[Buddha-l] [Fwd: [skepnet] Documentaire: Jesus Camp (2006)]

[Erik Hoogcarspel]

Joy,
>     
>   
>> I agree with you here, I think it was D¨¹rkheim who first articulated the  
>> relation between tribal consciousness and religion. I wonder if that can  
>> be an excuse, several mild and respectable rituals have cruel and  
>> primitive backgrounds, but that doesn't give the people the right to  
>> evoke the meanings of yesteryear. 
>>     
>
> For what reason wouldn't they have "the right"? I don't get you here. Why would they not have the right to even exploit them for more personal agendas? In love, war and religion, all is fair.
>   
Certainly not! In love and war you can get away with a lot, but not with 
everything, think of Oedipus and Mladic. In religion you need 
recognition and respectability, so you have to watch your step. So if 
you marry four wives because it's you're religion, it's not legal and 
not fair in our culture and you go to jail. I'm not saying it's never 
and nowhere fair and legal, because we both know that's not true. Legal 
and fair are cultural concepts and depend on pragamtic and historical 
conditions. I have no clue whatsoever about what would *universally *be 
fair and legal.
> Because as for me personally, if I am asked to particpate at a ritual, I want to know why I am doing the ritual and what I am exactly doing. And then I will perhaps want to look at what the origin of that ritual is. If I am asked to participate in offerings of red bali, then it is fair enough to evoke the fact that they replace animal sacrifices. And why would I have not the right to look into the question to whom I make them, why I, a Westerner, make them, what is the relation between those offerings, me and my practice of Buddhism.     
>   
If offering the red bali used to be the feast after the hunting party 
but now is felt to be the expression of bodhicitta by all participants, 
what would be the *real *meaning? I would say bodhicitta, but if you 
feel differently, I guess it is so from your point of view. If you 
disagree about the meaning you dissociate yourself from the language 
community.
>
>
> I am not a big fan of rituals, for me they are all forms of suggestion and mass suggestion. They may create a temporary atmosphere, feeling, that may be shared and create a certain harmony within a group and appease anguish in the individuals of that group. The motivations for celebrating rituals are various and may inlcude resentment and spite, why not? Once again, for me there is no natural link between religion, rituals and spiritual exercices. That link may be artificially established and then not respected by some, sure. Others may then consider they didn't have the right and that they did break the pact, but for me that link has never really existed.    
I don't think there ever has been a religion or a society for that 
matter without rituals. It's like a town without traffic signs. But 
maybe such a thing is possible and will ever exist somewhere.
>    
>   
>>
>> Good point, Tibetans could object that they don't say that they're  
>> chosen, but that they merely have an excellent opportunity to achieve  
>> something. I noticed the Shiv Sen atmosphere in the Kalacakra too, do  
>> you know people who take it litterally and sort of prepare themselves  
>> for war? 
>>     
>
> Yes, I remember that during the teachings preparing the initiation, it was pointed out that participating in a Kalacakra Tantra initiation would lead to a rebirth under the reign of a certain cakravartin who would fight and win the final battle (CS Lewis style) against the barbarians. Many people present had already specific ideas about who those barbarians might be.
>
>   
It's clear that the muslims were meant, they formed a massive threat to 
buddhists and hindus at the time the K.T. was composed.
> There was another thing I wanted to point out in this documentary. Michael Strickmann (Mantras et Mandarins) mentions the use in Buddhism (by Vajrabodhi and others) of children as mediums between our world and the spirit world. The children undergo a long preparation before entering a trance and giving the required information from the spirit world. The preparation and trances of the children in the documentary reminded me of this.   
I didn't know that but I guess it's just child labour and it should be 
condemned.
I never felt any sympathy for people who believed in or practised 
channelling. And I think the state oracle of Tibet is a ridiculous peace 
of theatre.


Erik


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