[Buddha-l] Pai-chang Huai-hai (was Re: there he goesagain(samharris))

[Joy Vriens]

Hi Vicente,

>yes. Also I agree with both. Suppressing the senses perhaps it would 
>be a way to try of subjugating them, and it was already discarded by 
>Buddha. There is some people who talk about that experience of the stop 
>in meditation.

It is a strawman position attributed to Sravakas both in Mahayana Buddhism. Huai-Hai also pretends the Saravaks fear illusion and enter tranquillity by blinding the mind (Entretiens de Huai-Hai, nr. 35). 

> I don't know what is that, although I'm not an expert 
>meditator. In my case, just I check that when the thoughts are stopped 
>it is because I go into sleep. Although I don't know what happens in 
>other heads.  

What we call "thought" is too vast and vague. For a start we could distinguish between "active" and "passive" thoughts, thoughts in which we engage or are engaged or not.  
 
>I understand the possibility of an stop of thinking in the sense of 
>the end of the process which remains under the illusion of an owner of 
>these thoughts.

I believe the core of any spiritual path is to get rid of the sense of ownership and propriety of any sort. 

> And I think it can be in the line of the Buddha advice 
>about how to practice with our perceived reality: when one see a tree, 
>then one knows that he is seeing a tree. In this way, there are not 
>thoughts regarding objects but just the knowledge of them here and 
>now.

And even if one had thoughts regarding objects, one can know that one is having thoughts regarding objects.

I like Huai-hai's "Seeing is the essence. The essence is not blindness."  (Entretiens de Huai-Hai, nr. 32).

>it is in agreement with those Theravada masters. Although I think 
>there is not a more refreshing reading than these Chinese masters, 
>Pai-Chang, Huang-po, etc.. 
>One can read many things but when one return to these episodes then 
>one can remember quickly the basic thing. Are wonderful. :) 

Yes, very refreshing. A pity that Zen went so terribly wrong afterwards... ;-)

Joy