From bshmr at aol.com Fri Apr 1 08:50:57 2011 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 08:50:57 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Teach English at a Thai Temple? Message-ID: <1301669457.13555.3.camel@aims110> Diversion anyone? Alternative summer school or vacation? Richard Basham ** The monks and I: Teaching and learning in Thailand By Richard S. Ehrlich, CNNGo.com, 31 March, 2011 Bangkok, Thailand -- Foreigners are being invited to teach English to Buddhist monks at two temples in Thailand -- at a cost of hundreds of dollars. And staff at one temple claim that many visiting instructors "experienced nirvana temporarily" during meditation sessions. The temples, Wat Luang Phor Sodh in Ratchaburi and Wat Doi Saket in Chiang Mai, run slightly different programs, but essentially offer the chance to learn about Thai culture while teaching English. Foreign teachers have to pay for their own lodging, food and other expenses, as well as their airfare to and from Thailand. And though all of the saffron-robed monk students are male, the temples welcome both men and women teachers. "All English speakers are welcomed," said Dr. Barton "Bart" Yanathiro, a 75-year-old American Buddhist who helps run the classes in Ratchaburi, about two hours southwest from Bangkok by bus. ... http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=52,10025,0,0,1,0 From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Apr 1 14:56:15 2011 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 15:56:15 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Teach English at a Thai Temple? References: <1301669457.13555.3.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <00c501cbf0af$3e25f890$6502a8c0@Dan> > Foreign teachers have to pay for their own lodging, food and other > expenses, as well as their airfare to and from Thailand. A reminder that dana is a one-way street. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Apr 1 16:12:00 2011 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 16:12:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Summer seminar on Buddhism at Bodhi Manda Zen Center Message-ID: <851DF2DC-66C8-4513-BEC8-7823B8EAC1E6@unm.edu> The Department of Philosophy at the University of New Mexico and Rinzai-ji are once again co-hosting a Summer Seminar in Buddhism. The Summer Seminar on Buddhism is an intensive two-week course on the history and philosophy of Buddhism that combines academic and practical perspectives. The seminar is held in residence at the Bodhi Manda Zen Center in the Jemez Mountains, about an hour northwest of Albuquerque, New Mexico. The dates of this year's seminar are June 5-17. The application deadline is May 14, 2011. This summer's presenters will be Sarah Shaw of Wolfson College, Oxford University and John Maraldo, distinguished professor emeritus from the University of South Florida. Professor Shaw will be lecturing on Therav?da meditation and presenting stories from the commentaries to the Dhammapada. Professor Maraldo will be lecturing on figures from the Ky?to school of philosophy. Details about registration and the lecturers and what one can expect a typical day at the seminars to be like can all be found at http://www.summerseminar.org/ I am this year's contact person; my contact information is found below. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy MSC03 2140 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 7 15:20:14 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 15:20:14 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] ISKON spinoffs-America: Shadow Temple Message-ID: <44D6D5E6B9E843148C1AE1405CD92C3F@OPTIPLEX> Since the mantra Om Mane Padme Hum is mentioned in this piece, I thought it OK to post here, in case some listfolk might enjoy knowing about this new riff on the ancient east: http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/missoula/prince-rama/Content? oid=1423550 ISKON spinoffs move to pop musical entertainment: Beginning with the first track of Shadow Temple, Brooklyn's Prince Rama produces much sound and little music. "Om Mane Padme Hum" is a vast noise chamber of swirling drums, reverb-drenched yelps and flanger echoes, relentlessly building over four minutes to the awesome climax that is "Om Namo Shivaya," a vast noise chamber of swirling drums, reverb-drenched etc. and etc. There is also chanting. [more in article] A concluding remark: "Shadow Temple turns familiar with exhausting speed." Reminds me also of some Tibetan Buddhist group some kilometers away from Missoula, MT that plans on blanketing their pristine mountain desert land with 10,000 Buddha images. Thing is the Buddha never did anything like that, nor even did his followers for a few centuries--but who cares about what he and they did? Joanna K. From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Thu Apr 7 20:30:29 2011 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 22:30:29 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] ISKON spinoffs-America: Shadow Temple In-Reply-To: <44D6D5E6B9E843148C1AE1405CD92C3F@OPTIPLEX> References: <44D6D5E6B9E843148C1AE1405CD92C3F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <471BFD48-CA67-41CF-A76C-0162B859DF86@wheelwrightassoc.com> They make cool targets. Timothy Smith Office/Mobile 831.624.8138 Fax 831.659-5112 www.wheelwrightassoc.co On Apr 7, 2011, at 5:20 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Reminds me also of some Tibetan Buddhist group some kilometers > away from Missoula, MT that plans on blanketing their pristine > mountain desert land with 10,000 Buddha images. Thing is the > Buddha never did anything like that, nor even did his followers > for a few centuries--but who cares about what he and they did? > > Joanna K. > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From slachs at att.net Fri Apr 8 08:40:07 2011 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:40:07 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> Dear Colleagues, I would like to announce my latest paper titled "When the Saints Go Marching In: Modern Day Zen Hagiography." The paper analyzes two articles that recently appeared in Tricycle: A Buddhist Review magazine. The article "The Wanderer" is an excerpt from the book, "Footprints in the Snow: The Autobiography of a Chinese Buddhist Monk" by Chan master Sheng Yen who died February 3, 2009, while "down east roshi" is a new biography about Walter Nowick who spent 17 years in Japan and taught Zen in Maine as leader of the group Moon Spring Hermitage. The article looks at the constructed nature of these two contemporary biographies, and the role they play in generating and maintaining the view of the selfless, wise, often iconoclastic and legitimate Chan master/roshi. The paper highlights the dynamics of a religious tradition and especially how the visions of the perfected Chan master/roshi of the past are perpetuated into the present through the very same mechanism that originally created them, that is, written hagiography. The paper is available at: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/When_the_Saints_Go_Marching_Marching_In.pdf All the best, Stuart From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 11 07:40:44 2011 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:40:44 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness Message-ID: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> Denizens, there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial trade, think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist words and concepts. See f.i. http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk-trajecten&Itemid=69 and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The new commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and business because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital with spiritual values. The opponents claim that the only reason why Buddha himself doesn't turn around and around in his grave is that he has been cremated. My argument that this practice is very unusual in traditional Buddhist countries has not made much weight because people feel free to do as they please thinking they are inventing Buddhism anew. I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but worse is that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in general. My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and reactions of Buddhist teachers? erik From jkirk at spro.net Mon Apr 11 09:56:12 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:56:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> Hmmmmm--"Show your true colors" seems to be written in Dinglish--a mix of Dutch and English--how contemporary--it's been happening in south Asia for years already. I'm not up on Dutch, but I seem to notice that they are talking about insight-- Inzicht --is that right? This insight meditation thing invaded biz management here at least a decade ago if not longer. Courses were offered to improve sales and interaction with customers and employees, etc. I haven't seen if any roshis or other Buddhist leader types spoke about it. The topic surfaced on this list long time ago. http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php Yes--this one is typical of what has been going on here in the USA for several years. I always viewed this trend as a corruption of Buddhist practice and teachings, another example of how capitalisim commodifies anything, and tries to commodify everything. Cheers, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 7:41 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness Denizens, there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial trade, think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist words and concepts. See f.i. http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti cle&id=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk- trajecten&Itemid=69 and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The new commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and business because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital with spiritual values. The opponents claim that the only reason why Buddha himself doesn't turn around and around in his grave is that he has been cremated. My argument that this practice is very unusual in traditional Buddhist countries has not made much weight because people feel free to do as they please thinking they are inventing Buddhism anew. I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but worse is that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in general. My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and reactions of Buddhist teachers? erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon Apr 11 10:36:15 2011 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:36:15 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Well hell, I guess I'll jump in here. If Buddhist practice helps folks with relationships (with self/others) by increasing insight, then it can said to be useful for business. One might (though incorrectly I believe) make the claim that it will boost sales, build the bottom line, etc., but there is certainly no conclusive evidence that specifically Buddhist teachings have any beneficial effect in business. What one can say, however, is that lack of self awareness and poor relationship skills don't make for optimum business results, and that improvement in these areas can contribute to enhanced communication at both interpersonal and organizational levels. Without specifically using 'Buddhism' (American businesses shy away from 'religious' notions in the workplace) as a discriptor, I certainly have used the bodhisattva principles as an approach to developing more self- aware leadership. I've also had my ass handed to me by more than one group who have taken offense at the mention of any spiritual concept that does not include Jesus himself. I usually turn the other cheek. This 'Colours' thing looks like a typical 'typing' scheme which, if used correctly, can help open up folks to a more non-judgemental way of viewing their own and other's behavioral foibles. I doubt that it has any more buddhist content than Meyer-Briggs or the Enneagram intrinsically do. On the other hand, anything that may help relax our fixations on ourselves and others might be leaning into impermanence. Skillful means, perhaps? T Timothy Smith Office/Mobile 831.624.8138 Fax 831.659-5112 www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:56 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > Hmmmmm--"Show your true colors" seems to be written in > Dinglish--a mix of Dutch and English--how contemporary--it's been > happening in south Asia for years already. > > I'm not up on Dutch, but I seem to notice that they are talking > about insight-- Inzicht --is that right? > This insight meditation thing invaded biz management here at > least a decade ago if not longer. > Courses were offered to improve sales and interaction with > customers and employees, etc. > I haven't seen if any roshis or other Buddhist leader types spoke > about it. The topic surfaced on this list long time ago. > http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php Yes--this one is typical > of what has been going on here in the USA for several years. > > I always viewed this trend as a corruption of Buddhist practice > and teachings, another example of how capitalisim commodifies > anything, and tries to commodify everything. > > Cheers, Joanna > > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik > Hoogcarspel > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 7:41 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness > > Denizens, > > there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new > Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial > trade, think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist > words and concepts. See f.i. > http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti > cle&id=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk- > trajecten&Itemid=69 > and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . > At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The > new commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and > business because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital > with spiritual values. The opponents claim that the only reason > why Buddha himself doesn't turn around and around in his grave is > that he has been cremated. My argument that this practice is very > unusual in traditional Buddhist countries has not made much > weight because people feel free to do as they please thinking > they are inventing Buddhism anew. > I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but > worse is that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in > general. > My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and > reactions of Buddhist teachers? > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Mon Apr 11 11:54:58 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:54:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl><648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi Tim, I don't disagree with your points here. Any improvements in human relations are to be admired and encouraged. Also, it's unknown to me to what extent biz management programs used the term Buddhist or Buddhism to describe their offerings. Maybe they were few. Best, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Smith Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:36 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] buddhisness Well hell, I guess I'll jump in here. If Buddhist practice helps folks with relationships (with self/others) by increasing insight, then it can said to be useful for business. One might (though incorrectly I believe) make the claim that it will boost sales, build the bottom line, etc., but there is certainly no conclusive evidence that specifically Buddhist teachings have any beneficial effect in business. What one can say, however, is that lack of self awareness and poor relationship skills don't make for optimum business results, and that improvement in these areas can contribute to enhanced communication at both interpersonal and organizational levels. Without specifically using 'Buddhism' (American businesses shy away from 'religious' notions in the workplace) as a discriptor, I certainly have used the bodhisattva principles as an approach to developing more self- aware leadership. I've also had my ass handed to me by more than one group who have taken offense at the mention of any spiritual concept that does not include Jesus himself. I usually turn the other cheek. This 'Colours' thing looks like a typical 'typing' scheme which, if used correctly, can help open up folks to a more non-judgemental way of viewing their own and other's behavioral foibles. I doubt that it has any more buddhist content than Meyer-Briggs or the Enneagram intrinsically do. On the other hand, anything that may help relax our fixations on ourselves and others might be leaning into impermanence. Skillful means, perhaps? T Timothy Smith Office/Mobile 831.624.8138 Fax 831.659-5112 www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:56 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > Hmmmmm--"Show your true colors" seems to be written in Dinglish--a mix > of Dutch and English--how contemporary--it's been happening in south > Asia for years already. > > I'm not up on Dutch, but I seem to notice that they are talking about > insight-- Inzicht --is that right? > This insight meditation thing invaded biz management here at least a > decade ago if not longer. > Courses were offered to improve sales and interaction with customers > and employees, etc. > I haven't seen if any roshis or other Buddhist leader types spoke > about it. The topic surfaced on this list long time ago. > http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php Yes--this one is typical of > what has been going on here in the USA for several years. > > I always viewed this trend as a corruption of Buddhist practice and > teachings, another example of how capitalisim commodifies anything, > and tries to commodify everything. > > Cheers, Joanna > > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik > Hoogcarspel > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 7:41 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness > > Denizens, > > there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new > Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial trade, > think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist words and > concepts. See f.i. > http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti > cle&id=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk- > trajecten&Itemid=69 > and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . > At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The new > commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and business > because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital with spiritual > values. The opponents claim that the only reason why Buddha himself > doesn't turn around and around in his grave is that he has been > cremated. My argument that this practice is very unusual in > traditional Buddhist countries has not made much weight because people > feel free to do as they please thinking they are inventing Buddhism > anew. > I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but worse > is that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in general. > My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and reactions > of Buddhist teachers? > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 12 13:01:32 2011 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:01:32 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Herman Zelders Message-ID: <4DA4A18C.5050406@xs4all.nl> Dear members of the list, it is my duty to inform you that Herman Zelders, also member of the list, died last Sunday. He suffered from a lung condition during recent years and was caught by a malignant virus. He died peacefully. I'll remember him as a very erudite buddhist and above all as a very good friend. erik From aryacitta at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 13:41:24 2011 From: aryacitta at hotmail.com (David Living) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:41:24 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha & Business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well there is Right Livelihood. Maybe this could be seen as a modern interpretation. I'd have thought as long as it avoids greed hatred and delusion it will be ok! Making money isn't automatically wrong. Its only the monks who are not encouraged to have anything to do with money. Lay Buddhists like me can make as much as they want! Which I hasten to add is not very much in the grand scale of things. Aryacitta/Dave Living > Denizens, > > there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new > Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial trade, > think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist words and > concepts. See f.i. > http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk-trajecten&Itemid=69 > and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . > At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The new > commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and business > because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital with spiritual > values. The opponents claim that the only reason why Buddha himself > doesn't turn around and around in his grave is that he has been > cremated. My argument that this practice is very unusual in traditional > Buddhist countries has not made much weight because people feel free to > do as they please thinking they are inventing Buddhism anew. > I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but worse is > that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in general. > My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and reactions of > Buddhist teachers? > > erik From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Apr 12 14:09:45 2011 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:09:45 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Herman Zelders In-Reply-To: <4DA4A18C.5050406@xs4all.nl> References: <4DA4A18C.5050406@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <0859CB6E-70E3-48D6-B248-20D7EF568B9E@mind2mind.net> Thank you, Erik. I am sad to learn of his passing. He was a valued contributor here and his last contributions to H-Buddhism were on tukdam and the transition from life to death. I shall recite the Enmei Jikku Kannon Gyo for him as he makes that transition himself. Franz From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 12 14:24:28 2011 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:24:28 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha & Business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA4B4FC.4050807@xs4all.nl> My doubts are more in the area of right speech. There's whole lot of misleading and false pretensions going on. See http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article826475.ece erik Op 12-04-11 21:41, David Living schreef: > Well there is Right Livelihood. > > Maybe this could be seen as a modern interpretation. I'd have thought as long as it avoids greed hatred and delusion it will be ok! Making money isn't automatically wrong. Its only the monks who are not encouraged to have anything to do with money. Lay Buddhists like me can make as much as they want! Which I hasten to add is not very much in the grand scale of things. > > Aryacitta/Dave Living > > >> Denizens, >> >> there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new >> Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial trade, >> think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist words and >> concepts. See f.i. >> http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk-trajecten&Itemid=69 >> and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . >> At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The new >> commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and business >> because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital with spiritual >> values. The opponents claim that the only reason why Buddha himself >> doesn't turn around and around in his grave is that he has been >> cremated. My argument that this practice is very unusual in traditional >> Buddhist countries has not made much weight because people feel free to >> do as they please thinking they are inventing Buddhism anew. >> I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but worse is >> that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in general. >> My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and reactions of >> Buddhist teachers? >> >> erik > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Apr 12 14:28:40 2011 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:28:40 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4D428C7F-69C2-4074-8E53-51FB9ABA1258@mind2mind.net> Hello All, Being the author of a book applying Buddhist principles to business, I thank Timothy Smith and David Living for their defenses of this sort of mash-up. I have absolutely no problem (obviously, if I've written a book on it) putting Buddha to work. My co-author (a business consultant) and I were consistently impressed by the harmony of best practices in the sangha and the modern workplace. Articulating and operationalizing this harmony, deepening it through bringing in further Buddhist insights, seems a very good thing to me. But Joanna warned, > I always viewed this trend as a corruption of Buddhist practice > and teachings, another example of how capitalisim commodifies > anything, and tries to commodify everything. I agree with this as well. When Buddhist practices reshape business practices I am sanguine. But when business practices reshape Buddhist practices I am intensely disturbed. This is why I come down so hard on (the now disgraced) Genpo Roshi's Big Mind enterprise, especially in its 5-5-50 guise. That is a example of, at least to me, blatant commodification of Buddhism, exactly what Joanna warns against. When Buddhism is delivered to the people via the mechanisms of commodification, it loses its ability to critique the structures of capitalism. Very unskillful. But, to be candid, I've had my share of critics at author events taking me to task for what they see as my own contribution to commodifying the Buddhadharma. They are not entirely wrong. Franz From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Tue Apr 12 14:44:48 2011 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:44:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: <4D428C7F-69C2-4074-8E53-51FB9ABA1258@mind2mind.net> References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> <4D428C7F-69C2-4074-8E53-51FB9ABA1258@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: Franz wrote > > But Joanna warned, > >> I always viewed this trend as a corruption of Buddhist practice >> and teachings, another example of how capitalisim commodifies >> anything, and tries to commodify everything. > > I agree with this as well. When Buddhist practices reshape business > practices I am sanguine. But when business practices reshape Buddhist > practices I am intensely disturbed. This is why I come down so hard on > (the now disgraced) Genpo Roshi's Big Mind enterprise, especially in > its 5-5-50 guise. That is a example of, at least to me, blatant > commodification of Buddhism, exactly what Joanna warns against. When > Buddhism is delivered to the people via the mechanisms of > commodification, it loses its ability to critique the structures of > capitalism. Very unskillful. There are, at the very least, a number of areas where the buddhist concerns with desire/aversion/ignorance are at odds with what I call 'unfettered capitalism'. Having said that, capitalism, like any other 'ism' is a human enterprise and can benefit from a wise and reflective critique of its methods, beliefs and outcomes. I think this is where building awareness comes in. Its the first step in understanding how the excesses of this (or any system) have negative consequences whether they be individual, organizational or systemic in character. Gotta start somewhere. > > But, to be candid, I've had my share of critics at author events > taking me to task for what they see as my own contribution to > commodifying the Buddhadharma. They are not entirely wrong. > > Franz Damned if you do, damned if you don't eh Franz....LOL. BTW, I'd love to see your book, can you point me toward it? Tks, Tim Timothy Smith Office/Mobile 831.624.8138 Fax 831.659-5112 www.wheelwrightassoc.com From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Apr 12 15:19:15 2011 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:19:15 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> <4D428C7F-69C2-4074-8E53-51FB9ABA1258@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: Dear All, Thanks, Tim, for the supportive response. You wrote, "Gotta start somewhere." I think that really expresses it. For me, one of the chief virtues of Buddhism is that the tradition has grown rich enough to meet people where they are. To some folks it provides three year silent retreats. For others, bathroom books. Some Buddhists are qualified to lead those retreats. I, by contrast, am qualified to write the bathroom books. And so I do. They don't teach high level practice, but they do attempt to add some wisdom and compassion to contexts and moments that might otherwise lack them. I'm grateful to be a shallow spot in a deep tradition. Nothin' wrong with that. (Or so I think.) Since you asked, here's a tinyurl for my Amazon author page: Cheers, Franz From jkirk at spro.net Tue Apr 12 16:55:42 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:55:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha & Business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good points, Aryacitta. However, I wasn't on about the making of money but the transformation of everything into commodities-- the imposition of a totalistic marketplace. Plus, what I see as another concern, which is the partition of things into saleabilities. Isn't meditation part of a larger picture? Isn't it integrated into a way of life that is more beneficial to humans than making money? OK you will say, tell that to he homeless, the jobless, the underemployed............ Joanna ---------------------------- Well there is Right Livelihood. Maybe this could be seen as a modern interpretation. I'd have thought as long as it avoids greed hatred and delusion it will be ok! Making money isn't automatically wrong. Its only the monks who are not encouraged to have anything to do with money. Lay Buddhists like me can make as much as they want! Which I hasten to add is not very much in the grand scale of things. Aryacitta/Dave Living > Denizens, > > there are strange things happening in the Low Countries. Some new > Buddhists in the Netherlands who are in some kind of commercial trade, > think they can enhance their success by (ab)using Buddhist words and > concepts. See f.i. > http://www.boeddhisness.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti cle&i > d=133:show-your-true-colour&catid=49:in-company-en-maatwerk-traje cten& > Itemid=69 and http://www.karmanomics.com/index1.php . > At the moment there's a discussion going on on the subject. The new > commercial Buddhists claim that it is OK to mix Buddhism and business > because it is a way to penetrate the field of capital with spiritual > values. The opponents claim that the only reason why Buddha himself > doesn't turn around and around in his grave is that he has been > cremated. My argument that this practice is very unusual in > traditional Buddhist countries has not made much weight because people > feel free to do as they please thinking they are inventing Buddhism anew. > I personally think these people make a fool of themselves, but worse > is that it may corrupt the reputation of Buddhism in general. > My question is: do any of you remember cases like this and reactions > of Buddhist teachers? > > erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Apr 12 17:41:01 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:41:01 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl><648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX><4D428C7F-69C2-4074-8E53-51FB9ABA1258@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <2557A426A17A4DDC869FF50D3A51B347@OPTIPLEX> Dear Franz Your book and Tim's work must have laid the conditions for employee insights into what's missing when they have to work for the psychopaths described in the article sent by Eric. When I was employed, there was one who was the alpha male of my department, the boss (even though my school had no official hierarchy. People make hirarchies anyway.) People couldn't figure out why he was everything that Hare described. The rest of the males in this department just sort of bent to his cane, as it were, taking advantage where they could get it. I never did, and was early on dubbed by alpha male the trouble-maker. This being my first job, I had no training--it was not even available back then-- that would have enabled me and the rest of us to head the perp off at the pass. So given this discussion, Tim, Franz and Hare have been doing a lot of good and bestowing benefits on what has been for ages unethical, sadistic workplaces. As Freud said: our job is to love and work. They are equal. The work part got lost a long time ago, methinks. (Maybe the love part did too but that is another topic.) Yayyyy to better happier work places. Best, Joanna ------------------- Dear All, Thanks, Tim, for the supportive response. You wrote, "Gotta start somewhere." I think that really expresses it. For me, one of the chief virtues of Buddhism is that the tradition has grown rich enough to meet people where they are. To some folks it provides three year silent retreats. For others, bathroom books. Some Buddhists are qualified to lead those retreats. I, by contrast, am qualified to write the bathroom books. And so I do. They don't teach high level practice, but they do attempt to add some wisdom and compassion to contexts and moments that might otherwise lack them. I'm grateful to be a shallow spot in a deep tradition. Nothin' wrong with that. (Or so I think.) Since you asked, here's a tinyurl for my Amazon author page: Cheers, Franz _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From buddhaworld at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 16:17:35 2011 From: buddhaworld at gmail.com (Scott A. Mitchell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:17:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhisness In-Reply-To: References: <4DA304DC.7040603@xs4all.nl> <648FDD82652449CBAC3801184123E656@OPTIPLEX> <4D428C7F-69C2-4074-8E53-51FB9ABA1258@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <23288601-20FA-4055-98DA-D49ABFF6F94E@gmail.com> Hello all, The phrase "long-time listener, first-time caller" jumps to mind, so, here goes. I've greatly enjoyed the discussion so far on this issue as it's one I think about not too infrequently. I'd like to point our collective attention to the work of Jeremy Carrette and Richard King in their book "Selling Spirituality" for a critique of religion-as-commodity. I think they have some good points (can't say I agree with everything, but that's sort of always true, no?), one of which is the following: is it possible for a commodity within the capitalist system to actually critique the system of which it is a part? That is, if Buddhism becomes merely a commodity within the capitalist marketplace, will it be able to effectively critique capitalism? I'm personally on the fence on that one -- leaving aside the other question of whether or not one necessarily needs to critique the capitalist enterprise in the first place. But I think this points to the misgivings Franz and Joanna express. At any rate. Thanks for the discussion. Cheers, Scott ____________________________________ Scott A. Mitchell Institute of Buddhist Studies Editorial Committee, Pacific World BIE Program Coordinator On Apr 12, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Timothy Smith wrote: > > > > > > Franz wrote >> >> But Joanna warned, >> >>> I always viewed this trend as a corruption of Buddhist practice >>> and teachings, another example of how capitalisim commodifies >>> anything, and tries to commodify everything. >> >> I agree with this as well. When Buddhist practices reshape business >> practices I am sanguine. But when business practices reshape Buddhist >> practices I am intensely disturbed. This is why I come down so hard on >> (the now disgraced) Genpo Roshi's Big Mind enterprise, especially in >> its 5-5-50 guise. That is a example of, at least to me, blatant >> commodification of Buddhism, exactly what Joanna warns against. When >> Buddhism is delivered to the people via the mechanisms of >> commodification, it loses its ability to critique the structures of >> capitalism. Very unskillful. > > There are, at the very least, a number of areas where the buddhist concerns > with desire/aversion/ignorance are at odds with what I call 'unfettered capitalism'. > Having said that, capitalism, like any other 'ism' is a human enterprise and can > benefit from a wise and reflective critique of its methods, beliefs and outcomes. > I think this is where building awareness comes in. Its the first step in understanding > how the excesses of this (or any system) have negative consequences whether they > be individual, organizational or systemic in character. Gotta start somewhere. >> >> But, to be candid, I've had my share of critics at author events >> taking me to task for what they see as my own contribution to >> commodifying the Buddhadharma. They are not entirely wrong. >> >> Franz > > Damned if you do, damned if you don't eh Franz....LOL. BTW, I'd love to see your book, > can you point me toward it? > > Tks, > > Tim > Timothy Smith > Office/Mobile 831.624.8138 > Fax 831.659-5112 > www.wheelwrightassoc.com > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rjacobs2 at utk.edu Wed Apr 13 09:23:38 2011 From: rjacobs2 at utk.edu (Scott, Rachelle M) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:23:38 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Position in the Religions of East Asia Message-ID: Please post on the list-serv. Thanks. The University of Tennessee, Department of Religious Studies, invites applications for a one-year full-time lecturer in the Religions of East Asia to begin August 2011. The position requires teaching a 4-4 course load. PhD and teaching experience is preferred, but ABDs in the final stages of completing their dissertations will be considered. Area of expertise is open to any historical period and geographic location within East Asia, but preference will be given to candidates who are able to teach classes in their area of specialization (e.g. Chinese philosophy and religion, East Asian Buddhist history and practice, or Japanese religions), as well as introductory classes on the world?s religions. Please send a letter of application, curriculum vitae, statement of research interests, and three letters of recommendation, to Dr. Rosalind Hackett, Head of the Department of Religious Studies, at rhackett at utk.edu. Electronic submissions are preferred, but applications may be sent to 501 McClung Tower, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN, 37996. Review of applications will begin April 11 and continue until the position is filled. The University of Tennessee is an EEO/AA/Title VI/Title IX/Section 504/ADA/ADEA institution in the provision of its education and employment programs and services. All qualified applicants will receive equal consideration for employment without regard to race, color, national origin, religion, sex, pregnancy, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity, age, physical or mental disability, or covered veteran status. -- Dr. Rachelle Scott Associate Professor Department of Religious Studies University of Tennessee From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Apr 13 22:33:35 2011 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Psychoanalysis of a Zen Teacher Message-ID: <665296.41596.qm@web112618.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I missed this article about a Zen teacher who was psychoanalyzed by Dr. Jeffry Rubin?(http://www.drjeffreyrubin.com/) two?years ago, but it's still online: ? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26zen-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine ? Enjoy. ? Katherine Masis ? ? ? From stuan at nc.rr.com Thu Apr 14 09:31:27 2011 From: stuan at nc.rr.com (Shiangtai Tuan shiangtai@alumni.duke.edu) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Psychoanalysis of a Zen Teacher In-Reply-To: <665296.41596.qm@web112618.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110414153127.I7MM6.201463.root@cdptpa-web19-z01> Did not know some people's soul (or self, as the article puts it) resides in the part the circumcision removes. Well, maybe the Jewish forefathers knew that and that was why circumcision started and meant to do. I wonder if some people's self resides in the hair and that was why a B Monk needs to have the hair removed. Also wondered if cutting finger nails does the same. Maybe all Zen masters who cut toe nails should go see a psychiatrist. Lucky I am neither Jewish nor Zen Master. Do enjoy the last comment of Bambi though. ---- Katherine Masis wrote: I missed this article about a Zen teacher who was psychoanalyzed by Dr. Jeffry Rubin?(http://www.drjeffreyrubin.com/) two?years ago, but it's still online: ? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26zen-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine ? Enjoy. ? Katherine Masis ? ? ? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- Best Regards, Shiangtai shiangtai at alumni.duke.edu 1406 Shawnee St, Durham, NC 27701, USA (919) 688-6607 ne demandez pas pourquoi, demendez pourquoi pas non chiedere perche, chiedere perche no Frage nicht warum, Frage warum nicht. From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 14 09:35:50 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:35:50 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: [INDOLOGY] Reminder: April 15: Gregory Schopen on Debt, Slavery, and Who could Become a Buddhist Nun (or Monk) in Early India Message-ID: X-posted. Denizens near Toronto might like to hear this lecture. Wish I could. Joanna _____ From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Shayne Clarke Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 5:04 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reminder: April 15: Gregory Schopen on Debt, Slavery, and Who could Become a Buddhist Nun (or Monk) in Early India Apologies for cross-posting. Reminder: The University of Toronto/McMaster University Yehan Numata Buddhist Studies Program is pleased to announce a free, public lecture by Professor Gregory Schopen (UCLA): ?The Limited Reach of Religious Doctrine: Debt, Slavery, and Who could Become a Buddhist Nun (or Monk) in Early India.? Time and date: 5 pm, April 15, 2011 Place: Muzzo Family Alumni Hall 100, University of St. Michael?s College, 121 St. Joseph Street, Toronto Sponsored by the University of Toronto/McMaster University Yehan Numata Buddhist Studies Program Professor Gregory Schopen (MA McMaster University, 1975; PhD ANU, 1979) has taught at the Universities of Michigan, Washington, Indiana, Texas, Stanford, and California. He was awarded a prestigious MacArthur ?genius? fellowship (1985-1990) in recognition of his work in Buddhist Studies, which has been described as ?Unquestionably the freshest, most exciting scholarship to have emerged in the field in half a century.? Professor Schopen?s numerous publications include: ? Bones, Stones and Buddhist Monks. University of Hawai?i Press, 1997. ? Buddhist Monks and Business Matters. University of Hawai?i Press, 2004. ? Figments and Fragments of Mah?y?na Buddhism in India. University of Hawai?i Press, 2005. For more information, contact Shayne Clarke: clarsha at mcmaster.ca http://buddhiststudies.chass.utoronto.ca/gregory-schopen/ ------------------- Shayne Clarke Department of Religious Studies McMaster University University Hall, Room 104 1280 Main Street West Hamilton, Ontario L8S 4K1 CANADA Phone: 905 525 9140, ext. 23389 Fax: 905 525 8161 clarsha[at]mcmaster.ca http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/clarsha/ From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Apr 14 11:21:45 2011 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:21:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? Message-ID: A colleague of mine, Russell Goodman, is a scholar of American philosophy and has asked me if I know of any Buddhist source of a quote that Ralph Waldo Emerson attributes to Buddhists. Emerson writes: "The Buddhist expresses the true law of hospitality when he says, 'Do not flatter your benefactors.' The bread that you give me is not thine to give, but mine when the great Order of Nature has seated me today at your table." According to Professor Goodman, the quote "first appears in his journals for 1840 (Journals and Miscellaneous Notebooks v. 7, p. 337), then in 'The Transcendentalist' (1841), then near the end of Emerson's essay "Gifts" in the second series of essays (1844.) It's also used in his letters." The quote in 'The Transcendentalist' goes: "The Buddhist, who thanks no man, who says 'Do not flatter your benefactors," but who, in his conviction that every good deed can by no possibility escape its reward, will not deceive the benefactor by pretending that he has done more than he should, is a Transcendentalist." (p. 337 in the old riverside edition of E's works). I can think of nothing in any Buddhist texts I have read that sounds like this. If any of you can think of something, please let me know so I can pass it on to Russell Goodman. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy MSC03 2140 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 rhayes at unm.edu From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 11:40:23 2011 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:40:23 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry Olcott's Buddhist Catechism is a good candidate, but then again its publication date does not corroberate with the dates you mention. All the best, Stefan Op donderdag 14 april 2011 schreef Richard Hayes (rhayes at unm.edu) het volgende: > A colleague of mine, Russell Goodman, is a scholar of American philosophy and has asked me if I know of any Buddhist source of a quote that Ralph Waldo Emerson attributes to Buddhists. Emerson writes: > > "The Buddhist expresses the true law of hospitality when he says, 'Do not flatter your benefactors.' ?The bread that you give me is not thine to give, but mine when the great Order of Nature has seated me today at your table." > > According to Professor Goodman, the quote "first appears in his journals for 1840 (Journals and Miscellaneous Notebooks v. 7, p. 337), then in 'The Transcendentalist' (1841), then near the end of Emerson's essay "Gifts" in the second series of essays (1844.) It's also used in his letters." > > The quote in 'The Transcendentalist' goes: ?"The Buddhist, who thanks no man, who says 'Do not flatter your benefactors," but who, in his conviction that every good deed can by no possibility escape its reward, will not deceive the benefactor by pretending that he has done more than he should, is a Transcendentalist." (p. 337 in the old riverside edition of E's works). > > I can think of nothing in any Buddhist texts I have read that sounds like this. If any of you can think of something, please let me know so I can pass it on to Russell Goodman. > > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > MSC03 2140 > 1 University of New Mexico > Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 > rhayes at unm.edu > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From lemmett at talk21.com Thu Apr 14 11:53:18 2011 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 18:53:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <772268.41621.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hello. Of course I don't know but Nietzsche mentions this http://www.nietzschespirit.com/files/Buddha's_'Religion'_-_a_Kind_of_Hygiene.html ha :-) Thanks Luke --- On Thu, 14/4/11, Richard Hayes wrote: > From: Richard Hayes > Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Date: Thursday, 14 April, 2011, 18:21 > A colleague of mine, Russell Goodman, > is a scholar of American philosophy and has asked me if I > know of any Buddhist source of a quote that Ralph Waldo > Emerson attributes to Buddhists. Emerson writes: > > "The Buddhist expresses the true law of hospitality when he > says, 'Do not flatter your benefactors.'? The bread > that you give me is not thine to give, but mine when the > great Order of Nature has seated me today at your table." > > According to Professor Goodman, the quote "first appears in > his journals for 1840 (Journals and Miscellaneous Notebooks > v. 7, p. 337), then in 'The Transcendentalist' (1841), then > near the end of Emerson's essay "Gifts" in the second series > of essays (1844.) It's also used in his letters." > > The quote in 'The Transcendentalist' goes:? "The > Buddhist, who thanks no man, who says 'Do not flatter your > benefactors," but who, in his conviction that every good > deed can by no possibility escape its reward, will not > deceive the benefactor by pretending that he has done more > than he should, is a Transcendentalist." (p. 337 in the old > riverside edition of E's works). > > I can think of nothing in any Buddhist texts I have read > that sounds like this. If any of you can think of something, > please let me know so I can pass it on to Russell Goodman. > > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > MSC03 2140 > 1 University of New Mexico > Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 > rhayes at unm.edu > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 14 12:34:41 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:34:41 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Psychoanalysis of a Zen Teacher References: <665296.41596.qm@web112618.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <365258B78DEF463ABC124BC23F3F7327@OPTIPLEX> I missed this article about a Zen teacher who was psychoanalyzed by Dr. Jeffry Rubin?(http://www.drjeffreyrubin.com/) two?years ago, but it's still online: ? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26zen-t.html?_r=1&ref= magazine ? Enjoy. ? Katherine Masis -------------------------- Dear Katherine This is the best thing I've read on Zen & psychoanalysis, thanks for posting it. Reminds me of a Kornfield book, _After the Ecstasy, the Laundry._ I've not ventured into this book because it's kind of a compendium and for that reason put me off of it, but I'd love to know if anyone here has read it? Any observations? Best, Joanna ? ? ? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Apr 14 13:06:53 2011 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? In-Reply-To: <772268.41621.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <772268.41621.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA745CD.9020005@cola.iges.org> And Walter Kaufmann, in a footnote, indicates that Nietzsche almost certainly got it from Emerson. See page 191 of Kaufmann's translation (Random House 1974 edition): *http://books.google.com/books?id=1J42XQgGQ6UC Curt* On 4/14/11 1:53 PM, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: > Hello. Of course I don't know but Nietzsche mentions this http://www.nietzschespirit.com/files/Buddha's_'Religion'_-_a_Kind_of_Hygiene.html > > ha :-) > > Thanks > Luke > > --- On Thu, 14/4/11, Richard Hayes wrote: > >> From: Richard Hayes >> Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? >> To: "Buddhist discussion forum" >> Date: Thursday, 14 April, 2011, 18:21 >> A colleague of mine, Russell Goodman, >> is a scholar of American philosophy and has asked me if I >> know of any Buddhist source of a quote that Ralph Waldo >> Emerson attributes to Buddhists. Emerson writes: >> >> "The Buddhist expresses the true law of hospitality when he >> says, 'Do not flatter your benefactors.' The bread >> that you give me is not thine to give, but mine when the >> great Order of Nature has seated me today at your table." >> >> According to Professor Goodman, the quote "first appears in >> his journals for 1840 (Journals and Miscellaneous Notebooks >> v. 7, p. 337), then in 'The Transcendentalist' (1841), then >> near the end of Emerson's essay "Gifts" in the second series >> of essays (1844.) It's also used in his letters." >> >> The quote in 'The Transcendentalist' goes: "The >> Buddhist, who thanks no man, who says 'Do not flatter your >> benefactors," but who, in his conviction that every good >> deed can by no possibility escape its reward, will not >> deceive the benefactor by pretending that he has done more >> than he should, is a Transcendentalist." (p. 337 in the old >> riverside edition of E's works). >> >> I can think of nothing in any Buddhist texts I have read >> that sounds like this. If any of you can think of something, >> please let me know so I can pass it on to Russell Goodman. >> >> >> Richard Hayes >> Department of Philosophy >> MSC03 2140 >> 1 University of New Mexico >> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 >> rhayes at unm.edu >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 14 13:16:34 2011 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:16:34 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] What Buddhist is Emerson paraphrasing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA74812.4030009@ntlworld.com> Richard, I suspect that he had seen a travel account of the alms round practices in Ceylon or S.E. Asia. > A colleague of mine, Russell Goodman, is a scholar of American philosophy and has asked me if I know of any Buddhist source of a quote that Ralph Waldo Emerson attributes to Buddhists. Emerson writes: > > "The Buddhist expresses the true law of hospitality when he says, 'Do not flatter your benefactors.' The bread that you give me is not thine to give, but mine when the great Order of Nature has seated me today at your table." > > According to Professor Goodman, the quote "first appears in his journals for 1840 (Journals and Miscellaneous Notebooks v. 7, p. 337), then in 'The Transcendentalist' (1841), then near the end of Emerson's essay "Gifts" in the second series of essays (1844.) It's also used in his letters." > > The quote in 'The Transcendentalist' goes: "The Buddhist, who thanks no man, who says 'Do not flatter your benefactors," but who, in his conviction that every good deed can by no possibility escape its reward, will not deceive the benefactor by pretending that he has done more than he should, is a Transcendentalist." (p. 337 in the old riverside edition of E's works). > > I can think of nothing in any Buddhist texts I have read that sounds like this. If any of you can think of something, please let me know so I can pass it on to Russell Goodman. > > > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > MSC03 2140 > 1 University of New Mexico > Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 > rhayes at unm.edu From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Fri Apr 15 03:34:47 2011 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:34:47 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: <123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110> <123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> Message-ID: <4DA81137.9090607@arcor.de> Am 08.04.2011 16:40, schrieb Stuart Lachs: > > I would like to announce my latest paper titled "When the Saints Go > Marching In: Modern Day Zen Hagiography." Dear Stuart, thank you for sharing your experiences and reflections about the hagiographies of Sheng Yen and Walter Nowick. I don't know both teachers personally, but I've read Sheng Yen's "Footprints in the Snow" in a German translation with joy and inspiration. Obviously you are right in that this 'autobiography' is a hagiography and it's not presenting the 'historical truth' (whatever this might be), but a retrospect of the old Master Sheng Yen. Since 2500 years the common way buddhist teachers present their livestories is to emphazise the aspects of Dharma and to neglect the aspects of 'worldliness'. So all buddhist autobiographical texts from the early monks and nuns of the Buddha, to the biography of Milarepa, to the biography of Sheng Yen are hagiographies. You're showing the problems of this hero worship in the Chan/Zen context clearly. But do you know Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth"? Campbell there shows some very deep rooted psychological archetypes, notably the "adventures of the hero". I think we cannot eliminate these deep psychological patterns - we have to live with this stuff, trying to make the best of it. Another point. You ascribe the many scandals in the US-Zen communities to the rank difference between 'enlightened' Roshi with 'Dharma-transmission' and 'unenlightened' disciples. This is evidently true. But in this context I miss in your paper another relevant topic - the deficiency of ethics-teaching in the Zen-Tradition (here Aitken was an exception). If all Zen-teachers and Zen-disciples would sign from the very beginning of their schooling the 5 Silas and would regularly discuss and renew their vows, I'm sure there were much less problems. with kind regards, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From slachs at att.net Fri Apr 15 11:31:44 2011 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:31:44 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110><123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> <4DA81137.9090607@arcor.de> Message-ID: Hi Bernard, You wrote, >" Obviously you are right in that this 'autobiography' is a hagiography > and it's not presenting the 'historical truth' (whatever this might be), > but a retrospect of the old Master Sheng Yen. Since 2500 years the > common way buddhist teachers present their livestories is to emphazise > the aspects of Dharma and to neglect the aspects of 'worldliness'. So > all buddhist autobiographical texts from the early monks and nuns of the > Buddha, to the biography of Milarepa, to the biography of Sheng Yen are > hagiographies. From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Fri Apr 15 13:58:52 2011 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:58:52 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110><123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> <4DA81137.9090607@arcor.de> Message-ID: <4DA8A37C.7010707@arcor.de> Am 15.04.2011 19:31, schrieb Stuart Lachs: Hello Stuart, thank you for your kind answer. > From my understanding, at least in the Chan/Zen context, the masters did not > write these hagiographies themselves, but rather, their disciples and > later generations wrote and rewrote the hagiographies. But more interestingly, according to > Albert Welter and his "The Linji lu and the Creation of Chan Orthodoxy" the > tradition itself wrote the hagiography. In my understanding the 'normal' buddhist biography is written by the disciples of a great, old Dharma-teacher. For example, on occasion of Ven. Nyanaponika Mahathera's 75. & 85. birthday his disciples and friends published a Festschrift ("Des Geistes Gleichmass", 1976, and "Zur Erkenntnis geneigt", 1986). And when these old teachers are interviewed about their lives, in most cases they try to give answers that they feel could be helpful for their disciples. A special example is the tradition of death-bed poems (jap. jisei), a final r?sum? of living many years in the Dharma (see e.g. Yoel Hoffmann, "Japanese Death Poems"). The fabulous creations of Chan (Mahakashyapa's smile, Hui Neng, etc.) are in my view neither 'normal' buddhist biographies nor hagiographies, but myths - and insofar the same genre as the Mahayana Sutras. Telling stories and so on is seen authorized by the Mahayana-upaya argument. > Because of my papers, I get a fair amount of email from people around the > world involved in Zen. Thank you for all your work! Seems a bit like working in the garbage collection :-) But hopefully this work will reduce some amount of suffering. > Recently, I heard from a fellow in Europe having trouble with his teacher, > who was upset that this student questioned him about style of practice, > among other issues. The teacher screamed at him, "I represent the Buddha, > you represent ego." Really sad - but on the other way, a very good opportunity to make a bow and leave. Letdown leads to letting go leads to understanding. Buddhism has nothing more to sell than this bitter medicine - but there is also metta! > Yes- I did not mention "the deficiency of ethics-teaching in the > Zen-Tradition." This was > a mistake on my part. I think part of the problem here is that in Zen, > ethics is studied, at least in the Rinzai sect and I believe the Sanbokyodan > sect too. They are considered as a koan of sorts and examined in meditation > and in dokusan where they are viewed from a Zen perspective of emptiness and > the relative, interpenetration, host and guest... where the down to earth > straighforwardness is not so clear. Sometimes I'm reading and writing in the German Zen-Email-List 'Zenforum'. Whenever I mention the words ethics and silas, people there become very angry - they don't even like to discuss the silas, because that's dualistic thinking and not Zen :-)) Again thank you for all, and with best wishes, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 15 19:50:13 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:50:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: <4DA8A37C.7010707@arcor.de> References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110><123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> <4DA81137.9090607@arcor.de> <4DA8A37C.7010707@arcor.de> Message-ID: <0CC22AE1378D44118F011681F66C56C0@OPTIPLEX> [....] Sometimes I'm reading and writing in the German Zen-Email-List 'Zenforum'. Whenever I mention the words ethics and silas, people there become very angry - they don't even like to discuss the silas, because that's dualistic thinking and not Zen :-)) -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 _______________________________ "Whenever I mention the words ethics and silas, people there become very angry - they don't even like to discuss the silas, because that's dualistic thinking and not Zen :-))" This interesting remark sums up my problem with the Zen modus operandi: in Zen it's 'either/or', while I find 'both/and' to be more productive of insight and compassion. Best, Joanna K. From slachs at att.net Fri Apr 15 19:59:55 2011 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:59:55 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110><123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> <4DA81137.9090607@arcor.de> <4DA8A37C.7010707@arcor.de> Message-ID: Hi bernhard You wrote, "The fabulous creations of Chan (Mahakashyapa's smile, Hui Neng, etc.) are in my view neither 'normal' buddhist biographies nor hagiographies, but myths - and insofar the same genre as the Mahayana Sutras. Telling stories and so on is seen authorized by the Mahayana-upaya argument." I would say they are part hagiography because some people seem to believe them as historical reporting and part myth. They are myths because they were created for Chan's legitimating needs of mind to mind transmission, unbroken lineage from the historical Buddha, and so on. The separation between myth and hagiography is less than a clear line. I would say to a large extent the large Chan/Zen literature has replaced the sutras as the Zen canon. > Because of my papers, I get a fair amount of email from people around the > world involved in Zen. Thank you for all your work! Seems a bit like working in the garbage collection :-) But hopefully this work will reduce some amount of suffering. It is at least helpful to people who have trouble with a Zen teacher and/or group and then are made to feel that some thing is wrong with them or that all the problem lies with them. Often, these people do not have the background to understand how they are being pushed around, how the constructed Zen tradition is being used against them and so on. These people find my work extremely helpful to make sense of their situation. > Recently, I heard from a fellow in Europe having trouble with his teacher, > who was upset that this student questioned him about style of practice, > among other issues. The teacher screamed at him, "I represent the Buddha, > you represent ego." Really sad - but on the other way, a very good opportunity to make a bow and leave. Letdown leads to letting go leads to understanding. Buddhism has nothing more to sell than this bitter medicine - but there is also metta! Actually, this fellow replied to the roshi, "Who authorized you to speak for the Buddha?" He was then told to "get out" by the roshi, which he did. But it is not easy afterwards. These are complicated relationships that develop over years. Sometimes I'm reading and writing in the German Zen-Email-List 'Zenforum'. Whenever I mention the words ethics and silas, people there become very angry - they don't even like to discuss the silas, because that's dualistic thinking and not Zen :-)) Why have to deal with a messy world when you can collapse everything into an undifferentiated onesness and bless it with the title Zen. Thank you for your reply. All the best, Stuart Again thank you for all, and with best wishes, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 15 20:17:21 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:17:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: References: <1287066963.5502.20.camel@aims110><123D5E8566B348CD9CF00BA729E5956B@Stuki> <4DA81137.9090607@arcor.de><4DA8A37C.7010707@arcor.de> Message-ID: <2BDB6AF1D9FD475F82E7E42583ED26AC@OPTIPLEX> Stuart wrote: [....] He was then told to "get out" by the roshi, which he did. But it is not easy afterwards. These are complicated relationships that develop over years. ________________ "complicated relationships that develop over years." Reminds me of Freud's "psychoanalysis, terminable and interminable." Joanna From lemmett at talk21.com Fri Apr 15 20:41:29 2011 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 03:41:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: <4DA8A37C.7010707@arcor.de> Message-ID: <693943.57754.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, > Recently, I heard from a fellow in Europe having trouble with his teacher, > who was upset that this student questioned him about style of practice, > among other issues. The teacher screamed at him, "I represent the Buddha, > you represent ego." I wondered if you could explain what the teacher meant or just more generally what zen buddhism says about the ego - I don't actually think it's a term I've encountered in what I've read. I do sometimes wonder whether, because of the nature of hagiographies and what M.B. Schiekel mentioned in his reply, whether contemporary zen is an institutionalization not so much of the buddha-dharma but a manner of standing in connection with the buddha. I would not say it's just a reproduction of mythological interaction but probably that one can do so authentically, have transmission but nothing more. Even that anything more wouldn't add to that. Whether or not the zen schools have a monopoly on the buddha-dharma - which seems a strange idea really. Hope that this is fine. Thanks, Luke From slachs at att.net Fri Apr 15 23:10:43 2011 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 01:10:43 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) References: <693943.57754.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2E93FC3FE5F54D2DBE9CA088F9BF3E62@Stuki> Hi Luke, You wrote, "The teacher screamed at him, "I represent the Buddha, >> you represent ego." > > I wondered if you could explain what the teacher meant or just more > generally what zen buddhism says about the ego - I don't actually think > it's a term I've encountered in what I've read." I believe the teacher meant that he speaks with the mind of the Buddha, the selfless enlightened mind while the student " representing ego" speaks with a mind attached to itself, self protective, some times referred to as the small mind, a mind/being that sees itself in opposition to and separate from everything else. If you have read old Chan/Zen texts or their translations, you will not see the term ego because it is a modern western term. However, it is commonly used around western Zen centers. All the best, Stuart From caodemarte at yahoo.com Sat Apr 16 07:56:28 2011 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (G. McLoughlin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 06:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: <2E93FC3FE5F54D2DBE9CA088F9BF3E62@Stuki> References: <693943.57754.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <2E93FC3FE5F54D2DBE9CA088F9BF3E62@Stuki> Message-ID: <319725.70833.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I would imagine that anyone who sets up an "I represent absolute reality and it is in opposition to your small self" opposition like this would be seen as pretty suspicious. ________________________________ From: Stuart Lachs To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:10:43 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) Hi Luke, You wrote, "The teacher screamed at him, "I represent the Buddha, >> you represent ego." > > I wondered if you could explain what the teacher meant or just more > generally what zen buddhism says about the ego - I don't actually think > it's a term I've encountered in what I've read." I believe the teacher meant that he speaks with the mind of the Buddha, the selfless enlightened mind while the student " representing ego" speaks with a mind attached to itself, self protective, some times referred to as the small mind, a mind/being that sees itself in opposition to and separate from everything else. If you have read old Chan/Zen texts or their translations, you will not see the term ego because it is a modern western term. However, it is commonly used around western Zen centers. All the best, Stuart _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From lemmett at talk21.com Sat Apr 16 08:08:55 2011 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:08:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) In-Reply-To: <319725.70833.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <409623.69139.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yes! I've never come across anything like that before - the worst thing is just someone that... I mean it always seem ambiguous which is a good thing. Sort of like: if you were a normal human being I'd think you were being rude to me, really. Thank you for tolerating me :-) Luke --- On Sat, 16/4/11, G. McLoughlin wrote: > From: G. McLoughlin > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 14:56 > I would imagine that anyone who sets > up an "I represent absolute reality and it > is in opposition to your small self"? opposition like > this would be seen as > pretty suspicious. > > ________________________________ > From: Stuart Lachs > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching > In (Lachs) > > Hi Luke, > > You wrote, > "The teacher screamed at him, "I represent the Buddha, > >> you represent ego." > > > > I wondered if you could explain what the teacher meant > or just more > > generally what zen buddhism says about the ego - I > don't actually think > > it's a term I've encountered in what I've read." > > I believe the teacher meant that he speaks with the mind of > the Buddha, the > selfless enlightened mind while the student " representing > ego" speaks with > a mind attached to itself, self protective, some times > referred to as the > small mind, a mind/being that sees itself in opposition to > and separate from > everything else. > > If you have read old Chan/Zen texts or their translations, > you will not see > the term ego because it is a modern western term. However, > it is commonly > used around western Zen centers. > > All the best, > > Stuart > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 12:54:46 2011 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Psychoanalysis of a Zen Teacher Message-ID: <935511.25981.qm@web112606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In my opinion, Jack Kornfield's best (and I think his first) book is _A Path with Heart_. ? Lest anyone think spiritual teachers are above psychotherapy, here's a link to a great short article by Kornfield: ? ?http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed018.htm ? Best wishes, Katherine?? ? ? ********************************* Dear Katherine This is the best thing I've read on Zen & psychoanalysis, thanks for posting it. Reminds me of a Kornfield book, _After the Ecstasy, the Laundry._ I've not ventured into this book because it's kind of a compendium and for that reason put me off of it,? but I'd love to know if anyone here has read it? Any observations? Best, Joanna From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 13:31:42 2011 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 12:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Paper: When the Saints Go Marching In (Lachs) Message-ID: <612314.42494.qm@web112620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Suspicious and rude, yes.? But you folks would be amazed at how common these attitudes and behaviors are in Western Zen, mainly because they are disguised as bitter-medicine-that-is-good-for-you.? Spiritual abuse?can emerge in any and all traditions,?and Zen is no exception.? There are tons of articles on the Web about this phenomenon.? I have downloaded quite a bibliography.? If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list.? Stuart Lachs' clearly written articles are an excellent place to start. ? Katherine Masis ************************? I?would imagine that anyone who sets up an "I represent absolute reality and it is in opposition to your small self"? opposition like this would be seen as pretty suspicious? -G. McLoughlin ************************ Yes! I've never come across anything like that before - the worst thing is just someone that... I mean it always seem ambiguous which is a good thing. Sort of like: if you were a normal human being I'd think you were being rude to me, really. -Luke ? From slachs at att.net Sun Apr 17 20:44:40 2011 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:44:40 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Psychoanalysis of a Zen Teacher References: <935511.25981.qm@web112606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85481F6D9B234162BD0678869994F0D1@Stuki> Yea - it is a good paper - I read it and saved it. It is clean and to the point as opposed to the Nordstrum material in the Times. I look forward to your biblio. Thanks, Stuart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Masis" To: Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Psychoanalysis of a Zen Teacher In my opinion, Jack Kornfield's best (and I think his first) book is _A Path with Heart_. Lest anyone think spiritual teachers are above psychotherapy, here's a link to a great short article by Kornfield: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed018.htm Best wishes, Katherine ********************************* Dear Katherine This is the best thing I've read on Zen & psychoanalysis, thanks for posting it. Reminds me of a Kornfield book, _After the Ecstasy, the Laundry._ I've not ventured into this book because it's kind of a compendium and for that reason put me off of it, but I'd love to know if anyone here has read it? Any observations? Best, Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Apr 19 20:49:21 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:49:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stanford scholar Tenzin Tethong could be the next prime minister of Tibet Message-ID: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2011/april/scholar-tethong-tibet-04 1811.html Not about Buddism per se, but a hopeful development. Tenzin Tethong is a scholar, not a cleric............strikes me as a positive development. Joanna From donnab at hawaii.edu Wed Apr 20 00:56:46 2011 From: donnab at hawaii.edu (donna Bair-Mundy) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:56:46 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Buddha-l] New York Review blog about the Dalai Lama (fwd) Message-ID: Aloha, This was forwarded to me by my husband. Interesting. Have a safe and joyful day, donna Bair-Mundy, Ph.D. Instructor, LIS Program Information & Computer Sci. Dept. Hamilton Library, Room 003-B 2550 McCarthy Mall University of Hawai`i at Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 Voice: 808-956-9518 Fax: 808-956-5835 Here's an interesting blog article from the New York Review of Books. THE DALAI LAMA?S ?DECEPTION?: WHY A SEVENTEENTH-CENTURY DECREE MATTERS TO BEIJING Robert Barnett The Dalai Lama?s recent announcement of his planned retirement was not well received by China?s Foreign Ministry, whose spokeswoman described it as an attempt ?to deceive the international community.? Many assumed this to be a reference to the fact that even after the Tibetan leader gives up his official position within the exile Tibetan administration, he will continue to travel, give speeches, and be a symbolic leader to Tibetans, a source of considerable frustration for Beijing. But Chinese officials also appear to be worried about something rather more obscure: a little-known seventeenth-century precedent in which the retirement of a Dalai Lama concealed a convoluted plot to prevent China from choosing his successor. For this is not the first time that the Dalai Lama of Tibet has issued a decree announcing that a younger, largely unknown man is to take over as the political leader of the Tibetan people. It happened before?in 1679. To explain why this detail of history matters to the Chinese government requires a little background. Until the Chinese army took over his country in 1950, leading him to flee into exile nine years later, the current Dalai Lama, who is the fourteenth of his line, held political authority over Tibet. Historically, Dalai Lamas were not always recognized as having that power: the first four Dalai Lamas only had spiritual status as leading Buddhist teachers of their time. It was the Fifth Dalai Lama who was first given the authority to rule Tibet, following its invasion by a Mongol warlord who was a ferocious supporter of the Dalai Lama?s sect and so placed him on the throne, when he was twenty-five years old. That was in the Water-Horse year of the 11th Cycle, or 1642. The Fifth seems to have been extraordinarily capable, because under his rule, backed up by the Mongols? army, Tibet expanded into a vast and unified state covering most of the Tibetan plateau, with an organized bureaucracy, tax, and census system. But it is the events at the end of the Fifth Dalai Lama?s reign that seem to be of particular concern to Chinese analysts at the moment. After 43 years of rule, the Fifth announced that he had appointed a young Tibetan as the Sde-ba or head of the government, a position similar to that of regent. He had appointed such officials before, but now he was near the end of his life and was returning to a contemplative existence as a meditator and a scholar (he wrote at least thirty works in his lifetime, including some on the art of government). In 1679, he issued a decree announcing the appointment of the official, called Sangye Gyatso, who later became one of Tibet?s most famous writers. ? Because of its exceptional importance, the Fifth signed the decree not just with his name or seal, but with the full imprint of both his hands, dipped in gold and stamped upon the document. The decree was made into a scroll, 12 feet long, calligraphed on yellow silk with a painting of a curling dragon holding a wish-fulfilling jewel in its claws underneath the text, protector deities and snow-lions at its foot, and a portrait of the Dalai Lama at its head. It is one of the marks of Tibet?s national tragedy that this scroll, a pinnacle of Tibetan decorative art and political history, is no longer in Tibet: it is in exile too, in New York, having been carried out by a Tibetan family when they fled from Tibet fifty years ago. The Fifth went even further to emphasize the special nature of this decree: he had it painted onto a wall of the Potala Palace in Lhasa, at the top of the triple stairs that lead to the eastern entrance of the White Palace of the Potala, where it would be seen by every visitor. No other administrative or political document in Tibetan history is known to have received this treatment, and the mural is still there, since the building was one of the very few monuments in Tibet spared during the Cultural Revolution. The golden handprints have survived as well. ? This centuries-old decree does not seem at first glance to have much similarity to the Fourteenth Dalai Lama?s plans today, except that both concern the appointment of officials to replace him in his secular responsibilities. The Fourteenth?s decree is a very modern document?it describes his decision to democratize his government in Dharamsala, India, and instructs the exiles? parliament to change their constitution so that, in the future, Dalai Lamas will no longer hold any political power. Instead, the political leader of the exile Tibetans is expected to be an elected Prime Minister, and on March 20, exile Tibetans went to the polls to choose who will hold that post (the three final candidates are all laymen educated in the United States or Britain or working there; the election results are expected in late April, after all the diaspora votes have been counted). ? But from Beijing?s perspective, the democratization of the exile government is a minor detail. For them, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama?s underlying objective appears similar to the Fifth?s: not just to create a robust government that will survive the death of a charismatic leader, but also to forestall Chinese involvement in the selection of the next Dalai Lama. Indeed, it is no secret that the Fourteenth?s democratic initiative is designed to create an exile administration that will function independently until a settlement is reached with China, in case, as seems increasingly likely, that does not happen before his death?or that its most important task will be to find and establish the next Dalai Lama without interference from Beijing. ? However, in their reading, some Chinese analysts see a more elaborate machination in play. At the time of the 1679 decree, the situation was roughly similar to today: a powerful China?then under the newly established Qing dynasty?was actively claiming overlordship of Tibet, and the Dalai Lama was in his final years. His new Regent, Sangye Gyatso, was only twenty-six years old, and so was likely to live long enough to handle by himself the fifteen-year-long process of finding and bringing up the next Dalai Lama. But the Fifth did not rely on this alone to ensure that his succession would remain in Tibetan hands: he had another, hidden strategy. It is this that has led to heightened concern in Beijing today. For three years after the double-handprint decree of 1679 had been announced, when the Fifth had completely withdrawn from public life and knew his end was near, he gave Sangye Gyatso additional instructions: the Regent was to keep his coming death a secret. It was a ruse the Fifth had probably learned from the Bhutanese, who had done the same on the death of their leader, also a lama, thirty-one years earlier. ? When the Fifth died in 1682 at the age of sixty-five, Sangye Gyatso duly informed the public that the Dalai Lama was in retreat. On the rare occasions when important visitors were allowed an audience, he enlisted an elderly monk of similar age and appearance to pretend to be the Fifth; the monk wore a large eye-shade, much like the current Dalai Lama, albeit for different reasons. ? The deception was so effective that it was fourteen years before the Chinese Emperor realized he had been duped, and then only because some Mongolian prisoners of war mentioned reports they had heard in Lhasa that the Dalai Lama had died more than a decade earlier. By then the next Dalai Lama had been identified, educated, and established: a succession crisis had largely been avoided. The Qing had been denied any say over the selection of the Sixth Dalai Lama, thus taking away a fundamental part of their claim to overlordship. ?You, Regent!? thundered the Emperor Kangxi in a 1696 edict to Sangye Gyatso, ?You are nothing except an administrator working for the Dalai Lama, you were elevated to be the ?King of Tibet? by us! ?This news should have been communicated to us directly!? ? Hence the concern in some quarters of Beijing that the current Dalai Lama might be similarly using his retirement to prevent China from selecting his spiritual successor and thus reinforcing its claim to sovereignty over Tibet. Control of the selection of lamas is so important to that claim that the current Chinese leadership passed a law in 2007 ordaining that only it has the authority to choose the reincarnation of a Dalai Lama, or of any other lama. (Like their seventeenth-century predecessors, China?s leaders show relatively little interest in political leaders among Tibetans; it is the spiritual leaders who are seen as significant and powerful.) So we should not be surprised that, weeks before the Dalai Lama?s announcement about his retirement plans, elite analysts within the Chinese government were tasked with determining whether he might also be planning to go into retreat in order to conceal his eventual death. The level of concern was sufficient that even foreign views were sought, and I was approached discreetly for my opinion (which was negative); no doubt others were asked as well. ? To a secular rationalist this might seem far-fetched: how could any modern leader hide his own death? But major decisions in modern Chinese politics are often made on the basis of historical antecedents, sometimes with positive results and at other times with tragic ones. When Mao briefly allowed Tibet almost total autonomy in the 1950s, it was probably in part because he knew from historians that it had never been a province or an integral part of China in the past. When a Tibetan child was forcibly installed by Beijing to be the 11th Panchen Lama in 1995, officials were following the example of Chinese Nationalists, who in 1949 had imposed their own choice as the previous incumbent. And again, when Jiang Zemin made a brutal decision to annihilate the basically harmless Falungong cult in 1999, it is believed that he saw it as analogous to the religious movement that had started the Taiping Rebellion and nearly toppled the Qing in the mid-19th century. Given this deep vein of historicism and mutual suspicion, it becomes easier to understand the Chinese government?s hypersensitive reading of the events of 1679. Indeed, when the Tibetan Drama Troupe in Lhasa made Budala gong mishi (?The Secret History of the Potala Palace?), an epic 1989 film about the Fifth Dalai Lama?s 1679 decree and Sangye Gyatso?s successful deception of the Qing Emperors, it was immediately banned, and it has never been shown publicly in China. And eight years later, the Party Secretary of Tibet, Chen Kuiyuan, issued an unprecedented declaration that Sangye Gyatso was henceforth to be considered a ?separatist chieftain,? though he carefully avoided reminding readers of the reasons. Positive mention of the Regent has been banned in Tibet or elsewhere in China ever since. ? The Party, it seems, does not forget the past, or at least not episodes in which its imperial predecessors were outmaneuvred by Tibetans, lamas, or their appointees. This is by no means the only perspective found among analysts in Beijing, much of whose work is no doubt of great astuteness. But it provides an indication of the centuries of mistrust that must be overcome before China and the Tibetan leadership can resolve their differences. April 6, 2011 10:30 a.m. From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 21 14:55:46 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:55:46 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] [INDOLOGY] Fw: new publication Message-ID: X-posted by Joanna K. Excerpt from mostly deleted announcement due to size requirements on this list: 'These inscriptions are the best evidence we have for life in mah?s??ghika monasteries in Bactria from c. 50 A.D. to c. 650.' This publication lends additonal support to the idea that Buddhism in central Asia had survived into the Umayyad period--and IMO had influenced some 'heterodox ideas' (even if it was early to use the term heterodox!) in Islam. Even if there were no monasteries in east-coastal Mediterranean, central Asian monks for long had been traveling along lengthy east-west corridors and the silk roads. It's inconceivable to me that they had not reached the west coasts, where the Umayyads predominated, in their peregrinations. Hmm let's see: 88euros .....129 USD--ouch! ____________________ ----- Message d'origine ----- De : Gerard Fussman ? : INDOL0GY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Envoy? : jeudi 21 avril 2011 17:50 Objet : new publication New book : Shakirjan PIDAEV, Tukhtash ANNAEV et G?rard FUSSMAN, Monuments bouddhiques de Termez/Termez Buddhist Monuments, I, Catalogue des inscriptions sur poteries par G?rard FUSSMAN avec une contribution de Nicholas SIMS-WILLIAMS et la collaboration d??ric OLLIVIER, Publications de l?Institut de Civilisation Indienne, fasc. 791 et 792, Paris, 280 pages including 16 colour plates and 80 black and white plates. Euros 88. Available from De Boccard, 11 rue de M?dicis, 75006 Paris, http://www.deboccard.com/ From azuban at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 19:14:29 2011 From: azuban at gmail.com (Andre Zuban) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:14:29 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] [INDOLOGY] Fw: new publication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's interesting! I participated in the archeological digs near Termez in the 90s. We excavated the Kara-Tepe Buddhist cave monastery on the bank of the Amudaria (right on the Uzbekistan-Afghanistan border). Andre On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:55 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > X-posted by Joanna K. > > Excerpt from mostly deleted announcement due to size requirements on this > list: 'These inscriptions are the best evidence we have for life in > mah?s??ghika monasteries in Bactria from c. 50 A.D. to c. 650.' > > > > This publication lends additonal support to the idea that Buddhism in > central Asia had survived into the Umayyad period--and IMO had influenced > some 'heterodox ideas' (even if it was early to use the term heterodox!) in > Islam. Even if there were no monasteries in east-coastal Mediterranean, > central Asian monks for long had been traveling along lengthy east-west > corridors and the silk roads. It's inconceivable to me that they had not > reached the west coasts, where the Umayyads predominated, in their > peregrinations. > > Hmm let's see: 88euros .....129 USD--ouch! > > ____________________ > > ----- Message d'origine ----- > De : Gerard Fussman > ? : INDOL0GY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Envoy? : jeudi 21 avril 2011 17:50 > Objet : new publication > > New book : > > Shakirjan PIDAEV, Tukhtash ANNAEV et G?rard FUSSMAN, Monuments bouddhiques > de Termez/Termez Buddhist Monuments, I, Catalogue des inscriptions sur > poteries par G?rard FUSSMAN avec une contribution de Nicholas SIMS-WILLIAMS > et la collaboration d??ric OLLIVIER, Publications de l?Institut de > Civilisation Indienne, fasc. 791 et 792, Paris, 280 pages including 16 > colour plates and 80 black and white plates. Euros 88. > > Available from De Boccard, 11 rue de M?dicis, 75006 Paris, < > http://www.deboccard.com/> http://www.deboccard.com/ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 21 22:56:24 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:56:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] spring reading Message-ID: <633DBFC2103541EFAC959CA026DBA3AE@OPTIPLEX> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matteo-pistono/behind-the-scenes-of -in-t_b_836909.html#s254279 &title=In_the_Shadow Scroll down for more...............Nichtern, Jamyang Norbu, more Pistono.... Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Thu Apr 21 23:18:24 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:18:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Spring reading--plus photos and a videos Message-ID: <6332DD6CE07540F69C2D80520B40EFA4@OPTIPLEX> Behind the Scenes of 'In the Shadow of the Buddha' (PHOTOS) etc (Has anyone seen the book?) Joanna ----------------- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matteo-pistono/behind-the-scenes-of -in-t_b_836909.html#s254279&title=In_the_Shadow or http://tinyurl.com/3c6fyt8 "Pistono was born and raised in Wyoming, where he completed his undergraduate degree in Anthropology from the University of Wyoming. In 1997 he obtained his Masters of Arts degree in Indian Philosophy from the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. After working with the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C. on Tibetan cultural programs, Pistono lived and traveled throughout the Himalayas for a decade, bringing to the West graphic accounts and photos of China's human rights abuses in Tibet." From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 22 09:48:13 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:48:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] spring reading--with tiny url Message-ID: Sorry--here's the tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/3c6fyt8 The listserve fomatting sure messes up long links. JK _____ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matteo-pistono/behind-the-scenes-of -in-t_b_836909.html#s254279 &title=In_the_Shadow Scroll down for more...............Nichtern, Jamyang Norbu, more Pistono.... Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Fri Apr 22 11:28:09 2011 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:28:09 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] New York Review blog about the Dalai Lama (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72B48DD2D99C4EB3A34547DF0A1FF152@OPTIPLEX> Dear Donna Thanks for posting this. "But it provides an indication of the centuries of mistrust that must be overcome ..." The Chinese government today is imbued with excess arrogance and authoritarian practice, similar to that of European empires' governments in the past. However, globalization today is the new empire-maker. They took over Tibet in 1950, and since then have extended their commercial and international development influence into the whole of southeast Asia, backing up to the wall of India; so between these two there is a lot of mistrust and paranoia. As the new Asian empire, they cannot brook competition, and the spiritual power of Tibetan lamas and HHDL are the thorn in their side so far as Tibet goes. If one were researching centuries of mistrust, a lot could be discovered about all the ancient Asian governments' secret doings over the centuries. It wasn't only the Tibetans; but since they are China's b?te noire, they get the most attention (with Taiwan a close runner-up). That they could even think that the 14th Dalai Lama could succeed in having his death kept secret, in these days of world-wide communications, leaks, etc., is both hilarious and also testimony to the delusions to which their official and unofficial paranoia of power aggrandizement subjects them. Joanna From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Apr 25 01:25:02 2011 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:25:02 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] A talk by Professor Lewis Lancaster at the Buddhist Library, Singapore Message-ID: <50274FF1C1B34FA4AD278CF098DF9A66@comp.nus.edu.sg> Dear all, Professor Lancaster visited us recently and gave a talk. The following is a MP3 of his fascinating talk. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did. W.F. Wong ===================================== Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30SnKdVphZM Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU-iwYlzf4A Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO4e9yB0xpI Q & A Session: Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar29N-xg_qc Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5UuAJeJzoU Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDv5scUu8FU Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geNeaJA8zf8 Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ketu4aVXLv0 From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Apr 30 16:01:06 2011 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 16:01:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stanford scholar Tenzin Tethong could be the next prime minister of Tibet Message-ID: <38D02BAC-7ADA-42AB-A0F3-95805D810C06@unm.edu> Joanna writes: > Tenzin Tethong is a scholar, not a cleric............strikes me as a > positive development. Just out of curiosity, why? I ask this as someone whose lifetime involvement with scholars gives me no more confidence in them than in clerics. Both are pretty disappointing, although for somewhat different reasons. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy MSC03 2140 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Apr 30 16:24:47 2011 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:24:47 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Stanford scholar Tenzin Tethong could be the next primeminister of Tibet References: <38D02BAC-7ADA-42AB-A0F3-95805D810C06@unm.edu> Message-ID: <003601cc0785$6a029260$6402a8c0@Dan> > Joanna writes: > >> Tenzin Tethong is a scholar, not a cleric............strikes me as a >> positive development. > > Just out of curiosity, why? >Richard Hayes Add a pinch of respect to go along with the cynicism (see verse below), and maybe Joanna means something like the following, extracted from an essay by Dominik Wujustyk, concerned about India, not Tibet, but relevant nonetheless. Of course, Joanna can speak for herself if this misses what she had in mind. From: http://tinyurl.com/3ofmtr2 NOTES ON TRADITIONAL SANSKRIT TEACHING Dominik Wujastyk Two fundamentally different types of education have always been consciously distinguished in India: the "saastrika (scientific) and the vaidika (scriptural). This essay is exclusively concerned with the former. This resembles more closely our own patterns of education in Europe, in that the pupil has to widerstand the material which the teacher gives him. There is a great deal of rote learning too; much more than we are accustomed to in the West these days. Nevertheless, the "s?strika education embodies an intellectual tradition of proposition, evidence, argument and conclusion which is on a par with any such tradition elsewhere in the world. In stark contrast to this is the vaidika system whereby young boys are prepared to take up a position in society as religious functionaries. They will have to recite Vedic hymns from memory for hours on end at religious ceremonies. So they must learn these hymns by heart, or as the Sanskrit idiom has it, 'get them in their throats (kanthii-kr)'! The language of the hymns is difficult. It is full of archaic words, whose meanings are often unclear. So the priests will usually have only the vaguest idea of what it is that they are saying. More to the point, no one would ever think of asking them. All this is not to say that a vaidika man will not be fluently conversational in Sanskrit; all those I met were. And, as mentioned, a "saastrika man will have reams by heart. But this is the result of a cross fertilisation of the methods which in themselves are essentially distinct. The tradition itself sometimes jests on this distinction between vaidikas and "saastrikas, as in the following verse which describes the cunning dilettante: A priest when with pandits A pandit with priests; When both are there neither, When neither then both'. --- Dan