[Buddha-l] Re: Greetings from Oviedo

[Benito Carral]

On Monday, October 10, 2005, Joy Vriens wrote:

> [...]  my  case  for a democratic sangha looks pretty
> hopeless

   I  don't  think  so.  I suppose that we will have to
speak  of  Traditional  and  Reform Buddhism in no much
time.


> Which  according  to the AN X69 Kathavatthu Sutta, is
> not really a topic of proper conversation, in that it
> is not talk on modesty.

   I  think  that  the Old Guy's concept of modesty was
something  quite  different. For example, consider this
advice from the _Maha-parinibbana sutta:_

       In   this   case,  Ananda,  the  noble  disciple
       possesses  unwavering  faith in the Buddha thus:
       "The  Blessed  One  is  an  Arahant,  the  Fully
       Enlightened   One,   perfect  in  knowledge  and
       conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world,
       the  paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of
       gods  and  men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed
       One."

> Do  you  really  believe  that  the historical Buddha
> could have spoken like this?

   Yes, I wouldn't expect the Old Guy acted as we think
he should have done it from our world.

> He  started  off  as  a  forest  ascetic  among other
> ascetics.  They  must have called each other friends.
> At  what  point did the Buddha-to be start to have an
> ascendancy over the others?

   When  he  met  his  five  old  ascetic  fellows  and
introduce  himself as the "Full Awakened One." It seems
that  those  five fellows attained full awakening after
listening him - it seems to me a good starting point.

> At  what point did they no longer call him friend and
> started  calling  him Perfect One rather than teacher
> or whatever?

   When he asked them to do so.

> Don't  you  rather think that this is the result of a
> gradual  aggrandizement/divinisation of the Buddha as
> time goes by?

   Not really, but who knows for sure?



> I  find it hard to imagine a Buddha, who comes up out
> of  nothing  stating  he is the Supremely Enlightened
> One  to those who used to know him as an ascetic like
> them, and who all of a sudden has such authority that
> they don't even debate with him.

   The  fact  the  he  had some ascetic friends doesn't
mean  that he was like them. In many groups seems to be
specially  blessed  people. Siddhata was the son of the
monarch, something quite unusual I would say. Surely he
had  an  education  and a demeanour that very few would
also have. And after all, it seems that the Old Guy was
a buddha.

> This  is is 100% speculation and creative thinking on
> my  part,  but  the  fact that Devadatta actually was
> demonized  tells me that he played a rather important
> role before his demonization.

   It  is  quite easy for me to think in Devadatta as a
jealous  cousin.  He  got some political support, but I
don't  think  a  jealous cousin could play an important
role in early Buddhism.


> Prophecies? Do you need better proof for Apocrypha?

   The  Old  Guy  was  also able to recall all his past
lifes.  I  think  that  we want to see in the Old Guy a
westernized  buddha,  but  he  didn't  have  in mind to
fulfil our current expectations of what a buddha should
be.

   Best wishes,

   Beni