From jmp at peavler.org Sat Nov 6 15:49:23 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:49:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Last posting I got was this one. What is up. On Oct 31, 2010, at 1:11 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: . . . Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org scientia vincere tenebras From jkirk at spro.net Sat Nov 6 17:02:39 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:02:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> I never even got that one! -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 3:49 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Last posting I got was this one. What is up. On Oct 31, 2010, at 1:11 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: . . . Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org scientia vincere tenebras _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jmp at peavler.org Sun Nov 7 08:27:35 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 08:27:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and me.Maybe the holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish myself. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org Be good. Be just. -- John Adams From jkirk at spro.net Sun Nov 7 08:43:40 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 08:43:40 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> Message-ID: <660F7C999AAB4120B3BA8C51A0E500AD@OPTIPLEX> Come on, Jim--I asked about Richard. I stayed with them once. It's not as though I'm a complete stranger. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 8:28 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and me.Maybe the holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish myself. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org Be good. Be just. -- John Adams _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From tbovee at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 08:44:05 2010 From: tbovee at gmail.com (Tim Bovee) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 07:44:05 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> Message-ID: Well, as a non-academic Buddha-L fan since the 1990s, I'm in no position to complain. But I do miss the discussion of scholarly issues and particularly the occasional reference to books (such as Gombrich's *How Buddhism Began*) that have enriched my reading over the years. I feel like as though I should emulate Joey in the film "Shane": "Buddha-L. Buddha-L! Come back! 'Bye, Buddha-L." Tim Bovee tbovee at gmail.com | Portland, Oregon On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 7:27 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and me.Maybe the > holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish myself. > > > Jim Peavler > jmp at peavler.org > > Be good. Be just. > -- John Adams > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Sun Nov 7 09:08:03 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 09:08:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <660F7C999AAB4120B3BA8C51A0E500AD@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX><412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> <660F7C999AAB4120B3BA8C51A0E500AD@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Oh for petes sake--I thought this was to be a private note to Peavler. O well, nothing lost & nothing gained. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of JKirkpatrick Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 8:44 AM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Come on, Jim--I asked about Richard. I stayed with them once. It's not as though I'm a complete stranger. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 8:28 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and me.Maybe the holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish myself. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org Be good. Be just. -- John Adams _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Sun Nov 7 13:05:47 2010 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:05:47 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kazuaki Tanahashi Message-ID: <4CD7069B.6050800@arcor.de> Hello all, seems, my last email did fall in the buddha-l-blackhole. So I beg your pardon, that I try my question once more. Kazuaki Tanahashi finally has finished his new Shobogenzo-translation and has organised a D?gen-translator meeting together with the San Francisco Zen Center 6./7. Nov.: "Dogen: Lost and Found in Translation" http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=265&pageid=2432 Has anyone here joined this meeting? Has anyone here already looked in Kaz Shobogenzo-translation? Thank you & metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Nov 7 13:18:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 13:18:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Kazuaki Tanahashi In-Reply-To: <4CD7069B.6050800@arcor.de> References: <4CD7069B.6050800@arcor.de> Message-ID: <705E77BFE4BF4C9A89783CE32DF72D44@OPTIPLEX> I have the impression that few of the list members live near San Francisco. Well, one of us--Gary, he's in SF. Some are in LA. To SF from LA is a pretty long car drive. Also, this list is rather anti-intellectual, with one or two exceptions, of course. Doubt if there's much interest in translation and its problematics. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of M.B. Schiekel Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 1:06 PM To: buddha-l Subject: [Buddha-l] Kazuaki Tanahashi Hello all, seems, my last email did fall in the buddha-l-blackhole. So I beg your pardon, that I try my question once more. Kazuaki Tanahashi finally has finished his new Shobogenzo-translation and has organised a D?gen-translator meeting together with the San Francisco Zen Center 6./7. Nov.: "Dogen: Lost and Found in Translation" http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=265&pageid=2432 Has anyone here joined this meeting? Has anyone here already looked in Kaz Shobogenzo-translation? Thank you & metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jmp at peavler.org Mon Nov 8 12:28:44 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:28:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] I am looking for Richard In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX><412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> <660F7C999AAB4120B3BA8C51A0E500AD@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Well, I can't find Richard or Judy right now. I imagine they are probably out of town, and I do not want to infringe on their privacy. But I will continue to check around to see if anybody has seen them. From donnab at hawaii.edu Mon Nov 8 19:41:55 2010 From: donnab at hawaii.edu (donna Bair-Mundy) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 16:41:55 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> Message-ID: Aloha, Has the list gone defunct? Did I miss the obituary? Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy, Ph.D. Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. Hamilton Library, Room 003-B 2550 McCarthy Mall University of Hawai`i at Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-9518 Fax: 808-956-5835 On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Tim Bovee wrote: > Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 07:44:05 -0800 > From: Tim Bovee > Reply-To: Buddhist discussion forum > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? > > Well, as a non-academic Buddha-L fan since the 1990s, I'm in no position to > complain. But I do miss the discussion of scholarly issues and particularly > the occasional reference to books (such as Gombrich's *How Buddhism Began*) > that have enriched my reading over the years. > > I feel like as though I should emulate Joey in the film "Shane": "Buddha-L. > Buddha-L! Come back! 'Bye, Buddha-L." > > Tim Bovee > tbovee at gmail.com | Portland, Oregon > > > On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 7:27 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > >> Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and me.Maybe the >> holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish myself. >> >> >> Jim Peavler >> jmp at peavler.org >> >> Be good. Be just. >> -- John Adams >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Mon Nov 8 22:05:02 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:05:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX><412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> Message-ID: <809427BC424543B6B2923A3FF22528F5@OPTIPLEX> Hi Donna, How about starting a discussion on Buddhism and practice in Hawaii? Would you have any preferences for any of the centers there? And/or? Cheers, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of donna Bair-Mundy Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 7:42 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Aloha, Has the list gone defunct? Did I miss the obituary? Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy, Ph.D. Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. Hamilton Library, Room 003-B 2550 McCarthy Mall University of Hawai`i at Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-9518 Fax: 808-956-5835 On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Tim Bovee wrote: > Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 07:44:05 -0800 > From: Tim Bovee > Reply-To: Buddhist discussion forum > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? > > Well, as a non-academic Buddha-L fan since the 1990s, I'm in no > position to complain. But I do miss the discussion of scholarly issues > and particularly the occasional reference to books (such as Gombrich's > *How Buddhism Began*) that have enriched my reading over the years. > > I feel like as though I should emulate Joey in the film "Shane": "Buddha-L. > Buddha-L! Come back! 'Bye, Buddha-L." > > Tim Bovee > tbovee at gmail.com | Portland, Oregon > > > On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 7:27 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > >> Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and me.Maybe >> the holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish myself. >> >> >> Jim Peavler >> jmp at peavler.org >> >> Be good. Be just. >> -- John Adams >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stroble at hawaii.edu Mon Nov 8 22:59:48 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:59:48 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> Just don't make me come in there and start a thread on Buddhism and violence! You know I can! Don't make me! My skull is starting to split into eight pieces! -- James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 9 01:29:16 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 09:29:16 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> Op 09-11-10 06:59, andy schreef: > Just don't make me come in there and start a thread on Buddhism and violence! > You know I can! Don't make me! My skull is starting to split into eight > pieces! Are we starting a discussion about starting discussions? Great! erik From jmp at peavler.org Tue Nov 9 08:24:02 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 08:24:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> Golly. I hope we don't get into a fight again. On Nov 9, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Op 09-11-10 06:59, andy schreef: >> Just don't make me come in there and start a thread on Buddhism and violence! >> You know I can! Don't make me! My skull is starting to split into eight >> pieces! > Are we starting a discussion about starting discussions? Great! > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; " -- Bertrand Russell. From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 9 10:00:15 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 10:00:15 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <8B5C7933BF83483891185C801859376D@OPTIPLEX> Andy--how about shifting your skull in nice relaxing circular movements or getting some acupuncture :) -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of andy Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 11:00 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Just don't make me come in there and start a thread on Buddhism and violence! You know I can! Don't make me! My skull is starting to split into eight pieces! -- James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 9 10:02:52 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 10:02:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something?--PS to Andy References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <076B3B2759664BC7B1DF5660EEAE5E52@OPTIPLEX> PS---You're in Hawaii---how about starting a peaceful thread about the Buddhist resources in Hawaii??? I'm sure some of us would appreciate it, considering that winter is sidling toward us. ______________ -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of andy Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 11:00 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Just don't make me come in there and start a thread on Buddhism and violence! You know I can! Don't make me! My skull is starting to split into eight pieces! -- James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From waynewc at shaw.ca Tue Nov 9 10:50:34 2010 From: waynewc at shaw.ca (W. Codling) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 09:50:34 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca> Has anyone reviewed "Religion, Terror and Violence: Religious Studies Perspectives" Routledge, 2008? On 11/8/2010 9:59 PM, andy wrote: > Just don't make me come in there and start a thread on Buddhism and violence! > You know I can! Don't make me! My skull is starting to split into eight > pieces! From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 9 11:54:50 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 19:54:50 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> Message-ID: <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> Wait untill Richard has finished reading 'Decision Points'. Op 09-11-10 16:24, Jim Peavler schreef: > Golly. I hope we don't get into a fight again. > From jmp at peavler.org Tue Nov 9 12:25:29 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:25:29 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Richard has been located! In-Reply-To: <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Richard is at home, apparently swamped with stuff he is trying to get off his plate. He has not looked at Buddha-L for a couple of weeks or so. I don't know how soon he will get back, but until then I suggest we just fight amongst ourselves. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org scientia vincere tenebras From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Nov 9 15:33:36 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 17:33:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Richard has been located! In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4CD9CC40.8090007@cola.iges.org> Well, it's good to know he is safe and sound. Curt On 11/9/10 2:25 PM, Jim Peavler wrote: > Richard is at home, apparently swamped with stuff he is trying to get off his plate. He has not looked at Buddha-L for a couple of weeks or so. > > I don't know how soon he will get back, but until then I suggest we just fight amongst ourselves. > > > > > Jim Peavler > jmp at peavler.org > > > scientia vincere tenebras > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bshmr at aol.com Tue Nov 9 17:13:45 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 18:13:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1289348025.8229.31.camel@localhost> Erik and non-Eric, > Wait until Richard has finished reading 'Decision Points'. > > Op 09-11-10 16:24, Jim Peavler schreef: > > Golly. I hope we don't get into a fight again. > > For some reason, I can't imagine Hayes reading 'Decision Points' soon. FWIW, I am recommending that even libraries wait until gifted with free copies of, if they cannot be paid for merchandising/display space for, that 'whatever'. Surely, Shaffee, Koch, and/or NewsMax have plenty pre-paid copies on hand to give away (or pulp). Then again, the copies may be analogous to the USAn dollar -- 90% fantasy. BTW, Condie is out touting herself as well. Anyways, Richard Basham From donnab at hawaii.edu Tue Nov 9 17:38:14 2010 From: donnab at hawaii.edu (donna Bair-Mundy) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:38:14 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <809427BC424543B6B2923A3FF22528F5@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <618B82B3E6A64E1BB66A9E72BEB0A8DE@OPTIPLEX> <412560AE-1600-476C-8C4D-1ADAF3198C41@peavler.org> <809427BC424543B6B2923A3FF22528F5@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Aloha, I'm feel so removed from any centers of practice right now I really couldn't contribute to such a list. Would love to "listen" if such a list were created... Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy, Ph.D. Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. Hamilton Library, Room 003-B 2550 McCarthy Mall University of Hawai`i at Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-9518 Fax: 808-956-5835 On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:05:02 -0700 > From: JKirkpatrick > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Cc: 'donna Bair-Mundy' > Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? > > Hi Donna, > > How about starting a discussion on Buddhism and practice in > Hawaii? > Would you have any preferences for any of the centers there? > And/or? > > Cheers, Joanna > > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of donna > Bair-Mundy > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 7:42 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? > > Aloha, > Has the list gone defunct? Did I miss the obituary? > > Have a safe and joyful day, > > donna Bair-Mundy, Ph.D. > Instructor, LIS Program > Information & Computer Sci. Dept. > Hamilton Library, Room 003-B > 2550 McCarthy Mall > University of Hawai`i at Manoa > Honolulu, HI 96822 > Voice: 808-956-9518 Fax: 808-956-5835 > > > On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Tim Bovee wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 07:44:05 -0800 >> From: Tim Bovee >> Reply-To: Buddhist discussion forum >> To: Buddhist discussion forum >> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? >> >> Well, as a non-academic Buddha-L fan since the 1990s, I'm in > no >> position to complain. But I do miss the discussion of scholarly > issues >> and particularly the occasional reference to books (such as > Gombrich's >> *How Buddhism Began*) that have enriched my reading over the > years. >> >> I feel like as though I should emulate Joey in the film > "Shane": "Buddha-L. >> Buddha-L! Come back! 'Bye, Buddha-L." >> >> Tim Bovee >> tbovee at gmail.com | Portland, Oregon >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 7:27 AM, Jim Peavler > wrote: >> >>> Well, nobody's complaining. Looks like it is just you and > me.Maybe >>> the holiday slump has already set in. I feel rather slumpish > myself. >>> >>> >>> Jim Peavler >>> jmp at peavler.org >>> >>> Be good. Be just. >>> -- John Adams >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 9 17:47:20 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 17:47:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Richard has been located! In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: That's a relief. Thanks for the latest. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:25 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] Richard has been located! Richard is at home, apparently swamped with stuff he is trying to get off his plate. He has not looked at Buddha-L for a couple of weeks or so. I don't know how soon he will get back, but until then I suggest we just fight amongst ourselves. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org scientia vincere tenebras _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Nov 10 15:46:21 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:46:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: H-ASIA: CFP Buddhism, Encyclopedia of Indian Religions Message-ID: X-posted. Writing job, anyone? JK _________________________ H-ASIA November 10, 2010 Publication opportunity: Buddhism, Encyclopedia of Indian Religions ***************************************************************** ****** From: H-Net Announcements Buddhism , Encyclopedia of Indian Religions - Publication Opportunity Publication Date: 2011-02-09 Date Submitted: 2010-11-09 Announcement ID: 180460 Dear Colleagues, I am sub-editing the portion on Buddhism for the Encyclopedia of Indian Religions to be published by Springer. Prof Arvind Sharma (McGill University, Montreal) is the Editor-in-Chief. Those friends who are interested in writing for this encyclopedia, are welcome and can contact me for details at my email (ktssarao at hotmail.com). Thank you very much in advance. Best regards, K.T.S. Sarao Professor K.T.S. Sarao Affiliation: Chair, Department of Buddhist Studies, University of Delhi, DELHI-110007. Mobile#: 91-9811262124 (in India), 078809909 (in Cambodia till 31 March 2011). Email: ktssarao at hotmail.com Website: www.ktssarao.com Postal address: E-51, Kamla Nagar, Delhi-110007, INDIA. From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 12 01:57:41 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 09:57:41 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] a new approach to the question of young rinpoches Message-ID: <4CDD0185.70309@xs4all.nl> Childrens talk is bollocks, the scientist concluded, vaguely remembering the proverb that children and drunkards tell the truth. His children were not interviewed. Knowledge = power. http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/11/11/childrens-talk-mostly-bollocks-scientist-discovers/# erik From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 10:37:16 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:37:16 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> Bring the mind back to what is in front of you, or so the zen masters instruct... Here's why: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/11/wandering-mind-not-a-happy-mind/ Dan From franz at mind2mind.net Fri Nov 12 11:18:16 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:18:16 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, Sheesh, thanks for distracting me from what I was doing! But seriously, this is one of those findings that makes we wonder about our evolutionary adaptedness. What could be the benefit of this mind wandering? There has got to be some powerful advantage to something we engage in for almost half of our waking lives. Right? Franz From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 12:04:03 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:04:03 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl><001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <005101cb829c$5f7d5730$2101a8c0@Dan> Franz, > But seriously, this is one of those findings that makes we wonder > about our evolutionary adaptedness. What could be the benefit of this > mind wandering? There has got to be some powerful advantage to > something we engage in for almost half of our waking lives. Right? Obviously this was all part of Vishnu's teleological design so that we would waste time wondering about such questions on buddha-l. Vishnu is the god of procrastination. More seriously, "planning" got us out of the jungle (literally and figuratively), and that means being able to imagine what is not present or actual. We wouldn't be human without it. That we are not trained to use that capacity well leads to many unfortunate individuals torturing themselves with self-afflictive imaginations. Or so I imagine... Dan From jkirk at spro.net Fri Nov 12 12:05:04 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:05:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <62F0392A189B4690AEFAE2C2A33B3BF7@OPTIPLEX> One of the best contributions of Buddhism. JK ___________________ Bring the mind back to what is in front of you, or so the zen masters instruct... Here's why: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/11/wandering-mind-not- a-happy-mind/ Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 12 12:05:39 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:05:39 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> I think it's bollocks, sloppy datamining and jumping to conclusions. The value of selfevaluation is highly disputed and measuring happyness in percentages is a joke. A person in danger is very focussed but also very unhappy. Angst doesn't make one daydream. The best is the remark about how many people use this wonderful app. erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) Op 12-11-10 18:37, Dan Lusthaus schreef: > Bring the mind back to what is in front of you, or so the zen masters > instruct... Here's why: > > http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/11/wandering-mind-not-a-happy-mind/ > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Nov 12 12:07:31 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:07:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl><001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <6F522D2F5F4448ABAE236E24C588717A@OPTIPLEX> Fritz, If you're in the jungle or among the many predators of the period when humans first began walking around and trying to feed themselves, you had to be alert to everything which means you could not focus on any one thing--eyes in back of head mode. Joanna Dan, Sheesh, thanks for distracting me from what I was doing! But seriously, this is one of those findings that makes we wonder about our evolutionary adaptedness. What could be the benefit of this mind wandering? There has got to be some powerful advantage to something we engage in for almost half of our waking lives. Right? Franz _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dingirfecho at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 12:15:33 2010 From: dingirfecho at gmail.com (Federico Andino) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:15:33 -0300 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <6F522D2F5F4448ABAE236E24C588717A@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <6F522D2F5F4448ABAE236E24C588717A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Did you read Susan Blackmore?s The Meme machine? It has a theory for the big brain anomaly. Best regards F On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:07 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Fritz, > > If you're in the jungle or among the many predators of the period > when humans first began walking around and trying to feed > themselves, you had to be alert to everything which means you > could not focus on any one thing--eyes in back of head mode. > > Joanna > > > Dan, > > Sheesh, thanks for distracting me from what I was doing! > > But seriously, this is one of those findings that makes we wonder > about our evolutionary adaptedness. What could be the benefit of > this mind wandering? There has got to be some powerful advantage > to something we engage in for almost half of our waking lives. > Right? > > Franz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 12:47:15 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:47:15 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> >Angst doesn't make one daydream. > erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) It's the other way around. Bad daydreaming (worrying about what isn't, what already was or might never be) causes angst. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Fri Nov 12 12:49:17 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:49:17 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I never saw the app because it never appeared in my inbox. Sometimes firewalls are more than very useful. jk -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 12:06 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] mind wandering I think it's bollocks, sloppy datamining and jumping to conclusions. The value of selfevaluation is highly disputed and measuring happyness in percentages is a joke. A person in danger is very focussed but also very unhappy. Angst doesn't make one daydream. The best is the remark about how many people use this wonderful app. erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 12 15:06:57 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:06:57 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> Op 12-11-10 20:47, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >> Angst doesn't make one daydream. >> erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) > It's the other way around. Bad daydreaming (worrying about what isn't, what > already was or might never be) causes angst. Nope, being afraid has an object. Angst has no object, it's a state of mind and it causes behaviour. Read Kierkegaard. erik From lidewij at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 15:15:55 2010 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:15:55 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Now that perspectives are shifting, my happy findings of a wandering day (thank you Erik): http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/fighting-bullying-with-babies/ http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_compassionate_instinct/ What would the compassion app look like? On 12 November 2010 23:06, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Op 12-11-10 20:47, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >>> Angst doesn't make one daydream. >>> erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) >> It's the other way around. Bad daydreaming (worrying about what isn't, what >> already was or might never be) causes angst. > Nope, being afraid has an object. Angst has no object, it's a state of > mind and it causes behaviour. Read Kierkegaard. > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- Milton said: "They also serve who only stand and wait." http://www.linkedin.com/in/lniezink Charter for Compassion on linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?about=&gid=1407537&trk=anet_ug_grppro From stroble at hawaii.edu Fri Nov 12 15:31:07 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:31:07 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Tuesday 09 November 2010 07:50:34 W. Codling wrote: > Has anyone reviewed "Religion, Terror and Violence: Religious Studies > Perspectives" Routledge, 2008? > No, I don't think so, . . . there is only one piece on Buddhism in this volume? And wait, you are a co-author? Looks like my institution's library has a copy, I'll check it out. -- James Andy Stroble University of Hawai'i, Leeward Community College From stroble at hawaii.edu Fri Nov 12 15:38:48 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:38:48 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something?--PS to Andy In-Reply-To: <076B3B2759664BC7B1DF5660EEAE5E52@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <076B3B2759664BC7B1DF5660EEAE5E52@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <201011121238.48234.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Tuesday 09 November 2010 07:02:52 JKirkpatrick wrote: > PS---You're in Hawaii---how about starting a peaceful thread > about the Buddhist resources in Hawaii??? > I'm sure some of us would appreciate it, considering that winter > is sidling toward us. > > ______________ Well, I am not much of a practictioner. Lots of Jodo here that migrated with the Japanese who came to be plantation workers. One sect has a Buddhist Study Centre adjacent to University of Hawaii at Manoa. And some Korean Buddhism from a much more recent immigration. And also lots of lost Californian haoles (foriegners to Hawaii) who aspire to being buddhist, and even the Diamondhead Sangha that Aitken founded. But mostly it is the beaches, and the turtles, who once in a kalpa surface in the center of a ring floating far out at sea . . . -- James Andy Stroble University of Hawai'i, Leeward Community College From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 16:09:20 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:09:20 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan> > Nope, being afraid has an object. Angst has no object, it's a state of > mind and it causes behaviour. Read Kierkegaard. > > erik All life is duhkha because you imagine you have a self which is only imaginary (atma-drsti). Read Buddha. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Fri Nov 12 17:58:49 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:58:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <22CD72CB26D74312870714056FBB4DEE@OPTIPLEX> Sorry, Eric--angst has multiple objects, as daydreaming and thought often has as well. Joanna _____________ Op 12-11-10 20:47, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >> Angst doesn't make one daydream. >> erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) > It's the other way around. Bad daydreaming (worrying about what isn't, > what already was or might never be) causes angst. Nope, being afraid has an object. Angst has no object, it's a state of mind and it causes behaviour. Read Kierkegaard. erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Nov 12 22:42:34 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 22:42:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something?--PS to Andy In-Reply-To: <201011121238.48234.stroble@hawaii.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu><076B3B2759664BC7B1DF5660EEAE5E52@OPTIPLEX> <201011121238.48234.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <85BC2A2326044D3BADD065FFDEB1E724@OPTIPLEX> Maybe when they congregate in a big circle it's turtles all the way down :) Joanna > ______________ Well, I am not much of a practictioner. Lots of Jodo here that migrated with the Japanese who came to be plantation workers. One sect has a Buddhist Study Centre adjacent to University of Hawaii at Manoa. And some Korean Buddhism from a much more recent immigration. And also lots of lost Californian haoles (foriegners to Hawaii) who aspire to being buddhist, and even the Diamondhead Sangha that Aitken founded. But mostly it is the beaches, and the turtles, who once in a kalpa surface in the center of a ring floating far out at sea . . . -- James Andy Stroble University of Hawai'i, Leeward Community College _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From waynewc at shaw.ca Fri Nov 12 23:57:19 2010 From: waynewc at shaw.ca (W. Codling) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 22:57:19 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca> <201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: <4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> Yes, well, Martin Adam did the actual article, but his invitation to add a commentary is the closest I will ever come to an academic credit. It seems that there has been very little that I have seen of a Buddhist oriented response to terrorism and Andy's threat to start a thread seemed interesting. Of course the basic response would be "we're ag'in it" when Buddhists are questioned about violence and terrorism. But even our meagre effort showed a more nuanced stance and I thought others might have something to say. I guess, though, that basic "religious studies" type texts do not get reviewed, right? On 11/12/2010 2:31 PM, James A Stroble wrote: > On Tuesday 09 November 2010 07:50:34 W. Codling wrote: >> Has anyone reviewed "Religion, Terror and Violence: Religious Studies >> Perspectives" Routledge, 2008? >> > No, I don't think so, . . . there is only one piece on Buddhism in this > volume? And wait, you are a co-author? Looks like my institution's library > has a copy, I'll check it out. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Nov 13 01:08:42 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 01:08:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca><201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <5901775E83C147CA904DDB653EC68F07@OPTIPLEX> "I guess, though, that basic "religious studies" type texts do not get reviewed, right?" Not necessarily so. Did your publisher agree to cirulate copies for review to academic journals? You can ask them for a list of the journals they circulated your book to. Often academic publishers are pretty slack. In addition, the main author (if it's not yourself) can go ahead and contact review editors at journals you think would be interested, querying them (him or her) about reviewing the book. If they agree, then you go back to the publisher and the person in charge of sending out review copies, asking them to send a copy to such and such a journal's review editor. It's a well-known fact that academic writers usually are active in pursuing reviews (marketing) of their books. It's AOK to do it. Best, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of W. Codling Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 11:57 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? Yes, well, Martin Adam did the actual article, but his invitation to add a commentary is the closest I will ever come to an academic credit. It seems that there has been very little that I have seen of a Buddhist oriented response to terrorism and Andy's threat to start a thread seemed interesting. Of course the basic response would be "we're ag'in it" when Buddhists are questioned about violence and terrorism. But even our meagre effort showed a more nuanced stance and I thought others might have something to say. I guess, though, that basic "religious studies" type texts do not get reviewed, right? On 11/12/2010 2:31 PM, James A Stroble wrote: > On Tuesday 09 November 2010 07:50:34 W. Codling wrote: >> Has anyone reviewed "Religion, Terror and Violence: Religious >> Studies Perspectives" Routledge, 2008? >> > No, I don't think so, . . . there is only one piece on Buddhism in this > volume? And wait, you are a co-author? Looks like my institution's library > has a copy, I'll check it out. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 13 01:30:35 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:30:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <22CD72CB26D74312870714056FBB4DEE@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> <22CD72CB26D74312870714056FBB4DEE@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4CDE4CAB.9000609@xs4all.nl> Hi Joanna, you seem to consider yourself such a great authority on the subject that you don't need any argument. Because I don't have that priviledge please look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_Anxietyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_Anxiety Kierkegaard influenced many other philosophers, but also in Buddhism depression and anxiety are described as stages on the path of liberation. And they don't mean that this is caused by the neighbours dog or wild snakes. erik Op 13-11-10 01:58, JKirkpatrick schreef: > Sorry, Eric--angst has multiple objects, as daydreaming and thought often has as well. > > Joanna > > _____________ > > Op 12-11-10 20:47, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >>> Angst doesn't make one daydream. >>> erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) >> It's the other way around. Bad daydreaming (worrying about what isn't, >> what already was or might never be) causes angst. > > Nope, being afraid has an object. Angst has no object, it's a state of mind and it causes behaviour. Read Kierkegaard. > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 13 01:49:41 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:49:41 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl> <0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org> <4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4CDE5125.4060305@xs4all.nl> Interesting suggestion, Lideweij. The second article suggests that parents stimulate compassion in their children through using arguments rather than authority. This brings up the dilemma of manipulation and strategy (performative action) versus communication. For the time being I guess both are necessary, but I prefer communication where ever possible. erik Op 12-11-10 23:15, Lidewij Niezink schreef: > Now that perspectives are shifting, my happy findings of a wandering > day (thank you Erik): > > http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/fighting-bullying-with-babies/ > > http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_compassionate_instinct/ > > What would the compassion app look like? > From jhubbard at smith.edu Sat Nov 13 02:07:12 2010 From: jhubbard at smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:07:12 +0900 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4CDE5540.4040001@smith.edu> I couldn't agree with Erik more-- aside from the sloppy research (iPhone as the new standard for NIH grants!!), premises, methods, and conclusions, we can simply point to the obvious: "Be Here Now" is not the point of Buddhist awakening--by definition, impermanence and the insights derived from that insight cannot be had in the Eternal Now. This is Happiness 101 Hogwash-- Gilbert et. al. should be ashamed (but they want an invite to the Mind & Life Institute stuff, and are in competition with Harvard buddies Ben-Shahar et. al. . . .the mind boggles) This is a return to the stupids. . . I am happy (HAPPY) that I can plan for tomorrow and remember yesterday-- and I do that now, right now, in the here and now I plan for the future. Try not being here now. Or better yet, try yugen ?? for a blissful/mystical happy wandering mind. . . wonderful, wonderful. . . Saigyo was a wanderer: I'm in a roadside willow's shade, Where pure water of a spring Flows by. . . as has the time now Since my 'moment's stop' began. Get it? Remembering past buddha-l encounters, vowing to not engage in future disputes. . . happy. . . happy. . . joy . . . joy. . . From my iPhone/Psychology Lab, JimBob Hubbard On 11/13/2010 4:05 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > I think it's bollocks, sloppy datamining and jumping to conclusions. The > value of selfevaluation is highly disputed and measuring happyness in > percentages is a joke. A person in danger is very focussed but also very > unhappy. Angst doesn't make one daydream. The best is the remark about > how many people use this wonderful app. > > erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) > > Op 12-11-10 18:37, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >> Bring the mind back to what is in front of you, or so the zen masters >> instruct... Here's why: >> >> http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/11/wandering-mind-not-a-happy-mind/ >> >> Dan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jhubbard at smith.edu Sat Nov 13 02:07:36 2010 From: jhubbard at smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:07:36 +0900 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> <00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu> On 11/13/2010 8:09 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > All life is duhkha because you imagine you have a self which is only > imaginary (atma-drsti). Most folks I know don't actually imagine a self, imaginary or otherwise (of course, you can call them ignorant or in 'da Nile, if you wish). Buddhists imagine that we all imagine a self, and then sell us the antidote. > Read Buddha. Read Real People, Not Dogma. Jamie From stroble at hawaii.edu Sat Nov 13 04:41:21 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 01:41:21 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Are we unplugged or something? In-Reply-To: <4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <201011130141.23087.stroble@hawaii.edu> >Yes, well, Martin Adam did the actual article, but his invitation to add >a commentary is the closest I will ever come to an academic credit. It >seems that there has been very little that I have seen of a Buddhist >oriented response to terrorism and Andy's threat to start a thread >seemed interesting. Of course the basic response would be "we're ag'in >it" when Buddhists are questioned about violence and terrorism. But >even our meagre effort showed a more nuanced stance and I thought others >might have something to say. Close? In academics, it is never about the credit, it is about the truth! As for terror, I don't think we have gone over that, since you're right, Buddhists are "ag'in it." But we have had some lively debates on the question of whether Buddhism can condone any sort of violence, most recently this past summer, when poor buddha-l was suffering a similar slump, and I started a thread on the book "Buddhist Warfare". Many innocent orientalist fantasies became casualties, and some here took no prisoners, since of course they had to svabhava to imprison. And we have gone round about this before. You might search the archives, if interested. -- James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt From jkirk at spro.net Sat Nov 13 09:00:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:00:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDE4CAB.9000609@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl><22CD72CB26D74312870714056FBB4DEE@OPTIPLEX> <4CDE4CAB.9000609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I see from your gratuitous insult here that Buddha-L is off to yet another fight. Have fun, y'all. JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 1:31 AM Hi Joanna, you seem to consider yourself such a great authority on the subject that you don't need any argument. Because I don't have that priviledge please look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_Anxietyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_Anxiety Kierkegaard influenced many other philosophers, but also in Buddhism depression and anxiety are described as stages on the path of liberation. And they don't mean that this is caused by the neighbours dog or wild snakes. erik Op 13-11-10 01:58, JKirkpatrick schreef: > Sorry, Eric--angst has multiple objects, as daydreaming and thought often has as well. > > Joanna > > _____________ > > Op 12-11-10 20:47, Dan Lusthaus schreef: >>> Angst doesn't make one daydream. >>> erik. (waiting for a nirv??a app) >> It's the other way around. Bad daydreaming (worrying about what isn't, >> what already was or might never be) causes angst. > > Nope, being afraid has an object. Angst has no object, it's a state of mind and it causes behaviour. Read Kierkegaard. > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jmp at peavler.org Sat Nov 13 09:32:39 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:32:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl> <00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu> Message-ID: <4F124210-C15D-45B0-B30D-E2BF0A96DF8E@peavler.org> I don't know about this. Some damned thing always cleans up my plate at supper time, and I imagine it is a self of some kind. Something reads books and thinks about them. Who would that be? Something down inside this fat body (is it a self?) or fat brain (if there is such a thing) imagines all sorts of stuff, like that it's existence makes a damn to somebody somewhere, or perhaps to the whole stinkin' (imagined) universe. In fact, your posting seems kind of full of self, I imagine. On Nov 13, 2010, at 2:07 AM, Jamie Hubbard wrote: > On 11/13/2010 8:09 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> All life is duhkha because you imagine you have a self which is only >> imaginary (atma-drsti). > Most folks I know don't actually imagine a self, imaginary or otherwise > (of course, you can call them ignorant or in 'da Nile, if you wish). > Buddhists imagine that we all imagine a self, and then sell us the > antidote. >> Read Buddha. > Read Real People, Not Dogma. > > Jamie > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; " -- Bertrand Russell. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Nov 13 10:00:20 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:00:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Getting your book reviewed (WAS Are we unplugged or something?] In-Reply-To: <5901775E83C147CA904DDB653EC68F07@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX><201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu><4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca><201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu><4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> <5901775E83C147CA904DDB653EC68F07@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <33919A11410D468695C119582CB80465@OPTIPLEX> @ W. Codling: The publisher should have sent a review copy to the Jour. of the Amer. Acad. of Religion published by Oxford--why don't you check with your publisher to see if they sent a copy there. If they didn't, you can contact JAAR and ask for a review. No guarantee they'll agree, but it's worth a try. Joanna __________________ W. Codling wrote: "I guess, though, that basic "religious studies" type texts do not get reviewed, right?" From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Nov 13 10:13:13 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:13:13 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl><00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu> Message-ID: <001201cb8356$0e84ee50$2101a8c0@Dan> > On 11/13/2010 8:09 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> All life is duhkha because you imagine you have a self which is only >> imaginary (atma-drsti). > Most folks I know don't actually imagine a self, imaginary or otherwise > (of course, you can call them ignorant or in 'da Nile, if you wish). > Buddhists imagine that we all imagine a self, and then sell us the > antidote. >> Read Buddha. > Read Real People, Not Dogma. > Jamie Hi Jamie, I guess your self is not imaginary, or what are you suggesting? Or is that YOUR view (no self at play in such ownership)? Buddhist do sell a lot of snake oil, but one needs no dogma to see atma-drsti everywhere amongst Real (self) People and its consequences. Duhkha (dis-ease = angst) has a cause. One realizes that, deep down, the self that one presumes turns out not to be there, and one feels discomfort, dis-ease, trying to fill the gap with acquisition, strategies of compelling compliance and reassurance, of belonging to an identity larger than oneself -- or all of the above. Since none of those efforts manufactures an actual self, Duhkha is only suppressed, not eliminated. Shall we discuss confirming this with psychology, sociology, politics, economics, religious identity, shopping sprees... or just numb it with chemical desensitizers? Dan From waynewc at shaw.ca Sat Nov 13 10:23:57 2010 From: waynewc at shaw.ca (W. Codling) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:23:57 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Getting your book reviewed (WAS Are we unplugged or something?] In-Reply-To: <33919A11410D468695C119582CB80465@OPTIPLEX> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD989EA.5000302@shaw.ca> <201011121231.07536.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CDE36CF.1050909@shaw.ca> <5901775E83C147CA904DDB653EC68F07@OPTIPLEX> <33919A11410D468695C119582CB80465@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4CDEC9AD.3030608@shaw.ca> Joanna, thank you for your suggestions and your gentle reception to my self serving efforts. This is new and untrammeled territory and I appreciate the seasoned perspective. As to Andy's declaration that the issue is 'truth' rather than 'credit', I must confess that I still more or less conflate the two in the academic setting; not that I think things are true in a definitive way but that I assume an academic publisher of some note such as Routledge would have, in the lengthy process leading up to publication, vetted every word for factuality, veracity and even, perhaps, interest. In this imagining just getting a publishing credit would be tantamount to something akin to 'truth'. I will follow through with the JAAR in due course. gassho, Wayne On 11/13/2010 9:00 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > @ W. Codling: > The publisher should have sent a review copy to the Jour. of the > Amer. Acad. of Religion > published by Oxford--why don't you check with your publisher to > see if they sent a copy there. If they didn't, you can contact > JAAR and ask for a review. No guarantee they'll agree, but it's > worth a try. > > Joanna From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Nov 13 10:57:37 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:57:37 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl><00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan><4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu> <001201cb8356$0e84ee50$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <005c01cb835c$41f58370$2101a8c0@Dan> And apparently some people not only imagine there IS a self deep down in there, they sometimes imagine additional selves there as well. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/us/13exorcism.html?hp Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Nov 13 11:25:47 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:25:47 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl><00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan><4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu><001201cb8356$0e84ee50$2101a8c0@Dan> <005c01cb835c$41f58370$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <006b01cb8360$31a3f980$2101a8c0@Dan> And atma-drsti as personal self reasserting itself (seeking affirmation and glory through personal = nationalistic victory) also in today's paper: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/world/europe/13vase.html China is buying back its legacy (the "its" being a *possessive* pronoun). From stroble at hawaii.edu Sat Nov 13 22:18:47 2010 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:18:47 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Getting your book reviewed (WAS Are we unplugged or something?] In-Reply-To: <4CDEC9AD.3030608@shaw.ca> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <33919A11410D468695C119582CB80465@OPTIPLEX> <4CDEC9AD.3030608@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <201011131918.49869.stroble@hawaii.edu> >As to Andy's declaration that the >issue is 'truth' rather than 'credit', I must confess that I still more >or less conflate the two in the academic setting; not that I think >things are true in a definitive way but that I assume an academic >publisher of some note such as Routledge would have, in the lengthy >process leading up to publication, vetted every word for factuality, >veracity and even, perhaps, interest. In this imagining just getting a >publishing credit would be tantamount to something akin to 'truth'. Actually, being a devotee of both the Cynic and Skeptical schools of Greek philosophy, I highly doubt that publication is any indication of truth, and may in fact indicate the contrary! So I wouldn't conflate them, but hope for that rare occurence when they coincide. And, of course, it is the reviews that allow us to tell when that is the case. That is, if they get published. . . . (oh, dear . . . . ) But I am reading said volumne, and will report anon! - James Andy Stroble, PhD Lecturer in Philosophy Department of Arts & Humanities Leeward Community College University of Hawaii Adjunct Faculty Diplomatic and Military Studies Hawaii Pacific University _________________ "The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power." --Hannah Arendt From alex at chagchen.org Sun Nov 14 04:03:16 2010 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:03:16 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <005c01cb835c$41f58370$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl><00f201cb82be$a3e2fbb0$2101a8c0@Dan><4CDE5558.1090203@smith.edu> <001201cb8356$0e84ee50$2101a8c0@Dan> <005c01cb835c$41f58370$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <000f01cb83eb$8c623270$a5269750$@org> One of my main teachers is a top exorcist. Understanding the nature of demons as an outward expression of our own spiritual poisons can transform exorcism through offering one's own self into a path of liberation. Not everyone's taste, of course. All the best AW -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Saturday, 13 November 2010 6:58 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] mind wandering And apparently some people not only imagine there IS a self deep down in there, they sometimes imagine additional selves there as well. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/us/13exorcism.html?hp Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From drbob at comcast.net Sun Nov 14 05:10:54 2010 From: drbob at comcast.net (Bob Woolery) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 04:10:54 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDE4CAB.9000609@xs4all.nl> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl><00c201cb82a2$775a23a0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDDBA81.8030800@xs4all.nl><22CD72CB26D74312870714056FBB4DEE@OPTIPLEX> <4CDE4CAB.9000609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: This is a major value to craft activities, and here I am thinking of welding, gem faceting and beadwork, as the product gives clear and immediate feedback if your mind wanders. Once the thread is tangled, a facet misindexed, or the bead wanders off the weld, there is no BSing yourself that you maintained concentration; there's the unwanted facet to remind you, and the practice at doing better while recutting. Bob Woolery, DC 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 www.stateoftheartchiro.com (707)557 5471 From franz at mind2mind.net Sun Nov 14 11:02:10 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 10:02:10 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4CDE5540.4040001@smith.edu> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <4CDE5540.4040001@smith.edu> Message-ID: <4EFD198D-CF22-4357-8D1D-6831B5FC70B1@mind2mind.net> Jamie et al., I take time out from grading midterms to write. During this "moment's stop" I remain conscious of their awfulness, yet find some freedom in mind. It seems to me the path toward insight, toward calm, toward awakening is not a matter of being anywhere anywhen. Rather, it's a matter of not being trapped in our reactions to wherever and whenever we are. If I were truly advanced, I would find freedom of mind even while grading those midterms. Even while knowing there will be many more and worse midterms to come. Even while knowing life is just an endless series of midterms of the mind. To me, the "Be Here Now" practice is fundamental to Buddhism insofar as it entails a form of radical acceptance of the contingency of that being, which is, of course, in some ways closer to non-being. Thus, the now is formed of what Thich Nhat Hanh might call various non-now elements. In my view this practice can and does (well, sometimes) make me happier, though that may not really be the point. At any rate, let us leave Gilbert et al., and instead embrace Jamie's cited authority > . . . happy. . . happy. . . joy . . . joy. . . Stimpy? Franz Metcalf From jmp at peavler.org Tue Nov 16 12:57:11 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 12:57:11 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <4EFD198D-CF22-4357-8D1D-6831B5FC70B1@mind2mind.net> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <4CDE5540.4040001@smith.edu> <4EFD198D-CF22-4357-8D1D-6831B5FC70B1@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <6119F346-11F3-48A7-AE96-13B42EDEE979@peavler.org> On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Franz Metcalf wrote: About 30 years ago, I trained my mind to focus by doing chores I had normally hated to do. I started with something easy: doing dishes and sweeping floors or patios. Both chores were extraordinarily tedious. So I just did the chores, trying to concentrate on the process without thinking about what I would rather be doing or would do just as soon as I finished. I actually learned to do this fairly well. At the time I was driving from the San Diego area to LA for my job. About 80 miles if bumper-to-bumper traffic. After I got pretty good at dishes and sweeping I decided to try to make my morning and evening commute without losing focus on what I was doing (driving) without thinking about what work I had to do as soon as I got to the office or what all had gone wrong that day. I visualized the bumper-to-bumper traffic as one gigantic animal that was trying to get home. What I focused on was watching the traffic carefully, and "helping" the whole animal move by letting people cross into my lane too close in front me, not objecting to people running up to fill the left lane in front of me after they passed the "Left Lane Closed Line" (this is a hard one), etc. The result was that I arrived at work and at home feeling fresh and relaxed rather than tired and angry. I still drive this way, but recently have had some problem with falling asleep when I am driving on a long tedious section, such as the Texas panhandle. So now i have the "wakefulness" issue from a slightly different perspective. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; " -- Bertrand Russell. From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Tue Nov 16 14:11:45 2010 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 22:11:45 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering In-Reply-To: <6119F346-11F3-48A7-AE96-13B42EDEE979@peavler.org> References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan> <4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <4CDE5540.4040001@smith.edu> <4EFD198D-CF22-4357-8D1D-6831B5FC70B1@mind2mind.net> <6119F346-11F3-48A7-AE96-13B42EDEE979@peavler.org> Message-ID: <4CE2F391.2060801@arcor.de> Am 16.11.2010 20:57, schrieb Jim Peavler: > > About 30 years ago, I trained my mind to focus by doing chores I had > normally hated to do. > ... > I still drive this way, but recently have had some problem with > falling asleep when I am driving on a long tedious section, such as > the Texas panhandle. So now i have the "wakefulness" issue from a > slightly different perspective. Dear Jim, thank you for sharing your experiences. I can confirm the benefit of your mindfulness practises from my experiences. The problem of tiredness with long car rides I've answered by singing Mantras/Kirtans/Wazifas. And in stress-situations, e.g. hospital-stay, breathing in-out, smile-release, is a very helpful device for me. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From member at linkedin.com Thu Nov 18 03:02:08 2010 From: member at linkedin.com (Stefan Detrez via LinkedIn) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 02:02:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Stefan Detrez wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn Message-ID: <859644940.3162770.1290074528956.JavaMail.app@ech3-cdn08.prod> LinkedIn ------------Stefan Detrez requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Subcribing, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Stefan Detrez Accept invitation from Stefan Detrez http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggnh2d9z-33/uZeXWItUoh7oH9If9UKXTAjClDCubAX49Qg3JO_/blk/I83108634_10/pmpxnSRJrSdvj4R5fnhv9ClRsDgZp6lQs6lzoQ5AomZIpn8_c35vd3cSe30NcPx9bP5KdOQOoBFAbP0Qc3ATcz0Oej4LrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/ View invitation from Stefan Detrez http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggnh2d9z-33/uZeXWItUoh7oH9If9UKXTAjClDCubAX49Qg3JO_/blk/I83108634_10/0MclYQcPoUc34Pe4ALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/ ------------------------------------------ DID YOU KNOW your LinkedIn profile helps you control your public image when people search for you? Setting your profile as public means your LinkedIn profile will come up when people enter your name in leading search engines. Take control of your image! http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggnh2d9z-33/ewp/inv-22/ -- (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation From bluelotus3 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 13:18:03 2010 From: bluelotus3 at gmail.com (P Amin) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 01:48:03 +0530 Subject: [Buddha-l] mind wandering Message-ID: re: mind wandering The secret of Golden Flower says---if you close your eyes(dark) while meditating, you tend to go in to wandering state of the dream and if you keep your eyes open(light) you look in to the distance, the middle is the way where the outside and inside balance. The eyes do not look forward and the deeper secrets are lighted up . Like Buddha?s eyes and the tranquility felt in the stone garden of Zen temples. p. amin india From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Nov 20 12:24:32 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:24:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Next time you're in Thailand References: <6B48C91C3E6C40D08A9248E4D7EFC759@OPTIPLEX> <201011081959.50098.stroble@hawaii.edu> <4CD9065C.6030402@xs4all.nl><0D90603E-2FFD-426B-AD9E-60AA7CC6DA7C@peavler.org><4CD998FA.9010107@xs4all.nl> <001e01cb8290$4f1ca550$2101a8c0@Dan><4CDD9003.6020004@xs4all.nl> <4CDE5540.4040001@smith.edu><4EFD198D-CF22-4357-8D1D-6831B5FC70B1@mind2mind.net> <6119F346-11F3-48A7-AE96-13B42EDEE979@peavler.org> Message-ID: <003701cb88e8$8f1ca340$2101a8c0@Dan> An unusual story, to say the least: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/19/AR2010111901357.html Dan From jkirk at spro.net Sat Nov 20 20:44:14 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:44:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Call for volunteers to help save an important Buddhist site in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <82633FB49FEA4A4CA5216AB722C5A991@OPTIPLEX> References: <82633FB49FEA4A4CA5216AB722C5A991@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <337D7E0C39D74B929DC8853DD7A068B3@OPTIPLEX> Forwarded from another list: Some list members might already have read about the selling of an ancient Buddhist site in Afghanistan to a Chinese company for extracting copper ore. This company gave a deadline to archeologists who are trying to save as much as they can before they must leave. Read more about it from the list of links, below--first posted by Dan Lusthaus earlier on the list; I'm posting them again. Might there be a few adventurous souls on this list who would consider helping members of an archeology program to save as much as possible from this site? Please read the message from Chris Thornton below, originally posted on the IER list, calling for volunteers to help with the excavation. I have the impression that there are some student members on this list to whom the adventure could appeal. Drop everything folks, and sign up to help save the artifacts of an ancient Buddhist site destined for deliberate destruction. Links: Wall St. Journal, back in Sept.: http://tinyurl.com/2b93n59 * SEPTEMBER 17, 2010 Article: Rescuing Afghanistan's Buddhist History More links: Huffingtonpost: http://tinyurl.com/2dhgaro additional photos http://www.osborneink.com/2010/11/morning-awful-mes-aynak.html The UK's Mail Online, with larger photos: http://tinyurl.com/2dwanbz The AP report: http://tinyurl.com/2ug82sn Herald Online, with slideshow: http://tinyurl.com/2djcw7o Dan Lusthaus posted these links earlier on the list; time to post them again. Best, Joanna K. ________________________________ To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Re: More destruction of Buddhist sites in Afghanistan Dear All, I met Phillipe Marquis, the leader of DAFA and one of the main excavators of this site, while in China last month. He showed me the finds from this site, which are truly spectacular. He also told me about the extremely difficult work conditions that he faces, and about his desperate need for more help. I put him in touch with a number of Indian colleagues of mine who specialize in Buddhist archaeology, but at this point, he really just needs anyone who can pick up a trowel who is willing to get themselves to Kabul. In some cases, he might even have money available to fly people there. I am planning a trip to Kabul in late spring as part of my exhibit on US-Afghan relations (pre-1978), and am hoping to go and work with Phillipe for at least a week or two. If others are interested, or if you want to know how you can help, please email Phillipe: marquis.dafa at hotmail.fr He is an extraordinarily nice man and truly passionate about saving the cultural heritage of Afghanistan. I encourage you all to contact him to offer help, even if you cannot go there -- he is not a Buddhist scholar by training (he works in prehistory, mostly), and needs help from experts to tell him what he is finding. Best wishes, Chris Thornton (UPenn/George Mason/NGS) __._,_.___ From jkirk at spro.net Sun Nov 21 11:51:34 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:51:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Call for volunteers to help save an important Buddhist site in Afghanistan References: <82633FB49FEA4A4CA5216AB722C5A991@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <84BAE5374826470DBD2B24D3AEF5E055@OPTIPLEX> Re-sending as not posted. JK -----Original Message----- From: JKirkpatrick [mailto:jkirk at spro.net] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:44 PM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: RE: Call for volunteers to help save an important Buddhist site in Afghanistan Forwarded from another list: Some list members might already have read about the selling of an ancient Buddhist site in Afghanistan to a Chinese company for extracting copper ore. This company gave a deadline to archeologists who are trying to save as much as they can before they must leave. Read more about it from the list of links, below--first posted by Dan Lusthaus earlier on the list; I'm posting them again. Might there be a few adventurous souls on this list who would consider helping members of an archeology program to save as much as possible from this site? Please read the message from Chris Thornton below, originally posted on the IER list, calling for volunteers to help with the excavation. I have the impression that there are some student members on this list to whom the adventure could appeal. Drop everything folks, and sign up to help save the artifacts of an ancient Buddhist site destined for deliberate destruction. Links: Wall St. Journal, back in Sept.: http://tinyurl.com/2b93n59 * SEPTEMBER 17, 2010 Article: Rescuing Afghanistan's Buddhist History More links: Huffingtonpost: http://tinyurl.com/2dhgaro additional photos http://www.osborneink.com/2010/11/morning-awful-mes-aynak.html The UK's Mail Online, with larger photos: http://tinyurl.com/2dwanbz The AP report: http://tinyurl.com/2ug82sn Herald Online, with slideshow: http://tinyurl.com/2djcw7o Dan Lusthaus posted these links earlier on the list; time to post them again. Best, Joanna K. ________________________________ To: Indo-Eurasian_research at yahoogroups.com Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Re: More destruction of Buddhist sites in Afghanistan Dear All, I met Phillipe Marquis, the leader of DAFA and one of the main excavators of this site, while in China last month. He showed me the finds from this site, which are truly spectacular. He also told me about the extremely difficult work conditions that he faces, and about his desperate need for more help. I put him in touch with a number of Indian colleagues of mine who specialize in Buddhist archaeology, but at this point, he really just needs anyone who can pick up a trowel who is willing to get themselves to Kabul. In some cases, he might even have money available to fly people there. I am planning a trip to Kabul in late spring as part of my exhibit on US-Afghan relations (pre-1978), and am hoping to go and work with Phillipe for at least a week or two. If others are interested, or if you want to know how you can help, please email Phillipe: marquis.dafa at hotmail.fr He is an extraordinarily nice man and truly passionate about saving the cultural heritage of Afghanistan. I encourage you all to contact him to offer help, even if you cannot go there -- he is not a Buddhist scholar by training (he works in prehistory, mostly), and needs help from experts to tell him what he is finding. Best wishes, Chris Thornton (UPenn/George Mason/NGS) __._,_.___ From member at linkedin.com Sun Nov 21 17:52:13 2010 From: member at linkedin.com (Carol McQuire via LinkedIn) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:52:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Carol McQuire wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1508164810.5560102.1290387133033.JavaMail.app@ech3-cdn06.prod> LinkedIn ------------Carol McQuire requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Subcribing, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Carol McQuire Accept invitation from Carol McQuire http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggsn6k4l-3k/uZeXWItUoh7oH9If9UKXTAjClDCubAX49Qg3JO_/blk/I83966388_10/pmpxnSRJrSdvj4R5fnhv9ClRsDgZp6lQs6lzoQ5AomZIpn8_c35ve3wPdzoVcPx9bQhBhAgVkPB3bPwMc3kMdPcPej4LrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/ View invitation from Carol McQuire http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggsn6k4l-3k/uZeXWItUoh7oH9If9UKXTAjClDCubAX49Qg3JO_/blk/I83966388_10/0MclYUe3cSdzAPe4ALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/ ------------------------------------------ DID YOU KNOW that LinkedIn can find the answers to your most difficult questions? Post those vexing questions on LinkedIn Answers to tap into the knowledge of the world's foremost business experts: http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggsn6k4l-3k/ask/inv-23/ -- (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation From parisjm2004 at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 07:20:46 2010 From: parisjm2004 at gmail.com (Michael Paris) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:20:46 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sightings - Buddhism and Violence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CEA7C3E.6070009@gmail.com> Perhaps apropos of the earlier discussion of Buddhism and violence... Sightings November 22, 2010 Buddhism and Violence ? Martin E. Marty Buddhism and Islam came off as the two ?faith communities? to whom other Americans feel least warm, according to a Faith Matters survey of 2007. Robert Putnam and David Campbell ponder this in American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, which Sightings has visited twice before. Mormons come in third as a stimulator of ?least warm? feelings among others. The authors comment that negative media attention hurts Mormons and Muslims, but ?Buddhists do not get the same negative media attention? as do those two. So something else must account for the negative ratings of Buddhism. ... http://divinity.uchicago.edu/martycenter/publications/sightings/archive_2010/1122.shtml From gary.gach at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 08:29:47 2010 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:29:47 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=BF_citation_=3F?= Message-ID: Dear Buddha L'ers Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying : He who lights his candle at mine receives light without darkening mine I've also seen the Buddha quoted as saying : Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared*.* ? Did he indeed give voice to the analogy ? palms joined _/|\_ g g http://word.to ? From jkirk at spro.net Mon Nov 22 10:35:32 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:35:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sightings - Buddhism and Violence In-Reply-To: <4CEA7C3E.6070009@gmail.com> References: <4CEA7C3E.6070009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06C258217E5E493E83EC8C9DC375B15D@OPTIPLEX> Marty claims that both Buddhists and Muslims are exclusive, that they separate themselves in ways that Christians, for ex., supposedly don't. Looks like the Faith Matters survey of 2007 (which would be considered outdated by now) wasn't well-constructed so as to elicit replies that distinguished between social separation and other factors, such as perceptions of cultural alienness based on dress, houses of worship, deities, etc. Questions about method: How many in their samples, for ex.? How sampled? I tried to find links to the above-mentioned survey and found that I had to go through at least 2 different funding organisations, but still never found a link to anything titled 'Faith Matters surveys' + dates. Maybe someone else can come up with this info, crucial to evaluating the findings reported. Off the cuff, my intuitive take on 'lack of warmth toward Buddhism' is that it could be a consequence of the foreignness of the most prominent variety of Buddhism in the US, Tibetan Buddhism, with it's fancy viharas, and colorful costumes and websites. Protestantism might be on the decline in this country, but its iconophobic spirit still I think influences the way the newer arrivals of Buddhism are received. (Has anyone noticed that the oldest type of Buddhism practiced in the US is Shin, supported by the Japanese among us, which organised itself into churches with non-flamboyantly costumed priests, such that they could almost resemble Protestant churches and practices.) Did the survey distinguish among various types of Buddhism here? I doubt it. Cheers, Joanna ========================= Perhaps apropos of the earlier discussion of Buddhism and violence... Sightings November 22, 2010 Buddhism and Violence - Martin E. Marty Buddhism and Islam came off as the two "faith communities" to whom other Americans feel least warm, according to a Faith Matters survey of 2007. Robert Putnam and David Campbell ponder this in American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, which Sightings has visited twice before. Mormons come in third as a stimulator of "least warm" feelings among others. The authors comment that negative media attention hurts Mormons and Muslims, but "Buddhists do not get the same negative media attention" as do those two. So something else must account for the negative ratings of Buddhism. http://divinity.uchicago.edu/martycenter/publications/sightings/a rchive_2010/1122.shtml From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 23 14:27:24 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 22:27:24 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] visualisation and virtuality Message-ID: <4CEC31BC.6010902@xs4all.nl> The NY Times has a piece on vitual therapy. I wonder if psychotherapy is going tantric, i.e. if it discovers the possibilities of the human imagination, virtual reality being the technical expression of imagination. Anyone? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/science/23avatar.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a210# erik From member at linkedin.com Tue Nov 23 18:25:04 2010 From: member at linkedin.com (Stanley Ziobro via LinkedIn) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Stanley Ziobro wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1404925955.2721184.1290561904982.JavaMail.app@ech3-cdn05.prod> LinkedIn ------------Stanley Ziobro requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Subcribing, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Stanley Ziobro Accept invitation from Stanley Ziobro http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggvj8j0z-6j/uZeXWItUoh7oH9If9UKXTAjClDCubAX49Qg3JO_/blk/I84673572_10/pmpxnSRJrSdvj4R5fnhv9ClRsDgZp6lQs6lzoQ5AomZIpn8_c35vczsRcPsSd3x9bPpTdRdjnQRhbPsVcjwTejgQej4LrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/ View invitation from Stanley Ziobro http://www.linkedin.com/e/2a9w9w-ggvj8j0z-6j/uZeXWItUoh7oH9If9UKXTAjClDCubAX49Qg3JO_/blk/I84673572_10/0MclYOdPkPdPoQe4ALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/ ------------------------------------------ DID YOU KNOW you can be the first to know when a trusted member of your network changes jobs? With Network Updates on your LinkedIn home page, you'll be notified as members of your network change their current position. Be the first to know and reach out! http://www.linkedin.com/ -- (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 23 20:02:25 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:02:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] visualisation and virtuality In-Reply-To: <4CEC31BC.6010902@xs4all.nl> References: <4CEC31BC.6010902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7B87D49B0AC9404988FC3F595F5D3653@OPTIPLEX> The NY Times has a piece on vitual therapy. I wonder if psychotherapy is going tantric, i.e. if it discovers the possibilities of the human imagination, virtual reality being the technical expression of imagination. Anyone? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/science/23avatar.html?pagewante d=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a210# erik _______________________________________________ Hmmmm, Iownder about this. If you're not careful, the Matrix will getcha. Or would it be Matrix 2? JK From info at bcarral.org Tue Nov 23 13:06:06 2010 From: info at bcarral.org (Ben Carral) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:06:06 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for a Xuyun's quote Message-ID: <1181880250.20101123210606@bcarral.org> Dear Buddha-L denizens, I'm looking for the Chinese original of a Chan Master Xuyun's quote, "Self-cultivation has no other method; / It requires but knowledge of the way" (Charles Luk, _Ch'an and Zen Teaching Volume 1,_ p. 62). It would be great if you could help me with this. Best wishes, Ben From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Wed Nov 24 11:38:18 2010 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 19:38:18 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Chan-Tibet connection Message-ID: <4CED5B9A.3030301@arcor.de> Hello all, after reading (parts of) 'Lancaster/Lai - Early Ch'an in China and Tibet (1983)' and 'McRae - The Nothern School and the Formation of Early Ch'an Buddhism (1986)' here some questions to our adepts. - are there newer studies with interesting results in the field of 'Nothern Chan School - Tibet'? - some people in Tibet (e.g. Sakya Pandita, 1182?1251) accused Gampopa (1079?1153), that his teaching of Mahamudra had Sino-Tibetan origins. Do we know more about this? - what do we know about the origins of the Indian-Mahamudra tradition (e.g. Maitripa)? Thank you for your patience. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 14:59:10 2010 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:59:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for a Xuyun's quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <935516.3572.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hello Ben and all, I think this may be a quotation from ?????? X?y?n h?shang f? hu? (Hsu yun's Discourses and Dharma Words, lit., Xuyun Buddhist-monk dharma collection). Mitchell ========== http://www.jinavamsa.com http://www.jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html http://www.jinavamsa.com/books Ben Carral wrote: I'm looking for the Chinese original of a Chan Master Xuyun's quote, "Self-cultivation has no other method; / It requires but knowledge of the way" (Charles Luk, Ch'an and Zen Teaching Volume 1, p. 62). It would be great if you could help me with this. Best wishes, Ben From richard.nance at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 10:50:08 2010 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:50:08 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Chan-Tibet connection In-Reply-To: <4CED5B9A.3030301@arcor.de> References: <4CED5B9A.3030301@arcor.de> Message-ID: Dear Bernhard, As a place to start re: your Chan and Tibet question, some of the essays -- and bibliographic information -- collected here may be useful (unfortunately, I don't have the book ready to hand at the moment, so I can't be more specific than this): http://www.wisdompubs.org/pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=33066&-Token.Action=&image=1 In addition, if you haven't done so already, you may want to take a look at the work of Samten Karmay -- particularly _The Great Perfection_. A portion of the latter work is accessible via Google Books here: http://tinyurl.com/2a5ane3 Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana University On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:38 PM, M.B. Schiekel wrote: > Hello all, > > after reading (parts of) 'Lancaster/Lai - Early Ch'an in China and Tibet > (1983)' and 'McRae - The Nothern School and the Formation of Early Ch'an > Buddhism (1986)' here some questions to our adepts. > > - are there newer studies with interesting results in the field of > 'Nothern Chan School - Tibet'? > > - some people in Tibet (e.g. Sakya Pandita, 1182?1251) accused Gampopa > (1079?1153), that his teaching of Mahamudra had Sino-Tibetan origins. Do > we know more about this? > > - what do we know about the origins of the Indian-Mahamudra tradition > (e.g. Maitripa)? > > Thank you for your patience. > > in metta, > bernhard > > > -- > http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ > GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 11:36:08 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 19:36:08 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta Message-ID: Hi, Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the mind look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer from low self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they really are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or the very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? Thank you, Stefan From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 11:42:23 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:42:23 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. Dante On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Hi, > > Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the mind > look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often > wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer from low > self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they really > are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or the > very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a > contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? > > Thank you, > > Stefan > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 11:55:37 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 19:55:37 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help someone who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage sexual abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have been known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. Stefan 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > > Dante > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the > mind > > look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often > > wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer from > low > > self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they really > > are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or the > > very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a > > contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Stefan > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Thu Nov 25 12:17:48 2010 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:17:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for a Xuyun's quote (Mitchell Ginsberg) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <903803.91763.qm@web120713.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> hello Ben and all, Another try at the Chinese, which perhaps worked on other computers (?) but not here. The title is presumably (in traditional characters): ?????? X?y?n h?shang f? hu? (if that doesn't work with the tones: Xu1yun2 he2shang fa3 hui4). This would be "Hsu yun's Discourses and Dharma Words," lit., approx. Xuyun Buddhist Monk Dharma Collection. I'm writing this now with the browser setting as Unicode (UTF-8), if that helps. In simplified characters (maybe working better?): ??????. Mitchell The earlier attempt read here (with numerous question marks replacing text): I think this may be a quotation from ?????? X?y?n h?shang f? hu? (Hsu yun's Discourses and Dharma Words, lit., ... Ben's question: I'm looking for the Chinese original of a Chan Master Xuyun's quote, "Self-cultivation has no other method; It requires but knowledge of the way" (Charles Luk, Ch'an and Zen Teaching Volume 1, p. 62). It would be great if you could help me with this. Best wishes, Ben From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 12:18:33 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 14:18:33 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does everything. On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help someone > who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage sexual > abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have been > known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. > > Stefan > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >> >> Dante >> >> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez >> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the >> mind >>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often >>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer from >> low >>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they really >>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or the >>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a >>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Stefan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 12:34:26 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:34:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> References: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok, thank you, Dante. Is the practice of bodhicitta adopted in Western approaches of psychotherapies? Can you tell me if and how this has been done? 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does everything. > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez > wrote: > > > How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help someone > > who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage > sexual > > abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have been > > known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. > > > > Stefan > > > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > > > >> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > >> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > >> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > >> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > >> > >> Dante > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez > > >> wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the > >> mind > >>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often > >>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer > from > >> low > >>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they > really > >>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or > the > >>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a > >>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> > >>> Stefan > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> buddha-l mailing list > >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> buddha-l mailing list > >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 12:41:45 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 14:41:45 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2AE9C388-EE5A-436D-9876-ECE6D52B5590@gmail.com> i have no idea. based on what ive seen of the "benefits" of "western approaches to psychotherapies", i wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. ive only seen people get worse under their guidance. On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Ok, thank you, Dante. Is the practice of bodhicitta adopted in Western > approaches of psychotherapies? Can you tell me if and how this has been > done? > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does everything. >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez >> wrote: >> >>> How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help someone >>> who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage >> sexual >>> abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have been >>> known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. >>> >>> Stefan >>> >>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >>> >>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >>>> >>>> Dante >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the >>>> mind >>>>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often >>>>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer >> from >>>> low >>>>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they >> really >>>>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or >> the >>>>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a >>>>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Stefan >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion >>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:05:24 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:05:24 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: <2AE9C388-EE5A-436D-9876-ECE6D52B5590@gmail.com> References: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> <2AE9C388-EE5A-436D-9876-ECE6D52B5590@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a bold generalization. I feel however uncomfortable with the idea that non-Western psychotherapies are in every way better than all Western psychotherapies. Not wanting to generalize, I think some Western psychotherapies have, with trial and error, produced good results. How ideas of atta and anatta are involved is unknown to me. Can you point me to Buddhist-grounded therapies which deal with for instance psychotic personality disorders or adhd? Can such therapies deal with these fine spectra? How do you say to a psychotic person he or she's self-obsessed and should develop bodhicitta. Do you think it will cure that person? 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > i have no idea. based on what ive seen of the "benefits" of "western > approaches to psychotherapies", i wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. > ive only seen people get worse under their guidance. > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Stefan Detrez > wrote: > > > Ok, thank you, Dante. Is the practice of bodhicitta adopted in Western > > approaches of psychotherapies? Can you tell me if and how this has been > > done? > > > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > > > >> the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does everything. > >> > >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez > >> wrote: > >> > >>> How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help > someone > >>> who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage > >> sexual > >>> abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have > been > >>> known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. > >>> > >>> Stefan > >>> > >>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >>> > >>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > >>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > >>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > >>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > >>>> > >>>> Dante > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez < > stefan.detrez at gmail.com > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the > >>>> mind > >>>>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often > >>>>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer > >> from > >>>> low > >>>>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they > >> really > >>>>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or > >> the > >>>>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS > a > >>>>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you, > >>>>> > >>>>> Stefan > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> buddha-l mailing list > >>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> buddha-l mailing list > >>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take > religion > >>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> buddha-l mailing list > >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> buddha-l mailing list > >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:26:41 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:26:41 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> <2AE9C388-EE5A-436D-9876-ECE6D52B5590@gmail.com> Message-ID: i dont think its an east-west thing. its a question of focusing on yourself snd your horrible old condition vs focusing on helping others. in some traditions its called bodhicitta, in others charity or doing unto others. the basis of medically based therapies seems to be increasing the focus on ones self, either by endlessly digging into the black hole of the past or completely screwing up your brain chemistry, usually both. On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > That's a bold generalization. I feel however uncomfortable with the idea > that non-Western psychotherapies are in every way better than all Western > psychotherapies. Not wanting to generalize, I think some Western > psychotherapies have, with trial and error, produced good results. How ideas > of atta and anatta are involved is unknown to me. Can you point me to > Buddhist-grounded therapies which deal with for instance psychotic > personality disorders or adhd? Can such therapies deal with these fine > spectra? How do you say to a psychotic person he or she's self-obsessed and > should develop bodhicitta. Do you think it will cure that person? > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> i have no idea. based on what ive seen of the "benefits" of "western >> approaches to psychotherapies", i wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. >> ive only seen people get worse under their guidance. >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Stefan Detrez >> wrote: >> >>> Ok, thank you, Dante. Is the practice of bodhicitta adopted in Western >>> approaches of psychotherapies? Can you tell me if and how this has been >>> done? >>> >>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >>> >>>> the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does everything. >>>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help >> someone >>>>> who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage >>>> sexual >>>>> abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have >> been >>>>> known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. >>>>> >>>>> Stefan >>>>> >>>>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >>>>> >>>>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >>>>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >>>>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >>>>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dante >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez < >> stefan.detrez at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the >>>>>> mind >>>>>>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often >>>>>>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer >>>> from >>>>>> low >>>>>>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they >>>> really >>>>>>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or >>>> the >>>>>>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS >> a >>>>>>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stefan >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take >> religion >>>>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion >>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:30:15 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:30:15 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> <2AE9C388-EE5A-436D-9876-ECE6D52B5590@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you know what place anatta takes in this whole? In what way is it different from a Hindu-approach which incorporates atta? As far as I understand, anatta is of no major importance in helping a patient out. Or is it? 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > i dont think its an east-west thing. its a question of focusing on yourself > snd your horrible old condition vs focusing on helping others. in some > traditions its called bodhicitta, in others charity or doing unto others. > the basis of medically based therapies seems to be increasing the focus on > ones self, either by endlessly digging into the black hole of the past or > completely screwing up your brain chemistry, usually both. > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Stefan Detrez > wrote: > > > That's a bold generalization. I feel however uncomfortable with the idea > > that non-Western psychotherapies are in every way better than all Western > > psychotherapies. Not wanting to generalize, I think some Western > > psychotherapies have, with trial and error, produced good results. How > ideas > > of atta and anatta are involved is unknown to me. Can you point me to > > Buddhist-grounded therapies which deal with for instance psychotic > > personality disorders or adhd? Can such therapies deal with these fine > > spectra? How do you say to a psychotic person he or she's self-obsessed > and > > should develop bodhicitta. Do you think it will cure that person? > > > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > > > >> i have no idea. based on what ive seen of the "benefits" of "western > >> approaches to psychotherapies", i wouldn't touch them with a ten foot > pole. > >> ive only seen people get worse under their guidance. > >> > >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Stefan Detrez > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Ok, thank you, Dante. Is the practice of bodhicitta adopted in Western > >>> approaches of psychotherapies? Can you tell me if and how this has been > >>> done? > >>> > >>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >>> > >>>> the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does > everything. > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help > >> someone > >>>>> who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage > >>>> sexual > >>>>> abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have > >> been > >>>>> known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. > >>>>> > >>>>> Stefan > >>>>> > >>>>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >>>>> > >>>>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > >>>>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > >>>>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > >>>>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dante > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez < > >> stefan.detrez at gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of > the > >>>>>> mind > >>>>>>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have > often > >>>>>>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer > >>>> from > >>>>>> low > >>>>>>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they > >>>> really > >>>>>>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, > or > >>>> the > >>>>>>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self > IS > >> a > >>>>>>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thank you, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Stefan > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> buddha-l mailing list > >>>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> buddha-l mailing list > >>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take > >> religion > >>>>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> buddha-l mailing list > >>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> buddha-l mailing list > >>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take > religion > >>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> buddha-l mailing list > >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> buddha-l mailing list > >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From franz at mind2mind.net Thu Nov 25 13:35:06 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:35:06 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> Hello all, On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: > low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned to routinely advise borderline personality types to receive psychological counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I have other obligations. With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, Franz Metcalf From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:38:39 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:38:39 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <9892AF62-802B-4207-B5B0-7C79E7EE6333@gmail.com> <2AE9C388-EE5A-436D-9876-ECE6D52B5590@gmail.com> Message-ID: it could help in allowing one to get out of ones head, which is where the problems are to begin with. again, anatta and dependent origination can help keep ones mind from imploding on itself. even better is realizing that there is no mind to begin with. On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Do you know what place anatta takes in this whole? In what way is it > different from a Hindu-approach which incorporates atta? As far as I > understand, anatta is of no major importance in helping a patient out. Or > is it? > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> i dont think its an east-west thing. its a question of focusing on yourself >> snd your horrible old condition vs focusing on helping others. in some >> traditions its called bodhicitta, in others charity or doing unto others. >> the basis of medically based therapies seems to be increasing the focus on >> ones self, either by endlessly digging into the black hole of the past or >> completely screwing up your brain chemistry, usually both. >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Stefan Detrez >> wrote: >> >>> That's a bold generalization. I feel however uncomfortable with the idea >>> that non-Western psychotherapies are in every way better than all Western >>> psychotherapies. Not wanting to generalize, I think some Western >>> psychotherapies have, with trial and error, produced good results. How >> ideas >>> of atta and anatta are involved is unknown to me. Can you point me to >>> Buddhist-grounded therapies which deal with for instance psychotic >>> personality disorders or adhd? Can such therapies deal with these fine >>> spectra? How do you say to a psychotic person he or she's self-obsessed >> and >>> should develop bodhicitta. Do you think it will cure that person? >>> >>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >>> >>>> i have no idea. based on what ive seen of the "benefits" of "western >>>> approaches to psychotherapies", i wouldn't touch them with a ten foot >> pole. >>>> ive only seen people get worse under their guidance. >>>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Stefan Detrez >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ok, thank you, Dante. Is the practice of bodhicitta adopted in Western >>>>> approaches of psychotherapies? Can you tell me if and how this has been >>>>> done? >>>>> >>>>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >>>>> >>>>>> the diagnosis does nothing. the practice of bodhicitta does >> everything. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Stefan Detrez >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> How would the diagnosis of self-obsession and mental illness help >>>> someone >>>>>>> who has developed a personality disorder as a consequence of underage >>>>>> sexual >>>>>>> abuse and exposure to extreme violence? People with such pasts have >>>> been >>>>>>> known to have an unstable self image. Just a question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stefan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >>>>>>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >>>>>>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >>>>>>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dante >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Stefan Detrez < >>>> stefan.detrez at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of >> the >>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>> look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have >> often >>>>>>>>> wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer >>>>>> from >>>>>>>> low >>>>>>>>> self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they >>>>>> really >>>>>>>>> are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, >> or >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self >> IS >>>> a >>>>>>>>> contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Stefan >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take >>>> religion >>>>>>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take >> religion >>>>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> buddha-l mailing list >>>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion >>> more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:40:36 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:40:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> wow, someone who thinks generating compassion is a bad idea! thats impressive! On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:35 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Hello all, > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: > >> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > > I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with > low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self > before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned to > routinely advise borderline personality types to receive psychological > counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. > > Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful > of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental > illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt > and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I > have other obligations. > > With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, > > Franz Metcalf > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:52:03 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:52:03 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think Franz is saying that particularly severe personality disorders cannot be cured with anatta based therapies. He also points to the question I have to what extent realizing selflessness can be achieved by people who have no clearly defined self image. Ironically, people with low esteem should be nearer to enlightenment than others, since they have less to work on. Nowhere is it clear that he states that generating compassion is a bad idea. I suppose generating selfless compassion presupposes a sense of self, however paradoxical that sounds. Can you comment on that? Happy Thanksgiving, Franz! 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > wow, someone who thinks generating compassion is a bad idea! thats > impressive! > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:35 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: > > > >> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > >> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > >> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > >> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > > > > I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with > > low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self > > before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned to > > routinely advise borderline personality types to receive psychological > > counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. > > > > Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful > > of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental > > illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt > > and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I > > have other obligations. > > > > With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, > > > > Franz Metcalf > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 14:15:16 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:15:16 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: generating compassion is simply a choice, and the best medicine. On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > I think Franz is saying that particularly severe personality disorders > cannot be cured with anatta based therapies. He also points to the question > I have to what extent realizing selflessness can be achieved by people who > have no clearly defined self image. Ironically, people with low esteem > should be nearer to enlightenment than others, since they have less to work > on. Nowhere is it clear that he states that generating compassion is a bad > idea. I suppose generating selfless compassion presupposes a sense of self, > however paradoxical that sounds. Can you comment on that? > > Happy Thanksgiving, Franz! > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> wow, someone who thinks generating compassion is a bad idea! thats >> impressive! >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:35 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: >>> >>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >>> >>> I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with >>> low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self >>> before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned to >>> routinely advise borderline personality types to receive psychological >>> counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. >>> >>> Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful >>> of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental >>> illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt >>> and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I >>> have other obligations. >>> >>> With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, >>> >>> Franz Metcalf >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 14:33:16 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:33:16 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: You believe a psychopath can choose to generate compassion and get cured? 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > generating compassion is simply a choice, and the best medicine. > > On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Stefan Detrez > wrote: > > > I think Franz is saying that particularly severe personality disorders > > cannot be cured with anatta based therapies. He also points to the > question > > I have to what extent realizing selflessness can be achieved by people > who > > have no clearly defined self image. Ironically, people with low esteem > > should be nearer to enlightenment than others, since they have less to > work > > on. Nowhere is it clear that he states that generating compassion is a > bad > > idea. I suppose generating selfless compassion presupposes a sense of > self, > > however paradoxical that sounds. Can you comment on that? > > > > Happy Thanksgiving, Franz! > > > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > > > >> wow, someone who thinks generating compassion is a bad idea! thats > >> impressive! > >> > >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:35 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > >> > >>> Hello all, > >>> > >>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: > >>> > >>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by > >>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating > >>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, > >>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. > >>> > >>> I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with > >>> low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self > >>> before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned to > >>> routinely advise borderline personality types to receive psychological > >>> counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. > >>> > >>> Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful > >>> of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental > >>> illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt > >>> and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I > >>> have other obligations. > >>> > >>> With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, > >>> > >>> Franz Metcalf > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> buddha-l mailing list > >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> buddha-l mailing list > >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Thu Nov 25 15:06:33 2010 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:06:33 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net><570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: chogyam trungpa's favourite psychiatrist, named I believe, Ed Podvoll, published a book called the Seduction of Madness, about bipolar pathology and its treatment by "contemplative psychotherapy". There was also a journal published I think by Shambhala people with essays about buddhist approaches to psychosis, etc. I forget the title. Maybe someone on this list can tell us more. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Detrez" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta > You believe a psychopath can choose to generate compassion and get cured? > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> generating compassion is simply a choice, and the best medicine. >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Stefan Detrez >> wrote: >> >> > I think Franz is saying that particularly severe personality disorders >> > cannot be cured with anatta based therapies. He also points to the >> question >> > I have to what extent realizing selflessness can be achieved by people >> who >> > have no clearly defined self image. Ironically, people with low esteem >> > should be nearer to enlightenment than others, since they have less to >> work >> > on. Nowhere is it clear that he states that generating compassion is a >> bad >> > idea. I suppose generating selfless compassion presupposes a sense of >> self, >> > however paradoxical that sounds. Can you comment on that? >> > >> > Happy Thanksgiving, Franz! >> > >> > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >> > >> >> wow, someone who thinks generating compassion is a bad idea! thats >> >> impressive! >> >> >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:35 PM, Franz Metcalf >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hello all, >> >>> >> >>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >> >>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >> >>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >> >>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >> >>> >> >>> I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with >> >>> low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self >> >>> before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned >> >>> to >> >>> routinely advise borderline personality types to receive >> >>> psychological >> >>> counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. >> >>> >> >>> Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful >> >>> of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental >> >>> illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt >> >>> and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I >> >>> have other obligations. >> >>> >> >>> With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, >> >>> >> >>> Franz Metcalf >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> buddha-l mailing list >> >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> buddha-l mailing list >> >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take >> > religion >> > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > buddha-l mailing list >> > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From mgessex at yahoo.com Thu Nov 25 16:58:06 2010 From: mgessex at yahoo.com (Michael Essex) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:58:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <10791.10699.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Taking your question seriously, there are many researchers/clinicians who have developed emperically-supported therapies somewhat based on Buddhist ideas. To start, you should look at the work of Marsha Linehan - Dialectical Behavioral Therapy http://www.behavioraltech.org/resources/whatisdbt.cfm which specifically addresses severe personality disorders. Jon Kabot-Zinn's Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction has been adapted for treatment of Depression by Zindel Segal http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Based-Cognitive-Therapy-Depression-Preventing/dp/1572307064 Work is being done at Emory University and Wisconsin regarding Compassion meditation and therapy. http://dalailama.emory.edu/2010/compassion.html There are regularly organized conferences on mindfulness and therapy. Read things by the various presenters. http://www.facesconferences.com/ The idea that having low self esteem or poor self image makes you somehow closer to enlightenment is a fallacy, well worked out by the 80's in the many volumes on psychoanalysis and Buddhism. It was clearly laid out by Jack Engler, as mentioned by one of the previous respondents, in the first part of the sometimes hard to find http://www.amazon.com/Transformations-Consciousness-Ken-Wilber/dp/0394742028 Hi, Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the mind look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer from low self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they really are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or the very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? Thank you, Stefan From danterosati at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 20:40:57 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:40:57 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: i don't think most psychopaths want to be cured. if they did, they wouldn't be psychopaths, n'est pas? On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > You believe a psychopath can choose to generate compassion and get cured? > > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati > >> generating compassion is simply a choice, and the best medicine. >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Stefan Detrez >> wrote: >> >> > I think Franz is saying that particularly severe personality disorders >> > cannot be cured with anatta based therapies. He also points to the >> question >> > I have to what extent realizing selflessness can be achieved by people >> who >> > have no clearly defined self image. Ironically, people with low esteem >> > should be nearer to enlightenment than others, since they have less to >> work >> > on. Nowhere is it clear that he states that generating compassion is a >> bad >> > idea. I suppose generating selfless compassion presupposes a sense of >> self, >> > however paradoxical that sounds. Can you comment on that? >> > >> > Happy Thanksgiving, Franz! >> > >> > 2010/11/25 Dante Rosati >> > >> >> wow, someone who thinks generating compassion is a bad idea! thats >> >> impressive! >> >> >> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:35 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hello all, >> >>> >> >>> On Nov 25, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> low self esteem, like most forms of mental inbalance, is caused by >> >>>> self-obsession. mental illness = narrowing horizon. generating >> >>>> bodhicitta is probably the most immediately effective treatment, >> >>>> although anatta meditations proabably wouldn't hurt either. >> >>> >> >>> I would counsel against the use of anatta meditations for people with >> >>> low self-esteem. As Jack Engler has famously said, you need a self >> >>> before you can lose it. This is why meditation centers have learned to >> >>> routinely advise borderline personality types to receive psychological >> >>> counseling/therapy before they begin serious meditation. >> >>> >> >>> Indeed, I lack the time to fully explain, but I find myself doubtful >> >>> of everything Dante wrote in the above quote except that mental >> >>> illness can be seen as a narrowing of horizons. Sorry to be so blunt >> >>> and to now withdraw, but it is Thanksgiving Day here in America and I >> >>> have other obligations. >> >>> >> >>> With thanks for the existence of buddha-l, >> >>> >> >>> Franz Metcalf >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> buddha-l mailing list >> >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> buddha-l mailing list >> >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion >> > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > buddha-l mailing list >> > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From info at bcarral.org Wed Nov 24 16:33:10 2010 From: info at bcarral.org (Ben Carral) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:33:10 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Looking for a Xuyun's quote In-Reply-To: <935516.3572.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <935516.3572.qm@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1192309500.20101125003310@bcarral.org> On Wednesday, November 24, 2010, Mitchell wrote: > I think this may be a quotation from Xuy?n h?shang fa > hu? (Hsu yun's Discourses and Dharma Words, lit., > Xuyun Buddhist-monk dharma collection). Thank you, Mitchell. Yes, it's a quote from that particular work. It seems a gatha of four sentences. Just at the beginning of the third day, Xuyun says: For this reason, an ancient (master) said: Self-cultivation has no other method; It requires but knowledge of the way. If the way only can be known, Bith and death at once will end. I'm looking for the original Chinese characters for this poem. I have started to learn Chinese some months ago, but I can't find them for myself at this stage of my Chinese training. :-) Best wishes, Ben From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 26 01:54:33 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:54:33 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> Op 26-11-10 04:40, Dante Rosati schreef: > i don't think most psychopaths want to be cured. if they did, they > wouldn't be psychopaths, n'est pas? > I'm very surprised by the the simplemindedness of Dante here. There are some 'disorders' that were invented in the eighties, most of them in the US, just to stimulate the sales of valium and later prozac. Those can be cured with compassion or knitting shawls or harvesting the Celestine energies. A real psychopatholgy like bipolarity, MPS, or schizophrenia is uncurable by meditation or rituals, simply because the patient has lost control. It's like you 're in a care where the steering wheel has broken and the breaks don't work and some says that everything will be OK if you keep to the right side of the road and heed the traffic lights. erik From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 02:56:31 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:56:31 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Yes, Dante seems to represent things as if it were all so simple. I don't think anyone can just choose to get cured. It takes the recognition that one exhibits problematic behaviour, the will to get a cure and the stamina to sit through that cure. That is not something that one chooses overnight, since in a sense one admits defeat, personally and socially, and knowing going into therapy will take many years of healing and money, some people rather stay in their situation. They rather bear lingering, yet bearable pain, than relatively shorttermed, but big pain. 2010/11/26 Erik Hoogcarspel > Op 26-11-10 04:40, Dante Rosati schreef: > > i don't think most psychopaths want to be cured. if they did, they > > wouldn't be psychopaths, n'est pas? > > > I'm very surprised by the the simplemindedness of Dante here. There are > some 'disorders' that were invented in the eighties, most of them in the > US, just to stimulate the sales of valium and later prozac. Those can be > cured with compassion or knitting shawls or harvesting the Celestine > energies. A real psychopatholgy like bipolarity, MPS, or schizophrenia > is uncurable by meditation or rituals, simply because the patient has > lost control. It's like you 're in a care where the steering wheel has > broken and the breaks don't work and some says that everything will be > OK if you keep to the right side of the road and heed the traffic lights. > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 26 03:31:24 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:31:24 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4CEF8C7C.2060407@xs4all.nl> To mention names and horses: Stephen Fry, a very creative and funny guy, suffers from bipolarity, but he doesn't want to take medication, because the medication would impair him to do his work as a director and comedian. He has made a documentary about bipolarity however and showes there that this very medication offers for some people the only hope to live an acceptable life. I personally knew a young woman who became as mad as a doornail, phoning me up in the middle of the night ordering me to get the army troups from her doorstep. The police had to come to take her to a hospital. I hope they didn't just proscribe her to do more Chenrezig sadhana's. erik Op 26-11-2010 10:56, Stefan Detrez schreef: > Yes, Dante seems to represent things as if it were all so simple. I don't > think anyone can just choose to get cured. It takes the recognition that one > exhibits problematic behaviour, the will to get a cure and the stamina to > sit through that cure. That is not something that one chooses overnight, > since in a sense one admits defeat, personally and socially, and knowing > going into therapy will take many years of healing and money, some people > rather stay in their situation. They rather bear lingering, yet bearable > pain, than relatively shorttermed, but big pain. > > 2010/11/26 Erik Hoogcarspel > >> Op 26-11-10 04:40, Dante Rosati schreef: >>> i don't think most psychopaths want to be cured. if they did, they >>> wouldn't be psychopaths, n'est pas? >>> >> I'm very surprised by the the simplemindedness of Dante here. There are >> some 'disorders' that were invented in the eighties, most of them in the >> US, just to stimulate the sales of valium and later prozac. Those can be >> cured with compassion or knitting shawls or harvesting the Celestine >> energies. A real psychopatholgy like bipolarity, MPS, or schizophrenia >> is uncurable by meditation or rituals, simply because the patient has >> lost control. It's like you 're in a care where the steering wheel has >> broken and the breaks don't work and some says that everything will be >> OK if you keep to the right side of the road and heed the traffic lights. >> >> erik >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 03:32:30 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:32:30 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <10791.10699.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <10791.10699.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I had the intuition that low esteem is not conducive to becoming enlightened. Thank you for your information, Michael. Do I understand it correctly that a sense of a self is necessary before one can intiate therapy? Am I correct to speak in terms of 'an instrumental self', maybe in the same sense as the simile of the raft, a self that should be discarded, but is necessary to achieve a goal? I know Linehan from her work with BPD. You give references to Buddhist based therapies and I am very grateful, but I feel that my question with regard to a 'working self' is still unanswered. 2010/11/26 Michael Essex > Taking your question seriously, there are many researchers/clinicians who > have developed emperically-supported therapies somewhat based on Buddhist > ideas. > To start, you should look at the work of > Marsha Linehan - Dialectical Behavioral Therapy > http://www.behavioraltech.org/resources/whatisdbt.cfm > which specifically addresses severe personality disorders. > > Jon Kabot-Zinn's Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction > has been adapted for treatment of Depression by Zindel Segal > > http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Based-Cognitive-Therapy-Depression-Preventing/dp/1572307064 > > Work is being done at Emory University and Wisconsin regarding Compassion > meditation and therapy. > > http://dalailama.emory.edu/2010/compassion.html > > There are regularly organized conferences on mindfulness and therapy. Read > things by the various presenters. > http://www.facesconferences.com/ > > The idea that having low self esteem or poor self image makes you somehow > closer to enlightenment is a fallacy, well worked out by the 80's in the > many volumes on psychoanalysis and Buddhism. > It was clearly laid out by Jack Engler, as mentioned by one of the previous > respondents, in the first part of the sometimes hard to find > > http://www.amazon.com/Transformations-Consciousness-Ken-Wilber/dp/0394742028 > > > Hi, > > Psychotherapy based on Buddhist understandings of the workings of the mind > look promising from a scientific point of view. However, I have often > wondered how such therapeutic approach works on patients who suffer from > low > self esteem, have no stable sense of a self, don't 'know how they really > are', etc. Wouldn't the notion of anatta be 'nothing new' to them, or the > very problem itself, being that the sense of the absence of a self IS a > contributing factor to the existence of the personality disorder? > > Thank you, > > Stefan > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From c_castell at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 06:22:40 2010 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 05:22:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <477085.2537.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Stefan! I would keep it simple: working self? I don't' think such a thing exist...I guess is not my "level" anyway to make such a difference. We have selfs and we work from that. Cheers, Catalina --- On Fri, 11/26/10, Stefan Detrez wrote: "...I know Linehan from her work with BPD. You give references to Buddhist based therapies and I am very grateful, but I feel that my question with regard to a 'working self' is still unanswered.." From simonjwiles at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 00:27:41 2010 From: simonjwiles at gmail.com (Simon Wiles =?UTF-8?Q?=E9=AD=8F=E5=B8=8C=E6=98=8E?=) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:27:41 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1290756461.2599.14.camel@ddbc-simon-maverick> On Thu, 2010-11-25 at 21:52 +0100, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Ironically, people with low esteem should be nearer to enlightenment > than others, since they have less to work on. Low self-esteem is just as much a conceit (/m?na/) as egotism, in many ways more pernicious. If one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body that is impermanent, painful and subject to change, what else is it than not seeing reality? Or if one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness, what else is it than not seeing reality? If one does not regard himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body, the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness what else is it than seeing reality? SN 22.49 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_III_utf8.html#pts.048) From danterosati at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 08:09:46 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:09:46 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Op 26-11-10 04:40, Dante Rosati schreef: >> i don't think most psychopaths want to be cured. if they did, they >> wouldn't be psychopaths, n'est pas? >> > I'm very surprised by the the simplemindedness of Dante here. There are > some 'disorders' that were invented in the eighties, most of them in the > US, just to stimulate the sales of valium and later prozac. yes, but psychopathology is not one of them. It is a complex state partially characterized thusly: "The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions. Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright." does it sound like this person would want to be cured, or even realize they are in need of "curing"? no. so why exactly are you objecting to my statement about psychopaths not wanting to be cured? From danterosati at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 08:12:32 2010 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:12:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders and anatta In-Reply-To: References: <77F102E3-C46F-43D3-BED5-4F081AA662AB@mind2mind.net> <570FFCD7-1DA9-41B2-B983-B403D5A1AB3E@gmail.com> <4CEF75C9.6040802@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: ive seen people who realized they are causing themselves and others unnecessary pain, and proactively do something about it, these are the ones who generally find some peace. There are others who just want someone else to "fix" them, give them a pill, etc. and then there are those for whom their "illness" is their most precious possession, jealously guarded and cultivated. go figure. On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 4:56 AM, Stefan Detrez wrote: > Yes, Dante seems to represent things as if it were all so simple. I don't > think anyone can just choose to get cured. It takes the recognition that one > exhibits problematic behaviour, the will to get a cure and the stamina to > sit through that cure. That is not something that one chooses overnight, > since in a sense one admits defeat, personally and socially, and knowing > going into therapy will take many years of healing and money, some people > rather stay in their situation. They rather bear lingering, yet bearable > pain, than relatively shorttermed, but big pain. > > 2010/11/26 Erik Hoogcarspel > >> Op 26-11-10 04:40, Dante Rosati schreef: >> > i don't think most psychopaths want to be cured. if they did, they >> > wouldn't be psychopaths, n'est pas? >> > >> I'm very surprised by the the simplemindedness of Dante here. There are >> some 'disorders' that were invented in the eighties, most of them in the >> US, just to stimulate the sales of valium and later prozac. Those can be >> cured with compassion or knitting shawls or harvesting the Celestine >> energies. A real psychopatholgy like bipolarity, MPS, or schizophrenia >> is uncurable by meditation or rituals, simply because the patient has >> lost control. It's like you 're in a care where the steering wheel has >> broken and the breaks don't work and some says that everything will be >> OK if you keep to the right side of the road and heed the traffic lights. >> >> erik >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > > -- > 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion > more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From franz at mind2mind.net Fri Nov 26 11:17:01 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:17:01 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders In-Reply-To: References: <10791.10699.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <661E6094-EED5-4AC3-BE33-1128CCF5A443@mind2mind.net> Stefan et al., > I feel that my question with regard to > a 'working self' is still unanswered. Your question of the "working self" is still unanswered because Buddhists have been failing to fully answer it for 2500 years! But that's just because it's such a good question. One might say it is THE question. One (to me extremely appealing) alternative to the Engler pre- self>>self>>no-self model is Joseph Bobrow's model that we are constantly creating and losing our selves. We might think of it as more a Mahayana model of the self where Engler's model is Theravada. (Though I'm in print characterizing Engler's model as also a Hindu one in some respects.) I've not read Bobrow's new book, but you can find a bit of his model in his shorter writings. All his publications including the book are listed here . Cheers, Franz From bshmr at aol.com Fri Nov 26 17:19:50 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:19:50 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1290817190.4516.44.camel@localhost> Not to move too far from the cracker barrel or bar as the case might be, pyscho-social dysfunctions can be viewed as a mix of learning, physiology, and setting which seem to me also significant in Buddhism (et al) as well as actually substantive. On the other hand, noises about a permanent enduring entity (self) or impediments to change (impermanence) aren't relevant except as excuses. ... For example, others can change their reactions to a 'psychopath' instead of insisting that a 'psychopath' change. ... Whether Buddhist (et al) practices are absolutely safe and absolutely beneficial for absolutely everyone is foolishness, fanciful ideology comparable to that found at TH, FR, FD, & in GZ. And, appears just as repetitive in content and cast. Richard Basham From jkirk at spro.net Fri Nov 26 17:43:36 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:43:36 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders In-Reply-To: <1290817190.4516.44.camel@localhost> References: <1290817190.4516.44.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <8EB78C18929F4176BD62DBE6F5FC628C@OPTIPLEX> TH, FR, FD, & in GZ ??? JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of R B Basham Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 5:20 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Personality disorders Not to move too far from the cracker barrel or bar as the case might be, pyscho-social dysfunctions can be viewed as a mix of learning, physiology, and setting which seem to me also significant in Buddhism (et al) as well as actually substantive. On the other hand, noises about a permanent enduring entity (self) or impediments to change (impermanence) aren't relevant except as excuses. ... For example, others can change their reactions to a 'psychopath' instead of insisting that a 'psychopath' change. ... Whether Buddhist (et al) practices are absolutely safe and absolutely beneficial for absolutely everyone is foolishness, fanciful ideology comparable to that found at TH, FR, FD, & in GZ. And, appears just as repetitive in content and cast. Richard Basham _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 04:39:23 2010 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:39:23 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <477085.2537.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <477085.2537.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, working selves. As already mentioned it takes a self to lose it. It consider it as a 'disposable' self. My observation of anatta as a concept is not entirely clear. At times anatta is specifically aiming at brahmanist notion of an endurable self, whereas at other times I get the impression that the self is understood as the person's personality. Those two concepts are incompatible. I don't know if the Pali canon, with which I am a bit familiar, talks about a 'no self' with regard to the Brahmanical understanding of the self, or a person's personality or both. Or maybe neither. Selflessness doens't seem to be a prominent feature in Buddhist psychology based adaptions. 2010/11/26 Catalina > Hi Stefan! > > I would keep it simple: working self? I don't' think such a thing exist...I > guess is not my "level" anyway to make such a difference. We have selfs and > we work from that. > > Cheers, > > Catalina > > --- On Fri, 11/26/10, Stefan Detrez wrote: > "...I know Linehan from her work with BPD. You give references to Buddhist > based > therapies and I am very grateful, but I feel that my question with regard > to > a 'working self' is still unanswered.." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- 'In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practioners' - Sir Jonathan Miller. From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon Nov 29 07:40:45 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 09:40:45 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/2010 7:39:57 A.M. SA Western Standard Time, stefan.detrez at gmail.com writes: Yes, working selves. As already mentioned it takes a self to lose it. It consider it as a 'disposable' self. My observation of anatta as a concept is not entirely clear. At times anatta is specifically aiming at brahmanist notion of an endurable self, whereas at other times I get the impression that the self is understood as the person's personality. === Understanding anatta conceptually is hard to understand. Experientially it's not so hard. Most people that have gone on a retreat realize it however briefly. During meditation, thoughts and sensations arise and pass away without our being able to discern the "I" that directs them. After sitting meditation we stand up to go into walking meditation. This very complex action happens by itself without an "I" to direct it. I think anyone who plays a sport or a musical instrument experiences the same thing. Serving a tennis ball or playing a violin well involves getting out of the way to let it happen. No "I" anywhere, no matter how hard we look. jack From lemmett at talk21.com Mon Nov 29 08:11:05 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:11:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <608820.70383.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > I think anyone who plays a sport or a musical instrument > experiences the? > same thing. Serving a tennis ball or playing a violin well > involves getting > out? of the way to let it happen. > > No "I" anywhere, no matter how hard we look. > > jack I suppose that the cynical thing to say here is that that's more a case of there being no "I" anywhere when we are not looking for it. For what it's worth I think I see anatta more as a doctrine about transience. Thanks, Luke From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 29 08:29:52 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:29:52 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF3C6F0.40802@xs4all.nl> Op 29-11-10 15:40, Jackhat1 at aol.com schreef: > In a message dated 11/29/2010 7:39:57 A.M. SA Western Standard Time, > stefan.detrez at gmail.com writes: > > Yes, working selves. As already mentioned it takes a self to lose it. It > consider it as a 'disposable' self. My observation of anatta as a concept > is > not entirely clear. At times anatta is specifically aiming at brahmanist > notion of an endurable self, whereas at other times I get the impression > that the self is understood as the person's personality. > === > Understanding anatta conceptually is hard to understand. Experientially > it's not so hard. Most people that have gone on a retreat realize it however > briefly. During meditation, thoughts and sensations arise and pass away > without our being able to discern the "I" that directs them. After sitting > meditation we stand up to go into walking meditation. This very complex action > happens by itself without an "I" to direct it. > > I think anyone who plays a sport or a musical instrument experiences the > same thing. Serving a tennis ball or playing a violin well involves getting > out of the way to let it happen. I don't agree with this. One can feel things which don't exist and the other way around. The word 'I' is a grammatical form and since no substantially existing she or we can be found, why would this be the case with I? Now the Upani?ads talk about an ?tman who is knowable and knowing, Christians would call this a soul. Buddhists generally deny that such an object-subject exists. Kant came with a distinction between an empirical ego that can become sick, sad or happy and a transcendental one. The first one exists conventionally, like the Buddha-l. No matter how hard you look, you cannot tell where it is, but you can talk about it as if it exists somewhere and you can give it a therapy or a birthday present. This is also the one which you can loose (N?g?rjuna would protest: if something really belongs to you, you cannot loose it; if something does not belong to you, you cannot loose it either). The other one exists logically. I may not be aware of it, but the I who writes this answer has to be the same as the one who has read the post in the first place. Kant thought this ego to be continuous and the same and not subject to circumstances. It is somewhat similar to the concept of karma. An interesting question would be whether this transcendental ego exists conventionally or metaphysically. erik From drbob at comcast.net Mon Nov 29 08:53:25 2010 From: drbob at comcast.net (Bob Woolery) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:53:25 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <4CF3C6F0.40802@xs4all.nl> References: <4CF3C6F0.40802@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Possibly relevant here is the Samkhya scheme, as laid out in the Tattva Samasa of Kapila. _Manas_, usually translated mind, is a purely mechanical organizer of sense and action. _Ahamkara_, the I-maker is the relevant part when describing transcendental loss of sense of self. Then there is _buddhi_ the part of the phenomenal contents of a human that is in sync with the flow of a three dimensional continuum into the realm of time. These at least are what I recall of Kitselman's elucidation. Bob Woolery, DC 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 www.stateoftheartchiro.com (707)557 5471 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 7:30 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Op 29-11-10 15:40, Jackhat1 at aol.com schreef: > In a message dated 11/29/2010 7:39:57 A.M. SA Western Standard Time, > stefan.detrez at gmail.com writes: > > Yes, working selves. As already mentioned it takes a self to lose it. It > consider it as a 'disposable' self. My observation of anatta as a concept > is > not entirely clear. At times anatta is specifically aiming at brahmanist > notion of an endurable self, whereas at other times I get the impression > that the self is understood as the person's personality. > === > Understanding anatta conceptually is hard to understand. Experientially > it's not so hard. Most people that have gone on a retreat realize it however > briefly. During meditation, thoughts and sensations arise and pass away > without our being able to discern the "I" that directs them. After sitting > meditation we stand up to go into walking meditation. This very complex action > happens by itself without an "I" to direct it. > > I think anyone who plays a sport or a musical instrument experiences the > same thing. Serving a tennis ball or playing a violin well involves getting > out of the way to let it happen. I don't agree with this. One can feel things which don't exist and the other way around. The word 'I' is a grammatical form and since no substantially existing she or we can be found, why would this be the case with I? Now the Upani?ads talk about an ?tman who is knowable and knowing, Christians would call this a soul. Buddhists generally deny that such an object-subject exists. Kant came with a distinction between an empirical ego that can become sick, sad or happy and a transcendental one. The first one exists conventionally, like the Buddha-l. No matter how hard you look, you cannot tell where it is, but you can talk about it as if it exists somewhere and you can give it a therapy or a birthday present. This is also the one which you can loose (N?g?rjuna would protest: if something really belongs to you, you cannot loose it; if something does not belong to you, you cannot loose it either). The other one exists logically. I may not be aware of it, but the I who writes this answer has to be the same as the one who has read the post in the first place. Kant thought this ego to be continuous and the same and not subject to circumstances. It is somewhat similar to the concept of karma. An interesting question would be whether this transcendental ego exists conventionally or metaphysically. erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon Nov 29 09:22:55 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:22:55 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <2db8f.1fee6b8b.3a252d5f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/2010 11:30:11 A.M. SA Western Standard Time, jehms at xs4all.nl writes: > Understanding anatta conceptually is hard to understand. Experientially > it's not so hard. Most people that have gone on a retreat realize it however > briefly. During meditation, thoughts and sensations arise and pass away > without our being able to discern the "I" that directs them. After sitting > meditation we stand up to go into walking meditation. This very complex action > happens by itself without an "I" to direct it. > > I think anyone who plays a sport or a musical instrument experiences the > same thing. Serving a tennis ball or playing a violin well involves getting > out of the way to let it happen. I don't agree with this. One can feel things which don't exist and the other way around. The word 'I' is a grammatical form and since no substantially existing she or we can be found, why would this be the case with I? Now the Upani?ads talk about an ?tman who is knowable and knowing, Christians would call this a soul. Buddhists generally deny that such an object-subject exists == The purpose of realizing the 3 Marks, anatta, anicca and dukkha, is to transform our relationship with the world. This transformation doesn't depend on words. jack ===== Kant came with a distinction between an empirical ego that can become sick, sad or happy and a transcendental one. The first one exists conventionally, like the Buddha-l. No matter how hard you look, you cannot tell where it is, but you can talk about it as if it exists somewhere and you can give it a therapy or a birthday present. This is also the one which you can loose (N?g?rjuna would protest: if something really belongs to you, you cannot loose it; if something does not belong to you, you cannot loose it either). The other one exists logically. I may not be aware of it, but the I who writes this answer has to be the same as the one who has read the post in the first place. Kant thought this ego to be continuous and the same and not subject to circumstances. It is somewhat similar to the concept of karma. An interesting question would be whether this transcendental ego exists conventionally or metaphysically. erik From C.Rocha at uws.edu.au Mon Nov 29 18:48:35 2010 From: C.Rocha at uws.edu.au (Cristina Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 12:48:35 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism in Australia: Traditions in Change Message-ID: <3239A306F7C8F24693698F633C37BE5402F07266@VALLE.AD.UWS.EDU.AU> Dear Colleagues, We are thrilled to let you know that our edited volume Buddhism in Australia: Traditions in Change (Routledge) is coming out this week. Please find more information below. Warm wishes, Cristina Rocha & Michelle Barker Buddhism in Australia Traditions in Change Edited by Cristina Rocha , Michelle Barker ? Price: ?80.00 ? Binding/Format: Hardback ? ISBN: 978-0-415-56818-0 ? Publish Date: 7th December 2010 ? Imprint: Routledge ? Pages: 174 pages Series: Routledge Critical Studies in Buddhism Description The number of Buddhists in Australia has grown dramatically in recent years. In 2006, Buddhists accounted for 2.1 per cent of Australia's population, almost doubling the 1996 figures, and making it the fastest growing religion in the country. This book analyses the arrival and localisation of Buddhism in Australia in the context of the globalisation of Buddhism. Australia's close geographical proximity to Asia has encouraged an intense flow of people, ideas, practices and commodities from its neighbouring countries, while at the same time allowing the development of the religion to be somewhat different to its growth in other Western countries. The book seeks to explore the Buddhist experience in Australia, looking at the similarities and particularities of this experience in relation to other Western countries. The inception of Buddhism in Australia is investigated, and a voice is provided to people on the ground who have been fundamental in making this process possible. For the first time, academic analysis and practitioners' experience are juxtaposed to show the adaptations and challenges of Buddhism in Australia from above and below. This book is a unique and valuable contribution to the study of Buddhism in the West, globalization of religion, and studies in Asian Religion. Contents Preface Martin Baumann 1. Introduction Cristina Rocha and Michelle Barker 2. Part 1: Academic A) Localising Buddhism in Australia 2. The Emergence of Secular Insight Practice in Australia David Bubna-Litic and Winton Higgins 3. Zen in Australia: Tradition, Challenges and Innovation Leesa Davis 4. Green Tara in Australia: Reassesing the Relationship between Gender, Religion and Power Relations Ruth Fitzpatrick B) Buddhist Impacts on Land and Culture 5. Buddhifying Australia: Multicultural Capital and Buddhist Material Culture in Rural Victoria Sally McAra 6. Locating a Buddhist Temple in Wollongong, New South Wales Gordon Waitt 7. Sydney, a City Growing Within: The Establishment of Buddhist Centres in Western Sydney John Skennar 8. Adaptation and Continuity in Cambodian Buddhist Temples: Implications for Service Delivery and Community Development Shiva Vasi 3. Part 2: The Buddhist Community A) Adaptations and Challenges 9. Transformations of Insight Patrick Kearney 10. Soka Gakkai: Dialogue as the transformative expression of Buddhist Humanism Elizabeth Bowen 11. Ordaining Women in Australia Nagasuri 12. The Journey of a Lay Female Zen Teacher: 'On a Withered Tree a Flower Blooms' Subhana Barzaghi 13. Changes and Challenges to Vietnamese Buddhism in Australia Tuong Quang Luu B) Buddhism in Action Down Under 14. Educating for Wisdom and Compassion Mind Patricia Sherwood 15. Venerable Robina Courtin: An Unconventional Buddhist? Anna Halafoff 16. A Life of High Adventure: Integrating the Monk and Pastor Thich Thong Phap 17. The Buddhist Council of Victoria and the Challenges of Recognising Buddhism as a Religion in Australia Diana Cousens 18. Challenges to Teaching Buddhism in Contemporary Society Choedak Rinpoche The number of Buddhists in Australia has grown dramatically in recent years. In 2006, Buddhists accounted for 2.1 per cent of Australia's population, almost doubling the 1996 figures, and making it the fastest growing religion in the country. This book analyses the arrival and localisation of Buddhism in Australia in the context of the globalisation of Buddhism. Australia's close geographical proximity to Asia has encouraged an intense flow of people, ideas, practices and commodities from its neighbouring countries, while at the same time allowing the development of the religion to be somewhat different to its growth in other Western countries. The book seeks to explore the Buddhist experience in Australia, looking at the similarities and particularities of this experience in relation to other Western countries. The inception of Buddhism in Australia is investigated, and a voice is provided to people on the ground who have been fundamental in making this process possible. For the first time, academic analysis and practitioners' experience are juxtaposed to show the adaptations and challenges of Buddhism in Australia from above and below. This book is a unique and valuable contribution to the study of Buddhism in the West, globalization of religion, and studies in Asian Religion. Dr. Cristina Rocha School of Humanities and Languages University of Western Sydney Editor of (with Michelle Barker) Buddhism in Australia: Traditions in Change, Routledge, 2010 and author of Zen in Brazil: The Quest for Cosmopolitan Modernity, Hawaii University Press, 2006. Managing Editor: Journal of Global Buddhism http://www.uws.edu.au/centre_for_cultural_research/ccr/people/researchers/dr_cristina_rocha From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Tue Nov 30 01:29:00 2010 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:29:00 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Chan-Tibet connection In-Reply-To: References: <4CED5B9A.3030301@arcor.de> Message-ID: <4CF4B5CC.8020205@arcor.de> Am 25.11.2010 18:50, schrieb Richard Nance: > > As a place to start re: your Chan and Tibet question, some of the > essays -- and bibliographic information -- collected here may be > useful (unfortunately, I don't have the book ready to hand at the > moment, so I can't be more specific than this): Dear Richard, thank you for your helpful references. Now I got "Buddhism between Tibet & China", edited by Matthew Kapstein. Kapstein shows convincingly in this volume how interesting and illustrative interdisciplinary Buddhist studies can be. My questions about the Tibetan-Chan movement of the eigth-ninth centuries are not dealt with, but there is a very interesting essay about Gankar Rinpoche in the 1930s to 1950s (and his disciples C.C. Chang and Charles Luk) by Carmen Meinert, research fellow at the University of Hamburg/Germany. And I learned, that Carmen Meinert has widely published on the relationship between Chinese Chan and Tibetan Buddhism. So after reading some interesting essays in Kapsteins book I want to look for Meinerts publications. Thank you again and with best wishes, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From lemmett at talk21.com Tue Nov 30 10:58:19 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:58:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? In-Reply-To: <608820.70383.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <920595.99748.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hello there, I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct experience, knowing something without the intellect? I think I am used to altered states of consciousness like seeing things that aren't there or delusional conviction but I don't know that I can find room for much more. Thank you, Luke From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 30 11:15:03 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:15:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? In-Reply-To: <920595.99748.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <608820.70383.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <920595.99748.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <829D46409D2841558F3B8F6F5681FD30@OPTIPLEX> Not sure if this might be 'an' example of direct experience, but it strikes me that being in an accident is one example of knowing minus intellectual overlay or activity/comment. When I slipped on ice, fell and broke an arm, I instantly knew/felt/experienced that I fell and was hurt, but I wasn't "thinking about" it until immediately after it happened. Joanna Hello there, I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct experience, knowing something without the intellect? I think I am used to altered states of consciousness like seeing things that aren't there or delusional conviction but I don't know that I can find room for much more. Thank you, Luke _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From lemmett at talk21.com Tue Nov 30 11:30:25 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:30:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? In-Reply-To: <829D46409D2841558F3B8F6F5681FD30@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <255094.13570.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Sort of: I fall therefore I am on the floor? --- On Tue, 30/11/10, JKirkpatrick wrote: > From: JKirkpatrick > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? > To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" > Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 18:15 > > Not sure if this might be 'an' example of direct > experience, but > it strikes me that being in an accident is one example of > knowing > minus intellectual overlay or activity/comment.? > When I slipped on ice, fell and broke an arm, I instantly > knew/felt/experienced that I fell and was hurt, but I > wasn't > "thinking about" it until immediately after it happened. > Joanna > > > Hello there, > > I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct > experience, > knowing something without the intellect? I think I am used > to > altered states of consciousness like seeing things that > aren't > there or delusional conviction but I don't know that I can > find > room for much more. > > Thank you, > > Luke > > > ? ? ? > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From Jackhat1 at aol.com Tue Nov 30 11:35:32 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:35:32 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? Message-ID: <87081.28cc266f.3a269df4@aol.com> = In a message dated 11/30/2010 2:15:15 P.M. SA Western Standard Time, jkirk at spro.net writes: Not sure if this might be 'an' example of direct experience, but it strikes me that being in an accident is one example of knowing minus intellectual overlay or activity/comment. When I slipped on ice, fell and broke an arm, I instantly knew/felt/experienced that I fell and was hurt, but I wasn't "thinking about" it until immediately after it happened. Joanna Hello there, I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct experience, knowing something without the intellect? I think I am used to altered states of consciousness like seeing things that aren't there or delusional conviction but I don't know that I can find room for much more === I think we can also have direct experience of thoughts and emotions. jack From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Tue Nov 30 11:59:42 2010 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:59:42 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? References: <87081.28cc266f.3a269df4@aol.com> Message-ID: see alfred korzybski (general semantics) the structural differential. if you're serious. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? > = > > > In a message dated 11/30/2010 2:15:15 P.M. SA Western Standard Time, > jkirk at spro.net writes: > > Not sure if this might be 'an' example of direct experience, but > it strikes me that being in an accident is one example of knowing > minus intellectual overlay or activity/comment. > When I slipped on ice, fell and broke an arm, I instantly > knew/felt/experienced that I fell and was hurt, but I wasn't > "thinking about" it until immediately after it happened. > Joanna > > > Hello there, > > I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct experience, > knowing something without the intellect? I think I am used to > altered states of consciousness like seeing things that aren't > there or delusional conviction but I don't know that I can find > room for much more > === > > > I think we can also have direct experience of thoughts and emotions. > > jack > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 30 17:49:01 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:49:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? In-Reply-To: <255094.13570.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <829D46409D2841558F3B8F6F5681FD30@OPTIPLEX> <255094.13570.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No--that would be logic--hence intellectual. .......falling.. hurting.. head hits cement... arm can't move...... Then intellect takes over --how do I getup? can I get my arm out of the way? etc. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of lemmett at talk21.com Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:30 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? Sort of: I fall therefore I am on the floor? --- On Tue, 30/11/10, JKirkpatrick wrote: > From: JKirkpatrick > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? > To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" > Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 18:15 > > Not sure if this might be 'an' example of direct experience, but it > strikes me that being in an accident is one example of knowing minus > intellectual overlay or activity/comment. > When I slipped on ice, fell and broke an arm, I instantly > knew/felt/experienced that I fell and was hurt, but I wasn't "thinking > about" it until immediately after it happened. > Joanna > > > Hello there, > > I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct experience, knowing > something without the intellect? I think I am used to altered states > of consciousness like seeing things that aren't there or delusional > conviction but I don't know that I can find room for much more. > > Thank you, > > Luke > > > ? ? ? > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Nov 30 17:50:45 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 17:50:45 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? In-Reply-To: References: <87081.28cc266f.3a269df4@aol.com> Message-ID: Libraries being distant, why don't you supply a short take on what his take on it is? -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Gad Horowitz Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:00 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? see alfred korzybski (general semantics) the structural differential. if you're serious. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] What is direct experience? > = > > > In a message dated 11/30/2010 2:15:15 P.M. SA Western Standard Time, > jkirk at spro.net writes: > > Not sure if this might be 'an' example of direct experience, but > it strikes me that being in an accident is one example of knowing > minus intellectual overlay or activity/comment. > When I slipped on ice, fell and broke an arm, I instantly > knew/felt/experienced that I fell and was hurt, but I wasn't > "thinking about" it until immediately after it happened. > Joanna > > > Hello there, > > I hope it's not too feeble to ask - what is direct experience, > knowing something without the intellect? I think I am used to > altered states of consciousness like seeing things that aren't > there or delusional conviction but I don't know that I can find > room for much more > === > > > I think we can also have direct experience of thoughts and emotions. > > jack > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l