[Buddha-l] What is enlightenment?

SJZiobro at cs.com SJZiobro at cs.com
Wed May 11 14:08:18 MDT 2005

Michel Clasquin <clasqm at mweb.co.za> wrote:

>Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote:
>> Maybe.  What would you make of Emile LaSalle and other Catholics who have
>> experientially verified for themselves that there are mental states their
>> Buddhist teachers have termed "delusion" and "enlightenment"?
>Precisely that: "for themselves". The question is, have they verified it 
>for you?

The point was, in response to Jim Peavlers contention that because 
'neither "delusion" nor "enlightenment" can be experientially
demonstrated to a non-professing observer it is difficult to derive
from induction'.  But we have counter examples where non-adherents of a religion (in this instance Zen Buddhism) do and can verify for themselves, experiences, mind states, whatever, that adherents of that religion teach as true.  So, I judge that Jim's statement as given does not answer to the matter.  Now Jim seems to think that they accomplished what they did because of some preconceived notions and desires they had.  I think he is evading the point and changing ground, but that can wait.  I'd like to meet with an orange elephant this evening.  I'll let you know if I actually meet one.

Stan Ziobro  

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