[Buddha-l] Tortoise mind?

[jkirk]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn at ntlworld.com>
To: "Buddhist discussion forum" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>



> Joanna,
>
>>When one is able to withdraw his senses from their objects under any
>>circumstance, just as a tortoise withdraws its limbs into the shell - his
>>wisdom is firmly established.
>>
>>Bhagavad gita, 2.58.
>>-------
>>I suspect there are similar adages in the Pali canon to this one; or are 
>>there?
>
> There are various references to tortoises and turtles in the Pali texts, 
> including several Jaatakas. I suppose that the closest to this Giitaa 
> passage would be at S IV 177ff. - the Kumbhopamasutta. But here it is used 
> to illustrate guarding the sense doors. I don't think this involves trying 
> to suppress the senses. It is spelt out that when one sees a visible 
> object with the eye, one should not grasp at either the general appearance 
> or at details. Similarly for each of the other five senses. There is no 
> suggestion that one should try to suppress the operation of the senses 
> altogether.
>
>>I wonder how one can accomplish withdrawing one's senses from objects.
>>If one holds to the idea of the inseparableness of mind and body, 
>>considering these to be aspects of one biological process, it wouldn't 
>>seem possible as stated in this adage from the Gita. Would it not be more 
>>helpful to observe what happens in the thought process when one's senses 
>>apprehend this or that object?  Or would this claimed withdrawal be an 
>>aspect of concentration instead of insight meditation?
>
> I can't speak for the Giitaa which I have not studied much. But as regards 
> Buddhism I don't see a problem. There are certainly sleep states with 
> little or no sensory awareness. I suppose one could suggest that due to 
> the inseparableness of mind and body that is impossible, but it doesn't 
> seem a very plausible position.
>
> There may be states of concentration without mindfulness, but this would 
> not be what is meant by jhaana in the Buddhist texts. Rather that would 
> involve states of peacefulness and increasing clarity and awareness. So if 
> there are periods when the senses operate minimally or not at all, one 
> should emerge from that state with a much more subtle mental awareness, 
> much better able to observe ordinary, thought processes. So I see each as 
> helpful to the other.
>
> Perhaps I should add that I do not believe you could develop jhaana by 
> trying to suppress the senses or by trying to stop thinking. Those things 
> may happen at times, but only as a natural by-product of a process of 
> mental development.
>
>>Would this practice be related to preparing for warfare (as in the 
>>Mahabharata, where we find the Gita, and with Krishna advocating that 
>>kshatriyas must observe their warrior dharma, etc.).
>>
>>The simile of the tortoise hints at maintaining a shell-like armor around 
>>one's persona, usually dubbed a socially dysfunctional defensive attitude 
>>by psychologists.
>
> I think one would have to look at particular states.
>
> Or, perhaps Buddhism is socially dysfunctional :-)
>
> Lance Cousins
======================================
Thanks Lance----your reply clarifies a lot and it's reassuring as well.

As for your last point, No, I actually consider the message of Krishna to 
the kshatriyas (the Mahabharata warriors), not Buddhism, to be socially 
dysfunctional, except perhaps in the instance of Zen in Japan during 
WW2--see Victoria's book.

The Gita is a part of that epical whole, teaching a method and a rationale 
of performing one's social dharma without concern for results (consequences, 
aka 'fruit') one way or the other.  That message is still embedded in our 
own military and its philosophy--soldiers taught to do their duty 
regardless, even if it means murdering women and children as part of the 
process of fighting in war.

I recently heard an NPR program (I think it was) that pointed out that 
killing civilians has not always been an acceptable practice in US military 
history, that it got started during WW2 (the fire-bombing of Dresden is a 
sterling case in point). Our warriors who, being mercenaries, could be 
considered analogous to an occupational caste like the kshatriyas, have 
extrapolated this practice since then, in Iraq, for ex. Thus, I expect that 
many of them have tried, if they may not have succeeded, in adopting a 
tortoise position vis a vis what they are commanded to do, withdrawing all 
senses from contact with the object  but for those senses needed to sight 
down a gun barrel and do the job.

Thus, seems to me that the advice about withdrawing one's senses from 
objects, even if possible, doesn't necessarily lead to wisdom. Instead, it 
might more readily lead to extreme dukkha.

Best, Joanna