[Buddha-l] Re: rebirth

[ronleifer at aol.com]

A few further thoughts on rebirth:

  When I first went to see Khenpo Khartar Rinpoche, the first thing he
  said to me is
 "Whether you believe it or not, there is rebirth.
 Otherwise you could do anything you want with impunity."

Of course, Rinpoche was aware that one could be punished for breaking 
the law.
To suggest he was mistaken, is to misunderstand what he was saying.
He was not implying that if one didn't believe in rebirth one could get 
away with crimes.
He was talking about suffering and the release from suffering.

He was teaching the Four Thoughts That Turn the Mind Inward" -- The 
Vajrayana Preliminaries
Life is precious;
phenomena, including you, are impermanent; you will die;
samsara is unsatisfactory;
what you do matters and time is of the essence;
therefore, turn your mind inward to the causes of the suffering you 
impose on yourself and others.


Years later, when I was a student at Namgyal Monastery I was talking 
about rebirth with the Geshe and a few monks.
I said I did not believe in rebirth
They were surprised and asked me why I didn't believe
I told them that Buddha taught that, if we respect him we should not 
obsequiously believe what he says
We should rely on our own experience
I told them that I had no experience of rebirth
I had no memory of previous lives
I was not convinced by the testimony of others.
I was not convinced by logical arguments
Therefore, I did not believe in rebirth
The Geshe smiled and said: "That's right. That's what the Buddha said. 
Even not believing in rebirth
You are a follower of Buddha."

Years earlier, I was talking about reincarnation with Agehananda 
Bharati.
He said that the idea of reincarnation served the function of the 
continuity of the lineages
The student becomes a teacher, and when he dies,
his students teach what he taught, and when they die, etc.
If the self both exists and does not exist
and neither exists nor does not exist
Then who is reborn?
The orthodox teaching, as I understand it
Is that our karma survives the death of the body
and is "reincarnated" i.e., re experienced by the next generation.

In this sense I do believe in rebirth.
The next generation will suffer or benefit by what our generation does 
today.

That is the gift and the curse of karma and rebirth

Ron Leifer









This puzzles me. This seems to contradict _pratityasamutpada_.  It 
isn't
restricted just to some possible future life.

It is clear that every culture that does NOT have rebirth as a part of
its cultural baggage will quite happily provide consequences when you
rob, steal, or kill or act in ways which are anti-social.
When you act out of ignorance, anger, or ego-centeredness, there seem 
to
be consequences, many of them societal.
There may be psychological consequences to hatred, anger, envy, and
confusion.

I cannot help but conclude that Khenpo Khartar Rinpoche was mistaken, 
or
perhaps was providing a teaching aimed at just one particular person.



 =======
  Or, could the Rinpoche be referring to rebirth as being reborn moment 
to moment as Buddhadasa Bhikkhu saw it. What happens after death could 
be just a continuation of this moment to moment rebirth or it could be 
a fairy tale without any evidence to substantiate it.
  
 Jack

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