[Buddha-l] Re: Texas liberals (death penalty)

[Stefan Detrez]

2005/6/30, Catalina Castell-du Payrat <c_castell at yahoo.com>: 
> 
> Stefan Detrez wrote:
>   <I'm not saying every murderer should get the death penalty, but I say 
> that (honest and integer) governments should have the right to kill persons 
> that disrupt social cohesion or cause mass suffering by murder (a 
> act-consequentialist ethic seems in place here). >
>  I do not agree with that. Honest and integer governments?......just name 
> one......To me a government or a person that can justifie "killing" and do 
> it, is a murderer as well. 
> 
 That makes no sense. Justifying an operation doesn't make you a surgeon, by 
analogy. Some governments have a good reputation. It's a bit of a populist 
assumption that politicians only want the bad. The Swiss governement, for 
instance. If you read the Asokavadana (tr. John Strong), you'll notice 
Asoka's punishments were mind-boggling: cooking someone in hot oil, for 
instance (as in the Laws of Manu, pouring hot oil in Dasya's mouths). Such 
punishments were, arguably, common. The Buddha was a pacifist influence 
going counter to such punishments, but he never achieved the goal of having 
no death penalties altogether. I wonder what the vinaya says on the issue of 
the death penalty - as far as we take its answer as a guiding line for our 
discussion. Murderers (Angulimala) were eventually accepted in the sangha, 
to avoid punishment or to lead the holy life or both.
 
>  I remember reading stories about bhikkus killing somebody to defend some 
> disciples of being killed, I thought at the time that this is a choice, of 
> the person involved at the particular situation. To make assasination 
> "legal" is another subjet......I do not have a solution for serial killers, 
> etc, people really mad or so, but I guess that you start justifying those 
> "legal killings" in "some cases" and then you finish killing a lot of people 
> that are just people or even innocents.
>  
 Killing innocents musn't be a side effect. A thorough investigation should 
lead to a verdict. I count on the integrity and honesty of the courts to 
decide on the possible /implementation/ of the death penalty. 

 In your statement, does it means that this would include to be able to kill 
> governments that "disrupt social cohesion or cause mass suffering by murder" 
> ?
>  
 To kill a whole government is no good choice. It's most of the time the 
person either concocting malicious deeds or the person carrying them out. As 
I stated, if someone would have killed Hitler in his early years, or Stalin 
or Pol Pot, I think the killer would do the world a favor and would, in 
consequence, create favorable conditions for social cohesion and 
development. Such person would generally considered a hero, depending on 
which side you are. Such case should not be given the death penalty as the 
results of such death would be beneficial for the wellness of a country. You 
can ask yourself the question what would happen if somebody would have shot 
Rumsfeld before he decided to push through his plans for an invasion in 
Iraq. Maybe there'd be no war, or maybe someone else would do the job. Who 
knows?
 Don't get me wrong: I'm not justifying killing any person which is regarded 
'bad', but some extreme cases require a different reasoning. Such cases 
would be supererogatory and would/should not be judged by conventional 
standards. Conventional standards would in such cases lead to discrimination 
of the benevolent and sanctifying of the malevolent.
 Go back into time. Nobody cared when Ceauscescu was shot - no Human Rights 
Organisation stood up for a fair trial or protested and all, because his 
case was so obvious that only some die hard deontologists would plead for a 
life sentence, which -in case of dictators-, generally means being 
restricted to live in a big house with good foods and excellent medicare. 
For that matter, the future will show in what 'prison' former Iraqi 
president Hussein will end up.
 Stefan
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