From 05jkirk at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 10:28:30 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:28:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? Message-ID: <000501cd9428$501d90d0$f058b270$@gmail.com> Nothing posted since Aug 15th. Joanna From lidewij at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 10:31:02 2012 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:31:02 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? In-Reply-To: <000501cd9428$501d90d0$f058b270$@gmail.com> References: <000501cd9428$501d90d0$f058b270$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Summer-retreat ;-) *Lidewij Niezink** PhD**, Niezink Training & Advies* Tel: 31 (0)592 769084 | Mobile: 31 (0)592 769084 lidewij at gmail.com | www.lidewijniezink.com [image: Twitter] [image: LinkedIn] Contact me: [image: Skype] Lidewij.Niezink [image: Twitter] Latest tweet: We live in fear of our children. Any society that fears its children will not long thrive. We have allowed enormous ?http://t.co/aBgrDl3I Follow @LidewijNi Reply Retweet 00:25 Sep-15 Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours 2012/9/16 jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> > Nothing posted since Aug 15th. > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Sep 16 15:05:02 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:05:02 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? References: <000501cd9428$501d90d0$f058b270$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C79B9554AE54DD19470F0B5C6589850@Dan> Who is responsible for the uptick in the slaughter of elephants for ivory? Catholics and BUDDHISTS! http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/a-report-exposes-how-the-chinese-government-is-fueling-elephant-slaughter/?src=recg Lots of informative links in this piece. National Geographic is also documenting this (short video at near the top of the nyt piece). Africans are killing off elephants in military raids (helicopters, military squads, etc.), selling the ivory to asians (Thai, Chinese, etc.), using the money to buy arms; and the majority of ivory is used for religious (and tourist) purposes. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/10/ivory/christy-text Park on your zafu and contemplate that for awhile. Dan From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 17 01:12:50 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:12:50 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha's birthplace? Message-ID: <5056CD72.8050605@xs4all.nl> it pops up now and then: claims of small places. http://is.gd/mroDsF Nevertheless who would not like to be informed? Erik From peter_kearns at hotmail.com Mon Sep 17 13:40:40 2012 From: peter_kearns at hotmail.com (peter kearns) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:40:40 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? In-Reply-To: References: <000501cd9428$501d90d0$f058b270$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Even vacation!!! Peter > Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:31:02 +0200 > From: lidewij at gmail.com > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? > > Summer-retreat ;-) > > >> > 2012/9/16 jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> > > > Nothing posted since Aug 15th. > > > > Joanna > > From 05jkirk at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 16:20:17 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:20:17 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? In-Reply-To: References: <000501cd9428$501d90d0$f058b270$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <005801cd95eb$c9c0ee90$5d42cbb0$@gmail.com> Sunya.....instead of summer? Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of peter kearns Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 1:41 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? Even vacation!!! Peter > Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:31:02 +0200 > From: lidewij at gmail.com > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Is this list totally defunct now? > > Summer-retreat ;-) > > >> > 2012/9/16 jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> > > > Nothing posted since Aug 15th. > > > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 13:23:20 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Two Different Conferences, Same Theme (World Religions) Message-ID: <1348169000.49472.YahooMailNeo@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Two different conferences on World Religions about to happen: ? In the U.K.:? http://www.worldreligionsconference.org/ ? ? In the U.S.:? http://67.222.59.61/ ? Is anybody on this list planning to attend either one of them? Katherine From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 13:36:07 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] On Wanton Destruction (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Going back to Joannas's and Richard Hayes' remarks on wanton destruction, I was wondering if there are any comments glorifying the destruction of libraries, shrines, etc. on the part of the perpetuators.? I would be interested to see how they defend their point of view. Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 13:37:52 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Yes, it's in Canada, not the UK! In-Reply-To: <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348169872.5838.YahooMailNeo@web112615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks for pointing that out!? One of the conferences is in Canada, not the U.K.? Hasty me, I got confused. ? Katherine From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Thu Sep 20 13:57:10 2012 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:57:10 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Liau Yiwu about Karmapa in virtual prison Message-ID: <505B7516.8040900@arcor.de> Hi all, Liau Yiwu about Karmapa in virtual prison in India: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-keeping-karmapa-in-virtual-prison-chinese-writer/1002229/0 In metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From 05jkirk at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 13:59:44 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:59:44 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Two Different Conferences, Same Theme (World Religions) In-Reply-To: <1348169000.49472.YahooMailNeo@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1348169000.49472.YahooMailNeo@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002601cd976a$7bbdb450$73391cf0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Masis Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 1:23 PM Two different conferences on World Religions about to happen: ? In the U.K.:? http://www.worldreligionsconference.org/ ? ? In the U.S.:? http://67.222.59.61/ ? Is anybody on this list planning to attend either one of them? Katherine __________________________________ Hi Katherine, Thing is, I wouldn't bother to attend any such conference. (I don't even attend my profession's conferences.) In fact, there might already be too many conferences in this world of endless blahblah, chatter, and religious terrorism from all camps. Figuring out a retreat to the forest seems more appealing, if only the forest these days were not inundated by wildfires and the air polluted by dense smoke. The planet is slowly dying, as we knew it anyway. Joanna From 05jkirk at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 14:34:30 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:34:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] On Wanton Destruction (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003801cd976f$5769d4d0$063d7e70$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Masis Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 1:36 PM Going back to Joannas's and Richard Hayes' remarks on wanton destruction, I was wondering if there are any comments glorifying the destruction of libraries, shrines, etc. on the part of the perpetuators.? I would be interested to see how they defend their point of view. Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica _______________________________________________ The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali were also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a small African country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.: " West African Islam has been deeply influenced by Sufism, the mystical branch of Islam that favours a metaphorical interpretation of the Qur?an and focuses on the spiritual development of the individual. West African Sufism is also known for its cult of the Marabouts, ?enlightened? individuals who mediate between God and humankind and who are also worshipped after they die. The groups who have now seized power in northern Mali are followers of a very different movement: fundamentalist Salafism from Saudi Arabia. Their brand of Islam has no historical roots in West Africa and it rejects Sufism and the mystical veneration of saints as a heresy. It is the fundamentalist Islam imported from Saudi Arabia and its animosity towards Sufism that has led to the tragic destruction of irreplaceable symbols of West Africa?s cultural heritage. Salafist literalists have already destroyed at least three historical mausoleums and they say they intend to raze them all to the ground. Historic mosques and libraries with manuscripts are not safe from these barbarians either. The manuscripts would fetch a fortune on the black market. There is a risk that important testimonies of a rich African scholarly tradition will disappear forever. ... European historians long claimed that Africa had no written history or intellectual tradition and that the first light of civilization arrived there with the European colonization. But if there is one city in Africa that dispels this myth, it is Timbuktu. [...]Timbuktu is best known for its historic mosques and mausoleums, where Sufi saints are entombed. But only recently did people realize that, aside from a centre of trade, the city was also a significant centre of intellectual life. In the late 1990s, an international research team found a number of private libraries where prominent families from Timbuktu kept tens of thousands of medieval manuscripts. Written in Arabic and in African languages, the manuscripts showed the world that 13th-century West African scholars were deeply engaged in the study of religious subjects but also logic, mathematics, astronomy, medicine and natural sciences. ...Once again extreme fundamentalists are endangering history! Just as the Catholic Church destroyed Maya texts and the Taleban destroyed Buddhist sites .these pigs are endangering a rich cultural history by their moronic attitudes." (from article, http://lobotero.com/2012/07/30/destruction-in-mali/ ) See also http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/world/africa/mali-shrines-destroyed/ The article is about the latest expression of religious sectarian destruction of writings or texts. The article says nothing about how the Salafis justify such destruction, but my readings elsewhere on ultra-fundamentalist Muslim sects tell me that, just as Sufi saint shrines represent idol worship, so does the protection of non Koranic (non-Sunni) religious texts. These are deemed to be blasphemy. Just as death is dealt out to persons accused of blasphemy, so it is to texts deemed the same. Joanna From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 20 14:47:05 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:47:05 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Liau Yiwu about Karmapa in virtual prison In-Reply-To: <505B7516.8040900@arcor.de> References: <505B7516.8040900@arcor.de> Message-ID: <505B80C9.9060402@xs4all.nl> I sympatize with Liau's concern, but I can also understand that the Indian administration doesn't want a power struggle between two Karmapa's. Besides the escape from India might not be as easy as his walk cross the border from Tibet. Erik Op 20-09-12 21:57, M.B. Schiekel schreef: > Hi all, > cape > Liau Yiwu about Karmapa in virtual prison in India: > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-keeping-karmapa-in-virtual-prison-chinese-writer/1002229/0 > > In metta, > bernhard > From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 20 15:04:47 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 23:04:47 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] On Wanton Destruction (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505B84EF.6020206@xs4all.nl> Op 20-09-12 21:36, Katherine Masis schreef: > Going back to Joannas's and Richard Hayes' remarks on wanton destruction, I was wondering if there are any comments glorifying the destruction of libraries, shrines, etc. on the part of the perpetuators. I would be interested to see how they defend their point of view. > I'm not sure if they are interested in giving any justifications. What they do looks a lot like power play. There is a relative justification of course on the basis of the assumption that a certain version of a religion is the only right one and that it is in the interest of the world to destroy all signs of deviation. I see in the low countries a growing tendency to flirt with the old monological discourse that was the hegemony of Christendom. 'Perhaps God is not dead and perhaps we should not be afraid to defend our special truth and go for Jesus', I hear now and then. To me it is like the old Chinese who did not realise the world is round and called their country The Empire of the Middle. Erik From 05jkirk at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 15:25:15 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:25:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] On Wanton Destruction (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008301cd9776$6e44a520$4acdef60$@gmail.com> The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali were also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a small African country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.: " West African Islam has been deeply influenced by Sufism, the mystical branch of Islam that favours a metaphorical interpretation of the Qur'an and focuses on the spiritual development of the individual. West African Sufism is also known for its cult of the Marabouts, 'enlightened' individuals who mediate between God and humankind and who are also worshipped after they die. The groups who have now seized power in northern Mali are followers of a very different movement: fundamentalist Salafism from Saudi Arabia. Their brand of Islam has no historical roots in West Africa and it rejects Sufism and the mystical veneration of saints as a heresy. It is the fundamentalist Islam imported from Saudi Arabia and its animosity towards Sufism that has led to the tragic destruction of irreplaceable symbols of West Africa's cultural heritage. Salafist literalists have already destroyed at least three historical mausoleums and they say they intend to raze them all to the ground. Historic mosques and libraries with manuscripts are not safe from these barbarians either. The manuscripts would fetch a fortune on the black market. There is a risk that important testimonies of a rich African scholarly tradition will disappear forever. ... European historians long claimed that Africa had no written history or intellectual tradition and that the first light of civilization arrived there with the European colonization. But if there is one city in Africa that dispels this myth, it is Timbuktu. [...]Timbuktu is best known for its historic mosques and mausoleums, where Sufi saints are entombed. But only recently did people realize that, aside from a centre of trade, the city was also a significant centre of intellectual life. In the late 1990s, an international research team found a number of private libraries where prominent families from Timbuktu kept tens of thousands of medieval manuscripts. Written in Arabic and in African languages, the manuscripts showed the world that 13th-century West African scholars were deeply engaged in the study of religious subjects but also logic, mathematics, astronomy, medicine and natural sciences. ...Once again extreme fundamentalists are endangering history! Just as the Catholic Church destroyed Maya texts and the Taleban destroyed Buddhist sites..these pigs are endangering a rich cultural history by their moronic attitudes." (from article, http://lobotero.com/2012/07/30/destruction-in-mali/ ) See also http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/world/africa/mali-shrines-destroyed The article is about the latest expression of religious sectarian destruction of writings or texts. The article says nothing about how the Salafis justify such destruction, but my readings elsewhere on ultra-fundamentalist Muslim sects tell me that, just as Sufi saint shrines represent idol worship, so does the protection of non Koranic (non-Sunni) religious texts. These are deemed to be blasphemy. Just as death is dealt out to persons accused of blasphemy, so it is to texts deemed the same. Joanna From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Sep 21 01:47:46 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 03:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] la times piece on Denkyo Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <505B84EF.6020206@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <72418D80A3D046CD89226E2F0C2702BB@Dan> A chatty sendup in the LATimes on Denkyo Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi, now 105, celebrating his 50 years in California. Includes a short video clip. Mentions Leonard Cohen but only alludes to a Brown University prof without giving his name (Hal Roth). http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0921-zen-monk-20120921,0,445916.story Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Sep 21 07:19:00 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:19:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] la times piece on Denkyo Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi In-Reply-To: <72418D80A3D046CD89226E2F0C2702BB@Dan> References: <1348169675.2718.YahooMailNeo@web112609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1348169767.94789.YahooMailNeo@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <505B84EF.6020206@xs4all.nl> <72418D80A3D046CD89226E2F0C2702BB@Dan> Message-ID: <56EE416E-13FD-4052-B30C-EF48F2C8064D@unm.edu> On Sep 21, 2012, at 1:47 AM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > A chatty sendup in the LATimes on Denkyo Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi, now 105, celebrating his 50 years in California. I'm not sure I would characterize the article as a send-up. As I understand that expression, a send-up is something that mocks or ridicules or parodies, and this piece does none of those things. It is, however, chatty. A couple of summers ago, when Sasaki Roshi was giving talks at the annual summer seminar on Buddhism, co-sponsored by Bodhi Manda Zen Center and the department of philosophy at University of New Mexico, Roshi tumbled to the ground on his way to the lecture hall. Everyone gasped in horror as they saw him fall and bump his head on the ground. His attendants picked him up, and undaunted he continued to the lecture room. During his talk, which as always was a rambling discourse on relationships, he quipped that this morning he and the earth were so glad to see each other that they rushed toward each other to embrace. When he is at the seminars, students love hearing Sasaki-roshi's talks. I think they find it fascinating to see a man over 100 years in age, and I know they delight in hearing him say what fools their professors are. (He is right of course.) As I understand it, next summer's professors will be Victor Hori and Ken Kraft. As usual, Prof. John Taber is organizing the academic side of the program. Will Sasaki-roshi be there? Well, as Zen practitioners in New Mexico like to say, "?Qui?n sabe?" Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy The University of New Mexico Web definitions A parody (also called send-up, spoof or lampoon), in contemporary usage, is a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_Up From 05jkirk at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 12:36:20 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:36:20 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] test Message-ID: <007201cd9827$ffe77dc0$ffb67940$@gmail.com> test From aryacitta at hotmail.com Sat Sep 22 10:57:39 2012 From: aryacitta at hotmail.com (David Living) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 16:57:39 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali were >also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a small African >country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.:Yet they will be shocked and hurt when others start burning their mosques. Aryacitta From 05jkirk at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 11:14:27 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:14:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia Message-ID: <000901cd98e5$ba0d02c0$2e270840$@gmail.com> Natch--they are the PURE. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of David Living Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 10:58 AM To: BuddhaL Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia >The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali >were also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a small >African country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.:Yet they will be shocked and hurt when others start burning their mosques. Aryacitta _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Sep 22 17:26:41 2012 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt steinmetz) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 19:26:41 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> On 9/22/2012 12:57 PM, David Living wrote: >> The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali were >> also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a small African >> country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.:Yet they will be shocked and hurt when others start burning their mosques. > But the fact is that no one is burning mosques. Well, except for Muslims, of course, who like to burn (or preferably blow up, even more preferably, when filled with other Muslims) mosques that they consider to be the wrong kind of mosques. On the other hand, the things that non-Muslim people are doing that Muslims find so offensive are things like: Writing books (like Salman Rushdie's new memoir) Making documentaries (like Tom Holland's Islam: The Untold Story, for BBC) Writing timely feature articles (like Ayaan Hisri Ali's recent piece in Newsweek) Drawing cartoons (like those that recently appeared in Charlie Hebdo) When will we see "moderate" Muslims protesting against the outrages committed by their co-religionists? Curt Steinmetz From caodemarte at yahoo.com Sat Sep 22 18:41:42 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (Gerald McLoughlin) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 20:41:42 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> When do Muslims protest such outrages? When do Muslim intellectuals condemn such outrages? All the time. On Sep 22, 2012, at 7:26 PM, curt steinmetz wrote: > On 9/22/2012 12:57 PM, David Living wrote: >>> The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali were >>> also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a small African >>> country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.:Yet they will be shocked and hurt when others start burning their mosques. > > But the fact is that no one is burning mosques. Well, except for Muslims, of course, who like to burn (or preferably blow up, even more preferably, when filled with other Muslims) mosques that they consider to be the wrong kind of mosques. > > On the other hand, the things that non-Muslim people are doing that Muslims find so offensive are things like: > > Writing books (like Salman Rushdie's new memoir) > > Making documentaries (like Tom Holland's Islam: The Untold Story, for BBC) > > Writing timely feature articles (like Ayaan Hisri Ali's recent piece in Newsweek) > > Drawing cartoons (like those that recently appeared in Charlie Hebdo) > > When will we see "moderate" Muslims protesting against the outrages committed by their co-religionists? > > Curt Steinmetz > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From 05jkirk at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 22:09:53 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:09:53 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <002201cd9941$4a40b110$dec21330$@gmail.com> On 9/22/2012 12:57 PM, David Living wrote: >> The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali >> were also Into destroying libraries attached to them. This, in a >> small African country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.:Yet they will be shocked and hurt when others start burning their mosques. > But the fact is that no one is burning mosques. Well, except for Muslims, of course, who like to burn (or preferably blow up, even more preferably, when filled with other Muslims) mosques that they consider to be the wrong kind of mosques. On the other hand, the things that non-Muslim people are doing that Muslims find so offensive are things like: Writing books (like Salman Rushdie's new memoir) Making documentaries (like Tom Holland's Islam: The Untold Story, for BBC) Writing timely feature articles (like Ayaan Hisri Ali's recent piece in Newsweek) Drawing cartoons (like those that recently appeared in Charlie Hebdo) When will we see "moderate" Muslims protesting against the outrages committed by their co-religionists? Curt Steinmetz _______________________________________________ Indeed........when? I hope however that you noticed that Libyan militias who are against al Qaedas (the ones who saw to the attack on our embassy and murder of our ambassador and his colleagues) are trying now to run them out of Bengahzi? A shred of hope? jo From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Sep 22 22:10:25 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:10:25 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Gerald McLoughlin wrote: > When do Muslims protest such outrages? When do Muslim intellectuals condemn such outrages? > All the time. This has certainly been my experience. But I expect Curt wants the moderate Muslims to come knock on his door and complain to him in person about their more fanatical coreligionists, just as he undoubtedly looks up his Muslim friends to complain about fanatical Buddhists. Richard From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 22 23:46:23 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 07:46:23 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505EA22F.8070800@xs4all.nl> Op 23-09-12 06:10, Richard Hayes schreef: > On Sep 22, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Gerald McLoughlin wrote: > >> When do Muslims protest such outrages? When do Muslim intellectuals condemn such outrages? >> All the time. > This has certainly been my experience. But I expect Curt wants the moderate Muslims to come knock on his door and complain to him in person about their more fanatical coreligionists, just as he undoubtedly looks up his Muslim friends to complain about fanatical Buddhists. That's easy, just put on facebook that Curt organises a reconciliation party http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/project-x-parties-busted-in-california-mansions/ Project x Steinmetz,,. Erik From c_castell at yahoo.com Sun Sep 23 02:22:54 2012 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 01:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <002201cd9941$4a40b110$dec21330$@gmail.com> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <002201cd9941$4a40b110$dec21330$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348388574.43357.YahooMailNeo@web111307.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> instead of saying Muslims do this and that it would be better to say: SOME fundamentalist Muslims do this and that Catalina ________________________________ From: jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia On 9/22/2012 12:57 PM, David Living wrote: >> The Salafis who have been destroying ancient Sufi saint tombs in Mali >> were also Into destroying libraries attached to them.? This, in a >> small African country that somehow preserved tons of ancient mss.:Yet they will be shocked and hurt when others start burning their mosques. > But the fact is that no one is burning mosques. Well, except for Muslims, of course, who like to burn (or preferably blow up, even more preferably, when filled with other Muslims) mosques that they consider to be the wrong kind of mosques. On the other hand, the things that non-Muslim people are doing that Muslims find so offensive are things like: Writing books (like Salman Rushdie's new memoir) Making documentaries (like Tom Holland's Islam: The Untold Story, for BBC) Writing timely feature articles (like Ayaan Hisri Ali's recent piece in Newsweek) Drawing cartoons (like those that recently appeared in Charlie Hebdo) When will we see "moderate" Muslims protesting against the outrages committed by their co-religionists? Curt Steinmetz _______________________________________________ Indeed........when? I hope however that you noticed that Libyan militias who are against al Qaedas (the ones who saw to the attack on our embassy and murder of our ambassador and his colleagues) are trying now to run them out of Bengahzi? A shred of hope?? jo _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Sep 23 07:49:39 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 07:49:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <1348388574.43357.YahooMailNeo@web111307.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <002201cd9941$4a40b110$dec21330$@gmail.com> <1348388574.43357.YahooMailNeo@web111307.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2EC44B78-F5A5-4042-BB06-CDB4FD01A8F8@unm.edu> On Sep 23, 2012, at 2:22 AM, Catalina wrote: > instead of saying Muslims do this and that it would be better to say: SOME fundamentalist Muslims do this and that Or one could say SOME human beings are intolerant and impose their will on other sentient beings and vote for governments that put send their armies to places where they are not welcome. From c_castell at yahoo.com Sun Sep 23 09:10:59 2012 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 08:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <2EC44B78-F5A5-4042-BB06-CDB4FD01A8F8@unm.edu> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <002201cd9941$4a40b110$dec21330$@gmail.com> <1348388574.43357.YahooMailNeo@web111307.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2EC44B78-F5A5-4042-BB06-CDB4FD01A8F8@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1348413059.80714.YahooMailNeo@web111310.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> totally agree ________________________________ From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia On Sep 23, 2012, at 2:22 AM, Catalina wrote: > instead of saying Muslims do this and that it would be better to say: SOME fundamentalist Muslims do this and that Or one could say SOME human beings are intolerant and impose their will on other sentient beings and vote for governments that put send their armies to places where they are not welcome. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Sep 23 21:44:49 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 23:44:49 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org><430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> That there are different muslims is only half the story. Buddha-l remains one of the bastions of denial of what is taking place in the real world. Why label anyone willing to acknowledge that Islam has a long violent streak as Islamophobes. Cheap way to duck an argument. While the ridiculous "Innocence of Islam" video has garnered all the attention and deadly riots, the riots only reinforce the image of Islam that Muslim videos made by Muslims for Muslims about Muhammed present: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDPAVo-J-g That's the trailer. If you've got the stomach and an hour you won't get back, the whole hypnotic thing is also on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blxHYZfX78k That's their self-expression of their idealized self-image. How are different muslims treated by different muslims? One can no longer hide behind the delusion that Islamists are a tiny minority in an otherwise moderate Islamic world. The arab spring has put the lie to that -- islamists get the majority of votes. Yay, democracy! We know how Pakistani sunnis treat their co-national shiite brethren. http://tinyurl.com/ccqmrmx http://tinyurl.com/9mc8th4 http://tinyurl.com/93eqqnw and so on. And how the Ahmadis are faring there as well: Ahmadi (Ahmadiyya) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bqtQE-g36E http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2010/0528/Why-Taliban-attacks-two-Muslim-minority-mosques-in-Pakistan "Members of the Ahmadi sect were officially declared non-Muslims in 1974 and are generally the most persecuted of Pakistan?s minority groups." The Alawites, having enjoyed a brief moment of prosperity under the Assads in Syria, are facing a bloodbath once Assad is removed from power (no one questions *whether* that will happen, only question is how severe will it be). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawi http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2012/09/20/the-alawites-toohave-a-story-to-tell/ Some additional Muslim majorities in Muslim countries: Kharijites (Arabic: ?????? Khaw?rij, literally "those who went out" "...They first emerged in the late 7th century AD... are distinct from Sunni Muslims and Shi?a Muslims....particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir [infidels], whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites Azeris (esp. in Iran, where they are the largest minority) http://tinyurl.com/92l7l54 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8516682.stm You may remember some attention to the Yazdis in northern Iraq, who were facing some ethnic cleansing: Yazidi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis "The Turkish Yazidi community declined precipitously during the 20th century. By 1982 it had decreased to about 30,000, and in 2009 there were fewer than 500. Most Turkish Yazidi have emigrated to Europe, particularly Germany; those who remain reside primarily in their former heartland of Tur Abdin. Population estimates for the communities in Georgia and Armenia vary, but they too have declined severely... This mass emigration has resulted in the establishment of large diaspora communities abroad. The most significant of these is in Germany, which now has a Yazidi community of over 40,000. Most are from Turkey and more recently Iraq, and live in the western states of North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony. Since 2008 Sweden has seen sizable growth in its Yazidi emigrant community, which had grown to around 4,000 by 2010, and a smaller community exists in the Netherlands. Other diaspora groups live in Belgium, Denmark, France, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, and Australia; these have a total population of probably less than 5,000.... "the Yazidi have been accused of devil worship. Because of this ...they have been oppressed by their Muslim neighbors. Treatment of Yazidis was exceptionally harsh during the rule of the Ottoman Empire during the 18th and the first half of 19th century and their numbers dwindled under Ottoman rule both in Syria and Iraq. Massacres at the hand of Ottoman Turks and Muslim Kurdish princes almost wiped out their community in the 19th century. Several punitive expeditions were organized against the Yazidis by the Turkish governors (W?li) of Diyarbakir, Mosul and Baghdad. These operations were legitimized by fat?wa from Islamic clerics. The objective of these persecutions was the forced conversion of Yazidis to the Sunni Hanafi Islam of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Recent controversies "On August 14, 2007, some 500 Yazidis were killed in a coordinated series of bombings that became the deadliest suicide attack since the Iraq War began. On August 13, 2009, at least 20 people were killed and 30 wounded in a double suicide bombing in northern Iraq, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official said. Two suicide bombers with explosive vests carried out the attack at a cafe in Sinjar, a town west of Mosul. In Sinjar, many townspeople are members of the Yazidi minority." Not uncommon stories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze "The Druze (Arabic: ????, derz? or durz??, plural ????, dur?z, Hebrew: ??????? druzim) are a monotheistic religious community, found primarily in Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan, which emerged during the 11th century from Ismailism school of Shia Islam.... "The Unitarian Druze movement, which existed in the Fatimid Caliphate, acknowledged az-Zahir as the Caliph, but followed Hamzah as its Imam. The young Caliph's regent, Sitt al-Mulk, ordered the army to destroy the movement in 1021. At the same time, Bah?'a ad-D?n as-Samuki was assigned the leadership of the Unitarian Movement by Hamza Bin Ali. "For the next seven years, the Druze faced extreme persecution by the new caliph, al-Zahir, who wanted to eradicate the faith. This was the result of a power struggle inside of the Fatimid empire in which the Druze were viewed with suspicion because of their refusal to recognize the new Caliph, Ali az-Zahir, as their Imam. Many spies, mainly the followers of Ad-Darazi, joined the Unitarian movement in order to infiltrate the Druze community. The spies set about agitating trouble and soiling the reputation of the Druze. This resulted in friction with the new caliph who clashed militarily with the Druze community. The clashes ranged from Antioch to Alexandria, where tens of thousands of Druze were slaughtered by the Fatimid army. The largest massacre was at Antioch, where 5,000 Druze religious leaders were killed, followed by that of Aleppo. As a result, the faith went underground in hope of survival, as those captured were either forced to renounce their faith or be killed. Druze survivors "were found principally in southern Lebanon and Syria." In 1038, two years after the death of al-Zahir, the Druze movement was able to resume because the new leadership that replaced him had friendly political ties with at least one prominent Druze leader... "In 1043 Baha'uddin declared that the sect would no longer accept new pledges, and since that time proselytization has been prohibited. [And the following is for Richard -- who thinks the US is the root of all evil. All the following happened before there was a US] "Persecution during the Mamluk and Ottoman period "Having cleared Syria of the Franks, the Mamluk Sultans of Egypt turned their attention to the schismatic Muslims of Syria. In 1305, after the issuing of a fatwa by the scholar Ibn Taymiyyah calling for jihad against all non-Sunni Muslims like the Druze, Alawites, Ismaili, and twelver Shiites, al-Malik al-Nasir inflicted a disastrous defeat on the Druze at Keserwan and forced outward compliance on their part to orthodox Sunni Islam. Later, under the Ottoman Turks, they were severely attacked at Ayn-?awfar in 1585 after the Ottomans claimed that they assaulted their caravans near Tripoli. "Consequently, the 16th and 17th centuries were to witness a succession of armed Druze rebellions against the Ottomans, countered by repeated Ottoman punitive expeditions against the Chouf, in which the Druze population of the area was severely depleted and many villages destroyed. These military measures, severe as they were, did not succeed in reducing the local Druze to the required degree of subordination. This led the Ottoman government to agree to an arrangement whereby the different nahiyes (districts) of the Chouf would be granted in iltizam ("fiscal concession") to one of the region's amirs, or leading chiefs, leaving the maintenance of law and order and the collection of its taxes in the area in the hands of the appointed amir. This arrangement was to provide the cornerstone for the privileged status which ultimately came to be enjoyed by the whole of Mount Lebanon in Ottoman Syria, Druze and Christian areas alike." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekta%C5%9Fi "The Bektashi Order ... is an Islamic Shi'a Alevi Sufi order (tariqat) founded in the 13th century by the Persian saint Haji Bektash Veli." "After the foundation of republic, Kemal Atat?rk banned all Sufi orders and shut down the lodges in 1925. Consequently, the Bektashi leadership moved to Albania and established their headquarters in the city of Tirana. Among the most famous followers of Bektashi Sufisim in the 19th century Balkans were Ali Pasha and Naim Frasheri. "Despite the negative effect of this ban on Bektashi culture, most Bektashis in Turkey have been generally supportive of secularism to this day, since these reforms have relatively relaxed the religious intolerance that had historically been shown against them by the official Sunni establishment." "...In Albania the Bektashi community declared its separation from the Sunni community and they were recognized ever after as a distinct Islamic sect rather than a branch of Sunni Islam, as are most other Sufi orders. Bektashism continued to flourish until the Second World War. After the communists took power in 1945, several babas and dervishes were executed and a gradual constriction of Bektashi influence began." Islam does contain some potent seeds of universalism. What happens when those seeds begin to germinate? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinarism Ishikism, [pron: 'Ishik-ism] (Turkish: I??k??l?k or I??k Alevili?i), also known as Chinarism or Ishik Alevism. "Ishikis consider themselves to be esotericists, claiming that Alevism is Esotericism itself, meaning that they identify themselves with every type of esotericism in history (e.g. Jewish esotericists, Christian esotericists, Islamic and Pagan esotericism etc.) "They claim that Alevism is the oldest religion in the world, that has changed shapes throughout time. This 'First and True Religion' of the world, is claimed to have been the main source for all other religions and beliefs in the world." "Traditionalist Alevis have strongly opposed the Ishikis, who they consider as people who are creating a completely new religion, or sometimes as undercover agents, trying to disrupt Alevi unity. Ishikis are also criticized for being extremely political... The Ishik movement have succeeded in becoming very influential in important and powerful Alevi organizations. The Alevi Confederation of Europe (AABK) for instance, has abandoned its traditional Alevi beliefs in 2006, which it replaced with a marginal Ishiki type of understanding." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurufiyya "Hurufism (Arabic: ??????? hurufiyya, adjective form hurufi literal meaning "letters" [of the alphabet]) was a mystical kabbalistic Sufi doctrine, which spread in areas of western Persia, Anatolia and Azerbaijan in later 14th - early 15th century. "In the mid-1370s N?im? (Fazlallah) started to propagate his teachings all over Persia and Azerbaijan. While living in Tabriz, he gained an elite following in the Jalayirid court, where the writing of his main work, Jawidan-Al-Kabir, allegedly took place. At that time he was still in the mainstream of Sufi tradition. Later, he did move towards more esoteric spirituality, and, failing to convert Timur, was executed in 1394 near Alinja castle in Nakhchivan by the ruler's son Miran Shah. The uprising of Hurufis, who had gathered a large following, was crushed in Azerbaijan, but the popular movement survived for another decade or so in different guises." [While Hurufis did not survive, many of their teachings continued to be transmitted, and were influential on the Babis, who, despite being persecuted, influenced Baha'i.] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1bism The B?bi Faith (Persian: ???? ??? B?b? h? ) is a religious movement that flourished in Persia from 1844 to 1852, then lingered on in exile in the Ottoman Empire (especially Cyprus) as well as underground. Its founder was Siyyid `Al? Muhammad Shirazi, who took the title B?b?meaning "Gate"?from a Shi'a theological term. Unlike other Islamic messianic movements, the B?b? movement signalled a break with Islam and attempted to start a new religious system. While the B?b? movement was violently opposed and crushed by the clerical and government establishments in the country in the mid 1850s, the B?b? movement led to the founding of the Bah?'? Faith which sees the religion brought by the B?b as a predecessor to their own religion, and gives a renewed significance to the B?b? movement. As for Baha'i under Islam: http://tinyurl.com/92n5mw8 Which brings us to how NON-muslim minorities fare under Islamic rule. I don't think I need to document the situation of the Copts in Egypts, or Maronites in Lebanon. An excellent overview: Human rights and minorities in Islamic states: http://tinyurl.com/8jylf7u Then again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi Parsi, "...the present-day Parsis descend from a group of Zoroastrians of Iran who immigrated to India during the 10th century AD, to avoid persecution by Muslim invaders who were in the process of conquering Persia/Iran. At the time of the Arab invasion of Persia, the dominant religion of the region was Zoroastrianism. The Iranians rebelled against the Arab invaders for almost 200 years; in Iran this period is now known as the "Two Centuries of Silence" or "Period of Silence". After many failed attempts to free the country from Arab domination, the Iranians were forced to either pay heavy taxes (Jizya) or to convert to Islam, the latter being the ultimate goal of the new rulers and thus the easier way. During this time many Iranians who are now called Parsi rejected both options and instead chose to take refuge by fleeing from Iran to India. "Their long presence in the region distinguishes the Parsis from the Iranis, who are more recent arrivals, and who represent the smaller of the two Indian-Zoroastrian communities." Sikh, http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam3.html http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Martyrdom_of_Guru_Arjan The kirpan, or dagger adult male Sikhs are obligated to carry, was instituted by the 10th guru, Gobinth Singh, in response to Muslim attacks and abuses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan Hindus (WARNING: The photo is as graphic as the reality it reports) http://tinyurl.com/9xkfu8j If one trolls the websites that deign to discuss such things, the apologists try to make reality go away by arguing on the one-hand that one shouldn't use the current situation of conflicts to think about the past (so let's imagine everything was peachy keen and tranquil back then; this tends to be the approach touted by academics), and on the other, don't drag the violent past into thinking about today (those were nasty times, we're all so much more enlightened these days). Combined one can fantasize no violence occurred in the past or present (except western, esp. US imperialism). Time to stop sucking on that teat -- it's run dry, overshadowed by reality. Joanne and Curt had it right. The rest of you are trying to visualize a muslim-pure-land that has never existed and doesn't exist now. And unless you call the Muslim world to task now, it never will. This is what concerted intl attention challenging the status quo there can sometimes accomplish: http://tinyurl.com/8hukysh Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Sep 23 21:58:30 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 21:58:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> Message-ID: <3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu> On Sep 23, 2012, at 9:44 PM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Buddha-l remains one of the bastions of denial of what is taking place in the real world. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that what you describe in your message is reality. What precisely would you recommend that a Buddhist do in the light of that reality? How would someone who agrees with your vision of reality act differently from those whom you characterize as being in denial? From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Sep 23 22:05:46 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 00:05:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org><430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com><1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> > Let us say, for the sake of argument, that what you describe in your > message is reality. What precisely would you recommend that a Buddhist do > in the light of that reality? How would someone who agrees with your > vision of reality act differently from those whom you characterize as > being in denial? Did you make it to the last paragraph? Dan From randall.bernard.jones at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 22:21:04 2012 From: randall.bernard.jones at gmail.com (Randall Jones) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 23:21:04 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu> <4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> Message-ID: <505fdfbb.891a3c0a.374a.ffffe8bc@mx.google.com> At 11:05 PM 9/23/2012, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >Did you make it to the last paragraph? I did, but still found myself wondering what you might suggest individual Buddhists individually do. I would appreciate your fuller thoughts. Randall Jones From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Sep 23 22:23:19 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:23:19 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu> <4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> Message-ID: <6455543F-0251-4CD4-84EA-95C614725D0E@unm.edu> On Sep 23, 2012, at 10:05 PM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Did you make it to the last paragraph? Yes. Now I have answered your question. Are you willing to answer mine? From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Sep 23 23:10:33 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 01:10:33 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org><430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com><1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan><3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu><4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> <505fdfbb.891a3c0a.374a.ffffe8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <01EAC4ADDD2C44F3B7639754671679A4@Dan> >>Did you make it to the last paragraph? > > I did, but still found myself wondering what you might suggest individual > Buddhists individually do. I would appreciate your fuller thoughts. > Randall Jones Radically changing the ingrained culture(s) of a major swath of the planet earth is not something an individual of any persuasion can individually do, unfortunately. Group unity, focus, persistence and courage will help. On an individual level, nonetheless, Buddhism teaches that the core Buddhist pursuit is applying the (medical) pathological model: symptom, diagnosis, prognosis, and treatment plan. Buddhist call that the Four Noble Truths (suffering, its causes, curability, and methods). First step is to acknowledge and take cognizance of the symptoms. The next is to diagnose the problem. There can be many diagnoses -- but those most etiologically rooted will in the long run probably prove the most significant. First and second step would be to follow the links I provided, or comparable information on the history and culture(s). There's a lot of white noise and self-congratulatory insularity that one can find online. Differentiate the wheat from the chaff, the symptom-denial from the usefully diagnostic. If there seem to be too many links in what I sent, one might want to start with these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDPAVo-J-g http://tinyurl.com/92n5mw8 http://tinyurl.com/8jylf7u Once you have clarity on a diagnosis -- which Buddhism will remind you is a *causal* understanding of the process producing the symptoms -- then determine what can be done about it. Is it curable? How can it be modified for the better? The "it" will turn out not to be anything singular, but a multitude of different things. Meditate on key concepts, e.g., "hegemony." What does it mean to muslims (of all stripes), and how does it play out throughout the theoretical, practical, political, and spiritual realms, in all the particular, distinct places and situations in which it occurs (i.e., serious meditation). When a clear path to remedying this (e.g., taking on "hegemony" as a particularly dangerous form of atmavada), then implement it. Reward the peaceful, friendly, warm aspects; befriend Muslims. Learn from them, but have enough confidence to know that they, too, can learn some important lessons from you (if that's not the case, you are not going to be very effective). Kindness is more powerful than cruelty, but don't underestimate the risks, nor the effectiveness of power judiciously applied. There is a good deal more online about the "Blasphemy case: Muslim cleric accused of framing Christian girl" http://tinyurl.com/8hukysh Individually one would not be able to do much to help her, or all the others caught in her not atypical situation (similar arrangements also happen to young boys in Afghanistan and Pakistan becoming the "companion" of men, but somehow international umbrage gets more riled when the victims are female). But concerted international attention can shine some light on these roaches thriving in the dark under their rocks. Honor killings, female circumcision, stoning and hangings for adultery, and a host of other things that should be considered unacceptable in the 21st c. can be targeted and become the focus of sustained campaigns. All that helps. But a Buddhist should look for underlying causes, and not be distracted by all these things as if they were isolated from each other. Look for the common underlying issues, and work on solutions. Then get others involved. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Sep 23 23:12:14 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 23:12:14 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> Message-ID: <5C51201F-81F8-4265-977A-A06E8B79A3BC@unm.edu> On Sep 23, 2012, at 9:44 PM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Joanne and Curt had it right. Both of them say many things. What in particular are you referring to? > The rest of you are trying to visualize a muslim-pure-land that has never existed and doesn't exist now. I would not characterize anything I have seen on Buddha-l in that way. What I have seen is a simple appeal to mindfulness that nothing is served by focusing on the fanaticism and destructiveness of one particular group of human beings when there are destructive thoughts and actions manifesting everywhere in the world. > And unless you call the Muslim world to task now, it never will. For those of us who do not live in the Muslim world, and who have had positive experiences with the Muslims we have met in the world in which we do live, might our time not be better spent dealing with the forms of greed, hatred and delusion that are making people suffer in our own neighborhoods? Quite frankly, the amount of pain and suffering that I see where I live is much more likely to be a consequence of the thoughts and actions of profit-oriented corporations and the politicians who support them within a 100-mile radius of where I live than it is to be a consequence of narrow-minded bigots in either Pakistan or Israel. Oddly enough, both my Buddhist instincts and my Quaker instincts are to act locally, while doing all I can to be aware of what is going on around the world. What, if anything, would you recommend that I do differently from what I am now doing? From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Sep 23 23:12:47 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 01:12:47 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org><430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com><1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan><3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu><4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> <6455543F-0251-4CD4-84EA-95C614725D0E@unm.edu> Message-ID: <7A25A6AA1A334ACD8048D8CC41858D75@Dan> >> Did you make it to the last paragraph? > > Yes. > > Now I have answered your question. Are you willing to answer mine? The last paragraph gave a link to a case where international attention was effective in exposing and reversing a culturally ingrained form of lethal repression. I'm sorry that you seem to be too dimwitted to pick up the hint. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Sep 23 23:48:59 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 01:48:59 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org><430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com><1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <5C51201F-81F8-4265-977A-A06E8B79A3BC@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5A5134C6ECE648E1A3D0B65C68A488F9@Dan> >> Joanne and Curt had it right. > > Both of them say many things. What in particular are you referring to? Check the archives for their most recent comments on the topic. >> The rest of you are trying to visualize a muslim-pure-land that has never >> existed and doesn't exist now. > > I would not characterize anything I have seen on Buddha-l in that way. > What I have seen is a simple appeal to mindfulness that nothing is served > by focusing on the fanaticism and destructiveness of one particular group > of human beings when there are destructive thoughts and actions > manifesting everywhere in the world. This a common but ineffective tactic for neutralizing (aka denying) the facts, relativizing them to insignificance. The Sunday NYTimes had an interactive section called "The New World" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/the-new-world.html?HP which attempted, with a map and some discussion, to show how in the post-coldwar period, liquid borders (nations presently united becoming separate, or forming new subdivisions, etc.) are the new political dynamic. Of the eleven hotspots, eight are in the muslim world (the exceptions are Congo, Belgium, and Siberia). Pretending it's the same everywhere ("it" being the human condition) is a form of self-blindness. > For those of us who do not live in the Muslim world, [...] might our time > not be better spent dealing with the forms of greed, hatred and delusion > that are making people suffer in our own neighborhoods? This is not an either/or question. Do both. (those greedy corps. are probably already making deals -- or hoping to -- in that part of the world.) You can deal with the realities of the Muslim world now, or wait for them to complicate your local situation. E.g., to take what today might seem an unlikely situation, but in 10 years will be a major concern: the current university economic model is not working -- students incur too much debt, schools need too much money, which does not go to teachers' salaries, but to ever increasing bureaucratic bulge, which they will soon only be able to raise from donors, such as China, Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi -- who have been chomping at the bit to bequeath endless $$ on many schools, the ones with some modicum of integrity left still resisting, but not for long; needless to say, the money comes with strings; many of the mosques in the US are funded by Wahhabi associations in Arabia, and many of the imams are trained in wahhabi theology. If that's not the case in your neighborhood (yet), consider yourself fortunate. Or this sort of thing: http://tinyurl.com/9vqqfh9 But one doesn't have to become alarmist, or wait to see how close it comes. The injustices already being inflicted elsewhere deserve attention and action. Of course, if one has one's hands full dealing with local corporate shenanigans, fine. But then don't lecture others about what to think or do about international situations. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Sep 24 01:48:04 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 03:48:04 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org><430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com><1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan><5C51201F-81F8-4265-977A-A06E8B79A3BC@unm.edu> <5A5134C6ECE648E1A3D0B65C68A488F9@Dan> Message-ID: <05DB52FEE585468ABE585D399FA39934@Dan> Joanna will be unhappy about my typo -- >>> Joanne and Curt had it right. My apologies. I'm having a long talk with my naughty typing fingers right now! Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Sep 24 06:47:27 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 06:47:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <7A25A6AA1A334ACD8048D8CC41858D75@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <3DD57550-DC71-49B4-A803-CD4F09C5D80F@unm.edu> <4CC83E834CD344A4818FE91A909B59A5@Dan> <6455543F-0251-4CD4-84EA-95C614725D0E@unm.edu> <7A25A6AA1A334ACD8048D8CC41858D75@Dan> Message-ID: On Sep 23, 2012, at 11:12 PM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > I'm sorry that you seem to be too dimwitted to pick up the hint. Ah, your gentle diplomacy always inspires. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Sep 24 07:03:23 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 07:03:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <5A5134C6ECE648E1A3D0B65C68A488F9@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <5C51201F-81F8-4265-977A-A06E8B79A3BC@unm.edu> <5A5134C6ECE648E1A3D0B65C68A488F9@Dan> Message-ID: On Sep 23, 2012, at 11:48 PM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Of course, if one has one's hands full dealing with local corporate shenanigans, fine. But then don't lecture others about what to think or do about international situations. Lecturing is my job. But I restrict my topics to Sanskrit grammar, about which I know something, and Indian Buddhist scholasticism, about which I wish I knew more. There was a time when I thought a list called buddha-l would mostly carry messages about Buddhism rather than endlessly tedious screeds based on people's unfounded fears about our nation's universities being taken over by billionaires from overseas. When I have a craving for that sort of thing I tune in to Rush Limbaugh or Michele Bachmann. Here in my home town I'm more concerned with the virulent and toxic anti-Semitism and Islamophobia manifesting on campus than with many other issues. It seems to me that both there is a connection between the two specific forms of hatred. I see no way of combatting one without also combatting the other. From caodemarte at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 09:54:09 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (Gerald McLoughlin) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:54:09 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <5A5134C6ECE648E1A3D0B65C68A488F9@Dan> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1F441D62E2D74B0B8E1D18D4234F0D75@Dan> <5C51201F-81F8-4265-977A-A06E8B79A3BC@unm.edu> <5A5134C6ECE648E1A3D0B65C68A488F9@Dan> Message-ID: <9E685537-7C28-4CC8-A721-8BBB3913DBA4@yahoo.com> I checked the map. It does make the bizarre assertion that borders seemed fairly fixed (not a Buddhist idea) until recently, but does bring useful, if necessarily selective attention to international affairs. Nothing can be established by the article's choice of one spot over another. What, by the way, is the Muslim world? How does it intersect with the world of Buddhist discussions? On Sep 24, 2012, at 1:48 AM, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: >>> Joanne and Curt had it right. >> >> Both of them say many things. What in particular are you referring to? > > Check the archives for their most recent comments on the topic. > >>> The rest of you are trying to visualize a muslim-pure-land that has never existed and doesn't exist now. >> >> I would not characterize anything I have seen on Buddha-l in that way. What I have seen is a simple appeal to mindfulness that nothing is served by focusing on the fanaticism and destructiveness of one particular group of human beings when there are destructive thoughts and actions manifesting everywhere in the world. > > This a common but ineffective tactic for neutralizing (aka denying) the facts, relativizing them to insignificance. The Sunday NYTimes had an interactive section called "The New World" > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/the-new-world.html?HP > > which attempted, with a map and some discussion, to show how in the post-coldwar period, liquid borders (nations presently united becoming separate, or forming new subdivisions, etc.) are the new political dynamic. Of the eleven hotspots, eight are in the muslim world (the exceptions are Congo, Belgium, and Siberia). Pretending it's the same everywhere ("it" being the human condition) is a form of self-blindness. > >> For those of us who do not live in the Muslim world, [...] might our time not be better spent dealing with the forms of greed, hatred and delusion that are making people suffer in our own neighborhoods? > > This is not an either/or question. Do both. (those greedy corps. are probably already making deals -- or hoping to -- in that part of the world.) You can deal with the realities of the Muslim world now, or wait for them to complicate your local situation. E.g., to take what today might seem an unlikely situation, but in 10 years will be a major concern: the current university economic model is not working -- students incur too much debt, schools need too much money, which does not go to teachers' salaries, but to ever increasing bureaucratic bulge, which they will soon only be able to raise from donors, such as China, Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi -- who have been chomping at the bit to bequeath endless $$ on many schools, the ones with some modicum of integrity left still resisting, but not for long; needless to say, the money comes with strings; many of the mosques in the US are funded by Wahhabi associations in Arabia, and many of the imams are trained in wahhabi theology. If that's not the case in your neighborhood (yet), consider yourself fortunate. > > Or this sort of thing: > http://tinyurl.com/9vqqfh9 > > But one doesn't have to become alarmist, or wait to see how close it comes. The injustices already being inflicted elsewhere deserve attention and action. > > Of course, if one has one's hands full dealing with local corporate shenanigans, fine. But then don't lecture others about what to think or do about international situations. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Sep 24 14:52:45 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 16:52:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia Message-ID: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Gerald McLoughlin writes: >I checked the map. [...] Nothing can be established by the article's choice of one spot over another. Then see if these establish something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_conflicts http://www.conservation.org/warfare/Pages/map.aspx http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17g9hi4f6ep3vjpg/original.jpg (but check the legend and explanations of the last two carefully) If anyone has a clearer map of current conflict hot-spots around the world, please post it. >What, by the way, is the Muslim world? There are about 60 nations which are Muslim (separation of "church" and state is not an option), some for many centuries, some established in the 20th c precisely on the basis of muslim identity (e.g., Pakistan). If you get out a world map and start around Indonesia (the most populous muslim nation in the world) and continue westward through Thailand, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kashmir, western China, Chechnya, Azerbaijan, etc. etc, Iran, the middle east, Balkans, Bosnia, Armenia, north Africa, Somalia, Sudan (but not the recently established South Sudan which is still fighting for its independence from the muslim north, although already granted statehood), Chad, Nigeria, etc., you will have circumscribed the Muslim world (and in countries like Nigeria containing large non-Muslim populations, constant slaughter and outbursts or religious intolerance). You will also have traced something that fits directly on top of the maps above. Not a coincidence. The periphery of the Muslim world -- i.e., where it borders on non-muslim states and populations -- there is violent conflict. >How does it intersect with the world of Buddhist discussions? You might address that to those who introduced the topic (I was a latecomer). But if you need assurances that these conflicts do impact directly on the Buddhist world (about which Buddhist discourse should be concerned), then one has to look at the history of Central Asia (from Iran eastward), and pay attention to how Buddhist communities that thrived for nearly a millennium were eliminated by the onslaught of Islam, which also played a major role in the extinction of Buddhism in its native India. Tibet survived because of its military prowess and general inaccessibility, but found itself surrounded by an Islamic sea (for Tibetan attitudes on Islam, read the Kalacakra). For present day, aside from Bamiyan, etc., there are conflicts in Thailand, etc. China's western frontier is home to Tibetans and muslim Uigurs, whose protests and repression have become conflated in the Chinese mind, although their histories and demands are quite different. And so on. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Sep 24 15:05:30 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:05:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia Message-ID: <26968962.1348520730652.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Richard, >There was a time when I thought a list called buddha-l would mostly carry messages about Buddhism rather than endlessly tedious screeds based on people's unfounded fears about our nation's universities being taken over by billionaires from overseas. When I have a craving for that sort of thing I tune in to Rush Limbaugh or Michele Bachmann. We here in the Northeast have already seen it -- it may take awhile to reach your neck of the woods, but it is coming. As usual, you pretend something doesn't exist by pretending it is right wing paranoia. I guess that sort of strategy is necessary to maintain the illusions... >toxic anti-Semitism and Islamophobia manifesting on campus [...] I see no way of combatting one without also combatting the other. What are you doing about Islamic antisemitism (promoted and proliferated by state media throughout the muslim world)? Inquiring minds would like to know. Let me repeat this question: Why label anyone willing to acknowledge that Islam has a long violent streak as Islamophobes? Now we know the answer. It avoids facing reality or having to provide either evidence or cogent argument. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Sep 24 17:31:06 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:31:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park Message-ID: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> http://www.daily-times.com/ci_21619585/buddhist-stupa-be-moved-from-nm-petroglyph-park Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park ALBUQUERQUE (AP) ? A Buddhist stupa has been order removed from New Mexico's Petroglyph National Monument. The National Park Service said Monday that park service will remove the religious item from the park this week after getting an opinion from the Department of Interior's solicitor general. The solicitor general ruled last month that keeping the Buddhist stupa violates the Constitution on established religion. The agency purchased the ten-foot structure containing Buddhist relics in 1990 after acquiring lands for Petroglyph National Monument. But the group Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility later asked the National Park Service to review the constitutionality of keeping the stupa and the federal land management policies. Rick Frost, spokes for the agency, said the stupa will be given to the Buddhist community in Albuquerque. Richard From 05jkirk at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 18:23:54 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:23:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> Sorry for top posting but it's easier than the opposite. My response here is to the concept of "Muslim world". I hesitate to say anything on this list anymore, because whatever I write is simply ignored by practically everybody on the list, except for Dan and Katherine, but let's at least be critical rather than lazy so far as the phrase 'Muslim world" goes. Historically there have been at least two cultural movements that could be tallied as what some historians (or anthropologists, which I am) might choose to call 'Muslim worlds'. The first one came into existence after the Islamic conquest of then Persia and neighboring areas in the 7th -9th cs CE. As more countries were conquered or their rulers acceded to the new religion, Muslim intelligentsia of those eras wrote accordingly, as if their mission and views covered a broad territory of nations often vastly different from one another. Muslim historians traveled widely and wrote about the different cultures they encountered, while taking satisfaction in the progress Islam had made through conversions and Arab culture. (This can all be reviewed on Wikipedia. I'm not going to take the time to look things up and present links.) In those days, the Middle East could be designated, generally speaking, as a Muslim world. Then, after the European imperialisms of later years, the ideological and cultural ambiance of the old Muslim world began breaking up. (A good example is what happened to the Mughal and other Muslim kingships in South Asia.) Today, as I see it after long study, the 'Muslim world' Dan refers to is an artifact of Saudi Arabian government financial support for missionizing the Wahhabist version of Islam, in their view the only correct Muslim religion/practice. Al Wahhab (18thc) traveled from Arabia widely into southern Asia and spread his views that Islam was corrupt and had to be purified. That impulse continues under today's Saudi rulers, who have successfully spread it far and wide, to every single nation that consider themselves to be Muslim. (Money talks, in this case to architects, clerical establishments, and to rich elites seeking prestige in the form of mosque and madressah building, plus stocking these with Wahhabist clerics from Saudi.) Thousands of people in various countries following their traditions, according to the trajectory Dan laid out as it were, were forced to stop doing whatever they had been doing for centuries and start doing religion the Wahhabi way. Thus, today we have a new 'Muslim world." It is very different from the old original one. It's a world that has trashed elaborate cultures and gender relations, traditional arts, as well as relations between the holders of power and their subjects--via shari'a. Joanna _______________________ On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:53 PM [........] >What, by the way, is the Muslim world? There are about 60 nations which are Muslim (separation of "church" and state is not an option), some for many centuries, some established in the 20th c precisely on the basis of muslim identity (e.g., Pakistan). If you get out a world map and start around Indonesia (the most populous muslim nation in the world) and continue westward through Thailand, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kashmir, western China, Chechnya, Azerbaijan, etc. etc, Iran, the middle east, Balkans, Bosnia, Armenia, north Africa, Somalia, Sudan (but not the recently established South Sudan which is still fighting for its independence from the muslim north, although already granted statehood), Chad, Nigeria, etc., you will have circumscribed the Muslim world (and in countries like Nigeria containing large non-Muslim populations, constant slaughter and outbursts or religious intolerance). You will also have traced something that fits directly on top of the maps above. Not a coincidence. The periphery of the Muslim world -- i.e., where it borders on non-muslim states and populations -- there is violent conflict. From stroble at hawaii.edu Tue Sep 25 03:43:08 2012 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (Andy Stroble) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 23:43:08 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> References: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:23 PM, jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry for top posting but it's easier than the opposite. > My response here is to the concept of "Muslim world". > > I hesitate to say anything on this list anymore, because whatever I write > is > simply ignored by practically everybody on the list, except for Dan and > Katherine, but let's at least be critical rather than lazy so far as the > phrase 'Muslim world" goes. > > Sorry, Jo, I am only ignoring you because I am ignoring Dan. And I may > have communists under my bed. But I did just watch a Indonesian flash-mob > doing Gangnam Style, many of the females in hijab, so I am not all that > worried. > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From brburl at charter.net Tue Sep 25 07:03:18 2012 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 08:03:18 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lists in Pali In-Reply-To: <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> References: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3R3M1k00F1hhxvG05R3Mbf@charter.net> the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82 lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening [sambodhi], to nibbana. This is why I have taught them. SN v 437 When a list of words such as this is used in the Pali suttas, what is going on? I have recently been told: "In Pali as well, consecutive listing of the words doesn't mean they are synonyms. On the contrary, Buddha's words are so laconic that he wouldn't waste two words to denote the same thing." That does not seem quite correct. Now, somewhere I have either been told by one my Pali teachers(Paul Griffiths and Frances Wilson), or I read from Warder, Gombrich or Johansson or somebody that such lists are making a point, either pointing to a progression or to differing attributes of the same thing. I'd appreciate a learned opinion.or two on this matter. Thanks, Bruce. From richard.nance at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 09:26:00 2012 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:26:00 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lists in Pali In-Reply-To: <3R3M1k00F1hhxvG05R3Mbf@charter.net> References: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> <3R3M1k00F1hhxvG05R3Mbf@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, I can't tell you what is going on in such lists, but I can tell you what Vasubandhu appears to have thought was going on. In the second book of the *Logic of Explication* (*Vy?khy?yukti*, extant in Tibetan as *rnam par bshad pa'i rigs pa*), Vasubandhu undertakes to comment on about 100 short scriptural passages. In doing so, he occasionally splinters lists of this kind (which, of course, are also found in Buddhist scriptural texts outside the Pali canon) into what he terms the "teaching" ( *bstan pa*)--i.e., one or more of the initial terms in the list--and the "explication" (*bshad pa*)--i.e., the remaining terms. In Vasubandhu's view, therefore, the Buddha himself was a commentator: * buddhavacana* comprises both teaching and (at least some) commentary. Of course, to say that some stretch of discourse is offered as a commentary on another isn't to say all that much, since commentators have--and were historically presumed to have--a lot of tools from which they could draw. So the observation doesn't help much to answer the question you're asking. But it does serve to place Buddhist commentators in very good company. Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana University On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > > the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to > utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to > nibbana. SN v 82 > > lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct > knowledge, to self-awakening [sambodhi], to nibbana. This is why I have > taught them. SN v 437 > > When a list of words such as this is used in the Pali suttas, what is > going on? I have recently been told: "In Pali as well, consecutive listing > of the words doesn't mean they are synonyms. On the contrary, Buddha's > words are so laconic that he wouldn't waste two words to denote the same > thing." That does not seem quite correct. > > Now, somewhere I have either been told by one my Pali teachers(Paul > Griffiths and Frances Wilson), or I read from Warder, Gombrich or > Johansson or somebody that such lists are making a point, either pointing > to a progression or to differing attributes of the same thing. I'd > appreciate a learned opinion.or two on this matter. > Thanks, > > Bruce. > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/**mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From caodemarte at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 10:08:01 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (Gerald McLoughlin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:08:01 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> References: <1213299.1348519965742.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <004e01cd9ab4$0cf75920$26e60b60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please note that Arab conquests were not wars of religion as such. The conquered were not even allowed to convert to what was then seen as the religion of the Arabs for a very long period of time. Finally the view that Islam was open to all carried the day, but forced conversions, if existent, would have been rare to the vanishing point. Of course, Islamic states were historically far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than the Christian states, "pagans" being a different complex story. On a side note, Wahhabist missionary efforts have been notable for their lack of effect on the religious front. Foreign money has been somewhat effective in helping ideologically related local groups. This is distinct from funding of various political and armed factions who claim to be Islamic by diverse elements. Saudi, Malaysian, and other donors do often insist that rebuilt mosques be built according to the donor's tastes. This has not helped the preservation of local styles and traditions. In general you can say that there are some common themes in Islam, but there is no one globally predominant sect or influence let alone one coming from Saudi. Gerald On Sep 24, 2012, at 8:23 PM, "jo" <05jkirk at gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry for top posting but it's easier than the opposite. > My response here is to the concept of "Muslim world". > > I hesitate to say anything on this list anymore, because whatever I write is > simply ignored by practically everybody on the list, except for Dan and > Katherine, but let's at least be critical rather than lazy so far as the > phrase 'Muslim world" goes. > > Historically there have been at least two cultural movements that could be > tallied as what some historians (or anthropologists, which I am) might > choose to call 'Muslim worlds'. The first one came into existence after the > Islamic conquest of then Persia and neighboring areas in the 7th -9th cs CE. > As more countries were conquered or their rulers acceded to the new > religion, Muslim intelligentsia of those eras wrote accordingly, as if their > mission and views covered a broad territory of nations often vastly > different from one another. Muslim historians traveled widely and wrote > about the different cultures they encountered, while taking satisfaction in > the progress Islam had made through conversions and Arab culture. (This can > all be reviewed on Wikipedia. I'm not going to take the time to look things > up and present links.) In those days, the Middle East could be designated,thi > generally speaking, as a Muslim world. > > Then, after the European imperialisms of later years, the ideological and > cultural ambiance of the old Muslim world began breaking up. (A good example > is what happened to the Mughal and other Muslim kingships in South Asia.) > > Today, as I see it after long study, the 'Muslim world' Dan refers to is an > artifact of Saudi Arabian government financial support for missionizing the > Wahhabist version of Islam, in their view the only correct Muslim > religion/practice. Al Wahhab (18thc) traveled from Arabia widely into > southern Asia and spread his views that Islam was corrupt and had to be > purified. That impulse continues under today's Saudi rulers, who have > successfully spread it far and wide, to every single nation that consider > themselves to be Muslim. (Money talks, in this case to architects, clerical > establishments, and to rich elites seeking prestige in the form of mosque > and madressah building, plus stocking these with Wahhabist clerics from > Saudi.) Thousands of people in various countries following their traditions, > according to the trajectory Dan laid out as it were, were forced to stop > doing whatever they had been doing for centuries and start doing religion > the Wahhabi way. Thus, today we have a new 'Muslim world." It is very > different from the old original one. It's a world that has trashed elaborate > cultures and gender relations, traditional arts, as well as relations > between the holders of power and their subjects--via shari'a. > > Joanna > _______________________ > > On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:53 PM > > [........] > >> What, by the way, is the Muslim world? > > There are about 60 nations which are Muslim (separation of "church" and > state is not an option), some for many centuries, some established in the > 20th c precisely on the basis of muslim identity (e.g., Pakistan). If you > get out a world map and start around Indonesia (the most populous muslim > nation in the world) and continue westward through Thailand, Bangladesh, > Pakistan, Kashmir, western China, Chechnya, Azerbaijan, etc. etc, Iran, the > middle east, Balkans, Bosnia, Armenia, north Africa, Somalia, Sudan (but not > the recently established South Sudan which is still fighting for its > independence from the muslim north, although already granted statehood), > Chad, Nigeria, etc., you will have circumscribed the Muslim world (and in > countries like Nigeria containing large non-Muslim populations, constant > slaughter and outbursts or religious intolerance). You will also have traced > something that fits directly on top of the maps above. Not a coincidence. > The periphery of the Muslim world -- i.e., where it borders on non-muslim > states and populations -- there is violent conflict. > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From gbungo at earthlink.net Tue Sep 25 10:34:07 2012 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:34:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia Message-ID: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Gerald, >Gerald McLoughlin wrote: > >Please note that Arab conquests were not wars of religion as such. The conquered were not even allowed to convert to what was then seen as the religion of the Arabs for a very long period of time. Finally the view that Islam was open to all carried the day, but forced conversions, if existent, would have been rare to the vanishing point. Of course, Islamic states were historically far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than the Christian states, "pagans" being a different complex story. > > (snip) What's your source for saying that the conquered weren't allowed to convert for a very long period of time? My understanding is that while Muhammad was still alive there was a religious conquest of Mecca by Muhammad's followers from Medina. Yarmuk followed pretty soon after that. I'm also skeptical about the rarity of forced conversions. What's your source? Thanks, Greg Bungo From aryacitta at hotmail.com Tue Sep 25 12:59:40 2012 From: aryacitta at hotmail.com (David Living) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:59:40 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >"Mohammed ......Peace be unto him" Interesting concept! Dave Living From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Sep 25 14:55:03 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:55:03 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 17:31 -0600, I wrote: > ALBUQUERQUE (AP) ? A Buddhist stupa has been order removed from New > Mexico's Petroglyph National Monument. > > The National Park Service said Monday that park service will remove > the religious item from the park this week after getting an opinion > from the Department of Interior's solicitor general. The solicitor > general ruled last month that keeping the Buddhist stupa violates the > Constitution on established religion. Needless to say, I was delighted by this decision. A Buddhist stupa has no place in a national monument or on any other federal lands. When I heard this story reported on NPR, there was a further piece of information that I found deeply disturbing, namely, that the Department of Interior is still dithering about the plaques that fundamentalist Christians have placed in Grand Canyon National Park, informing visitors that the Grand Canyon was formed a few thousand years by Noah?s flood. (It is not explained why Arizona was left with a deep canyon by the flood while Nebraska, Iowa and Kansas were left almost perfectly flat.) I have seen those plaques and was appalled that the National Park Service had allowed them to remain for almost thirty years. Apparently efforts to remove them have been met with vociferous outcries. For those who have the stomach to read it, here is a link from an offended Christian, who sees the efforts of the National Park Service to remove the signs as part of the government?s (and the ACLU?s) war on Christianity. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2003/07/28/God-grand-canyon I especially love the reference in this piece to geological features named after Hindu gods, by which the author is undoubtedly referring to the Vishnu schist, the Brahma schist and the Rama schist. I saw no objection to the Bright Angel shale, however. I reckon we can eventually expect to see demands that the Hindu features be renamed the Jesus schist, the Paul schist and the Peter schist, to be known collectively as the Holy Schist. And just to be on the safe side, I think the Dox sandstone should be renamed the Orthodox sandstone. If it is completely ridiculous claims one craves to see, there is no need to visit the mountains of Afghanistan or Pakistan. There are plenty to be found all over the United States. I wouldn?t be entirely surprised if even one or two Europeans have said something silly, but that is really just a Wilders guess on my part. -- Richard Hayes Department of Geological Theology Universidad of Nuevo M?xico From stroble at hawaii.edu Tue Sep 25 15:19:20 2012 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (Andy Stroble) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:19:20 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 17:31 -0600, I wrote: > > > ALBUQUERQUE (AP) ? A Buddhist stupa has been order removed from New > > Mexico's Petroglyph National Monument. > > > > The National Park Service said Monday that park service will remove > > the religious item from the park this week after getting an opinion > > from the Department of Interior's solicitor general. The solicitor > > general ruled last month that keeping the Buddhist stupa violates the > > Constitution on established religion. > > Needless to say, I was delighted by this decision. A Buddhist stupa has > no place in a national monument or on any other federal lands. > > We would expect nothing else from the author of "Land of No Buddha". Andy From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Sep 25 15:26:39 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:26:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1348608399.12621.43.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2012-09-25 at 11:19 -1000, Andy Stroble wrote: > We would expect nothing else from the author of "Land of No Buddha". Fortunately, the book is now out of print, making every land the land of no ?Land of no Buddha.? From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Sep 25 15:30:31 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:30:31 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <1348608631.12621.47.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Tue, 2012-09-25 at 11:19 -1000, some bozo wrote: > A Buddhist stupa has been order removed from New > Mexico's Petroglyph National Monument. This just jarred a memory of the first time a student lodged a complaint to a dean about my irreverence in the classroom. The complaint was with reference to my saying in a lecture that Buddhism is a very stupaed religion. Richard From h.godavari at shaw.ca Tue Sep 25 15:39:59 2012 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (HARSHA GODAVARI) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:39:59 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <1348608399.12621.43.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <1348608399.12621.43.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/187-9332787-9917458?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Land+of+no+Buddha ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard P. Hayes" Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > On Tue, 2012-09-25 at 11:19 -1000, Andy Stroble wrote: > > > We would expect nothing else from the author of "Land of No Buddha". > > Fortunately, the book is now out of print, making every land the > land of > no ?Land of no Buddha.? > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From caodemarte at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 18:13:30 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (G. McLoughlin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia In-Reply-To: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1348618410.90198.YahooMailNeo@web160403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Pretty much any standard modern history of the early conquests and the?Islamic?expansion ?tells the same story. ?Muslims?were not?interested?in conversion of non-Muslims by the sword. For example, the?popular?The Arabs in History?, Revised Edition (p. 56 - 59.?Harper-Colophon Books,) by Bernard Lewis describes the astonishment of the early Arab?conquers?that conquered non-Arabs would try to convert. Not only did this confound the belief that God loved the?Arabs best, the state lost?certain revenues?on non-believers.? There was little motive for?forcible?conversion.?In fact the Koran states, "There is no?compulsion?in religion."?For the Arab conquests the old story of a?vigorous?new society rising up at the same time the old, established and rich empires were becoming weak??(the Persians, etc.) seems to be a far more?plausible?narrative than a?desire?to convert by the sword (as?distinct?from raiding, robbing, killing, looting, and conquering?those you can which seem to be?universally?popular?activities). ? The whole question of what you do with "pagans" and "the?idolatrous" under Muslim rule is different?from?the question of what you do with people of the book (Christians and Jews) who have a special status. I?believe?the answer has varied?widely in time and place, but typically has been more in line with giving?them third class status below Muslims and the second class?Christians?and Jews than forcible conversion.? For the non-Muslim Arab case of Mecca remember?that the early Muslims had been kicked out of Mecca by the "pagans" and were at war with the Meccan establishment. ?I?believe?that the conquest of Mecca was less a matter of conversion by the sword and more of a matter of physically?destroying?the hostile "pagan"?religious?establishment?and the "pagan" gods (although the main "pagan"?religious?tourist?attraction, an apparent?meteorite,?was?incorporated?into?the?Islamic?pilgrimage). ? The next great?Islamic?empire was that of the Ottoman Turks (who?also?conquered the Arabs)??where the practice was very similar. ?Many Jews fled?Christian persecution by felling to Muslim lands where they would not be subject to ?forcible?conversion as they were?threatened?with?forcible?conversion to?Christianity?or death (although like the Christians they would?normally?be second class subjects).??Many?Spanish?Jews ended up in Bosnia where there is a great historical??mystery ?concerning?conversion to Islam. Only in Bosnia do we see ?conquered Christians converting in large numbers ?under Turkish Muslim?rule. The??conversion of?Bosnia is the historical?mystery of the region. Why did?Bosnians?convert in such numbers under Ottoman rule and not other peoples who were under the same conditions, say Serbs? ?One?theory?is that the Bogomils (Bosnian?Christians who?many?believe?were?Gnostic?or pro-Cathar, but there is little?compelling?evidence and they may have had no?clear?theology)?switched?en?masse?because?they were rejected by?Rome as?heretics (the??fate of the Cathars made pretty clear what?happened?to such?heretical?groups?without?protection of a larger?church?or state), and some Muslim?religious?practice?seemed?similar?in form to some of their own. In short, if you have to choose religions better the side that won't kill you and looks a little like you. The Bogomils became Muslims in such number that they more or less?completely?disappeared?as a?separate?religion. The fact that the?conversion?was so rare, I?believe?unique, underlines the well established fact that the Islamic Ottoman state was not?interested?in forcible?conversions. Over time it is?possible?that many people would convert, less out of belief and more to avoid the real disadvantages of?being?a non-Muslim in Muslim society, but to say this was?conversion?by force or such conversion was the ?motive for the conquests seems unsupportable.? Regards, Gerald ________________________________ From: Gregory Bungo To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia Hi Gerald, >Gerald McLoughlin wrote: > >Please note that Arab conquests were not wars of religion as such. The conquered were not even allowed to convert to what was then seen as the religion of the Arabs for a very long period of time. Finally the view that Islam was open to all carried the day, but forced conversions, if existent, would have been rare to the vanishing point. Of course,? Islamic states were historically far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than the Christian states, "pagans" being a different complex story. > > (snip) What's your source for saying that the conquered weren't allowed to convert for a very long period of time?? My understanding is that while Muhammad was still alive there was a religious conquest of Mecca by Muhammad's followers from Medina.? Yarmuk followed pretty soon after that. I'm also skeptical about the rarity of forced conversions.? What's your source? Thanks, Greg Bungo? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From caodemarte at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 22:12:14 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (G. McLoughlin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia In-Reply-To: <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348632734.2932.YahooMailNeo@web160402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Greg, I meant "fleeing ?to Muslim lands" and not "felling."? J. P. Berkey in?The?Formation?of?Islam:?Religion?and Society n the Near East 600-1800?writes : "As is well known the Arabs made no attempt to impose?their?faith?on?their?new subjects, and at?first?in fact discouraged conversion on the part ?of non-Arabs." This?refers?to conquered non-Arabs. There, of course, being some famous?individual?non-Arab converts to?early?Islam. To deal with the "problem" of accepting ?non-Arab converts in the conquered lands?mawala status was created in the early?days.?Basically?one was?adopted?by, or?accepted?patron-client status,?from an Arab?clan,?family, or individual. In a sense, one became a?provisional?Arab and a kind of Muslim. Mawala were?definitively? not?treated?as "real" Arab Muslims, paid the?unbelievers?tax, and did not fully share in the material benefits given to "true"?Muslims. This?half?way status on the way to allowing true conversion to?Islam by the new non-Arab subjects and acceptance as a fellow Muslim was?eventually?abandoned and Islam became a more universal?religion and less an Arab?religion.? Concerning forcible conversion of the?conquered a quick bit of Internet?plagiarism nets: Ira?M. Lapidus,?A History of Islamic Societies?(Cambridge: CUP, 1988) p. 43, pp 243-244.i: "The second principle?was that the conquered populations should be as little disturbed as possible. This means that the Arab-Muslims did not, contrary to reputation, attempt to convert people to Islam. Muhammad had set the precedent of permitting Jews and Christians in Arabia to keep their religions, if they paid tribute; the Caliphate extended the same privileges to Middle Eastern Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, whom they considered 'People of the Book,' the adherents of earlier written revelations. ?The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now ?apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare. Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary.? M. Hodgson,?The Venture of Islam, vol. 1, p. 199.? ?There was no attempt at converting the peoples of the imperial territories, who practically all adhered to some form of confessional religion already?In the chiefly non-Arab agricultural lands, the object was not conversion but rule?The superiority of Islam as religion, and therefore in providing for social order, would justify Muslim rule: would justify the simple, fair-dealing Muslims in replacing the privileged and oppressive representatives of the older, corrupted allegiances?? Regards and now back to Buddhism, Gerald From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Sep 26 02:27:05 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:27:05 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia In-Reply-To: <1348632734.2932.YahooMailNeo@web160402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <505E4931.1030504@cola.iges.org> <430FC5EB-E660-4403-8BC4-A3655CDAE71D@yahoo.com> <1348632734.2932.YahooMailNeo@web160402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On the reasons why tribal societies of East Bengal opted for Islam (but not for Buddhism or Hinduism) --- see Richard Eaton's The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760 (Comparative Studies on Muslim Societies), UCP 1998 >From Amazon.co.uk: <> Regards, Artur Karp From 05jkirk at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 07:00:42 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:00:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <002e01cd9be6$f163df10$d42b9d30$@gmail.com> On Behalf Of Richard P. Hayes Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 2:55 PM On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 17:31 -0600, I wrote: > ALBUQUERQUE (AP) ? A Buddhist stupa has been order removed from New > Mexico's Petroglyph National Monument. > > The National Park Service said Monday that park service will remove > the religious item from the park this week after getting an opinion > from the Department of Interior's solicitor general. The solicitor > general ruled last month that keeping the Buddhist stupa violates the > Constitution on established religion. Needless to say, I was delighted by this decision. A Buddhist stupa has no place in a national monument or on any other federal lands. When I heard this story reported on NPR, there was a further piece of information that I found deeply disturbing, namely, that the Department of Interior is still dithering about the plaques that fundamentalist Christians have placed in Grand Canyon National Park, informing visitors that the Grand Canyon was formed a few thousand years by Noah?s flood. (It is not explained why Arizona was left with a deep canyon by the flood while Nebraska, Iowa and Kansas were left almost perfectly flat.) I have seen those plaques and was appalled that the National Park Service had allowed them to remain for almost thirty years. Apparently efforts to remove them have been met with vociferous outcries. For those who have the stomach to read it, here is a link from an offended Christian, who sees the efforts of the National Park Service to remove the signs as part of the government?s (and the ACLU?s) war on Christianity. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2003/07/28/God-grand-canyon I especially love the reference in this piece to geological features named after Hindu gods, by which the author is undoubtedly referring to the Vishnu schist, the Brahma schist and the Rama schist. I saw no objection to the Bright Angel shale, however. I reckon we can eventually expect to see demands that the Hindu features be renamed the Jesus schist, the Paul schist and the Peter schist, to be known collectively as the Holy Schist. And just to be on the safe side, I think the Dox sandstone should be renamed the Orthodox sandstone. If it is completely ridiculous claims one craves to see, there is no need to visit the mountains of Afghanistan or Pakistan. There are plenty to be found all over the United States. I wouldn?t be entirely surprised if even one or two Europeans have said something silly, but that is really just a Wilders guess on my part. -- Richard Hayes Department of Geological Theology Universidad of Nuevo M?xico _______________________________________________ Hilarious--one of the better posts on this list seen in some time. I agree your point about putting religion--edifices or signage-- into federal lands --should be a no-no. However, I wonder who imposed those Hindu deity names on parts of the Grand Canyon, and when. Was it done in conjunction with the famous Parliament of Religions confab in Chicago? Or maybe later, after the founding and success of Vedanta Societies around the states? Joanna From 05jkirk at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 07:14:12 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:14:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia In-Reply-To: <1348618410.90198.YahooMailNeo@web160403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1348618410.90198.YahooMailNeo@web160403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201cd9be8$d3950890$7abf19b0$@gmail.com> All very interesting. Bernard Lewis is however not a favorite of Islamic Studies scholars, or at least some of them. The Ottomans probably were THE most successful Islamic empire in history. Aside from the above, I shan't write more, as Greg and Gerald are on with a topic quite different from the one I was on about, where I was talking about a 'culture' vs. cultures (aka financially supported orthodoxy vs. variety). Joanna ------------------------ On Behalf Of G. McLoughlin Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:14 PM Pretty much any standard modern history of the early conquests and the?Islamic?expansion ?tells the same story. ?Muslims?were not?interested?in conversion of non-Muslims by the sword. For example, the?popular?The Arabs in History?, Revised Edition (p. 56 - 59.?Harper-Colophon Books,) by Bernard Lewis describes the astonishment of the early Arab?conquers?that conquered non-Arabs would try to convert. Not only did this confound the belief that God loved the?Arabs best, the state lost?certain revenues?on non-believers.? There was little motive for?forcible?conversion.?In fact the Koran states, "There is no?compulsion?in religion."?For the Arab conquests the old story of a?vigorous?new society rising up at the same time the old, established and rich empires were becoming weak??(the Persians, etc.) seems to be a far more?plausible?narrative than a?desire?to convert by the sword (as?distinct?from raiding, robbing, killing, looting, and conquering?those you can which seem to be?universally?popular?activities). ? The whole question of what you do with "pagans" and "the?idolatrous" under Muslim rule is different?from?the question of what you do with people of the book (Christians and Jews) who have a special status. I?believe?the answer has varied?widely in time and place, but typically has been more in line with giving?them third class status below Muslims and the second class?Christians?and Jews than forcible conversion.? For the non-Muslim Arab case of Mecca remember?that the early Muslims had been kicked out of Mecca by the "pagans" and were at war with the Meccan establishment. ?I?believe?that the conquest of Mecca was less a matter of conversion by the sword and more of a matter of physically?destroying?the hostile "pagan"?religious?establishment?and the "pagan" gods (although the main "pagan"?religious?tourist?attraction, an apparent?meteorite,?was?incorporated?into?the?Islamic?pilgrimage). ? The next great?Islamic?empire was that of the Ottoman Turks (who?also?conquered the Arabs)??where the practice was very similar. ?Many Jews fled?Christian persecution by felling to Muslim lands where they would not be subject to ?forcible?conversion as they were?threatened?with?forcible?conversion to?Christianity?or death (although like the Christians they would?normally?be second class subjects).??Many?Spanish?Jews ended up in Bosnia where there is a great historical??mystery ?concerning?conversion to Islam. Only in Bosnia do we see ?conquered Christians converting in large numbers ?under Turkish Muslim?rule. The??conversion of?Bosnia is the historical?mystery of the region. Why did?Bosnians?convert in such numbers under Ottoman rule and not other peoples who were under the same conditions, say Serbs? ?One?theory?is that the Bogomils (Bosnian?Christians who?many?believe?were?Gnostic?or pro-Cathar, but there is little?compelling?evidence and they may have had no?clear?theology)?switched?en?masse?because?they were rejected by?Rome as?heretics (the??fate of the Cathars made pretty clear what?happened?to such?heretical?groups?without?protection of a larger?church?or state), and some Muslim?religious?practice?seemed?similar?in form to some of their own. In short, if you have to choose religions better the side that won't kill you and looks a little like you. The Bogomils became Muslims in such number that they more or less?completely?disappeared?as a?separate?religion. The fact that the?conversion?was so rare, I?believe?unique, underlines the well established fact that the Islamic Ottoman state was not?interested?in forcible?conversions. Over time it is?possible?that many people would convert, less out of belief and more to avoid the real disadvantages of?being?a non-Muslim in Muslim society, but to say this was?conversion?by force or such conversion was the ?motive for the conquests seems unsupportable.? Regards, Gerald ________________________________ From: Gregory Bungo To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia Hi Gerald, >Gerald McLoughlin wrote: > >Please note that Arab conquests were not wars of religion as such. The conquered were not even allowed to convert to what was then seen as the religion of the Arabs for a very long period of time. Finally the view that Islam was open to all carried the day, but forced conversions, if existent, would have been rare to the vanishing point. Of course,? Islamic states were historically far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than the Christian states, "pagans" being a different complex story. > > (snip) What's your source for saying that the conquered weren't allowed to convert for a very long period of time?? My understanding is that while Muhammad was still alive there was a religious conquest of Mecca by Muhammad's followers from Medina.? Yarmuk followed pretty soon after that. I'm also skeptical about the rarity of forced conversions.? What's your source? Thanks, Greg Bungo? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From gbungo at earthlink.net Wed Sep 26 08:39:33 2012 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:39:33 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia Message-ID: <821882.1348670373961.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Gerald, Thanks for the information and your thoughts. It's a complex topic. Although the Koran says that religion should not be compelled, there appear to be passages that contradict this. I've also seen a Hadith quote that tells people to kill any Muslim who converts to another religion. I saw this on the internet -- it can be hard to assess the reliability of internet information! As I am not an expert on Islam, I will try to remain open minded. Thanks, Greg From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Sep 26 10:36:22 2012 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt steinmetz) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:36:22 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Islam and forced conversion (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <50632F06.20202@cola.iges.org> Even if we were to allow, for the sake of argument, that there have been no forced conversions of non-Muslim populations in the history of Islam, still there is the uncontested situation with respect to criminalization of "apostasy", to this day, throughout the Muslim world. And let's be precise about what is meant here by the "Muslim world", which in this context refers to all those nations in which Islam has the legal status of official state religion -- and this applies not only to places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, but also very much to moderate or even "secular" nations such as Morocco and Malaysia. In all these Muslim societies a person born to Muslim parents is legally Muslim from birth. And once one is a Muslim, leaving the Muslim religion is a criminal act (and in most cases at least potentially a capital crime). In other words, the vast majority of all of the world's Muslims are, in no uncertain terms, the direct victims of forced conversion, since they are forced into Islam from the moment of birth are are forcibly required to remain Muslim throughout their lives or face penalties up to death. And a great many Muslims fully support this status quo, including large (<70%) majorities in countries like Egypt and Pakistan who favor putting apostates to death. The question of how religions spread, and how Islam has spread in particular, is of great importance to the study of the history of Buddhism. Curt From 05jkirk at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 11:01:42 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:01:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> [...] http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2003/07/28/God-grand-canyon I especially love the reference in this piece to geological features named after Hindu gods, by which the author is undoubtedly referring to the Vishnu schist, the Brahma schist and the Rama schist. I saw no objection to the Bright Angel shale, however. I reckon we can eventually expect to see demands that the Hindu features be renamed the Jesus schist, the Paul schist and the Peter schist, to be known collectively as the Holy Schist. And just to be on the safe side, I think the Dox sandstone should be renamed the Orthodox sandstone. [...] -- Richard Hayes ___________________________ A point to note about both authors on these two links is that neither one of them deign to mention that there is a 'Buddha Cloister' also in the Grand Canyon. One also notes that the explorer, Dutton, seems to have been a comparativist rather than a chamber of commerce type. Joanna -------- Start names in the GC here: Richard having raised the intriguing point about religion associated with our Grand Canyon, I lucked out finding these reflections by Indians on the Hindu deity names applied therein. For those fascinated by the spectacular formations of a canyon in the grandest sense of the term, read on: http://www.mayyam.com/talk/viewlite.php?t=5609 Vedic Gods names of mountains in the Grand canyon (This is from an article on a Hindu membership blog titled The Hub, about the Hindu names in the Grand Canyon, cribbed from the link following this one. I found this one first, so no need to include it with the fair use quotes from the next link): "Dutton's own account of the Canyon furnishes some clues as to how he was thinking. From Point Sublime, where Dutton spent many hours (thus "Point Sublime"), one could detect a long and rather wide promontory that separates the Shinumo Amphitheater from what Dutton called the "Hindoo Amphitheater". He does not say why he called it the "Hindoo Amphitheater", but his remarks on Vishnu's Temple are rather more revealing. Noting the presence of a butte more than 5,000 feet high, "so admirably designed and so exquisitely designed that the sight of it must call forth an expression of wonder and delight from the most apathetic beholder", Dutton found this "finest butte of the chasm" to have "a surprising resemblance to an Oriental pagoda": "We named it Vishnu's Temple." In this species of reasoning, a Vaishnavite temple is no doubt an instance of "an Oriental pagoda", to be amalgamated easily into a generic form of Oriental temple architecture, and until well into the twentieth century, Americans routinely described Hindu temples as 'pagodas': one need not snivel at this kind of Orientalist ignorance. Dutton's remarks on Shiva's Temple are yet more profuse and pointed: describing it as a "gigantic mass", Dutton thought Shiva's Temple to be the "grandest of all the buttes, and the most majestic in aspect, though not the most ornate." But Shiva's face did not present the most benign aspect: the summit looked down 6,000 feet "into the dark depths of the inner abyss" over a succession of impossibly difficult ledges. The butte stands, Dutton wrote, "in the midst of a great throng of cloister-like buttes, with the same noble profiles and strong lineaments as those immediately before us, with a plexus of awful chasms between them. In such a stupendous scene of wreck it seemed as if the fabled 'Destroyer' might find an abode not wholly uncongenial." ----------- http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/Diaspora/hindus_wildwest.html (This author, Vinay Lal, cites the names of Chinese sages Confucius and Mencius, and one Hindu sage, Manu, names unmentioned in a couple of other GC place name lists I found online.) ...It was Dutton, in any case, who decided to give most of the various peaks and buttes in the Grand Canyon their extraordinary names....the Himalayas, that Dutton was thinking of when his explorations carried him into the Canyon. ...The author of a recent monograph on the Canyon states that "to overcome what he [Dutton] considered the linguistic poverty of English, he brought in new descriptive terms from Spanish, French, and even native Hawaiian and scrapped stock Alpine analogies for striking allusions to architectural forms, even those of the Orient." But what were these 'Oriental' architectural forms, and what could Dutton have known of them? And whose Orient is being adverted to? In the mid- to late-nineteenth century, few Europeans or Americans thought of Hindu art or architecture as anything but worthless, and the images of Indian deities were, in the words of one scholar, "much maligned monsters". Little is known of what impelled Dutton to ascribe 'Oriental' names to some of the buttes and peaks in the Grand Canyon, but he did: and so it is that the visitor today may 'worship' at the temples of Mencius, Confucius, and the Buddha, and at these Hindu temples: Vishnu; Shiva; Brahma; Rama; and Manu. ... "Forms so new to the culture of civilized races and so strongly contrasted with those which have been the ideals of thirty generations of white men", Dutton suggested, "cannot indeed be appreciated after the study of a single hour or day." "The first conception" of them might even, Dutton thought, "not be a pleasing one." The engineers were there to plumb the depths of the Canyon, and the book of nature was not there merely for the opening: yet in his quest for names that would reveal the inner meanings and majesty of the Canyon, Dutton had merely to repair to some received notions of Hinduism. ...Though both Emerson and Thoreau had an extraordinarily subtle understanding of Hinduism, their knowledge was confined to some -- albeit an interesting variety -- of the classic Indian texts. They knew nothing of popular Hinduism...All over India, there are barely a handful of temples dedicated to Brahma, and the 'dedication' of a temple to Brahma in the late nineteenth century, as was done by Dutton at the Grand Canyon, cannot be considered as nothing but anomalous. Similarly, it is striking that one of the buttes should have been named after the Indian law-giver Manu, of whom even today only a minority of educated Indians can be said to have any knowledge, and whose name would have been an altogether unknown entity among Americans in Dutton's own time, except of course to a few dedicated transcendentalists. Indeed, G. Buhler's translation of The Laws of Manu in the famous "Sacred Books of the East" Series did not appear in an English translation until 1886, four years after Dutton's Tertiary History, and one can only surmise that Dutton's familiarity with Manu (if it was Dutton who named the butte "Manu", as seems very likely) was gained from Thoreau's and Emerson's concerted efforts to lay the sayings of Manu before an American audience. It was in the early 1840s that Thoreau compiled excerpts from "The Laws of Menu" and had them published in The Dial, the new and short-lived journal of the Transcendentalist group; and it is Manu who is being referred to in Walden when Thoreau praises the "Hindoo lawgiver" for his enlightened view of the human body and its functions. As for Emerson, his journals amply testify to his view of Manu as a wise and lofty lawgiver beyond comparison: if in 1821 he was to write, "As long ago as Menu enlightened morality was taught in India", in 1836 he was adverting to "the brave maxim of the Code of Menu: 'A Teacher of the Veda should rather die with his learning than sow it in sterile soil, even though he be in grievous distress for subsistence.'" In having furnished some of the more striking buttes and peaks in the Grand Canyon with Hindu names, Dutton revealed (howsoever inadvertently) something of the reputation that Hinduism had acquired in America, and had given credence (in howsoever unusual a manner) to a formal and textbook interpretation of Hinduism. It is instructive that he was able, without any fanfare or loud trumpeting of the virtues of multiculturalism, to designate the monuments of America's most well-known and beloved rock formation by names that were undoubtedly exotic and remote to the American imagination. Any such endeavor today would be fraught with hazardous consequences, the cultural right heralding such acts of naming as 'politically motivated' concessions to religious and ethnic minorities." The author goes on to make his case for Las Vegas being a city of Hinduism possibility because of its love of gambling and its visual excess. Summing up, he wrote: "But whereas Dutton's Hinduism was of the text-book variety, the kind that 'modern' Hindus in America, Britain, Canada, and even urban India so eagerly embrace, Las Vegas brings the true worshipper to a more vibrant understanding of the faith. One begins with illusion and may perhaps graduate from ignorance to knowledge; nowhere else in the world are the senses so relentlessly attacked and do the demons rush in to stake their claims. Here there is no sanctuary, except the inner self of which Hinduism has always spoken; but perchance as this self is no more distinct from the outer self than the seed from the tree, one recognizes that in the noisome and nauseous splendor of Las Vegas Hinduism will find its possibilities and teachings fulfilled." From caodemarte at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 12:25:00 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (Gerald McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:25:00 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Islam and forced conversion (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <50632F06.20202@cola.iges.org> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <50632F06.20202@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <557E2FCB-B8EC-4996-9D3E-D1F672485456@yahoo.com> Curt, Both statements would be highly contested in reference to both civil and religious law across the Islamic world. In the various religious law traditions what apostasy is (must it include some sort of specific act, like treason, against Muslims, for example) and should/can it be punished still generate heated controversy. Each country is different, of course, but since you cite Malaysia: Malaysian law as I understand it, says that you cannot formally convert before the age of majority, 18 by federal law, 15 in some states. You have no automatic right to receive religious instruction in a religion other than your father' s before that age. You are listed under your father's religion until then. After that age it is up to you. Since Islam is defined as essential to Malay identity you have to be Muslim to be Malay which has great benefits under their version of affirmative action. If you convert you presumably lose that ethnic identity. I am not sure what identity you could pick up if any. As you can imagine this is all pretty controversial in Malaysia. In the most populous Muslim majority state, neighboring Indonesia, I do remember the pre-democracy state ideology which established the main religions, such as Buddhism, specifically because they all believed in the same presumably Abrahamic God. Ethnic Chinese Buddhists decided not to argue the definition of Buddhism. Now I am really back to Buddhism, Gerald McLoughlin On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:36 PM, curt steinmetz wrote: > Even if we were to allow, for the sake of argument, that there have been no forced conversions of non-Muslim populations in the history of Islam, still there is the uncontested situation with respect to criminalization of "apostasy", to this day, throughout the Muslim world. > > And let's be precise about what is meant here by the "Muslim world", which in this context refers to all those nations in which Islam has the legal status of official state religion -- and this applies not only to places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, but also very much to moderate or even "secular" nations such as Morocco and Malaysia. > > In all these Muslim societies a person born to Muslim parents is legally Muslim from birth. And once one is a Muslim, leaving the Muslim religion is a criminal act (and in most cases at least potentially a capital crime). > > In other words, the vast majority of all of the world's Muslims are, in no uncertain terms, the direct victims of forced conversion, since they are forced into Islam from the moment of birth are are forcibly required to remain Muslim throughout their lives or face penalties up to death. > > And a great many Muslims fully support this status quo, including large (<70%) majorities in countries like Egypt and Pakistan who favor putting apostates to death. > > The question of how religions spread, and how Islam has spread in particular, is of great importance to the study of the history of Buddhism. > > Curt > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Sep 26 13:55:44 2012 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt steinmetz) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:55:44 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Islam and forced conversion (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <557E2FCB-B8EC-4996-9D3E-D1F672485456@yahoo.com> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <50632F06.20202@cola.iges.org> <557E2FCB-B8EC-4996-9D3E-D1F672485456@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50635DC0.7080505@cola.iges.org> Quoting from the Malaysian Constitution on freedom of religion is like quoting from the old Soviet Constitution concerning freedom of speech. Just this year Malaysia famously handed Hamza Kashgari over to the Saudi Authorities (and almost a year later Kashgari still languishes in a Saudi prison for the crime of tweeting some poetry about Muhammad). This act by Malaysian authorities was in direct violation of provisions in the Malaysian Constitution, according to prominent Malaysian civil rights attorneys. Anyone who is not aware of this infamous incident should not bother venturing an opinion on religious freedom in Malaysia. Then there is the case of Lina Joy, who was officially denied permission to convert to Christianity in 2007 by the Malaysian Supreme Court, whose chief justice, Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim, stated "You can?t at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another". Also there is the small matter that Malaysia has two legal systems, one of them run directly by Muslim clerics. This creates a Catch-22: if a civil court grants a person permission to convert from Islam to another religion, that person automatically falls under the jurisdiction of the Sharia courts for the Islamic crime of apostasy! Curt On 9/26/2012 2:25 PM, Gerald McLoughlin wrote: > Curt, > > Both statements would be highly contested in reference to both civil and religious law across the Islamic world. In the various religious law traditions what apostasy is (must it include some sort of specific act, like treason, against Muslims, for example) and should/can it be punished still generate heated controversy. > > Each country is different, of course, but since you cite Malaysia: > > Malaysian law as I understand it, says that you cannot formally convert before the age of majority, 18 by federal law, 15 in some states. You have no automatic right to receive religious instruction in a religion other than your father' s before that age. You are listed under your father's religion until then. After that age it is up to you. Since Islam is defined as essential to Malay identity you have to be Muslim to be Malay which has great benefits under their version of affirmative action. If you convert you presumably lose that ethnic identity. I am not sure what identity you could pick up if any. As you can imagine this is all pretty controversial in Malaysia. > > In the most populous Muslim majority state, neighboring Indonesia, I do remember the pre-democracy state ideology which established the main religions, such as Buddhism, specifically because they all believed in the same presumably Abrahamic God. Ethnic Chinese Buddhists decided not to argue the definition of Buddhism. > > > > > Now I am really back to Buddhism, > > Gerald McLoughlin > > > On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:36 PM, curt steinmetz wrote: > >> Even if we were to allow, for the sake of argument, that there have been no forced conversions of non-Muslim populations in the history of Islam, still there is the uncontested situation with respect to criminalization of "apostasy", to this day, throughout the Muslim world. >> >> And let's be precise about what is meant here by the "Muslim world", which in this context refers to all those nations in which Islam has the legal status of official state religion -- and this applies not only to places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, but also very much to moderate or even "secular" nations such as Morocco and Malaysia. >> >> In all these Muslim societies a person born to Muslim parents is legally Muslim from birth. And once one is a Muslim, leaving the Muslim religion is a criminal act (and in most cases at least potentially a capital crime). >> >> In other words, the vast majority of all of the world's Muslims are, in no uncertain terms, the direct victims of forced conversion, since they are forced into Islam from the moment of birth are are forcibly required to remain Muslim throughout their lives or face penalties up to death. >> >> And a great many Muslims fully support this status quo, including large (<70%) majorities in countries like Egypt and Pakistan who favor putting apostates to death. >> >> The question of how religions spread, and how Islam has spread in particular, is of great importance to the study of the history of Buddhism. >> >> Curt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From 05jkirk at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:10:03 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:10:03 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Islam and forced conversion (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <557E2FCB-B8EC-4996-9D3E-D1F672485456@yahoo.com> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <50632F06.20202@cola.iges.org> <557E2FCB-B8EC-4996-9D3E-D1F672485456@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001cd9c22$eb4a0410$c1de0c30$@gmail.com> On Behalf Of Gerald McLoughlin Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:25 PM Curt, Both statements would be highly contested in reference to both civil and religious law across the Islamic world. In the various religious law traditions what apostasy is (must it include some sort of specific act, like treason, against Muslims, for example) and should/can it be punished still generate heated controversy. Each country is different, of course, but since you cite Malaysia: Malaysian law as I understand it, says that you cannot formally convert before the age of majority, 18 by federal law, 15 in some states. You have no automatic right to receive religious instruction in a religion other than your father' s before that age. You are listed under your father's religion until then. After that age it is up to you. Since Islam is defined as essential to Malay identity you have to be Muslim to be Malay which has great benefits under their version of affirmative action. If you convert you presumably lose that ethnic identity. I am not sure what identity you could pick up if any. As you can imagine this is all pretty controversial in Malaysia. In the most populous Muslim majority state, neighboring Indonesia, I do remember the pre-democracy state ideology which established the main religions, such as Buddhism, specifically because they all believed in the same presumably Abrahamic God. Ethnic Chinese Buddhists decided not to argue the definition of Buddhism. Now I am really back to Buddhism, Gerald McLoughlin ---------------------------------- Instead of Malaysia, Gerald, have a go at Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or the villages of Bangladesh. Joanna From caodemarte at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 19:20:47 2012 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (Gerald McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Islam and forced conversion (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Isllamophobia) In-Reply-To: <50635DC0.7080505@cola.iges.org> References: <908508.1348590847659.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <50632F06.20202@cola.iges.org> <557E2FCB-B8EC-4996-9D3E-D1F672485456@yahoo.com> <50635DC0.7080505@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: I think the controversy about the Kashgari deportation to a country that does not have an extradition treaty with Malaysia, apparently illegal, actually forbidden by a Malaysian court, and fought by Malaysian lawyers (all the players I understand were Muslims) underlines the fact that such actions are not uncontested "throughout the Muslim world." Beyond the civil law issue of the deportation the apostasy charge itself has generated further controversy among religious scholars in various countries. By the way many scholars believe the Saudi state is the kind of Muslim state specifically forbidden by Islamic law which is one reason the Saudis are so sensitive to challenges from the religious establishment, some would say eager to buy them off with a holier than thou attitude. Your point about Lina Joy is very similar to the point raised by the dissenting judge, who protested the ruling that she had not followed the correct procedures. He said that the decision was inherently discriminatory. Again, this would indicate the contested and controversial nature of the decision. As I understand most religious scholars hold to the view that one becomes a Muslim by making the declaration of belief so the claim that one inherits the status is also controversial and contested. On a side note many people where I live believe that they inherited their Protestant Christian status, normally through their father, and to change religions is a betrayal. This view would not be uncontested. Regards, Gerald On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:55 PM, curt steinmetz wrote: > Quoting from the Malaysian Constitution on freedom of religion is like quoting from the old Soviet concerning freedom of speech. > > Just this year Malaysia famously handed Hamza Kashgari over to the Saudi Authorities (and almost a year later Kashgari still languishes in a Saudi prison for the crime of tweeting some poetry about Muhammad). This act by Malaysian authorities was in direct violation of provisions in the Malaysian Constitution, according to prominent Malaysian civil rights attorneys. Anyone who is not aware of this infamous incident should not bother venturing an opinion on religious freedom in Malaysia. > > Then there is the case of Lina Joy, who was officially denied permission to convert to Christianity in 2007 by the Malaysian Supreme Court, whose chief justice, Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim, stated "You can?t at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another". > > Also there is the small matter that Malaysia has two legal systems, one of them run directly by Muslim clerics. This creates a Catch-22: if a civil court grants a person permission to convert from Islam to another religion, that person automatically falls under the jurisdiction of the Sharia courts for the Islamic crime of apostasy! > > Curt > > On 9/26/2012 2:25 PM, Gerald McLoughlin wrote: >> Curt, >> >> Both statements would be highly contested in reference to both civil and religious law across the Islamic world. In the various religious law traditions what apostasy is (must it include some sort of specific act, like treason, against Muslims, for example) and should/can it be punished still generate heated controversy. >> ...... >> From 05jkirk at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 21:15:20 2012 From: 05jkirk at gmail.com (jo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:15:20 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Islam and forced conversion (Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia) Message-ID: <002801cd9c5e$54d422e0$fe7c68a0$@gmail.com> " By the way many scholars believe the Saudi state is the kind of Muslim state specifically forbidden by Islamic law which is one reason the Saudis are so sensitive to challenges from the religious establishment, some would say eager to buy them off with a holier than thou attitude." Hi Gerald, I think many scholars would consider it more realistic to say, "eager to buy them off with tons of monetary contributions coming with Wahhabi strings attached". Cheers, Joanna ---------------------- On Behalf Of Gerald McLoughlin Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 7:21 PM I think the controversy about the Kashgari deportation to a country that does not have an extradition treaty with Malaysia, apparently illegal, actually forbidden by a Malaysian court, and fought by Malaysian lawyers (all the players I understand were Muslims) underlines the fact that such actions are not uncontested "throughout the Muslim world." Beyond the civil law issue of the deportation the apostasy charge itself has generated further controversy among religious scholars in various countries. By the way many scholars believe the Saudi state is the kind of Muslim state specifically forbidden by Islamic law which is one reason the Saudis are so sensitive to challenges from the religious establishment, some would say eager to buy them off with a holier than thou attitude. Your point about Lina Joy is very similar to the point raised by the dissenting judge, who protested the ruling that she had not followed the correct procedures. He said that the decision was inherently discriminatory. Again, this would indicate the contested and controversial nature of the decision. As I understand most religious scholars hold to the view that one becomes a Muslim by making the declaration of belief so the claim that one inherits the status is also controversial and contested. On a side note many people where I live believe that they inherited their Protestant Christian status, normally through their father, and to change religions is a betrayal. This view would not be uncontested. Regards, Gerald From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Sep 29 07:40:07 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:40:07 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:01 , jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> wrote: > A point to note about both authors on these two links is that neither one of them deign to mention that there is a 'Buddha Cloister' also in the Grand Canyon. That's interesting. I had never realized that before. That's a location that somehow escaped my attention. The first time I walked across the Grand Canyon, I was ten years old, and I did it twice more as a young adult. All three times I was with my dad, who pointed out all main the geological features. I just remember him saying that the formations of the Grand Canyon so impressed John Wesley Powell that he named them after Hindu deities. He also said that Powell lost a boat and lots of supplies and I think a few men in a canyon that he then named Dirty Devil Canyon. Some of his men were spooked by the name and Powell made up for his reference to the devil by naming the next place he saw Bright Angel. I have no idea where my dad picked up these stories, but I do know he read all the journals of John Wesley Powell and was fascinated by the early explorations of the Grand Canyon, so he may have gotten the stories from those writings. Last time I went to the Grand Canyon, I saw all those plaques placed there by evangelical Christians, and I was so horrified that I almost forgot to look at the beautiful scene before me. I was also depressed by how the Grand Canyon is being loved to death. Trails on which one used to encounter no more than half a dozen people in a day now have thousands of people running around on them, and stepping off them to get spectacular photos. Not long after I saw the depressing commentary about Noah's ark, I saw a model or movie star out doing poses on a promontory while a gaggle of photographers too photos of her. I don't think John Wesley Powell ever could have envisioned that the Grand Canyon would become a backdrop for an advertisement for designer jeans. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Sep 29 07:58:30 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:58:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Was Buddhists Taking a Stand Against Islamophobia In-Reply-To: References: <0DE2E459-CAE8-4D7C-B3E6-1A628FEB1333@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 24, 2012, at 3:05 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> There was a time when I thought a list called buddha-l would mostly carry messages about Buddhism rather than endlessly tedious screeds based on people's unfounded fears about our nation's universities being taken over by billionaires from overseas. > > We here in the Northeast have already seen it -- it may take awhile to reach your neck of the woods, but it is coming. We'll see. So far there's not much of a Muslim presence where I live. In New Mexico, the most populous religions are Roman Catholicism (26%), evangelical Protestants (25%), unaffiliated (22%) and mainline Protestant (15%). Mormons have 3%, Jews 2%, and Buddhists 2%. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Scientologists and followers of native religions all together make up less than 2% of New Mexico's population. More than 50% of the people who live in this state were born here. The number of people who have migrated here from outside the USA makes up only 17% of the population, the vast majority of them being from Spanish-speaking countries in the Americas. To ask me to wring my hands about the imminent Muslim threat in my part of the country is approximately equivalent to my asking you to wring your hands about the huge stockpile of nuclear weapons and weapon-grade anthrax in Cambridge, MA. The stockpile of nuclear weapons and biological and chemical weapons in New Mexico concerns me, as does the spill of several million gallons of jet fuel from a local USAF base into the New Mexican aquifer, as does fracking, because that is taking place where I live and is having deleterious effects on people, especially poor people, who live in this area. Being concerned about a clear and present danger seems a better use of my time and energy than worrying about something that really is not a factor in life here. > As usual, you pretend something doesn't exist by pretending it is right wing paranoia. That Islam barely exists where I live is not something I am pretending. The 2010 census bears it out. That Muslims are found elsewhere, I fully acknowledge. I've lived in such places. That I pretend Muslims do not exist elsewhere is a fantasy that you harbor for reasons I do not understand. That I deny that there are any potentially dangerous fanatics in the world is a fiction of your creation. All I know is that you have an exceedingly poor knowledge about what goes on in my head and my heart. You might consider sticking to what you know. > I guess that sort of strategy is necessary to maintain the illusions... Bad guess. > What are you doing about Islamic antisemitism (promoted and proliferated by state media throughout the muslim world)? About the same that I do about anti-Muslim bias when it manifests in Jewish people and evangelical Christians. Prejudice is best countered by pointing out the absence of vy?pti between the s?dhyadharma and the s?dhanadharma. > Let me repeat this question: > Why label anyone willing to acknowledge that Islam has a long violent streak as Islamophobes? That is a question best addressed to someone who labels *anyone* willing to acknowledge that Muslims have violence in their history an Islamophobe. That is not something I have ever done. I have entertained the possibility that *some* people are Islamophobes, particularly those who focus their attention almost entirely on Muslim violence and ignore the violence of Israelis, Americans and Europeans. Ever tallied up the number of foreign nations the USA has bombed since 1930? How does that compare with the number of countries Norway, Myanmar, Indonesia, Afghanistan, or Iran have bombed during that same period? Any vy?pti to be found as you examine those numbers? > Now we know the answer. I don't know who "we" are. I think it is mostly you who have imagined a solution to a problem of your own invention. Knowledge has not yet entered the picture. Fantasy and obsession are in evidence in your characterizations of my beliefs and practices, but no knowledge. Richard Hayes From ugg-5 at spro.net Sat Sep 29 09:47:18 2012 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:47:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002001cd9e59$b56cb250$204616f0$@spro.net> (I changed my email address to see if my posts to this list will then appear in my inbox. If not, no biggie. This address I can put in my server's whitelist, which only functions for addresses coming to their server addresses.) Richard said, "I don't think John Wesley Powell ever could have envisioned that the Grand Canyon would become a backdrop for an advertisement for designer jeans." I think it's fair to say that our entire culture, so to speak, is now a backdrop for designer jeans. Joanna From ugg-5 at spro.net Sat Sep 29 10:38:47 2012 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:38:47 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <002001cd9e59$b56cb250$204616f0$@spro.net> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <002001cd9e59$b56cb250$204616f0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <002101cd9e60$e63c6860$b2b53920$@spro.net> Yay--it worked. JK ------------------- On Behalf Of Jo Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 9:47 AM (I changed my email address to see if my posts to this list will then appear in my inbox. If not, no biggie. This address I can put in my server's whitelist, which only functions for addresses coming to their server addresses.) Richard said, "I don't think John Wesley Powell ever could have envisioned that the Grand Canyon would become a backdrop for an advertisement for designer jeans." I think it's fair to say that our entire culture, so to speak, is now a backdrop for designer jeans. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From drbob at comcast.net Sat Sep 29 21:26:35 2012 From: drbob at comcast.net (bob Woolery) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:26:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu><1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop><000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> Nothing new. My father worked at GC in the mid '30s. The "drunken" ranch hand cavorting on a promontory over a mile drop for the enjoyment of tourists was a daily event. bob Woolery, DC stateoftheartchiro.com 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 (707) 557-5471 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 6:40 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:01 , jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> wrote: > A point to note about both authors on these two links is that neither one of them deign to mention that there is a 'Buddha Cloister' also in the Grand Canyon. That's interesting. I had never realized that before. That's a location that somehow escaped my attention. The first time I walked across the Grand Canyon, I was ten years old, and I did it twice more as a young adult. All three times I was with my dad, who pointed out all main the geological features. I just remember him saying that the formations of the Grand Canyon so impressed John Wesley Powell that he named them after Hindu deities. He also said that Powell lost a boat and lots of supplies and I think a few men in a canyon that he then named Dirty Devil Canyon. Some of his men were spooked by the name and Powell made up for his reference to the devil by naming the next place he saw Bright Angel. I have no idea where my dad picked up these stories, but I do know he read all the journals of John Wesley Powell and was fascinated by the early explorations of the Grand Canyon, so he may have gotten the stories from those writings. Last time I went to the Grand Canyon, I saw all those plaques placed there by evangelical Christians, and I was so horrified that I almost forgot to look at the beautiful scene before me. I was also depressed by how the Grand Canyon is being loved to death. Trails on which one used to encounter no more than half a dozen people in a day now have thousands of people running around on them, and stepping off them to get spectacular photos. Not long after I saw the depressing commentary about Noah's ark, I saw a model or movie star out doing poses on a promontory while a gaggle of photographers too photos of her. I don't think John Wesley Powell ever could have envisioned that the Grand Canyon would become a backdrop for an advertisement for designer jeans. Richard Hayes _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Sat Sep 29 22:41:27 2012 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:41:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu><1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop><000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> Message-ID: <000501cd9ec5$db317590$919460b0$@spro.net> Heh! I visited the GC once at age 18, with Mom, Dad, and sister. My maternal aunt was working for the Red Cross Disaster service at Window Rock, helping the Navajo feed sheep that had been snowed in over the previous winter. I guess the RC was working on other stuff there too because we visited the GC in summer, and she joined us. We were on the north rim amid the Kaibab Forest. It was so beautiful--this was 1948. Stayed in the grand old hotel built there (I think) by the RR--heard they tore it down and built another one some years ago. Standing on some of those rims must be sort of like being in space--everything is so vast and overwhelming, an experience where the buzz word awesome really fits. I feel really sorry about the Christian plaques stuck around the place. They weren't there in the forties. After all, there aren't any plaques (are there?) attached to the Vishnu Buddha and Brahma towers, or those dedicated to Manu, Kongfutze, et al! The record seems to be that it was a guy named Dutton who applied the exotic names, not Powell...but maybe that's an occluded record. Cheers Joanna ------------------------------------ On Behalf Of bob Woolery Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 9:27 PM Nothing new. My father worked at GC in the mid '30s. The "drunken" ranch hand cavorting on a promontory over a mile drop for the enjoyment of tourists was a daily event. bob Woolery, DC stateoftheartchiro.com 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 (707) 557-5471 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 6:40 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:01 , jo <05jkirk at gmail.com> wrote: > A point to note about both authors on these two links is that neither > one of them deign to mention that there is a 'Buddha Cloister' also in the Grand Canyon. That's interesting. I had never realized that before. That's a location that somehow escaped my attention. The first time I walked across the Grand Canyon, I was ten years old, and I did it twice more as a young adult. All three times I was with my dad, who pointed out all main the geological features. I just remember him saying that the formations of the Grand Canyon so impressed John Wesley Powell that he named them after Hindu deities. He also said that Powell lost a boat and lots of supplies and I think a few men in a canyon that he then named Dirty Devil Canyon. Some of his men were spooked by the name and Powell made up for his reference to the devil by naming the next place he saw Bright Angel. I have no idea where my dad picked up these stories, but I do know he read all the journals of John Wesley Powell and was fascinated by the early explorations of the Grand Canyon, so he may have gotten the stories from those writings. Last time I went to the Grand Canyon, I saw all those plaques placed there by evangelical Christians, and I was so horrified that I almost forgot to look at the beautiful scene before me. I was also depressed by how the Grand Canyon is being loved to death. Trails on which one used to encounter no more than half a dozen people in a day now have thousands of people running around on them, and stepping off them to get spectacular photos. Not long after I saw the depressing commentary about Noah's ark, I saw a model or movie star out doing poses on a promontory while a gaggle of photographers too photos of her. I don't think John Wesley Powell ever could have envisioned that the Grand Canyon would become a backdrop for an advertisement for designer jeans. Richard Hayes _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Sep 29 23:58:59 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:58:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <000501cd9ec5$db317590$919460b0$@spro.net> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> <000501cd9ec5$db317590$919460b0$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2012, at 10:41 PM, "Jo" wrote: > The record seems to be that it was a guy named Dutton who applied the exotic > names, not Powell...but maybe that's an occluded record. Clarence Dutton was a geologist who accompanied Powell in 1875 on surveys of the Rocky Mountains and plateau country of Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona. He worked in the Grand Canyon in 1882, some thirteen years after Powell visited it. I was misinformed about Powell having named the features of the Grand Canyon named after Brahma, Vishnu and Buddha. Powell named quite a few features of the Grand Canyon, but apparently not the exotic ones that offend today's Christians so much. The Vishnu schist, for example, was named by Charles Walcott in the 1880s and the Brahma schist was named by Campbell and Maxon, as was probably the Rama schist. But those names came later and were probably named after canyons, spires and buttes named by Dutton. It was Dutton who named Buddha Temple and Vishnu Temple. We should make those early geologists patron saints of buddha-l. And the Zionists in our midst will surely admire Dutton's seminal work in what eventually became Zion and Bryce national parks in Utah, although Zion did not acquire its present name until long after Dutton worked there. He would probably have known it by its original name, Mukuntuweap. Richard From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 07:21:35 2012 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 07:21:35 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> Message-ID: <42861E96-CA26-4C97-96AF-99D3967F107E@gmail.com> On Sep 29, 2012, at 9:26 PM, "bob Woolery" wrote: > My father worked at GC in the mid '30s. The "drunken" ranch > hand cavorting on a promontory over a mile drop for the enjoyment of > tourists was a daily event. Interesting. Two of my cousins were "dude wranglers" at Mesa Verde National Park in the 1960s. They would drum up business for day-long horse trips by going to the campfire talks in the evenings. They would race their horses into the circle pretending to be drunk and disorderly and do all kinds of crazy stunts on their horses. It worked. People seemed thrilled at the prospect of taking a long horse ride on precipitous mesa trails led by a whiskey-soaked cowboy. It's my impression that the Buddha might not have approved of America's fascination with cowboys who break the fifth precept. But is there any other kind of cowpoke? Richard From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Sep 30 08:57:22 2012 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 08:57:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> <000501cd9ec5$db317590$919460b0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <001b01cd9f1b$e5f05a40$b1d10ec0$@spro.net> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 11:59 PM On Sep 29, 2012, at 10:41 PM, "Jo" wrote: > The record seems to be that it was a guy named Dutton who applied the > exotic names, not Powell...but maybe that's an occluded record. Clarence Dutton was a geologist who accompanied Powell in 1875 on surveys of the Rocky Mountains and plateau country of Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona. He worked in the Grand Canyon in 1882, some thirteen years after Powell visited it. I was misinformed about Powell having named the features of the Grand Canyon named after Brahma, Vishnu and Buddha. Powell named quite a few features of the Grand Canyon, but apparently not the exotic ones that offend today's Christians so much. The Vishnu schist, for example, was named by Charles Walcott in the 1880s and the Brahma schist was named by Campbell and Maxon, as was probably the Rama schist. But those names came later and were probably named after canyons, spires and buttes named by Dutton. It was Dutton who named Buddha Temple and Vishnu Temple. We should make those early geologists patron saints of buddha-l. And the Zionists in our midst will surely admire Dutton's seminal work in what eventually became Zion and Bryce national parks in Utah, although Zion did not acquire its present name until long after Dutton worked there. He would probably have known it by its original name, Mukuntuweap. Richard _______________________________________________ Thanks for the record details. I also noticed from one of the GC name lists that there are many more American Indian language names than otherwise. Lots of them. That's reassuring since the native Indians were there first. Thinking of place names in the Pali texts, I wonder if any of them acquired names reflecting the Buddha's concerns. "Vulture Peak's" name was a popular local term wasn't it? Joanna Joanna From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Sep 30 08:59:36 2012 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 08:59:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <42861E96-CA26-4C97-96AF-99D3967F107E@gmail.com> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> <42861E96-CA26-4C97-96AF-99D3967F107E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01cd9f1c$3598f610$a0cae230$@spro.net> On Sep 29, 2012, at 9:26 PM, "bob Woolery" wrote: > My father worked at GC in the mid '30s. The "drunken" ranch hand > cavorting on a promontory over a mile drop for the enjoyment of > tourists was a daily event. Interesting. Two of my cousins were "dude wranglers" at Mesa Verde National Park in the 1960s. They would drum up business for day-long horse trips by going to the campfire talks in the evenings. They would race their horses into the circle pretending to be drunk and disorderly and do all kinds of crazy stunts on their horses. It worked. People seemed thrilled at the prospect of taking a long horse ride on precipitous mesa trails led by a whiskey-soaked cowboy. It's my impression that the Buddha might not have approved of America's fascination with cowboys who break the fifth precept. But is there any other kind of cowpoke? Richard _______________________________________________ Yes there is or was, but he wasn't Buddhist: Krishna of the gopis and gopas. Those terms are often translated cowgirls and cowboys. Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Sep 30 10:22:59 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:22:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist stupa to be moved from NM Petroglyph Park In-Reply-To: <001c01cd9f1c$3598f610$a0cae230$@spro.net> References: <0DCBDA8D-DA73-4564-A5E8-28C5218F879C@unm.edu> <1348606503.12621.41.camel@rhayes-desktop> <000601cd9c08$9c77f0f0$d567d2d0$@gmail.com> <7B18A471-F6FF-4CA3-A7C9-A1540214ADD9@unm.edu> <9BF6D6232E74481DBCA925A25A97597E@Dude> <42861E96-CA26-4C97-96AF-99D3967F107E@gmail.com> <001c01cd9f1c$3598f610$a0cae230$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2012, at 8:59 AM, "Jo" wrote in response to my facetious question whether there is any kind of cowpoke other than the drunken variety: > Yes there is or was, but he wasn't Buddhist: Krishna of the gopis and gopas. Those terms are often translated cowgirls and cowboys. According to some later texts, the Buddha's wife was named Gop?. And of course his clan name was Gotama, which also has bovine associations. When my wife got involved in Ved?nta in her teenage years, her swami named her Gop? and told her that was the Buddha's wife's name. In Ved?nta circles ma femme is called Gop? to this very day. For reasons I have not been able to learn, the Ved?nta crowd does not call me by the name of Gop?'s husband. Seems unfair somehow. Still plain old Richard From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 12:19:11 2012 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:19:11 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] The Buddha's wife Message-ID: <7C1CC449-AB56-443A-BC12-9863A2DE3A90@gmail.com> http://santifm.org/santipada/2010/w9/ This is an interesting blog posting by Bhikkhu Sujato that deals with, among other things, the mystery of the names given in various texts to the Buddha's wife. Say, maybe the papyrus making all the news these days that refers to the wife of Jesus will reveal that his better half was the reincarnation of Gotama's better half. That could lead to some interesting interfaith dialogue. Richard