[Buddha-l] A candid question

[jkirk]

Joy, you wrote:
>...but the legend seems to be pretty clear about the outcome of the 
>Buddha's practice, hadn't he stopped this "practice".  It seems to me that 
>what the Buddha was trying to "practice" was simply to fast to death."<

Well, this outcome is not at all obvious to me. Isn't the generally accepted 
rendering of this episode that the Buddha was trying to practice austerities 
(e.g. starvation of the senses)  for the sake of moksha, as at that time he 
was practicing as an ascetic Hindu along with 5 other Hindu ascetics. As he 
finally realised that he was close to death, but no closer to bodhi (a point 
against the idea that he initially tried 'fasting unto death'), he resolved 
to give up this starvation practice, to the consternation of his fellow 
ascetics; (but who also came around to his viewpoint later). As I understood 
it, this episode was the start of his teaching of the middle way.
If I got this wrong, listmembers please let me know.
Joanna
=================================================


Dear friends,

If I interpret it reasonably well, the Paramahamsa-Parivrajaka Upanishad 
seems to say that the renunciation status of a Parahamsa monk is reserved 
for Brahmins. To those who are not entitled to be a Parahamsa monk, the 
upanishad generously offers to seek liberation "in the path of the brave (by 
courting death in battle field) or fast (unto death as a discipline), or 
enter into water (to rise no more) or enter fire or undertake the great 
journey (in which they collapse by exhaustion)" in other words to get 
killed, drowned, burnt or to march oneself to death (marche et crève). I 
don't know from when dates this upanishad, but its lack of concessions makes 
me think that at least the idea behind it must date from before the time 
Buddhism and Jainism became successful and and thereby threatening (although 
the battle field idea sounds pretty Bhagavatgitaish to me). I don't know 
where exactly one can find information about the Buddha's near death through 
starvation and what would be!
  its approximate dates, but the legend seems to be pretty clear about the 
outcome of the Buddha's practice, hadn't he stopped this "practice".  It 
seems to me that what the Buddha was trying to "practice" was simply to fast 
to death. If the Buddha weren't a man but a movement, I would say that an 
important motivation of that movement was to give access to more inspiring 
paths of liberation to all varnas, but particularly Kshatriyas, and at 
earlier stages of life. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Buddhism was 
initially a soft reformist movement within Brahmanism, that, confronted with 
the usual reception given to "heretics", grew harder in time. Any evidence 
for any of this somewhere?

Joy

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