[Buddha-l] Re: H.H. The Dalai Lama vs Geshe Michael Roach

[curt]

I have always heard that the whole raison d'etre for the Gelugpa order 
("the virtuous ones") was precisely that those other orders weren't 
taking their vows seriously enough - at least from the perspective of 
conventional morality as interpreted by the Mongolians (who, again 
according to the tales I've been told, were the ones behind the creation 
of the Gelugpa order).

In fact, I think one can go much further and say that as long as there 
has been Tantra there has been a tendency for some Tantrics to behave in 
a way that (at the very least) gives the appearance that they are 
flaunting conventional interpretations of moral "precepts" (including 
monastic vows). And even without "Tantrism" Buddhism has a pretty strong 
inherent tendency toward antinomianism. The point of these last two 
observations is not to excuse anyone's behavior, but only to point out 
that the phenomenon of "Buddhist teachers who [appear to] behave badly" 
should not be attributed to any specific evil influence that is unique 
to either "the west" or to "these modern times". And that, in turn, is 
just a general point that I want to make, and not really a critique of 
what Jim has said here.

- Curt

Blumenthal, James wrote:
>
> Thomas Fink wrote:
>
> >In Tibetan Buddhism there is only one lineage who takes the celibacy
> >vow seriously. That are the Gelugpas.
>
> Actually, every Tibetan Buddhist lineage takes vows of celibacy 
> seriously.  Some lineages have more lay lamas than others.  Some place 
> more of an emphasis on the importance of monasticism. But none 
> consider taking monastic vows such as celibacy, then breaking them a 
> non-serious offense. A monk, by definition, holds a vow of celibacy.  
> There are lay teachers in many Buddhist traditions.  There are 
> non-celibate Buddhist priests in Japan, but they are not monks. If 
> Michael Roach had given back his vows and ceased to identify as a 
> monk, I think a lot of the problem regarding his sexual relations 
> would not have arisen.
>
> Claims about being an 8th ground bodhisattva may have been another matter.
>
> Jim Blumenthal
>
>
> James Blumenthal
> Department of Philosophy
> Oregon State University
> 102-A Hovland Hall
> Corvallis, OR 97331
>
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