. Who is politically correct? Why should "beliefs and practices different from ours" arbitrarily demand our respect? I have no intention of respecting the Christian tenets of the Ku Klux Klan, the scientific opinions of creationists or climate deniers, the political philosophy of Nazis and Al Queda, the moral character of fox News commentators, and on and on. >>>> There would probably be more tolerance and respect on buddha-l if we didn't have so many Republicans on the list. > > ===I?ll wager there aren?t that many?probably from zero to three on the entire list. In fact, let?s take a poll! I hope you are right. I am certainly not one. Of course it only takes one bad potato to spoil the whole bag (and stink up the whole house). > > > Katherine As one of your friendly (volunteer) moderators I hope this help moderate this whole issue. Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; "When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; "When they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion exist, the ordinary man would do well to suspend his judgement." Bertrand Russell. Let the People Think, The Thinker's Library, No. 84, Watts & Co., page 2. From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 16 12:25:11 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:25:11 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] haiti In-Reply-To: <598baadd1001160707o77b363e5uc140e3b624f3f200@mail.gmail.com> References: <598baadd1001160707o77b363e5uc140e3b624f3f200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20A5087C-2FE7-4E35-A2A0-F50787613517@unm.edu> On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Gary Gach wrote: > am curious where / how our noble host monitors aid > 'tho it may be too far offtopic The job of moderators is not to aid but to hinder. That observations aside, I'm not sure I understand the question. If you can clarify what you are asking, I will be happy to provide either an answer or an evasion. Richard From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 16 12:40:55 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:40:55 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] New Postage stamps with Hindu Gods! Message-ID: <04A9FED360DA4F5E97886EB461EEDFF8@OPTIPLEX> www.usa-postage.com At least they left out Buddha, who in some Indian circles (but not all, as I understand it anyway) is also a Hindu deity. However, will we be surprised when the next offering is Tibetan Buddhist deities? or Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese Buddhist deities? To be followed by, the lucky laughing monk Hotei or the lucky cat images? Maybe some lucky calligraphy in Chinese characters? The possibilities are mind-blowing. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 16 12:45:20 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:45:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> Message-ID: <00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> Jim--I fear it was actually the "nattering nabobs of negativism", pace Spiro Agnew who might be rolling in his grave. ================== On Jan 13, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: >>>> . I wonder how many other buddha-hellions would think that description accurate of them. > > ===I see it as generally true of the "politically correct" way to post as buddha-l. But I'll be very glad to be wrong about this, especially since there are other things I enjoy about buddha-l. I thought you were talking about me. I am more of a Russellian skeptic. I do resent (deeply) being called 'politically correct', a term more properly referring to the niggling nabobs of negativism (I have waited about 35 years for the opportunity to use that in a sentence!!! > > Good heavens, you don't expect us to appeal for respect for every kind of irrational sloppy thinking in the world, do you? > > ===No, of course not. I didn't even have that in mind. Beliefs and practices different from ours should be respected-such as the examples I provided in my post. Who is politically correct? Why should "beliefs and practices different from ours" arbitrarily demand our respect? I have no intention of respecting the Christian tenets of the Ku Klux Klan, the scientific opinions of creationists or climate deniers, the political philosophy of Nazis and Al Queda, the moral character of fox News commentators, and on and on. >>>> There would probably be more tolerance and respect on buddha-l if we didn't have so many Republicans on the list. > > ===I'll wager there aren't that many-probably from zero to three on the entire list. In fact, let's take a poll! I hope you are right. I am certainly not one. Of course it only takes one bad potato to spoil the whole bag (and stink up the whole house). > > > Katherine As one of your friendly (volunteer) moderators I hope this help moderate this whole issue. Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; "When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; "When they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion exist, the ordinary man would do well to suspend his judgement." Bertrand Russell. Let the People Think, The Thinker's Library, No. 84, Watts & Co., page 2. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 16 13:21:24 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:21:24 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> <00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> > Jim--I fear it was actually the "nattering nabobs of negativism", > pace Spiro Agnew who might be rolling in his grave. >Joanna I believe it is "nattering nabobs of negativity" (has more prosodic juice), and it was written for Agnew by the late William Safire. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 16 13:09:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:09:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bright Buddhists [was] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> Message-ID: <94812FF7-E6EB-4AC1-AD7B-8009EEEEDDB0@unm.edu> On Jan 16, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > On Jan 13, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > > I am more of a Russellian skeptic. It's quite possible you are a Bright, Dr Peavler. You might want to find out whether that's what you are by looking at their website: http://www.the-brights.net/ The term "bright" was coined to function somewhat like the term "gay", that is, as a positive label for a group of people who are "despis?d, rejected, and acquainted with grief." (I recall hearing those words somewhere, but I can't get a handle on the precise reference.) The group of people who have adopted that label describe themselves as having a naturalistic worldview free of supernatural and mystical elements and who embrace an ethical system based on a naturalistic worldview. Their claim is that this group of people, known by some as atheists, are systematically persecuted, disqualified from holding public office and denounced. As one prominent Bright (the philosopher Daniel Dennett, who looks suspiciously like Jim Peavler) has said, "There are many times more Brights in America than practicing Jews. No political candidate would dream of openly denouncing Jews in a public forum, yet political candidates feel free to denounce atheists." (Personally, I find that descent into the fashionable cult of victimhood nauseating, so I hereby openly repudiate the Bright who said that and challenge him to a duel. My choice of weapon is a wizard's wand.) Dennett calls naturalists to come out of the closet, make a public declaration of their Brightness and demand to be counted. He even suggests that Brights make it clear to all political candidates that they cannot count on the Bright vote as long as they say inflammatory things such as "God bless America." (I would go a step further. I have gotten a file out of my toolbox and starting rubbing "In God we trust" off every coin that comes into my hands.) My guess is that there may be a Bright Buddhist or two right here on Buddha-l. The Brights website says: \begin{quote} The constituency of Brights is hugely diverse. Besides those who self-identify as atheist, humanist, secular humanist, freethinker, rationalist, naturalist, agnostic, or skeptic, there are individuals who go by their preferred affiliations, such as Ethical Culturalist, Pantheist, Buddhist, Yogi, Wiccan, Transhumanist, or Unitarian. Also part of the gamut of constituents are Jews, Catholics, Quakers, Episcopalians, and others who may personally maintain their religion?s cultural or aesthetic aspects, but not its supernaturalism. \end{quote} It turns out that some of my favorite authors identify themselves as Brights, such as Daniel C. Dennett (whom I admire, even though I just challenged him to a duel), Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, and James Randi. My guess is that my favorite Buddhist author, Stephen Batchelor, might quality as a Bright Buddhist, but I'll let him say for himself. (In fact, I'll ask him when he comes to give a Buddhist meditation workshop at the Albuquerque Quaker meetinghouse in March.) > I do resent (deeply) being called 'politically correct' God, yes! Er, I mean, Naturalism, yes! I hate to be considered correct about anything; it tarnishes my image and knocks my persona lopsided. And given that I don't have a political bone in my body, I would especially hate to be thought of as politically correct. What a completely distasteful idea. It has been a while since we had a crusade on buddha-l. I'm thinking the moderators should consider making sure that only Brights remain on buddha-l. We'll purge the subscription list of all Dulls. If you suspect your buddha-l neighbors of believing in anything supernatural, turn them in to Jim or me. We'll put the fear of the Lord in them! Brightly yours, Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 16 13:15:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:15:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> <00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1E011D54-1A1A-49FC-A304-F556170B3F07@unm.edu> This is a sample of the kind of posting I have been urging people to avoid sending in. There are two lines of response to more than sixty lines of quoted text. Please be mindful, fellow denizens. On Jan 16, 2010, at 12:45 PM, [a contributor] wrote: > > > Jim--I fear it was actually the "nattering nabobs of negativism", > pace Spiro Agnew who might be rolling in his grave. > > ================== > > > On Jan 13, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > >>>>> . I wonder how many other buddha-hellions would think that > description accurate of them. >> >> ===I see it as generally true of the "politically correct" way > to post as buddha-l. But I'll be very glad to be wrong about > this, especially since there are other things I enjoy about > buddha-l. > > I thought you were talking about me. I am more of a Russellian > skeptic. I do resent (deeply) being called 'politically correct', > a term more properly referring to the niggling nabobs of > negativism (I have waited about 35 years for the opportunity to > use that in a sentence!!! >> >> Good heavens, you don't expect us to appeal for respect for > every kind of irrational sloppy thinking in the world, do you? >> >> ===No, of course not. I didn't even have that in mind. > Beliefs and practices different from ours should be > respected-such as the examples I provided in my post. > > Who is politically correct? Why should "beliefs and practices > different from ours" arbitrarily demand our respect? I have no > intention of respecting the Christian tenets of the Ku Klux Klan, > the scientific opinions of creationists or climate deniers, the > political philosophy of Nazis and Al Queda, the moral character > of fox News commentators, and on and on. > >>>>> There would probably be more tolerance and respect on > buddha-l if we didn't have so many Republicans on the list. >> >> ===I'll wager there aren't that many-probably from zero to > three on the entire list. In fact, let's take a poll! > I hope you are right. I am certainly not one. Of course it only > takes one bad potato to spoil the whole bag (and stink up the > whole house). >> >> >> Katherine > > As one of your friendly (volunteer) moderators I hope this help > moderate this whole issue. > > Dr. James M. Peavler > jmp at peavler.org > http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog > > "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held > to be certain; > "When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as > certain by a non-expert; > "When they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive > opinion exist, the ordinary man would do well to suspend his > judgement." Bertrand Russell. Let the People Think, The > Thinker's Library, No. 84, Watts & Co., page 2. > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 16 13:36:06 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:36:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> <00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > the late William Safire. When was he ever late? I always found Safire fairly punctual, not to mention punctilious and punctuational. Despite his ridiculously right-wing political views, he was by quite some bit my favorite writer on language and trends in its usage and abusage. It is my conviction that every Buddhist should be required to memorize Safire quotations and to recite them as they circumambulate their copy of the Oxford English Dictionary. Two of my favorites: "If you re-read your work, you can find on re-reading a great deal of repetition can be avoided by re-reading and editing." "Is sloppiness in speech caused by ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care." From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 16 13:53:28 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:53:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: > Jim--I fear it was actually the "nattering nabobs of negativism", >pace Spiro Agnew who might be rolling in his grave. >Joanna I believe it is "nattering nabobs of negativity" (has more prosodic juice), and it was written for Agnew by the late William Safire. Dan ------------ Ah yes, right! I'd forgotten who wrote it but now that you inform us, no surprise! From jmp at peavler.org Sat Jan 16 14:09:15 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:09:15 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bright Buddhists [was] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <94812FF7-E6EB-4AC1-AD7B-8009EEEEDDB0@unm.edu> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org> <94812FF7-E6EB-4AC1-AD7B-8009EEEEDDB0@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 16, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > > It's quite possible you are a Bright, Dr Peavler. You might want to find out whether that's what you are by looking at their website: http://www.the-brights.net/ As it happens I was a charter Bright, having been already an email follower of prof Dawkins (who is a lot more militant an atheist than I am). I have trouble getting very emotional about my atheism. Seems to me that atheism should be a sin of omission rathe than a sin of commission. I even use the little blue Brights' logo sometimes. Brights also have a pretty good Facebook presence in that they hardly ever do anything but appear in your "Groups" list and make you look smart. Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; when they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion to exist, the ordinary man would do will to suspend his judgement."Bertrand Russell. From jmp at peavler.org Sat Jan 16 14:13:52 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:13:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <84AB05E5-D3EB-444A-B763-8C61E794FB32@peavler.org> On Jan 16, 2010, at 1:53 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: >> Jim--I fear it was actually the "nattering nabobs of > negativism", >> pace Spiro Agnew who might be rolling in his grave. >> Joanna I'm humiliated that after waiting for over thirty years to quote my political hero, Spiro Agnew, I blew it. Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; when they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion to exist, the ordinary man would do will to suspend his judgement."Bertrand Russell. From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 16 14:51:56 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:51:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <84AB05E5-D3EB-444A-B763-8C61E794FB32@peavler.org> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX> <002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> <84AB05E5-D3EB-444A-B763-8C61E794FB32@peavler.org> Message-ID: <39A2E80F-E456-4747-9242-1E8E90F9EBC5@unm.edu> On Jan 16, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Jim Peavler wrote: > I'm humiliated that after waiting for over thirty years to quote my political hero, Spiro Agnew, I blew it. The man who said "In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism," also predicted the rise of Rupert Murdoch when he said "The American people should be made aware of the trend toward monopolization of the great public information vehicles and the concentration of more and more power over public opinion in fewer and fewer hands." He was clearly a prophetic voice. A few nights ago our household watched one of my favorite movies about one of my least favorite Quakers, Oliver Stone's "Nixon." Anthony Hopkins was (as always) brilliant in the role. But one glaring flaw of the film is that there was no mention whatsoever of Spiro T. Agnew. How can one tell the story of Nixon's presidency without depicting the important role played by Agnew, the sage who made the keen observation that "An intellectual is a man who doesn't know how to park a bike"? (There were no female intellectuals back then, as you'll recall.) I can hear some of you asking what this all has to do with Buddhism. It has everything to do with Buddhism. There is a rumor going around on the Internet that Spiro Agnew's son was said to be gay by Brit Hume, the very man who recently said that Tiger Woods should abandon Buddhism and become a Christian. Also, germane to our recent discussion of Brights and Buddhists, Spiro Agnew was neither. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 16 17:31:42 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Dayamati) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:31:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community Message-ID: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> The council of elders of the former Western Buddhist Order, recently renamed the Triratna Buddhist Order, have met to ponder their new name. After much discussion and careful reflection, they have decided that calling the organization and Order is too confusing. (Perhaps it makes people think that new members are ordained, rather than initiated.) So now the name has been changed yet again. The old WBO --> TBO is now the (drum rolls please, but hold the ratamacues) Triratna Buddhist Community (TBC), which I suppose the folks in the low countries will call De Boeddhistische Gemeenschap van de Drie Juwelen (BGDJ). I myself remain a Bright jeweller. Day?mati rhayes at unm.edu From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 16 23:58:50 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:58:50 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan> >> the late William Safire. > > When was he ever late? Safire would have been the perfect person to ask when and how "late" came to be applied to deceased persons. As for whether the original quote uses "negativity" or "negativism," one can find both "attested" on web resources. For "negativity" see http://tinyurl.com/yk34lk9 For "negativism" see http://tinyurl.com/yhwk9m9 Anyone have the actual tape of Agnew's speech? Agnew, with a law background, did make his own contribution to the cultural discourse when he brought a legal locution into common parlance. He was the first holder of high office in the US to be forced to resign due to legal prosecutions (a prelude to the Watergate scandal and Nixon's own exit from office, and how Gerry Ford, to fill Agnew's void, got into the White House without being elected either President or Vice-President, another first). While normally one responds to charges with either "guitly" or "not guilty", Agnew pleaded "nolo contendre" (which is Sanskrit for "Sure I did it, but you can't make me say so in public", often mistranslated as "no contest"). Ever since, people from all walks of life have been using nolo contendre for everything from traffic tickets to class D felonies. See http://tinyurl.com/yj29b3y Dan From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sun Jan 17 03:20:53 2010 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:20:53 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> Message-ID: Dayamati writes >The old WBO --> TBO is now the (drum rolls please, but hold the >ratamacues) Triratna Buddhist Community (TBC) To Be Continued? -- Metta Mike Austin From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 17 05:09:16 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:09:16 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B52FDEC.1030908@xs4all.nl> Op 17-1-2010 11:20, Mike Austin schreef: > Dayamati writes > > >> The old WBO --> TBO is now the (drum rolls please, but hold the >> ratamacues) Triratna Buddhist Community (TBC) >> > To Be Continued? > > I've been given a vaccination against it when I was a child. erik From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Jan 17 10:32:45 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:32:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] New postage stamps with Hindu gods! Message-ID: <7207.53977.qm@web112602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "Joanna wrote: www.usa-postage.com At least they left out Buddha, who in some Indian circles (but not all, as I understand it anyway) is also a Hindu deity. However, will we be surprised when the next offering is Tibetan Buddhist deities? or Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese Buddhist deities?? To be followed by, the lucky laughing monk Hotei or the lucky cat images? Maybe some lucky calligraphy in Chinese characters? The possibilities are mind-blowing." ============================================== In some Indian circles, the Buddha is considered the ninth of the Maha-Avatars.? In traditionally Catholic countries it is (or was)?common to see postage stamps with the different manifestations of the Virgin Mary.? I haven't seen them in a long time here, but I remember collecting them as a child.? ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 17 12:49:27 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:49:27 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> <002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > While normally one responds to charges with either "guitly" or "not guilty", > Agnew pleaded "nolo contendre" William Safire's ghost just asked me to remind you that the phrase is spelled "nolo contendere". From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 17 12:53:30 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Dayamati) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu> On Jan 17, 2010, at 3:20 AM, Mike Austin wrote: > Dayamati writes > >> The old WBO --> TBO is now the (drum rolls please, but hold the >> ratamacues) Triratna Buddhist Community (TBC) > > To Be Continued? No doubt. My guess is that the former FWBO will split into about nine hundred factions, each with its own idea of what the best change in names should be. I have already put in my bid for the name Triratna Buddhist Commune for my faction-of-one. Day?mati (Triratna Buddhist Communist) rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 17 13:06:44 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:06:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] New postage stamps with Hindu gods! In-Reply-To: <7207.53977.qm@web112602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <7207.53977.qm@web112602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <923107AE-B10F-4F27-8EE9-D63C5E743810@unm.edu> On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:32 AM, Katherine Masis wrote: > In traditionally Catholic countries it is (or was) common to see postage stamps with the different manifestations of the Virgin Mary. I haven't seen them in a long time here, but I remember collecting them as a child. Is the Virgin of Guadalupe popular in Costa Rica? One can hardly find a Catholic church in New Mexico that does not feature her. (Being rather fond of goddess figures, I even have one or two in my house, right next to Guanyin.) I have always associated the Virgin of Guadalupe with Mexico, but I encountered her in Andalusia, so I guess she might have come from Spain originally. The name "Guadalupe" in Extremadura is, after all, most probably derived from Arabic, so it makes sense the virgin of Guadalupe was of southern Spanish provenience. From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 17 15:31:42 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:31:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] haiti In-Reply-To: References: <598baadd1001160707o77b363e5uc140e3b624f3f200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57555E51530246F482379349EC9A86F9@OPTIPLEX> http://www.alternet.org/story/145183/ As Buddhism is about compassion, we need to know more about the real story of Haiti's destruction. Some of us are old enough to remember what was going on between the US and Haiti in the '70s and after, but you won't get it from newspapers, network TV or CNN. This article is about how Port au Prince got that way, as of today. Remember Papa Doc Duvalier? Baby Doc? the IMF? The neo-cons are still at it: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/imf_to_haiti_freeze_ public_wages Another commentary, too long as usual but if it helps: http://www.counterpunch.org/smith01142010.html Joanna From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 17 15:46:14 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:46:14 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] the poignancy of Donald Lopez Message-ID: <4B539336.1040204@cola.iges.org> Michael Jerryson claims to have been victimized by a sinister fraud perpetrated by Walpola Rahula, the Dalai Lama and D.T. Suzuki, who shamelessly sought to convince him, indeed, the whole world, of the lie that Buddhism is a "religion of peace." Worse, these fiends were not alone in their "very successful ... propaganda", and "As Donald S. Lopez Jr. and others have poignantly shown, academics quickly followed suit, so that by the 1960s U.S popular culture no longer depicted Buddhist traditions as primitive, but as mystical." Ah, the poignancy. It gets to ya, doesn't it? In a recent article he wrote for religionispatches.org, Jerryson tells the cockle-warming story his own personal journey from clueless dupe to righteous debunker. His eyes were opened when he traveled to Thailand in 2006 to an area where deadly attacks on Buddhists by Islamic Jihadists had been taking place. Jerryson had gone there hoping to be an eyewitness to the miraculous power of Buddhist "peacemaking". But Jerryson discovered that instead of inviting the terrorists to participate in small group discussions of the writings of Riane Eisler and Karen Armstrong, that Thai Buddhists were actually -- horrors -- defending themselves!! Jerryson was not intimidated by the prospect of taking on the Dalai Lama and his propaganda machine. He had seen the truth, and it had set him free. Now the world must know! On the off chance that there is a single person who actually takes Jerryson seriously (and, apparently, there are) I offer the opening sentence of the book that "has consumed much of the last six years of my life": "It is a well known fact that the first of all commandments of the Buddhist creed is 'Thou shalt not kill'". Curt P.S. Jerryson's article at religiondispatches.org is here: http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/rdbook/2158/monks_with_guns%3A_discovering_buddhist_violence/ From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 17 16:22:49 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:22:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4B539336.1040204@cola.iges.org> References: <4B539336.1040204@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <5842BA6F-7F92-4B86-891D-E991EDD7D205@unm.edu> On Jan 17, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Curt Steinmetz quoted some bozo as saying: > by the 1960s U.S popular culture no longer depicted Buddhist > traditions as primitive, but as mystical Does the bozo explain the difference between primitive and mystical for the benefit of us Brights who can't tell the two apart? From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Jan 17 17:09:52 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:09:52 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan><002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan> <51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> Message-ID: <003501ca97d2$8edec190$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard wrote: > > William Safire's ghost just asked me to remind you that the phrase is > spelled "nolo contendere". > Nolo contendere! Dan From bshmr at aol.com Sun Jan 17 19:24:05 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:24:05 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha Message-ID: <1263781445.5554.11.camel@aims110> Bright Ancients and those Not, The Brit Hume advice to Tiger Woods continues to come up, not only here but there and then again over there. Appended is a link to one introspective process which seems valuable to emulate not so much for its significant content but for (personal) lucidity. My own rationalizations appear simpler as I noted that being responsible as a Buddhist differed from Brit Hume's Judeo-Christian absolution; neither of which is central, but irrelevant, to Fleming's 'straw men'. To me, the crux is analogous to how stereotypes deal with working as well as non-working consumer products. In the former, most individuals appear identical yet, in the latter circumstance, stereotypes differentiate as some throw away and replace the broken (or out-dated) while others fix or reconsider. ... 'Conditioned mind' does determine what 'stories' are told as well as listened to, doesn't it. =BigGrin Richard, the Recessed, Basham ** http://www.countercurrents.org/fleming160110.htm What Brit Hume Doesn't Know About Buddhism And The Sorry State Of US Christianity By Eileen Fleming; 16 January, 2010; Countercurrents.org Recently on the Bill O'Reilly show, Brit Hume advised Tiger Woods that he should turn from Buddhism to Christianity. On 'O'Reilly', Brit Hume Reaffirms His Faith; Tells Tiger Woods He Should to Turn to Christianity The truth is that the best Christians are also Buddhists, such as Thomas Merton, Trappist monk poet, social critic and mystic, who said: "I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity. I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can." [Steindl-Rast, 1969, "Recollection of Thomas Merton's Last Days in the West"] The pre-Christian Merton was attracted to the mysticism of Aldous Huxley in the book, "Ends and Means," which sowed the seeds of apophatic mysticism-meaning a knowledge of God obtained by negation-that sprouted into a relationship with Buddhist teachings about the Void and Emptiness. Merton also devoured Christian mystical writings by Pseudo-Dionysius, Gregory of Nyssa, Meister Eckhart and John of the Cross. ... From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun Jan 17 20:14:51 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:14:51 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> <4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu> Message-ID: <460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> "Order" is so British and archaic. And it seems to imply this need to somehow fit into the orthodoxy. If I not wrong, the chief Theravadan monk in the U.K. still goes by the title "Chief Primate of the Buddhist Clergy" (or something like that). Is there a "Primate" position in the "Triratna Buddhist Order"? I say go with something more modern sounding. W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dayamati > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:54 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community > > On Jan 17, 2010, at 3:20 AM, Mike Austin wrote: > > > Dayamati writes > > > >> The old WBO --> TBO is now the (drum rolls please, but hold the > >> ratamacues) Triratna Buddhist Community (TBC) > > > > To Be Continued? > > No doubt. My guess is that the former FWBO will split into about nine > hundred factions, each with its own idea of what the best change in names > should be. I have already put in my bid for the name Triratna Buddhist > Commune for my faction-of-one. > > Dayamati (Triratna Buddhist Communist) > rhayes at unm.edu > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun Jan 17 20:20:23 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:20:23 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu><4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu> <460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> > If I not wrong, the chief Theravadan monk in the U.K. still goes by > the title "Chief Primate of the Buddhist Clergy"(or something like > that). Some ol' English chaps apprently mixed up monkish business with monkey business. W.F. Wong From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 17 20:47:20 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Dayamati) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:47:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu> <4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu> <460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <03290B60-8B65-4084-B89F-FADF4ACCA7D0@unm.edu> On Jan 17, 2010, at 8:14 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Is there a "Primate" position in the "Triratna > Buddhist Order"? The last I checked, all the communists in the Triratna Buddhist Community were primates. I'm not sure what position they adopted. Probably the missionary position. Day?mati rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 17 20:52:16 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:52:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu><4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu> <460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> <4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Some ol' English chaps apprently mixed up monkish business with monkey > business. Monks are human beings. Human beings are apes. Apes are monkeys. Monkeys are primates. There's no mix-up here. From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Jan 17 21:03:19 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:03:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] New postage stamps with Hindu gods! Message-ID: <315656.48623.qm@web112602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Richard Hayes wrote: ? "Is the Virgin of Guadalupe popular in Costa Rica? One can hardly find a Catholic church in New Mexico that does not feature her. (Being rather fond of goddess figures, I even have one or two in my house, right next to Guanyin.) I have always associated the Virgin of Guadalupe with Mexico, but I encountered her in Andalusia, so I guess she might have come from Spain originally. The name "Guadalupe" in Extremadura is, after all, most probably derived from Arabic, so it makes sense the virgin of Guadalupe was of southern Spanish provenience." ============================ There is a town near where I?live called Guadalupe, and its main (Catholic) church is the "Iglesia de Guadalupe" with a huge "Virgen de Guadalupe" inside.? But the patroness of Costa Rica is the "Virgen de los Angeles," which translates as "Our Lady of the Angels."? I have to brush up on my middle school colonial history to refresh my memory about the old legend.? Every August the 2nd, the faithful make pilgrimages on foot from wherever they are to Cartago, the city?where Our Lady of the Angels has her main church.? Last year the Minister of Health made a plea to call?the pilgrimage off because of the A1H1N1 scare.? It was cancelled for the first time in over a century.? Some priests were furious and demanded that the stadiums be closed for soccer games as well.? Ah, that's Costa Rica's real religion:? "futbol". ? Katherine Masis From marshallarts at bigpond.com Sun Jan 17 21:37:22 2010 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:37:22 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu><4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu><460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <1A914451D845428FB00DA913CB5BF3A1@katies> ----- > Monks are human beings. Human beings are apes. Apes are monkeys. Monkeys are primates. There's no mix-up here. There is one small mix-up, Richard. Apes aren't monkeys. Regards Kate From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 17 23:02:53 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:02:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu><4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu><460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg> <4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <2E7D73DBC7D74D388411EA64E1C0B201@OPTIPLEX> > If I not wrong, the chief Theravadan monk in the U.K. still goes by > the title "Chief Primate of the Buddhist Clergy"(or something like > that). Some ol' English chaps apprently mixed up monkish business with monkey business. W.F. Wong Or: The real primates are in the jungle--------we are just silly facsimiles. JK From john.whalenbridge at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 07:16:22 2010 From: john.whalenbridge at gmail.com (J Whalen-Bridge) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:16:22 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez Message-ID: Curt Steinmetz, your attack on Michael Jerryson?s book is unnecessarily nasty. This language drips with sarcasm: ?In a recent article he wrote for religionispatches.org, Jerryson tells the cockle-warming story his own personal journey from clueless dupe to righteous debunker.? You gave a link, and I turned to the webpage. Monks who carry guns under their robes contradict the general spirit of Buddhism and vinaya rules, and it is a perfectly good subject for an academic study. Perhaps Michael Jerryson, in the fullness of time, will become more savagely ironic, but for the moment he appears to have chosen an interesting and timely subject. Instead of focusing so much on scoring points, you might want to let your responses settle a bit before firing off angry, not-very-thoughtful emails that aren?t very accurate. For example, you accuse Jerryson of naively assuming monks and nuns should just be victims and not attempt to be safe, but that?s not what the page you?ve linked your complaints to suggest. ?The constant fear and violence took a toll on them.? If someone has worked hard for six years on a challenging subject of general interest, I?d say s/he warrants a better response than what you?ve given. John W-B ------------------------------ >>>>ject: [Buddha-l] the poignancy of Donald Lopez .To: Buddhist discussion forum .Message-ID: <4B539336.1040204 at cola.iges.org> .Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed .Michael Jerryson claims to have been victimized by a sinister fraud .perpetrated by Walpola Rahula, the Dalai Lama and D.T. Suzuki, who .shamelessly sought to convince him, indeed, the whole world, of the lie .that Buddhism is a "religion of peace." Worse, these fiends were not ..alone in their "very successful ... propaganda", and "As Donald S. Lopez. .Jr. and others have poignantly shown, academics quickly followed suit, .so that by the 1960s U.S popular culture no longer depicted Buddhist .traditions as primitive, but as mystical." . Ah, the poignancy. It gets to ya, doesn't it? .In a recent article he wrote for religionispatches.org, Jerryson tells .the cockle-warming story his own personal journey from clueless dupe to .righteous debunker. His eyes were opened when he traveled to Thailand in .2006 to an area where deadly attacks on Buddhists by Islamic Jihadists .had been taking place. Jerryson had gone there hoping to be an .eyewitness to the miraculous power of Buddhist "peacemaking". But .Jerryson discovered that instead of inviting the terrorists to .participate in small group discussions of the writings of Riane Eisler .and Karen Armstrong, that Thai Buddhists were actually -- horrors -- .defending themselves!! . Jerryson was not intimidated by the prospect of taking on the Dalai Lama .and his propaganda machine. He had seen the truth, and it had set him .free. Now the world must know! .On the off chance that there is a single person who actually takes .Jerryson seriously (and, apparently, there are) I offer the opening .sentence of the book that "has consumed much of the last six years of my .life": . "It is a well known fact that the first of all commandments of the .Buddhist creed is 'Thou shalt not kill'". .Curt . P.S. Jerryson's article at religiondispatches.org is here: .http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/rdbook/2158/monks_with_guns%3A_discovering_buddhist_violence .------------------------------ .. -- J. Whalen-Bridge English, National U of Singapore From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 08:19:52 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:19:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A disorderly Buddhist community In-Reply-To: <1A914451D845428FB00DA913CB5BF3A1@katies> References: <2AC77B31-C602-4A3F-B3BF-9B1F1F344A76@unm.edu><4E561F7B-9CE8-4E03-9CCB-113FD4119D59@unm.edu><460CC9DA5CBC46F28B941E90D44BDDF2@comp.nus.edu.sg><4B8E0D1E747944C5B9C2125DE1707F65@comp.nus.edu.sg> <1A914451D845428FB00DA913CB5BF3A1@katies> Message-ID: <3FEFC5EB-4124-4848-9123-6D1ABD596058@unm.edu> On Jan 17, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Kate Marshall wrote: > ----- > Monks are human beings. Human beings are apes. Apes are monkeys. > Monkeys are primates. There's no mix-up here. > > There is one small mix-up, Richard. Apes aren't monkeys. I realize that is usually the case, but in just this one instance (the one that the quoted sentence was about), they are. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 08:30:46 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:30:46 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <819CD0E3-D2A2-4B8F-8A65-79E5CF312D60@unm.edu> On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:16 AM, J Whalen-Bridge wrote: > Curt Steinmetz, your attack on Michael Jerryson?s book is > unnecessarily nasty. Just about everything Curt sends to buddha-l is unnecessarily nasty. But I think we should give him credit for trying to assimilate to the traditional culture of buddha-l. Things have been pretty tame here for the past few years, but buddha-l used to be a real cowboy shoot-em-up. It was mostly Lusthaus's fault, of course. He set the tone. Once in a blue moon I would get a little sardonic. Peavler would put his oar in from time to time with some witty Twainesque folksy sarcasm. Unfortunately, we've all become mellow in our old age, and things have become so civil that women and children can now read buddha-l without fear of losing their innocence. Coyote From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 18 08:51:02 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:51:02 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> J Whalen-Bridge wrote: > Curt Steinmetz, your attack on Michael Jerryson?s book is > unnecessarily nasty. This language drips with sarcasm: ?In a recent > article he wrote for religionispatches.org, Jerryson tells the > cockle-warming story his own personal journey from clueless dupe to > righteous debunker.? You gave a link, and I turned to the webpage. > Monks who carry guns under their robes contradict the general spirit > of Buddhism and vinaya rules, and it is a perfectly good subject for > an academic study. Perhaps Michael Jerryson, in the fullness of time, > will become more savagely ironic, but for the moment he appears to > have chosen an interesting and timely subject. Instead of focusing so > much on scoring points, you might want to let your responses settle a > bit before firing off angry, not-very-thoughtful emails that aren?t > very accurate. For example, you accuse Jerryson of naively assuming > monks and nuns should just be victims and not attempt to be safe, but > that?s not what the page you?ve linked your complaints to suggest. > ?The constant fear and violence took a toll on them.? If someone has > worked hard for six years on a challenging subject of general > interest, I?d say s/he warrants a better response than what you?ve > given. > John W-B > Jerryson accuses the Dalai Lama, Walpola Rahula and D.T. Suzuki of spearheading a century long campaign of "Buddhist propaganda". The extreme stupidity of such a claim requires a strong response. No one should be left with the impression that there is a serious point to what he is saying, over which reasonable people might politely and respectfully disagree. Over 12 years ago Matthew Kosuta produced a detailed study of "The Military in the Pali Canon" (which is nowhere mentioned, even in a footnote, in Jerryson's book). In the conclusion of that study Kosuta states that based on the Pali Canon (as close as we can get to the "original" teachings of the historical Buddha) Buddhist teachings have always recognized "that, in a mundane perspective, the military is ever present, of high prestige, and even necessary in some circumstances for the protection of Buddhism." If one actually read what Walpola Rahula wrote one will find that while he does claim that Buddhism is thoroughly pacifistic, he consistently blurs the distinction between simple tolerance and understanding with an absolute pacifist position. In other words, Rahula's writings on nonviolence reflect exactly the same "apparent contradiction" that Kosuta finds throughout the Pali Canon. Rahula also frequently praises Asoka, who, as everyone knows, only renounced conquest, but never disbanded his armies altogether. In other words, there was nothing deceptive or "propagandistic" about whatever contradictions there might have been in Rahula's position on non-violence, and this is easily discoverable by anyone with access to google. The Dalai Lama is another, very different case. Anyone with the slightest interest in the history of Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism knows that it has never been a pacifist religion, and the Dalai Lama has never made any such claim. Many Tibetan Buddhists, including high ranking Lamas, completely reject His Holiness' pacifism, including the late Taktster Rinpoche (the Dalai Lama's oldest brother) who helped organize armed resistance to the Chinese in the 1950's and 60's. As for D.T. Suzuki, what kind of a moron would claim that the great champion of Samarai Zen tried to fool westerners into believing that Buddhists do not believe in the right to self-defense? Curt P.S. Matthew Kosuta's study, based on his Master's Thesis, is online here: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma6/militarycanon.html > ------------------------------ > >>>>> ject: [Buddha-l] the poignancy of Donald Lopez >>>>> > .To: Buddhist discussion forum > .Message-ID: <4B539336.1040204 at cola.iges.org> > .Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > .Michael Jerryson claims to have been victimized by a sinister fraud > .perpetrated by Walpola Rahula, the Dalai Lama and D.T. Suzuki, who > .shamelessly sought to convince him, indeed, the whole world, of the lie > .that Buddhism is a "religion of peace." Worse, these fiends were not > ..alone in their "very successful ... propaganda", and "As Donald S. Lopez. > .Jr. and others have poignantly shown, academics quickly followed suit, > .so that by the 1960s U.S popular culture no longer depicted Buddhist > .traditions as primitive, but as mystical." > . Ah, the poignancy. It gets to ya, doesn't it? > .In a recent article he wrote for religionispatches.org, Jerryson tells > .the cockle-warming story his own personal journey from clueless dupe to > .righteous debunker. His eyes were opened when he traveled to Thailand in > .2006 to an area where deadly attacks on Buddhists by Islamic Jihadists > .had been taking place. Jerryson had gone there hoping to be an > .eyewitness to the miraculous power of Buddhist "peacemaking". But > .Jerryson discovered that instead of inviting the terrorists to > .participate in small group discussions of the writings of Riane Eisler > .and Karen Armstrong, that Thai Buddhists were actually -- horrors -- > .defending themselves!! > . Jerryson was not intimidated by the prospect of taking on the Dalai Lama > .and his propaganda machine. He had seen the truth, and it had set him > .free. Now the world must know! > .On the off chance that there is a single person who actually takes > .Jerryson seriously (and, apparently, there are) I offer the opening > .sentence of the book that "has consumed much of the last six years of my > .life": > . "It is a well known fact that the first of all commandments of the > .Buddhist creed is 'Thou shalt not kill'". > .Curt > . P.S. Jerryson's article at religiondispatches.org is here: > .http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/rdbook/2158/monks_with_guns%3A_discovering_buddhist_violence > .------------------------------ > .. > > From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 18 09:55:50 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:55:50 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <5842BA6F-7F92-4B86-891D-E991EDD7D205@unm.edu> References: <4B539336.1040204@cola.iges.org> <5842BA6F-7F92-4B86-891D-E991EDD7D205@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B549296.9060206@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 17, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Curt Steinmetz quoted some bozo as saying: > > >> by the 1960s U.S popular culture no longer depicted Buddhist >> traditions as primitive, but as mystical >> > > Does the bozo explain the difference between primitive and mystical for the benefit of us Brights who can't tell the two apart? > There is a lot to unpack in those two words, especially in how Jerryson has chosen to use them here. However, the popular culture myth of Shangrilalian Buddhist Mysticism hardly springs forth fully formed only in the 1960's. Even Edwin Arnold was jumping on an already existing bandwagon when he wrote "The Light of Asia" in 1879. Curt From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Jan 18 09:57:01 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:57:01 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] New Postage stamps with Hindu Gods! In-Reply-To: <04A9FED360DA4F5E97886EB461EEDFF8@OPTIPLEX> References: <04A9FED360DA4F5E97886EB461EEDFF8@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4B5492DD.1090604@gmx.net> Bhutan issues stamps with Buddhist images e,g. interestingly most of these are obviously Tibetan not Bhutanese images since they show Gelukpa figures ~ a sect which is not present in Bhutan accept amongst some of the Tibetan refugee community. - Chris JKirkpatrick wrote: > www.usa-postage.com > > At least they left out Buddha, who in some Indian circles (but > not all, > as I understand it anyway) is also a Hindu deity. > However, will we be surprised when the next offering is Tibetan > Buddhist deities? or Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese Buddhist > deities? > To be followed by, the lucky laughing monk Hotei or the lucky cat > > images? Maybe some lucky calligraphy in Chinese characters? > The possibilities are mind-blowing. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 12:15:25 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:15:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> On Jan 18, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Over 12 years ago Matthew Kosuta produced a detailed study of "The > Military in the Pali Canon" (which is nowhere mentioned, even in a > footnote, in Jerryson's book). In the conclusion of that study Kosuta > states that based on the Pali Canon (as close as we can get to the > "original" teachings of the historical Buddha) Buddhist teachings have > always recognized "that, in a mundane perspective, the military is ever > present, of high prestige, and even necessary in some circumstances for > the protection of Buddhism." I'm glad you mentioned Kosuta's M.A. thesis, on which I happen to have been one of the examiners when he defended it. It's an interesting thesis and well worth reading. Kosuta was interested in the topic because he himself comes form a military family and had a career in the military before returning to school. His first impression on encountering Buddhism was that Buddhism is entirely anti-military, because there are so many references to anti-war passages in the secondary literature. As Kosuta became more familiar with the Pali literature (which he studied with his mentor, Mathieu Boisvert at Universit? du Qu?bec ? Montr?al), he was struck by how frequently military imagery is used in a positive way. Good monks are compared to brave soldiers, war elephants, skilled archers and so on. None of this is terribly surprising, he notes, considering that Gotama was of the warrior varna, and given that there are numerous passages claiming that warriors are superior to and more worthy of respect than intellectuals (or, to put it otherwise, that khattiyas are more worthy of respect than brahmins). It's not as though Buddhism had been hijacked by warriors; rather, it was martial from the very beginning. After writing his MA thesis, Matthew Kosuta spent a year as an exchange student at a Buddhist university in Yangon, Myanmar (formerly known as Rangoon, Burma). He went to the International Theravada Buddhist Missionary University in Yangon. I kept in touch with him before and after his time there. It intrigued him no end that the military government in Myanmar closed every university in the country except a couple of Buddhist universities. He was also interested in the tight and cosy relationship between the bhikkhusangha and the generals. He became increasingly convinced that the monks were not simply being prudent and pretending to agree with the military, but that there was a fundamental approval of the military dictatorship among the senior monks. The monks and generals seemed to agree that lay people are unruly savages who require top-down control, and that foreigners are all potentially dangerous influences whose contact with Burmese people must be kept to a bare minimum. As his year in Myanmar went on, Kosuta found himself becoming increasingly annoyed by several aspects of his situation as a foreign student in a Buddhist missionary university in Myanmar. Every single e-mail that every student wrote had to be routed through censors, with the result that it could take an e-mail as long as four months to reach its destination. Not only e-mails but posted letters, both inbound and outbound, were read and censored by university officials (who, of course, were all monks). What eventually got to him most was that the one and only pedagogical methodology at the Buddhist missionary university was memorization and recitation of Pali texts. There was no discussion, no interpretation more recent than Buddhaghosa's (which was also memorized), no historical contextualization, no writing of essays, no encouragement to put the meaning of a text into one's own words. There seemed to be no apparent understanding that Buddhist missionaries might not be very effective if the only thing they could do was recite the Pali canon to their potential converts. Although Matthew himself had been a career military person before becoming a student, and therefore had a certain amount of respect for authority and discipline, he was not at all charmed by the authoritarianism of the Buddhism he encountered under a military junta. As an anti-authoritarian pacifist, my own disenchantment with traditional Buddhism was kicked into high gear when I read Michel Foucault's _Discipline and Punish_ (Surveiller et punir: Naissance de la Prison) in 1988. While Foucault was talking about the influence of Christian monasticism on both the European military and the penitentiary system in post-Enlightenment Europe, I was struck by how almost every observation he made about Christian monastic authoritarianism could be applied to the culture of the Buddhist community I then belonged to, and to others I had had a chance to observe at close range. Buddhism in America was, with a few happy exceptions, authoritarian to the core. And, insofar as authoritarianism is essentially a form of violence, I could only conclude that Buddhist institutions, as I had experienced them, were essentially violent to the core. I did not believe then, and still do not believe, that Buddhism must be authoritarian and violent. The teachings (military metaphors in the Pali canon notwithstanding) are not violent. Quite the opposite. (Or perhaps I should just say that the Buddhist teachings I have chosen to inspire me are not violent. If there are violent teachings, I simply them.) Give anything to human beings, however, and they can quickly turn it into something violent and ugly. That, in a nutshell, is the story of world religions. -- Richard Hayes From jmp at peavler.org Mon Jan 18 13:01:20 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:01:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: <51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> <002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan> <51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > >> While normally one responds to charges with either "guitly" or "not guilty", >> Agnew pleaded "nolo contendre" > > William Safire's ghost just asked me to remind you that the phrase is spelled "nolo contendere". Agnew only knew that one phrase in Latin and could not forbear using it in jest. Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; when they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion to exist, the ordinary man would do will to suspend his judgement."Bertrand Russell. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 13:14:25 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:14:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan> <002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan> <51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4C8DBA42-5573-4CEE-A62F-CA3000BB6162@unm.edu> On Jan 18, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Jim Peavler wrote: > Agnew only knew that one phrase in Latin and could not forbear using it in jest. On the other hand, Agnew was obviously a scholar of Arabic. He used the word "nabob," which comes into English from the Arabic "nuww?b", plural of "n?'ib" meaning governor. I am not sure why the Republicans don't talk more about their glamorous californicating nuww?b Nixon, Reagan and Schwarzenegger. Not a natterer among them, and nothing but unalloyed positivity. Richard From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon Jan 18 13:21:31 2010 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:21:31 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: >> > > I'm glad you mentioned Kosuta's M.A. thesis, on which I happen to have been one of the examiners when he defended it........ > > Thanks Richard. This type of wonderful post is one of the reasons that I continue to follow Buddha-l. I think this issue of authoritarianism in spiritual practice is one that has kept me from drinking too deeply from any of the kool aid fonts I've been attracted to over the years. This post sums it up nicely, and points toward some sources for greater understanding. From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 18 16:23:56 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:23:56 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > I'm glad you mentioned Kosuta's M.A. thesis, on which I happen to have been one of the examiners when he defended it. It's an interesting thesis and well worth reading..... First of all I want to reiterate that Kosuta's paper really is something that anyone interested in the subject of Buddhism and non-violence needs to read. Secondly I think that perhaps with a little adult supervision Jerryson could possibly produce something that is also worth reading. In fact, at least some of the papers presented in the book look like they could make solid, if incremental, contributions to an important subject. Bernard Faure, in his "Afterthoughts" section of the volume in question, cites several specific examples of religious persecution associated with Buddhism in China and Japan, but then says "these cases are the exceptions that prove the Buddhist rule, and they underscore the contrast with the practice of Inquisition in Christianity." [p. 218] But Jerryson and his mentor/co-editor Mark Juergensmeyer (who wanted to be a Methodist minister as a young man) appear to be hellbent on obscuring precisely this crucial contrast that Faure insists on. That just such obfuscation is the primary aim of Jerryson and Juergensmeyer is clearly indicated by the way this book is being aggressively promoted. For example, the publisher makes this explicit claim: "Buddhist Warfare demonstrates that the discourse on religion and violence, usually applied to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, can no longer exclude Buddhist traditions. The book examines Buddhist military action in Tibet, China, Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Sri Lanka, and Thailand, and shows that even the most unlikely and allegedly pacifist religious traditions are susceptible to the violent tendencies of man." Such statements combined with the ludicrous nature of Jerryson's accusations directed at the Dalai Lama, etc al, would seem to indicate a missionary zeal of some sort at work here. Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 16:48:44 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:48:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <4BE87D19-67AD-415C-B57C-5CF6A2EE19ED@unm.edu> On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:23 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Such statements combined with the ludicrous nature of Jerryson's > accusations directed at the Dalai Lama, etc al, would seem to indicate a > missionary zeal of some sort at work here. Good to see that you are meeting an imagined Christian missionary zeal with your own anti-Christian missionary zeal. Doesn't it say somewhere in the Dhammapada that the best way to meet imagined missionary zeal is with real missionary zeal? From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 18 16:55:59 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4BE87D19-67AD-415C-B57C-5CF6A2EE19ED@unm.edu> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> <4BE87D19-67AD-415C-B57C-5CF6A2EE19ED@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B54F50F.3020009@cola.iges.org> I am still unsure about just what sort of missionary zeal lies behind Jerryson and Juergensmeyer efforts. They are certainly doing their best to lend credence to the age-old Christian argument that "everyone else does it". Clearly what we are seeing here is an example of the modern phenomenon of soft-core Christian apologetics, but this is is just as often engaged in by Buddhists, UU's and even Pagans as it is by nice liberal Protestants like Karen Armstrong. The rallying cry of these folks is that it is unfair to single out Christians and Muslims for what they have done, despite the fact that no one else has ever done anything remotely similar. Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:23 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > > >> Such statements combined with the ludicrous nature of Jerryson's >> accusations directed at the Dalai Lama, etc al, would seem to indicate a >> missionary zeal of some sort at work here. >> > > Good to see that you are meeting an imagined Christian missionary zeal with your own anti-Christian missionary zeal. Doesn't it say somewhere in the Dhammapada that the best way to meet imagined missionary zeal is with real missionary zeal? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 18 16:58:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:58:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] New Postage stamps with Hindu Gods! In-Reply-To: <4B5492DD.1090604@gmx.net> References: <04A9FED360DA4F5E97886EB461EEDFF8@OPTIPLEX> <4B5492DD.1090604@gmx.net> Message-ID: <39A6AF4B743D44CEBE7FC93EA0DCC05B@OPTIPLEX> Katherine is right, BTW--Buddha is considered in Vaishnavite circles as an avatar of Vishnu. Nowdays, some of the Hindutvas are also claiming him as Hindu, as one of them told me few years ago, saying that there really is no difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. Of course, I didn't argue with him. However, I keep coming across such amazing similarities here and there that I figure they must have some kind of a point. (I plan to write about one such similarity soon.) So, Chris---Hmmm, interesting. So why does the Bhutani govt issue stamps with Gelugpa images if it's not all that related to Bhutan? And while we're at it, would you kindly tell us what the prevailing sect is in Bhutan, or the official sect, or............? Best, Joanna ------------------------- Bhutan issues stamps with Buddhist images e,g. interestingly most of these are obviously Tibetan not Bhutanese images since they show Gelukpa figures ~ a sect which is not present in Bhutan accept amongst some of the Tibetan refugee community. - Chris From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 18 17:03:23 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:03:23 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan><002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan><51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> Message-ID: So Agnew should've said it in Greek. As in, Eureka!!!! JK > >> While normally one responds to charges with either "guitly" or "not >> guilty", Agnew pleaded "nolo contendre" > > William Safire's ghost just asked me to remind you that the phrase is spelled "nolo contendere". Agnew only knew that one phrase in Latin and could not forbear using it in jest. Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 17:23:53 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4B54F50F.3020009@cola.iges.org> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> <4BE87D19-67AD-415C-B57C-5CF6A2EE19ED@unm.edu> <4B54F50F.3020009@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <7622E18A-5F8F-4C4A-B826-BC6EC6842919@unm.edu> On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > I am still unsure about just what sort of missionary zeal lies behind > Jerryson and Juergensmeyer efforts. They are certainly doing their best > to lend credence to the age-old Christian argument that "everyone else > does it". If you are claiming that Christians have argued that their misconduct is acceptable because others have behaved similarly, that is an argument I have not seen. Could you offer some citations? Are you thinking of Solzhenitsyn's famous quote: "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" > Clearly what we are seeing here is an example of the modern phenomenon > of soft-core Christian apologetics, but this is is just as often engaged > in by Buddhists, UU's and even Pagans as it is by nice liberal > Protestants like Karen Armstrong. The rallying cry of these folks is > that it is unfair to single out Christians and Muslims for what they > have done, despite the fact that no one else has ever done anything > remotely similar. I hope you realize that that is a caricature of what such people say. And I hope you are not so undereducated as to believe that no one else has ever done anything remotely similar to what Christians and Muslims have done. Richard "Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. Any man who has once proclaimed violence as his method is inevitably forced to take the lie as his principle." --Alexander Solzhenitsyn From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 17:25:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 17:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vajrayana on buddha in the Buddha (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: References: <589568.52604.qm@web112607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1AAE3AD5-C4AD-41B3-B6B2-41C2AFBBC042@peavler.org><00E21907175B4E27BF38A9B61C61B41D@OPTIPLEX><002201ca96e9$7999cf30$2101a8c0@Dan><002a01ca9742$863c3990$2101a8c0@Dan><51057861-1647-422F-B207-E4C469ACBDC7@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:03 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > So Agnew should've said it in Greek. As in, Eureka!!!! If Agnew had tried to speak Greek, he would have gone spiroing out of control. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Jan 18 17:59:54 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:59:54 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> Curt, I was planning to stay out of this, since we have hashed this over in the past. But when you write > > Bernard Faure, in his "Afterthoughts" section of the volume in question, > cites several specific examples of religious persecution associated with > Buddhism in China and Japan, but then says "these cases are the > exceptions that prove the Buddhist rule, and they underscore the > contrast with the practice of Inquisition in Christianity." [p. 218] someone, as you suggest, has to exercise some adult supervision. Lots of folks would like Buddhism to have had that immaculate history, devoid of violence, and thus avoiding the hypocrasy of Christians calling Jesus the Prince of Peace while declaring Holy War on each other, heretics, and the unconvertible. The fact of the matter is, despite Faure's reassurances, Buddhist violence in East and South-east Asia has not been exceptional. An English translation of Paul Demi?ville's well-known French essay, "Le bouddhisme et la guerre: Post-scriptum ? l'Histoire des moines guerriers du Japon de Gaston Renondeau," in M?langes publi?s par l'Institut Hautes Etudes Chinoises, 1957, 1:347-385 is included in the _Buddhist Warfare_ volume. Unfortunately translated by a grad student who knew French, but not Chinese or Buddhism, so there are all sorts of avoidable mistakes, and the Chinese terms are transliterated into an old French system rather than pinyin or Wade-Giles, etc., but his essay alone would indicate that neither in Korea nor Japan was there anything exceptional to Buddhist violence and warfare. He points out numerous examples in China, but laments that the sufficient historical material is yet unexplored. Today, we have a bit more detail on China (thanks, indirectly to studies of millennial revolts carried out by scholars of Daoism), less awareness of Korean Buddhist history in this regard (and most others as well), and once again tons of material on Japan, most ignored by Buddhologists. Since Japan is best documented today in English, here are three works by Stephen Turnbull (a leading expert in premodern Japanese militarism, lecturer at University of Leeds) worth consulting. The first, which I've mentioned before, is the larger study, the other two are shorter studies, and overlap to some extent, though their focus takes them in slightly different directions. All are copiously illustrated: Stephen Turnbull. _Warriors of Medieval Japan_, Oxford, UK & NY: Osprey Publ, 2005. http://tinyurl.com/ylbs34a --- . Japanese Fortified Temples and Monasteries AD 710-1602. Oxford, UK & NY: Osprey Publ, 2005 http://tinyurl.com/yjb5swe --- . Japanese Warrior Monks AD 949-1603, Oxford, UK & NY: Osprey Publ, 2003. http://tinyurl.com/yloh5cu Very informative works. But even Demi?ville's piece shows, to Brian Victoria's chagrin, that 20th century Buddhist militarism has a long, pedigreed history. Given the hostility and unwelcomed manner with which Jerryson's work is being greeted by some scholars and self-styled Buddhists (like Curt's pathetic ad hominem) suggests Jerryson, like Brian Victoria, should be admired for their courage at bringing an obviously very touchy subject to the fore instead of joining the lynch mob. Demi?ville in his piece (which a very long time ago I discussed on this list with Nobumi Iyanaga and others) states that at least Buddhists in India refrained from violence (as if the problem can be blamed on the pollution of non-Indian cultures). I don't know whether Buddhist warriors, trained and garrisoned in Buddhist temples were ever a common occurrence, but violence on a smaller scale was certainly attributed to Buddhists by others in India. Once Nalanda became the leading center for studyin debate, logic and philosophical rhetoric, Buddhists jealously guarded their industrial secrets, since losing a debate could have dire consequences (anywhere from losing your life, to becoming a slave to the winner, to closing up your school and temples and moving to the next state). Only Buddhists were allowed in class. There are stories of two brothers (the Mimamsikas claim it was Kumarila Bhatta and his brother; the Jains claim it was one of their leading logicians and his brother) who surreptitiously entered logic class at Nalanda, studying for many years, while pretending to be Buddhist monks (shaved head, robes, the whole deal). Eventually (most usual figure is 20 years) their deceipt is discovered and they flee for their lives. The brother who becomes famous survives, but the other brother is caught and killed. There are actually additional stories of this type in the Indian archives. In case you find that shocking, before you write about how good little Chan monks in the mainstream (not those fringe samurai wannabes) would never do such a thing, reread your Platform Sutra about the advice Huineng was given by the Fifth patriarch as he handed over the robe and bowl. Seems to be Buddhist tradition. As for Suzuki, HHDL and Rahula, these are fair targets. Rahula grew up in form of Buddhism utterly sanitized of all social activism, turned into pacifism by the British. Rahula was among a group of Theravadins who, angry at the Colonial British, searched the Pali texts and traditions for cues of justifications to oppose the British. Rahula came to the conclusion that an entire, important dimension within the Theravadin tradition, a strong social activism, had been suppressed by the British, so reclaiming that became the foundation for their resistance. So I'm not sure I would agree with Jerryson that Rahula is a big problem here. Curt might think that "anyone" interested in Tibet would know that HHDL's pacifism is aberrant and out of step with Tibetan history (right up to the present day) and rejected by many others in the hierarchy -- I would expect at least buddha-l readers are aware of that since this had been discussed here so often, but that's not the case. I remember some years back at an AAR, a young scholar was giving a paper on the Tibetan and Chinese attitudes toward Islam (I've mentioned this here before as well); he spent some time discussing the Kalacakra, which as all of here know, is (1) one of HHDL's prime texts -- he trots the globe giving Kalacakra initiations, and (2) a grand cosmological treatise in which Islam plays the world's evils, predicting that the great king of Shambhala will eventually rise up with his armies and destroy Islam, and everyone lives happily ever. The Armaggedon is described in vivid detail. Members of the audience, young Tibetanologists, were horrified, and at the Q&A at the conclusion of the paper asked, in all sincerety: "Does the Dalai Lama know about this?" Suzuki has long been recognized as having promoted an historically novel post-Meiji version of Zen as the historical deal -- so enchantingly that it had traction. Yes, he played up a Zen and Samurai romance -- which in that form was also post-Meiji -- which obscured the actual militant history. Suzuki Zen still dominates the way western culture visualizes Zen. Shingon, Tendai and Pure Land were, in fact, much more intimately involved with military Buddhism (to coin a phrase that should be part of every discussion of Japanese Buddhism) than Zen, which played catch-up. But there were plenty of Zen "masters" who not only counciled samurais on how to fight, but were noted swordsman themselves who did more than practice on straw dummies in the courtyard. Temples had their own armies, and ran things. They attacked each other, and others. Some of these battles are very well known in Japan, subjects of famous paintings, stories, and poems, but there is virtual silence (with the exceptions noted above). So Faure's claim of "exception" is, in fact, precisely the opposite of the historical record. Dan P.S. Richard, thanks for the post on Matthew Kosuta and Burma. Nicely put, even if I don't think shrugging and dismissing is an adequate "analysis" of why Buddhism in Burma (and elsewhere) is and has been what it is (nor our desire to see it otherwise). From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 18 18:44:15 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:44:15 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> <009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B550E6F.7070504@cola.iges.org> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Curt might think that "anyone" interested in Tibet would know that HHDL's > pacifism is aberrant and out of step with Tibetan history (right up to the > present day) and rejected by many others in the hierarchy -- I would expect > at least buddha-l readers are aware of that since this had been discussed > here so often, but that's not the case. I am well aware of the abysmal ignorance of many people (with and without PhD's) with respect to "actual" Tibetan Buddhism. But the fact still remains that anyone with any intellectual curiosity can easily discover the truth of this matter, and neither the Dalai Lama nor any other Tibetan teachers are involved in any kind of systematic misrepresentation in this respect. Curt From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 18 19:15:09 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:15:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Matthew Kosuta; [WAS, the poignancy of Donald Lopez] In-Reply-To: <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> Message-ID: <621C723369964A9BA2CD102A4F0415DF@OPTIPLEX> And, for those wondering what Kosuta is up to now, he's on the faculty at Mahidol University, Thailand: http://www.crs.mahidol.ac.th/eng/faculty_Matthew.htm JK From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 18 19:21:26 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:21:26 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> <009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > The fact of the matter is, despite Faure's reassurances, Buddhist violence > in East and South-east Asia has not been exceptional. Historians have long understood that the violent intolerance of Christianity and Islam is, fortunately, an aberration, when compared to other religions. In particular, the seamless wedding of conversion and coercion that is at the core of those two religions is unlike anything found in the vast majority of other religions, including Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and Confucianism. First lets take the easy case: Islam. As soon as they had completed their conquest of what is today Saudi Arabia, Muhammad and his Companions decreed that all other religions were completely forbidden: Jews, Christians, Pagans, and anyone else who refused to convert to Islam must leave or die. That is still the case today, 13 centuries later. Can we all agree that the situation that pertains in the land of Islam's founding, a situation that accurately reflects the explicit wishes of the founder of that religion, is not the way that all religions conduct themselves? And can we all agree that this is a good thing? For anyone to whom these basic facts about Islam come as a shock, I recommend the book "Tolerance and Coercion in Islam" by Israeli scholar Yohanan Friedman, especially chapter 3: http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohanan_Friedmann But Muhammad was merely following a pattern already established by Constantine, of whom J.B. Bury wrote: "Persecution was an unavoidable consequence of Constantine's act in adopting Christianity. Two of the chief points in which this faith differed from the Roman State religion were its exclusiveness and the vital importance which it assigned to dogma. The first logically led to intolerance of pagan religions, the second to intolerance of heresies, and these consequences could not be averted when Christianity became the religion of the State." [J.B. Bury, History of the Later Roman Empire] Bury's assessment was essentially the same as Edward Gibbon's had been a century before him, and it is essentially the same as that of contemporary scholars such as Ramsay MacMullen, Jan Assmann, Perez Zagorin, Charles Freeman, etc. In all cases these historians explicitly contrast the violent intolerance of Christians with that of the "religious harmony of the ancient world" (as Edward Gibbon put it) that preceded the Triumph of Christianity. We can say with complete certainty that what was true for the polytheistic religious traditions of the Greco-Roman world has also been the case for Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism and Taoism. This is because the ancient religious traditions of India, China, Tibet, Japan and Korea (for examples) all continue to exist. In fact there are probably more Shinto Temples actively operating in Japan as there are Buddhist Temples. And in Korea the ancient "shamanistic" polytheistic religious traditions are alive and well. Etc. The equivalent would be getting on a bus in Athens and taking a short drive to go and be initiated into the Eleusinian Mysteries. Or visiting the Temple of Isis in Rome to ask one of the Priests or Priestesses there some urgent question (as Plotinus did long ago). But of course you can't do either of those things because, well, Christianity and Islam leave a trail of dead religions wherever they go, and other religions don't. People should realize that it is actually a good thing that Islam and Christianity are the exception, not the rule. Well, OK, it's not exactly welcome news to Muslims and Christians, but I mean, you know, for everyone else. For anyone who really wants to get up to speed on this in a hurry I highly recommend Jan Assmann's most recent book, "The Price of Monotheism": http://books.google.com/books?id=zPYHu8kAACQC "For these religions, and for these religions alone, the truth to be proclaimed comes with an enemy to be fought." [Jan Assmann on monotheistic religions.] Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 19:26:58 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:26:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Matthew Kosuta; [WAS, the poignancy of Donald Lopez] In-Reply-To: <621C723369964A9BA2CD102A4F0415DF@OPTIPLEX> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <621C723369964A9BA2CD102A4F0415DF@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:15 PM, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > And, for those wondering what Kosuta is up to now, he's on the > faculty at Mahidol University, Thailand: Thanks for passing that on. I had lost contact with him and had no idea what he was up to. It's great to know he has a teaching post. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 20:28:43 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:28:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org> <009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:21 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Historians have long understood that the violent intolerance of > Christianity and Islam is, fortunately, an aberration, when compared to > other religions. In particular, the seamless wedding of conversion and > coercion that is at the core of those two religions is unlike anything > found in the vast majority of other religions, including Buddhism, > Hinduism, Taoism and Confucianism. I wonder which religion these texts come from. They answered Joshua, saying, ?All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go. Just as we listened to Moses in all things, so will we listen to you. Only may Yahweh your God be with you, as he was with Moses. Whoever rebels against your commandment, and doesn?t listen to your words in all that you command him, he shall be put to death. Only be strong and courageous.? (Joshua 1:16-18) Joshua said to the children of Israel, ?Come here, and hear the words of Yahweh your God.? Joshua said, ?Hereby you shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Hivite, and the Perizzite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Jebusite out from before you. Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth passes over before you into the Jordan. Now therefore take twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, for every tribe a man. It shall come to pass, when the soles of the feet of the priests who bear the ark of Yahweh, the Lord of all the earth, rest in the waters of the Jordan, that the waters of the Jordan will be cut off, even the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand in one heap.? (Joshua 3:9-13) It happened on the seventh day, that they rose early at the dawning of the day, and marched around the city in the same way seven times. Only on this day they marched around the city seven times. It happened at the seventh time, when the priests blew the trumpets, Joshua said to the people, ?Shout, for Yahweh has given you the city! The city shall be devoted, even it and all that is in it, to Yahweh. Only Rahab the prostitute shall live, she and all who are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. But as for you, only keep yourselves from the devoted thing, lest when you have devoted it, you take of the devoted thing; so would you make the camp of Israel accursed, and trouble it. But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are holy to Yahweh. They shall come into Yahweh?s treasury.? So the people shouted, and the priests blew the trumpets. It happened, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, that the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. They utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword. (Joshua 6:15-21) Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, he will be happy who rewards you, as you have served us. Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock. (Psalm 137:8-9) After you have figured out which religion contributed those gems, it might be fun to read up the part of the Pali canon in the Lankan campaign against the Damilas (Tamils) conducted by the king of Lanka in which thousands of men, women and children were killed by armies at the head of which Buddhist monks marched. When the king showed remorse for the massacre, the Buddhist monks assured him that no worthy people had died, since none of them had gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. Or, if that is too far in the past for you, you might look into the role played by modern Sri Lankan bhikkhus in fomenting violence against the Tamils in Sri Lanka. If you have a bit of time, take a peak at the Ramayana or the Mahabharata and read up on the peaceful people who would eventually be called Hindus. Or read some books on the history of India and discover how Buddhists, Hindus and Jains persecuted each other in just about every period of history. Also worth reading is a history of the Sikhs. I'd be the last to say that the fact that human beings have always been violent toward each other is an excuse for anyone being violent now. (I'm a pacifist, remember?) So I am not citing these tragic episodes of human history to say that there is nothing for Christians to be ashamed about in their history. I am saying there is plenty for all of us to be ashamed about if we are not working toward peace and if we are fomenting scorn, contempt, disdain and condemnation of anyone whatsoever. As the Buddha supposedly said "Hatred does not stop through hatred. Hatred stops only through non-hatred." (Some namby-pamby translators, no doubt secretly proselytizing for Christianity, have replaced "non-hatred" with "love." That's how the first translation of the Dhammapada that I ever read rendered the passage in question. The preface, written by a Christian, made the outrageous claim that all major religions promote a culture of love.) The blind humorist James Thurber was once caught in a hotel fire. After being rescued, he was asked how he had managed to remain so calm in the face of danger. He said "If I did not panic when I learned I was a human being, I'm not likely to be afraid of much of anything else." So, Curt, take a deep breath and take stock of who you are. If you discover you're a human being, then be afraid. Be very afraid. Alternatively, see if you can find out how not to be as humans in the past have been. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 18 22:46:49 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Dayamati) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:46:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Of Sunims and King Message-ID: <39AC88A9-6C21-4795-82F6-037005ABBB0C@unm.edu> The following is a statement that nicely reflects the ecumenical and irenic tone of our age. It is from one of the pages on the website of Still Water Zen Center in Richmond, Virginia, one of the centers that grew out of the late Seung Sahn Sunim's (1927-2004) energetic Buddhist missionary work in the United States. \begin{quote} Q: Is Zen Meditation a Religion? A: Zen meditation practice does not include any form of religious indoctrination, nor does it imply any particular religious affiliation. While Zen comes from the Buddhist tradition, Zen students can be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheists - whatever (even Buddhist). According to tradition, the Buddha was the first Zen Master, so practicing Zen does imply that the Buddha is a teacher, but not to he exclusion of other teachers (like Jesus, Lao-Tzu, etc.). \end{quote} http://www.stillwaterzen.org/ The open-minded, interfaith tone of that passage reminds me of my former teacher, Samu Sunim, who like Seung Sahn Sunim, was of the Chogye order in Korea. It is, frankly, that ecumenical, inclusive spirit that I find missing in the Triratna Buddhist Community, to which I now belong. I find myself constantly having to cope with others in my Community who write inflammatory blogs with titles like "Why Islam is dangerous" and who rail endlessly against the horrors of Christianity. (I am glad to report that I am not alone in my Community in feeling disgust at such sweeping hostility.) As Martin Luther King, Jr holiday comes to a close in the United States, I feel disheartened to reflect on what Barack Obama said today. He said that Martin Luther King, Jr lived in the age of Moses, while we today live in the age of Joshua. So what does that mean? Does it mean that Obama, like Joshua, will invade foreign lands and slaughter all the men, women and children and justify it all by saying the present inhabitants are offensive to God and that their land is now ours to do with as we please? Does it mean we have graduated from having an African American liberator of the downtrodden and oppressed to having an African American marauder? Does it mean that the hound of heaven can now stop comforting the afflicted and begin afflicting the comfortable? I couldn't help reflecting on some of these matters on one of my blog sites: http://dayamati.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/dreams/ At least we are getting some much-needed rain this evening in the Rio Grande valley. The cottonwoods can use it. Day?mati From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 19 00:21:11 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:21:11 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> Curt, I might agree with you up to a point. Christianity and Islam are unique not only in the degree of complicity they have had with violence and war, but in the essentializing sacrilization of violence. Buddhism, the other great world missionary tradition, doesn't hold a candle to either of them -- even factoring in the revelations mentioned in my last post. We know we have a special case with Islam, not in the hoary past but at this very moment, when Yale University Press publishes a book on the Mohammed Cartoon controversy and, over the objection of its author, excludes any pictures of the actual cartoons (although they are all available online), for fear that literally heads will roll. And not just from a couple of nut job fanatics. The large, angry mobs that gathered throughout the Muslim world, tearing down embassies, etc., was still vivid in the press's mind. Christians have started to exercise some restraint during the course of the 20th c (not much before that), and so have installed a kind of mass amnesia and denial of their past, but it's there for anyone with eyes, memory and the ability to read. With the decline in Western power, the violence option gets more remote and interreligious "dialogue" has largely replaced missionaries stirring up the natives under the protection of the Imperial militaries. Islam is more optimistic about its rise in the future, and so violence is embraced. That equation -- a sense of dominance and the propensity to justify violence -- needs to be studied, esp. in the context of religion. But to acknowledge that Christianity and Islam are special cases, and clearly the worst offenders, doesn't let Buddhists, etc. off the hook completely. The notion that pagans are spared -- that only monotheists are violent -- is belied by E. Asian history, which has been as bloody and ruthless as anywhere on the planet -- only perpetrated by different motives and rationalizations. The Greeks loved war, courage, violence, conquest, rape, plunder, and songs from the id. Sparta. The greatness of Athens was measured in the ancient world by its military successes as much as by its intellectual foment (remember what they did to that gadfly Socrates). Islam and Christianity also have a "peace" rhetorical counter-current, which historically always tended to be a tentative minority, and frequently persecuted, moreso in Islam than Christianity. But it is admirable that such countercurrents exist at all, and they should be encouraged (without adopting the false view that they represent "real" Islam" or "real" Christianity; that view only belongs to those minorities and their cheerleaders, not history). Japan might be unique in Buddhist history in terms of the extent to which it institutionalized its violence and formed its own military (making Faure's claim all the more bizarre). It is fair to say that the "peace" component in Buddhism has always been more mainstream, not a minor countercurrent. That difference from Chr. and Isl. is more than significant. It is monumental. It may be a fair generalization, however, to note that once Buddhists institutionalize a mutually approving relationship to the State, or, as in the case of Tibet, etc., become the State, Buddhist militancy, violence (both approval and meting out) is not only tolerated but also institutionalized. That deserves to be carefully studied, not hidden away in the closet. Violence does become sacred, sadly, even in Buddhism. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 19 00:35:18 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:35:18 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard wrote: >Or read some books on the history of India and discover how Buddhists, >Hindus and Jains persecuted each other in just about every period of >history. Persecution can mean a variety of things. Sticking to physicial "violence" as the criterion, I am aware of Hindu and Buddhist episodes of violence, but have so far not seen Jains implicated (except in some hot-headed speech, and occasional factional outbreaks of misogyny). Do you have any actual episodes of physical violence in mind attributed to Jains? They are my last hold-out for a world religion that has successfully embodied ahimsa, not just in word but in deed. Are you saying that's not so? Dan From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Jan 19 04:41:45 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:41:45 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Do you have any actual episodes > of physical violence in mind attributed to Jains? They are my last hold-out > for a world religion that has successfully embodied ahimsa, not just in word > but in deed. Are you saying that's not so? > > Dan Despite their teachings of ahimsa isn't being a warrior one of the permitted occupations of a Jain? ~ Being a farmer isn't OK for Jains, because that kills insects, but they apparently have some Indic notion of "righteous war" (perhaps similar to that in the Bhagavad Gita). There were some Jain dynasties in parts of South India that wouldn't have lasted as long as they did without an army and it seems unlikely that they never used force to conquer neighbouring states. - C From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 19 08:20:16 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:20:16 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> Message-ID: <001601ca991a$f6a29510$2101a8c0@Dan> Hi Chris, > [Jains] apparently have some Indic notion > of "righteous war" (perhaps similar to that in the Bhagavad Gita). > > There were some Jain dynasties in parts of South India that wouldn't > have lasted as long as they did without an army and it seems unlikely > that they never used force to conquer neighbouring states. Reasonable assumption, unless they subcontracted to Shaivites or other mercenaries, which would not be exactly ahimsa either. Do we know of any actual incidents or campaigns under the Jain insignia? Thanks, Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 19 08:32:50 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:32:50 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> Message-ID: <004501ca991c$a8fc1ff0$2101a8c0@Dan> Ah, the wonders of google. " Though Abbakka was a Jain by faith her administration was well represented by Hindus and Muslims. Her army too consisted of people from all sects and caste including Moggaveeras, a fisher folk community. The first attack by the Portuguese in south Kanara coast was in 1525, when they destroyed the Mangalore port. Rani Abbakka was alerted by the incident and started preparing herself to protect her kingdom. In 1555, the Portuguese sent Admiral Don Alvaro da Silvereira against the Queen of Ullal Abbakka Devi Chowta who had refused to pay them the tribute. She fought with courage and intelligence and pushed them back." http://jainology.blogspot.com/2009/06/abbakka-rani-unsung-warrior-queen.html A Jain warrior queen (or actually composite sisters morphed into a single legendary queen). As Chris observed... otherwise they wouldn't be here anymore. Oh, well. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 19 08:41:30 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:41:30 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> Message-ID: <004801ca991d$df414b20$2101a8c0@Dan> Also re: Jain militancy: http://tinyurl.com/yb877uu starting around p. 173 or so. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 19 09:19:31 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> Message-ID: <004b01ca9923$2ed8b6a0$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard yesterday provided some passages from the book of Joshua -- apparently in response to Obama. That would have to be placed within the context of its times and the remainder of the Bible, which includes, as one of its 10 commandments, "Thou shalt not kill" (repeated twice: in Exodus and Deuteronomy), Isaiah's pacificistic utopia, etc., and clearly modified 2000 years ago by the Rabbinic tradition which canceled capital punishments and most of the other cruelties owing to their being were considered archaic and obsolete in Jewish law already then. 1600 years or so after the book of Joshua [or ca. 1000-1100 years if you consider Joshua post-exilic], another scripture, the Quran, weighed in. It has no ten commandments, and does not forbid killing outright (how could it -- Mohammed and the early Muslim community were fighting major battles throughout its writing -- the fourth sura, on women, one of the longest in the Quran, basically addresses the complaints of the women in the community, many of whom had become widowed by the fighting and demanded property rights, etc. -- Allah is merciful). A couple of times there are specific injunctions (once explicitly applied to women) to not kill one's own children [should be read allowed at Hamas and PA meetings] since that would negatively impact one's prosperity, and the only verse in the entire Quran that actually prohibits killing (aside from the two "don't kill your children" verses and Sura 6:151 which combines the gist of this verse with the "don't kill your children" verse) does so with a major caveat. Here is something you will not find in Buddhist scriptures: Sura 17 - Al-Isra (MAKKA) : Verse 33 ????? ??????????? ????????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ????????? ???????????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ????????? ? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???? (33) Wala taqtuloo alnnafsa allatee harrama Allahu illa bialhaqqi waman qutila mathlooman faqad jaAAalna liwaliyyihi sultanan fala yusrif fee alqatli innahu kana mansooran [cf. Sura 6:151] There is a shade of ambiguity to the verse, so exegetes have read it in several different ways. Here is a sampling: (33) And do not kill anyone whose killing All?h has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed wrongfully (Mazluman intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [(to demand Qis?s, Law of Equality in punishment? or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood - money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer). Verily, he is helped (by the Isl?mic law)[] Translation : Eng-Dr. Mohsin (33) And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided. Eng-Shakir (33) And do not take a life, which God has forbidden, except in a just cause. We have given the right (of redress) to the heir of the person who is killed, but he should not exceed the limits (of justice) by slaying (the killer), for he will be judged (by the same law). Eng-Ahmed Ali (33) And slay not the soul that God has forbidden you, except for just cause; for he who is slain unjustly we have given his next of kin authority; yet let him not exceed in slaying; verily, he is ever helped. Eng-Palmer (33) And slay not the soul that Allah has forbidden you (or made sacred), except for just cause; for he who is slain unjustly We have given authority to his heirs (or kin), yet let him not commit excess in slaying; verily, he will be helped. Eng-Hamid Aziz (33) And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped. Eng-Pickthal (33) Do not kill the soul whom Allah has forbidden except by right. If he is slain unjustly, We have given his heir authority. But let him not exceed the limit in slaying, for he will be helped. Eng-Hasan al-Fatih Qaribullah (33) And slay not the soul God has forbidden, except by right. Whosoever is slain unjustly, We have appointed to his next-of-kin authority; but let him not exceed in slaying; he shall be helped. Eng-Arthur Arberry (33) You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped. Eng-Rashad Kalifah (33) Do not take life, which God has made sacred, except by right: if anyone is killed wrongfully, We have given authority to the defender of his rights, but he should not be excessive in taking life, for he is already aided [by God]. Eng-Abdel Haleem (33) Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). Eng-Yusuf Ali (33) And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed unjustly, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Eng-Progressive Muslim Tafsir al-Jalalayn (a prominent 15th c. comm.) parses it thus: And do not slay the soul [whose life] God has made inviolable, except with due cause. Whoever is slain wrongfully, We have certainly given his heir, the one inheriting from him, a warrant, a sanction [to retaliate] against the slayer; but let him not commit excess, [let him not] overstep the bounds, in slaying, by slaying other than the killer [of the one slain], or by other than that [instrument] with which he [the slain] was killed; for he is supported [by the Law]. I suspect most members of this list would find the "Progressive Muslim" reading the least off-putting (maybe not?), but that is not the general sense detected by others. All condone revenge killing -- in fact, virtually demand it -- but the major variance is who/what is doing the "helping," God or the Law. Should come as no surprise the jurisprudential reading (i.e. in concert with sharia) opts for the "law". The theo-moralists opt for God. All of them wrap this caveat in the cloak of justice. And who, pray tell, has God forbidden to be killed? Why, other Muslims of course (unless they deserve it) (Sura 4:29). Go to http://al-quran.info for additional translations of this verse into a variety of languages (and many additional English versions). Do a search for "not kill" and see what comes up. God bless the internet. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 19 10:03:37 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:03:37 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <004801ca991d$df414b20$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan><4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> <004801ca991d$df414b20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Also re: Jain militancy: http://tinyurl.com/yb877uu starting around p. 173 or so. Dan -------------------- Looks like the Adipurana is the text of choice for Jainism/militarism. _The Assembly of listeners: Jains in society_ also sounds like a must-read for historical perspectives and information one doesn't usually get from regular old histories of India. JK From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 11:00:43 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:00:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 02:21 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Islam and Christianity also have a "peace" rhetorical counter-current, which > historically always tended to be a tentative minority, and frequently > persecuted, moreso in Islam than Christianity. But it is admirable that such > countercurrents exist at all, and they should be encouraged (without > adopting the false view that they represent "real" Islam" or "real" > Christianity; that view only belongs to those minorities and their > cheerleaders, not history). I agree with this up to a point. I think it is irresponsible to call ANY religious movement the "real" and definitively representative token for the religion to which it belongs. So I agree with Dan that it would be irresponsible to call the Brethren, the Quakers, the Mennonites and other so-called Peace churches the real Christianity. They may make that claim for themselves, but outsiders need no9t follow suit. At the same time, I think it is irresponsible to think of crusaders, inquisitors, and other destructive movements and moments the real Christianity. Insofar as currents and counter-currents exist and claim to represent religions, they are all real. Dan said a while back that a scholarly objectivity can be taken too far, giving the example of Aum Shinrikyo as a self-proclaimed Buddhist movement that scholars of Buddhism should not accept as Buddhist. Here I profoundly disagree with Dan. As an academic scholar teaching Buddhism, I see my task as involving, in principle at least, passing on information of everything that proclaims itself to be Buddhist. As a Buddhist, I am not especially drawn to Aum Shinrikyo. But as a professor in a secular university that has courses on Buddhism, I cannot and should not pass judgment on what is authentically Buddhist and what is not. In this, I agree with Natalie Quli (I think -- I have learned from her that I have misrepresented quite a bit of what she says). -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 11:25:29 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:25:29 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 02:35 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Persecution can mean a variety of things. Sticking to physicial "violence" > as the criterion, I am aware of Hindu and Buddhist episodes of violence, but > have so far not seen Jains implicated (except in some hot-headed speech, and > occasional factional outbreaks of misogyny). Do you have any actual episodes > of physical violence in mind attributed to Jains? They are my last hold-out > for a world religion that has successfully embodied ahimsa, not just in word > but in deed. Are you saying that's not so? I attended a fascinating session many years ago, back in the days when I went to meetings of professional societies such as the AAR, at which Phyllis Granoff and others presented papers on mutual intolerance and hostility between Jainas and Buddhists in Tamilnadu. There were acts of desecration of religious images, destruction of temples and even physical violence against persons resulting in death. Of course Jainas have the most absolutist rhetoric against ahimsa in the world, and when Jainism is practiced strictly, it is difficult to imagine any practice that could surpass starving oneself to death to avoid harming any living thing, including plants. But why should Jainas be except from being "human, all too human" like everyone else? To be surprised that a Jaina can be violent would be like being surprised that a Jewish friend is eating a ham and cheese sandwich or driving a car on Shabbat. Many of these discussions of the past week or so remind me of something that Wilfred Cantwell Smith, the professor who set the tone for religious studies at McGill for about fifty years, often said. To compare the very best of one's own tradition with the very worst of another tradition invariably results in unfair and lopsided comparison. Making that sort of comparison is the work of proselytizers, not scholars. The very best of Buddhism looks pretty good when compared to, say, the Spanish inquisition. But the very best of Christianity looks pretty good when compared to some of the antics of Buddhists in Japan during the Kamakura period. Cantwell Smith also urged people to be mindful of methodology. If one is looking at historical currents in religious traditions, then one should do that consistently. If one is looking at the philosophical ideals in different traditions, then one should consistently do that. It is very easy to slip into mindlessness (if that is the opposite of mindfulness) and to find oneself comparing the ideal of one tradition against the historical realities of another. People do this in subtle ways all the time, often without realizing they are doing so. (It is really just another version of comparing the best of one tradition with the worst of another. Usually the best of any tradition is its moral ideals, and usually the worst is its actual behavior.) -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 11:30:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:30:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <004501ca991c$a8fc1ff0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> <004501ca991c$a8fc1ff0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1263925814.4915.40.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 10:32 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > A Jain warrior queen (or actually composite sisters morphed into a single > legendary queen). > > As Chris observed... otherwise they wouldn't be here anymore. All of us are not going to be here anymore. The choice is not being surviving and perishing, but between living violently or peacefully before one perishes. From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 12:13:44 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:13:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <23408_1263925659_4B55F99B_23408_3262_1_1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <23408_1263925659_4B55F99B_23408_3262_1_1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1263928424.4915.44.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 11:25 -0700, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > Of course Jainas have the most absolutist rhetoric against ahimsa in > the world, The rhetoric, of course, if FOR ahimsa. What it's against is himsa. From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 12:17:20 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:17:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <10108_1263925922_4B55FAA2_10108_17_1_1263925814.4915.40.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> <004501ca991c$a8fc1ff0$2101a8c0@Dan> <10108_1263925922_4B55FAA2_10108_17_1_1263925814.4915.40.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1263928640.4915.47.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 11:30 -0700, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > The choice is not being surviving and perishing, The choice is not BETWEEN surviving and persihing.... Obviously, today I am between episodes of mindfulness. At least, I hope another fit of mindfulness lies ahead. Until then, I had better just write up lecture notes, where my mistakes won't matter. From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Jan 19 12:34:21 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:34:21 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <4C39077F-4FB3-48CC-BE2E-6831883E2D2B@mind2mind.net> Gang, Richard, following Wilfred Cantwell Smith, commented > It is very easy to slip into mindlessness (if that is the opposite > of mindfulness) and to find oneself comparing the ideal of one > tradition against the historical realities of another. People do > this in subtle ways all the time, often without realizing they are > doing so. This is precisely why Buddhism has such a good (and I have to admit, largely unfounded) image in America, and I suspect throughout the West. The type of Buddhism known in the West is primarily a convert/ modernist Buddhism that embodies a lot of what is best and least historical in Buddhism. Promoting this is a game that's been skillfully played from the time of Soyen Shaku and Anagarika Dharmapala through the present day of HH the XIVth Dalai Lama. This is not in itself a bad thing; it's just distorting. I think even Natalie Quli would agree that this is distorting, though it comes from an emic Buddhist position. Franz Metcalf From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Jan 19 12:47:36 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:47:36 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: Gang, One more reason the Buddhism practiced in the West is at an unfair advantage in a comparison to Christianity: It is effectively powerless. Nothing guarantees a religion a greater chance at living up to its ideals than a total or near total lack of access to power. And here it is Asian-American Buddhists who embody this truth best. They have the least power and money and social status; thus they are perfectly situated to follow narrow paths of Buddhism manifestly superior to wide and easy road of those unfortunate Christians who must walk the corridors of power. Franz Metcalf From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 19 12:48:05 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:48:05 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B559A79.3030105@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4B560C75.9080200@xs4all.nl> Op 19-1-2010 12:41, Chris Fynn schreef: > > Despite their teachings of ahimsa isn't being a warrior one of the > permitted occupations of a Jain? ~ Being a farmer isn't OK for Jains, > because that kills insects, but they apparently have some Indic notion > of "righteous war" (perhaps similar to that in the Bhagavad Gita). > > There were some Jain dynasties in parts of South India that wouldn't > have lasted as long as they did without an army and it seems unlikely > that they never used force to conquer neighbouring states. > > - C > I think there are a couple of questions mixed up in this thread. If you claim that one religion is more peaceful then another, you could mean different things: 1. followers are in general more peaceful 2. the teaching stimulates more peaceful behaviour 3. the history is less tainted by conflict Now 1. is a matter of culture and temperament, 2. is principal and 3. is coincidence. In general I think it's safe to say that any religion that is based on or appeals to racial, tribal or nationalistic motives is in for trouble. The Buddhist teachings have little room for this, but that doesn't mean that you cannot use them in such a context. Nothing more flexible than creative hermeneutics. I personally am very suspicious of religions who are not in favour of a duplex ordo. -- Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 19 15:55:28 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: .....As a Buddhist, I am not especially drawn to Aum Shinrikyo. But as a professor in a secular university that has courses on Buddhism, I cannot and should not pass judgment on what is authentically Buddhist and what is not. ..... Richard P. Hayes As I have pointed out recently on this list when I wrote about emics and etics, cultural critique is both emic and etic, both by insiders and outsiders. The emic critiques, so far as cults go, usually come from ex- members. Or, at least, they get published so we know about them, as contrasted with the others who get assassinated. As an example, see the recently re-published _Monkey on a Stick_, by an ex-member of ISKON. When it comes to Aum Shinrikyo, I'd etically critique its goals, practices and values without feeling any necessity to allude to its self-description as Buddhism. Toxicity to human life and/or to the environment cannot be ignored. That cult is/was so toxic to life on this planet that their beliefs can easily be criticised whether or not they claim to be Buddhist, Christians, or anything else. Such a critical practice can work for any human production, religious or not, political or not. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 19 16:16:16 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:16:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><004b01ca98d9$f31252f0$2101a8c0@Dan><1263925529.4915.37.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: Gang, ...... Nothing guarantees a religion a greater chance at living up to its ideals than a total or near total lack of access to power. And here it is Asian-American Buddhists who embody this truth best. They have the least power and money and social status; thus they are perfectly situated to follow narrow paths of Buddhism manifestly superior to wide and easy road of those unfortunate Christians who must walk the corridors of power. Franz Metcalf Sorry but I have to disagree on a sociological basis about Asian-American Buddhists having the "least power and money and social status," because the same can be said about women in general in the Americas (North and South). Aside from that, there are plenty of Asian-Americans of various Buddhist affiliations in this country who are rolling in dough either imported when the migrated here, earned from the many businesses they started, or from the high salaries they earn in silicon industries, and the professions. Some of them are very active behind the scenes in significant financial support to political organisations and politicians. Unfortunately, these are so rich that they only support Republicans. Joanna From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Jan 19 14:56:13 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:56:13 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > ... But to acknowledge that Christianity and Islam are special cases, and > clearly the worst offenders, doesn't let Buddhists, etc. off the hook > completely. Buddhists should never be let off the hook for anything. And thanks to Buddha's Immutable Law of Karma we never will be. ;) But the rhetoric employed by Jerryson, Juergensmeyer and their publisher seeks to blur all real distinctions between the more violent religions and the less violent ones -- and they emphatically state that this is precisely their aim. Until the larger distinctions are clear, the finer distinctions cannot possibly be understood. This has nothing to do with letting anyone off the hook, although it might have repercussions for the size of the hooks employed. Charges of religious violence intolerance are always treated with suspicion by those against whom the charges are being made (to state the obvious). This makes it incumbent on those making such accusations to provide some evidence of their objectivity. In my most recent post I did this by making frequent references to the writings of respected historians and religion scholars, including many contemporary scholars (as well as some old war horses I dragged out like Gibbon and Bury). That doesn't make me right, but it does make me not someone just spouting irresponsible unsupported accusations. But what steps have Jerryson & Co. taken to demonstrate that they are not just out to sensationalize this issue in order to sell books, or, worse, to "get" Buddhism? Doesn't making ludicrous accusations about conspiracies by "Buddhist monastic intellectuals", and lurid statements about Buddhism's "dark side" go in the other direction? More importantly, though, anyone genuinely concerned with the issues of religious violence and tolerance will want to draw attention to positive examples and negative examples and try to understand what makes them tick. They will also ask the difficult questions about systemic patterns of violence and intolerance as opposed to violence and intolerance that occur as aberrations. If Jerryson hadn't gone so far off the reservation in his self-promoting diatribe at religiondispatches.org he might be able to (just barely) claim that he is just trying to make a contribution to knowledge, like a good scholar. But he is clearly a man on a mission. It takes one to know one. Just one last thing on Japan. There was a stiff competition, but I believe that Imperial Japan earned a place in the Top Four Most Murderous Regimes of the 20th Century competition. The other three were the Third Reich, the USSR and the PRC. The honorable mentions are too numerous, and too dishonorable, to mention. I always find myself wondering: how in blue blazes could anyone claim that this comes as a surprise? Any more than it is a surprise that Buddhism is one of the major religions of Japan, and was all during the Imperial period? People may have suppressed these facts in their own minds, but most of the world already knows this (well, at least that tiny minority of humanity who can find Japan on a map of the world). Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 16:42:06 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:42:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1263944526.17342.5.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 15:55 -0700, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > When it comes to Aum Shinrikyo, I'd etically critique its goals, > practices and values without feeling any necessity to allude to > its self-description as Buddhism. I see no need to critique its goals. My approach is to describe their goals as they state them and let people decide for themselves what they think of them. I also do not see why one would not report the claim of the group that it is Buddhist. -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From natalie at shin-ibs.edu Tue Jan 19 17:06:39 2010 From: natalie at shin-ibs.edu (Natalie Quli) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:06:39 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez (Franz Metcalf) Message-ID: <554133c71001191606s86b66b7l928c0cc326556f4d@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lovely list, Richard wrote: As an academic scholar teaching Buddhism, > I see my task as involving, in principle at least, passing on > information of everything that proclaims itself to be Buddhist. As a > Buddhist, I am not especially drawn to Aum Shinrikyo. But as a professor > in a secular university that has courses on Buddhism, I cannot and > should not pass judgment on what is authentically Buddhist and what is > not. In this, I agree with Natalie Quli (I think -- I have learned from > her that I have misrepresented quite a bit of what she says). Well in this case I would totally agree. Aum Shinrikyo may be horribly deranged, but they do claim continuity with Buddhism and can demonstrate some of those continuities as well. They may be creepy or evil, but creepy and evil does not mean inauthentic. It's just one more layer of discourse in a tradition that changes over time. From a secular perspective one discourse is no more authentic than another, but perhaps it is less popular, has more discontinuities, etc. Franz wrote: > Promoting this is a game that's been > skillfully played from the time of Soyen Shaku and Anagarika > Dharmapala through the present day of HH the XIVth Dalai Lama. This is > not in itself a bad thing; it's just distorting. I think even Natalie > Quli would agree that this is distorting, though it comes from an emic > Buddhist position. > Sorry, I still don't consider this distortion. It's transformation, it's discontinuity, perhaps it's even deceptive, but as a scholar I'm not going to call it a distortion. Buddhism changes, and sometimes those changes are the result of cultural influences, behaviors, or attitudes that I don't like. Oh well. My job isn't to find and advocate authentic Buddhism, it's just to describe self-proclaimed Buddhists and their worlds. Cheers, Natalie From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 19 17:07:02 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:07:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1263944526.17342.5.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1263944526.17342.5.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 15:55 -0700, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > When it comes to Aum Shinrikyo, I'd etically critique its goals, > practices and values without feeling any necessity to allude to its > self-description as Buddhism. R.H. I see no need to critique its goals. My approach is to describe their goals as they state them and let people decide for themselves what they think of them. I also do not see why one would not report the claim of the group that it is Buddhist. J.K. "...without feeling any necessity to allude to its self-description as Buddhism." What I meant by this was not feeling any necessity to qualify whether they are Buddhist or not Buddhist according to their, my, or others' definitions. However, to "describe their goals" without describing their practice(s) would be to present a very one-sided report. Once the practices become part of the discussion, then the critique inevitably follows, unless you choose to censor critical thought. In fact, I fail to see how you can teach anything without resorting to some sort of critique(s). From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 19 17:17:03 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:17:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1263944526.17342.5.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1263946623.17871.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 17:07 -0700, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > However, to "describe their goals" without describing their > practice(s) would be to present a very one-sided report. Of course. > Once the > practices become part of the discussion, then the critique > inevitably follows, unless you choose to censor critical thought. The critique is not mine to make. My job is not to predispose students to judge goals and their practices one way or another. That is for students to do for themselves. -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 19 20:58:28 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:58:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1263946623.17871.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop><1263944526.17342.5.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1263946623.17871.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <9EC4F83EF5B24C9489E7FCCB6EC3FDFA@OPTIPLEX> > Once the > practices become part of the discussion, then the critique inevitably > follows, unless you choose to censor critical thought. RH The critique is not mine to make. My job is not to predispose students to judge goals and their practices one way or another. That is for students to do for themselves. JK Intelligent students will prompt you to deal with their critiques if you refuse to make one yourself, and so you will end up making one anyway. From stroble at hawaii.edu Tue Jan 19 23:49:42 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:49:42 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Subject=3A_the_poignancy_of_Donald_Lope?= =?iso-8859-1?q?z_=28_Franz=09Metcalf_=29?= In-Reply-To: <554133c71001191606s86b66b7l928c0cc326556f4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <554133c71001191606s86b66b7l928c0cc326556f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201001192049.43339.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Tuesday 19 January 2010 14:06:39 Natalie Quli wrote: > Hi Lovely list, > Lovely List? This is the first time I have ever heard Buddha-ell refered to like this! > Richard wrote: > > As an academic scholar teaching Buddhism, > > > I see my task as involving, in principle at least, passing on > > information of everything that proclaims itself to be Buddhist. As a > > Buddhist, I am not especially drawn to Aum Shinrikyo. But as a professor > > in a secular university that has courses on Buddhism, I cannot and > > should not pass judgment on what is authentically Buddhist and what is > > not. In this, I agree with Natalie Quli (I think -- I have learned from > > her that I have misrepresented quite a bit of what she says). > > Well in this case I would totally agree. Aum Shinrikyo may be horribly > deranged, but they do claim continuity with Buddhism and can demonstrate > some of those continuities as well. They may be creepy or evil, but creepy > and evil does not mean inauthentic. It's just one more layer of discourse > in a tradition that changes over time. From a secular perspective one > discourse is no more authentic than another, but perhaps it is less > popular, has more discontinuities, etc. Maybe it is my ignorance as a student of Buddhism, but I think the entire eschatological tradition of apocalypse is foreign to Buddhism, or even if we have the Age of Mappo, the idea of a religious duty to bring about the apocalypse is ultimately foreign to Buddhism. Now I say this as an offender: I look for philosoophical consistency in a religion, which may be the wrong place to look. There certainly parts of Japanese culture that toy with this. But again, it is foreign to Buddhism. And of course I have objections to the importation of "just war" thinking into Buddhism, which I also think is foreign, but that is not really a big deal, since I think that it is also foreign to philosophically consistent Christianity (and Islam---but I could just be baiting Lusthaus, which is not very Buddhist of me). > > Franz wrote: > > Promoting this is a game that's been > > skillfully played from the time of Soyen Shaku and Anagarika > > Dharmapala through the present day of HH the XIVth Dalai Lama. This is > > not in itself a bad thing; it's just distorting. I think even Natalie > > Quli would agree that this is distorting, though it comes from an emic > > Buddhist position. > > Sorry, I still don't consider this distortion. It's transformation, it's > discontinuity, perhaps it's even deceptive, but as a scholar I'm not going > to call it a distortion. Buddhism changes, and sometimes those changes are > the result of cultural influences, behaviors, or attitudes that I don't > like. Oh well. My job isn't to find and advocate authentic Buddhism, it's > just to describe self-proclaimed Buddhists and their worlds. > > Cheers, > Natalie Orientalism? What religions actually do is not all that interesting to me. Sorry. -- James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 01:37:36 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:37:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> Curt, I'm not concerned about Jerryson or interested in questioning his motives. The book addresses an important topic that has been overlooked, ignored and pilloried for too long. Brian Victoria's work received the same kind of reaction when it first came out (and on this list, as I remember). I don't know Jerryson, but do know Victoria to some extent, and it seems to me that both exemplify a very Nietzschian principle. Nietzsche argued that nihilism -- in the sense of a pessimistic disbelief in anything good or ideal, esp. rejection of a culture's major positive ideals -- was a byproduct of too much belief, too much naivite, particularly in what is ultimately unsupportable by reality. When the belief is shattered by reality, one plummets into the abyss. (Nietzsche of course put this much more elegantly and poignantly). The meaningful ground on which one stands, on which one has stood, has crumbled and disappeared, and all that remains is meaninglessness. Victoria became a Soto monk in Japan because of a certain romanticized, idealized (pick whichever term you wish) notion of what Buddhism is. When he discovered his image and the reality did not mesh, he did NOT become a nihilistic grumbler, but remained a Ja-sagender and took on the Soto establishment and Japanese Buddhism -- as well as the western pro-Buddhist establishment that was, in what perhaps we might here coin as neo-Orientalism, enamored with its own erroneous, manufactured image of "Zen" and "Buddhism" as left-leaning, crunchy, veggie-consuming, pacifistic universalists who embraced spiritual progress instead of institutional regulatory-religion. He's weathered the storm in Japan and in the West, and has even elicited some positive results (including formal apologies to Dutch POWs from the Soto establishment, not a hollow or easy ritual in Japanese culture -- Japan has still not fully apologized to the rest of Asia for what it did to them during the war, which remains a regional sore point). Jerryson, it would seem, experienced his own disillusion in similar fashion, and one hopes that his response will produce positive results in the long run as well. Discussion and analysis of Buddhist violence is long overdue. As we can see, simply acknowledging it exists, has existed, has been institutionalized, and has played an important, not peripheral role in many of the West's favorite forms of Buddhism (contrary to the image they still retain here), is still difficult. Because its existence has been denied and suppressed, or at best downplayed (a tradition Faure apparently is willing to continue), there will initially be a tendency to exaggerate and over-emphasize it, just to get it legitimately placed on the map. The relative degrees of violence between religions will get sorted out eventually (note in our culture we still have PC obstructions hindering open discussion of violence in Islam, and, as mentioned, Christians prefer to embrace historical amnesia or play dissociation games). From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 20 01:52:38 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 09:52:38 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> Op 19-1-2010 23:55, JKirkpatrick schreef: > .....As a Buddhist, I am not especially drawn to Aum Shinrikyo. > But as a professor in a secular university that has courses on > Buddhism, I cannot and should not pass judgment on what is > authentically Buddhist and what is not. ..... > > Richard P. Hayes > > > > When it comes to Aum Shinrikyo, I'd etically critique its goals, > practices and values without feeling any necessity to allude to > its self-description as Buddhism. Peter Whinch wrote a little book called 'The idea of a social science', where he argues that social sciences are typically different from physics etc. The idea is that you cannot understand the terms of a subject of a social science like buddhology without reference to what they mean for them and for you. Peace f.i. is not a kind of objective behaviour, it is something people do towards each other and understand as such. The same with lying, meditation, nirv??a, etc. So essential for the research in Buddhism are judgements about the hermeneutics of the teaching and about ethics of behaviour. If you would like to be impartial you would have to describe the mass murder in terms like 'they released some gases in the tube station and lifeforms present there stopped functioning', which is not a very adequate description. -- Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 01:58:36 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:58:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez ( Franz Metcalf ) References: <554133c71001191606s86b66b7l928c0cc326556f4d@mail.gmail.com> <201001192049.43339.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <004a01ca99ae$c08b14e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Andy, > Maybe it is my ignorance as a student of Buddhism, but I think the entire > eschatological tradition of apocalypse is foreign to Buddhism, or even if > we > have the Age of Mappo, the idea of a religious duty to bring about the > apocalypse is ultimately foreign to Buddhism. To hold that view you must have some idea of what "Buddhism" is. Since historically Buddhism -- in pretty much all its forms -- embraced exactly what you wish to reject, and fairly early on in the game, there is a definition problem. You want to reserve the word "Buddhism," and more specifically the idea of what you would like "Buddhism" to represent, to a certain set of ideas that pretty much excludes all actual forms of Buddhism. Do you see a problem with this? > of course I have objections to the importation of "just war" thinking into > Buddhism, which I also think is foreign, The word "importation" is misleading. It's already there, discussed and accepted by leading Buddhist figures such as Asanga, Bhavaviveka, Kuiji and Tsongkhapa. While they don't justify all out war (just strategic assassination, without which the Tibetan tradition believes Tibet might never have become Buddhist!), they do think killing Hitler would have been a good idea. No one on this list has suggested that we conjure up an excuse or justification for Buddhist warriors, etc. On the contrary... >but that is not really a big deal, > since I think that it is also foreign to philosophically consistent > Christianity (and Islam---but I could just be baiting Lusthaus, which is > not > very Buddhist of me). How much weight do Christianity or Islam put on being philosophically consistent? Ever heard of the Magisterium and its official Mysteries? The most consistent (and profound) of muslim philosophers -- Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes) were pilloried by the tradition, which instead embraced Ghazzali and his Tahafut al-Falasifa (Incoherence of Philosophy). Ibn Rushd's response to Ghazzali, Tahafut al-Tahafut (The Incoherence of Incoherence), one of the great masterpieces of world philosophy, has always had a more receptive audience outside Islam. Both Tahafuts, btw, are available in English translation (check google or amazon). Recommended reading (while you are at it, you might want to explore their views on the permissibility of violence). Dan the unbaited From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 07:49:58 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 07:49:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org> <004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> "remained a Jasagender"........... Remained a what??? Come on, Dan, if you are going to use totally unfamiliar terms then kindly explain or translate them. ------------------- ........Victoria became a Soto monk in Japan because of a certain romanticized, idealized (pick whichever term you wish) notion of what Buddhism is. When he discovered his image and the reality did not mesh, he did NOT become a nihilistic grumbler, but remained a Ja-sagender and took on the Soto establishment and Japanese Buddhism -- ......... Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 08:08:32 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 08:08:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: JK > When it comes to Aum Shinrikyo, I'd etically critique its goals, > practices and values without feeling any necessity to allude to its > self-description as Buddhism. Erik: Peter Whinch wrote a little book called 'The idea of a social science', where he argues that social sciences are typically different from physics etc. The idea is that you cannot understand the terms of a subject of a social science like buddhology without reference to what they mean for them and for you. Peace f.i. is not a kind of objective behaviour, it is something people do towards each other and understand as such. The same with lying, meditation, nirv??a, etc. So essential for the research in Buddhism are judgements about the hermeneutics of the teaching and about ethics of behaviour. If you would like to be impartial you would have to describe the mass murder in terms like 'they released some gases in the tube station and lifeforms present there stopped functioning', which is not a very adequate description. JK: Agreed; and eloquently put, Erik. I'd like to add this, if I may: ?The unexamined life is not worth living,? as Socrates said at his trial for heresy. Most social science scholars, if not religion scholars perhaps, take this view of their lives and work. Examining "life" includes examining social institutions and evaluating them. People may differ about the criteria for such examinations (a.k.a. developing the critique of culture), but examine we must. Writing op eds and journalism doesn't cut it for scholarship. Being politically correct, to avoid censure from believers or extreme relativists, doesn't cut it, either. From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 08:09:41 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 08:09:41 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <9EC4F83EF5B24C9489E7FCCB6EC3FDFA@OPTIPLEX> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1263944526.17342.5.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1263946623.17871.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <9EC4F83EF5B24C9489E7FCCB6EC3FDFA@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1264000181.2915.1.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 20:58 -0700, Joanna Kirkpatrick wrote: > Intelligent students will prompt you to deal with their critiques > if you refuse to make one yourself, and so you will end up making > one anyway. My policy is to remain neutral. I'm a madhyamaka, hence a moral relativist. All true Buddhists are. From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 08:14:35 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 08:14:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org> <004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1264000475.2915.3.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 07:49 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > "remained a Jasagender"........... > Remained a what??? > Come on, Dan, if you are going to use totally unfamiliar terms > then kindly explain or translate them. A Yes-sayer. I think think is supposed to be tyhe opposite of a naysayer. (Better brush up on your Deutsch and Yiddish, Joanna, if you want to keep up with the subtle dialectics of buddha-l.) From bshmr at aol.com Wed Jan 20 11:03:17 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:03:17 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence Message-ID: <1264010597.19956.25.camel@aims110> Denizens, Informative piece (appended inline) which illustrates one aspect of a non-monastic, pacifist tradition and does make one curious about the relative few in number of their denomination in the Occident today. This triggered speculation on asceticism as well as "proselytizing by example", among other flights of fancy. Richard Basham ** http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8467833.stm How did Quakers conquer the British sweet shop? Fry's, Cadbury's and Rowntree's - all Quaker companies By Peter Jackson; BBC News; 13:54 GMT, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 For a religious sect more interested in championing social reform than industry, the Quakers have established an impressive roll call of household business names. Barclays and Lloyds banks, Clarks shoes, Bryant & May matches and the biscuit firms Huntley & Palmers and Carrs are just a few of the companies founded by members of the pacifist group. But when it comes to confectionery, there has been a virtual monopoly for more than a century, led by Cadbury of Birmingham, Fry's of Bristol and Rowntree's and Terrys of York. This achievement is all the more remarkable given the tiny numbers of Quakers. In 1851 they only accounted for about one in 1,400 of the population of 21 million in England, Scotland and Wales - less than 0.1%. ... From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 11:09:54 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:09:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 08:08 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > ?The unexamined life is not worth living,? as Socrates said at his trial for heresy. You cite my hero. As you point out, Socrates was put on trial for corrupting the youth and for impiety, or dishonouring the gods, and the way in which he did it was to encourage people to find their own answers to important questions and to question those who provide superficial answers. He taught people to think critically. He did not give them a ready-made critique. That is precisely what I advocate doing (and try to do in the classroom). In the context of the issue under question, I am never going to give my students a facile, ready-made critique of Aum Shinrikyo, but I hope I am constantly giving them the tools they need to reach their own conclusions by themselves, and I trust them to do it. > Writing op eds and journalism doesn't cut it for scholarship. It is no substitute for scholarship, but neither is scholarship a substitute for writing opinion pieces. One of the things I love about the European philosophical scene (in some countries at least) is that philosophers have a sense of social responsibility and find an outlet for their thoughts in the so-called "popular" media. I think that's great, although I think it is important to do one's editorializing outside the classroom. > Being politically correct, to avoid censure from believers or extreme relativists, doesn't cut it, either. I ma not sure what the term "politically correct" means any more. It used to be a very positive term that meant speaking and writing with care, so a not to offend people unnecessarily through careless speech. Learning not to call a 40-year-old woman a girl, and avoiding offensive phrases such as "jew down" instead of "barter" was what people meant by political correctness. I still believe in being politically correct in that sense. Unfortunately, the phrase has been turned into a term of abuse to denigrate liberals. liberally and politically correctly yours, -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jan 20 10:32:16 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" Message-ID: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> I'm wondering how many people can tell the difference between the following two statements. 1. Westerners have consistently misunderstood and misrepresented Buddhism. 2. A sinister cabal of Buddhist monastic intellectuals and their brainwashed western academic stooges have engaged in a systematic propaganda campaign to defraud the general public by hiding the Dark Side of Buddhism from the world. Just curious. Curt Steinmetz From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 11:16:10 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:16:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" In-Reply-To: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> References: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 12:32 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > I'm wondering how many people can tell the difference between the > following two statements. > > 1. Westerners have consistently misunderstood and misrepresented Buddhism. > > 2. A sinister cabal of Buddhist monastic intellectuals and their > brainwashed western academic stooges have engaged in a systematic > propaganda campaign to defraud the general public by hiding the Dark > Side of Buddhism from the world. Well, both are false. The second one is more wordy than the first. In general, I think if one is going to say something false, it is better to be concise, so I prefer the first statement to the second. -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From dingirfecho at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 11:17:50 2010 From: dingirfecho at gmail.com (Federico Andino) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:17:50 -0300 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" In-Reply-To: <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <7acd6e351001201017m127f3601s25dc04e34fbdaf4f@mail.gmail.com> However, I would posit that you could make a movie out of the second and not out of the first, so in samsaric terms, the cabal wins. On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 12:32 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > > > I'm wondering how many people can tell the difference between the > > following two statements. > > > > 1. Westerners have consistently misunderstood and misrepresented > Buddhism. > > > > 2. A sinister cabal of Buddhist monastic intellectuals and their > > brainwashed western academic stooges have engaged in a systematic > > propaganda campaign to defraud the general public by hiding the Dark > > Side of Buddhism from the world. > > Well, both are false. The second one is more wordy than the first. In > general, I think if one is going to say something false, it is better to > be concise, so I prefer the first statement to the second. > > -- > Richard P. Hayes > University of New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 11:42:07 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:42:07 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: Interesting that you assume that only you do not make use of ready-made critiques. JK On Behalf Of Richard P. Hayes Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 11:10 AM On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 08:08 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > "The unexamined life is not worth living," as Socrates said at his trial for heresy. Socrates .... did not give them a ready-made critique. That is precisely what I advocate doing (and try to do in the classroom). In the context of the issue under question, I am never going to give my students a facile, ready-made critique of Aum Shinrikyo, but I hope I am constantly giving them the tools they need to reach their own conclusions by themselves, and I trust them to do it. From franz at mind2mind.net Wed Jan 20 12:03:29 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:03:29 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez In-Reply-To: <554133c71001191606s86b66b7l928c0cc326556f4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <554133c71001191606s86b66b7l928c0cc326556f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9010380A-3668-429D-83CC-50B26C080BE6@mind2mind.net> Natalie et al., On Jan 19, 2010, at 4:06 PM, Natalie Quli wrote: >> Promoting this is a game that's been >> skillfully played from the time of Soyen Shaku and Anagarika >> Dharmapala through the present day of HH the XIVth Dalai Lama. >> This is not in itself a bad thing; it's just distorting. I think >> even Natalie >> Quli would agree that this is distorting, though it comes from an >> emic >> Buddhist position. > > Sorry, I still don't consider this distortion. It's transformation, > it's > discontinuity, perhaps it's even deceptive, but as a scholar I'm not > going > to call it a distortion. Buddhism changes, and sometimes those > changes are > the result of cultural influences, behaviors, or attitudes that I > don't > like. Oh well. My job isn't to find and advocate authentic Buddhism, > it's > just to describe self-proclaimed Buddhists and their worlds. I would be happy to compromise with you and go with "deceptive" or "discontinuous." But can you? If your job as a Buddhologist is "just to describe," I think you can't allow yourself the freedom to be evaluative. Thus "deceptive" is out, though maybe "discontinuous" is still in. Still, I do think I can evaluate, indeed am *called* to evaluate contemporary Buddhist or would-be Buddhist forms based on their overlap with past Buddhist forms. Richard wrote that he could "not pass judgment on what is authentically Buddhist." You agreed. But I believe a specialist scholar of contemporary Japanese Buddhism, with a solid background in Buddhist history and Japanese New Religions *can* assert that Aum Shinrikyo is in some ways continuous with Buddhism and in some ways not. Are you seriously saying such a scholar cannot do so? If it's only Buddhologists who cannot do so, no wonder I decided to be trained as a psychologist and anthropologist instead! Without the ability to do more than describe, what is the use of Buddhology? This question is applicable to and debated in various human sciences. I'm sure you've read some of these debates, and it seems you've taken a position fairly well out on one side. I'd like to hear (when you have time) what makes you comfortable out there. Good wishes, Franz From knut_heidelberg at yahoo.com Wed Jan 20 12:34:08 2010 From: knut_heidelberg at yahoo.com (Knut Heidelberg) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:34:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] How to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka? Message-ID: <947432.33599.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Traveling from Norway to Sri Lanka next year. Want to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka. That is all I know. Someone please guide me :-) Mvh./ Yours, Knut K.S.M. Heidelberg http://heidelberg.no _________________________________________________________ Alt i ett. F? Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 13:02:52 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:02:52 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> > "remained a Jasagender"........... > Remained a what??? > Come on, Dan, if you are going to use totally unfamiliar terms > then kindly explain or translate them. > Joanna, it's German (Ja = yes, sagende = sayer; Ja-sagender = "Yes" sayer, i.e., an affirmer, not a nihilist), a Nietzschian term. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 13:12:43 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:12:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1264018363.3235.2.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 11:42 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Interesting that you assume that only you do not make use of > ready-made critiques. That is no one my assumptions. My assumption is that most people teaching at the university level avoid ready-made critiques. From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jan 20 11:42:05 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:42:05 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" In-Reply-To: <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <4B574E7D.4080709@cola.iges.org> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > Well, both are false. The second one is more wordy than the first. In > general, I think if one is going to say something false, it is better to > be concise, so I prefer the first statement to the second. > > Actually, it's good to be flexible about these things. There are times when obfuscation is called for, and then the more words, with the more syllables, the better. At other times, falsehood is best served by simple, direct, declarative statements repeated over and over. It's always good to check whether one's target audience is more likely to watch PBS or FOX. Either way you are half-way there already. Curt From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 20 13:15:50 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:15:50 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> Op 20-1-2010 19:09, Richard P. Hayes schreef: > On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 08:08 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Socrates was put on trial for > corrupting the youth and for impiety, or dishonouring the gods, and the > way in which he did it was to encourage people to find their own answers > to important questions and to question those who provide superficial > answers. He taught people to think critically. He did not give them a > ready-made critique. That is precisely what I advocate doing (and try to > do in the classroom). In the context of the issue under question, I am > never going to give my students a facile, ready-made critique of Aum > Shinrikyo, but I hope I am constantly giving them the tools they need to > reach their own conclusions by themselves, and I trust them to do it. > Come on, Richard. The Japanese sect was poisoning innocent people in order to blackmail Japanese society and the Buddha spent 40 years wandering and explaining everyone who would listen how to get free from desire and worldly troubles. After explaining this to your students you ask them to find out for themselves if the Japanese Aumcult acted according to the words of the Buddha. They must find this an impossible task! Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 13:19:38 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:19:38 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 15:02 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > a Nietzschian term William Safire would like me to remind you the term is "Nietzschean." From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 13:23:21 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:23:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1264019001.3235.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 21:15 +0100, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Come on, Richard. The Japanese sect was poisoning innocent people in > order to blackmail Japanese society and the Buddha spent 40 years > wandering and explaining everyone who would listen how to get free > from desire and worldly troubles. After explaining this to your > students you ask them to find out for themselves if the Japanese > Aumcult acted according to the words of the Buddha. They must find > this an impossible task! Some of my brighter students can figure it out. The rest just continue trying to put poison gas into the Albuquerque subway system. Fortunately, Albuquerque does not have a subway system, so their efforts to make the world safe from terrorism by killing everyone in sight do not have what William James would call "cash value." From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 13:26:56 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:26:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" In-Reply-To: <4B574E7D.4080709@cola.iges.org> References: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B574E7D.4080709@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1264019216.3235.13.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 13:42 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > There are times > when obfuscation is called for, and then the more words, with the > more > syllables, the better. At other times, falsehood is best served by > simple, direct, declarative statements repeated over and over. You have to bear in mind that most of the people I talk to think that a text is something they get on their mobile phone. I don't have the luxury of using multisyllabic words. N fct i cnt evn uz mny vwls. Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 13:33:29 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:33:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard observed: >> a Nietzschian term > > William Safire would like me to remind you the term is "Nietzschean." Actually Safire was a firm believer that actual usage, rather than stuffy authoritarian dictate or a notion of inviolate grammar, determined "correct" usage. Either version is justifiable. Thanks for noticing. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 13:40:34 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:40:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] How to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka? In-Reply-To: <947432.33599.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <947432.33599.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1264020034.3235.27.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 11:34 -0800, Knut Heidelberg wrote: > Want to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka. > That is all I know. > Someone please guide me :-) >From Norway to go to India and turn left. Cross some water. That will get you to Sri Lanka. A friend of mine from Sri Lanka told me that when he decided to become a monk, he went to a monastery and stated his intentions. The abbot said "That is a very good thing," and sent him away. My friend realized he had not made much progress toward his goal, so he went back to discuss his plan in more detail. The monk said "Trying skipping your evening meal for six months," and sent him away. The next time we went back, the abbot invited him to try out the monastic life for six months or so as a lay person. About four years after my friend stated his intentions, he was finally given a set of robes and invited to be a samanera. In my friend's case, the caution was probably seen as necessary because he was in his 30s and had been married and raised children. It had been the experience of the abbot that when men get much beyond the age of 17, they rarely stick it out as monks. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 13:45:42 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:45:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> <002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 15:33 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Actually Safire was a firm believer that actual usage, rather than > stuffy > authoritarian dictate or a notion of inviolate grammar, determined > "correct" > usage. Either version is justifiable. No one has ever used the form "Nietzschian," so it fails the test of usage. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 13:59:43 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:59:43 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard wrote: > > No one has ever used the form "Nietzschian," so it fails the test of > usage. Since you insist -- why don't you check the facts before pronouncing judgement. In fact, it is often considered the *proper* form and is used constantly. on Nietzschean (with an "-ean") http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nietzschean http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39313 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-eteraz/obama-is-nietzschean_b_93429.html http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Nietzschean etc Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 14:05:51 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> And, per usage dictates, Nietzschian with an "-ian" http://www.forvo.com/word/nietzschian/ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/949631/posts http://yolksoc.blogspot.com/2006/10/batailles-nietzschian-community.html https://webspace.utexas.edu/rws382/www/hacking/nietzsche.html So by Safire's dictum, both forms are justifiable. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 14:14:06 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:14:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <7784_1264018463_4B57641F_7784_28_1_1264018363.3235.2.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <7784_1264018463_4B57641F_7784_28_1_1264018363.3235.2.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1264022046.3727.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 13:12 -0700, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > That is no one my assumptions. The neural pathways between my brain and my fingers has been breaking down with age. I am amazed these days at what I type. I am even more amazed that when I proofread my messages before sending them out, I tend to see what I meant to write rather than what is actually on the screen. One of the (dubious) benefits of getting older is that the subtle processes that have been going on throughout life (such as seeing what I want to see and disregarding the rest) become much more glaring. Some of my flaws become so patent that even I can see them, which annoys the hell out of me. I much prefer being blind to my own shortcomings, because seeing my own distracts me so much from the important business of seeing everyone else's. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 14:22:13 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:22:13 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> <002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1264022533.3727.16.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 15:59 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Richard wrote: > > > > No one has ever used the form "Nietzschian," so it fails the test of > > usage. > > Since you insist -- why don't you check the facts before pronouncing > judgement. I can't believe what a literalist you are, Dan. I should have thought it would be obvious that my statement had to be read in context. Clearly what I was saying is that no one who currently occupies the office in room 525 of the Humanities building on the campus of the University of New Mexico has ever used the form "Nietzschian." I was speaking strictly about only my own usage. Others, of course, spell the word in whatever way they like. You should know by now that I do not make pronouncements on the conduct or the spelling of others. The word, by the way, is "judgment" (unless you are in Canada or Great Britain). From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 20 14:32:00 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:32:00 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> Op 20-1-2010 22:05, Dan Lusthaus schreef: > And, per usage dictates, > > Nietzschian with an "-ian" > > http://www.forvo.com/word/nietzschian/ > > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/949631/posts > > http://yolksoc.blogspot.com/2006/10/batailles-nietzschian-community.html > > https://webspace.utexas.edu/rws382/www/hacking/nietzsche.html > > That's the trouble with democracy and the internet, the mob decides. The man's name was Nietzsche, not Nietzschi or Nietzschie and he was proud of it because it is of Polish origin. erik From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 14:36:34 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:36:34 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan><003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <007f01ca9a18$a40739b0$2101a8c0@Dan> > That's the trouble with democracy and the internet, the mob decides. The > man's name was Nietzsche, not Nietzschi or Nietzschie and he was proud > of it because it is of Polish origin. > > erik Actually, Erik, that's freedom. Spell it any way you like, as long as you can get others to do the same. That, by the way, is a Nietzschian/Nietzschean dictum: "When one person says it, you have a theory; when two say it, you have the beginnings of Truth." Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 14:41:51 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:41:51 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop><003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264022533.3727.16.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <008801ca9a19$607d8860$2101a8c0@Dan> > The word, by the way, is "judgment" (unless you are in Canada or Great > Britain). Actually, once again, either with or without the "e" is acceptable. Does this obsession with "e"-s and correctness come from too many years of reading Panini? (Though most Panini-ites usually complain they never found enough time to devote to him) (or is that paninians? panineans? He wasn't Polish, was he? They did name a sandwich after him...) Dan From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 14:43:06 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1264010597.19956.25.camel@aims110> References: <1264010597.19956.25.camel@aims110> Message-ID: Denizens, Informative piece (appended inline) which illustrates one aspect of a non-monastic, pacifist tradition and does make one curious about the relative few in number of their denomination in the Occident today. This triggered speculation on asceticism as well as "proselytizing by example", among other flights of fancy. Richard Basham http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8467833.stm JK: Reminded me that the great American Quaker vernacular painter of some 61 versions of his Peaceable Kingdom idea in pictures, Edward Hicks, was also a coach painter and a sign painter. He tried being a preacher but wasn't successful, as for one thing he made too much money from business to satisfy the Quakers with whom he consorted. After he left off preaching, he returned to painting and was able to support his wife and numerous children. The Wikipedia article about him is in error in citing the Noah's ark theme from the Bible as the inspiration for his paintings of mixed animals in the peaceable kingdom. Instead, it was clearly based on verses from Isaiah 11:6-8. Buddhist content: While visiting temples in northern Thailand, at Wat Phra That Haripunjaya in Lamphun town, quite by lucky accident I found a Buddhist depiction of a peaceable kingdom in the wall paintings of a small side temple located near the main temple in the compound. It was part of the temple's mural illustrations of the Phra Malai story. A Thai archaeologist, Professor Prateep Chumpol, explained that "The age of the building might not be similar to the painting. It should be older since conservation and restoration in the old days were not so good. It is possible that this painting might be on top of the old damaged one. ...The painting [was probably] done around the year 1957." The picture resembles many of Hicks's peaceable kingdom pictures in representing humans of different ethnicities (in Hicks these are Quaker merchants and Delaware Indians) in the foreground, and animals of different species including leopards and elephants (predators and prey) in the background, with a cow to far right--all on the same side of a large river that winds into the distance. (Hicks's arrangement is the reverse, with animals and the baby Jesus in the foreground.) Difference of ethnicity can, under certain circumstances, signify political contention and war, as difference in general can rhetorically suggest contention. Included in the mix of peoples is a blond male westerner in blue jeans, shaking hands with a sarong-wearing southeast Asian person (unknown if man or woman). An African shaking hands with a turbaned Sikh with sword dangling at his side are also discernible. Above all, the Buddha, floating in the heavens on a lotus blossom, oversees his peaceable kingdom where humans and animals are quiet and non-destructive. So this is a modern vernacular painting in a much older Buddhist chapel. I would love to know when this motif entered Thai vernacular art. Sadly, I've not yet read Bonnie Pacala Brereton, _Thai Tellings of Phra Malai: Texts and Rituals Concerning a Popular Buddhist Saint_. Tempe, Arizona: Arizona S U Program for Southeast Asian Studies, 1995. This painted scene was to the altar's right (viewer's left), and was the culmination of various pictures showing the torments of the hells on various sinners, that started to the altar's left and ran around the three walls. From natalie at shin-ibs.edu Wed Jan 20 14:44:01 2010 From: natalie at shin-ibs.edu (Natalie Quli) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:44:01 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez (Franz Metcalf) Message-ID: <554133c71001201344w6b1d56f5nd530364e9b2f0c81@mail.gmail.com> Franz wrote: > I would be happy to compromise with you and go with "deceptive" or > "discontinuous." But can you? If your job as a Buddhologist is "just > to describe," I think you can't allow yourself the freedom to be > evaluative. Thus "deceptive" is out, though maybe "discontinuous" is > still in. > I would feel quite content to use the word "deceptive" if I could support that assertion with facts that proved that someone was intentionally trying to deceive others. Without such evidence, I would not use the word. I am totally content with pointing out discontinuities and ruptures by using historical references that show clear before and after pictures. I don't see any problem with that at all. > Richard wrote that he could "not > pass judgment on what is authentically Buddhist." You agreed. But I > believe a specialist scholar of contemporary Japanese Buddhism, with a > solid background in Buddhist history and Japanese New Religions *can* > assert that Aum Shinrikyo is in some ways continuous with Buddhism and > in some ways not. Are you seriously saying such a scholar cannot do > so? Not even remotely. Noting discontinuities is not the same as calling something "inauthentic" or a "distortion." All traditions include discontinuities, and indeed some have many more discontinuities than others. I have no problem with pointing out these discontinuities in traditions from Japan, Sri Lanka, or elsewhere. Kindness, Natalie ---------- PhD candidate, Graduate Theological Union Asst. Editor, Pacific World: Journal of the Institute of Buddhist Studies From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 14:50:44 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:50:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] How to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka? In-Reply-To: <947432.33599.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <947432.33599.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Please contact Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi: contactus at bodhimonastery.net . He is well-acquainted with Buddhist institutions in Sri Lanka. http://www.bodhimonastery.net/Monastery/Teachers/bhikkhubodhi.htm l Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick Traveling from Norway to Sri Lanka next year. Want to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka. That is all I know. Someone please guide me :-) Mvh./ Yours, Knut K.S.M. Heidelberg http://heidelberg.no _________________________________________________________ Alt i ett. F? Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 14:54:40 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:54:40 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] How to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka? References: <947432.33599.qm@web58704.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If that email doesn't work, go to this page of their new website, which I just found: http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/contact-us-topmenu-18.html JK Please contact Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi: contactus at bodhimonastery.net . He is well-acquainted with Buddhist institutions in Sri Lanka. http://www.bodhimonastery.net/Monastery/Teachers/bhikkhubodhi.htm l Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick Traveling from Norway to Sri Lanka next year. Want to become a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka. That is all I know. Someone please guide me :-) Mvh./ Yours, Knut K.S.M. Heidelberg http://heidelberg.no _________________________________________________________ Alt i ett. F? Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 15:16:51 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:16:51 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4EBB679FE56C44068B5DB1DF475D4C12@OPTIPLEX> > "remained a Jasagender"........... > Remained a what??? > Come on, Dan, if you are going to use totally unfamiliar terms then > kindly explain or translate them. > Joanna, it's German (Ja = yes, sagende = sayer; Ja-sagender = "Yes" sayer, i.e., an affirmer, not a nihilist), a Nietzschian term. Dan Don't crack up, but because you used the term in connecton with things Japanese, I thought it was some kind of esoteric Japanese term. Now that you explain, I could have deciphered it as German if I'd thought German! From alex at chagchen.org Wed Jan 20 15:21:51 2010 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:21:51 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling In-Reply-To: <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org> Accepting as I do that, in language, usage rules, (what else is language but a mass of interconnecting usages?) but not wanting to go so far down the road of linguistic relativism as to reach the dead end of "anything goes", I was interested to look into this. In my line of work I often use Google's hit-count to get a quick measure of how common particular word forms are, and I find 379 thousand for the "regular" spelling and 34 thousand for Nietzschian. Google, of course, finds mistaken spellings as easily as correct ones, but I submit that a ratio of about 11:1 raises Nietzschian above the "noise floor" of typos - it is, for better or worse, a common enough minority usage. The OED, by the way, does record Nietzschian as a "genuine" alternative spelling rather than as a mere mistake. All the best Alex Wilding > Op 20-1-2010 22:05, Dan Lusthaus schreef: > That's the trouble with democracy and the internet, the mob decides. The > man's name was Nietzsche, not Nietzschi or Nietzschie and he was proud > of it because it is of Polish origin. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 15:32:35 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:32:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 1:16 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence Op 20-1-2010 19:09, Richard P. Hayes schreef: > On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 08:08 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Socrates was put on trial for > corrupting the youth and for impiety, or dishonouring the gods, and > the way in which he did it was to encourage people to find their own > answers to important questions and to question those who provide > superficial answers. He taught people to think critically. He did not > give them a ready-made critique. > Come on, Richard. The Japanese sect was poisoning innocent people in order to blackmail Japanese society and the Buddha spent 40 years wandering and explaining everyone who would listen how to get free from desire and worldly troubles. After explaining this to your students you ask them to find out for themselves if the Japanese Aumcult acted according to the words of the Buddha. They must find this an impossible task! Erik JK Erik, right about the pedagogical method, maybe wrong about the students!Today's US students are capable of finding anything the teacher asks them to, made-up if necessary. Back to my point: Richard's intruding his idea of a "ready-made" critique into this discussion is resroting to a gratuitous straw man. From franz at mind2mind.net Wed Jan 20 15:42:12 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:42:12 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: the poignancy of Donald Lopez (Franz Metcalf) In-Reply-To: <554133c71001201344w6b1d56f5nd530364e9b2f0c81@mail.gmail.com> References: <554133c71001201344w6b1d56f5nd530364e9b2f0c81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E18033B-1B80-4A9D-A6EB-248E72FC9DE2@mind2mind.net> Natalie et al., > I would feel quite content to use the word "deceptive" if I could > support that assertion with facts that proved that someone was > intentionally trying to deceive others. Without such evidence, I > would not use the word. Yes, I agree. In fact, in my previous post, before editing, I agreed with you in using "deceptive," but then wrote that I shied away from it as I have no reliable access to the intentions of even myself, let alone Soyen Shaku. So we both agree to eschew "deceptive." Good. But better still is this: >> I believe a specialist scholar... *can* assert that Aum Shinrikyo >> is in some ways continuous with Buddhism and in some ways >> not. Are you seriously saying such a scholar cannot do >> so? > > Not even remotely. Noting discontinuities is not the same as > calling something "inauthentic" or a "distortion." All traditions > include discontinuities, and indeed some have many more > discontinuities than others. I have no problem with pointing > out these discontinuities in traditions from Japan, Sri Lanka, > or elsewhere. We are getting to the root of our (vanishing) difference. And I do mean "root," as I think the trouble here is semantic. Not that semantics aren't important, Richard et al., but here I have a sense the difference in our *practice* is negligible, but lies only in our (thus far) descriptions of our practice. When we point out a discontinuity between x and y, are we not saying, in effect, the discontinuity establishes that x is not y? Or, since we work in time, that y is no longer x? This seems unavoidable. But if that is so, we're forced either to take one of several positions: 1) The Buddhism of the Buddha (but when in his long career?) is Buddhism and anything discontinuous with it is not. 2) There is no privileged "Buddhism"; there are only many discontinuous streams of practice called "Buddhism" by their practitioners. But, if the latter (which I'm sure we both are inclined to say is more true), there may be other streams *not* called Buddhism what are less discontinuous with the core of the-discontinuous-stream-we-call- Buddhism than some streams actually called Buddhism. Ah well. But even taking the latter position, I believe scholarship is still value-laden and that we need to acknowledge this rather than deny it through a flight to a false position of objective neutrality. I'm not saying you're doing this--well, I am, but only insofar as we all are-- but I find this less than honest and less than helpful, which for me is the bottom line of scholarship. Sorry, I have written this in haste and must end it now. But I'm sending it anyway, though it's fuzzy, just for fun. All good wishes, Franz From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 15:56:47 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:56:47 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan><4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org> Message-ID: <00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> Thanks for the confirmations, Alex, For those of us not as tech-savvy, how does one do a google hit-count? Sounds useful. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 16:56:18 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:56:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1264031778.4212.4.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 15:32 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Richard's intruding his idea of a "ready-made" > critique into this discussion is resroting to a gratuitous straw > man. Is there any other kind of straw man? But I digress. I was not at all resroting, or even resorting, to a straw man, since I was not suggesting that others do things in a different way from how I do them. Rather, I was trying to show that in doing what I do, I do pretty much exactly what everyone else does, namely, to present information (about something such as Aum Shinrikyo) and to trust my students to be able to evaluate it appropriately. From stroble at hawaii.edu Wed Jan 20 17:01:35 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:01:35 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <11653_1264031838_4B57985D_11653_73_1_1264031778.4212.4.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <11653_1264031838_4B57985D_11653_73_1_1264031778.4212.4.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <201001201401.36072.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Wednesday 20 January 2010 13:56:18 Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 15:32 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > Richard's intruding his idea of a "ready-made" > > critique into this discussion is resroting to a gratuitous straw > > man. > > Is there any other kind of straw man? Could've been a straw ingrate? -- James Andy Stroble University of Hawai'i, Leeward Community College From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 17:13:28 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:13:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling In-Reply-To: <00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan> <11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX> <002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> <002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan> <1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org> <00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1264032808.4212.21.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 17:56 -0500, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > For those of us not as tech-savvy, how does one do a google hit-count? > Sounds useful. Usually when I do a Google search, one of the pieces of information is how many websites there are that have the term I have searched for. That figure is called a "hit count". You mentioned some time ago that you had disabled certain features of Google; I wonder whether the "hit count" is something that gets filtered out of your presentation when some things are disabled. When I did a search for "Nietzschian" (before playfully claiming that no one has ever used it), I saw a substantial number. But the very first line of my Google search for "Nietzschian" was the question "Did you mean Nietzschean?" It has been my experience that when I misspell a word, I get asked a question of this form. For example, when I did a search recently for "Dan Lusthaus," Dr Google asked me "Did you mean Erik Hoogcarspel?" Hit counts have to be used with caution. I once did a search for "George Bush Antichrist" and got something like seventy-nine million hits. I thought "Wow! I never realized that so many people identified George Bush as the Antichrist!" But then I learned that Google offers a figure based on the Boolean (which Dan would spell Boolian) OR function. So every website on the Internet that had either "George" or "Bush" or "Antichrist" was counted as one hit. Other search engines use other Boolean operators. As I recall, Ask uses a conjunction, so only if "George" and "Bush" and "Antichrist" all appeared on the same web page would it count as a hit. So before using a hit count as any kind of evidence, make sure you know how the search engine you are using counts hits. Then, no matter what the answer may be, discard the evidence anyway. Rihcard (did you mean Richard?) From alex at chagchen.org Wed Jan 20 19:02:43 2010 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:02:43 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling In-Reply-To: <00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan><4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org> <00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <001201ca9a3d$d1c5bc80$75513580$@org> Hi Dan, It's a blunt instrument, but an instrument. All you do is a standard Google search. Perhaps you hadn't noticed that on the right in the blueish bar above the results it says something like "Results 1-10 of about 29,300" (for "sparrrow"), as compared with "Results 1-10 of about 14,000,000" (for "sparrow"). How many of the 0.5% with three "r"s are wrongly spelt, and how many are correct for some obscure reason is a more tricky question. ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus > Sent: Thursday, 21 January 2010 9:57 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling > > Thanks for the confirmations, Alex, > > For those of us not as tech-savvy, how does one do a google hit-count? > Sounds useful. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 20 19:49:47 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:49:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1264031778.4212.4.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop><4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl><1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> <1264031778.4212.4.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <489320D8886B472F9BC9A563E2FAD404@OPTIPLEX> Recommend that you stop digressing. JK ============== On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 15:32 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Richard's intruding his idea of a "ready-made" > critique into this discussion is resroting to a gratuitous straw man. Is there any other kind of straw man? But I digress. I was not at all resroting, or even resorting, to a straw man, since I was not suggesting that others do things in a different way from how I do them. Rather, I was trying to show that in doing what I do, I do pretty much exactly what everyone else does, namely, to present information (about something such as Aum Shinrikyo) and to trust my students to be able to evaluate it appropriately. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 20 21:20:21 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:20:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <489320D8886B472F9BC9A563E2FAD404@OPTIPLEX> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop><4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl><1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B576476.2000305@xs4all.nl> <1264031778.4212.4.camel@rhayes-desktop> <489320D8886B472F9BC9A563E2FAD404@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <53E8842D-15ED-4B07-9134-9FEAF0380C8D@unm.edu> On Jan 20, 2010, at 7:49 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Recommend that you stop digressing. Why? I enjoy it, and it harms no one. But I digress. From glyall at netspace.net.au Wed Jan 20 18:23:08 2010 From: glyall at netspace.net.au (Graeme Lyall AM) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:23:08 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism as a millinarian movement Message-ID: <3A73E046DB4F4811B310981BB38C7CBD@graeme86c818d7> Andy wrote: Maybe it is my ignorance as a student of Buddhism, but I think the entire > eschatological tradition of apocalypse is foreign to Buddhism, or even if > we > have the Age of Mappo, the idea of a religious duty to bring about the > apocalypse is ultimately foreign to Buddhism. You may be interested to read the essay by Rory Mackenzie (International Christian College - Glasgow) originally published in the Mahachulalongkorn Journal of Buddhist Studies, "Millenarianism and a New Thai Buddhist Movement (White Dhammakaya Vs Black Dhammakaya)". Rory details several Thai apocalyptic movements. You may read it on http://www.buddhismaustralia.org/Black%20Vs%20White%20Dhammakaya.htm If this link does not work, please go to the Directory on the home page http://www.buddhismaustralia.org/ Be happy, Graeme Graeme Lyall AM President - Amitabha Buddhist Association of New South Wales Chairman - University Buddhist Education Foundation Co-Chairman - Standing-Committee on Publications, Publicity, Culture, Arts and Education - World Fellowship of Buddhists Buddhist Chaplain - NSW Department of Corrective Services Secretary - Australian Scottish Cultural & Information Centre (Scottish House) Founding Member - Australian & Chinese Cultural Council URL: http://www.buddhismaustralia.org From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 21 00:45:28 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 02:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan><4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org><00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> <001201ca9a3d$d1c5bc80$75513580$@org> Message-ID: <003a01ca9a6d$b406ae90$2101a8c0@Dan> Alex & Richard, Thanks for the explanation of hit-count. I thought perhaps Alex had wind of a more precise device or function than the number that appears during a regular google search. As Richard noted, that is pretty useless if you've entered more than one word since it will include anything that has any of the words, not the combo, and even on a page that contains all the words they may not occur anywhere within proximity of each other. So the only thing that count is useful for is how many webpages one would have to wade through before maybe finding the nugget one is looking for (google's algorithms are getting better, so the nugget may appear in the initial 30 or so hits). For single terms that hit count it more useful (the word should appear somewhere on the page, though that is not always the case -- on pages where the search term does appear one possibility is that the webpage designer hid that word, and likely others, in invisible text that google's webcrawler will nonetheless detect, all for the devious purpose of getting you to enter their site and to get listed high-up in the google hit hierarchy. As Alex noted, misspellings (particularly of celebrities' names) are quite common on the net, so one can get many hits even when mistyping or misspelling a celebrity search. That's actually a useful feature when searching for someone/something that one is not exactly sure how to spell. But to settle whether a word like Nietzschian is a word in legitimate usage, one would actually have to visit some of the sites listing it to see whether these are posted by reputable people or authoritative sources. In this case many thousands of them are. A panini-sandwich stickler might still insist that they are all wrong, this whole generation is going to hell in a hand-basket, and straw men are useful distractions when one's position is shaky, but since the ruling rubric was the Safire criterion of usage, the quantity as well as quality of the hits count as definitive evidence. That google frequently suggest an alternate spelling, even when one has properly entered a search term, is another helpful feature at times, but carries no weight. Just to remind us where this digression came from, I suggested that Brian Victoria and possibly Michael Jerryson, when measured by a nietzschean (or should the N be capitalized?) rubric -- viz. profound disappointment stemming from the failure of one's ideals to live up to one's expectations, to be exposed as false or hollow, leads to nihilism -- are commendable examples of cases where, instead of falling into despair or negativistic nabbobing, they became affirmative of the ideal in a new way; instead of nihilists, they became ja-sagenders ("Yes" Sayers). (or should Ja-sagender be capitalized? They capitalize everything [a.k.a. nouns] in German, don't they?). I find that admirable. Dan P.S. The spellchecker in Outlook Express recognizes neither Nietzschean nor Nietzchian, and suggests just plain ole Nietzsche as a replacement. Also, Richard mentioned that I had attempted to disable some google tracking functions, and others suggested additional ways to that. I'm unhappy to report that the google continues to track, despite my having disabled everything I could get my hands on, and that the only noticeable consequence is that YouTube won't work (google bought them up, and won't give the content unless they are allowed to read your harddrive and track your whereabouts while you watch the clips). Maybe if we hack them in Chinese they will leave our computers? From stroble at hawaii.edu Thu Jan 21 01:19:42 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:19:42 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism as a millinarian movement In-Reply-To: <3A73E046DB4F4811B310981BB38C7CBD@graeme86c818d7> References: <3A73E046DB4F4811B310981BB38C7CBD@graeme86c818d7> Message-ID: <201001202219.42391.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Wednesday 20 January 2010 15:23:08 Graeme Lyall AM wrote: > Andy wrote: > Maybe it is my ignorance as a student of Buddhism, but I think the entire > > > eschatological tradition of apocalypse is foreign to Buddhism, or even if > > we > > have the Age of Mappo, the idea of a religious duty to bring about the > > apocalypse is ultimately foreign to Buddhism. > > You may be interested to read the essay by Rory Mackenzie (International > Christian College - Glasgow) originally published in the Mahachulalongkorn > Journal of Buddhist Studies, "Millenarianism and a New Thai Buddhist > Movement (White Dhammakaya Vs Black Dhammakaya)". Rory details several Thai > apocalyptic movements. You may read it on > http://www.buddhismaustralia.org/Black%20Vs%20White%20Dhammakaya.htm If > this link does not work, please go to the Directory on the home page > http://www.buddhismaustralia.org/ Be happy, > Graeme > Graeme Lyall AM > President - Amitabha Buddhist Association of New South Wales > Chairman - University Buddhist Education Foundation > Co-Chairman - Standing-Committee on Publications, Publicity, Culture, Arts > and Education - World Fellowship of Buddhists Buddhist Chaplain - NSW > Department of Corrective Services > Secretary - Australian Scottish Cultural & Information Centre (Scottish > House) Founding Member - Australian & Chinese Cultural Council > URL: http://www.buddhismaustralia.org Wow, I am speechless! Thai Manichean Buddhism that bases itself on the Matrix movie, and even has an Avatar? Thanks for the link!! -- James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 21 01:58:01 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:58:01 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <007f01ca9a18$a40739b0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan><003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <007f01ca9a18$a40739b0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4B581719.2080203@xs4all.nl> Op 20-1-2010 22:36, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >> That's the trouble with democracy and the internet, the mob decides. The >> man's name was Nietzsche, not Nietzschi or Nietzschie and he was proud >> of it because it is of Polish origin. >> >> erik >> > Actually, Erik, that's freedom. Spell it any way you like, as long as you > can get others to do the same. That, by the way, is a > Nietzschian/Nietzschean dictum: "When one person says it, you have a theory; > when two say it, you have the beginnings of Truth." > > Dan > I think Nietzsche would strongly disagree. He never said anthing even remotely similar. Standing on his own feet he would rather say: 'If one person has a claim, it may be true, when two persons have the same, you have two Philisters with slave moral'. If misspelling his name would be a sign of creativity he would applaud, but we both know that in this case the misspelling is just a token of ignorance and indifference. erik erik From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 21 02:26:42 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 04:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan><003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl><007f01ca9a18$a40739b0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B581719.2080203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004d01ca9a7b$e6ba1490$2101a8c0@Dan> >> Nietzschian/Nietzschean dictum: "When one person says it, you have a >> theory; >> when two say it, you have the beginnings of Truth." >> >> Dan >> > I think Nietzsche would strongly disagree. He never said anthing even > remotely similar. In fact he did say (or write) that. He was being ironic. Dan From bshmr at aol.com Thu Jan 21 07:52:38 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:52:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling Message-ID: <1264085558.5233.39.camel@aims110> Pundits, and Nots, It took a few seconds of diversion to determine that not only are some unaware (of 'hit count'), some live in a dream and some misspeak. I haven't seen the like outside of my subjugation in graduate school, Faux Noose, and WSJ OpEd. ?Has Murdoch purchased interest in buddha-l? The deductive logic of google (as well as other search engines) appears to be other than entertainingly presented by pundits on buddha-l: 'sparrow' -- 14,000,000 hits 'hawk' -- 30,000,000 hits 'sparrow hawk' -- 842,000 hits [obviously not the 'union' of the above] 'sparrow +hawk' --389,000 hits [conjunctive, AND, shorthand] clusty.com which uses a limited web-search presents results organized by content as below: 'sparrow' -- 249 All results +birds -- 40 [sparrow AND birds] ... +hawk -- 5 [sparrow AND hawk] Richard Basham PS: Actual frequency counts (of unique searches) are available for some search-engines but let another dig that out of their mind or that "gem from the grains of sand in the desert known as 'The Internet'" @1995. From jackhat1 at aol.com Thu Jan 21 08:09:55 2010 From: jackhat1 at aol.com (jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:09:55 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence Message-ID: <591f.3e06f2a3.3889c843@aol.com> Interesting that the US military has been using rifles in Iraq and Afghanistan that are inscribed with Christian scripture:_http://blog.faithinpubliclife.org/2010/01/abc_nightline_news_broke_an.html_ (http://blog.faithinpubliclife.org/2010/01/abc_nightline_news_broke_an.html) jack From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 21 10:44:28 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:44:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Search engines [was: Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling] In-Reply-To: <003a01ca9a6d$b406ae90$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan><4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org><00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> <001201ca9a3d$d1c5bc80$75513580$@org> <003a01ca9a6d$b406ae90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <15EA54C6-A36C-4DBE-8B94-1E6C34053931@unm.edu> On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:45 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > For single terms that hit count it more useful (the word should appear > somewhere on the page, though that is not always the case -- on pages where > the search term does appear one possibility is that the webpage designer hid > that word, and likely others, in invisible text that google's webcrawler > will nonetheless detect, all for the devious purpose of getting you to enter > their site and to get listed high-up in the google hit hierarchy. That is correct. Books on webpage designing nowadays often have a chapter on how to increase one's Google hits. One way is, as Dan said, to put keywords in in the of an HTML document. There are numerous other tricks people use to make sure their web page rises to the top of a Google search. There are people who get paid big bucks to make sure that their customers' pages appear at or near the top of a Google search. On using Google effectively, I saw a book in the city library last year and checked it out (and even read the darn thing). It's called "Google for dummies" and is written following that maximally irritating for-dummies formula that all books in the series have, but does (like most books in that series) have excellent tips of how to use Google to make sophisticated searches that have the effect of filtering out unwanted hits. The book covers not only Google search engine but Ask, Altavista, Lycos, MSN, and Yahoo! It also has advice on how to use Hotbot, a sort of meta-engine that gives the user instant access to three different search engines from one page. So you can do a search from Hotbot using Lycos (a very good engine) and compare the Lycos results with the MSN or Yahoo! results with a quick click of a button. Each engine has its strengths and weaknesses, and each is good for a different sort of data. The best way to get a feel for them, of course is to use them all on a variety of search items and see what you get. Try tying "Buddhist discussion forum" (without the quotation marks) in these engines and see what you get: http://www.altavista.com/ http://www.ask.com/ http://clusty.com/ http://ixquick.com/ http://www.hotbot.com/ My favorite sexperiment was to search for "George W. Bush" "Antichrist" (WITH the quotation marks). My favorite result for that search, one which appeared on every search engine, is the following article about allegations that the Pope thinks George W. Bush may be the Antichrist. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880/ What does this have to do with Buddhism, you ask? Silly question. Richard From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Jan 21 10:02:56 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:02:56 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" In-Reply-To: <7acd6e351001201017m127f3601s25dc04e34fbdaf4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop> <7acd6e351001201017m127f3601s25dc04e34fbdaf4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B5888C0.2000706@cola.iges.org> Federico Andino wrote: > However, I would posit that you could make a movie out of the second and not > out of the first, so in samsaric terms, the cabal wins. > Buddhist Warfare: The Movie The Dark Side Of The Dharma Like You've Never Seen It Before I see Walpola Rahula being played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Actually I just want to hear Arnold say "I am Walpoooola Rahuuuula." John Malkovitch will play the ringleader of the sinister Buddhist Cabal, His Deceptiveness the Dalai Lama. Or maybe Alec Baldwin could be HHDL if it's going to be a comedy. If it's not a comedy then Baldwin can play D.T. Suzuki, if it is a comedy he plays HHDL and Jackie Chan plays Suzuki. I'm pretty sure Quentin Tarantino is already working on this, though. Curt > On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > >> On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 12:32 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: >> >> >>> I'm wondering how many people can tell the difference between the >>> following two statements. >>> >>> 1. Westerners have consistently misunderstood and misrepresented >>> >> Buddhism. >> >>> 2. A sinister cabal of Buddhist monastic intellectuals and their >>> brainwashed western academic stooges have engaged in a systematic >>> propaganda campaign to defraud the general public by hiding the Dark >>> Side of Buddhism from the world. >>> >> Well, both are false. The second one is more wordy than the first. In >> general, I think if one is going to say something false, it is better to >> be concise, so I prefer the first statement to the second. >> >> -- >> Richard P. Hayes >> University of New Mexico >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 21 11:06:50 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:06:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling In-Reply-To: <1264085558.5233.39.camel@aims110> References: <1264085558.5233.39.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <6F51083B-60BA-43FF-8A7F-52AD0B7F948A@unm.edu> On Jan 21, 2010, at 7:52 AM, R.B. Basham wrote: > It took a few seconds of diversion to determine that not only are some > unaware (of 'hit count'), some live in a dream and some misspeak. And some of us simply misremembered what we had read. I was doing an experiment very much like the one R.B. reported and discovered very quickly that the Google default operator is not the Boolean OR (union). Before I could report my results, R.B. reported his and saved me further agony. What I found was that searching for websites that mention both George W. Bush and the Antichrist are only 289,000 in number, whereas websites that mention only the Antichrist are some 7 million in number. Using no explicit Boolean operator in the search and simply typing "George W. Bush Antichrist" yields 353,000. I'm not sure how to explain that. Can you explain it R.B.? I also think there is a possibility that Google has changed its default Boolean operator during the past year. When I searched for "George W. Bush Antichrist" about two years ago, I really did get more than 7,000,000 hits. Now I get the much more manageable 353,000 reported above. (I plan to spend the day reading them all.) > clusty.com which uses a limited web-search presents results organized by > content I love that search facility. R.P. From franz at mind2mind.net Thu Jan 21 11:38:53 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:38:53 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Search engines [was: Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling] In-Reply-To: <15EA54C6-A36C-4DBE-8B94-1E6C34053931@unm.edu> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan><4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org><00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> <001201ca9a3d$d1c5bc80$75513580$@org> <003a01ca9a6d$b406ae90$2101a8c0@Dan> <15EA54C6-A36C-4DBE-8B94-1E6C34053931@unm.edu> Message-ID: <913C57FA-8A0D-47AC-B233-8CB9A4A64677@mind2mind.net> Richard, > My favorite sexperiment was to search for "George W. Bush" > "Antichrist" I realize your neural pathways are breaking down, but please try to shield the younger list members from this sort of return of the repressed. Franz From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 21 12:25:12 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:25:12 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Search engines [was: Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling] In-Reply-To: <913C57FA-8A0D-47AC-B233-8CB9A4A64677@mind2mind.net> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org><1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu><4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org><003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan><4B562A7D.4000407@cola.iges.org><004001ca99ab$d217c170$2101a8c0@Dan><11F1CF15A4CC4BCEBFDECDA03B20E4DC@OPTIPLEX><002001ca9a0b$8d06eec0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264018778.3235.7.camel@rhayes-desktop><002201ca9a0f$d3ce4ca0$2101a8c0@Dan><1264020342.3235.29.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003a01ca9a13$7deb01d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9a14$590a2160$2101a8c0@Dan><4B577650.50904@xs4all.nl> <001b01ca9a1e$f785fc10$e691f430$@org><00fc01ca9a23$d83d9d90$2101a8c0@Dan> <001201ca9a3d$d1c5bc80$75513580$@org> <003a01ca9a6d$b406ae90$2101a8c0@Dan> <15EA54C6-A36C-4DBE-8B94-1E6C34053931@unm.edu> <913C57FA-8A0D-47AC-B233-8CB9A4A64677@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <30EB2E2F-650B-48F6-9E08-2C1D99EAE168@unm.edu> On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > I realize your neural pathways are breaking down, but please try to > shield the younger list members from this sort of return of the > repressed. That dirty-minded Dr Freud made me do it. From bshmr at aol.com Thu Jan 21 14:10:04 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:10:04 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Search engines [was: Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1264108204.5233.105.camel@aims110> Thank you, Franz. On Thu, 2010-01-21 at 11:39 -0700, Richard Hayes wrote: ?>I'm not sure how to explain that. Can you explain it R.B.? > Well, only after wanton fantasizing then checking google (support): < http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?answer=136861 > {quote}.... # Search exactly as is (+) Google employs synonyms automatically, so that it finds pages that mention, for example, childcare for the query [ child care ] (with a space), or California history for the query [ ca history ]. But sometimes Google helps out a little too much and gives you a synonym when you don't really want it. By attaching a + immediately before a word (remember, don't add a space after the +), you are telling Google to match that word precisely as you typed it. Putting double quotes around a single word will do the same thing. # The OR operator Google's default behavior is to consider all the words in a search. If you want to specifically allow either one of several words, you can use the OR operator (note that you have to type 'OR' in ALL CAPS). For example, [ San Francisco Giants 2004 OR 2005 ] will give you results about either one of these years, whereas [ San Francisco Giants 2004 2005 ] (without the OR) will show pages that include both years on the same page. The symbol | can be substituted for OR. (The AND operator, by the way, is the default, so it is not needed.) ...{/quote} 1. The '+' is not the pure inverse of '-' so I was deluded and misspoke (miswrote) today on that. Note: I am not a 'zen buddhist' as some here are but a hinayana with un-skillful speech issues. 2. Default search logic is typical conjunctive (AND) or for all significant words (apparently subject to a 'dictionary' (token-ized??) unless specified otherwise). 3. Someone else can research the history of google's default search logic or volunteer their 'past life' recall. [The support page showed a copyright of 2009 sans an 'updated' tag.] Richard Basham From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 21 15:11:34 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:11:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Job announcement: assistant / lecturer in Buddhist Studies, University of Heidelberg Message-ID: <9D52F3E5D76246BBAB6EAD04A46E9EE7@OPTIPLEX> From: Dr. Birgit Kellner To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Job: assistant / lecturer in Buddhist Studies, University of Heidelberg Dear colleagues, find below a job advertisement for an assistant / lecturer in Buddhist Studies from the University of Heidelberg, Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe in a Global Context". To ensure wide circulation, I would like to ask you to kindly forward this advertisement to potential applicants. PDFs for departmental bulletin boards and the like are available for download: English: http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/fileadmin/Documents/Job_ Announcements/100121_Assistant-Lecturer_Kellner.pdf German: http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/fileadmin/Documents/Job_ Announcements/100121_akademMitarbeiter_Kellner.pdf With best wishes, and apologies for cross-posting, Birgit Kellner ----------------------------------------------- The Cluster of Excellence ?Asia and Europe in a Global Context?, University of Heidelberg (_www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de _) is seeking to employ an *Assistant / Lecturer* *(TV-L 13)* *in Buddhist Studies with an area focus on South Asia and Tibet* The position is initially filled for three years, with optional extension. The position should be filled by 1 October 2010 latest. It is part of the Cluster of Excellence ?Asia and Europe in a Global Context: Asymmetries of Cultural Flows,? funded by the German Federal Excellence Initiative. The salary corresponds to level TVL-13 of the German public service salary scale. The assistant / lecturer is expected to teach in the framework of bachelor and master programs (one course per semester), to support the professor for Buddhist Studies in research, teaching and supervision of students, and to assist in organizational and administrative affairs. The successful candidate has completed (preferably with PhD) a program in Buddhist Studies with an area focus in South Asia and Tibet and has excellent command of Sanskrit and Classical Tibetan. German is not required but German language classes are available. The candidate is capable to work in a team and has didactic qualifications. Computer literacy appropriate to the field is a prerequisite. The candidate is willing to engage with a transcultural research approach, and to actively participate in the conception of digital resources (especially terminological databases). The candidate is also willing to acquire the necessary basic technical competence for the latter, if needed. Please submit a CV with publication list, copies of university grade transcripts and a sketch of current and future research projects (2-3 pages) preferably by email (exclusively as one PDF document, no further attachments please!) to _kellner at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de _ or per mail to the address given below. In the latter case please only send photocopies; originals will not be returned. In cases of equal qualification, aptitude and expertise of the applicants, female applicants will be given preferential treatment for those salary groups and careers in which females are underrepresented, unless there are preponderant reasons to give preference to another applicant. Physically challenged candidates with similar qualifications will be given special consideration. Application deadline is 1 March 2010; interviews will be scheduled for the end of March or beginning of April. Dr. Birgit Kellner Cluster ?Asia and Europe? Buddhist Studies Karl Jaspers Centre for Advanced Transcultural Studies Geb?ude 4400 Vo?str. 2 69115 Heidelberg From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 21 19:15:22 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 19:15:22 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg Message-ID: I'm wondering what the status of these translations is today. Would anyone knowledgeable kindly comment? Is this material now among the Vinaya texts available on accesstoinsight, or are these texts different from what's online? Thanks, Joanna ------------------ From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 21 20:01:04 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:01:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] "Buddhist propaganda" In-Reply-To: <4B5888C0.2000706@cola.iges.org> References: <4B573E20.5090204@cola.iges.org> <1264011370.2383.22.camel@rhayes-desktop><7acd6e351001201017m127f3601s25dc04e34fbdaf4f@mail.gmail.com> <4B5888C0.2000706@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: No---Walpola Rahula should be played by Woody Allen. Schwarznegger is too zaftig. JK ======================= Federico Andino wrote: > However, I would posit that you could make a movie out of the second > and not out of the first, so in samsaric terms, the cabal wins. > Buddhist Warfare: The Movie The Dark Side Of The Dharma Like You've Never Seen It Before I see Walpola Rahula being played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Actually I just want to hear Arnold say "I am Walpoooola Rahuuuula." John Malkovitch will play the ringleader of the sinister Buddhist Cabal, His Deceptiveness the Dalai Lama. Or maybe Alec Baldwin could be HHDL if it's going to be a comedy. If it's not a comedy then Baldwin can play D.T. Suzuki, if it is a comedy he plays HHDL and Jackie Chan plays Suzuki. I'm pretty sure Quentin Tarantino is already working on this, though. Curt > From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 21 20:05:53 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:05:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence and spelling In-Reply-To: <6F51083B-60BA-43FF-8A7F-52AD0B7F948A@unm.edu> References: <1264085558.5233.39.camel@aims110> <6F51083B-60BA-43FF-8A7F-52AD0B7F948A@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5D4B429EAB3E42D1BA8F96FEB691F140@OPTIPLEX> . Using no explicit Boolean operator in the search and simply typing "George W. Bush Antichrist" yields 353,000. I'm not sure how to explain that. Can you explain it R.B.? --------------------- I'm not R.B. but, Yes of course--George W. Bush was no good at numbers. JK _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 21 21:46:03 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:46:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2010, at 7:15 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I'm wondering what the status of these translations is today. > Would anyone knowledgeable kindly comment? > Is this material now among the Vinaya texts available on > accesstoinsight, or are these texts different from what's online? Not very much of the vinaya is on Access to Insight. A few summaries and excerpts are there, but the none of the historical parts that provide the context for the rules and the evolution of the early monastic sangha. The complete vinaya has been translated several times. The best translation is the one currently available through the Pali Text Society in six volumes by I.B. Horner from 1938 to 1966. Richard From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 21 22:15:02 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 22:15:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Not very much of the vinaya is on Access to Insight. A few summaries and excerpts are there, but the none of the historical parts that provide the context for the rules and the evolution of the early monastic sangha. The complete vinaya has been translated several times. The best translation is the one currently available through the Pali Text Society in six volumes by I.B. Horner from 1938 to 1966. Richard =============== Too bad--I can't afford to buy the 6 vols., and no library around here has them. But have you ever seen the Oldenberg translations? It would be worthwhile to see the topics of the books he covered, or whatever they come as. From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu Jan 21 23:22:46 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:22:46 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in Tibetan Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told that the same is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of JKirkpatrick > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 1:15 PM > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg > > > > > Not very much of the vinaya is on Access to Insight. A few > summaries and excerpts are there, but the none of the historical > parts that provide the context for the rules and the evolution of > the early monastic sangha. The complete vinaya has been > translated several times. The best translation is the one > currently available through the Pali Text Society in six volumes > by I.B. Horner from 1938 to 1966. > > Richard > =============== > Too bad--I can't afford to buy the 6 vols., and no library around > here has them. > But have you ever seen the Oldenberg translations? It would be > worthwhile to see the topics of the books he covered, or whatever > they come as. > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From shian at kmspks.org Thu Jan 21 23:28:31 2010 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:28:31 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <66447ac948e56df8a517f29624ffab86f1f72e4b@localhost> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> <66447ac948e56df8a517f29624ffab86f1f72e4b@localhost> Message-ID: <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B8AB6F30F@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> Any idea what are the 'official' reasons why the Vinaya should not be read by laity? -----Original Message----- From: Weng-Fai Wong [mailto:wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg] Sent: Friday, 22 January, 2010 2:23 PM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in Tibetan Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told that the same is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. W.F. Wong From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 22 06:23:56 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 06:23:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <8DDEE654-7B8E-4987-88A4-58C99BD7B177@unm.edu> On Jan 21, 2010, at 10:15 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > But have you ever seen the Oldenberg translations? It would be > worthwhile to see the topics of the books he covered, or whatever > they come as. Yes, I have seen them. They are out of date but better than nothing. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 22 06:29:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 06:29:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in Tibetan > Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told that the same > is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. I had an incident in my classroom about this at McGill about fifteen years ago. A Chinese nun was horrified that I had students reading sections of the vinaya. She said this would disqualify students from being ordained as monks or nuns later. I asked some Therav?da monks about this, and they said there is no such prohibition. One Therav?da monk told me that lay people are actually encouraged to study the vinaya. As far as I know, there is nothing in the vinaya itself about this. If there is a taboo against lay people being informed about the vinaya, it may be more a "house rule" than a rule coming down from the Buddha. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri Jan 22 07:30:20 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:30:20 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Richard Hayes wrote: > As far as I know, there is nothing in the vinaya itself about this. The Mula-sarvastivadin Vinaya (T23 #1442 page 672): ??????????? ???????????? ??????????????? My poor translation: "Question: Can the laity listen (learn) the matters of monkhood? Answer: (They can) learn the two pitaka, namely the Abhidharma and Sutra. Vinaya applies to the behaviour of the Sangha. The laity cannot hear (learn)." Oops... I just read the Vinaya... W.F. Wong From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 22 08:43:21 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:43:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Fri, 2010-01-22 at 22:30 +0800, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > The Mula-sarvastivadin Vinaya (T23 #1442 page 672): > > ??????????? > ???????????? > ??????????????? > > My poor translation: > > "Question: Can the laity listen (learn) the matters of monkhood? > Answer: (They can) learn the two pitaka, namely the Abhidharma and Sutra. > Vinaya applies to the behaviour of the Sangha. The laity cannot hear (learn)." We had this discussion about ten years ago, and I?m thinking it was determined then that there is no counterpart to that passage in the Pali canon. It would be interesting to know that for sure. I am curious about context. Is the passage cited above a rule? If so, which type? What are the consequences of violating it? I have heard that the consequence for the layperson is that he/she is forbidden from ordination as a result of having heard the vinaya. But I am wondering whether this rule is connected specifically from the pratimoksha ceremony. Lay people are not allowed to attend that formal recitation of the vinaya, but it does not follow that they are not allowed to study the vinaya in other situations. Is this rule recursive? That is, is it also against the Mula-sarvastivadin vinaya to discuss the Mula-sarvastivadin vinaya on buddha-l? Perhaps even mentioning that the vinaya exists is forbidden. Perhaps even allowing oneself to wonder whether there is a vinaya, or ever has been, is forbidden. Perhaps all curiosity of every kind on any topic whatsoever is forbidden. What if it turns out that only digression is allowed? -- Richard P. Hayes University of New Mexico From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Fri Jan 22 09:45:17 2010 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:45:17 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> , <1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <010B704E8DA0D94D9F5C81B08045B3DB07FF1AF46F@EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> Diane Finnegan (aka Ven. Damcho) recently defended her dissertation at the University of Wisconsin on representations of spiritual friendship in the Vinaya. I have not seen the final product and do not know what is included, but a couple of years ago she told me that she was preparing a translation of the entire Vinaya (Sarvastivada?) based on the Tibetan and Sanskrit. I believe she had already translated about 1200 pages at that point. The dissertation was not focussed on translation, but I would imagine she intends to publish the translations she has done. Jim Blumenthal From stroble at hawaii.edu Fri Jan 22 10:33:46 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:33:46 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <26409_1264175072_4B59C7DF_26409_807_8_1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <26409_1264175072_4B59C7DF_26409_807_8_1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <201001220733.46358.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Friday 22 January 2010 05:43:21 Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Fri, 2010-01-22 at 22:30 +0800, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > > The Mula-sarvastivadin Vinaya (T23 #1442 page 672): > > > > ??????????? > > ???????????? > > ??????????????? > > Is this rule recursive? That is, is it also against the > Mula-sarvastivadin vinaya to discuss the Mula-sarvastivadin vinaya on > buddha-l? Perhaps even mentioning that the vinaya exists is forbidden. > Perhaps even allowing oneself to wonder whether there is a vinaya, or > ever has been, is forbidden. Perhaps all curiosity of every kind on any > topic whatsoever is forbidden. What if it turns out that only digression > is allowed? I think we have already seen what this would be like. It is buddha-l! ("The first rule of vinaya is you don't talk about vinaya.") -- James Andy Stroble University of Hawai'i, Leeward Community College From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 22 10:10:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:10:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in > Tibetan Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told > that the same is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. I had an incident in my classroom about this at McGill about fifteen years ago. A Chinese nun was horrified that I had students reading sections of the vinaya. She said this would disqualify students from being ordained as monks or nuns later. I asked some Therav?da monks about this, and they said there is no such prohibition. One Therav?da monk told me that lay people are actually encouraged to study the vinaya. As far as I know, there is nothing in the vinaya itself about this. If there is a taboo against lay people being informed about the vinaya, it may be more a "house rule" than a rule coming down from the Buddha. Richard Hayes ============================= Luck of the web. I had always "heard" that it was once taboo for Roman Catholic laity to read the Bible, but apparently this is false, according to 'All Experts--Catholicism' website: "The first Catholic bible in English was the Douay-Rheims version created in the late 16th century. The current standard Bible, the New American Bible, was commissioned by Pope Pius XII, a 20th century Pope, 60 years ago. It was never taboo for laity to read the Bible. It simply was not common. There is a historical reason for this: for most of church history, most people, including many priests, could not read. Now that literacy is the norm, the Church actively encourages people to read the Bible." http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/Reading-Bible.htm This reply to a question was written by a believer, Cody, who says that he converted from being a southern Baptist and is studying in a Jesuit institution. Could "the folk" have invented this falsehood (if indeed it is false) to save themselves from arduous scripture reading, assuming that they were literate, of course? JK _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 22 11:19:12 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:19:12 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1264184352.4990.3.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Fri, 2010-01-22 at 10:10 -0700, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Could "the folk" have invented this falsehood (if indeed it is > false) to save themselves from arduous scripture reading, > assuming that they were literate, of course? As I recall (with my faulty memory), the injunction against reading the vinaya came up at a time when informed laity were accusing monks of failing to abide by the vinaya. Seeing that an informed layperson is a dangerous thing, the monks said "Here, read some sutras instead. We'll take care of the vinaya ourselves." But perhaps that explanation is a pious Quaker myth. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 22 11:28:47 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:28:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express Message-ID: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> How to attract people to Buddhism. Give them booze and sing to them. http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/21/japan.hip.monks.buddhism/ Can releasing toxins into the subway system be far behind? Curious Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 22 14:37:29 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:37:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> This is currently making the Buddhist rounds on the net, because some PR is being sought (current cycle started in Dec of last year, but wasn't picked up by the major news outlets until mid January. But this has been going on for awhile: This has been going on for awhile. BBC report from 2007 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7148053.stm and here are reports from 2008. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fg20080222nc.html Read the blurb on VOWZ. http://www.krayo.com/buddhist-monks-hit-the-bars/ Hey, everyone can test out the various search engines to see if we can find additional and earlier online mentions. The monk quoted is right about one thing. Buddhism in Japan is in crisis -- but these attempts, which have been going on for a few years now, aren't helping. Dan ----- Original Message ----- > How to attract people to Buddhism. Give them booze and sing to them. > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/21/japan.hip.monks.buddhism/ > > Can releasing toxins into the subway system be far behind? From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 22 16:07:34 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:07:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: <006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> <006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: The monk quoted is right about one thing. Buddhism in Japan is in crisis -- but these attempts, which have been going on for a few years now, aren't helping. Dan ----------------- What wonders me is, what is happening to the incredible art objects in those temples that closed? Have they entered the legal or illegal antique markets by now??? Anybody have some clues? One is tempted to envisage the Mappo as a huge, world-wide flea market where ancient objects from world cultures are up for sale to the highest bidders, while everybody else is starving or dying of plagues. jk From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 22 17:00:30 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:00:30 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan> > What wonders me is, what is happening to the incredible art > objects in those temples that closed? Have they entered the legal > or illegal antique markets by now??? > Anybody have some clues? > One is tempted to envisage the Mappo as a huge, world-wide flea > market where ancient objects from world cultures are up for sale > to the highest bidders, while everybody else is starving or dying > of plagues. Hard to say for all, but you are not far off. Many temples in Japan are actually family/clan owned, or belonging to a specific core community. Sometimes when temples close, esp. valuable things are moved into storage on someone's property, sometimes things are sold off (to other temples if they can find one willing; or art collectors, or some willing museum curator; or whomever). Different communities handle it differently. The auction is on. Get your bid in. http://tinyurl.com/ybpknvf Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 22 17:07:46 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:07:46 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Comic (macabre?) relief References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00a401ca9bc0$17fe0530$2101a8c0@Dan> After some of the heavy topics recently, perhaps some comic (or macabre) relief is called for. Here, Joanna, some temple treasures not yet on ebay. http://www.weirdasianews.com/2009/09/16/demons-lurk-halls-japans-buddhist-temples/ Enjoy. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 22 17:28:57 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:28:57 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> <00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00b901ca9bc3$0d9ab090$2101a8c0@Dan> More on the background of the new experiments in relevance among Japanese monks. Here's a piece from 2006, at that a cafe within a Tokyo temple. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20061101f2.html It should be noted that the cafe idea is not entirely a novel development. Temples, esp, prominent ones have done similar things with the lay community for many centuries in Japan, sometimes under the rubric of specific festivities or celebrations, sometimes 'private catering,' etc. The modern versions just adopt a more updated business model. Restaurants attached to Temples are common throughout E Asia (China, Taiwan & Korea they are vegetarian and usually quite tasty -- in Japan Temple restaurants, or Sect-associated restaurants may be vegetarian, usually each with its own specialty, such specializing in varieties of tofu dishes; and these can be located away from the temples themselvesl they are usually VERY expensive.) Dan From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 22 18:12:47 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:12:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: <00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> <00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX> > What wonders me is, what is happening to the incredible art objects in > those temples that closed? Have they entered the legal or illegal > antique markets by now??? > Anybody have some clues? > One is tempted to envisage the Mappo as a huge, world-wide flea market > where ancient objects from world cultures are up for sale to the > highest bidders, while everybody else is starving or dying of plagues. Hard to say for all, but you are not far off. Many temples in Japan are actually family/clan owned, or belonging to a specific core community. Sometimes when temples close, esp. valuable things are moved into storage on someone's property, sometimes things are sold off (to other temples if they can find one willing; or art collectors, or some willing museum curator; or whomever). Different communities handle it differently. The auction is on. Get your bid in. http://tinyurl.com/ybpknvf Dan =============== Ah yes....I should have remembered this long tradition of family/clan temples. Wow--but how ancient? ...... the "details" give no information as to provenance (where this bell came from or was cast) or age. JK From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 22 19:12:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:12:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Comic (macabre?) relief In-Reply-To: <00a401ca9bc0$17fe0530$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> <00a401ca9bc0$17fe0530$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <3A37309DBB21446996B99E43885D8317@OPTIPLEX> After some of the heavy topics recently, perhaps some comic (or macabre) relief is called for. Here, Joanna, some temple treasures not yet on ebay. http://www.weirdasianews.com/2009/09/16/demons-lurk-halls-japans- buddhist-temples/ Enjoy. Dan --------------------- This website seems to be cultivating a mystery tour of the decrepit arts. Check out these other links: Footprints in Wood Tell Story of Buddhist Monk's Prayers Crocodiles calmed by Buddhist Sutras Japan Holds Annual Pig Rodeo Marriage-Hunting Bra Heats Up Courtship in Japan Back to the article: The starter 3-faced demon mask reminds me that some fully tattooed yakuza arranged for their skins to be flayed after death, having borrowed money on the contract before their demise, and the tat art preserved for sale if need be. I suspect that this "demon head" was cobbled together from flayed human corpse heads. If the skin is properly treated, it can be made flexible enough to stretch it into ghastly shapes with eye socket relocation, false fangs supplied. Sort of like what one can do with Photoshop. One of the better books on Japanese tattoo art--Fellman, Sandi & D.M. Thomas. _The Japanese Tattoo._ NY: Abbeville Press, 1986, says: "...irezumi [down on their luck] sell their bodies to institutions staffed by doctors specially trained in decortication." They remove the skin (after the guy dies, of course) and preserve it such that it can be sold to private collectors or to a museum. The author says that, "I was given a special tour of the largest collection, one hundred specimens, lodged at Tokyo University's Pathology Department...Occasionally these items come up for auction, and one example of a half-body tattoo a few years ago went for fifty thousand dollars." (Ibid:18) Such could be the fate of antique monk mummies from closed temples, one clothed specimen of which can be seen on the link Dan supplied. These monks mummified their bodies progressively by taking various herbs and poisons so that when they eventually died from the cumulative effects, their bodies had already been mummified. The ultimate in ascetic practice, while maintaining the illusion of everlasting piety? And now, if ya'll will forgive me, I'll add that I just came across a short story by A. Conan Doyle in an old, broken-down bound volume of _Harpers Monthly Magazine_, 1892, that I keep as a memento of the grandparental era. It's about an Oxford Orientalist student (a la Edward Said) who has an Egyptian mummy in his lodgings, acquired at an auction of rarities. The title is "Lot 249." I leave it to your imaginations to figure out what the story is about. Best, JK From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri Jan 22 20:35:42 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:35:42 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: <8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan> <00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan> <8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <53366B90F0674A99A2C841D737DE3529@comp.nus.edu.sg> Temples are big businesses... the bigger the temple, the bigger the enterprise. Key question to me is: so what do they do with the money earned? W.F. Wong From buddhisti at aol.com Fri Jan 22 15:16:29 2010 From: buddhisti at aol.com (buddhisti at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:16:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> <1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <8CC69C7AE28C318-5D58-CC20@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> All three baskets (sutra, vinaya, abhidharma) are supposed to be divulged and learn by everyone. How can we read the tripitaka without stumbling on them? The misunderstanding about listening to (or reading) the vinaya, and listening to the formal vinaya recitation (including the confession) twice monthly, came from the rules of formal recitation itself (the latter) which insisted that people who have not received the precepts be removed from the audience. During the Liturgy of Recitation of Bodhisattva Vows for laypeople, there's this portion: Question: Why has the Sangha gathered? Answer: To recite the Bodhisattva precepts. Question: Have those who have not taken the precepts and those who are not pure left this assembly? Answer: In this assembly, there is no one who has not taken the precepts, and no one who is not pure. (If there are, they should be asked to leave and the monk in charge should say: "Those who have not received the precepts and those who are not pure have left.") Reading, or listening to, only the vinaya, does not commit any infraction. In fact, many Chinese masters, including Hsuan Hua of the City of Ten Thousands Buddhas and Yen P'ei, encouraged laypeople to learn the precepts. BTW, the Vinayas are online; anyone can have access: http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupid?key=olbp34638 Chinese and Vietnamese translations are all over the net too. Minh Quang -----Original Message----- From: Richard P. Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Fri, Jan 22, 2010 10:43 am Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg On Fri, 2010-01-22 at 22:30 +0800, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > The Mula-sarvastivadin Vinaya (T23 #1442 page 672): ??????????? ???????????? ??????????????? My poor translation: "Question: Can the laity listen (learn) the matters of monkhood? Answer: (They can) learn the two pitaka, namely the Abhidharma and Sutra. Vinaya applies to the behaviour of the Sangha. The laity cannot hear learn)." We had this discussion about ten years ago, and I?m thinking it was etermined then that there is no counterpart to that passage in the Pali anon. It would be interesting to know that for sure. I am curious about context. Is the passage cited above a rule? If so, hich type? What are the consequences of violating it? I have heard that he consequence for the layperson is that he/she is forbidden from rdination as a result of having heard the vinaya. But I am wondering hether this rule is connected specifically from the pratimoksha eremony. Lay people are not allowed to attend that formal recitation of he vinaya, but it does not follow that they are not allowed to study he vinaya in other situations. Is this rule recursive? That is, is it also against the ula-sarvastivadin vinaya to discuss the Mula-sarvastivadin vinaya on uddha-l? Perhaps even mentioning that the vinaya exists is forbidden. erhaps even allowing oneself to wonder whether there is a vinaya, or ver has been, is forbidden. Perhaps all curiosity of every kind on any opic whatsoever is forbidden. What if it turns out that only digression s allowed? - ichard P. Hayes niversity of New Mexico ______________________________________________ uddha-l mailing list uddha-l at mailman.swcp.com ttp://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 22 11:38:22 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:38:22 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <4B59F09E.6080104@cola.iges.org> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > How to attract people to Buddhism. Give them booze and sing to them. > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/21/japan.hip.monks.buddhism/ > > Can releasing toxins into the subway system be far behind? > > Curious Richard > The thing I found most interesting was that their attendance only doubled. That's it?! I'm pretty sure that a cost benefit analysis would conclude that you'd be better off with half as many people who are sober and doing proper Buddhist chanting, than you are with twice as many people who are drunk and singing japanese pop music. Probably the middle way is to stick to the usual practice schedule and then everyone goes out bar-hopping afterwards. This makes for much less wear and tear on the Temple furnishings as well. Curt From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 23 02:51:22 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:51:22 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan><00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan> <8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <007a01ca9c11$9f4c8650$2101a8c0@Dan> > Ah yes....I should have remembered this long tradition of > family/clan temples. > JK Nonetheless, the common figure bantied about in recent years is that 1000 temples a year are closing in Japan. That's significant. Buddhist bars will not make Buddhism relevant to modern life. The problems are deep, but mostly stem from the fact that Buddhism in Japan for too long has basically been a business. For instance, family temples mean your kids, or at least one of your sons, is expected to inherit the family business, which the kids often do grudgingly; they are trained in the basic rituals, sent off to priest-boot camp when the right age, and then begin to run the business -- now that the "business" is not sufficiently lucrative all bets are off. Parents will not be able to offer reasonable arguments to keep the kids in the business... Moreover, even on the larger institutional level, while westerners fantasize about Buddhism as the eschewing of materialism [and Republicans], Japanese Buddhism -- much like the Catholic Church of yore -- lives off of superstitions it feeds the people, mostly concerning death and afterlife (Japanese Buddhism, it is often observed, is basically a funeral business, and with the economic downturn since the early 1990s, people are looking for cheaper funerals). Japanese are still very superstitious about many things (although they like to think of themselves as above all that), but the superstitions that feed the funeral cult are fading. Funerals have been the major money maker for Buddhist priests and temples (along with an occasional exorcism). The Buddhist instititions have become (or have been) merely symbiotic parts of the Japanese cultural economy, a part of it that is going obsolete. They don't cure duhkha, they make their living off of the anxieties duhkha produces. So drink up. Dan From jmp at peavler.org Sat Jan 23 09:09:24 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:09:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religious violence, Buddhist violence In-Reply-To: <1264022046.3727.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4B548366.2000805@cola.iges.org> <1A385C87-6B04-4DF6-B53C-B0E5F3C518EC@unm.edu> <4B54ED8C.4000805@cola.iges.org><009501ca98a2$b6d1d810$2101a8c0@Dan> <4B551726.7090601@cola.iges.org> <003001ca98d7$fa60f810$2101a8c0@Dan> <1263924043.4915.12.camel@rhayes-desktop> <4B56C456.700@xs4all.nl> <1264010994.2383.18.camel@rhayes-desktop> <7784_1264018463_4B57641F_7784_28_1_1264018363.3235.2.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1264022046.3727.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <483175BC-5FDF-4FB5-9151-B880B3B59922@peavler.org> Thank you for this encouraging post. I thought I was going crazy. On Jan 20, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 13:12 -0700, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > The neural pathways between my brain and my fingers has been breaking > down with age. I am amazed these days at what I type. I am even more > amazed that when I proofread my messages before sending them out, I tend > to see what I meant to write rather than what is actually on the screen. > One of the (dubious) benefits of getting older is that the subtle > processes that have been going on throughout life (such as seeing what I > want to see and disregarding the rest) become much more glaring. Some of > my flaws become so patent that even I can see them, which annoys the > hell out of me. I much prefer being blind to my own shortcomings, > because seeing my own distracts me so much from the important business > of seeing everyone else's. > > Richard Dr. James M. Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.vivanewmexico.com/blog "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; when they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion to exist, the ordinary man would do will to suspend his judgement."Bertrand Russell. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 23 10:51:08 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:51:08 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: <007a01ca9c11$9f4c8650$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan><00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan><8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX> <007a01ca9c11$9f4c8650$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <899D887B68B1499E8BB2DC1D25FF22B3@OPTIPLEX> ......... Funerals have been the major money maker for Buddhist priests and temples (along with an occasional exorcism). The Buddhist instititions have become (or have been) merely symbiotic parts of the Japanese cultural economy, a part of it that is going obsolete. They don't cure duhkha, they make their living off of the anxieties duhkha produces. So drink up. Dan _---------------------- Ok, so if they've traditionally made most of their bread off the funeral biz and didn't do much for duhkha, then who did? Pure Land? Sokka gakkai? or are they all going Christian like most of the Koreans did? JK From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 11:02:01 2010 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:02:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Eugene Burnouf In-Reply-To: <483175BC-5FDF-4FB5-9151-B880B3B59922@peavler.org> Message-ID: <383260.35511.qm@web45415.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi, ? I was thinking of getting Burnouf's Introduction to the History of ?Indian Buddhism, transl. Donald Lopez & Katia Buffetrille. ? However,? was wondering if it's worth it. Is the scholarship still relevant? Or are there better books available? ? Thanks, Rahula ? ? From franz at mind2mind.net Sat Jan 23 11:34:35 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:34:35 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: <899D887B68B1499E8BB2DC1D25FF22B3@OPTIPLEX> References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan><00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan><8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX> <007a01ca9c11$9f4c8650$2101a8c0@Dan> <899D887B68B1499E8BB2DC1D25FF22B3@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Joanna, > Ok, so if they've traditionally made most of their bread off the > funeral biz and didn't do much for duhkha, then who did? Pure > Land? Sokka gakkai? or are they all going Christian like most of > the Koreans did? Few Japanese are converting to Christianity (as compared with Koreans). It's just not a very religious culture, right now. We need to remember how exceptional among developed countries the US is in active religious practice. Interestingly, your question has generated a 13th century answer. It has been generally asserted that in the early Kamakura period the established Buddhist schools (Kegon, Tendai, Shingon, and several smaller schools) "didn't do much for dukkha. So, the great suffering of the people in those times of civil war gave rise to the new Kamakura Buddhisms: Pure Land, Nichiren, and Zen. *These* forms, it was argued, put the means of salvation--even in those times of mappo (the degeneration of the dharma)--into the hands of the people and so these three new forms of Buddhism quickly became the three largest school in Japan, and have remained so. Recently, more careful scholarship has undermined this explanation. And, as we are now discussing, the last hundred years of Japanese materialism and Buddhist collaboration with militarism has reduced Buddhism to a kind of funerary religion. I am being simplistic, but this is the trend. Obviously Japanese Buddhists, themselves, are clutching at straws (perhaps in fancy drinks) to try to reverse it. Franz Metcalf From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 23 12:39:01 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:39:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eugene Burnouf In-Reply-To: <383260.35511.qm@web45415.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <483175BC-5FDF-4FB5-9151-B880B3B59922@peavler.org> <383260.35511.qm@web45415.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D60FD4500864EECB3451A049D3114AF@OPTIPLEX> Hi, ? I was thinking of getting Burnouf's Introduction to the History of ?Indian Buddhism, transl. Donald Lopez & Katia Buffetrille. ? However,? was wondering if it's worth it. Is the scholarship still relevant? Or are there better books available? ? Thanks, Rahula ? _________________________________________? Alternatively...... Have you looked at Johannes Bronkhorst's _Buddhist Teaching in India_, originally pub. in German, 2000; Eng. trans. published 2009 by Wisdom Pubs. JK From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 23 12:45:40 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:45:40 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express In-Reply-To: References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan><00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan><8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX><007a01ca9c11$9f4c8650$2101a8c0@Dan><899D887B68B1499E8BB2DC1D25FF22B3@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <6B8263567C914F8CB9BCB3AC4BF8B7F1@OPTIPLEX> Interestingly, your question has generated a 13th century answer. It has been generally asserted that in the early Kamakura period the established Buddhist schools (Kegon, Tendai, Shingon, and several smaller schools) "didn't do much for dukkha. So, the great suffering of the people in those times of civil war gave rise to the new Kamakura Buddhisms: Pure Land, Nichiren, and Zen. *These* forms, it was argued, put the means of salvation--even in those times of mappo (the degeneration of the dharma)--into the hands of the people and so these three new forms of Buddhism quickly became the three largest school in Japan, and have remained so. Recently, more careful scholarship has undermined this explanation. And, as we are now discussing, the last hundred years of Japanese materialism and Buddhist collaboration with militarism has reduced Buddhism to a kind of funerary religion. I am being simplistic, but this is the trend. Obviously Japanese Buddhists, themselves, are clutching at straws (perhaps in fancy drinks) to try to reverse it. Franz Metcalf _________________________ Hi Frantz, Hmmmm--in that case, where are Pure Land (or Jodoshinshu) and Nichiren today? I thought I had noticed that the practice of Buddhism in the USA today is Jodoshinshu, for the most part. Correct, or not? How does whatever popular and for mostly lay folks Japanese Buddhism fare in the USA these days, as compared to the sad decline in Japan? Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 23 13:08:09 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:08:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <8CC69C7AE28C318-5D58-CC20@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX><1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> <8CC69C7AE28C318-5D58-CC20@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <498C4D9BA6244635A83437C5A3026070@OPTIPLEX> Reading, or listening to, only the vinaya, does not commit any infraction. In fact, many Chinese masters, including Hsuan Hua of the City of Ten Thousands Buddhas and Yen P'ei, encouraged laypeople to learn the precepts. BTW, the Vinayas are online; anyone can have access: http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupid?key=olb p34638 Chinese and Vietnamese translations are all over the net too. Minh Quang ________________________________ Thanks for posting this info. I bookmarked the link. JK From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 19:03:34 2010 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Eugene Burnouf In-Reply-To: <6D60FD4500864EECB3451A049D3114AF@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <536659.53259.qm@web45412.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi, ? Ya, I bought that some time ago through Amazon, and recently Amazon alert me on this work by Burnouf. ? Thanks, Rahula --- On Sun, 1/24/10, JKirkpatrick wrote: From: JKirkpatrick Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Eugene Burnouf To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 3:39 AM Alternatively...... Have you looked at Johannes Bronkhorst's _Buddhist Teaching in India_, originally pub. in German, 2000; Eng. trans. published 2009 by Wisdom Pubs. JK _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 19:40:05 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:40:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka Message-ID: <164298.86794.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This came out over a month ago.? Had anyone on Buddha-L seen this?? Apologies for not knowing how to convert long url's into tiny ones! ? Katherine Masis ==================================== ? Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka Rome, Italy, Dec 11, 2009 / 12:59 pm (CNA).- More than 1,000 Buddhist extremists armed with clubs, swords and stones ferociously attacked a Catholic church in the town of Crooswatta, Sri Lanka on December 6, destroying the altar, statues and pews. L'Osservatore Romano reported that Father Jude Denzil Lakshman, pastor of Our Lady of the Mystical Rose, said "I still can hear their shouts in my ears, `Cut him to pieces, kill him'." The attack took place after the 7 p.m., Sunday Mass, leaving several parishioners wounded. "It is obvious that the attack was well-planned and that the mob waited for us to come out after Mass," Father Lakshman said. One parishioner told the Archdiocese of Colombo that as the congregation was leaving the evening Mass, they saw a mob coming towards them. The parishioner added that the mob "set fire to Fr. Lakshman's car and then someone attempted to strike him with a sword," but a young man heroically pulled him away. The extremists "then damaged all other motor bikes, ordinary cycles of the poor people including a three-wheeler. Some persons armed with swords and batons went on beating the people. There are six Catholics in the hospital with cuts and injuries." The archdiocese noted that Air Force personnel were deployed immediately to bring the mob under control. Guards are still in the area to guarantee the safety of the faithful, which include 293 families. As of now, police have arrested 11 suspects from Buddhist extremist groups that have attacked the church in the past. ? http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/buddhist_extremists_brutally_attack_catholic_church_in_sri_lanka/ ? From cfynn at gmx.net Sat Jan 23 21:24:27 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:24:27 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: <164298.86794.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <164298.86794.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B5BCB7B.3050007@gmx.net> Katherine Masis wrote: > This came out over a month ago. Had anyone on Buddha-L seen this? > Apologies for not knowing how to convert long url's into tiny ones! > Katherine Masis > ==================================== While this is appalling, of course the Catholic News Agency article fails to reflect on the 16th C. Portuguese Catholic "extremists" (followers of Jesus and St. Francis) who took over the island in the name of their religion - Showing equal intolerance for Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam alike. They however didn't hesitate to play these groups off against each other in aid of their own cause. On all sides tensions seem to have existed ever since. This particular manifestation of violent intolerance seems to have something to do with a several years old dispute over the construction of a new Catholic Church nearby a Buddhist Monastery ~ The Sri Lankan Supreme Court recently ruled that the construction of this church could be completed. At root I suspect this dispute probably as has much to do with property, ethnic rivalry and power as it has to do with religion. - Chris From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 23 21:55:44 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:55:44 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: <164298.86794.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <164298.86794.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B5BD2D0.1050701@cola.iges.org> Q: How can we be sure that this was a group of "Buddhist" exremists? A: Nobody died. If only all religious extremists were this "extreme". Compare this to the handiwork of the Christian extremists in Nigeria: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/01/22/nigeria-protect-survivors-fully-investigate-massacre-reports Curt Katherine Masis wrote: > This came out over a month ago. Had anyone on Buddha-L seen this? Apologies for not knowing how to convert long url's into tiny ones! > > Katherine Masis > ==================================== > > Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka > > Rome, Italy, Dec 11, 2009 / 12:59 pm (CNA).- More than 1,000 Buddhist extremists > armed with clubs, swords and stones ferociously attacked a Catholic church in > the town of Crooswatta, Sri Lanka on December 6, destroying the altar, statues > and pews. > > L'Osservatore Romano reported that Father Jude Denzil Lakshman, pastor of Our > Lady of the Mystical Rose, said "I still can hear their shouts in my ears, `Cut > him to pieces, kill him'." > > The attack took place after the 7 p.m., Sunday Mass, leaving several > parishioners wounded. "It is obvious that the attack was well-planned and that > the mob waited for us to come out after Mass," Father Lakshman said. > > One parishioner told the Archdiocese of Colombo that as the congregation was > leaving the evening Mass, they saw a mob coming towards them. > > The parishioner added that the mob "set fire to Fr. Lakshman's car and then > someone attempted to strike him with a sword," but a young man heroically pulled > him away. > > The extremists "then damaged all other motor bikes, ordinary cycles of the poor > people including a three-wheeler. Some persons armed with swords and batons went > on beating the people. There are six Catholics in the hospital with cuts and > injuries." > > The archdiocese noted that Air Force personnel were deployed immediately to > bring the mob under control. Guards are still in the area to guarantee the > safety of the faithful, which include 293 families. > > As of now, police have arrested 11 suspects from Buddhist extremist groups that > have attacked the church in the past. > > http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/buddhist_extremists_brutally_attack_catholic_church_in_sri_lanka/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 23 22:50:42 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:50:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka Message-ID: > Q: How can we be sure that this was a group of "Buddhist" exremists? > > A: Nobody died. > > If only all religious extremists were this "extreme". Compare this to > the handiwork of the Christian extremists in Nigeria: Q: How can we be sure the Q&A above was written by written by a Buddhist dualist? A: Because it oversimplifies a complex situation, shows the author's obsession with finding negative things about Christianity while minimizing the unskillful behavior of follows of Buddhism. Q: But does that prove the author was a Buddhist? A: No, it only proves that the author has the mentality of a child and has either never practiced Buddhism or has got nothing out of her practice. From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 23 23:36:18 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:36:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rohr and Finley on stages of spiritual development Message-ID: For the past couple of days I have been attending a conference on mysticism by Richard Rohr and James Finley. Something that I find interesting is that 1150 people, most but by no means all of them Roman Catholics, are attending this conference and that they have come from all over the United States. Finley is a gifted teacher and reflects well on his monastic training as a Cistercian monk (under his spiritual director, Thomas Merton) and his Zen training and his training as a psychotherapist. Rohr is a Franciscan brother whose criticisms of the Catholic Church for the past 500 years and of American culture have earned him the contempt of many bishops and the admiration of many others. It is mildly encouraging to me to see so many Catholic priests, nuns and lay people listening to a man widely regarded as a dangerous heretic. This weekend Rohr has been talking about levels of spiritual development (a theme that many teachers of many traditions have written about). His claim is that the Roman Catholic church and American evangelicals (the so-called religious right) been stuck at stages 1 and 2 of his 9-stage schema. (A fairly good summary of his schema is in the following Christian blog: http://tracesword.blogspot.com/2009/05/levels-of-spiritual-development-richard.html While I find much of the language of Christian mysticism quite alien (in that I never describe my own experiences or convictions in God-talk or Christ-talk or find myself having to translate such talk into my own idiosyncratic Buddhist frame of reference), I also find the contemplative practices that the God-talk points to (as a finger at the moon?) quite familiar. And I find myself agreeing with Rohr's claim that American religion is, for the most part, stuck at a very low level of development. I would have to include almost all the Buddhism I have seen in America as fitting into Rohr's level-one or level-two. There are, of course, individuals who are exceptions, but I would have to say that whether one is talking about the Buddhism of Asian Americans or the Buddhism of highly educated affluent whites, one is generally talking about spirituality at a very low level. Perhaps the same can be said of Buddhism (and every other religion) everywhere in the world these days. As a whole, I'd say it is not looking very good for the future of the human race. Websites for Rohr and Finley: http://contemplativeway.org/ It is good to take a rest from buddha-l from time to time. It's my turn to do so again. See you all eventually, perhaps. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 23 23:49:15 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 01:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The upaya express References: <1264184927.4990.10.camel@rhayes-desktop><006c01ca9bab$1988d070$2101a8c0@Dan><00a101ca9bbf$144893c0$2101a8c0@Dan><8182552662924305864CD871DFB9AB86@OPTIPLEX><007a01ca9c11$9f4c8650$2101a8c0@Dan> <899D887B68B1499E8BB2DC1D25FF22B3@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <003001ca9cc1$5973e870$2101a8c0@Dan> > Ok, so if they've traditionally made most of their bread off the > funeral biz and didn't do much for duhkha, then who did? Pure > Land? Sokka gakkai? or are they all going Christian like most of > the Koreans did? > > JK Complicated. Without doing a somewhat detailed survey, difficult to answer adequately, but the short(er) answer is something like: These are all included in what I was describing as Japanese Buddhism. Zen has always been a minority tradition in Japan -- though we in the west often treat it metonymically as "Japanese Buddhism." Largest Japanese sect is Pure Land (Jodo). Shingon, Tendai, Nichiren all have far more adherents (though "membership" can often be merely a nominal family association that one is unaware of until a familiy member dies and one has to figure out which Buddhist group the familiy traditionally belongs to, in order to arrange the funeral). Don't have the actual current figures on hand (google, etc., should be able to provide them, but Zen affiliates are a fraction of the others. Nichiren and Soka gakkai (before the latter splintered off from the former) were considerable, with a political party that accounted for a major chunk of the Japanese parliament. Despite numerous scandals, Soka Gakkai forges on. Their rhetoric is about world peace, etc.; the scandals involve arms dealings, illegal art trade, etc. One of the recent Jodo Shinshu responses to the "crisis" of Japanese Buddhism is to invent even more elaborate pre-death funerary rituals (borrowing in odd and creative ways from the Western Death-and-dying movements), all with a price tag, all with pastoral counseling in mind. When I suggested a few years ago to some of the leaders that if they wanted to do something for Japanese culture, instead of these gentrified rituals, they tackle the problem of suicide (which has been astronomical in Japan, and has taken on multiple social forms), they just stared at me speechless. Not in their vocabulary. (and not lucrative?) As Franz noted, Japanese are not converting to Christianity outright in any significant numbers, but Christian influence has been infiltrating Japanese culture in many ways. The Japanese seriously underestimate the long range impact. Just as in the west "Buddhism" carries an air of the exotic, the different, the fresh air that revitalizes stale spirituality, in Japan Buddhism is the old fashioned, old time, obsolete, superstitious, familiar, worn out, untrustworthy tradition, and Christianity is exotic, new, associated with the West and prosperity. Japanese marry in churches, in tuxedos and western-style wedding gowns in elaborately overly expensive affairs, western style. Japanese who come to the West typically convert, since they usually have little to no commitment to their family's traditional denominational affiliation (if they even know what it is). Born Shinto, Wed Christian, Die Buddhist (only, the last is starting to fade). Dan From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 23 22:17:41 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:17:41 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: H-ASIA REVIEW Falcone on Huber 'India Re-Mapped: The Tibetan Geographies of Buddhist India' Message-ID: <758AFA74A82C4DFDBD553699898F2726@OPTIPLEX> Jessica Falcone, author of this review, posted last year on the Lama Zopa Maitreya Project theme park proposed for Kushinagar, U.P. jk ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Toni Huber. The Holy Land Reborn: Pilgrimage & the Tibetan Reinvention of Buddhist India. Chicago University of Chicago Press, 2008. 464 pp. $45.00 (cloth), ISBN 978-0-226-35648-8. X-posted, of interest to some of us. JK ===================== Reviewed by Jessica Falcone, Warren Wilson College Published on H-Asia (January, 2010) Commissioned by Sumit Guha India Re-Mapped: The Tibetan Geographies of Buddhist India Toni Huber's most recent scholarly contribution to Buddhist studies, especially the sub-genres of Tibetan pilgrimage and religious geography, makes a methodical foray into the heretofore underexplored contours of the Tibetan geographies of Buddhist India. Emerging from Huber's recognition that many Tibetan sacred spaces have explicit or implied links to India, his goal for the book project is ambitious: to trace the changing perspectives, borders, and maps of the Indian holy land from the Tibetan perspective from the age of ancient Tibetan empires to the present day. According to Huber, _The Holy Land Reborn_ begins the work of filling in some of the major holes in Buddhist scholarship that gloss over the centrality of India in both Tibetan thought and Tibetan pilgrimage practice. Less interested in musings upon sacred spaces that can be found in some scholarly Tibetan monastic discourses, Huber focuses on the history of Tibet's relationship with India as a real and imagined pilgrimage place. This investigation leads Huber and his readers over some familiar terrain--to Bodh Gaya, Sarnath and Kushinagar--but also to some rather surprising places, such as Punjab, Bengal, and Assam. Huber's diligently crafted history of the "shifting terrain" (p. 16) of Tibetan geographies of India will be of great interest and value to scholars of anthropology, religion, and South Asian and Tibetan area studies, in general, as well as to academics of Tibetan Buddhist pilgrimage more specifically. _The Holy Land Reborn_ has been divided into three parts, which are loosely chronological. Part 1, "Locating and Dislocating the Land of the Buddha," introduces the reader to the histories of Tibetan views of and contacts with the India from ancient times through the Middle Ages, as well as situates his themes in terms of the modern scholastic work on Buddhist pilgrimage in India. Part 2, "Reinventing the Holy Land in India," primarily through the utilization of a series of case studies that elaborate a case for creative reinvention of India by Tibetans, Huber picks up the thread of Indo-Tibetan contacts, travel, and re-imaginations from roughly the thirteenth to the twentieth centuries. In part 3, "Modern Rebirths of the Holy Land," Huber discusses the shifting relationship of Tibetans and India in twentieth century, both before and after the Chinese aggression that led to the establishment of a long-term exile community in India. In this review, I will explicate some of Huber's contributions by discussing parts 1-3 sequentially before concluding with some observations about some of the minor shortcomings of this remarkable book. In part I, Huber succeeds in both showing the shifting nature of Tibetan projections onto India, and demonstrating that such changing geographies of interpretation are not necessarily a particularly atypical way of reading the pilgrimage maps of Buddhist India. Huber begins his work by arguing that some existing work on the Tibetan views of sacred India assume a fixity that is far from accurate. In an early chapter, in a welcome gesture of academic reflexivity, Huber compares the fluidity of the sacred Indias of Tibet through the ages with the fluid geographies of even religious and historical studies of the phenomena. In chapter 1, Huber argues that the "reinvention of Buddhist India" is not a singularly Tibetan occupation; aside from similar machinations of Buddhists from elsewhere, others such as Orientalists, art historians, and Buddhologists have their own history of trying to fix Buddhist geography in India by using texts, art, and travel commentaries. Huber reviews the various schemes of Buddhist sacred space in Indian _sutra_s and historical texts, moving from two sites of the Buddha to four sites to ten to thirty-two and back down to eight; he writes that it is impossible to know which, if any, or all, of these sets of sacred places were established pilgrimage routes set in stone. Despite this lack of clarity, Huber notes, not only did nineteenth-century scholars fetishize "eight chief places" and begin to imprecisely link these places explicitly with ancient pilgrimage practices, but as a result twentieth-century Buddhists began to engage in pilgrimage to these eight sites as if reviving an ancient tradition. As proof that the scholastic focus on "eight" pilgrimage places was overstated, Huber goes on to show that once Tibetans did begin visiting India for pilgrimage, their travel accounts placed no premium at all upon visiting the so-called eight places of the Buddha. I found Huber's discussion of Tibetan romanticism regarding India to be quite significant, especially as it provides a counterpoint to the recent works that instead emphasize the Western exoticization of Tibetans past and present. Thus, Huber's work extends a complicating counterpoint to the literature that emphasizes only the Western Orientalism of the "East" without noting that exoticization also exists in trans-Asian perspectives as well. [About time! JK] Huber notes that despite periods of infrequent Indo-Tibetan travel, Tibetans evinced a strong, romantic attachment to the notion of a superior, robust Buddhist land in India. It is not just that Tibetans lacked up-to-date information about India in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, but rather that the ways in which the bits and pieces of information were used, interpreted, and sometimes suppressed, were generally done with the intention of promoting idealized versions of a Buddhist holy land. Huber argues compellingly that in Tibet, India was so romanticized that eleventh- and twelfth-century travelers brought back somewhat exaggerated reports of the state of Buddhism there, and that even much later, long after Buddhism had been pushed to the margins of what is now India, certain Tibetan reports of Buddhism's decline were ignored, rebuffed, and resisted by the Tibetan Buddhist monastic establishment altogether. Huber's work serves to illustrate the political and religious agency of Tibetans who defined and created an India according to their own perspectives and values. _The Holy Land Reborn_ also explores how Tibetan Vajrayana (Tantric) Buddhism extends and reinterprets _pitha_ sites in order to form another significant layer of sacred Indian topographies. Huber explains that the _pitha_s are mapped onto the meditative body, and also onto the known geographies of Jambudvipa (the south continent in Buddhist cosmology), of which India is thought to encompass the major part. His most important contribution here is the astute observation that the _pitha_ terrain is eminently fluid over time; Huber gives an excellent history of one of these sites, Devikota, and shows that over the course of some seven centuries the site has been identified in a total of eight places (half in India and half in Tibet). In part 2, Huber presents a handful of case studies of Tibetans in India in the premodern years that reinforce his theme of fluid sacred cartographies. Since the actual sites of the Buddha's life were lost for several centuries, even the major sites of the Buddha's life were open to Tibetan reinvention and rediscovery, as Huber illustrates through his explication of the replication of Buddhist sites in Assam, far from the Gangetic plains. The book details the history of about three hundred years, from the late sixteenth or early seventeenth century to the twentieth century, during which many Tibetan pilgrims journeyed to Assam fully believing that they were visiting the actual historical sites from the Buddha's life, such as Kushinagar, Bodh Gaya, et cetera. Toni Huber's new book is especially fascinating when he describes the unlikely ground claimed by Tibetan Buddhists for their own, such as sites in Punjab that arguably had nothing to do with Buddhism before; the eighteenth-century identification of sites in Punjab as significant hagiographic places now associated with Padhmasambhava. Equally significant, the appropriation of sites went both ways, as Huber also mentioned a Tibetan Buddhist sacred site in the Himalayas where Sikhs arrived to find Tibetans worshipping "Guru Rinpoche," and then intuited that they had found a lost site of Guru Nanak. In part 3, Huber begins his exposition on modern Tibetan pilgrimage in India with a discussion of how the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama of the early twentieth century made sense of the modern Buddhist revivalist movement, as well as the discoveries of British archaeology. His exposition of twentieth-century Tibetan pilgrimage emphasizes the place of the Mahabodhi Society in revitalizing international pilgrimage to India, and shows how Tibetans interacted with each of the following: the burgeoning Buddhist community in India; the modern rail system; and, the growth of the pilgrimage guidebook industry. Huber re-engages with the work of Amdo Gendun Chophel, whose _Guide to India_ he had already translated and published (2000), and makes persuasive arguments both about the effects of the Mahabodhi literature on the writer, and the ways in which Chophel's Guide served to frame the modern Tibetan pilgrimage scene in India. According to Huber, the cause of Buddhist modernism, which Chophel communicated to Tibetans through his work, has been since carried forward by none other than the fourteenth Dalai Lama. _The Holy Land Reborn_ traces compelling reasons why the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan exiles have continued to celebrate Buddhist pilgrimage places in India in ways that support their political and cultural status as welcome guests in India, despite certain tensions between Indians and Tibetan exiles. There can be no doubt that the book is excellent--it is a readable book for specialists and non-specialists alike, and will be required reading for generations of Tibetologists, Indologists, and Buddhologists. The text leaves just a few things to be desired, however. For example, I wish that Huber had given his readers more than one paragraph of concluding thoughts at the end of this latest book; as with his previous book, _The Cult of Pure Crystal Mountain_ (1999), the lack of a strong, well-developed conclusion here is lamentable--an opportunity lost. In addition, there are two other nagging concerns that I must also discuss further in this review: Huber's intermittent historical hubris, as well as his somewhat underdeveloped ethnographic writing. As a reader, I was concerned whether Huber's own assumptions always receive the same degree of due diligence that he handily extends to the work of others. Occasionally, I found his assertions uncompelling and wished for more evidence to back up his scenarios. For instance, in chapter 11, Huber glosses the complexity of Tibetan in exile relationships with India and Indians with surprisingly little regard for the "shifting terrain" of Indo-Tibetan dynamics in contemporary India; he writes, "The vast majority of the 'Indian' space beyond these tiny, borrowed settlement islands is regarded as foreign, un-interesting, or even potentially hostile by most Tibetan refugees" (p. 347). He also observes that, "After a half a century of living there, India is not a place that Tibetan exiles affectionately embrace" (p. 352). Huber utilizes just a few select quotes from Keila Diehl's _Echoes from Dharamsala: Music in the Life of a Tibetan Refugee Community_ (2002) in support of these rather strong claims, while ignoring the multivalent and complicated relationships that many Tibetans, including Diehl's own primary informants, the Yak Band, have with India, Indians, Indian music, et cetera. Despite the fact that Huber's broad strokes regarding contemporary Tibetan relations seem particularly jarring, his work on _The Holy Land Reborn_ is a largely careful, if wide lens, parsing of the available sources. The exhaustive historical coverage of the book almost makes it tempting to overlook the rather thin ethnographic work that frames some of the modern material on Tibetan pilgrimage in India. Indeed, Huber does not even methodically tell his readers when, where, and for how long he did on-the-ground fieldwork. Instead, he simply mentions his visits to such-and-such a place in passing as the sites arise in the narrative, and proceeds to discuss these visits with unfortunate brevity. As a result, his writing about these trips has the feel of anecdotal formality, as opposed to the depth of a sustained participant-observation, which perhaps suited Huber's needs in this ambitious volume, although it leaves the reader hungry for more. When Huber makes an appearance as a fieldworker in his text, he seems to flit from one site to another, rarely giving the reader a deeper sense of what is happening beneath the surface of any given place. For example, the few pages delineating his recent visits to the Assamese "Tibetan Kushinagar" of Hajo had the feel of a brief travelogue, a pilgrimage of his own to get a look at what he had been reading so much about in the stacks of the distant libraries. With each section that addresses contemporary sites Huber visited, he leaves open just as many questions as he has answered; other anthropologists, one can only hope, will someday come forward to address some of these open questions with in-depth, long-term anthropological fieldwork. In my opinion, Huber's previous work in _The Cult of Pure Crystal Mountain_ (1999), deemed "ethnohistorical" (p. 8), managed the task of balancing the methodologies of history and anthropology with more success. To Huber's credit he does not argue that his book is specifically an _ethnographic_ contribution to the anthropology of contemporary Buddhism; instead, he touts it as a solid history that should serve to set the record straight on a topic that has previously gotten short shrift in scholarly sources. While Huber undeniably accomplished that goal with this major work, this reader cannot help but feel that, taken as a whole, the extant ethnographic material highlights a road not taken, rather than substantively contributing to the claims of the author. As Huber's new book claims to be an invaluable work of substantial breadth on Tibetan Buddhist India, and insofar as it delivers upon that promise, it is a highly laudable scholastic achievement. The painstaking research that undergirds _The Holy Land Reborn_, has, for the first time, really demonstrated the fluidity and breadth of the Tibetan geographies of sacred India over the past millennium and beyond. It is a careful and extensive history of Tibetan perspectives on Buddhist India, and will serve as an excellent resource for many scholars in the future. Citation: Jessica Falcone. Review of Huber, Toni, _The Holy Land Reborn: Pilgrimage & the Tibetan Reinvention of Buddhist India_. H-Asia, H-Net Reviews. January, 2010. URL: http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=25320 This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 23 22:34:20 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:34:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist extremists brutally attack Catholic church in Sri Lanka In-Reply-To: <4B5BD2D0.1050701@cola.iges.org> References: <164298.86794.qm@web112611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B5BD2D0.1050701@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <60DE93C1F4424B70B64238877EFCE927@OPTIPLEX> From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 24 03:50:44 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 11:50:44 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rohr and Finley on stages of spiritual development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5C2604.2010002@xs4all.nl> Op 24-1-2010 7:36, Richard Hayes schreef: > This weekend Rohr has been talking about levels of spiritual development (a theme that many teachers of many traditions have written about). His claim is that the Roman Catholic church and American evangelicals (the so-called religious right) been stuck at stages 1 and 2 of his 9-stage schema. (A fairly good summary of his schema is in the following Christian blog: > > http://tracesword.blogspot.com/2009/05/levels-of-spiritual-development-richard.html > > Here's a quote form the blog: /Level 7,8 and 9 folks understand faith as "living with mystery in darkness, joyfully". These people have a high tolerance for ambiguity. Ultimately, movement from one level to another requires failure at each, and a passage through darkness to the next level. /I'm not very thrilled by this kind of rankings, because they are all strongly biassed. Human all too human. And they are all very familiar. Having seen one you know them all. I've no desire to live in mystery or darkness, how can one be enlightened in that case. Oh I see, that's the mystery :-\ . Hegel called this the night where all cows are grey. The same mystics however would not hesitate to put the Pope on a high level (he's a theologian) and Einstein (how could he be absent?), allthough both are not very keen on vagueness. I would say to me most republicans live in darkness and their minds are a mystery to me. So I would give them a level 6, no questions asked. erik From shian at kmspks.org Mon Jan 25 18:02:20 2010 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:02:20 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <0a272c02838ee86931c4f8d648c09771cf89bb67@localhost> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> <0a272c02838ee86931c4f8d648c09771cf89bb67@localhost> Message-ID: <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B8AB6F31C@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> If laity cannot study the Vinaya, i wonder how they ever decide to be monastics! Committing to what they are uncertain of for life sounds like anti-Kalama spirit :-[ On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in Tibetan > Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told that the same > is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. I had an incident in my classroom about this at McGill about fifteen years ago. A Chinese nun was horrified that I had students reading sections of the vinaya. She said this would disqualify students from being ordained as monks or nuns later. I asked some Therav?da monks about this, and they said there is no such prohibition. One Therav?da monk told me that lay people are actually encouraged to study the vinaya. As far as I know, there is nothing in the vinaya itself about this. If there is a taboo against lay people being informed about the vinaya, it may be more a "house rule" than a rule coming down from the Buddha. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From JampaTsedroen at gmx.de Tue Jan 26 02:01:52 2010 From: JampaTsedroen at gmx.de (Jampa Tsedroen) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:01:52 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B8AB6F31C@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> <0a272c02838ee86931c4f8d648c09771cf89bb67@localhost> <0E75C555C1C380419C1B0A8017CBF3233B8AB6F31C@KMSXCHSVR01.temple.kmspks.org> Message-ID: <4B5EAF80.1040106@gmx.de> Well, as it is the Tibetan tradition, you study the Vinaya after you have been ordained, and by that time you may find out that some mistakes already occured which you need to purify now. The major things to observe you learn in preparation for ordination. But this is not referred to as Vinaya studies, but preparation for ordination. By the way: as far as I found out no such rule in the Pali Vinaya exists. There is only a principle that when the Patimokkha is to be recited, all qualified bhikkhus inside the sima (boundary) should be sitting within forearm's length of one another, and no lay person should be within forearm's length of the monks. However, lay people can even be sitting in the recitation hall beyond the forearm's boundary while the monks recite the Patimokkha. It is said that in Sri Lanka there are lay people who study the entire Tipitaka and some are very knowledgeable about the Vinaya. I heard that in Sri Lanka at some universities lay women even teach monks Vinaya. According to a dharmafriend it seems that at some point in Indian Buddhist history, perhaps when the monks were not observing numbers of minor rules, they did not want the laity to know about them from fear the lay people would criticize them for neglecting these rules. In the Tibetan tradition for lay people it is not allowed to be inside the hall, when bhikshus confess their misdeeds or when they recite the pratimoksha sutra after having purified. It would cause doubts whether the legal act (karma) were valid then. Tibetan masters use to say that it would be unwholesome if lay people study the Vinaya in order to search for mistakes in the discipline of monks and to criticize them (nuns are also not allowed to criticize them). Some Tibetan masters allow Western lay people to read parts of the Vinaya by themselves and to ask them questions, if the motivation is that they want to find out whether they can keep it. However, some Tibetan nuns have studied up to 17-18 years the geshe and khenpo curricula, but they were not allowed to study the whole Vinaya and thus still have not obtained the geshe and khenpo titles. This is, because they have not studied the same full curriculum, i.e. the full Vinaya, which they could only do after being fully ordained. On top they cannot criticize the monks for not granting them the respective titles, what they would not do anyway, because they have a lot of respect for them. Bhikshuni Jampa Tsedroen On 26.01.2010 02:02 [DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an wrote: > If laity cannot study the Vinaya, i wonder how they ever decide to be monastics! Committing to what they are uncertain of for life sounds like anti-Kalama spirit :-[ > > On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > >> By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in Tibetan >> Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told that the same >> is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. > > I had an incident in my classroom about this at McGill about fifteen years ago. A Chinese nun was horrified that I had students reading sections of the vinaya. She said this would disqualify students from being ordained as monks or nuns later. I asked some Therav?da monks about this, and they said there is no such prohibition. One Therav?da monk told me that lay people are actually encouraged to study the vinaya. As far as I know, there is nothing in the vinaya itself about this. If there is a taboo against lay people being informed about the vinaya, it may be more a "house rule" than a rule coming down from the Buddha. > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > rhayes at unm.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From cfynn at gmx.net Sat Jan 23 03:42:23 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:42:23 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4B5AD28F.7050201@gmx.net> Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > By the way, in Chinese Buddhism (not sure if this is the case in Tibetan > Buddhism), lay people are NOT to read the Vinaya. I was told that the same > is true in Theravada Buddhism - till the "red hair devils" came along. > > W.F. Wong In the Tibetan (Mulasarvastivada vinaya) tradition the non-ordained may not study the vinaya. One of the reasons given is that this might cause people to lose faith in the Sangha ~ one of the Three Jewels ~ and thus break their vows of refuge. I think there may even be some prohibition which forbids ordaining people with blond hair ~ if they knew about red heads back in the good old days they surely would have banned them too. :-) - C From bankei at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 05:11:21 2010 From: bankei at gmail.com (Bankei) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:11:21 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: <010B704E8DA0D94D9F5C81B08045B3DB07FF1AF46F@EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <0295A88380E942DDBAA8125633B3C0FC@OPTIPLEX> <1264175001.2123.10.camel@rhayes-desktop> <010B704E8DA0D94D9F5C81B08045B3DB07FF1AF46F@EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: 2010/1/23 Blumenthal, James > Diane Finnegan (aka Ven. Damcho) recently defended her dissertation at the > University of Wisconsin on representations of spiritual friendship in the > Vinaya. I have not seen the final product and do not know what is included, > but a couple of years ago she told me that she was preparing a translation > of the entire Vinaya (Sarvastivada?) based on the Tibetan and Sanskrit. I > believe she had already translated about 1200 pages at that point. The > dissertation was not focussed on translation, but I would imagine she > intends to publish the translations she has done. > > Jim Blumenthal > _______________________________________________ > > Hi James The dissertation is "For the Sake of Women, Too": Ethics and Gender in the Narratives of the M?lasarv?stiv?da Vinaya" available online at http://nunscommunity.net/thesis.html From nelsonj at usfca.edu Mon Jan 25 21:21:22 2010 From: nelsonj at usfca.edu (John K Nelson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:21:22 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic: Buddhism in contemporary Japan) Message-ID: Dear Buddha-l subscribers, A few updates and corrections are necessary concerning contemporary Buddhism in Japan, the subject of a post by D. Lusthaus on 1.24.10. 1. " Zen has always been a minority tradition in Japan -- though we in the west often treat it metonymically as "Japanese Buddhism." Largest Japanese sect is Pure Land (Jodo)." According to figures released by the (Japanese) Agency for Cultural Affairs in 1999, there are 20,968 temples belonging to various Zen denominations, making it the second largest of all Buddhist organizations in Japan. Pure Land temples number around 29,628. A good summary of this information (though now five years old but in English and still fairly accurate) can be found in Steve Covell's excellent book, Japanese Temple Buddhism (Hawaii, 2006), p. 5. 2. "Shingon, Tendai, Nichiren all have far more adherents (though "membership" can often be merely a nominal family association that one is unaware of until a familiy member dies and one has to figure out which Buddhist group the familiy traditionally belongs to, in order to arrange the funeral)." and elsewhere... "Japanese who come to the West typically convert, since they usually have little to no commitment to their family's traditional denominational affiliation (if they even know what it is)." This may be the case in a number of extreme examples, but most families have an idea about their affiliation with a temple and the kind of Buddhism it represents. They may not be able to tell you a single point of history or doctrine, but that hardly matters when the issue at hand concerns memorial services for departed loved ones. Also, I would not categorize all Japanese who come to the west as having some special inclination to convert to Christianity simply because they have little commitment to their family's Buddhist heritage. 3. "Nichiren and Soka gakkai (before the latter splintered off from the former) were considerable, with a political party that accounted for a major chunk of the Japanese parliament." This party is named "Komeito" and, though a major political player because it helped to build and maintain a coalition that was defeated only last year, did not constitute a "major chunk" of the parliament. Its elected members are roughly 22 in each of Japan's two levels of government, with the Upper House having 242 and the Lower House 480 representatives. 4. "One of the recent Jodo Shinshu responses to the "crisis" of Japanese Buddhism..." There is little doubt about the veracity of this crisis. The near future will keep most temples financially solvent as they conduct funerals for Japan's aging population, of whom around 7,000,000 will pass away in the next ten to twenty years. After this wave of funerals, however, many temples will no longer have the parishioners and key contributors they need to remain economically viable. Unless something changes drastically among the younger generation that calls them back to temples and helps them understand Buddhism as relevant to their lives (see response #7, below), there will be widespread closures of temples nationwide. A scholar from Hokkaido University, Prof. Sakurai Yoshihide, who is studying this situation (and who presented at the AAR in Montr?al) predicts at least 30% of all temples will close. 5. (continued from #4) "...is to invent even more elaborate pre-death funerary rituals (borrowing in odd and creative ways from the Western Death-and-dying movements), all with a price tag, all with pastoral counseling in mind." Interviews I conducted with leaders at the Pure Land headquarters in Kyoto in the spring of 2009 indicate the denomination is keenly aware they cannot rely on funerals for the survival of community temples. They will attempt to use the upcoming 800 year anniversary of the denomination to promote a kind of "symbiosis" (tomoiki) between temples and communities, and establish a website that helps temples and NGO/NPO organizations compare mission and purpose, as well as strengths and weaknesses, in order to collaborate. Compared to similar interviews conducted with top leaders at Tendai and Soto-Zen headquarters, the Pure Land folks are far more proactive and realistic about the future of their tradition. 6. "When I suggested a few years ago to some of the leaders that if they wanted to do something for Japanese culture, instead of these gentrified rituals, they tackle the problem of suicide (which has been astronomical in Japan, and has taken on multiple social forms), they just stared at me speechless. Not in their vocabulary. (and not lucrative?)" While it's true that suicide prevention does not generate income for temples, it remains among the leading issues within most denominations. Both Pure Land and True Pure Land denominations have been very active in supporting hot lines and calling attention to the issue in publications and at conferences, and the same can be said for Soto Zen and Nichiren, although I'm not sure about the others. As in most matters related to policy and its impact on social issues, it's really up to the individual priests to take the initiative and make a difference in local communities. When the will is lacking, nothing happens except maintaining the status quo. But when a local priest commits to a particular cause, we see ample evidence that they can make a huge difference. (See J. Watts' interesting piece on several committed priests at http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/admin/ pubFiles/GNH3/10.3rdGNH.pdf) 7. "As Franz noted, Japanese are not converting to Christianity outright in any significant numbers, but Christian influence has been infiltrating Japanese culture in many ways. The Japanese seriously underestimate the long range impact. Just as in the west "Buddhism" carries an air of the exotic, the different, the fresh air that revitalizes stale spirituality, in Japan Buddhism is the old fashioned, old time, obsolete, superstitious, familiar, worn out, untrustworthy tradition, and Christianity is exotic, new, associated with the West and prosperity. Japanese marry in churches, in tuxedos and western-style wedding gowns in elaborately overly expensive affairs, western style." I think it would be wise to set aside these easy generalizations and dualities and replace them with more complex, nuanced, and accurate information. To be brief, "the Christian influence" should be rendered in the plural since there is no monolithic Christianity in Japan. Most Japanese who have attended high school are aware of the impact Christianity had in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the draconian efforts of the government to curtail its growth. Today, many Japanese marry in chapels run by companies that facilitate (for a fee) funerals and weddings, but these same couples will also have a brief "Shinto" style ceremony preceding the chapel event. Some also marry in traditional churches. Not everyone in Japan thinks that Buddhism fits the description offered above. Most major Japanese newspapers have, in recent years, featured articles about monks chanting in jazz clubs, about open terraces at urban temples where workers can come and go freely, about suicide prevention efforts of priests and local NPOs, attempts to aid victims of domestic violence, shelters for the homeless and runaway or after-school teens, music concerts at temples (including rap, African drumming, jazz, classical Chinese, and so on), public forums that use the temple setting to feature writers, artists, musicians, politicians who have nothing to do with Buddhism...and so on. In short, we should be cautious about blanket generalizations regarding religion and religious practice anywhere, but especially in highly complex societies like Japan where historical momentum dovetails with contemporary global dynamics in sometimes unpredictable ways. John Nelson University of San Francisco From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 26 11:19:07 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:19:07 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <797431E968AD487F9043B055F16879AA@OPTIPLEX> Thanks John Nelson for your elucidations on this thread. You wrote, "Most Japanese who have attended high school are aware of the impact Christianity had in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the draconian efforts of the government to curtail its growth." Would you or someone on the list au courant with Japanese histor, which I am not (not closely anyway), kindly explain why Christianity made such a big impact back in the 16-17th centuries-- in other words, why it was felt by the rulers as a big threat? (My area of studies being South Asia, I know that one of the main resons for missionary success there has been providing grain, amenities, and paid employment to those who convert --hence the probably over-used label, "rice Christians.") Joanna Kirkpatrick From nelsonj at usfca.edu Tue Jan 26 12:01:18 2010 From: nelsonj at usfca.edu (John K Nelson) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:01:18 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] (thread) Christianity as a threat in Japan Message-ID: <49C2DAC4-100C-419B-A234-0B20FC45EA54@usfca.edu> Dear Buddha-l subscribers, "JKirkpatrick" has requested follow up information regarding... "Why Christianity (in Japan) made such a big impact back in the 16-17th centuries-- in other words, why it was felt by the rulers as a big threat?" This is a fascinating topic because of its international and global dimensions, as well as the way leading Buddhists in Japan played an active role advising rulers on what to do about Christian missionaries and movements. To scratch the surface briefly, Christianity was perceived as a threat... 1. ...that could be managed for considerable economic gain (at first). The early Christians in Japan were the Jesuits, who utilized new technology of the age--namely long-distance sea navigation and new trade routes between Europe and India, Philippines, and Macau/ China--to facilitate a link between trade opportunities for Asian rulers and their proselytizing efforts (aimed at elites). They were quickly followed by rival groups, the Benedictines and Augustinians, who targeted the masses for conversion. 2. ...because Japan was emerging out of a period of intense internal conflict, and unifying efforts were subverted by more distant warlords (daimyo) who established pacts w/ Jesuits & traders to ensure the "black ships" would come to their harbors. Until the late 1500s, there really was no political center capable of exerting military control over the far-flung autonomous regions in Nagasaki, which became a major base of Christianity. 3. ...because of what happened in the Philippines as well as in China, with missionaries paving the way for later colonizing conquests by force of arms. The Japanese were increasingly aware of and cautious about these precedents. Japan's negative encounter with Christian "influences" was an important factor in its "closed country" edicts lasting over 220 years (1635-1858). 4. ...because the number of Christians could be increased overnight if a local daimyo were to convert (or seem to convert to win trade privileges) and then decree that his domain (and everyone in it) would henceforth be "Christian." These loyalties to religious causes above and beyond state power were part of the problem for the internal conflicts of the 14th and 15th centuries, as many local rebellions adopted or were encouraged by True Pure Land as well as Tendai/Shingon ideologies and leaders. 5...because renegade samurai and disaffected peasant populations revolted openly at Shimabara, Kyushu in 1637, occupying an abandoned castle and using Christian symbols on their flags. It took considerable effort and resources to overcome this resistance, with over 30,000 defenders killed in the final battle. Additional details can be found here: Berry, M.E. (1982), Hideyoshi, Cambridge: Oxford University Press. Elisonas, J. (1991), "Christianity and the Daimy?," The Cambridge History of Japan, vol. 4. J. W. Hall, ed., Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Nelson, J. (2002) "Myths, Missions, and Mistrust: The Fate of Christianity in 16th and 17th Century Japan." History and Anthropology 13(2): 93-111. From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Jan 26 12:14:03 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:14:03 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic: Buddhism in contemporary Japan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FF73643-CB0E-4ADC-8AF1-AEA0FAD6E637@mind2mind.net> John et al., Thank you, John, for that nuanced and informative post. I just have one piggyback. You wrote, > Compared to similar interviews conducted with top > leaders at Tendai and Soto-Zen headquarters, the > Pure Land folks are far more proactive and realistic > about the future of their tradition. While I have not done balanced field work, my impression is that the same holds among Japanese Buddhist schools in America. My interactions with Jodo Shinshu ministers and parishioners have been consistently surprising to me, as they have uniformly upset my presuppositions about the school from doctrines to the institution to practice. Underlying all this seems to be a real lack of presuppositions of their *own* about its future. Forward thinking and a reemphasis on establishing new, lay traditions is the rule, rather than the exception both in Nishi and Higashi branches of Jodo Shinshu. Of course the challenges that Jodo Shinshu faces in America are different than those they face in Japan. And whether they will succeed in rebranding the school is still problematic, but they are certainly open to new ideas and creative efforts. Franz Metcalf From donnab at hawaii.edu Tue Jan 26 16:48:32 2010 From: donnab at hawaii.edu (Donna Bair-Mundy) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:48:32 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Google as a research tool In-Reply-To: <4550_1264097281_4B589800_4550_286_24_6F51083B-60BA-43FF-8A7F-52AD0B7F948A@unm.edu> References: <1264085558.5233.39.camel@aims110> <4550_1264097281_4B589800_4550_286_24_6F51083B-60BA-43FF-8A7F-52AD0B7F948A@unm.edu> Message-ID: Aloha, My colleague, Dr. Peter Jacso, does extensive research on search engines. The figures that Google gives regarding Web pages found with search terms are wildly inaccurate. In one demo I saw him do he searched two terms using the OR operator (additive) and then searched the same terms using the AND operator (which selects only those sites with both terms). (You can force Google to use one or the other.) The latter search came up with a far larger number of hits--a number that did not match the number of Web sites actually presented in the results. As you can imagine, the folks that promote the various search engines are somewhat less than fond of anyone who actually tests their claims for their products. Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. POST Bldg., Room 314-D University of Hawai`i at Manoa 1680 East-West Road Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-3973 Fax: 808-956-3548 From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Jan 26 18:48:16 2010 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Chris Fynn) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:48:16 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] New Postage stamps with Hindu Gods! In-Reply-To: <39A6AF4B743D44CEBE7FC93EA0DCC05B@OPTIPLEX> References: <04A9FED360DA4F5E97886EB461EEDFF8@OPTIPLEX> <4B5492DD.1090604@gmx.net> <39A6AF4B743D44CEBE7FC93EA0DCC05B@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4B5F9B60.6040701@gmx.net> JKirkpatrick wrote: ... > So, Chris---Hmmm, interesting. So why does the Bhutani govt issue > stamps with Gelugpa images if it's not all that related to > Bhutan? Possibly because they don't like the idea of people licking the back of their own sacred images? The stamps are I think printed in Japan and maybe someone there who doesn't know the difference also chooses the images. Bhutan sells many more stamps to collectors than the number they sell for people to actually use to post letters. This philatelic business was suggested as a way for the Government to make money by an American who visited Bhutan in the 1960's. And while we're at it, would you kindly tell us what the > prevailing sect is in Bhutan, or the official sect, > or............? Since the early 17th Century the established sect has been the southern branch of the Drukpa Kagyu school which occupies more or less the same sort of position that the Gelukpa school once had in Tibet. There are at least as many followers of various lineages of the Nyingma School - particularly in E. Bhutan where the overwhelming majority of the population are Nyingma. However, unlike the Drukpa Kagyu, the Nyingma have no central organisation and their monks, temples and shedra are not supported by the government. There are also a handful of private temples loosely affiliated with other traditions (Karma Kagyu, Shangpa Kagyu, Sakya). - C From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Jan 26 18:58:03 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:58:03 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Google as a research tool In-Reply-To: References: <1264085558.5233.39.camel@aims110> <4550_1264097281_4B589800_4550_286_24_6F51083B-60BA-43FF-8A7F-52AD0B7F948A@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4B5F9DAB.9070205@cola.iges.org> On a related note, how can one get reliable information on what is really going on with google.cn? As far as I can tell what one sees outside of the PRC using google.cn is completely different from what one sees inside the PRC. For those who don't know, google almost immediately caved after their much heralded "bold move" to supposedly stop censoring google.cn: http://egregores.blogspot.com/2010/01/google-returns-to-being-evil.html Curt Steinmetz Donna Bair-Mundy wrote: > Aloha, > My colleague, Dr. Peter Jacso, does extensive research on search > engines. The figures that Google gives regarding Web pages found with > search terms are wildly inaccurate. In one demo I saw him do he searched > two terms using the OR operator (additive) and then searched the same > terms using the AND operator (which selects only those sites with both > terms). (You can force Google to use one or the other.) The latter > search came up with a far larger number of hits--a number that did not > match the number of Web sites actually presented in the results. > As you can imagine, the folks that promote the various search engines > are somewhat less than fond of anyone who actually tests their claims for > their products. > > Have a safe and joyful day, > > donna Bair-Mundy > Instructor, LIS Program > Information & Computer Sci. Dept. > POST Bldg., Room 314-D > University of Hawai`i at Manoa > 1680 East-West Road > Honolulu, HI 96822 > Voice: 808-956-3973 Fax: 808-956-3548 > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From Jerome.Ducor at ville-ge.ch Wed Jan 27 00:38:19 2010 From: Jerome.Ducor at ville-ge.ch (Jerome.Ducor at ville-ge.ch) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:38:19 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic: Buddhism in contemporary Japan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you John for this informative message. J?r?me Ducor, D.Lit. conservateur dpt Asie Mus?e d'ethnographie de Gen?ve De : John K Nelson A: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Date: 27.01.2010 07:38 Objet : [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic: Buddhism in contemporary Japan) Envoy? buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com par?: Dear Buddha-l subscribers, A few updates and corrections are necessary concerning contemporary Buddhism in Japan, the subject of a post by D. Lusthaus on 1.24.10. 1. " Zen has always been a minority tradition in Japan -- though we in the west often treat it metonymically as "Japanese Buddhism." Largest Japanese sect is Pure Land (Jodo)." According to figures released by the (Japanese) Agency for Cultural Affairs in 1999, there are 20,968 temples belonging to various Zen denominations, making it the second largest of all Buddhist organizations in Japan. Pure Land temples number around 29,628. A good summary of this information (though now five years old but in English and still fairly accurate) can be found in Steve Covell's excellent book, Japanese Temple Buddhism (Hawaii, 2006), p. 5. 2. "Shingon, Tendai, Nichiren all have far more adherents (though "membership" can often be merely a nominal family association that one is unaware of until a familiy member dies and one has to figure out which Buddhist group the familiy traditionally belongs to, in order to arrange the funeral)." and elsewhere... "Japanese who come to the West typically convert, since they usually have little to no commitment to their family's traditional denominational affiliation (if they even know what it is)." This may be the case in a number of extreme examples, but most families have an idea about their affiliation with a temple and the kind of Buddhism it represents. They may not be able to tell you a single point of history or doctrine, but that hardly matters when the issue at hand concerns memorial services for departed loved ones. Also, I would not categorize all Japanese who come to the west as having some special inclination to convert to Christianity simply because they have little commitment to their family's Buddhist heritage. 3. "Nichiren and Soka gakkai (before the latter splintered off from the former) were considerable, with a political party that accounted for a major chunk of the Japanese parliament." This party is named "Komeito" and, though a major political player because it helped to build and maintain a coalition that was defeated only last year, did not constitute a "major chunk" of the parliament. Its elected members are roughly 22 in each of Japan's two levels of government, with the Upper House having 242 and the Lower House 480 representatives. 4. "One of the recent Jodo Shinshu responses to the "crisis" of Japanese Buddhism..." There is little doubt about the veracity of this crisis. The near future will keep most temples financially solvent as they conduct funerals for Japan's aging population, of whom around 7,000,000 will pass away in the next ten to twenty years. After this wave of funerals, however, many temples will no longer have the parishioners and key contributors they need to remain economically viable. Unless something changes drastically among the younger generation that calls them back to temples and helps them understand Buddhism as relevant to their lives (see response #7, below), there will be widespread closures of temples nationwide. A scholar from Hokkaido University, Prof. Sakurai Yoshihide, who is studying this situation (and who presented at the AAR in Montr?al) predicts at least 30% of all temples will close. 5. (continued from #4) "...is to invent even more elaborate pre-death funerary rituals (borrowing in odd and creative ways from the Western Death-and-dying movements), all with a price tag, all with pastoral counseling in mind." Interviews I conducted with leaders at the Pure Land headquarters in Kyoto in the spring of 2009 indicate the denomination is keenly aware they cannot rely on funerals for the survival of community temples. They will attempt to use the upcoming 800 year anniversary of the denomination to promote a kind of "symbiosis" (tomoiki) between temples and communities, and establish a website that helps temples and NGO/NPO organizations compare mission and purpose, as well as strengths and weaknesses, in order to collaborate. Compared to similar interviews conducted with top leaders at Tendai and Soto-Zen headquarters, the Pure Land folks are far more proactive and realistic about the future of their tradition. 6. "When I suggested a few years ago to some of the leaders that if they wanted to do something for Japanese culture, instead of these gentrified rituals, they tackle the problem of suicide (which has been astronomical in Japan, and has taken on multiple social forms), they just stared at me speechless. Not in their vocabulary. (and not lucrative?)" While it's true that suicide prevention does not generate income for temples, it remains among the leading issues within most denominations. Both Pure Land and True Pure Land denominations have been very active in supporting hot lines and calling attention to the issue in publications and at conferences, and the same can be said for Soto Zen and Nichiren, although I'm not sure about the others. As in most matters related to policy and its impact on social issues, it's really up to the individual priests to take the initiative and make a difference in local communities. When the will is lacking, nothing happens except maintaining the status quo. But when a local priest commits to a particular cause, we see ample evidence that they can make a huge difference. (See J. Watts' interesting piece on several committed priests at http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/admin/ pubFiles/GNH3/10.3rdGNH.pdf) 7. "As Franz noted, Japanese are not converting to Christianity outright in any significant numbers, but Christian influence has been infiltrating Japanese culture in many ways. The Japanese seriously underestimate the long range impact. Just as in the west "Buddhism" carries an air of the exotic, the different, the fresh air that revitalizes stale spirituality, in Japan Buddhism is the old fashioned, old time, obsolete, superstitious, familiar, worn out, untrustworthy tradition, and Christianity is exotic, new, associated with the West and prosperity. Japanese marry in churches, in tuxedos and western-style wedding gowns in elaborately overly expensive affairs, western style." I think it would be wise to set aside these easy generalizations and dualities and replace them with more complex, nuanced, and accurate information. To be brief, "the Christian influence" should be rendered in the plural since there is no monolithic Christianity in Japan. Most Japanese who have attended high school are aware of the impact Christianity had in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the draconian efforts of the government to curtail its growth. Today, many Japanese marry in chapels run by companies that facilitate (for a fee) funerals and weddings, but these same couples will also have a brief "Shinto" style ceremony preceding the chapel event. Some also marry in traditional churches. Not everyone in Japan thinks that Buddhism fits the description offered above. Most major Japanese newspapers have, in recent years, featured articles about monks chanting in jazz clubs, about open terraces at urban temples where workers can come and go freely, about suicide prevention efforts of priests and local NPOs, attempts to aid victims of domestic violence, shelters for the homeless and runaway or after-school teens, music concerts at temples (including rap, African drumming, jazz, classical Chinese, and so on), public forums that use the temple setting to feature writers, artists, musicians, politicians who have nothing to do with Buddhism...and so on. In short, we should be cautious about blanket generalizations regarding religion and religious practice anywhere, but especially in highly complex societies like Japan where historical momentum dovetails with contemporary global dynamics in sometimes unpredictable ways. John Nelson University of San Francisco _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 02:34:08 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:34:08 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: Message-ID: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan> John Nelson suggested some revisions on my comments on Buddhism in Japan today. But let's see: I said: 1. " Zen has always been a minority tradition in Japan -- though we in the west often treat it metonymically as "Japanese Buddhism." Largest Japanese sect is Pure Land (Jodo)." John comments: According to figures released by the (Japanese) Agency for Cultural Affairs in 1999, there are 20,968 temples belonging to various Zen denominations, making it the second largest of all Buddhist organizations in Japan. Pure Land temples number around 29,628. This is apples and oranges, but since hard and secure figures are hard to come by, let's see what we have. I was talking about active adherents, people who identify themselves with a particular sect -- even if just at the extreme margin of who the family goes to for funerals and nothing else. John is doing a temple count, not an adherent count. Fair question, then: What counts as a temple? Little family affairs, storefront shrines, etc., as well as huge complexes. Depending on how one counts, a single temple complex could be considered to house dozens or even a hundred or more "temples." So a temple count has little meaning without determining what is being called a temple. Secondly, the count for Zen temples, esp. Soto will be artificially high because of some historical serendipity during the late Tokugawa period, when the state officially made Soto temples the main funerary overseers and officiants throughout Japan. Without going into a complicated history lesson, their fortunes changed dramatically with the Meiji, but many of the buildings are still there, though barely functioning. Here are some figures culled from Adherents.com. I won't vouch for their absolute accuracy, but this is probably ballpark ok: While all sources acknowledge that Jodo Shinshu (which has 10 schools) is the largest, I can find no number of adherents with a quick search. Jodo (not to be confused with Jodo Shinshu) 3,646,000 in 1945; 2,960,000 in 1956 Shingon 9,117,000 in 1945 10,475,770 in 1993 Tendai 2,141,000 in 1945 31,427,310 1993 [!] Rinzai 2,530,000 in 1945 2,350,000 in 1956 Soto 6,848,000 in 1945 6,750,000 in 1956 I don't have figures for Nichiren Shoshu or Soka Gakkai. The leap in Tendai seems exaggerated. Anyone have more reliable figures -- for adherents, not buildings? John continues: ... most families have an idea about their affiliation with a temple and the kind of Buddhism it represents. They may not be able to tell you a single point of history or doctrine, but that hardly matters when the issue at hand concerns memorial services for departed loved ones. Dan: I am not the first to report (or notice) that many Japanese are clueless as to their family's sectarian affiliation (e.g., see Ian Reader's _Religion in Contemporary Japan_), and this is esp. true of younger Japanese who have no idea what their family religious history is. There may even be Budddhist altars in the home, maybe used by a grandmother for daily chanting, but more likely it is simply treated as a valuable family heirloom, that may be prominently displayed in the right sort of room (or not), but rarely used. And they might guess that the central figure is Amida, but not know for sure. All Japanese will recognize the more popular images of Jizo, Kannon, etc. which are publicly displayed in a variety of places. And while they are largely ignorant of doctrine, they do tend to know the geographical distribution of temples, and can name many of them, esp. the more prominent or "famous" ones, and may have visited them on school field trips, not as religious pilgrimage but the way a US school trip might visit the Washington Monument or the Natural History Museum. John: Also, I would not categorize all Japanese who come to the west as having some special inclination to convert to Christianity simply because they have little commitment to their family's Buddhist heritage. Dan: I didn't say "all." The number of Japanese who convert is quite large. I meet them all the time. John: Compared to similar interviews conducted with top leaders at Tendai and Soto-Zen headquarters, the Pure Land folks are far more proactive and realistic about the future of their tradition. Dan: That is probably right. John: While it's true that suicide prevention does not generate income for temples, it remains among the leading issues within most denominations. Both Pure Land and True Pure Land denominations have been very active in supporting hot lines and calling attention to the issue in publications and at conferences, and the same can be said for Soto Zen and Nichiren, although I'm not sure about the others. Dan: This is a very recent phenomenon. The first suicide hotlines appeared in the summer of 1999, when the official suicide rate was 27,000 a year (the unofficial number was considered much higher). At that time the goal the hotline people set for themselves was not necessarily talking a caller out of committing suicide -- though if they could do that, all the better; but that was not considered realistic -- but their focus was in talking people planning to commit suicide from killing their children as well, and had armed themselves with a barrage of arguments they hoped would convince those people to let their children live. These hotlines, I should add, were not created by Buddhist organizations, but by civic, mental health and Christian organizations. http://www.tokyomango.com/tokyo_mango/2008/09/suicide-prevent.html http://mentalhealth.about.com/b/2005/08/31/japanese-mental-health-agency-opens-suicide-prevention-site.htm http://tinyurl.com/cuxceb http://www.benhills.com/articles/articles/JPN28a.html There have even been some controversies lately concerning suicides being committed near some temples and shrines, with a local making efforts to prevent them, whose efforts are opposed by the local establishments afraid that making a fuss will disturb tourism. So, in general, the push against suicide, such as it is in Japan today, is coming largely from non-religious forces, and is even opposed at times by the religious establishment. John: I think it would be wise to set aside these easy generalizations and dualities and replace them with more complex, nuanced, and accurate information. Dan: I cautioned at the beginning that the issue was complex I was only offering a short(er) take. That said, I think the stereotype I described is quite accurate for the vast majority of Japanese. Rapping monks, etc., are a novelty, not a wellspring setting off aspirant's bodhicitta. Obviously there is a range of attitudes -- some Japanese are very devout, but that is a small minority. The majority imagine themselves to be fully secularized and modern (being up to date and cuteness are the two cults at which most young Japanese worship these days) -- they aren't, but that's how they imagine themselves. John: To be brief, "the Christian influence" should be rendered in the plural since there is no monolithic Christianity in Japan. Dan: Christmas decorations, Valentine's Day, etc. "Cultural" Christianisms have thoroughly integrated themselves into Japanese culture. A Western visitor, used to seeing such things back home, may not notice how incongruous and historically novel such things are in Japan. Japanese tend not to think about these things in *religious* terms -- which is why they are being so successfully integrated. John: Most Japanese who have attended high school are aware of the impact Christianity had in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the draconian efforts of the government to curtail its growth. Dan: They probably wouldn't use the word "draconian" and would explain why that was necessary at the time (the missionaries were doing more than spreading the gospel). From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 02:57:22 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:57:22 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> On Japanese suicide, an article that gives some cultural context: http://tinyurl.com/yze95zx Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 06:01:31 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan> <00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <003701ca9f50$d9dfbfc0$2101a8c0@Dan> From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 06:02:24 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:02:24 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan> <00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <003c01ca9f50$f8ae8f30$2101a8c0@Dan> URL for the Mainichi Daily News article: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20100123p2a00m0na024000c.html Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 06:24:17 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:24:17 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan> <00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <003f01ca9f54$06d593d0$2101a8c0@Dan> In the meantime, in Japan, the Mormons are busy converting everyone's ancestors. https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Japan_Census#How_to_obtain_them They are also aggressively seeking new converts on the ground as well. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 07:01:37 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:01:37 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan> <00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <004201ca9f59$3e8c0570$2101a8c0@Dan> No guarantees that the following is accurate, but apparently this is from the Japanese Ministry of Culture, around 1997 or so. This is the breakdown (note the conspicuous absence of Rinzai). ????? ?????????????????Jodo Shinshu - Honganji Sect ???????????? Jodo ?????????????? Jodo Shinshu - Otani Sect ??????????????? Koyasan Shingon shu ???????????? Nichiren Shu ???????????? Soto Shu ??????????????? Shingon Chizan Sect ??????????????? Shingon Buzan Sect ??????????? Tendai ??????????????? Shingon Daigo Sect. 11 ????? (?????) Nichiren Shoshu ? = 10,000, so ????? = 6,940,000 people. http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q109434755 Quick tabulation: the two Jodo Shinshu sects together = 12,470,000. the Shingon sects = 8,770,000 Nichiren (pre-Soka Gakkai split) = 9,570,000 [according to the US State Dept., Soka Gakkai currently claims 8 million "households"] Jodo had just over 6 million Soto Zen = just a shade over a million and a half. None of these sorts of statistics are fully reliable. Each group will try to inflate its membership. Some tabulations are done merely on the basis of where family registers are kept, i.e., in which temple, and as I mentioned, Tokugawa legislation funneled much of that into Soto temples, even though the families still "registered" there have virtually nothing to do with any Soto practices, rituals, etc., except funeral arrangements should they decide to avail themselves of it. The Tendai figure here seems grossly undervalued. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 27 10:22:06 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:22:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to"upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) In-Reply-To: <003701ca9f50$d9dfbfc0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan><00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> <003701ca9f50$d9dfbfc0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <5B2BAF0295FB4B7AB2F1F5A5835489FC@OPTIPLEX> Buddhist hot lines all to the good. However, do some folks kill themselves because they are terminally ill and don't want to put up with treatment that doesn't stop the cancer but only protracts the agony-- meanwhile saving their kin a lot of trouble and expense? What I'd hope someone would do next is to discuss why the suicide rate in Japan is so very high, and what causes have been discovered for it. How many of those suiciding are in stages of terminal illnesses, for example, or are suffering from serious mental illness? Other reasons? JK On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:02 AM From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 27 10:23:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:23:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to"upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) In-Reply-To: <003f01ca9f54$06d593d0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan><00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan> <003f01ca9f54$06d593d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <61D42D2C298B49D887190B5F636785C2@OPTIPLEX> Living as I do in part of Mormonlandia, I've grown used to evading regular missionary visits to my door. I pity the Japanese if they fall for it. JK In the meantime, in Japan, the Mormons are busy converting everyone's ancestors. https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Japan_Census#How_to_obtain_them They are also aggressively seeking new converts on the ground as well. Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 23:35:49 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:35:49 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and correctionsto"upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan><00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan><003701ca9f50$d9dfbfc0$2101a8c0@Dan> <5B2BAF0295FB4B7AB2F1F5A5835489FC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <004301ca9fe4$26639220$2101a8c0@Dan> > However, do some folks kill themselves because they are > terminally ill [...] How many of those suiciding are in stages of > terminal illnesses, for example, or are suffering from serious > mental illness? Other reasons? > JK Another huge, huge topic, Joanna. At the risk of (again) saying something simplistic that requires much more detailed and nuanced discussion, just a few basic points: 1. There are many "reasons" for suicide, and some small fraction may be viewing it as an alternative to a hospice movement, but that would be a tiny minority. 2. At the risk of stereotyping again, Japanese culture is deeply steeped in suicidal tendencies and approval. I say that not to cast aspersions, but because anyone who is not Japanese who has witnessed Japanese reactions to a variety of things invariably is surprised and shocked at how quickly Japanese presume the *proper* response to a certain problem or indiscretion is suicide. For instance, when OJ took the ride in the white bronco, Japanese almost universally were wondering Why doesn't he just commit suicide? That's what he *should* do. 3. Japanese culture has romanticized suicide in many ways (Zen has some complicity in that department). There are spots (e.g., certain trails on Mt. Fuji) that are famous for couples to go out on and never return (Oh! how romantic!). 4. A disturbing trend over the last couple decades has been teenage and 20 something suicides and suicide packs. There are alienated youths who live in their parents' homes, spend all their time online and electronically connected, while having no human flesh-and-blood-contact-friends. Increasingly alienated and isolated, they make a pact with e-buddies of both genres to meet (for the first time) somewhere and all commit suicide together. This has been an increasing phenomenon. 5. Whereas Americans, .e.g., tend to believe "if at first you don't succeed...", or blame their failures (angrily) on others, Japanese tend to feel there is never a second chance, and the only way to atone for one's failure is to apologize by taking one's life. 6. Anyone who has monitored Japanese films and lit. in the last two decades knows that a strong nihilistic streak (often as a melancholy embrace of meaninglessness, films ending in meaningless violent anarchy, etc.). It says something about the mainstream culture and its hold on purposiveness. 7. The dramatic increase in suicides since the 90s is usually attributed to economic factors -- people losing their jobs, have no future prospects, debt, etc. The average Japanese suicide is 20-45, not suffering a terminal illness, with a family, feeling s/he lacks necessary support. 8. Suicide in Japan is often a public act, not something done in private with Dr Karvorkian (jumping in front of subways, e.g., which knocks the trains off schedule for a minute or two. This became so frequent, and it is such a disturbance to the Japanese psyche addicted to absolute punctuality, that some train stations are poised to hand out "excuse notes" to people who's trains had been delayed for a few minutes, that they could take to work to show their boss to excuse their slight tardiness. You grab the note on the way off the platform. If one is riding a train delayed in that manner, the train will stop between stations, and an announcement saying: "We apologize, but due to human error/accident, the train will be delayed a few minutes. We deeply apologize." Everyone on the train knows what that means.) Those are some of the factors frequently mentioned. The cultural acceptance of suicide, and the tacit encouragement to pursue that as a legitimate option are huge factors in my opinion. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 23:46:42 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:46:42 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] (thread) Christianity as a threat in Japan References: <49C2DAC4-100C-419B-A234-0B20FC45EA54@usfca.edu> Message-ID: <004601ca9fe5$a72caad0$2101a8c0@Dan> As to "Why Christianity (in Japan) made such a big impact back in the 16-17th centuries-- in other words, why it was felt by the rulers as a big threat?" John neglects to mention the most important factor. "1543-Portuguese Arrive in Japan Blown off course during a storm, Portuguese traders shipwrecked near Tangeshima island off the southern coast of Japan. Intrigued by the Portuguese firearms, the local daimyo warlord bought two guns from the European sailors and commissioned his swordsmith to make copies. The daimyo then asked the Portuguese for shooting lessons." http://www.pbs.org/empires/japan/timeline_1500.html With the gospel came firearms. In a militant culture this constituted a real danger to the balance of power and threatened the culture of samurai. Missionaries were not innocent bystanders, but actively took sides, and armed their patrons. Onward Christian soldiers! The Japanese recognized something that may not be as obvious to westerners in the 21st century, viz. there was a militant fanaticism to Christianity that constituted a real threat, since, e.g, Catholics swore allegiance to a foreign emperor, the Pope (China came to similar conclusions). Religion did not transcend politics, it was the heart and passion of politics. Hence the Dutch, who could honestly separate church from trade, were given continued and exclusive access to Japan during the so-called closed years. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 28 00:22:19 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 02:22:19 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates and corrections to "upaya express" (topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: Message-ID: <005d01ca9fea$a08d9f40$2101a8c0@Dan> As to the Nichiren / Soka Gakkai political party, while John Nelson downplays their size, stating --- This party is named "Komeito" and, though a major political player because it helped to build and maintain a coalition that was defeated only last year, did not constitute a "major chunk" of the parliament. Its elected members are roughly 22 in each of Japan's two levels of government, with the Upper House having 242 and the Lower House 480 representatives. --- their own website touts them as Japan's third largest party. http://www.komei.or.jp/en/ See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komeito http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Komeito_Party John seems only aware of its more recent history, such as http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,549066,00.html But see http://countrystudies.us/japan/126.htm Of interest re: pacifism and war http://www.rickross.com/reference/gakkai/gakkai20.html Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 28 04:11:08 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:11:08 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates andcorrectionsto"upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan><00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan><003701ca9f50$d9dfbfc0$2101a8c0@Dan><5B2BAF0295FB4B7AB2F1F5A5835489FC@OPTIPLEX> <004301ca9fe4$26639220$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00e401caa00a$9810dec0$2101a8c0@Dan> In case some of what I said about suicide struck you as odd, here is a youtube scene from the Japanese cult film, Suicide club, http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=suicide+club&search_type= Warning: It is graphic. More clips at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=suicide+club&search_type= Dan From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 28 09:56:53 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:56:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] updates andcorrectionsto"upayaexpress"(topic:Buddhism in contemporary Japan) In-Reply-To: <004301ca9fe4$26639220$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <008101ca9f33$e0837320$2101a8c0@Dan><00ac01ca9f37$1f3e6180$2101a8c0@Dan><003701ca9f50$d9dfbfc0$2101a8c0@Dan><5B2BAF0295FB4B7AB2F1F5A5835489FC@OPTIPLEX> <004301ca9fe4$26639220$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <457CAA5C33E642AB980F8AF2D2188CE7@OPTIPLEX> Obviously, much more nuanced that I had thought it was! JK ________________________ > However, do some folks kill themselves because they are terminally ill > [...] How many of those suiciding are in stages of terminal > illnesses, for example, or are suffering from serious mental illness? > Other reasons? > JK Another huge, huge topic, Joanna. At the risk of (again) saying something simplistic that requires much more detailed and nuanced discussion, just a few basic points: 1. There are many "reasons" for suicide, and some small fraction may be viewing it as an alternative to a hospice movement, but that would be a tiny minority. 2. At the risk of stereotyping again, Japanese culture is deeply steeped in suicidal tendencies and approval. I say that not to cast aspersions, but because anyone who is not Japanese who has witnessed Japanese reactions to a variety of things invariably is surprised and shocked at how quickly Japanese presume the *proper* response to a certain problem or indiscretion is suicide. For instance, when OJ took the ride in the white bronco, Japanese almost universally were wondering Why doesn't he just commit suicide? That's what he *should* do. 3. Japanese culture has romanticized suicide in many ways (Zen has some complicity in that department). There are spots (e.g., certain trails on Mt. Fuji) that are famous for couples to go out on and never return (Oh! how romantic!). 4. A disturbing trend over the last couple decades has been teenage and 20 something suicides and suicide packs. There are alienated youths who live in their parents' homes, spend all their time online and electronically connected, while having no human flesh-and-blood-contact-friends. Increasingly alienated and isolated, they make a pact with e-buddies of both genres to meet (for the first time) somewhere and all commit suicide together. This has been an increasing phenomenon. 5. Whereas Americans, .e.g., tend to believe "if at first you don't succeed...", or blame their failures (angrily) on others, Japanese tend to feel there is never a second chance, and the only way to atone for one's failure is to apologize by taking one's life. 6. Anyone who has monitored Japanese films and lit. in the last two decades knows that a strong nihilistic streak (often as a melancholy embrace of meaninglessness, films ending in meaningless violent anarchy, etc.). It says something about the mainstream culture and its hold on purposiveness. 7. The dramatic increase in suicides since the 90s is usually attributed to economic factors -- people losing their jobs, have no future prospects, debt, etc. The average Japanese suicide is 20-45, not suffering a terminal illness, with a family, feeling s/he lacks necessary support. 8. Suicide in Japan is often a public act, not something done in private with Dr Karvorkian (jumping in front of subways, e.g., which knocks the trains off schedule for a minute or two. This became so frequent, and it is such a disturbance to the Japanese psyche addicted to absolute punctuality, that some train stations are poised to hand out "excuse notes" to people who's trains had been delayed for a few minutes, that they could take to work to show their boss to excuse their slight tardiness. You grab the note on the way off the platform. If one is riding a train delayed in that manner, the train will stop between stations, and an announcement saying: "We apologize, but due to human error/accident, the train will be delayed a few minutes. We deeply apologize." Everyone on the train knows what that means.) Those are some of the factors frequently mentioned. The cultural acceptance of suicide, and the tacit encouragement to pursue that as a legitimate option are huge factors in my opinion. Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From donnab at hawaii.edu Thu Jan 28 16:09:06 2010 From: donnab at hawaii.edu (Donna Bair-Mundy) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:09:06 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha, You may be able to acquire them and photocopy the parts you are most interested in via the Interlibrary Loan department at a university or large public library near you. I did a search via OCLC Connexion and found quite a few records. If you are working with a librarian who is unfamiliar with the texts, the following information might help in the search. These are MARC (MAchine Readable Cataloging) fields of an online catalog record. The uniform title (field 130) in particular will help a librarian to find the work. 130 Tipitaka. $p Vinayapitaka. 245 The Vinaya Pitaka / $c edited by Hermann Oldenberg. 260 [Oxford] : $b Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, $c 1929- 300 v. <2 > ; $c 23 cm. 500 At head of title :"Pali Text Society". 650 Buddhism $x Sacred books. 700 Oldenberg, Hermann, d 1854-1920. 710 Pali Text Society. Hope this helps. Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. POST Bldg., Room 314-D University of Hawai`i at Manoa 1680 East-West Road Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-3973 Fax: 808-956-3548 On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > I'm wondering what the status of these translations is today. > Would anyone knowledgeable kindly comment? > Is this material now among the Vinaya texts available on > accesstoinsight, or are these texts different from what's online? > > Thanks, > Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 28 20:21:42 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:21:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vinaya Texts trans/ed. by Oldenberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DA8D51440DF4831BE9916E6705E0DF1@OPTIPLEX> Thanks, Donna, for taking all this trouble. Joanna K. _______________________________________ Aloha, You may be able to acquire them and photocopy the parts you are most interested in via the Interlibrary Loan department at a university or large public library near you. I did a search via OCLC Connexion and found quite a few records. If you are working with a librarian who is unfamiliar with the texts, the following information might help in the search. These are MARC (MAchine Readable Cataloging) fields of an online catalog record. The uniform title (field 130) in particular will help a librarian to find the work. 130 Tipitaka. $p Vinayapitaka. 245 The Vinaya Pitaka / $c edited by Hermann Oldenberg. 260 [Oxford] : $b Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, $c 1929- 300 v. <2 > ; $c 23 cm. 500 At head of title :"Pali Text Society". 650 Buddhism $x Sacred books. 700 Oldenberg, Hermann, d 1854-1920. 710 Pali Text Society. Hope this helps. Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. POST Bldg., Room 314-D University of Hawai`i at Manoa 1680 East-West Road Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-3973 Fax: 808-956-3548 On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > I'm wondering what the status of these translations is today. > Would anyone knowledgeable kindly comment? > Is this material now among the Vinaya texts available on > accesstoinsight, or are these texts different from what's online? > > Thanks, > Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 31 12:32:53 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:32:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? Message-ID: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Dear denizens, A subscriber has asked me about the possibility of making the buddha-l subscription list visible to all subscribers, as it used to be in days past. I have prowled around the dark subterranean passageways of Buddha-l control tower and discovered that there it is possible to set the subscription list to one of three settings: Visible only to the administrator (the default setting) Visible to all subscribers Visible to the entire universe, including God I think the third of those settings would be unwise, since it would allow outsiders to "harvest" our subscription list for spam jockeys. I have no opinion about the second option, so I seek your wise counsel. The only information I have to offer at the moment is that if a subscriber really does not want to be visible to anyone but the administrators, it is possible to hide his or her subscription from view. So even if the subscription list were visible to all subscribers, those who wished not to be visible to others could opt for individual privacy. (As for as I know, it is not possible to hide from the administrators of the list.) Let me know what you think, either by responding to this message and discussing it with other subscribers, or by sending a message to buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com. I'll check the archives in about a week to see whether a consensus has emerged among the denizenship. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 31 12:59:23 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:59:23 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] If you have a problem with your subscription... Message-ID: <50BDF363-8E61-4290-B2A1-E8D09097FBAC@unm.edu> Dear denizens, It is wonderful that buddha-l has become a virtual community in which people feel comfortable about turning to their virtual neighbors for support. There are, however, a few matters that are most efficiently handled by getting in contact directly with the administrators of the discussion group, who are Jim Peavler (jmp at peavler.org) and I. Anything having to do with your subscription (such as problems changing your address, inquiries about why you might be being moderated, questions about why you are not able to post, questions about the official buddha-l recommended cure for hemorrhoids and so forth) can be handled by writing to Jim or me. If you can't remember our addresses, you can get something to us very quickly by sending a message to buddha-l-onwer at mailman.swcp.com. A message sent there will be forwarded to us. (It will also send you a polite automated reply inviting you to send such notes in the future to jmp at peavler.org.) There are many things you can do by yourself, without having to contact a living human being. You can change your address, unsubscribe, change settings for how your receive messages from buddha-l, change the visibility of your subscription and a few other things by going to http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l and scrolling down to the button called "Unsubscribe or edit options". You will need your password to edit your subscription options. (You do remember your password, don't you? If not, you can get a new one sent to your e-mail address. It will enable you to sign in and change your password to something you are likely to be able to remember.) Despite the fact that buddha-l is located in New Mexico, home of an estimated 5,000 nuclear warheads, it is not yet possible for a buddha-l subscriber to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike from his or her laptop. We are working on correcting this oversight in future upgrades. Richard Hayes rhayes at unm.edu From lidewij at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 12:44:28 2010 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:44:28 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? In-Reply-To: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> References: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Message-ID: <296141cb1001311144o3622b56fm4a4e1b894aef683c@mail.gmail.com> To be seen or not... all fine with me as long as you can assure me Enron and McDonalds do not know anything about it. http://www.ba.metu.edu.tr/~adil/BA-web/enron1.jpg Lidewij On 31 January 2010 20:32, Richard Hayes wrote: > Dear denizens, > > A subscriber has asked me about the possibility of making the buddha-l subscription list visible to all subscribers, as it used to be in days past. I have prowled around the dark subterranean passageways of Buddha-l control tower and discovered that there it is possible to set the subscription list to one of three settings: > > ? ? ? ?Visible only to the administrator (the default setting) > ? ? ? ?Visible to all subscribers > ? ? ? ?Visible to the entire universe, including God > > I think the third of those settings would be unwise, since it would allow outsiders to "harvest" our subscription list for spam jockeys. I have no opinion about the second option, so I seek your wise counsel. The only information I have to offer at the moment is that if a subscriber really does not want to be visible to anyone but the administrators, it is possible to hide his or her subscription from view. So even if the subscription list were visible to all subscribers, those who wished not to be visible to others could opt for individual privacy. (As for as I know, it is not possible to hide from the administrators of the list.) > > Let me know what you think, either by responding to this message and discussing it with other subscribers, or by sending a message to buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com. I'll check the archives in about a week to see whether a consensus has emerged among the denizenship. > > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > rhayes at unm.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- Milton said: "They also serve who only stand and wait." http://www.linkedin.com/in/lniezink From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 31 13:15:59 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:15:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? In-Reply-To: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> References: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Message-ID: Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:33 PM Dear denizens, A subscriber has asked me about the possibility of making the buddha-l subscription list visible to all subscribers, as it used to be in days past. I have prowled around the dark subterranean passageways of Buddha-l control tower and discovered that there it is possible to set the subscription list to one of three settings: Visible only to the administrator (the default setting) Visible to all subscribers Visible to the entire universe, including God I think the third of those settings would be unwise, since it would allow outsiders to "harvest" our subscription list for spam jockeys. I have no opinion about the second option, so I seek your wise counsel. The only information I have to offer at the moment is that if a subscriber really does not want to be visible to anyone but the administrators, it is possible to hide his or her subscription from view. So even if the subscription list were visible to all subscribers, those who wished not to be visible to others could opt for individual privacy. (As for as I know, it is not possible to hide from the administrators of the list.) Let me know what you think, either by responding to this message and discussing it with other subscribers, or by sending a message to buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com. I'll check the archives in about a week to see whether a consensus has emerged among the denizenship. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes rhayes at unm.edu ______________________________ I'm in favor of option 2. The old list used to list subscribers by their email addys, a truly helpful mode. Since 2 would not open the list to spammers, it wouldn't matter, except to those who want obscurity and who'd be granted it. Occasionally I used to write privately to a list member-- say, to a person who is way more knowledgeable than I am but who never posts anything-- to make an inquiry about some Buddhistic matter. Restoration of the list of subscribers would enable such queries again. JK _ From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 31 13:32:19 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:32:19 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? Message-ID: <0558967E-E866-4263-8A3F-03B980E7DEA6@unm.edu> > To be seen or not... > all fine with me as long as you can assure me Enron and McDonalds do > not know anything about it. I just checked the subscription list and noted that neither Enron or MacDonalds is subscribed to buddha-l. Neither is the department of Homeland Security. Even Sean Hannity seems not to be subscribed, although he could be using an alias. The visibility of names to subscribers may, however, raise a red flag for some old-timers who recall the way things used to be. In former incarnations of buddha-l, it was possible for someone to download the entire subscription list. It happened a few times that someone would subscribe and then unsubscribe fifteen seconds later; during their fifteen seconds of precious buddha-l denizenship, the subscriber (probably an automated spider) would download the subscription list and load it into a spam cannon. Then everyone on the buddha-l list would get a cordial invitation to buy a range of affordable cures for erectile dysfunction from a Canadian pharmacy. That sort of automated spammery was annoying. It is no longer possible. At least, it is no longer as easy as it used to be. If the subscription list were made visible to other subscribers, it would still give other subscribers access only to a database in which they would have to do intelligent searches. It is not possible (as far as I know) to download the entire list of subscribers' addresses. Moreover, addresses are made visible in a form that a reasonably clever human being can easily read and interpret but that a spybot would have some degree (but actually not a huge amount) of difficulty with. Addresses appear like this: dayamati at gmail dot com. (That would take a spybot a good half a nanosecond to convert into a usable address.) drahciR seyaH ude tod mnu ta seyahr From donnab at hawaii.edu Sun Jan 31 15:56:44 2010 From: donnab at hawaii.edu (Donna Bair-Mundy) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:56:44 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? In-Reply-To: References: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Message-ID: Aloha, The Venerable Doctor Professor Sage-in-Residence Listowner Hayes presented listserv members with three options regarding e-mail address visibility: 1 Visible only to the administrator (the default setting) 2 Visible to all subscribers 3 Visible to the entire universe, including God Although I have only recently returned to buddha-l after an extensive hiatus and rarely post even when "active" and thus merit only a partial vote on the matter I would prefer option two with instructions for the "opt-out" provision sent to all users at the time the list is re-configured. That option seems to ameliorate privacy concerns while providing a useful service to a member who wishes to contact another member without sending an "is so-and-so still on the list" message to the entire congregation--I mean, population--of the listserv. Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. POST Bldg., Room 314-D University of Hawai`i at Manoa 1680 East-West Road Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-3973 Fax: 808-956-3548 From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 31 17:00:35 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:00:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? References: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Message-ID: I'm in favor of option 2. The old list used to list subscribers by their email addys, a truly helpful mode. Since 2 would not open the list to spammers, it wouldn't matter, except to those who want obscurity and who'd be granted it. Occasionally I used to write privately to a list member-- say, to a person who is way more knowledgeable than I am but who never posts anything-- to make an inquiry about some Buddhistic matter. Restoration of the list of subscribers would enable such queries again. JK _ From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 31 17:01:21 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:01:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? In-Reply-To: References: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Message-ID: <0C5F871533B4476E9E1D2D8EC08F123D@OPTIPLEX> oops--sorry for repeat message From mgessex at yahoo.com Sun Jan 31 17:38:09 2010 From: mgessex at yahoo.com (Michael Essex) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:38:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] e-mail addresses Message-ID: <560337.43926.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I generally lurk on this list, but I thought I should share an experience from a Buddhist yahoo group. A person claiming to be Muslim joined the group, and apparently harvested members e-mails, and sent Muslim oriented spam. He even when so far as to track down my Facebook page.? Mike? From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 31 18:10:27 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:10:27 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] e-mail addresses In-Reply-To: <560337.43926.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <560337.43926.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Behalf Of Michael Essex Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:38 PM I generally lurk on this list, but I thought I should share an experience from a Buddhist yahoo group. A person claiming to be Muslim joined the group, and apparently harvested members e-mails, and sent Muslim oriented spam. He even when so far as to track down my Facebook page. Mike ============== Yikes--I change my call to include email addresses. No email addys. If one needs an email, one can always ask the moderator. JK From david.andrews at sympatico.ca Sun Jan 31 22:10:57 2010 From: david.andrews at sympatico.ca (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 00:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Make the subscription list visible to subscribers? In-Reply-To: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> References: <910DE256-D0F3-4CF9-8B24-FE5DDE6FF407@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hello, Could you give us a while before make any change so that we can excavate our passwords and find out how to change our status? If so, I'm fine with either of the first two options. I'm receiving message on address that I don't normally use for mailing lists with open subscriptions lists, and that may also be a consideration for others. Thanks. David Andrews On 31/01/2010 2:32 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > Dear denizens, > > A subscriber has asked me about the possibility of making the buddha-l subscription list visible to all subscribers, as it used to be in days past. I have prowled around the dark subterranean passageways of Buddha-l control tower and discovered that there it is possible to set the subscription list to one of three settings: > > Visible only to the administrator (the default setting) > Visible to all subscribers > Visible to the entire universe, including God > > I think the third of those settings would be unwise, since it would allow outsiders to "harvest" our subscription list for spam jockeys. I have no opinion about the second option, so I seek your wise counsel. The only information I have to offer at the moment is that if a subscriber really does not want to be visible to anyone but the administrators, it is possible to hide his or her subscription from view. So even if the subscription list were visible to all subscribers, those who wished not to be visible to others could opt for individual privacy. (As for as I know, it is not possible to hide from the administrators of the list.) > > Let me know what you think, either by responding to this message and discussing it with other subscribers, or by sending a message to buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com. I'll check the archives in about a week to see whether a consensus has emerged among the denizenship. > > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes > rhayes at unm.edu >